Department for Transport good news… (finally!) & Heritage railways under threat | Ep 25

The Department for Transport appoints Scotland’s Railway Managing Director Alex Hynes as its new Director General of the Rail Infrastructure and Service Delivery Group, giving us a ray of hope for the first time, which leads us on to…

Richard spilling the beans on a hitherto unknown exchange that took place during the Rail Review 2004 – and why we must heed the lessons on history.

Auditors question the going concern status of the North Yorkshire Moors Railway and we ask whether the sector is slipping into real crisis?
Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has been at it again with his private jets.
The M25 closes for a weekend… and we ask whether National Highways has done any media training lately!

Richard experiences train tickets and rail fares madness first hand…
And Marylebone station celebrates 125 years. Not bad considering it nearly became a coach park.

On this episode:

00:00 Intro
03:08 Department for Transport appoints Alex Hynes
06:45 Richard’s experience of the Rail Review 2004 and he reveals a story he has never told before
16:43 UK in a Changing Europe Brexit and the State Report about extra civil servants
18:18 Some good news for Green Signals as a Big Interview is confirmed!
19:09 Heritage railways under threat
35:50 Rishi Sunak is at it again with his private jets
37:54 M25 closes for a weekend
39:30 Oddities of the train tickets and rail fares system

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Credits:
Presenters – Nigel Harris (@railnigel on X) & Richard Bowker CBE (@SRichardBowker). General Manager: Stef Foster (@stefatrail)

And on this week’s show leading rail industry manager Alex Hines has been appointed director general of the dft’s new rail infrastructure and Service delivery group is this finally some good news our very own cheerful Charlie Richard however spills the beans on a hitherto unknown exchange that took

Place during the rail review in 2004 which he was involved in and why we may need to heed the lessons of History Auditors question the going concern status of a very well-known Heritage Railway is the sector finally sliding into real crisis the prime minister is at it again with his private

Jets the M25 is closed for a weekend and we ask if National highways have done any media training lately Richard experiences rail far’s Madness at firsthand and tells us about it and some good news maril laone celebrates 125 years of life not bad considering it very nearly became a Coach Park in the 1980s hello and welcome to Green signals from me Nigel Harris and Away there in gluster Wiltshire please Wilshire goodness me you’ve just you’ve just offended a lot of people anyway so uh yeah welcome from from Richard balker here in Wilshire that’s what you call a great start and you’ll notice we not we

Haven’t re-recorded it I’ll stop it Richard sorry sorry apolog it’s earlier and I’m not quite caffeinated that’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it see I had you down as a neighbor of Prince Charles sorry the king that’s what see I did it again right I’m just

Going to stick to the script in future three strikes and you’re out I know I know we hope you’re enjoying listening to Green signals as much as we are writing and recording our podcast we put the show out as an audio podcast on Spotify Apple Google and loads of other

Platforms but we also have a YouTube channel where in addition to the weekly shows which you can listen to in audio form or watch the video pods we also have videos such as Richard’s recent trip showing gwr Pullman dining and didn’t he have a good time around 2third

Of our viewers and listeners on YouTube are not actually subscribed so if you can please do press the Subscribe button you do have to create a YouTube account to do that but it’s really easy to do then you can subscribe and it really does help it’s completely free and there

Aren’t many things you can say that about nowadays right we got a slightly different show today we’re going to review quite a few stories that of themselves may not have made big headlines but actually they are interesting and in some cases they could yet turn out to have significant impact

But our first story definitely qualifies as big so it is genuinely big news to kick off with Scott rail Alliance managing director Alex Hines has been appointed director general of the dft’s new rail industry and Service delivery group the team that is expected to transfer to gbr when the rail Reform

Bill Becomes law if it becomes law so finally we will see an ual seasoned experienced and indeed rather successful Railway leader right in the heart of government handling Railways Richard surely surely even you God he’s laughing already must be happy about this and it’s important to note that this is a two-year initial

Sment from Scott rail Richard go I’m delighted I’m genuinely happy praise the Lord um he is he’s a great guy um those who know Alex will know he’s he’s very able uh but he’s also a lovely guy as well um agreed so uh yeah I I I am happy

The um I suppose the challenge there’s going to be some challenges ahead but let’s not take away from the fact that finally as you say we’ve got a genuine Railway leader right in the heart of the DFT and you know when you do that when you put somebody in like that

Uh uh what they are and who they are rubs off on the people around them it’s it’s unavoidable right so from clashes with the people around them well not this well there might be but you know everybody has a kind of clash from time to time there not necessarily a bad

Thing is it but um I just think his infectious desire for the railway to get things done and do them properly and you know and Pace um because that’s probably one thing that the DFT uh don’t have in abundance is is will rub off and that is

A really really good thing so let us celebrate that it is a reason to be happy and he has considerable charm it must be said which will not be which will not be lost on yeah no he does he he has he has real charm yeah he does he

Does however here it comes no there is no but coming there really isn’t I genuinely I genuinely read that and heard that yesterday and thought oh good however um he is one guy right and as good as he is and he is really good

He is one guy and I think the thing that we must do as an industry well we we must support him continue to cheer for him um but we mustn’t expect miracles to happen on day one because they won’t you know he’s going to take time to

Acclimatize it is different it is the department for transport is a central government you know department and he’ll need to get used to that and we’ve going to have to give him some space cuz it’s not going to happen immediately I I worry that we have there is a danger the

Industry might put too much expectation and pressure on him from day one and that and that would be that would be bad because that that that’s not fair actually and we mustn’t do that either and we mustn’t do that no we will can Alex if you if you’re listening and we

Know you do listen um we’re absolutely delighted and um more power to we will carry on being um cheerleaders from the sidelines but I just the rest of the industry doesn’t doesn’t just go well why haven’t you why haven’t you fixed everything well because it’s not that straightforward but one of the

Interesting things is of course that this new team that um Alex is going to be leading is planned to be moved over to gbr if and when that becomes a a reality which is fun we said that on the show uh with Andrew Haynes if you remember we actually said you know chup

Is going to reply are you looking forward to welcoming these people into um into your organization and we did bit um so we we’ve always known that was going to happen it will it will migrate over but it did kind of make me think well what’s actually going to get left

In the in the DFT and that’s where and I know I’m speculating but that’s where the worry comes from it comes a bit I guess because central government departments once they’ve got a grip on something have quite a a good strong track record of not not letting go

Because they kind of think that that’s all about you know control and and so on and so forth kind of brought to mind my experience back in 2004 with the rail review which was kind of slightly in the reverse but it did it did um remind me

That none of this is straightforward and none of it’s done till it’s done um and that was obviously over the rail review in 2004 um and what happened there is quite is quite fascinating it is the lesson of History really and I’ll I’ll tell you something that I

Actually haven’t told anybody well with a possible I think I might have told Tom Winder actually but I I’ve not told anybody else and certainly not publicly in in in 20 years now it can be told eh well yeah I’m not very good at all of

This let’s go back and and and uh lifting the veil there’s no book in me that’s for sure I’m not interested in stuff like that and I don’t I don’t like telling Tales but this one is this is relevant okay okay fire away come on so

You remember you’re a Gog okay do you remember when um aliser darling uh announced the outcome of the rail review oh I do and he did it um in fact I’ve got I’ve got the I just printed off the the relevant beit he did it in July 2004

It’s 15th of July so you can look it up on Hansard um and he said he said the following right he said the proposal The Proposal that I’m announcing today streamline the structure and organization of the Railway now bearing in mind the proposals were basically bringing the SRA into the Department of

Transport and I think moving the railway inspectorate into the r that was basically it yes it was um so uh they’re going to streamline the structure and organization the railway they provide a single point of accountability for performance not entirely I’ve never understood quite why I thought that but

Anyway they allow closer working between track and train and provide for greater local and devolved decision making together these proposals will make sure that Britain’s Railways are run in the public interest interest for the benefit of its passengers and Freight customers we could write the same sentence about

10 times you know in the next 20 years really but anyway this was the key point he said he then explained what he was doing first the government will take charge of setting the overall strategy for the railways it must be for ministers accountable to Parliament and

To the elction to set the national strategy for the railways yeah the message being cuz at the moment I can’t do that right because because you were yeah yeah the SR is doing that and it must be for ministers ministers should do this we’re accountable to the

Electorate so we’re going to take charge of the overall strategy right now and there lots of here here and waving of order papers and all that kind of nonsense now what the bit that people don’t know is the conversations that took place prior to that so um on an

Eyes Only basis um Alistair let me see what he was going to say in advance of him saying it and I had a look and then I went to see him oneon-one one-onone just him and me no officials no official that is unusual no it is unusual and they hate it but no

Officials he said what do you think and I said well well at the end of the day it’s your you know it’s a it’s this is a political you’ve decided you want to do this whatever reason but you just must be aware of one thing this bit here

Which is a bit I’ve just read out to you got to be careful saying that um you’re going to do something and give the impression you can’t do it cuz you can and he said what do you mean so we got the transport act 2000 he used to have a

Copy of various bits and Bobs on his on the Shelf in the office at Great Minster house so I went and got the 2000 act and I read out I found the paragraph and I read this so this is in section 206 which again you can look on the on the

Internet this is all about the creation of the Strategic rail Authority it says the The Authority um shall formulate and keep under review strategies with respect to its purposes right but then it says in little section three of section 206 the Secretary of State may give the authority

Directions and guidance in relation to its strategies in particular in relation to a the matters to be covered by them B the issues to be taken account of in formulating them C the strategy to be adopted in relation to any matter and D the updating of them so in English if

The Secretary of State decide decided he wanted he wanted the Strategic ra authority to produce a strategy on a particular matter and indeed how to produce that strategy he could direct them to do so already under the existing legislation yeah that was in the transport act so he could so ministers

Could do could direct strategy right so the one thing I am still uh of the view is that the the 2004 Railways um rail review did not need to do which arguably was the only thing it actually said it did do was bring uh strategy Direction back into the

Department of Transport because they already had the power they just chosen not to really use it so you told him that he already had the power to do what he was going to stand up in Parliament and say was changing things to do um and so presumably if I’m reading this

Right the only reason he went ahead and still did it after you told him he could already do those things is to get rid of the SRA well that so that bit um I I’ve never I’ve never asked and I can’t ask now for obvious reasons we I’ve never

Had that conversation cuz I’m big believer and never ask a question you don’t really want to hear the answer to right so I don’t know and I’ll never know but it’s um it’s not an unreasonable hypothesis what you’ve just said but either way um one thing I’m

Clear about is that he could or when I say he I don’t mean he person the Secretary of State could direct strategy um under the 2000 act um so that it for me the rail review was always a bit of a kind of a a bit of a pointless exercise

Really if he wanted to bring the SRA into the DFT could have just said that’s what I want to do right so effectively you told him there was no need to stand up and say all that because he could already do all those things but he effectively stood up and said it anyway

Pretty much and then interestingly um after that at some point I forget exactly when it was I sat down with the permanent the then permanent secretary s David rolands um talking about the timing of my departure uh from the SR and I repeated this and said you look I

Think you and I both know that under the 200000 act the Secretary of State the office of the Secretary of State already had the power to do this stuff you didn’t need to bring the S into the DFT and he just looked at me and my

Point is this you can’t trust him well you government departments don’t like they get very nervous about seeding power cuz in that instance right in the 2004 they found a way to get it back right they’d never been happy when Prescott created the Strategic rail Authority they found a way to get it

Back and that’s my lesson of History really just be really careful I mean all of this stuff we’re hearing at the moment rail Reform Bill sounds great but it’s as good as where it ends up not where it starts and I guess I guess a big lesson for there is for Alex Hines

Take contemporary temporaneous notes of everything that um is talked about discust and everything else because what you’re saying is just shows you can’t trust them well Alex is his own man and he’s a good guy and he’s pretty exper bear in mind this guy’s I mean look at

What he’s done I mean he ran Northern he did you you certainly um you certainly get a few gray hairs doing that and he’s been in Scotland which is quite a political environment because you know the Scottish government’s more is very active let’s just put it that way it’s very active

In the way it it getss involved in things and he’s he’s coped brilliantly with those he succeeded despite that so I am very confident that Alex will give a really good shot of this but I I suppose my comment about the rail review

2004 is really a bit of a a bit of a kind of um a warning moment for the entire industry what matters with this all of this process is where we end up in because uh you know power is not control is not given away he’s lightly

No no it’s not and the point you just made there about Alex is that he manages up very well what everyone normally sees and comments on is the output of managing down into the rail when he’s going to have to draw heavily on those skills in managing the civil servants

Because I understand the civil services expanding rapidly isn’t it Richard um well I did notice it’s interesting you say that I I saw this thing and I don’t I’ve not checked the quality of the source the the source is right but I mean I don’t know if you know some

Sources or or um some reports are written from a very specific point of view and I don’t know whether this one’s been written from that but I did find a thing which um uh there’s a there’s an organ there’s a website you can go like it called UK and a changing Europe which

Suggests they’ve written a a paper called brexit in the state where they say that 100,000 100,000 extra civil servants um have been hired to deal with sort the consequences of brexit policy there’s that wonderful wonderful bit you’re a of Yes Minister aren’t you yes I am huge a documentary not a comedy I

Tell you what I absolutely concur with that there’s a wonderful episode uh I need to dig it out where uh Jim hacker decides to have an efficiency drive and Humphrey because I think it’s in yes mines it’s before it becomes PM does This brilliant job of explaining why if

You’re going to have an efficiency drive you actually need more civil servants um and and it’s a it’s a superb episode um and I think as you say a documentary my favorite bit was I think in the very first one um where hacker says to humy well I’m

Glad you answered all my questions and humphy says I’m glad you thought so Min that is absolutely Priceless isn’t it yes speaking of the DFT though Richard we do have some very clear good news for green signals we do we we do we do Minister we like good news Minister

For rail marman I am delighted to announce has accepted our invitation to join us on the show for a big interview his office have confirmed it he was actually meant to be joining us this very week but unfortunately something came up in his diary to Bumpers so we’re

Eagerly awaiting a new date promised by his office and we’ll keep everybody posted it’s exciting that isn’t it I mean fair fair play to him so it should it would be good it isn’t it can be it can be assured an objective courteous but challenging conversation totally absolutely we are fairness

Personified okay on to the news the Heritage rail sector in the UK has been a real success story over the last 70 years um since the tlin blazed a trail with Stander gedge preservation coming along in 1959 with the Middleton Railway in lead and the Bluebell um and far from being just an

Opportunity for individuals to enjoy their Hobbies um the sector has become a massive tourism magnet and a big employer and a major contributor Richard mentioned in a previous pod that if you strung all the Heritage Railways together they’d have about 400 miles which is nearly as long as the 41 and a

Quarter miles of the West Coast main line so there’s a lot of it anyway for more than 15 years the North Yorkshire Moors Railway was the Envy of the heretic sector because Yorkshire TVs and subsequently itv’s popular Sunday evening cozy drama heartbeat was filmed around the line in the village of goland

Together with its station and the steam trains became the fictional Village of aidensfield where former East Ender star Nick Berry played Constable Nick Rowan showed his adventures other major Stars included NE kusac and Derek FES who was also in Yes Minister the show ran for an incredible 18 Series in total from

1992 until 2012 regularly capturing 10 million viewers in the 1990s with a peak audience of more than 13 million viewers in 2001 now I say all that to illustrate the massive publicity from which the North Yorkshire Moors Railway benefited and profited considerably during that period with booming passenger figures it seemed to

Have the midest touch but Richard what when wrong um I understand you’ve been digging in the accounts and as a fully fledged accountant you know what you’re looking at maybe you can tell us um what you’ve deduced with sorry forgive me without boring as rigid with accountant

Speak that’s fair enough um yeah I think just by way of context uh this is one Heritage Railway and even a cursory glance around the sector suggests there’s there’s there’s a lots of people yeah there’s a lot of people with real challenges so no one should think this

Is just one that’s that’s got an issue but the reason why this story came about because BBC uh I think the sort of local news had a ran a story um on the 14th of March um talking about uh accounts and I think it will have been because the uh

North auction Moors had to uh submit their accounts to the charity Commission um because the parent company is a charity uh and that’s what triggered um the story now the actual accounts in question relate to the year ended 28th of February 2023 just over a year ago just over a

Year ago and because um certainly a PLC which the um one of the companies is have to file them within six months in a way these have been in the public domain for about six months but I think it just came out because of this charity commission thing now um it is

Complicated and we’ve got to be really careful here because we don’t want to uh be so superficial that the North O Mo’s Railway quite rightly says well hang on a minute you haven’t mentioned that that that that and that right so we got to be

Very careful but in common with a lot of these Heritage Railways North auction MOS has a charitable trust company that sits if you like as the parent at the at the top and that’s where all the Heritage assets are that’s where they do the fundraising all the gift aid and the

Charity stuff and all that kind of thing and then they have another company that does the operating of the Railway actually runs the trains actually runs the train usually under a contract and I think there is a thing in place with the north y m called the collaboration agreement or something

That actually that that kind of Although the story in the BBC was about the charity accounts which is the actually what we’re just going to very briefly look at are the operating Company accounts which are North auction Moors Railway PLC because those tell us the story of how trading is going okay

How healthy the railway is as a as a business if you’re like in his well yeah I mean it’s it’s almost like you know the money the money that comes in from selling stuff um with the stuff that goes out that costs them to run it right

These are the counts for the for the end of mar uh end of February 2023 and as you said a year ago and it’ll be another six months before we get the ones from the end of February 24 but so that’s that’s where we are um and when you look

At them it’s quite interesting they say that turnovers uh actually up a bit in that year but the cost of sales and the administrative costs are are up by more and right the net effect is that the operating company lost £600,000 599,000 wow that’s a big number it is a

Big number it is a big number which compared to the year before which was the year ended 22 they actually made a tiny surplus of six grand right so that’s a big swing so it’s turned it’s it’s gone South by nearly by half a million pounds or so 600 Grand yeah yeah

Wow and it’s actually slightly more problematic than that because and this is an accounting point in the profit and loss account for the year ended February 2 um the directors in producing accounts have what’s called released a provision now there’s a thing called they have a thing called the Deferred maintenance

Provision right getting headache well it it’s important this I’m afraid I know it’s important I’m just trying to keep up and and what they’ve done their their notes to their accounts are are very clear you can see exactly what they’ve done right and what they do is they say

Um they’ they’ve got this thing called a deferred provision so um they are are required to maintain certain thirdparty assets uh there might be Heritage assets or whatever used on the railway and they make a provision for the cost of maintenance for that and could be

Locomotives or carriages I guess I I I guess I guess um but it looks like they’ve actually made too much of a provision so they don’t need it all so they’ve released they’ve released some of that to the profit and loss account actually of the uh well however much

There was I think there’s about 600,000 they’ve released 417,000 to the p&l so that that 600,000 loss without that maintenance release would have been just over a million oh good evens that’s the effect it has now there’s nothing un I mean they’ve been very clear about what

They’ve done but what it means is on a like for like basis from a trading point of view that’s a million pound loss okay when you look at the balance sheet of um the operating company ands surprisingly it doesn’t there’s not really much on there the net assets

That’s all there assets minus all their liabilities it’s about 300 Grand now uh it was a lot more but that loss of 600,000 has brought it down from 900 and something to 300 and something um and it it the only slight challenge with it is that when you then look at their cash

Flow they’ve consumed more than half the cash they had at at the start of the year so they went from I think I I forget the precise numbers now but they definitely have consumed they consumes sufficient cash that they now don’t at the end of February 23 they didn’t have

The same they didn’t have enough left to consume the same amount again do you know what I mean so oh yeah the result of all of this and the thing that the BBC picked up on was they the Auditors said they made a comment about going

Concern and this is this is the key bit right and what they said was um these events or conditions along with the other matters as set forth in the notes indicate that a material uncertainty exists that may cast significant doubt on the company’s ability to continue as a going

Concern now there is a bit in the notes you have to read the notes and all of it because there’s a lot of good stuff in there that explains what’s going on and the directors of the north y mors Railway have been quite open they said

Look we know it’s really tough at the moment they talk about Ukraine and coal prices and so on and they list the things they’re doing to correct the situation and they so they’ve got a plan they’ve clearly got a plan right um but not withstanding that the Auditors have

Still said yeah well okay but we think on the basis of this there’s a there’s a material doubt and material UNC material uncertainty and that is problematic really because the now I suppose the good news is were the finance director of the NMR here he would say well 12

Months on right and it is a year ago yeah we’re still here all right and we’re doing the things and actually when the BBC the BBC ran this story and obviously asked for a comment because the um Finance director said that the report had reflected the situation at

The time it was compiled obviously a year ago and he said however between February 23 and February 24 we’ve made some huge changes that’s resulted in a big positive move into profitability of around half a million pounds actually uh he said he was extremely positive about the 2024 season which is obviously the

One we’re going into and was forecasting a further Improvement so he said we’ve come through the winter with cash head room so any potential problem has gone away now well uh look he he knows his numbers and to you know to the nth degree so we shouldn’t question his his

Nor no I’m not sure I’d have phrased it quite like that but only because I don’t think the what they call the negative headwinds the economic headwinds that are affecting the sector they haven’t gone away right um and I think when you look at this what you see is an example

Of a sector that is in very very tough trading conditions you know they have no free reserves really um and so it does say to me that these guys are doing a you know they’re in they’re having a really tough time and clearly they’re doing something well because theyve you

Know they’re still they’re all all of these guys are still going but it must be really really tough and it does make you think you know can can you it’s a bit hand to mouth and can it keep going on but when you’re auditor or be year ago says there’s a material uncertainty

About whether you’re a going concern or not that that sounds like it’s teetering on the edge yeah it it’s it’s one of those phrases that is yeah you don’t you don’t ever want to see it written and as we say you know In fairness to them they

Don’t shy away from it they they they they accept in the report all credit to them for that well yeah they they accept uh they say this in the report whilst the directors recognize the challenges and uncertainties that the railway faces they believe that with continued support

From the bank the actions being imple implemented together with their collaboration agreement which is the thing that they’ve got with the the parent company that they will continue um as a going concern and you know they know their business but it it does feel as if the whole sector has got some real

Challenges at the moment it does it does doesn’t it and there in the north yorim Mo’s Railway we’re talking about a very mature Railway it opened on May the 1st I think 19 1973 reason I remember that is I think it opened the day before the Lakeside havewe Railway May 2nd the 1973

That’s why it sticks in the so they’ve been going a long time they had the Magnificent benefits of of heartbeat they’ve got the scenery the number of visitors up there whip is on the doorstep they extended the railway into into Whitby and yet here we are um somebody

Told me earlier today that um an adult return over the full York Shor Railway is 49 quid if you’ve got two kids the good thing is apparently kids go free um but by the time you’ve bought burgers and ice creams you’ve got in in today’s trading cons conditions that’s a big ask

Isn’t it and I just wonder whether the day of the shorter Railways upon us will they be more resilient you know the five miles and under the worth Valley Railways the Lakeside Railways the Middleton Railways the East Somerset Railways the ones that are small and beautifully formed because they’ve got

Lower infrastructure and maintenance costs and liabilities and they’ve got more affordable fairs you put yourself in the position of and as you say it’s not enough the norim let’s not just focus on them but if you’re a family well you are a family man and you know

You’ve got a choice between going to I don’t know a seven Valley or a blue but the one of the big boys the Premier League with the fairs that go with it or a two mile Railway down the road um it could well be to the advantage of those

Of those shorters because it makes your money go further I mean I really feel for these guys not far not far from where we are as the gler and warshire Railway and that’s a beautiful Railway um and they’ve had to stump up I I think it’s over a million pounds big problems

With Earthworks well Stan wave I had believe was the was the real issue they’ve had to close that and do huge amounts of work I mean these are serious amounts of money so may maybe you you’ve got a point um and maybe that’s something that all these guys have got

To we to look at I mean the seven Valley has also had um real problems with um with Earthworks and big expenses and civil engineering that here’s a little side issue there’s a spot on this s Valley I can’t quite remember what it’s called that’s always been on the Move

Since they built it and I was lucky enough to have one of the drivers take me for quite a few foot plate turns um a few years ago and we’re going past this place it Sterns and he pointed across this and there’s a telegraph pole in what’s the field away said that’s where

The railway used to be um because of so they got all that the seven Valley has sold stania black 5 45110 it was one of the the very last 1968 end of steam black fives and it’s really iconic it’s symbolic they’ve sold it um to um to to

Raise funds I’m hearing problems you know on the Blue Bell maybe the kenty Sussex um the Great Central Railway um asked for volunteers for redundancies now when I was on the board there about 10 15 years ago there were about 50 staff and I can’t think it’s much difference different now but they’re

Looking for 25 volunteers for redundancies they got one so I I really really really feel for Malcolm Holmes the general manager having some very difficult decisions to make to find 25 redundancies it is it is tough these Premier League Railways are clearly really feeling it we’ll have to have a

Bit of a look round at some of the rich a bit of self-promotion um I did write an article in the excellent track side magazine actually which we’ll put um a link to track Side Up um on the on the website about this very about this very

Issue I started in Railway Journal was in 1981 as assistant editor of steam World um and then the biggest name on that circuit was Michael Draper who was the general manager of the seven Valley Railway and he wrote a very controversial article which I pointed you out when you were writing yours

Forecasting just this that the day would come when they were going to you know it’s going to be survival of the fittest Railways wouldn’t be able to U survive there be too many of them some harsh decisions needed well maybe it’s taking time but there are some harsh decision

And what it proves is it’s no longer not that it has been for 20 years acceptable for boards to not be made up of some serious business people with some serious business skills because the costs and liabilities and everything else are significant right back to our prime

Minister we say he’s been at it again he reportedly ordered an RAF dle Falcon to fly him from northal to Darlington and back for his rather cringeworthy oh people’s panel on the Assumption and we think it’s a fair one he was actually going to Central London RAF northal is

Materal materially less convenient than King’s cross for a journey to Darlington Madness Richard Madness is it yeah no it is madness i i i arant Madness to that well what I don’t get right is why his people you know whether they’re PR his minders whatever you want

To call them the Optics prime minister the Optics well you imagine the conversation it’s look prime minister I know you hate trains I mean I can you just imagine this going like this I know you hate trains I hate trains Dreadful awful things however you’re going to

Have to suck it up for the sake of the cameras this time um sir because there is a direct Railway line which actually own it’s in the public sector and it’s really really good from Darlington to Kings Cross and we just can’t we can’t sell this we can’t

Explain it so this time you’re going to have to use the train and he’ll you can go on right but no I I don’t I don’t get it it is tine isn’t it well he either doesn’t get it or he doesn’t care um it’s it’s got to

Be one of the two hasn’t it because the Optics are appalling they are they are they are genu on this I mean normally I can say oh yeah I know he going from a middle a place that’s difficult to get to to another place it’s difficult to get to yeah no time

All no this is London to Darlington I mean it could get more straightforward power Ro a half hour road journey to King’s cross and maybe at the other end but no we’ll drive to northal and scramble an RAF dult jet oh I know we’ve got another road story we have we have

The M25 Britain’s favorite most away we haven’t gone mad no actually you’re right that was a slightly weird sort of linkage wasn’t it anyway um it was closed it was closed for an entire weekend um from uh the evening of Friday the 15th um well I think it was supposed

To open on Monday the 18th but I think they actually opened it a bit early which they got it six hours early it was between Junctions 10 and 11 for the first time since it was opened in 1980 whenever it was you know so well well

Done for that that that was good um there was a brilliant story though in the Independent by the always excellent Simon Calder with he’s brilliant with some Priceless um quotes from the national highways senior project manager Jonathan Wade including these um avoid traveling completely or find something

To do at home decorate the bathroom or something or play in the garden how come be sending then he said if you must go travel by train War use a b use a bicycle I don’t don’t really mind what you do that be if you must go if oh if

You must go then travel by train I mean it’s a it is a sentence dripping with condescension for anybody stupid enough to ever want to normally travel by train I just thought I just I don’t know I it shouldn’t do but it wound me up no it it

Wound me up I mean the one sort of I suppose bit of good news in there but however they presented it they were saying travel by train you know so that’s that’s something you don’t offer any government Department say no that’s true right stories continue to assil us

From all sides not least from the great Simon CER who writes about this sort of thing very regularly audities of the fairs system um and proof that it’s neither simple nor affordable at times now after you me and Steph had a strategy day over here in Lincolnshire a

Couple of weeks ago Richard um you had very personal experience of this didn’t you I did I did now I should say right at the beginning of this this is not a go at any one particular train operating company right it’s just so um it just so happened to be obviously from

Peterborough and guess what out travel by um elen was the logical thing I think this arises because of the engine the the fairs engine that drives all these sites yeah so this is not about not having a go we certainly not having a go

At L um but I I did have quite an experience so on the 13th of March which was OB the day after um I needed to get a train back to um Chippenham which is in Wilshire um the you just can’t help yourself can you no you just can’t help

Yourself no anyway the Ln uh and gwr sites both showed the 10 uh 11 so the 11 minutes past 10 departure from peterb to King’s cross and then a transfer to Paddington for the Paddington to Chippenham train as250 so from Peterborough to Chippenham all through but departing on the 10 11

Sing booking yeah £250 oh she that’s a bit steep so I decided to do some split ticketing research and as a result I got I still got the 1011 from peterb Kings Cross which cost me £26.90 bargain Alan are yep thank you DAV and then I caught the 1215 from

Paddington to Chippenham which was £ 3250 another bargain another bargain thank you Mr Hopwood now I knew I would need to pay a further three on the tube you know for the transfer uh and I was taking the risk that I could do it in an

Hour and a quarter now as it turned out that was ludicrously too much I actually did it in about 30 minutes but the the net effect was my Journey cost me 63 quid or thereabouts because I knew about split ticketing um but it would have cost £250 if ID slavishly followed what the

The ticketing site says that’s A90 difference the thick end of a 100 quid yeah more than double what I ended up paying so I was very pleased with myself but I just thought cheapest yeah and you can see well two things you know people in the industry sometimes wonder

Why customers think they”re being ripped off well they are and you were um but of course the government is going to introduce an industrywide single ticket Insight isn’t oh wait yeah I don’t know they scra that didn’t they yeah keep up with the program now that they scrap that sorry I

Didn’t lay the irony on heav I was no I was playing for cynical laughs so I mean that’s just appalling because a lot of and I don’t mean this in a condescended manner ordinary people who aren’t by which I mean who aren’t aware of the split ticketing thing would just

Book The Thing through and pay 90 quid more than they should so the moral is make your journey up of the single legs and save yourself tens of pounds well yeah definitely well definitely look at all the options yeah definitely right quiz quiz quiz hey well I tell you what

Oh this was a stonker this was how many correct answers to this are there well it turns out like about a million I think um yeah it was quite slightly controversial well controversial wrong word but but lots of people had lots of views um the question was this what

Where was the steeper section of track that was adhesion worked in Britain that saw regular passenger use and I thought well that’s a really clear question yeah well we did say it could be open or closed what we didn’t say we should have said was whether it needed

To be on the National Railway Network or not so as a result we got loads of answers hence so somebody said quite a few people said actually folks the folks and harbor Branch now closed well actually no um it turned out well you’ll see why in a

Minute because it isn’t steepers and we actually ended up having to ask ask Network Rail and thank you to network rail for the gradient profile of the folks in Harbor branch which turns out to be one in 30 um somebody else said this was a really this was a really

Smart one they had the cromford and high peak Railway which is a very famous line very close to where I used to live at Pabi um the Hopton incline was one in4 now that’s propery right um but interesting fact the only period that that had a passenger service was 1833 to

1876 when it was rope worked when it became adhesion worked and we did get that bit right in the question in 1877 of course the passenger service had ceased so that that doesn’t count somebody else this was brilliant said fory c which was the late uh sbil M

Pimes brilliant private Railway um in near Henley but we um uh but the adjudication jury which is basically Steph and me um thought long and hard about this and decided that well you can’t go and that doesn’t have a regular passenger service and it’s a private Railway so

That he steep it’s about one in 13 He Hopton in it’s it’s Bonkers I mean I’ve been on it and it is absolutely mad right um but so no we decided to Discount that so we decided that the winner um was this was anybody the first person who said Middleton Junction to oldum

Werth uh in Olden which is actually my place of birth Olden you go um which was one in 27 uh and that closed to regular passengers in 1958 and completely in 1966 however somebody else pointed out that the steeper section of adhesion work track in the UK isn’t on National

Rail because we didn’t specify it had to be it’s actually the one in it’s the teachers it’s actually the one in 17 on the dockin light Railway on the tunnel section up from bank to the junction with the tower Gateway branch and of course and tfl confirmed that’s correct

That is one in 17 although they also said they’ve got some other really steep bits as well but um so we’ve got two winners we’ve decided to award a mug to Graham slack who was the first person to correctly say middle conjunction to alen Werth and to at tan

4 um who was the person who correctly pointed out that the dockin light Railway was steeper um so uh tanty 4 please send us an email with details of uh how uh we can send a mug to you that would be great and gram slack if you are

The same Graham slack who used to be the master in charge of the Queen Elizabeth grammar school Railway Society of which I was a Leading Light in the 1980s if you’re still that gr slack sir um then do do do let us know be lovely to reconnect with you I haven’t spoken to

Gr for a very long time uh and um we will get your mug to you as well now two things I have to say that was a thumping good quiz question because there was there was various versions of the truth wasn’t there so we shall have to learn

To frame them properly and the second is I congratulate the two uh winners of mugs because I have to point out that neither Steph or I have got one yet um because you haven’t posted us one and we’re looking forward to seeing one so on behalf of Steph and me can I please

Ask you to get the bubble wrap out and uh oh look there they even now have their own little boxes you can see the mug inside is that how they delivered yeah oh well there’s even less excuse then because it’s easy to parcel up and who knew that a former teacher of mine

Classics master from que Elizabeth’s gram school would end up being the winner so there you go as Woody Allen famously said or supposed to have said it’s a small world but I wouldn’t like to paint it right so this this week’s question oh sorry I was going on then I was know you

Were I was ahead of I’m going to shut up and you do right anyway so this week’s question this week’s question it’s a bit easy this one actually I think which town is reputed to be England’s smallest that also has a railway station oh I have no idea normally I can Hazard a

Guess but I’m completely stumped with that yeah and uh I mean I’m even now going is it smallest by area is it smallest by population I think it’s smallest by area anyway but anyway um so uh yeah usual usual uh patrill um first comment first correct answer however you

Do it um wins the and of course how about this I’m just thinking about this on the hoof um if any of our loyal viewers and listeners have ideas for questions we’d like to see them wouldn’t we what a great idea that would be actually that would be

Really good uh that’d be really good um because it’s usually the thing we do last the night before we record or in this case on the morning recording or something like that but yeah that’s a brilliant idea because with loads of Specialists out there who know yeah um

An awful lot about some really well about the whole subject in VAR little chunks across a pace so if you’ve got a question which you’d like us to um to include then please let us have it use your address yep email or via wherever whichever channel of communication you

Like one of us will pick it up by which I mean Richard or Steph um so let us move on to the um to the our good and positive bits of news one of Chilton’s class 168 trains has been named marban 125 years the anniversary marks 125

Years since the opening of The Great Central Railway on the 15th of March 1899 the last Mainline to arrive in London um and the last I think apart from the colier D Selby diversion bit in I think apart from that it was the last piece of Mainline Railway to be built

Until highspeed one opened um the station was designed by Henry William bradock Civ engineer working for the GCR considered modest in design at the time due to budgetary constraints straints but these days is considered as one of the jewels in the crown of London’s Railways um it nearly wasn’t like that

In the 1980s when I was publishing books I delivered books there by car and drove in through the the arch which is a pedestrian arch in there now the Old Carriage Arch and pulled up literally at the front of the wh Smith stand and handed packets of books to the um

Through the puddles and it was there was hardly anybody about which is why at that time marban was under serious threat of closure conversing to a high-speed busway whereby marban would be converted into a Coach Station British Rail Services ran via High Wickam would have diverted into Paddington and elsbury services would

Have been taken over by London Underground and routed to Baker Street and in fact that’s one of the things that scuppered it wasn’t it because increased Community commuter services to Paddington and Baker Street used up the capacity that would have been used to divert the stuff from uh from marbin

Although there were plans formally announced on 15th of March 1984 enclosure notices were posted at the station very controversial and face strong opposition from local authorities and The Wider public leading to a legal battle which lasted for two years it proved impractical due to the Headroom limitations on the line for the buses

And the closure was quietly dropped Peter Parker commissioned that Serv and he got some criticism that but I think he would being quite clever he probably knew there’d be an absolute uproar and it’ be chucked out as a result what do you think oh he was a smart fellow that that wouldn’t surprise

Me in the slightest okay and of course under BR under Network soueast upgraded the line and then subsequently Chilton trains expanded capacity even further with the various Evergreen projects and the idea now that marban nearly closed is probably inconceivable to many of commuters today but it very nearly

Happened so happy birthday Marb 125 what say you yeah fantastic you can’t imagine just how um how different it is today I remember it in the 80s and it was was a a smoky Grim place it was not but one of the reason what one of the byproducts of

That because it was Smokey grim and quiet was it was a popular location for film and TV makers I think the IP Crest file ad with Michael Kan had scenes there and wasn’t one of the Beatles films was it help was was filmed at Marin so it frequently cropped up in

Movies before my time before my time Nel the Battle of Hastings was before my time Richard but I’ve still heard of it you know right that really is all we’ve got time for this week thanks so much for for watching or listening we adore having your company um and Richard Steph

And I really really love putting these pods together so thanks for all your feedback keep it coming we like to see it um don’t forget to give us a thumbs up leave a comment and if you haven’t already subscribe to the channel on YouTube and that’s it for another week

We’ll be back same time same channel next week so it’s goodbye from me and and from here in Wilshire it’s goodbye from me in Wilshire okay thanks for being with us in wilcher we’ll see you next Week D