Tony and Roseanna Erskine tell their stories of working and living in the new town. Tony was a graphic designer employed by the Washington Development Corporation and responsible for some of the new town’s most iconic imagery. His wife, Roseanna, was a teacher and grew up in the Biddick area, and she shares her memories of North Biddick (aka Cook’s) Hall and the Washington Village Forge. Both shared an enthusiasm for folk music, with Tony in a band called The Healeys and both of them running the Black Bush Folk Club in Washington Village, which was a haunt of the young Dave Stewart before he joined The Tourists/Eurythmics. Fascinating stories!
In the recording, Tony mentions the charity for which he regularly fundraises. Further details are available here: www.suzyfund.org
Tony: My name is Tony Erskine and I was graphic designer for Washington Development Corporation from 1968 to 1974. And this is… Roseanna: And I’m Roseanna. I was Roseanna Havelock and I was, I lived in Washington all my life until I was married. I was a teacher and I worked in Felling. Tony: Originally, in 1964, I was at college, in Newcastle, doing a graphic design course. it was in Chillingham Road, it was the old Chillingham Road school. The College now is right in the centre of Newcastle with all the facilities. We were in Chillingham Road and the facilities weren’t great, but we, were very creative and had a great time there, until we graduated in 1967. Roseanna: And I was a young teenager in those days. And, my playground was what became Washington New Town. That’s great. I was at school in Sunderland at the time. Tony: What I could add, in those years I was singing around some of the fool clubs. And a bit later on I joined a friend from college, two friends from college, and we formed a folk band. And we sang in the early ‘seventies in a lot of the clubs around. Roseanna: Washington under the name of the Healeys. Tony: The Healeys. Yes, the Healeys. And we actually ran the folk club in the Black Bush, which is still there. I believe they’ve had one or two folk clubs, but we used to run the folk club. We ran it on a Thursday and at those times it was a very rough house. People got paid on a Thursday and spent it on the booze, unfortunately. And it got in the road of the singing. So we changed the venue, still at the Black Bush to Sunday. And it used to work perfectly. Everybody came along and … really enjoyable years at the Blackbush folk club. Interviewer: That’s fantastic. And, Roseanna, can you remind me which village you’re from originally? Roseanna: Well, I lived in Biddick Villas, which became Columbia Village. Goodness knows why they’re called that because all of the streets around there were Biddick Terrace, this … But then they made that be Columbia. And Biddick Village became the area near near the Victoria Hotel, just north of that, why, I don’t know. But that was Columbia. Tony: And one thing with Roseanna, a very sore point right at the end of her street was, Cook’s Hall. And that was a beautiful house. And that was demolished to make way for one of the villages. Which village would it be? Roseanna: But it was the most beautiful, beautiful manor house. And there were, a family from Joseph Cook’s family who ran, who owned at one time Cook’s Steelworks, which was just a little way away from the Arts Centre, Washington. And the ladies who lived there, there was Miss Enid, Miss Josephine, Miss Mary. You had to call them that. And their nephew, who was Joseph. It was a beautiful place with stables and around there fields and tack rooms. And, he loved horses, but he couldn’t ride. And myself and my brother and a friend could ride, but couldn’t afford a horse. So he bought a horse for us. And we chose the horse and everything and we rode for him. And he enjoyed looking after the horse, but he couldn’t ride. So, we cleaned out the stables, which were filthy. And we unveiled these beautiful buildings which had been, full of chickens. And chickens make a lot of dirt, you can imagine. So it was up to the ceiling with chicken dirt. And we shovelled it out one summer holidays, smelling awful, and unveiled these beautiful (like in Beamish) lovely stalls and had the big stables down below with the horse in, And it was great. And also there was a, big shed, like, not a shed. There was outbuildings and there was a double door. And my brother said, what’s behind this double door? And he opened up the double door and there was a. I think it was a 1921 Fiat Torpedo car, which was in immaculate condition, but not quite working. My brother got it working, very obviously, very basic mechanics involved and he got it working. And my mother and my brother used to ride around Washington in this. My mother with a little chiffon scarf around her hat. And, they would go around Washington. It was fabulous. We had such fun. Such fun. Tony: And the other memory about Washington at that period was the slag heap. Everywhere you went in Washington you could see this slag heap. And gradually that was taken down, used in roads, I suppose. But, that was north of Columbia, wasn’t it? Roseanna: That was Concord. Tony: Concord. It’s now Concord. Roseanna: It’s long from where F Pit is. But when the town was designated, in their wisdom, they thought that this lovely hall that I was talking about should be pulled down. And so the staircase (it was beautiful). The staircase was shipped off to America. they had beautiful tapestries and everything. And the ladies who lived there went to live in a terraced house in Boldon after living in this mansion, which was. It was pretty basic in sight. They lived frugally. Lived very frugally. They always dressed for dinner in their beautiful clothes. And he would dress in his proper evening things. They were very proper. But they looked like tramps when they were out around. They just dressed messily, they used to sell flowers, I think, somewhere. But anyway, when they decided that it was to be demolished and they had to get out, he went down to live in Pickering, I don’t know why Pickering, and we just couldn’t bear to go and watch the bulldozers come in because that had been where we lived, you know, we played there, we’d worked there. Bryan Ferry’s dad was the gardener for them, post retirement from the pits. so he used to be there. yeah. So it was very, very sad for us. And I never understood why they felt the need to demolish that beautiful, beautiful house. I’d love to know because I imagine them making it into something like a country, a country hotel or something, you know. I don’t know why they didn’t. Tony: They probably would these days. Roseanna: Yeah, possibly, possibly. Tony: But then you can’t rebuild it. Interviewer: No. Tony, how was it that you came to the Development Corporation? What was your journey to be a part of that? Tony: Well, I left the College of Art in 1967, and I almost got a job in London. It fell through. So I returned back to Sunderland, and was signed on at the dole. I used to be in the dole queue and thinking, what am I doing in a dole queue after spending so long at college? Anyway, I applied. I wrote a letter to, Edward Thompson’s asking if there are any jobs for a graphic designer. And I was invited in and I was given a job, ah, as graphic designer. and I worked there for six months. Didn’t enjoy it, really, but it was a start. I was on the ladder, of a career, and then six months after that, in March of ’68, the job for Washington came up. I applied for it and got the job. Interviewed by John Bishop. John Bishop, he was a really lovely man, and set to work as a graphic designer for Washington, designing all the brochures, all the exhibition work, and various other jobs that came along. John Bishop did leave, which is so bizarre. I really got on really well with him. but nevertheless, somebody else came in and, had, a really, really creative, successful time in the coming years. Interviewer: That’s great. So what kind of work were you doing? Tony: Well, I used to produce a monthly newsletter, about things that were happening in Washington. I would do, one of the big things was there were about seven industrial estates and I was asked to design monuments, if you like, for each industrial estate. And at the time, I decided to make the theme scientific or medical. And as you go into the estate, I designed the plinths and on them I think in Crowther it was ticker tape. Ticker tape was in use. another one was the shape of waves for Wear industrial estate and various themes like that. And these were one-off jobs, very expensive jobs. And I had to go to an engineer in South Shields, I think it was, and organised these things being built. And at the time these were very expensive but there was a budget for this kind of thing. So I was really able to experiment, excuse me, experiment with all kinds of ideas. And I used to come up with advertising and promotional things. One of the things was in Heathrow airport. I flew down to Heathrow airport and designed a big glass showcase, of the world and obviously England and Washington with the logo of coming out of where Washington is. And call that a new world in the northeast. Tony: I did another big promotion in the central station in Newcastle. A huge jigsaw puzzle with a hand putting in the middle missing piece. The missing piece obviously being Washington. I had to do drawings for The Galleries, the new Galleries with presentation drawings showing how it would look. Artist impressions, if you like. And Instead of the local shops that you get now I had fascias for Simpsons of Piccadilly, And all those very upmarket Companies which obviously didn’t come. I think the biggest one we got was Sainsbury’s. But anyway I used to push the bigger… Just to give a good impression of the Galleries and there was all that kind of. I even designed the I don’t think it’s still there, the big plinth at the end to entrance to the Galleries with silver lettering. Embedded into marble. saying Just The Galleries and Princess Anne. I don’t think. Oh yes. Roseanna: M. Yes. Tony: In the Princess Anne park they wanted three flag poles. I think somebody was visiting, might have been the president, might have been the president visiting Washington. And they designed a French seat around three huge flagpoles which is now it was behind where the swimming baths are. I don’t know if it’s still there but I designed So there. I designed everything from leaflets up to plinths for industrial estates up to presentation drawings of the Galleries. It was such a Variety of work that I did. And I was working with a very, very young staff and Where they wanted ideas and I just had a great seven or eight years just producing this lovely work. Creative work for A great organisation. Interviewer: It’s brilliant. So were you given a lot of free rein to come up with ideas or did they give you guidelines? Tony: No, I was given – I’d obviously get a brief and then I’d have to go away and come up with ideas and present them to the head, Mr Holley. And then from then we discuss changes and I’d go back with the finished things like in the exhibition you might see some original drawings of the plinths for the industrial estates. There’s the original drawings which sadly have faded. But I think the ones that are presented are preserved much better. And they’re the ones that would be presented. They’d get the rubber stamp and they’d go into production and as far as I could, some of them I couldn’t liaise with the people who were making these things. But a lot of the engineering work I just gave them the idea and they’d come back with drawings and I’d just have to alter them or just give them the go-ahead. But yes, given a free rein generally. Sometimes I was asked to do a specific thing but generally I had very much free rein to come up with the ideas. Interviewer: Strikes me that there was quite a budget attached to this kind of stuff? Tony: Yeah, in those days I’m sure somebody had his hand on the till, as it were. But often we’d come up with ideas and the money would be found. There must have been a big budget for all these things. They had to because they were promoting the new town. They were trying to bring in industries. So they had to be really upmarket and there was a budget for that. I never came across a job and said "oh, we can’t afford it". Came up with the idea, like it, into production – it was as quick as that – was lovely. It was great. I left Washington in the year we got married, so 1975. Roseanna: We met because my brother and Tony went to art college together. And so I was 14. Tony went to art college when he was only 16. Well, he’d just turned 17 as he went. And I just met him through my brother. So that was it. I was 14. But then we lived a little separately and then I went to college and then we, we got property together in ’69. ’68. Tony: ’68, yeah. We both ran the folk club and went off to various dances and all the discos and just, just got to know each other really. Roseanna: It happens. But yeah, that was a long time. Tony: And one day, Roseanna said, "shouldn’t we get married?" Shouldn’t we get married? And I said something like "well, who would marry us?" Roseanna: "Who’d have us?" Tony: Yeah, who would have us? But anyway, that was, that was, in ’75 I’d just left. I left in. Roseanna: You left early in ’74. Tony: And October ’75 we got married. Interviewer: So, you must have still been living in Washington while all these changes were going on. What was it like? Roseanna: It was strange. I mean, luckily for me, I was in Biddick Villas. And that area where I lived didn’t actually change. Apart from the losing the lovely fields top of the street and losing the gorgeous Cook’s Hall, my area didn’t change. I’d gone to school in St. Joseph’s in the village. so all of that route up to school hardly changed. Although, I was gone from there by then. But all I’m saying is my stomping ground didn’t change that much. But the whole thing of the new town, there was a lot of angst about it, really, because people didn’t know what to expect. Washington would have died without it. Washington, you know, it was like, well it was a D village really – it would have become. So it saved Washington, but it changed Washington as well because, Well, just because of all the new people coming in. And originally everyone knew everybody in Washington because it was just a little place, really. and then suddenly all these industries came and all these roads. The roads were just beyond belief. I mean, it’s an excellent road system, but at the outset they had all those ridiculous numbers. You’ve heard about the numbers. And no one knew. I mean, I know I was in district number seven. Why? I don’t know. But my brother, who’d moved away, came back home, ended up on the Highway and didn’t know how to get home. So he actually had to get out of his car to look to see a landmark. And he saw a landmark, and then he knew kind of which areas. It’s just ridiculous. Ridiculous. But having said that, we were just saying the other day, weren’t we, when we were going, we had to go to a few different places and said, these roads are so good because everything is just so interconnected. But at the time. It was a nightmare. Absolutely. Tony: When I was at the Corporation, we used to do, I didn’t do many maps, but I used to do some of the maps. And, I knew the district, so used to go out, drive along the routes. It wasn’t, wasn’t a problem for me. Roseanna: Yeah, you were the incomer and, you knew and the people who lived there didn’t know. Interviewer: That’s great. Where did you live when you worked for the Development Corporation? Tony: I was living in Sunderland. I lived in Farringdon with my parents. and, other than, as I said before that, had I got this job in London, I would have gone to London probably. But no, I was, staying there. I was in a flat in Newcastle while I was at college. but yes, moved back home, and lived there until, we got. Roseanna: Married, really as you did. Tony: In those days I used to call quite a lot at Roseanna’s house. Used to visit quite a lot. But, no, I was quite happy, in those days. I had a little Austin Seven. Very old car which was much admired at the Corporation. I used to park this little Austin Seven. And I used to like just tootling around in that. But I never really considered moving. I should have really got a flat somewhere. Roseanna: But people didn’t do that in those days, really. Tony: Yeah, in those days they tended to stay at home. Well, I certainly did. And I was quite happy, you know, Roseanna: When he had his Austin Seven. You know what an Austin Seven looks like? A box. We went to see Bonnie and Clyde in it and we dressed, and you had your trilby on that night, like a little hat on, like Bonnie. And we went off to see this thing and then we came out, and we’d forgotten where we parked the car. And we had to ask a policeman. Do you remember? Tony: Oh, yes. Interviewer: It’s just. Roseanna: How do you find – have you seen an Austin Seven? Cos we’d forgotten. So we must have looked a right pair. Tony: Another funny little story was, the Austin Seven, I used to tinker with it all the time and we sold that. And, one day, there’s a garage in Sunderland called Turvey’s. And in the window was a TR5. And I used to admire this car from the bus because I didn’t have a car, so I used to use a bus. Anyway, Roseanna:you got a Mini first? Tony: Oh, there was a Mini. Oh, that’s right. I went from the Austin to the Mini. And somehow I used to get on the bus and go past this Turvey’s. Anyway, Turvey’s was taken over by another company and there was a huge sale on. And this TR 5 went down to half, half its price. So I thought I’m going to have that and bought it. So I went from the Austin Seven, to an Austin Mini to a TR 5. Beautiful car. Roseanna: Oh we’ve got that the wrong way around. Tony: Is it? Roseanna: Yeah. You went from, you went – because you sold the TR5 to buy the Mini because we were getting married. Tony: Yes, it was the Austin to the TR 5. That’s right. Because when I didn’t have the Austin I was using the bus and that’s when I saw them. And then when we got married, because the lovely car, it was very expensive. With fuel injection, it was fast. and anyway, when we got married that had to go. And went from that down to a little orange Mini. Roseanna: Oh, perfect. Tony: And in those days we used to share the money. Eventually we each got a car and because Roseanna was teaching up in Felling and I was in Washington. So one car wasn’t enough. But yeah, down to a little Mini. But I loved that little Mini as well. Lovely little. Lovely little car but whereas the, TR 5 was Walnut dashboard with all kinds of dials and buttons, the Mini had a steering wheel and a speedometer. That was it. Interviewer: You mentioned the car being admired at the Development Corporation. I get the feeling there was real camaraderie there. Is that right? Tony: Oh, yes. Yeah. We had regular, we had barbecues, discos. In fact, I organised the disco. and I was the DJ up at Washington. And it just at lunchtime, because It was, I mean the Washington Concord was just a mile down the road. People used to stay there. There was a lovely canteen. And next to the canteen was a an area with seats. And everybody used to have the meal and then go into this and just have a chat and you know, play music, tell jokes and you know, just. Just a nice atmosphere. So yes, everybody was,everybody was more or less of the same kind of age. Except the Some of the executives. They were older, but the staff had so very much camaraderie. And Roseanna: Still friends with people from there aren’t we? Tony: Yeah, we still bump into people and remember the good old days. And I went there after. I think after 25 years. Anybody was still around, was invited back to Washington and quite a few people came. And they had, they took a photograph of everybody. Of every department. And it was good to see you know, people that you remembered from 25 years before that. So. Yeah, so yes, was very Very, very friendly. And Just Yes. Happy days. Roseanna: Yeah. Interviewer: Were you in the cast of Holly’s Follies? Tony: I was. Interviewer: I need to work out which one you are now. Tony: We sang the song. I think it’s "Ob la Di Ob la Da". Roseanna: Right. Tony: And then Oh Yeah, Holley’s Follies. That was brilliant. It was a bit like Monty Python, just sketches. And it was myself, Cess, and we had this band, you know, there’s "Ob la Di Ob la Da". That’s what we sang. To words, different words. Some of them were near-the-knuckle words but we used to have rehearsals for that and at one time they said, "oh, we could form a band here", which never happened, but we obviously went on to form the Healeys. But it was great fun, great fun. And you got some, I forget the names of them now, but they were executives who were behind the desk kind of people, old fashioned officers and they were doing silly things on this thing. It was great, you know, loosen the tie and just, you know, get up. It was really, really good. And at Usworth Hall we had an office around a quadrangle, a lawn and in that lawn were pheasants and the gardener used to come in every day and feed the pheasants and cut the grass. And so all the time I think the wings, I don’t think they could fly off. So I think the wings were probably clipped. But if you wanted just a little bit of tranquilly, you’d just look out on the lawn and see these pheasants wandering around. It was really, really lovely. Roseanna: And you used to have football teams, didn’t you, girls as well as boys Tony: Aunt we did. And we used to play in. I think it’s the Sunderland training ground, which was next to Usworth Hall. I don’t think it is there now. but we used to play at lunchtime in the grounds. I mean, Usworth Hall had huge grounds and, lunchtime some of the lads would have a game of football and, girls as well. Interviewer: I think you’re the first person that’s pointed out to me about the age, you know, the average age of the staff there being very similar. So it must have felt like an extension of college. Tony: It did times it did. Roseanna: And you know, quite a few couples got together, weren’t there? You know, you can imagine, yeah. A few marriages came out of it. Tony: Ah, and lots of departments. You felt easy just to go into another department, have a chat and then go somewhere else – a lot of intermingling with various departments. So, it was a happy place. Interviewer: So you worked there till 197…? Tony: Four, yeah. Interviewer: Right. And beyond that, did you sort of keep an eye on what was happening there or did you. Tony: Oh, yes. Always took an interest. but by then, everything was up and running, really. So it was just, keeping an eye and just see thing. Obviously things. Some things are left that weren’t finished. So it was interesting to see and just to see how. Who I don’t know who came after me there but just to see what publications came out afterwards. I was interested in that and interested to see the development in the Galleries and just… But by then It was up and running and established really. So I think it was just time to move on and you know, do something else. So… Roseanna: And after that it was time to point out to the children, that’s one of your dad’s monuments. That’s one of your dad’s monuments. Interviewer: How did the kids respond? Roseanna: Well, just, you know, they don’t really realise at the time, but I suppose in later life they realise maybe it was quite a big thing. Interviewer: The other questions that I’m asking most people is – One is what mistakes were made? Now you’ve already mentioned the district numbers, but were there any other mistakes made that you can think things that could have been done better? Tony: Not, not really. Roseanna: Well, as I’ve mentioned about Cook’s Hall, that was one of the biggest mistakes that they made. Demolishing it. Tony: Yeah, no, I was always very enthusiastic about what they were doing. but as you say, I think the, as you’ve seen, the district numbers that was a big mistake. But Roseanna: Which they did rectify. Of course they did realise it was. Tony: Wrong because I think, Along running parallel, I think with Milton Keynes, I think they still had the number system that might have changed down there as well. But no, Apart from those two things, I was quite happy with the way it was going. Interviewer: Did you ever get asked to design something that explained which district number was what? Tony: Probably on one of the newsletters that I did – that would be explained. In fact, I’m sure it was, But still people were confused. I think even Tyne Tees put out a crew into the area. Roseanna: They did. Tony: It was a farce. Roseanna: It was like a spoof article, wasn’t it? People getting lost and doing like my brother, looking for where they were. Tony: He’s going up to a sign. It’s 6, 7 and 8 up there. 5 and 2 were up there, three. What are they? Roseanna: I mean they got the one good thing that they. A lot of good things that they did. But you know, it was the end of Newall’s as well. Newall’s was a major part when I was a child, was a major part of Washington with the big heap, which was just, you know, asbestos and whatever else was in there. I don’t know, but that was an awful, awful thing. And we used to go a regular walk for us as a family on a Sunday afternoon or something -we’d go down Brady Square, rounding to Cox Green and then round and back up. But in so doing that, we’d have to pass this – and anybody who’s from Washington will know about the gassy gutter. Have you heard about the gassy gutter? You’d go down and near, somewhere near where Newall’s tip was, was this gutter, which, it was foul, but part of the walk, you had to smell it. You had to smell the gassy gutter. You just had to do it. So they go to the gassy gutter and then down and over by the Alice well and everything. And that was all part of the walk, but was passing this blot on the landscape, really. Tony: One thing that, comes to mind is where people that get around the water cooler or the coffee machines, but in those days, somebody came around with coffee. Every office ‘cos, can you imagine, a 10:00 on the desk, cup of coffee and a biscuit? Roseanna: Wow. Tony: You don’t see that these days. And, I mean, she knew what everybody wanted. Oh yours is tea, yours is coffee. Two sugars, one. She was absolutely brilliant. Interviewer: How many staff were there that she was remembering all those details? Tony: Well, it must be in the hundreds, really. morning and afternoon as well. And we had a lovely dinner lady. And, in the morning, we could all have bacon sandwiches, sausage sandwiches, and she used to, she’d just make them right, just, just right. Roseanna: So did you actually take stuff in for your own lunch? Tony: No. You had to buy it Roseanna: No, no. I mean, did people tend to take food in for lunch or did you go somewhere? Tony: We used to go to the canteen. Most people went to canteen. I suppose some people took in sandwiches. but no, those lovely, lovely, proper meals. Proper meals at lunchtime. Roseanna: They didn’t know they were born. Interviewer: It’s another world, isn’t it? Roseanna: Another world from teaching, I can tell you, you can’t leave your room. Interviewer: Exactly. Tony: One thing I used to hate was it was, more or less nine till five. So at 09:00 everybody was trundling in, and at 04:00, everybody trundling at 05:00 and I used to hate that. I used to often just stay behind just to, so there wasn’t kind of this crocodile of people going out, traffic jams. Oh, dear me. Big car park at the back and everybody, they should have kind of staggered it, you know, some lot out at four, quarter past four, Roseanna: But it’s like the shipyards people used to. Used to open the doors and the doors, and the same with Cook’s. My dad worked at Cook’s. And you’d hear the buzzer go, and you see all the men coming up, you know, at the same time and trying to get out. Tony: One particular thing I wanted to say was that Washington Corporation, preserved the village. Beautiful village. Roseanna will say something about it, but The Forge, which is the restaurant there now, used to be a working smithy and The Green, the cafe was the library, with the wooden gates as you went in. But Roseanna says, Roseanna: When I was a child, that was my … I used to come down from St. Joseph’s school down Village Lane and either get on the bus and pay a penny to go home or spend the penny at Lambert’s shop, which was a men’s hairdressing shop with a sweet shop attached. You could – Health and safety, They wouldn’t do that these days – men’d be having their hair cut at one end and selling sweets at the other. Then we’d go over the road with our lolly and watch the horses being shod. And it was an absolute joy. I just loved that. And then sometimes we’d go over to the library, which, as Tony said, was just over where the cafe is now. And that was lovely. It was just all oak and lovely swingy oak gates. And I just loved being there. It was a lovely little. And all the women knew you there. It was so friendly. Then they, the Smithy became, the go to little cafe, which, when I was about 13, 14, that was a little cafe. And it kind of felt as if we were like in America, because it was selling Coke and you could sit around this little bar with stools and things. And I’d go there with my friend Pat and we’d go and we thought with the bee’s knees, sitting on these stools and having coffee and everything. That was the. What was it called? Yeah, I forgot what it was called. But anyway, that was the cafe there. It’ll come to me. But up the road on Spark Lane was another one which was called the Koffin Klub, spelt KK. and we didn’t go in there because we felt that was not quite our scene. That was a bit too risque for us. It looked, it had all skulls and things, on the front. And it was all very odd. I never ever went in because I was a nice girl. I don’t think it was quite for me, that. Interviewer: So who were the clientele for that? Roseanna: No idea. And I – I was more that or Fortes. but then, when that didn’t, the little cafe, the forge, didn’t last too long. then it became a pottery and it was a lovely potter. My brother knew the potter because my brother was a potter as well. and this David, I think it was David somebody who ran a pottery there which was really nice. That was lovely. And then it was after that it became – I think it was closed for a while. And it became the Blacksmith’s Table, which eventually became the Forge, which it is now. Tony: And the forge is run by the people who, run the cafe. Roseanna: Yeah, the same. Tony: Another memory of those days. we ran the Black Bush folk club, which is … road. Roseanna: Village lane. Tony: Village on village Lane. and one memory, we had some big artists coming along. But one thing, it used to be on a Thursday night. And on a Thursday, a lot of people got paid on a Thursday. And sometimes it was a bit of a madhouse on a Thursday. So we made the decision to run it on a Sunday and it went like clockwork. We had no problems, no rough, no violence, nothing. It was just a real good folk club. And we ran that for about six or seven years. and a lot of people Roseanna: Lots of famous acts came. Tony: Sometimes we bump into people and say, I remember you at the folk club. So a lot of people remember the Black Bush folk club. Roseanna: Quite a few marriages came out of it, I think. But there was nowhere else to go. There was just nothing else in Washington for young people. Unless they wanted to go to the pubs. But they’d come out of church. They’d queue up to get in because they knew if they didn’t queue up, they wouldn’t get in. And the queue would be right down Village Lane. And then there’d be a time when we’d have to say, "sorry, you can’t come in." Tony: One band that plays was The Amazing Blondel. And at that show, Dave Stewart, the famous Dave Stewart was there, Roseanna: as a child, he was only – Tony: A child, he was only 15, 16. Sang a couple of songs. And then, the next day we heard that he’d smuggled into the van of The Amazing Blondel. And when he got down to Scunthorpe, they found him and they had to ring home and his dad had to come down and collect him. This is the famous Dave Stewart. Roseanna: And he used to say, "how do you get a gig? How do you get a gig?" to the lads. I mean, he’s just Bob Dylan’s mate, you know, now. Tony: But they were happy days. Roseanna: They were happy days. Tony: But then, there were three of us in the band. John moved to a job in Wakefield and Ern moved to a job, in Glasgow and so … in Edinburgh, actually. Oh, then he moved to Glasgow, and it was just difficult meeting up for gigs so we decided to fold. Roseanna: For the folk club. They still kept singing together. Yeah, first of all, moved down to London and, he used to come up, he had a job in London as an art director somewhere and he used to come up on a Friday or Saturday on the train and get the sleeper back on a Sunday night after the folk club just because he loved coming and doing it so much. And that was dedication, that’s really. Tony: But we couldn’t keep that up. So eventually, the folk club ended but we still sang. we used to do a lot of gigs, just, as the band. But sadly the folk club had to close. Interviewer: So those of you that were in the band, were you all artists? Tony: We were. John, Roseanna’s brother was a potter and Ern, was, he was a painter but, he was an art director. He was a creative director. I forget this company, Morgan’s in Glasgow. But, we all met at art college. and just, the friendship held beyond those days. Into the folk club, into the band. sadly, Ern died a few years back. so we stopped performing. but we used to go to various places and hire halls and do some things and sell our art. Paintings – my paintings, and prints and, sell it for a charity called the Susie Fund, which we still run. We don’t do the singing but we still have an annual exhibition for the Susie fund and there’s a charity that supports children in Ethiopia. Roseanna: So, yeah, so they were very, very happy days. Another memory from when I was a child and probably most people anyway, that era, but I always remember everything was delivered to your door. You didn’t have the shops that they’ve got now. So that when the new town came and suddenly we had these supermarkets. Like a corner shop, well we get a few of the VG near us, which we’d use. And then suddenly we had all these supermarkets. But prior to that the, the greengrocer used to come to the door, the grocerie store come to the door, the fish man, the butcher, the milkman delivered the milk with a horse. And then, if you were lucky and the horse did what horses do outside your door, it was yours. You would never take it outside somebody else’s. It was outside your door. Well, it was good for the roses, obviously. The rag and bone man would come, the coal man. You would drop the coal off. We didn’t get coal, free coal, but a neighbour did and didn’t need as much, so they would split the load. You’d have to go with your wheelbarrow and shovel it in. so you didn’t need to go shopping like you do now. Tony: Another memory that pops to mind is, when we’re talking about the numbering system rather than … at one time a bus drove into Roseanna’s street, with a football team on. The driver had got lost. He couldn’t find his way to the A1. So he knocked on the door and Roseanna’s brother said, oh, I’ll take you. He hopped in his car and guided them up to the A1. Roseanna: But the football team was Leicester city and it was Peter Shilton was in the front. They just had got, I mean, our street was Biddick Villas and that was a private little road. You only got the odd car coming. I mean, suddenly this bus pulling up outside. What on earth’s going on? You know. But, yeah, it was Leicester. They must have been playing Newcastle or something. And, yeah, so he has just, he just led them. He said, I can’t actually tell you how to do it. I’ll have to just take you. Too complicated. That was with the numbering system for the buses of the roads. Interviewer: I was going to ask you actually about the coal as well, because, I mean, obviously you were in a house that was there before the new town. Yeah, but the new town houses, were they all built with a presumption that people would use electric and, gas or were there still some coal fires emerging? Tony: Perhaps in the old village there would be. But all the newer houses. Roseanna: That’s what I was saying. In the new. The new things that the estates, which were built by the development corporation, they wouldn’t have… Tony: It’s all gas or electricity, I suppose. yeah, because if you look at the house, there’s one thing that children always draw – houses with, chimney pots. But if you look around Washington, there are no chimney pots. It’s weird, but children still draw a chimney pot. But, yeah, I think those houses were designed to be, not to use coal, really. And by then, the colliery had closed, and they were getting rid of the slag heap. I suppose that went into roads or whatever. So it was, they were getting rid of it then. Roseanna: And then and everybody was, I mean we, when I was a child we had a coal fire. But I think in about the ‘seventies is when we got the central heating. Tony: The colliery would just come with a lorry and just dump the coal on the road. And you had to get any help you could – wheelbarrow it in or bring it with pails. But. Hard work but saved a lot of money. Anyway, Roseanna: The other thing that came to the door just thinking, there was the Kleenezee man. Do you ever know the Kleenezee man? He used to come and it was, I can remember I must have been just about three or four. And I remember this man coming to the door and he was a black man. And it was, I mean, it was the first black man I’d ever seen. Because you just didn’t see black people in those days. And I remember just being wide eyed at this man who was so lovely. And he, they used to have a suitcase, a big old fashioned leather suitcase with all their wares in. It would be cleaning equipment, the Kleenezee company. But that’s a big memory of mine of I’m coming to the door, and just this black man. How things change. And the other thing we’re talking about -Cook’s Hall. Yes. Now, Cook’s Hall, its real name is North Biddock hall. Which often there’s confusion between Biddick Hall, which is the name of Lambton’s house, and their house is – Lambton – it is Biddick hall. But ours was North Biddick Hall. And that was … They had a ghost. And I mean, it was. It, was really funny because the three ladies who lived there, Miss Mary, Miss Josephine and Miss Enid, they knew they’d seen the ghost and they knew about her. And Joseph, who was their nephew, had seen the ghost. But neither -they didn’t tell each other. They were protecting Joseph and he was protecting them, so they thought. But they all knew. But one day we were – we had the horses were down in these beautiful stables and the horse was there and the horse was going wild. And We went up and we saw that she was in a lather. She was just totally. Her coat was curly and she was wild eyed and. And she’d kicked the sides of her stable in and she’d kicked her bucket in. She was just going wild inside this stable. And Joseph said he’d seen the ghost walking past her stable. And I said. Well, I said, she was absolutely wild. Interviewer: So did she calm down afterwards? Roseanna: She did, with a lot of loving care and everything. She was in a real state. I mean, some people believe in them, some people don’t. But this is just what happened. I know this is what we heard and saw. And another time the horse, I used to often come down on the horse to our house and my dad and mam would give her a stroke and an apple or whatever and off we’d go. And one day in our living room, I looked, this was Cherry, had a couple of horses. One was called Cherry, a beautiful chestnut. And I said, here’s Cherry on her own. She’d got out of this stable, she’d come over the main road, she’d come down the street and into, as I said, the front door. And all we had was a belt. My dad got his belt out and put the belt around and we led her back up to the stable. But she just made her way down over a main road as well. Yeah. So I know, I mean, anything she could have caused an accident, she could have had an accident, anything could have happened. The other character in Washington was Bobby Thompson. My dad knew Bobby Thompson and my dad, when he was a child, because Bobby Thompson used to come to my grandmother’s house, he would do anything for a bit of money. That wasn’t hard work, he didn’t like work. So my grandmother would give him sixpence and he’d do the floors. So that would happen. Anyway, he knew my dad and my dad, when he was 14, got a job, came out of school, got a job as a delivery boy on a bike for Metcalfes, which had a shop down in Brady Square, the grocer’s shop. And he had a big basket on the front and he’d go off on his little bike, you know, you’ve seen them. and one day he had, he was coming down and had an awful fall off his bike and he fell on gravel and it was a right mess. Bobby Thompson happened to be around and he said to me dad, "you know what you do?" He said. And he made up this story of how he’d had this terrible accident and he would get parish relief and all this. And he went off with my dad and he took him in and he got him the equivalent of 50 pence parish relief, which he took to my grandmother and my grandmother went ballistic because she said, "this is not the way we live, you know". And that was Bobby Thompson. He was always, you know, looking for something like that. Little, little naughtiness really. Full of, full of naughtiness, wasn’t he? I think he was. I think he was a, well, he was called The Little Waster. I think he was really. But probably his heart was in the right place. I think he just, I don’t think he had a wonderful childhood. I’m not sure. but I don’t think there was badness in him, really. Tony: We saw him a few times. Great act. Roseanna: I mean, he was a gambler. He used to go, he used to go do his, act, you know, he’d wear his, the old gansey and then his soldier’s outfit. When he left the gig he’d have his bow tie tie and everything because he was going to the nightclub, to the casino, rather. And he would go to the casino and spend the night in the casino, and then eventually go home. Interviewer: So would he travel to Sunderland for that? Tony: Would probably. Roseanna: I don’t know. I mean, I really don’t know. Tony: There were a couple of nightclubs and casinos, though. Roseanna: It was the casino. Tony: Interesting, probably Newcastle. He’d probably have a taxi waiting for him to take him Roseanna: Well, he had a driver. He used to bring him around. but he was, because he was born in Fatfield, I think it was Fatfield he was born. And so he went to the same school that I went to in his childhood and so he was always around, in his early days, but yeah, a character. Now the other thing was, when, Cook’s Hall, before it was demolished, Joseph (the ladies had gone by then. They’d gone to this house in Boldon). And, Joseph ran a party for us and just, just us and our young friends and we were just teenagers. The house was in total darkness because there was no electricity or nothing. He had roaring fires on and the house was just empty. I remember in one room he had a couple of wingback chairs which my mam and dad sat in. It was surreal. And, he had a big, long table. I mentioned the chickens. Well, they had to be killed. So the chickens were on the table, I know. So they had all these chicken legs and everything. We could just wander around, this beautiful old house before it was demolished. It was so kind of him. He did, he was, he was very, very kind. I think it was so sad. That was really sad. That was the, for me, that was the worst part about Washington, them pulling down that beautiful building, with all of its history, because it was about a 1600 … I think it was a really beautiful. The little village. Tony: Which village is it that’ll be on the site of Cook’s Hall? Which village? The village centre down there Roseanna: Oh, sorry. Oh, Where the Sandpiper used to be Tony: Yeah. Roseanna: Yeah, that’s just about. Yeah, kind of. Yeah, somewhere around there. It’s difficult to get your bearings because the driveway – used to be a beautiful driveway down to the house from the Lodge, which is still there. The Lodge is there and you’d go down to double gates and down this beautiful driveway, which kind of curled round and then you couldn’t see the house. And then suddenly this beautiful old house would emerge. We had a wood, still called Cook’s Wood, behind, And a lot of that’s still there. I think they built on some of it. I remember, again, with this friend -Pat – of mine, we went through there and we saw, it was the time of myxomatosis, and we saw a poor little rabbit that was definitely suffering. And I’ve never forgotten that. But we used to. We must have been doing exams and we used to sit in the paddock behind the Hall leading onto the wood and do our study with the horses running around, and just sitting there. It was just lovely. Lovely. They were all fields then, where Biddick is now. Just all fields. It was our playground