Liam Wallis, is the founder of HIP V HYPE, a design agency in Melbourne that helped design, fund and build the first Nightingale project apartments in Melbourne’s Brunswick. These apartments are designed from the start to be carbon neutral, healthier, and cheaper places to heat. He talks to Bernard Hickey about the number of times the air changes every hour in a normal house (20), and how often the air changes in a home like the ones built in the Nightingale projects. Liam is in Auckland, Christchurch and Wellington this week delivering the annual Sir Ian Athfield Memorial Lecture for the New Zealand Institute of Architects in Auckland.
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Diversify a bank that adapts with technology through the lens of its people and customers it is a bank with heart that is driven by its purpose kiwi making kiwi better Off do you know how many times the air changes in your house every hour turns out I had no idea and this week on when the facts Chang we’re going to find out how many times the air in your house changes on average for a normal standard
100y old house turns out it could change 20 times in an hour no wonder things can get a bit drafty and cold and moldy at times in Alo housing stock 20 times an hour the air goes in and it goes out turn off the the heater and within 15
Minutes you’ve got a cold house but just imagine if you had a home where the air only changed twice per hour and it was controlled in a way and cleaned this is all about how you design a house with the right sort of thermal envelope that’s the word I’ve learned in
This week’s episode a thermal envelope for a home this week we speak to Liam Wallace he’s a founder of hipv hype a design company in Melbourne and his firm worked on the creation of a bunch of apartments in Brunswick in inner Melbourne for those who are familiar
With Melbourne it’s the sort of groovy Cuba Street Style part of Melbourne and it’s a fantastic place to wander around and there are so many apartment buildings that look like great places to live and one of them is the n Andale project which is a not for-profit sustainable net carbon zero set of
Buildings that were designed with people in mind and not the profits of a developer it meant for example that the two bedroom departments only have one bathroom and they don’t have stone top benches or car Parks turns out that’s what you normally need to do or that’s
What the real estate agents thought they needed to do or to have to flick some apartments onto the market and Sprint away they thought you needed two bedrooms two bathrooms Stone top benches and car Parks turns out a lot of people don’t necessarily want to live that way
Particularly in places like in a city of Melbourne and you’d hope places like inner city ockland and Wellington that there is decent public transport and people can walk around and cycle around and scooter around not necessarily having a car and they want to live in a
Home where it doesn’t use too much power to heat it or to cool it down that’s naturally comfortable that’s what we’re going to talk about this week on when the fact change how to build an apartment that is not only carbon neutral but reduces the cost of heating
And cooling is healthier and is part of our community we really need these homes and it’s a real struggle at the moment to convince a whole bunch of people in up and down this m to that we need lots and lots and lots of these zeroc carbon medium density homes that are within
Walking distance of schools and workplaces and all of the things you need to live in a city like in a city Melbourne where many new zealanders are choosing to go at the moment because they can’t get the sort of homes that are being built in places like Brunswick
Certainly not in Wellington which is in my view a tragedy of a place that has one of the lowest building consent rates in the country and its most famous resident just spent millions of dollars to make sure some houses weren’t built we really need to build lots of homes
Affordable homes that don’t produce emissions in the long run that are good places to live and don’t necessarily cost the Earth this week on when the fact change we talked to Liam Wallace about how he and a bunch of other people in Melbourne did it the sorts of things
They have to think about in particular the thermal envelope in trying to build these homes and he talks about some of the things that are needed to make it happen for example the carbon tax which they don’t have in Australia and certainly we should be thinking about
Something like that here too given that our ETS doesn’t seem to work very well he also talks about the need for regulation just to make sure that people actually have to try to build their homes with a decent thermal envelope so that there are only two air changes per
Hour this week on when the facts change well welcome to Wi the facts change to Liam Wallace who’s speaking to us from Melbourne great to see you Liam thanks Bernett lovely to be here now tell us about the night Andale projects these apartments that you helped develop
And design and invest in what do they look like for someone in in New Zealand who’s thinking about apartments and inner city developments tell us about the night Andale project yeah look the the N Andale model Project’s got a really interesting history um back back in Brunswick uh there there was an
Original project called The Commons that had been developed by a developer called small Giants uh and the architect behind that project a company called breathe and um the protagonist of the story Jeremy McLoud uh had had been really the driving force behind this idea of building better quality more sustainable
Apartments uh located close to where people wanted to be essentially um and that project just really is the Catalyst for uh both the nting G model and a number of other uh similar projects that have emerged particularly in Melbourne uh here in Australia over the past you
Know five to 10 years um so really that project demonstrated that some of the traditional advice that had been waving its way through the development industry around what consumers wanted and how that was being delivered to developers and then and then working its way into built form but perhaps might not be
Exactly what a consumer cohort wanted um so a good example of that is the old adage from a real estate agent that a two-bedroom apartment must have two bathrooms and um and and and uh and you must have a car and and and you must have have stone bench tops and just just
These kind of ideas that that perhaps you know helped real estate agents to sell the first few and uh apartments in any given projects to make their money and and and off they went off off into the Horizon so really the commons was defined by a first principles based
Approach to apartment living How could an apartment building be designed to feel like a home um and bringing bringing materiality and and the way that you circulate through the building um really to the Forefront in in the way that we think about kind of commercial scale six seven eight story buildings um
Bringing you in the front door Timber Windows uh letter boxes off to the side glazed stairwells really this idea of reduction too um could could we could we include Less in the building but in a more considered way you know to reduce I guess the embodied carbon piece uh in
The projects so that that was the Catalyst and so um give us a sense of you know what you ended up with so if it’s not a two-bedroomed two B apartment with stone bench tops and a car park what do you get you know I think two two
Bedrooms with a single bathroom then opens up more space for a living area um so instead of we we like to say instead of having two bathrooms where you can’t hardly dry yourself without hitting your elbows on the walls um you’re getting a genuine kind of family-sized bathroom
But then taking that the area of that second bathroom and putting it back into your living area so you know your your dining table’s not sitting on top of on top of your living area as an example so it’s just that spatial planning piece um you know the way that landscape
Integrates in with apartment layouts and and and focusing much more in the way that landscape integrates into the apartment layout the principles that enable you to get your biggest bang for buck in terms of sustainability performance so um the way in which apartments are are orientated um making
Sure that west facing windows in the southern hemisphere are are screened um you know you get get huge amounts of heat load through west facing Windows you want to make sure they’re screened adequately um you know fronting Apartments as best as possible to Northern aspects to maximize the
Benefits of of solar heat gain sun in Winter making sure that Sun’s screened in uh in summer really limiting that heat gain and and setting up the ability to have really comfortable apartments that use less energy and um you know really do contribute to the the health and well-being outcomes of their
Occupants so how did you minimize the carbon footprint in the building of uh these apartments because it’s something that hasn’t been talked about much in the past there’s been some more and more talk about you know how much energy the building uses while it’s alive so to
Speak but the actual embedded carbon how did you think about that what did you do that was different yeah look embod embodied carbon is sort of an ongoing task I think at the very beginning of the Ning G model and and other projects that we’ve been associated with our real
Focus was on 100% electric buildings so we’re really tack tackling the operational carbon piece so there’s really two parts to that you you use passive design principles to get a really efficient thermal envelope um an envelope that uses less energy essentially to heat and cool AP ments
Can you give us an idea of what those principles are yeah so thermal envelope so window placements window sizes um insulation to walls thermal mass is is a big one so avoiding um sun in particularly hotter months hitting big bits of concrete that absorbs heat energy and and then releases it uh later
In in the day you you you want to be designing in a way that encourages uh that that thermal energy to come in your envelope during winter but in summer you really want to want to exclude that from your internal envelope how do you do that because you know well Melbourne is
A bit like Wellington in a way you know four seasons in one day you know that’s that’s the thing uh and it can be quite cold in winter but of course on those sunny days in summer and the idea that you’ve got the same building it’s not
Like it can get up on its feet and turn around or anything how do you make sure that the sun warms it up in winter but doesn’t um blow it out in summer yeah look it’s it’s a really good question and it comes down to Sun angles so in
Summer the sun sits higher uh in Winter the sun sits lower so in Winter the sun angle will penetrate further into a building opening in summer the sun angles a lot steeper so you can use uh external um shading elements and they can be angled in a way that can prevent
Summer Sun from entering a building envelope and in Winter um the sun will actually come in below those shading elements so you can have static elements that that really you know encourage those um those qualities um throughout the year and um you say that they’re 100% um uh renewable energy um what does
What does that mean does that mean um solar panels or how how do you do it yeah look we so there’s a reduction piece so by building a really efficient envelope you get a reduction in energy use um so we’ve got a thing called naters here in Australia which is an
Energy rating uh um legisla energy rating um minimum standard is six stars uh we’re building apartments to eight and a half Star Plus um the difference in energy use to just to give you an idea between a six-star an apartment and an eight and a half star apartment is
About 50% less energy um in aggregate through the year so it’s a significant reduction um in Heating and Cooling energy um that’s the first piece so you want to reduce the second piece is um we have a a legislative um definition of renewable energy here in Australia
Called grain power so what we do with our Apartments is set up an embedded Network um the embedded Network bulk purchases grein power and then um we submeter within the project so we meter the use of each particular apartment and in some instances where we have electric vehicles we can submeter the electric
Vehicle use as well and just every month um an occupant or resident gets their electrical Billet will tell them how much energy their electric vehicles used how much energy they’ve used for heating and cooling how much energy they’ve used for hot water and then in in addition to
That how much energy um how much benefit they’ve they’ve received from um solar panels on the roof um that we install and the solar panels typically it’s an interesting one on inner city sites because you’ve usually got quite small Footprints quite small roof area so the solar energy that can
You can generate is typically around 10% on a standard inner city site so 10% of the buildings used throughout a year can be generated on site um you use thermal efficiency based principles to reduce up to 50% of the total demand and the balance um you bulk purchase green power
And that that enables the building to be a carbon neutral in operation um the embodied piece is all about materiality so it’s all about what material you use where they come from how they’re transported uh and that is that is ongoing so we know that concrete is one
Of the um the worst culprits um the processes that go into making concrete are are very carbon intensive it’s one of the built environment’s largest contributors to um Global emissions uh and so there are moves towards low carbon concrete Alternatives there some quite exciting emerging Technologies
There I recently went on a study tour to Norway and Sweden we were looking exclusively at Timber buildings um Timber being a renewable resource that’s actually a carbon sink um is a really great way to get significant reductions in embodied carbon unfortunately uh in Australia in particular I’m not sure of the New
Zealand um regulatory context but our fire related regulations really inhibit um apartments in particular being built out of Timber I kind of Wonder though cuz the physics of fire in Australia and the physics of fire in Sweden and Norway are the same right we’re living on the
Same planet and yet um their fire regulations are able to support uh extensive um built form outcomes in Timber significant reductions in embodied carbon and yet we’re still unable to quite get our head around that um I think there’s an opportunity for some change there for sure yes and
There’s a bunch of people in New Zealand and I’m sure in Australia who grow a lot of trees who’d quite like to see them um House people uh rather than just sit there that that was one of the most amazing things I saw in Sweden on this
Trip where they they really have had the Swedish forestry Act is a really interesting piece of legislation that’s encourag the responsible management and um and growth of Sweden’s forests and through time they’ve managed to develop a ver vertically integrated um uh supply chain Timber industry
And one one of the outputs to that is they they’re the third largest um uh Timber supplier in the world and and and that then sets them up to be leaders in in Timber buildings at scale and just what what they’re doing um in off-site manufacturing Advanced Manufacturing Technologies and and and significant
Reductions in embodied carbon within their built environment really is worth looking more closely at we feel I’m always interested in this podcast to look at the economics of uh what ever we’re talking about and I’m guessing as a developer and investor uh you you have to think about
You know can I build this thing and make a buck and often the business models and the economics of building determine how much fun they are to live in and uh how much money you have to spend on heating or uh whether or not you have to have a car all of those
Sorts of things I’m curious because this idea of medium density living affordable apartments is something we we struggled with to be honest in New Zealand and uh we’re sort of jealous of some of the developments that have happened in Australia uh inner city Sydney and Melbourne could you talk
About some of the challenges you had to negotiate to get these 22 apartments in the night Andale project built because as you suggested at the beginning with the real EST estate agents saying they had to be two bedroom two bathro with car and all that um how did you sort of
Rework the economics so that you people could have these apartments which are low energy for the long run I.E there’s a lower long run cost which sometimes doesn’t always get built into the price of uh any any apartment how how did you organize the economics for this project
Yeah look the the economics are fundamental I guess that’s the that that gets to the very heart of of who who we are what what our business H versus S is and what we’re seeking to achieve and the way in which we’re going about that
So for us it it really comes down to the the detail right the devil’s in the detail we look for very specific sites we we would say that it is not possible to necessarily build a very high performing uh apartment commercially on any block of land in the city it takes
It takes a par particular block of land we look for we look for blocks of land that enable us to really get the best bang for buck from passive design principles that we spoke about earlier so when we buy the right block of land with the right Frontage North facing
Frontage um is is a great attribute we’re able to really Leverage The passive design principles and working in collaboration with the architects in detail with our sustainability team we do detailed energy modeling analysis daylight modeling analysis when we’re looking to purchase sites and through that process we have just developed an
Approach to the sites that we buy that enables us to deliv to to basically reduce the cost that that it takes us to build significantly higher performing apartments and that’s that’s a key to our model that that answer doesn’t necessarily solve the city’s problems but it it does say something to you know
The way we think about where we where we reone and where we ENC um greater density and and why and how the how the city and planners can play a role in seeking to reduce the economic cost of better quality higher performing apartments and we do we do think there’s
A role there for the city it’s very complicated and it’s in the detail but again you know our business we we’re we’re a development business but we also have our sustainability consultancy that sits alongside us so we have Green Building engineers in our team who can run that detailed analysis and we take
An it ative approach and feedback loops are a big part of our process so when learnings from previous projects are fed into design briefing for future projects so we seek to capture that knowledge and and insert that into uh future projects and really that enables us to effectively close the economic Gap to
Achieve significantly higher performance um at at a at at a at a more reasonable cost essentially can you give us an idea of uh one of those feedback loops that you talk about and how you’re able to use that again and again yeah look a great example of feedback loops is um so
The latest project that we’ve just completed for our in York in South Melbourne uh We’ve the the Project’s been complete now for uh just on 12 months our sustainability team of Green Building Engineers have been undertaking a piece of post occupancy research so we’ve had indoor environment quality sensors in
Apartments uh they have been running non-stop now for 12 months they are measuring um temperature humidity carbon dioxide uh particul noise light levels uh so they’re all measures of indoor environment quality um we correlate that against energy performance um we check actual energy performance against modeled energy performance um and
Actually the team are are writing up a piece of research that’ll be presented down in Hobart um to a building science conference later in the year but what we’re seeking to do is actually see how the building will perform against uh future climate models so as we expect
Global temperatures to increase how do these high performance Apartments perform when the the climate’s warmer and we have more extreme Heatwave events um more extreme climatic events how would we expect these Apartments to operate when the power goes off during a heat wve as an example what would we
Expect to see uh in terms of how the apartments perform from a resilience perspective and you know the modeling suggests that it’s it’s positive and that’s another one of the added benefits for building better quality buildings you know in these more extreme events occupants are protected and that has
Real and tangible public health benefits you know you and I are probably okay but you know when you start to look at occupants either the elderly or the sick or the young who have significantly more narrow um thermal Comfort bands we we we call it you know the power going off
During a heat wave is uh can be terminal so it’s pretty real and and these buildings um do have what it’s what it takes to withstand those sort of Events when the fact change is brought to you in partnership with kiwi Bank to help you understand the issues affecting the economy and that’s what their team of experts is here to do too here’s Ki Bank Economist Sabrina Delgado on what’s happening with the labor market in now
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Course past performance does not guarantee future returns can you give us a sense of you know how these buildings that you’re doing now and that you were testing um with sensors after how they’re different from let’s say a 100y old apartment in a city apartment in terms of you know
Let’s say we we heat the planet to 3° and you know we have 45° cus days we’ve going to have an alino this summer and we’ve seen in July and August in the northern hemisphere temperatures extraordinary levels I think it was Madrid or Barcelona had to
Put out a warning and hand out bottles of water and all sorts of crazy things and a sense of how your new buildings are coping with that versus old buildings yeah it’s pretty real isn’t it like we you know the last 10 20 30 years like as long as I can remember anyway
We’ve we’ve had these predictions and we’ve been told and you know have watching watching shows like extrapolations and um it it does feel like we’re living uh we’re living right in the middle of all of this right now the biggest difference between what we’re doing and how buildings would have
Been built a 100 years ago and I hear this argument all the time you know the old buildings are better and they they better quality and blah blah blah blah blah it’s just it’s not right so we we we work on Concepts around airtightness and so the the more airtight we build
The more we can control the indoor environment quality of a building and we use a system called it’s mechanical ventilation essentially that we use systems called energy recovery ventilation units what they do is because the apartments are so airtight we’re we’re achieving below two air changes per hour your standard 100 100
Year old home might be 20 the entire volume of the house will change by that number in an hour um so that gives you an idea of why in those old houses when you turn the heater off in the middle of winter within 15 minutes the house is
Cold because literally the entire volume of that house is leaking outside and when that heat is on you’re essentially heating outside the home with with the apartments that we build because they’re airtight and we have the energy recovery ventilation system running that’s a passive system it runs all the time very
Low low wattage doesn’t use much energy but it brings fresh air in and that fresh air coming in is filtered goes through a filter and then it goes through a heat exchange so the air going out the stale air that’s expelled high in CO2 high in humidity that’s expelled
Passes the air coming in and it exchanges its heat energy you get a lower Delta right so the the temperature of the air actually coming into your apartment might be 5° below internal temperature so then your heating system um and in a lot of cases not even your
Heating system just the fact that you’re cooking uh an apartment occupied the TV’s on a computers on the lights are on that they all emit heat energy and when you start to build below one air change per hour um which is the German passive house standard uh and you’re installing
Energy recovery ventilation system with doors and windows closed in the middle of winter you don’t need a heater if the house is properly occupied and and this is the biggest difference so could you ever imagine a 100y old home not requiring Heating and being at a stable temperature above 20° without Heating in
The middle of winter and these are the sorts of results that we’re seeing from the apartment project that we’ve just finished for oen York um so we’re we’re we’re achieving that standard and we’re seeing those sorts of results I’m curious about the economics of this because uh sometimes you make changes
Like this and it means the actual upfront cost of building a home might be more than you know a a not airtight building uh without the heat exchanges and on the face of it if you’re an apartment buyer or a seller uh you you want to um sell it for the most and
Build it for the least and uh also from a a buyer’s point of view you want the cheapest apartment you can get but uh sometimes in these economic models the actual benefits in the long run of low heating costs or low cooling costs are not in a way embedded into the price and
So you end up with this perverse incentive to build frankly cheap and nasty homes because they’re the ones that sell and give you the best margin but how how do you work through that from your point of view and how does it is does do the incentives into the
Markets the market way of doing things does it work yeah look there’s different segments within the property industry I guess the build to diverse space so when you build and sell there’s obviously uh it becomes a lot more difficult to Jus ify we’ve we’ve built a brand and
Approach whether it be with nyale or HIIT V height we’ve built a brand and an approach that’s hung our hat on delivering better quality outcomes to our purchases and that’s what our purchases expect our challenge is to deliver that quality at a price that our purchasers can afford that’s a real
Challenge it’s something we take really seriously uh it does cost more um we do our very best uh with feedback loops in the Li and passive design principles to really reduce that cost and reduce that margin we don’t price gou we seek to accept a reasonable profit we believe in
The power of business but we believe in a in a rebalanced approach to I I guess the The Profit incentive so you know people Planet prosperity and seeking a more balanced approach somewhere in the middle we think is is a more sustainable approach longer term uh in saying that in saying
All of that though what what is really interesting at the moment is asset classes so what we’re seeing a lot of in Australia at the moment is build to rent you know and other asset classes like Age Care health education where a developer owner operator is one in the
Same and that’s particularly interesting because the capital expenditure piece is well and truly offset by the operational cost savings so um we we’ve actually done the modeling off one one of the two bedroom apartment in faren York and you know the annual saving in real terms is
You in the order of $300 for the apartment but if you were to extrapolate that out across a 2 and a half th000 Bill to rent uh 2 and a half th000 apartment Bill to rent portfolio you know over a 10year period you looking at Circa $10 million savings so you you
Know if the capital expenditure is 1 to2 million we say in the order of 5% um you know it’s you’re well and truly seeing the the value through that 10 discounted cash flow valuation at at year 10 and the economic imperative is there for you to increase your capital expenditure it
Is more difficult when you’re building and selling and it takes we we say it takes building a brand from the ground up that has sustainability um in inherently uh embedded in its approach for the market more broadly we just need to see um legislative settings ratchet up you know
Unfortunately we’ve been through a process here in Australia where’ we’ve had quite a long period of stagnation with regard to the National Construction code the NCC 2022 sees a significant performance leap and what we’ve just seen from our governments is a number of governments delay the implementation of
NCC 22 by in excess of six months it should have already been implemented and you know that’s just however many homes get built between now and when nc22 is implemented we’re just seeing those significantly poorer energy saving outcomes and health and well-being outcomes locked into those assets for
The next 50 years buildings last for 50 years you know so every building we build that isn’t to the increased performance standard will be using more energy more carbon and the occupants will be susceptible to uh the impacts of climate change more than they should have been and unfortunately the the
Arguments being made you know by the industry more broadly on an economic basis we’re dealing with increased costs we don’t need the the burden of additional increased costs we can’t we can’t afford it the industry can’t handle it and at at what cost do we make
Those decisions I I think I think um it’s a very short-term View and um we we definitely do need um standard support and businesses like ours we exist to demonstrate to Market that the better quality is possible our sustainability consultancy exists to share that knowledge out to Market it’s scale
That’s part of our impact piece we we we undertake relatively small projects ourselves directly but we’re very open with our IP and learning part of our impact piece is to share that learning more broadly and to work with suppliers and the like to build to build the skill
Base um and to educate people as to the benefits of building better such that that they as consumers can demand more from the market just finally Liam sometimes I ask people what they would do if they were the king if if you were able to you know change
The laws make decisions about you know big infrastructure Investments it change the rules around tax and the likes with the knowledge that our aim is to provide everyone with an affordable safe place to be that’s carbon zero and maybe won’t cook the planet what would you do you
Mentioned the uh the the wood framed buildings and the fire regulations that sounds like one thing secondly your new regulations the ones that have being delayed put them in on time but what else would you do ah the big one that’s missing is a is a price on carbon
Carbon’s an externality it’s the reason we in this mess we don’t price the impact and the the true cost of the pollution that we emit yeah that that’s the big one right like if that if that happened tomorrow all of a sudden there’d be pressure on the fire regul regulations to support Timber
Construction right like it it would flow through in that way and all of a sudden it would put pressure on business as usual with Concrete Construction all of a sudden there’s an impetus for the tech the emerging Technologies to get the funding they need to scale up we already
Have uh really great examples of low carbon concrete but it’s an inertia piece right so in Melbourne there’s I think there’s two batching plants that that actually produce low carbon concrete so the industry the inertia would be overcome with with an effective price on carbon uh that’s the big one um the
Second one for me and and it relates to affordability and we we bang our heads up against this one all the time sort of just this idea that density is bad and there’s a fortunate cohort in our cities that own property and have done so for a
Long time they’ve done very well out of owning that property and they’re not particularly open to to change and that is inhibiting our ability to effectively upgrade our cities for the low carbon future the the more affordable low carbon future the more connected low carbon future that I I think my
Generation and the generations below me require in order for our economies to to be effective in the 21st century and beyond the idea that the white picket fence should be protected at the expense of future Prosperity is one of the biggest issues of our time in my in my opinion it it is
Killing us so what do you say to you know your uncle or guy who’s in your squash club or someone who is in this position they’re living in the picket fence in a city Standalone single story home and they’ve just voted in a counselor to to stop uh
Tfic or they’ve uh signed a petition to uh stop the uh car Parks being taken away or whatever what do you what do you say to them you know over over a beer or a coffee I look I get it because it’s it’s not as if you know the development
Industry is shrouded itself in in in positive examples that we can point to there are there are plenty of examples of of what we shouldn’t be building unfortunately they’re the majority of of examples that we can point to but I I do think though that
That um we spend a lot of time in the way that we think about planning in sort of protecting against those lowest common denominator outcomes and we don’t spend nearly enough time thinking about how we can incentivize best practice because I got to talk a lot about this
At the end of the day most developers the the speculators they’re they experts at getting from A to B in the in the quickest way possible that’s essentially the skill set you need to be a good developer unfortunately but so if if you send a signal like the projects that
That that we’ve been involved in that you know a seven and a half star minimum Benchmark uh can achieve all of these really great outcomes and hey there’s a market of people that really want to buy this and Global interest in this idea you you should have seen how quickly the
Average development changed in the inner north of Melbourne all of a sudden your stock standard uh development in the inner north of Melbourne was seeking to voluntarily hit these benchmarks so it was kind of that copycat result and that’s powerful so and that’s why I argue for why why we we should be
Thinking about how we can better incentivize best practice because those best practice outcomes that seek to move forward if they can be supported we’ll get more of them and the more we have the more we can demonstrate to the to the broader base of the market that there’s consumer demand and this stuff
Works we’ll get more of it and our cities will be the the better for that leam Wallace thank you very much for being on when the effects change thanks very Much when the fact chains was brought to you by the spin-off podcast Network together with kiwi Bank visit kiwi bank.co NZ to find out how kiwi Bank are making kiwi better off Ready to ReDiscover the joys of cycling with over 300 kilm of cycle paths across Tamaki Makoto jumping on your bike and going for a ride is such a fun way to discover the city from a different perspective cycling is getting more and more popular across Oakland so now’s a
Great time to join the hype and give cycling a go head to at. gt/ cycling to find your nearest Cycle Way today the spin-off podcast Network