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So for a long time this idea has been floating around to help cyclists it’s called the Idaho stop law or the stop is yield law basically it would allow cyclist to treat stop signs as yield signs because it better reflects the realities and the risks of riding a bike
In a city but it never seems to fly I think because motorists feel like it’s setting two sets of rules and they don’t like that but I’m here in Paris and there’s a version of it here that I found interesting it’s this sign basically it means if this bike light is
Red but it’s clear and safe and the sign is posted as a you can proceed so it’s not every intersection it’s not a blanket law it’s just in specific locations where it makes sense so this might be a bit more palatable to everybody I don’t know what do you think
46 Comments
I'm a cyclist in Colorado, which has an Idaho stop/"Safety stop" law. Unfortunately there have been several incidents where motorists have gotten irrationally angry at me for following the law when I roll through a stop sign. I think this stems from motorists not knowing of the law or understanding why the law exists — it seems counterintuitive that not stopping is safer, even if it is backed up by data, so motorists assume I'm just being an asshole.
It works very well here (Paris), we have both right turn and proceed straight arrows. On Rue de Rivoli there are a number of pedestrian lights that you can proceed through if there are no pedestrians. I always look for the arrows!
There are lots of T-junctions in Canada where there is no need to halt cyclists and where cyclists might be allowed to conserve their momentum.
I like them as it's useful to have a proper notice when an intersection's design makes it safe to go forward. Or inversely, if the sign isn't there I assume I'd rather wait it out.
Though it is something of a general problem that cyclists run lights regardless of the sign being there or not, or regardless of the way being clear. A few times while crossing the street I've been grazed by an ebike going full speed. It's a hierarchy I guess. When I cycle I know I'm far lighter and slower than a car, but I remind myself I'm still heavier and far faster than a pedestrian.
We have this in Colorado. We call it the Safety Stop law. It's really good for us. https://www.codot.gov/safety/traffic-safety-pulse/2022/may/all-about-the-colorado-safety-stop
In Germany we have green arrows at intersections telling you, you can turn right after stopping and yielding, even if the traffic light is red.
In Bonn they've started putting them up exclusively for bikes at many intersections. Really awesome and super cheap improvement 😊 you still have to stop (fair enough) but at least you don't have to wait for green.
Utah recently passed the so-called Idaho stop law. Seems to be just fine, no driver pushback I have noticed. Of course bicycles & drivers should have different & appropriate infra & rules. Throttled ebikes may be muddying the water but for another chat. Vehicular cycling was one of the worst policies ever, it set the US back decades. Honestly it is more efficient for all if cyclists can keep some momentum at intersections when clear. Also, given rampant rolling through stops & red lights, red light running, failure to yield and all the other bad car driver behavior its false projection to focus on cyclists rolling though stops. Better yet, remove most unnecessary stop signs and make them all yields at low volume intersections. Or roundabouts with both car & bike lanes. So many better options that the current traffic code status quo in most US states. Looking forward to getting back to Paris to check out all the progress. Merci!
It's technical name is an M-12 sign. It allows for cyclists to proceed in the same direction as the arrow through an intersection when facing a red light. (Of course while yielding right of way to pedestrians)
Lots of butt hurt motorists gonna cry at this.
Ffs just one day I'd like to see a motorist make a complete stop at an intersection.
How can you bitch when you dont even follow the rules yourself?
I really like this idea. Generally, a cyclist is not going to ride recklessly through a red light, so I do think the Idaho stop works. But the French approach adds an additional layer of safety, only allowing certain directions to be treated as 'give way' on a red light.
There is a youtube video on it from the French Transport department titled 'red lights: trust cyclists'.
I do an Idaho stop here in Ohio and don't seem to have any issues yet! I do a full stop if cars are present.
We have this in Seattle and it's great.
As someone who hasn't lived here long and has been many places in the US people do it whether or not it's allowed tbh. So I think it's a bit moot.
Also being a person who has been able to transition from car dependency to most often bike commuter, it's amazing how wrong I was about my world view before doing this. I discovered that bikes and cars simply have to follow different rules because the same environment (streets) are not made for both. A car can do a ton of damage. It can't easily bail to the edge or sidewalk as it's too big. It can accelerate way faster making it less predictable. The list of reasons why they can't use the same exact rules of the road is endless.
One day when bikes are the dominant form of transportation it will become important to have really specific traffic rules for bikes but for today they make up such a minority of traffic that they need the flexibility to sort of do as they feel fit so that they can survive in situations like when a bike line abruptly ends with no where else to go.
Yes !
In Denmark it's illegal to swing right at red traffic lights, although it is fairly common practice, particularly if you can go from 1 bike lane to another, as you don't get to interact with car traffic. You do however get to interact with other cyclists and pedestrians in cross-walks, and as a life long avid cyclist and with a fairly laissez-faire attitude towards traffic rules i found myself in unsafe situations several times, where i thought i was aware of my surrounding, but i wasn't. Only luck saved me and my victims from accidents. I'm otherwise very competent and aware in the traffic. And have ridden 10.000s of km since my last last accident as a teenager. I think my overconfidence almost cost a couple of accidents, from lack of vision and awareness. And I remember, making a "late" swing too, with perpendicular traffic. It's not the safest practice, that's for sure. In my 20's i would ride straight across red lights if there where no traffic. Now I take no risks and have no reason to rush, my "Alleycat ego" has dwindled. I have a kid, and traffic is not to messed with, even in Denmark.
We have the Idaho Stop Law in Boulder. It works fine and doesn't seem to upset the drivers. In fact, I suspect that they like that the bikes are out of the way when the light turns green.
The only drawback about the Paris approach is that intelligent thought is required of public officials 😀 And that's always in short supply
Often in France, bikes are allowed to go 'the wrong way' on one way streets. So much more sensible than the UK. The Idaho stop law sounds great. So many cars complain of bikes jumping red lights because 'its dangerous '.
I hate riding in a city when i have to stop and wait a light turns green when there is no traffic, this would change that. I often drive like nobody can see me. And that is basically a official version of that
Imagine having different rules for different vehicles.
Motorists mad at a double standard: Lets enforce turn signals, people parking/stopping in unlawful places (bike lanes or sidewalks in particular), and not yielding to pedestrians to cite a few. Then we can talk about double standards.
So basically a right turn on red “rechtsaf voor fietsers vrij”
Maybe in a society where people are a bit more rule abiding. Parisian cyclists however run through these as if they’re on a race and endanger people with kids. So now pedestrians can’t trust their own green lights.
No exceptions just one rule for all!
This just seems to be an extension of the rule for cars turning right. The French allow this if there's an amber light flashing.
That said, it's not clear if this would allow cyclists to go straight ahead through red lights. Unless it's a left turn only junction where again, it makes sense to allow cyclists to proceed even without segregation.
That sign is common all over Europe, especially in the Netherlands and Belgium. We've had those for years now.
Also, stop signs are much more uncommon here. Mostly yield signs are used instead. Stop signs are only used in very dangerous situations where visibility is limited. Any regular intersection just has yield signs or no signs at all meaning priority from the right by default. In fact I believe Paris removed it's last stop sign in the city centre a few years ago.
The overuse of stop signs in N-america is just another symptom of the unsafe road design standards used there, and don't really do anything to improve safety. Instead a less wide and protected intersection design would be far more effective.
I thought Idaho Stop only applied to Stop signs, not traffic lights.
Number of fatal accidents caused by motor vehicles last year 3.8 million. Number of fatal accidents caused by bicycles last year, less than 10. Bikes don't need stop signs to be safe, cars do.
It always amazes me how some people can't see that bicycles and motor vehicles have very different characteristics and so laws of their operation should not be identical in all situations. When it comes to "Idaho stop" for example, bicycles are moving much slower, they're lighter, and their riders have far greater field of view than drivers – it makes it much easier and safer to make a judgment about turning safely.
I like this idea in Paris. We have a bike lane in Brisbane where it crosses a pedestrian crossing. The engineers made it a full red light for bikes same as cars. Often you'll be waiting for 20-30 seconds well after pedestrians have cleared. Theres a good case in situations like that to allow bicycles to continue with caution – but no, engineers here can't get their head around bikes and cars being different.
One day maybe.
It's called a M12 sign.
Though there's a city in Paris suburbs that has put M12's on every stoplight, effectively turning all of them into yield signs.
I honestly thought the "Idaho stop law" would have something to do with firearms.
Auto drivers treat stop signs as yield signs where I live. I haven’t seen a car stop at one for several years.
I’m not clear at all on how that would work other than possibly at major intersections and if it were implemented I’m pretty sure all drivers would see in my city is the red light for cyclists and they would not understand or even consciously see that other tiny little sign.
In Washington, DC we now have the Idaho stop. We also have stop signs, not lights, at every intersection. This is to slow drivers down because essentially drivers do not follow speed limits and police do not enforce them in the city. All drivers believe that 25 mph is to be interpreted as 35 mph legally and more if you can get away with it. In other words we have a totally different mentality and infrastructure in North America than in Europe. There is NO required driver training/education, just a one time test.
The Idaho stop isn’t perfect, but without a major change in mentality, which you confess isn’t present in North America because drivers think the Idaho stop is unfair, I don’t see how a tiny sign is going to mean anything to American drivers.
Paris has changed the whole nature of infrastructure and car-centric culture. That’s not happening here yet. News reports still emphasize pedestrian responsibilty as the primary fix. Get brighter clothes, don’t look at your cell phone – none of those things actually work if a line of cars is turning left through a lit crosswalk. All they see is the car in front of them and that “tells them” that it’s safe to proceed. We have had 10 pedestrian deaths in Virginia this year and the media only stresses pedestrian responsibility. If they interview someone who does understand the legal responsibilities of drivers, the media doing the interviewing will still reinterpret the message as chiefly pedestrian responsibility. They are either ignorant or purposefully bought and sold. Until there are some basic changes in the capitalist system and aggressive infrastructure changes. a tiny sign will only make things worse than a general proclamation like the Idaho stop. .
We've just got the Idaho stop here in Minnesota, and it's excellent. It's one of the few free things municipalities can do to support cyclists.
I do this anyway. I'm not a car. I'm also not dumb enough to cut off cars or risk my life at busy intersections. Big roads with lots of cars and traffic lights get my obedience. 4-way stops in neighborhoods get a quick look, and I keep rolling. If you think it's unfair, start riding a bike. If you think it's unsafe, I'm a grown ass man, and you should focus on your driving.
In general, the US and Canada have way too many stop signs, which in Europe tend to be reserved for the most problematic intersections. If the speed is low and the view is unobstructed, neither motorists nor cyclists actually need stop signs. Just yield to the traffic on your right and proceed through the intersection. That's not rocket science.
Bikes rarely need to stop. It's cars that are the problem and motor bikes.
My main concern with Idaho stops as a motorist is it would mean I'd have to treat every two-way stop like it's a four-way stop, because a cyclist on a cross street could legally run the stop sign in front of me even if I'm in the direction that doesn't stop.
Where do cars not roll through stops? I’ve never seen it anywhere.
I find most drivers are unaware of the stop as yield sign law
Then again, I was doing that anyways before I was legally allowed to
That's basically a "right on red" for cyclists. Stop signs in Europe are usually reserved for locations, where it's important for absolutely everybody to come to a complete stop. And there I see the problem with the "Idaho stop law": While 99% of US stop signs are useless anyway (even for slow driving cars), what's with the other 1%, where you can't see around the corner?
I started riding bikes when I moved to Idaho and just naturally learned to do the Idaho stop at 4-way intersections. I only found out about the law once I started watching channels like yours lol
We have a similar rule at some traffic lights which control sliplanes for all traffic (cars, bikes, horses etc), where the light is red you stop and where it is flashing orange, you basically yield.
Funny how the last cyclist passed through not respecting the arrow saying he can proceed only to the right 😂
Stop signs are for cars
Paris doesn't have stop signs, so intersections wirhout lights essentially allow idaho stops for all vehicles, cars incldued.
Not quite the same, this is essentially a “right turn on red permitted for cyclists” (prohibited by default in Europe unlike North America)
We should have rules that make sense for bikes
Not just rules taken from cars and then imposed on bikes