Author and 2x Dutch Champ, GM Paul van der Sterren on the Peaks and Valleys of a Long Pro Career

This week’s guest is two- time Dutch Champion, eleven-time Olympian, author and former candidate for the World Championship Title, GM Paul Van der Sterren. Paul had an unusual career trajectory, in that after 15+years as a chess professional, his “breakout” year occurred at the age of 37. What happened that year(1993)? That is one of the many questions tackled in his fantastic, newly-translated game collection/memoir In Black and White: The Chess Autobiography of a World Championship Candidate. In New in Chess Magazine, GM Matthew Sadler calls this book “simply the finest chess book I’ve ever read.” After retiring from professional chess, Paul became a meditation teacher. His new book, Mindful Chess, traces the development of his mindfulness practice and offers reflections and tips for chess players interested in the topic. In addition to reflecting on the lessons from these books, Paul shares wonderful stories about his clashes with the Polgar sisters, Korchnoi, Tal and many others. I cannot recommend Paul’s books highly enough, and I think that this interview will give you a good sense of the lessons they contain. Timestamps of topics discussed are below.

0:00- Thanks to our presenting chess education sponsor, Chessable.com. Be sure to check out new courses like FM Dalton Perrine’s The French Simplified. If you use the link below to sign up for Perpetual Chess, it helps to support the pod!
https://www.chessable.com/pro/?utm_source=affiliate&utm_medium=benjohnson&utm_campaign=pro

0:01- Free previews of Paul’s books are available from New in Chess here:
In Black and White
Mindful Chess

0:03- GM Van der Sterren achieved a legendary chess breakthrough in 1993 at age 37 . What changed?

10:30- In his one career Candidates’ match, Paul lost to a young GM Gata Kamsky. How does he reflect on that match now?

16:00- For Chess in Black and White, how did Paul remember so many details from throughout his chess career?

24:00- Aging comes across as a major theme of the book, Chess in Black and White. Was this by design?
Mentioned: GM Matthew Sadler, Sasha Chapin’s All the Moves That Matter, GM Ben Finegold

32:00- Patreon mailbag question:
“What is Paul’s opinion as to why adults struggle to improve at chess?”
Mentioned: The Facebook Chess Book Collector’s Group

41:00- We discuss Mindful Chess. When did Paul become interested in meditation and Western philosophy?

Mentioned; The Bhagavad Gita, Praggnanandhaa, Gukesh, Vidit

50:00- Patreon mailbag question: “Does GM Van der Sterren have any recommendations for connecting psychology and chess?”
Mentioned; Mental Toughness in Chess, The Rider by Tim Krabbe, The Essential Sosonko

55:00- Story time! What was it like to play the young Polgar sisters, Jan Timman, Korchnoi and Jan Timman?

1:22:00- One more Korchnoi story!

1:24:00- Paul discusses his work at the historic Max Euwe Chess Center.
Mentioned: You can help support the Max Euwe via this link:
https://steunactie.nl/actie/het-max-euwe-centrum-gaat-verhuizen-the-max-euwe-centre-is-moving/-29071

1:30:00- Will there be an update to Paul’s excellent opening encyclopedia, Fundamental Chess Openings?

Thanks so much to GM Van der Sterren for joining me!

If you would like to help support Perpetual Chess via Patreon, you can do so here:
https://www.patreon.com/perpetualchess

Hello everyone and welcome back to Perpetual chess listeners I am very excited for our interview this week and we will be introducing our guests in one moment but did want to give a shout out to representing chess education sponsors chess.com they’ve got some greatl looking new courses including tactical

Vision for beginners by Grandmaster Sam Shanklin Shanklin of course is very well reviewed both as a book author and a chessable author in addition to being an amazing player so it’s exciting that he is doing something a little bit geared more towards beginners than his other works there’s also tons of new opening

Courses including one on the alip and Sicilian one on the classical Sicilian by renowned trainer Grandmaster uh Sereno and there’s just so many more so be sure to always take a look at what chessable has to offer and if you sign up for chessable pro using the link in

The show description it will help to support Perpetual chess and you will also get discounts on courses and other types of goodies as for our guest this week I’ve been preparing for this one for a while he’s written some incredible books uh he is also a two-time Dutch Champion a

Many-time Olympian I think it’s 11 uh he’s he turned into in later years a meditation teacher uh for many years he was a renowned opening theoretician who edited the new in chest yearbooks and also wrote the fantastic and popular opening encyclopedia fundamental chess openings the occasion of this particular

Interview is two books that are now widely available or will be shortly by the time this comes out uh number one is a chess Memoir slame collection called in black and white it was originally published in Dutch in 2011 but was recently translated to English by new

And chess like I said soon it will be available everywhere you can already get it on forward chess it’s a detailed and honest chess Memoir it gives a blowby blow of his career from Beginnings all the way through plenty of both chess and life details and in the forthcoming

Issue of new in chess uh in his book review section Grandmaster Matthew Sadler wrote quote I think it’s simply the finest chess book I’ve ever read I read it too and I also thought it was absolutely fantastic so I’m excited to discuss that one but he also has a brand

New book called mindful chess uh after Paul retired from professional chess he got heavily into meditation going on many Retreats and even became a meditation teacher and this book is a concise look back at what he learned from chess from meditating and how he thinks the two relates so we’ve got

Plenty to discuss and I’m honored to Welcome to the program Grandmaster Paul vanderin welcome Paul thank you very much glad to be here yeah excited to chat oh and I forgot one more detail you are the chairman of the max orway Center which we will also be discussing there in

Historic Amsterdam but Paul there’s so much to dig into I’ve been I’ve really I’ve read and greatly enjoyed both of your books and obviously uh they’re different books uh one being sort of like a meditation a sort of big picture look at both chess and mindfulness and

How they relate but then in black and white this broad sweep look at your career that traces both its Peaks and valleys and a sort of slow decision that chess was not captivating you as much as you as it used to as I said greatly enjoyed it but I thought we might start

With what most consider to be the highlight of your career uh at age 37 1993 you had this incredible year you won the Dutch championship for the second time um in you know smashing fashion basically uh won clear of the field and qualified for the candidates

For the only time you would in your career and a lot of people listening most of us are amateur chess players but we’re hoping to have breakthroughs true and too and obviously you write about this at length in your book but sitting here right now you know more than 10

Years after you wrote that book what do you think happened to 1993 well this is perhaps one thing I discovered when I wrote the book uh that uh these things are really inexplainable uh I don’t know what happened it’s a real mystery uh to me uh as

Well um of course it’s very attractive uh to tell yourself uh well of course I have had this fantastic result because I’m a great player so naturally I I should have a success like this at least once in my life uh but that’s just fooling yourself

Um I really don’t know what happened uh probably it had something to do with the very bad year I had before that in 1992 I had quite a few disasters real disasters I mean result wise in in my tournament uh but um what I found what I think I found uh During the

Period I wrote this book is that it’s a natural up and down movement and so you somehow your mind or my mind but I’m pretty sure this is goes for everybody it just goes up and then goes down again and after the very bad results I had in

1992 I was simply due for a great up and uh of course that it would be such a wonderful app and over a very long period of time I couldn’t foresee that at all but um that’s let’s say if if we’re looking for rational explanations then uh I should say it’s

The natural movement of the mind to go up and then go down again then go up then go down again this is what I found over my complete career from about 1970 to 2000s and you wrote in your book that you even at that time you sort of felt

Like this may be the peak um what do you think gave you that perspective whereas I feel like a lot of people even after all those ups and downs as you describe a lot of people might think oh I’ve broken through to a new level but but

You it seemed like you were a little more um a little more modest at that point yeah I’m not sure if it’s a question of being modest um I did feel that I had broken through to a level uh where I hadn’t been before um I never went back I think to

Being the Paul vanderin uh before 1993 but uh I think I also knew what was coming which was uh a dip down again so I was of course bit disappointed when things started to go downhill but by then I had uh I was fully convinced that this was

The natural uh course of events and that uh this uh up and down flow was also what I had to thank for that I went up so high in 1993 but each time I was on a high like that I never came back to the old level

It was always a gradual movement up until of course it became a gradual movement down which happened a few years after that right and you wrote In the book that you were you didn’t even want to mention this at the time because you felt like maybe it’s not perceived as

Something real but you felt like buying a new house and moving may have contributed to to your success in that year uh yes yes uh I mentioned in the book that this is something I never discussed with other chess players because they just wouldn’t believe me or

They wouldn’t want to hear this but external um circumstances uh have a very great influence on your performance as a chess player and I think uh what helped me enormously was that I moved house in 1993 uh which by force cleared my mind uh from everything else for period of

Several weeks and I think this did me a lot of good so this help this was between the Dutch championship and the interzonal tournament in bu where I qualified for the candidates um so it it wasn’t uh it was in between two very good tournaments but it did

Certainly help me to uh to to take my mind off chance to in in a way to relax although moving house isn’t in itself a relaxing event but it relaxed my mind from chance completely so I yes I’m pretty sure that this uh maybe was the decisive factor in

Fact but this is of course something you can’t plan this is this is something you only uh reflect on afterwards you you can’t say okay I’m going to to play a great Tata steel tournament so I’m going to move house first in December that that’s not the way it

Works yeah although there is something uh picking up on your work on mindfulness there’s something about sort of like the act of Letting Go you know the the act of not caring as much because because you’re distracted may may lead to um to a higher high and of

Course in the candidates match you played a young star gotsky uh you lost that match uh the score indicates it’s not that that close but when you go through the games and relive the emotions with you in the book it it was was close what are your

Memories looking back at that match well first I immediately knew that I didn’t have that level anymore of the summer of 1993 um but still I think I had a very decent level and I was playing pretty good uh something it must have been something mental I lost the match

Because there were two games where I was winning one I was just completely winning and the other was also fairly winning uh two games which I lost both by huge one move blunders and uh I think it was that weakness which had come back I mean I throughout my career I’ve always

Been prone to making blunders uh in the summer of in 1993 this was completely absent never happened uh but when I played ksky in January 1994 uh this uh weakness had reestablished itself in my mind and and uh that’s what um what caused me to lose the match I

Think I played pretty well apart from the fact that uh I made two really bad blunders and you can’t do that of course giving um two points away in a short match like that is just U too much yeah and if memory serves you blundered away the first game but then

You came back and won and then basically repeated the cycle yeah exactly that’s that’s and then I lost it’s good that you did those things sorry yeah yeah and then it was over um but you make it more you make it more relatable for US amateur players by doing that

Yes well basically I I mean a mind of top player works exactly the same way as an amateur player um and I that’s why I think this is a universal process that you have ups and then necessarily you have it down again and then up and down again um maybe what uh

Distinguished well me from many amateur players is that um I could live with that you know I didn’t give up it’s so easy and I see I’ve always seen a lot of very talented young players uh simp give up on chess because they can’t deal with the disappointments

And there will always be disappointments and that’s unavoidable I mean even Magnus Carlson has had to work his way through many disappointments and uh what distinguishes I think uh top players from um lesser players is that they they simply don’t care they take these disappointments and they carry

On and you feel like that was generally a strength of yours I think so yes I think so I’ve had so many disappointments uh uh if I wouldn’t have been able to deal with them um I I I’d have given up on chess uh when I was about 25 or

Something then when I when I still could have chosen another career in my life and that’s what that’s what many very talented young players do they uh they are very good as Juniors they’re very good in their 20s and then they when they still when they’re still young enough to choose a

Different career they quit chess and do something more uh stable mentally stable yeah and you and you write about that that push and pull a lot obviously ultimately finally retiring at 45 and becoming a meditation teacher were were there any periods in your earlier years where you were close to pursuing a different

Career well I think I was but um at the age of about 22 23 I think I was fairly set on my chess career maybe a little bit later 25 but um when you’re young I think there naturally there are moments of doubt I mean there’s always pressure from other

People my parents for instance I mean they were they were pretty uh relaxed about my choosing a professional chess career but still uh they were probably hoping for some years that I would uh become a decent lawyer or something um so yes especially when I was young

There there were some moments but uh well at at some point you just choose and then you don’t look back yeah although you do look back luckily for us because we got to read this book well very interesting returning to go ahead yeah well I was uh say that

Uh when I stopped playing tournaments when I stopped playing chess professionally um it’s sort of sudden L happened to me that I started to enjoy writing books so I wrote The Dutch version of um uh fundamental chess openings and then I simply to my own surprise discovered that this in a way

Replaced playing chess uh not in all ways of course but uh in that I took a lot of pleasure from writing and then I naturally continued to write uh after that I um wrote the English version which became fundamental CH openings um after that I started on this uh

Autobiography with in Dutch which is now in black and white and uh it it was just very very uh surprising and satisfying to discover that a lot of the pleasure my playing chess had given me uh was now available to me uh through writing so in a in a very different way

It’s uh gives me much pleasure to to do this creative thing which is called writing yeah and again incredible works and I I want to discuss all of them now on the topic of in Black why one of the many things that struck me was your absolutely incredible recall of events

And tournaments going all the way back to your childhood so I was curious Paul if uh did you take notes were you keeping a diary like or was we were able to remember everything as you went through the games yeah yeah this helped me enormously uh I have uh kept diaries

For large periods of my life not always but very long periods uh I have uh um always collected paper clippings uh of you know I’m not quite sure if this is uh it’s probably not the same in America but in Holland uh chess was really very very popular it still is but

It was it was widely written about in newspapers during the 70s ‘ 80s 90s my time so um I have a lot of paper clippings uh of my own tournaments which helps my memory enormously and then of course I also made notes I always uh made notes of my

Games and sometimes I wrote little texts uh about uh how I experienced certain tournaments so yes I had a lot of notes to base my uh book b and this helped my memory enormously I think without those it would have been a more much uh flatter book yeah it’s good good lesson for

Everyone listening and for myself that the the value of of keeping notes and diing you never know when you might want to to return to those things and we should say for listeners one thing I appreciated is that uh new and chess uh you and the team made a decision not to

Just inject all of your analysis with engine lines here in well probably done in 2023 but here we are in 2024 but just preserved your thoughts as they were shared in sort of a classical way um that made it much more enjoyable to me yeah yeah yeah yeah well it’s I’m glad

You you take that point of view I I I really appreciate that well the whole idea of the book is to uh express how I reflected on my chess career and I thought it’s um just much more in line with that philosophy to not make new analysis with engines and to just

Um restrict myself to what I thought about my games in 1970 in 1980 in 1990 uh the thoughts about my games when I played them I I didn’t think uh it was an addition to to those memories to reflect on them with with engines anybody can use the engines for

Themselves if they if they look at my games so um yeah this is not something that the book uh provides and I think um it it would make it a a very different book if I had used engines yeah well said um and returning to the topic of memory so you mentioned

You were helped a lot by all the notes and journaling that you did I’m just curious because we’ve been talking recently on the Pod I’ve interviewed a couple cognitive scientists and been talking about you know how adults can um help their own memories so I’m curious if your notes were something and

Reviewing your games was something that you did periodically over the years or was it more like you set it aside and didn’t look at it until you were sitting down to write uh in black and white well keeping a diary is something which forces you to reflect on whatever has happened to

You um so that was certainly uh let’s say a Proto autobiography in a way um but during my career I never had the idea that I would write an autobiography like this this just happen happened uh when I had finished uh playing and when I had

The time I mean when when you’re a professional chess player you’re working on chess all the time you yeah all right you can write short articles short pieces of analysis but um a large project writing a book uh there’s very few chess players who find the time to

Do that um so when I I suddenly had all this time available after I quit chess as I said I started to enjoy writing but not as much reflection during your career yeah there was always reflection there was always reflection yeah oh okay yeah okay yeah and so Matthew

Sadler uh writes an absolutely glowing review again rightfully so I also love this book and but from Matthew’s perspective I can see Matthew of course one of uh one of England’s top players was a bright talent and actually decided to pursue a career in it and he makes a

Brief appearance in your book you guys played um in his younger years um but I sense from his review that it was like the road not traveled for him so it was like an additional I mean he knows all the principles but also it’s like what

Could have been you guys you know both um very accomplished players and he went down a different path so I think for him based on what he wrote that that level that added an additional level of sort of um uh identification with the book but for me as a 47-year-old 2100

Nonprofessional um I still identified greatly with the book because to me it was almost a story about aging generally like there’s tons of Chess and it’s fun to play through the games and see how your your game evolved and see all the great players that you played over the

Years but this slow Reckoning with losing your passion for something and with your skills gradually declining I think is something that’s that’s relatable even even beyond the chessboard so I’m curious Paul if if you had these sort of big themes in mind when you were writing the book or was it

More just that’s the chronicle and that’s what played out in your life yes the the latter I think um when I was writing the book I probably was a bit surprised myself that there was so much reflection on aging and um declining in strength and I must have realized at

Some point that this was actually the the theme of the second part of the book or the last part of the book that um aging and clining is uh a completely natural human process of course but uh for chess players it makes uh such a big difference whether you’re young and

Growing or aging and declining in your mental powers and physical Powers um so for me it was probably also a discovery that this was actually a very natural human process uh one which every chess player like every other human being has to deal with and um it probably gave me a lot of

Satisfaction to uh find that uh I had dealt with it so well that I hadn’t let’s say gone mad or be become very depressed or um dropped in an empty in a black hole I I just this is of course also where meditation came in I started doing

Meditation in 98 when I was 42 and I was already in in a process of decline though not very steep decline I mean I I I remained a fairly good player until the end but meditation probably helped me enormously to um just let it happen this process of aging and declining and

Um sort of distancing myself from the chess player I I used to be um this is also um like the 1993 peak in my performances uh this is also something which is very mysterious and which you can rationalize about but it’s it’s really not quite possible to fully

Understand these things but I’m quite sure that the meditation I did helped me to um accept the way things were going and to just let it be to uh not try to be uh cleverer than than life itself to just let it happen and that’s yeah one one moment that

Go there no go on sorry I was I was just goingon to say one moment that was illustrative for me was in in 1998 when you’re annotating your game with Grandmaster Mikel creno um you you didn’t fight as hard at the end and you you write that at that moment declining perseverance is

Becoming my achilles was becoming my Achilles heel yeah um and there’s this famous story uh I interviewed this author Sasha chapen wrote a fun little uh chess Memoir from an amateur’s perspective um and he one of the principles in the character was was Ben fold I’m G I’m gonna um I’m gonna spoil

This for listeners who haven’t heard my interview with Sasha or read the book all the moves that matter it’s a fun book but he teases at the beginning like there’s a secret to chess that Ben fold told him and obviously he does like the big reveal at the end so I’m going to

Reveal the secret for listeners who haven’t read this year old book but Ben in that in that book says you have the secret is you have to play like you don’t want the games to end um which when you wrote about how in in your game against CR and cow you just couldn’t

Quite fight as hard as as you used to I I made that connection and can relate to it myself at some level so you mentioned this idea of acceptance from your mindfulness practice was there any was it a process for you to accept something like that like were you mad at yourself

Or were were you deep enough into meditation where you accepted it all the way no it was definitely a process um I think first you uh discover that powers like these are are slowly declining uh the perseverance which you’re talking about now and um then gradually uh the acceptance just

Happens and at some point you just know that you don’t have the perseverance anymore that was natural to you when you were still 20 and yes you accept and you know that you are losing things you know that you are becoming weaker in in in many

Ways and you also what I find out is that you can still play at a decent level um but you at the same time you know that this is only going one way and that is down um so yes that’s that’s why event in the end I decided to to quit because

I I I had lost uh the Love of the Game I think at at one moment it became too onedimensional for me and I just uh when I I couldn’t enjoy playing chess anymore uh there that was probably the the moment or the the limit I I knew that my time was

Up makes sense and and we have a question from a listener of the podcast this is um from Brian Karen who uh founded the chessbook or sorry the Facebook chessbook collectors group they have something like 40,000 Plus members that I know there’ve been some some comments people excited for your book uh

For the translation of uh chess in black and white um which again it’s it’s available on forward chess now um I think for the physical copy it’s probably going to be a slower roll out in the coming months from when this is heard it’s a I should I should mention

It’s a fantastic book but it’s very long it it can keep listeners busy for a long time so um if you for me I would recommend getting it in digital format just because there’s tons and tons of games um and because it’s very long but if you like a beautiful thick book uh

You you can wait for that as well um anyway so Brian’s question relates to this because you’re talking about accepting Decline and his relates to something that us amateurs struggle with a lot uh which is um why they either decline or might struggle to get better so Brian asks he says broadly speaking

Adult improvers face two hurdles number one it could be intrinsic as a person gets older there’s cognitive decline and other genetic age related problems number two external adults are busier than children and have less time for study play they face psychological burdens um for example if a child has a

Poor tournament it’s a learning experience if an adult has one he wonders if he’s slipping so it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy so he’d like to hear your opinion if you could describe what you feel is the more predominant problem and what if anything can be done to deal with these problems

Well um I think both um aspects that he mentions are um very real um it’s a very difficult question and no one has written a manual for that I know of no books who uh teach you to um keep your level or improve your level

As an adult um I can only say that uh The crucial element is do you still enjoy chess if you manage to um play or do something with chess in a matter in in in a way which is still enjoyable to you then you are doing the right thing

If it’s a matter of um trying to stop the decline just trying to stop it and nothing else then well I would say this is in the long run pretty hopeless uh but of course I wish anybody good luck who who tries to uh avoid the

Unavoidable um but if I look at myself um you know I enjoy chess enormously now that I don’t play it anymore now I am uh back or back I never was a real amateur I’m just a real chance Lover now I enjoy uh following uh tournaments online especially the elite

Tournaments Carlson who is and all his um Rivals when they are playing I’m always trying to follow the games and writing about Chess also gives me a lot of pleasure so I I really enjoy chess enormously now I don’t play anymore uh of course I don’t want to recommend

Everybody who uh is trying to um improve as an adult to stop playing and um just look at games or follow games but this is what what what has worked for me uh to um release to the pressure that of of having to perform and to just go back to

That simple point where you once began the fascination for chess itself the love of the game uh that has not declined at all um in me and I think uh most people who have problems keeping their chess level uh as an adult or even trying to improve it um should probably

Not focus too much on the re on getting better results but on on on I think they should focus on how do I still enjoy what do I still enjoy in chess is it the playing is it the uh improving improving my ELO rating or is it uh the game itself which

I still enjoy and if it’s the L if it’s the game itself the game of chess which you still enjoy then maybe you should look for other ways to enjoy it and not non-competitive ways wise advice unsurprisingly yeah I I find it very relatable because personally I I

Go back and forth when I play competitively I wonder am I enjoying this I don’t know know some days I feel like I am some days I feel like I am not um I do feel like in the final analysis it’s good for me is what make is what

Keeps me coming back um I’ve mentioned I’ve mentioned this before but I you know I get distracted by my phone and um my feel like I have a hard time harder time focusing both as the years go on and as technology progresses and chess is the one thing that uh something that

Used to be a strength of mine I’m still able to to bring back so that’s what keeps me going back to competing but I’m curious Paul from your perspective um you you know you talk a lot about sort of acceptance and letting go and these

Uh the sort of um mindfulness sort of um themes that come across did you think about continuing to play and just trying to totally disassociate yourself from results or do you think as a professional with who’s accomplished as much as you have that it’s uniquely challenging I tried to go back to chess

In a small way I went back to playing Club matches for my Amsterdam club and this I did for uh seven years I I just played these Club matches nothing else uh and that I did uh to try and find out do I still enjoy this and then I had the same experience

That you are describing just now that some moments I enjoyed it then I didn’t enjoy it at all uh but it was a nice experiment to see if I still I could still go back to being a player this of course was not professional this

I didn’t earn any money with this at all this was just amate chess but I did try to play at my best level and um well it was a nice experiment but after seven years which was uh well it sounds impressive seven years but this was

Probably just 50 games or so um I stopped again and uh uh at that point I definitely knew that uh this was now a thing of the past playing chair myself I didn’t I didn’t enjoy it anymore but it was a nice experiment and I I’m

Glad to have done it by the way uh you said something just now which triggered me I’m not quite sure what it was but uh I I’d like to add to our previous topic that uh playing chess or uh watching chess uh so if you watch chess you are

Still playing chess in your mind so you’re still using your brain cells active and I think whether you play or just watch chess uh this is a very good anti-aging method as well I mean it’s a slightly different subject from uh trying to be an adult improver but uh in

General I think as long as you can enjoy chess and play mentally use these brain cells uh it’s probably an excellent anti-aging program sorry for I agree with that and that is no no that’s that’s one of the things that I always keep in the positive

Ledger and that that keeps me going back for now for now at least um well Paul I want to switch gears and discuss mindful chess a bit so just to give listeners a bit of an overview comparing the I mean again you’ve written obviously much more

Than these two books but these two are newly available in the English language so in black and white um sprawling beautiful chess Memoir you could spend a year reading it and going through the games easily um and mindful chess uh very maybe one or two diagrams but not

Very much chess in it although certainly plenty of mentions of Chess and you could read it in in two days easily it’s uh much sort of lighter um book and and I’d like to dig into it but I think to set the stage um maybe you should tell the story of

Uh first of all we have a lot of American listeners so they might be interested in hearing about your attending the New York open in 1995 and picking up a book that set you on this this uh whole path yes well um actually it wasn’t the start of my

Interest in meditation and philosophy but um it was a very uh uh important moment when I um played the New York open in 1995 uh as you probably know this is a very tough tournament with uh several games a day and many strong players and you have to play your very best to

Uh keep the the the winning a priz within your reach it’s it’s it’s very easy to uh lose one game and then uh you don’t have any chance at all anymore uh so I was completely focused during these uh four days I think uh on the chess and everything I could do to

Uh keep myself as fit as possible and uh always between games I just lay on my bed and emptied my mind completely uh but uh what I always did before that was reading a few lines from the bhavat Gita which was a book I had bought in New

York actually just before the tournament started I chose it because it was the smallest book available in the Bookshop um but it turned out to be a fantastic choice and just reading a few lines was always uh enough for the chance to completely disappear from my mind between games I mean and

Um to be able me to to to to be able to for me to make a fresh start for the next game so it was quite a wonderful experience also very hard to explain sort of um the soothing effects this this book had on me um but definitely after

That um I I I I knew I had to pursue this to to this let’s say this study of Eastern wisdom of Hinduism Buddhism taoism Etc and and uh a few years after that I started to meditate in fact then then I uh it it really became let’s say

Physical up to then it had been an intellectual uh study but when I started to meditate uh it it turned physical it became not just something my mind uh was occupied in but my whole body yeah and you didn’t just get casually into it as you write in the

Book you started going to these these meditation Retreats yeah where you know you you would have very little sensory input for a week 10 days and you I’ve meditated here and there but never at that level and I was just curious because to me there’s there’s something maximalist about it there’s there’s what

Do you think it was about your interest that said I’m not going to do this for 20 minutes a day or an hour a day I’m G to go do this for a week three what led to that oh maybe I’m naturally perfectionist that’s one explanation but

I also think uh I had uh intellectually I had studied uh these things so deeply that I understood that you have to go into this completely and that if you don’t then it’s simply not it it doesn’t have the power that it is supposed to have so

It it it it just be became clear to me that I had to go into this uh all out and then um you soon enough you feel that it is working on you uh for are worse uh because you experience a lot of pain in these Retreats uh it’s not pleasant at all

Right um but you do get the idea that you’re on the right track in the sense that it it’s really going somewhere um and that’s that is probably what what kept me going that I knew I I got onto a a path you could say um which had a purpose it wasn’t just

Um uh a play it was it was for real it it it really was lifechanging that’s that’s that’s what I felt probably that if you do this seriously then it can change your life and it did yeah it’s an interesting dichotomy though this idea that you wrote In the

Book as as you just alluded to you say quote the first Meditation Retreat was hell so it’s not something where when you read it you say oh I’m GNA go do this Meditation Retreat but then you also write about its life-changing uh positive impact um and of course you

Write about this in the book too but um what general advice might you give for a chess player uh pros and cons of of taking up meditation well there’s a lot of uh very different very there’s so many such a variety of meditation forms um I think if chess player wants

To improve he will naturally start thinking about uh improving his um mental health his mental attitude his um mental toughness and um if you’re really serious about improving your mental health or state of mind uh then meditation is just a very interesting tool um to try and I tried and uh this

Eventually led me to give up chess but um that’s probably because I was already 45 years of age and it was a natural moment for me to quit chess um I think younger players would probably find uh meditation very uh restful for them and in fact um some players modern players young modern

Players like gesh from India Branda and others from this generation uh they come from a culture India where meditation is very natural and uh completely accepted and not regarded as something uh bizarre um and I think they already practice meditation they have um spoken about this in interviews and um for them

It’s a very natural tool to uh keep yourself mentally fit and healthy uh even during in the pressure of playing high level chess so uh yes I would recommend uh people who who who are considering to start meditation chess players who are considering starting meditation to just

Try and give it a go to find a meditation center somewhere and simply try you will find out soon enough whether um it helps you or whether it um destroys you as a chess player right and you write in mindful chess that mindfulness may or may not

Benefit your chest but it will benefit you as a human that’s that’s that’s what I agree with that as yeah yeah yeah and I I agree with that for I’m saying it isn’t helpful for your chess because mindfulness is not the same thing as concentration and what you need as a

Chess player is as deep a concentration as possible um mindful chance is not really geared towards uh deepening your concentration it can be a side effect but uh it’s not the purpose of the meditation um but there are well first there are many other forms of meditation that are geared towards improving your

Concentration and uh second the much more important effect I think is what it has on you a human being after all even a chess player is a human being and I think in the end the human being always comes first yeah uh again well said uh and we

Have one more question from a listener uh this one is from David Ham David thank you for helping support Perpetual chess via patreon and David asks he says I’ve recently been spending a more significant portion of my chess training time on the mental aspect of the game I’ve identified several books in the

General sports psychology space that I’m planning on working through however I haven’t found a lot of resources directly focused on chess in that space the only book I was able to find is mental toughness in chess by wner schwitzer I’m about halfway through that book and it’s okay but given your focus

In the area do you have more or better resources that directly connect sports psychology concepts with the sport of Chess well this is a very good question actually and um uh it it’s um not there there’s simply nothing good about that aspect of Chess

I think I I know of no books which um could help you I would suggest exactly what you have already been doing um read uh books which uh deal with sports psychology in general um um it would be great if there were books on um specifically on

Chess but I don’t know of any of them uh the book that you mention uh I don’t know um I hope it will help you but uh yes this is actually an area in ch literature which has yet to be uh filled uh I might write a book on myself

Actually now that you mention it we would love that that would be great I mean I do feel like mindful chess it touches on it in a sense but but I do think it’s a it’s it’s fertile ground and and I noticed that you make references uh to cycling a few times

Obviously uh very popular in the Netherlands um I’m are there any books that stand out about cycling that that you found helpful or applicable to chess um not exactly to chess but maybe to uh the effect cycling can have on your mind uh there’s a very famous Dutch writer Tim krai who has

Um written a book The cyclist I’m pretty sure it’s has been translated into English and many other languages because it it’s really a phenomenal book and he is also a chess player I think it’s called the writer in English okay yes yeah I interviewed him he’s fantastic

Writer but I think it’s called the R I think it’s called the rider in English yeah he’s I mean he’s a living treasure he’s yeah’s fantastic and he also used to be a very good chess player so he does actually uh compare cycling to Chess at at at at

Some point in his book and um he I think actually this book stimulated me to take up cycling myself when I had read this book I uh bought a racing bike and started doing RS in the country um did this for several years which um helped

Me also to keep my physical condition at a reasonable level but yes you have to look at uh other forms of literature to help you in this respect um yes my mindful chess perhaps uh also uh other books which touch more about the psychology of Chess uh there’s also uh

This fantastic book by Genna suzuno the essential suzuno where he writes about the human beings behind the chess players the famous Russian chess players that he has known I think this also might help you a little bit in understanding this chess psychology and the The Human Side of of being a chess

Player but uh yes you have to look at the fringes of Chess literature there is simply no uh good no standard manual unfortunately yeah yeah the the essential Sano is a wonderful book and of course Sanko one of the many players who makes many appearances uh over the board against

You in in black and white which which brings me to to the next top I mean I just you you’ve played so many Legends so I just love to hear a few memories about some of the players who make brief appearances in your book for example you

Played uh you played the pogar sisters and I believe it was uh vikon um in in the the B section um in their teenage years uh what are your memories of uh those young polgars well uh first of all um amazement uh at their uh being so

Special um the first to emerge was the oldest of course Souza I met her first for the first time I think in London in 1981 she must have been 12 or perhaps 11 then and uh she was not participating in t in this tournament where I played but

She was playing Blitz with an American Grandmaster actually John fedorovich a contemporary of mine who was was a very good player and she was just uh crushing him uh so this was my first um experience of what the poga of poga strength then uh one or two years

Afterwards a good friend of mine uh paid a visit to Budapest to the pogas and he came back with stories about there being two younger sisters who were even better than soua and I just didn’t believe him I thought he was pulling my lag and uh

When I first met Sophia and um and udit especially uded of course turned out to be even better than soua indeed and she was just a phenomenon in those first years um yes this tournament that you mentioned in raan in 1990 I think um all three sisters played in the

Bsection which was a grandmas tournament but um not as quite as strong as the a section um and they did extremely well and I I lost to both Judith and Sophia was very lucky to get a draw against uh soua uh but I wasn’t the person who did

Worst against them Luke vany for instance uh who was young at the time but already a very good player uh he lost to all three of the sister and after that uh yes of course they never look back um it’s it’s been a it’s been a wonderful period in the history of Chess

Actually when they played when they were all active and all having their own successes um it it it was quite a unique period of of in the CH history I’m I’m really quite glad to have lived through these per this period although it cost me a

Lot of games I think I lost to unit three times uh to Sophia once I think uh only against Souza I could sort of um keep the balance maybe I’ll beat her once and a couple of throws but um yes they were really pretty special and they still are

But of course they’re not players anymore yeah I I’ll read a quote from from your notes to the game your first encounter against udit you write so she she wins this technical endgame and WR you write in hindsight but only in hindsight I look with great admiration at the Flawless accuracy effectivity and

Directness youit demonstrated in this game which reminds me of Fischer’s play she didn’t seem to think it was anything special which made it even worse for me yes but at the time it was a horrible experience to be swept off the board by a 13-year-old even though I knew very well that I

Wasn’t the only one yeah and I think it’s hard and I think for younger listeners like prodigies in a sense are a dime a dozen now you know they’re they’re amazing still and they’re getting better every year but they’re coming so fast and furious that I think it’s hard to understand how far

Ahead the polgars were of of other of their younger contemporaries yes I think they were probably the first yeah so now it is and for sorry please go no go ahead I was just gonna say and the fact that they were girls like Shifting the Paradigm in that sense as well makes it

Even even more incredible yeah yeah yeah it was a shock it was a real shock for everybody who at that time was an established uh strong player we all had to deal with it and um I think I was um not the only one at all who just couldn’t cope with this uh

Sensational change of everything that you had been used to exactly as you say they being girls not boys uh made it even more difficult much more difficult to uh adjust to having them as an opponent it was a great time it was a really great time

Yeah and and then of course again you played so many go ahead yeah no I was going to mention one other great player that I played quite quite often against Victor go let’s see if it’s the same one I was gonna ask you about go ahead G you

Read my mind yeah I mean I have others too but that was the next one yeah yeah yeah I think I played um eight games or so against G um we never drew I won three he won five uh the last game I played against him was in Anor Belgium in um 19

997 when kachner was already 61 years of age um far older than any other Elite Grandmaster already at the time and um at that time the score between us was 4 three in this favor and I was I was completely set on equalizing the score in that game I thought okay

Today I’m going to win and then our score will probably remain at four all forever but although I got a very good even winning position uh at in the at at one point he was down on time to his last second last minute but he exuded

This will to not lose to win to beat me uh which actually felt like hatreds it was a very strong emotion which he managed to convey to me uh an emotion that he was not going to let this game go and I was sort of beaten by it I I don’t know what

Happened I I suppose we need neuroscientists to explain this but this emotion which I felt coming across the board towards me it was just too strong for me and I collapsed and lost that game too yeah so that was very interesting it taught me that uh even at this

Age 61 now I’m actually older than 61 right now but I still remember still at 61 you’re not supposed to be that good anymore um it it it shows you that you can maintain a very very high level uh but at a cost I think as a human being

Uh I think you coacho suffered from um still being such an ambiti player who I I think it he remained an exceptional chess player but as a human being I suppose he suffered for it anyway he was one of the most colorful players I ever played against

And it was always a joy to uh to meet him yeah and getting back to that idea of playing like you don’t want the game to end it sounds like when you last played him in 97 even at age 61 he had that mindset in Spades and that was the

Period where you were already starting to Grapple with uh waning tenacity yes yes yeah it seemed like I’m more on your side unfortunately okay yeah yeah yeah but by the way this was quite exceptional I think I’ve never felt this emotion from any other player I’ve heard Kasparov described that way

You didn’t you didn’t play Kasparov right no I never played Kasparov unfortunately no he’s the one where I’ve heard about this yeah I suppose uh he might have um this uh will to win or at least not to lose but practically a will to win uh perhaps in the same respect as

Kacho but then Kasparov stopped at a very uh relatively young age my age I think what was he he must have been also like 40 something uh so he never went all a few years younger yeah yeah he never went all the way like Victor kachai did

So to still have this power at the age of 61 uh I think that is absolutely unique to Victor coo yeah younger than 45 to clarify not younger than 40 and uh did you do any postmortem with uh Victor oh yes yes yes not always but quite often and uh he

Always enjoyed post-mortems very much and um was very creative in finding um Alternatives better Solutions um suggestions he I think he in a way he enjoyed post-mortems enormously could go on forever indefinitely he I think he he very often just kept analyzing with me and with with other

Players uh until they um shut down the building or something and they threw him out he um couldn’t stop he was a great he was a great one for uh postmortem and um other moments of analyzing the game I had a very uh creative mind you know very creative was never never happy

Until he had really exhausted a position yeah again speaks speaks to uh why he had such longevity yeah um and you also write about your many encounters with a fellow Dutch Legend Yan Timon and you write that he had like he was a he was a stronger player than

You but he had a an even better score than he should have based on raing why do you think that was I think he I think because he was my first Idol as a young player um he is about five years older than me uh so when I started

Playing uh chess when I started uh getting to know the chv a little bit uh he was already an established uh young star um so I think he he became my idol from a very young age and I was never able to shake off that mentality of playing against your

Idol um so we never played on an equal footing mentally I was always looking up to him even when we for a short period of time had about the same rating and weren’t so very different in uh in playing level but um I I could never

Shake that off no not until after I stopped playing chess so I I just mentioned that uh in uh 2010 I started playing Club matches again and in these Club matches I played two games against J timan as well and then I was completely free I just I had finally

Lost that uh Idol admiring mentality and then I could just play against him all out with no mental barriers that’s fascinating psychologically yes it is yes it’s amazing it amazed myself at the time that I was sitting oppos there I was sitting opposite my old Nemesis Jan

Timon and I didn’t feel any negativity at all I just enjoyed those two games I lost one and I won one but it was completely uh on equal terms like it had never been before yeah and another player you mentioned who’s already come up uh you know equally renowned as a writer these

Days Jenna Sanko but I was really struck by you mentioned the depth of his opening preparation and especially I believe it was the Catalan the the toughness of uh cracking his Catalan like what was it like to play him so many times and feel like you have to get

Out of the opening okay in those battles yes yes yes it was uh it was very daunting Prospect to play against him but uh very different from playing y timan um it was just that he was so strong when I was young he was uh already a worldclass player and he was

Just such a strong opening expert uh but also strong player generally uh so I think he was one of those people who really forced me to become better myself I played them so often that um every time when I was young I felt that I simply had to play better than I

Could if that is a possibility um he forced me he was one of those maybe he was the player uh who I should credit most with uh forcing me to become a better player myself and he was such a power at the Chaz board and what did you do like how did

That manifest what did you do to to get better I think uh what I did was take these games against him uh as seriously as I could and sort of uh do everything a little bit better than I I I I thought I could did him by the

Way um he was also uh a player who I uh observed becoming weaker at a certain age again I kept playing professionally until he was about 50 I think maybe a little bit longer than that and in his last years as a professional chess player I could just

Feel his decline he was just becoming weaker and weaker I mean he never dropped of course to a a really weak level he still remained a Grandmaster but uh yes I could feel that that he uh he was probably yeah he spent a lot to me actually now that we talking about

Him perhaps I realized this for the first time that he really meant a lot to me and uh that he was also the first player who I noticed the inevitability of decline in the chess player I just observed it in him first and a few years after that I started

Observing the same symptoms in myself I recognized the symptoms because I already observed them in suono did you ever discuss it with him no I’ve never discussed these things with anybody I could write about them but I never discussed these things and even after I published my

Book s a bit in Dutch in 2010 uh none of my old colleagues uh came up to me and discussed what I had written about him they uh that’s players just don’t do that they talk about uh what’s wrong with the greenfeld but not about uh what’s wrong with

Themselves right and you told a funny story about Sanko the the 1988 Olympiad involving a draw offer to the to the Soviet team could we hear that story well in 1988 the Dutch played a very good Olympia um after after I think five or six rounds we were paired with what was

Still the Soviet Union at the time um of course the top favorite for winning the um Olympia um Genna played a fairly short draw that day against arur yusupov and then started watching the other games and at some point he decided that well we’re not doing that bad

Actually uh maybe we should propose uh a draw two two four draws which was at that time was quite common to uh to do in in in team events it wasn’t considered unsporting or anything um so he approached our own captain and said well what do you think Captain about

Offering a 2 two and the captain said well yes but this is a Soviet Union we’re dealing with surely they’re not going to accept and GNA well you never know and he just went to the Soviet Captain which I think was marar Chef also a famous Grandmaster well-known

Grandmaster um and proposed it to him and marichev was clearly uh surprised um felt that this was perhaps a little too big a decision to make by himself uh so he uh said okay reasonable but I have to consult Kasparov on this Kasparov was not playing that day kpov was Bard one um

And then Kasparov was uh consulted he looked at the boards at the games and his judgment was extremely negative for his his own fellow team members he looked at carpo first carpo versus F kpo bad position bad then uh went over to I think Ivan shuk uh remember this is

Still the Soviet Union so not just Russian players but from all over that country Ivan shuk versus reinii K I think had just sacrificed the peace um looks very very very suspect uh the last game was I think pette against um I’m not quite sure you no no well I’m

Not quite sure whom B was playing against um a similar comment and he said yes okay two two and maef who had to make the official decision was still hesitant clearly this had never happened to him before and then um suko decided to stop the clocks

Himself and then um there was no going back for marichev and um the Arbiters who had been completely kept outside all these negotiations uh simply stopped the other clocks and the match was over but um this was just so unusual and uh unique that uh yes it is it is a real

Story it is a real uh story within the greater story of that Olympiad so it was something that uh never happened again I think that a player stops the clocks and this is accepted by all and it’s the end of the game yeah did anyone even look at him funny or

Just he just got away with it I think the Dutch players were all a bit surprised but they were all very happy to accept uh the Soviet player uh I think they all had the attitude of uh hierarchy they just looked at at their captain and said well this is for you to

Decide doesn’t matter to me or it’s not my decision it’s your decision and U that’s what happened so they all accepted I think after afterwards Ivan shuk uh protested that he wasn’t actually losing as Kasparov thought he was actually uh his opponent just had just made a mistake and he was probably

Winning um but that was a feeble protest because it didn’t count for anything against U what Kasparov and marichev had already decided yeah iuk he must have been he was pretty young right yeah it was 88 so he was probably 18 or 19 yes yeah so you

Played him when he was pretty young too right uh yes no Authority I played him only once I think this was in 94 in Munich yeah a draw and and you also played uh Mikel tall just once is that right also just once yes towards the end of his career

Of his life actually uh also in V can tournament in um 19 8 8 yes I think 1988 yes yes yeah my memory is beginning to fade a little bit there was a time when I was absolutely uh Flawless about dates and years and names but um now I have become

A little bit hesitant so you at least had to think about it yes that’s that’s okay you’re doing you’re doing quite all right um any other famous I mean favorite excuse me stories from uh from all of your years competing with these Giants well uh a lot of things happened of course

But um I think in hindsight uh what happened to me when I played Victor kacho in W 1978 was probably my favorite story um it was a game where I got into such a deep concentration uh that I completely dropped my normal level playing level and uh managed

To um play the whole game uh at a much higher level than I had ever been able to do before that and um kept my concentration uh not only during the the session but in those days we still adjourned games so we played five hours 40 moves five hours then adjourned

Had a break of twoh hour break and then continued the game so I had to keep my concentration in total for uh at least um nine hours probably more and uh this I did it was never broken not for a single moment and that has been such a strange experience that

Um I still look back on it as the most U remarkable uh moment of my entire chess life that I was able to keep that incredible incredibly deep concentration for such a long time so you describe it in the book it almost comes across as like an outof

Body Experience yeah it it almost work yes yeah I think it it was very close to that yes and you never had that feeling in another game no never sometimes you got close to it perhaps um but that was a truly unique experience so this is not like an

Anecdote it’s just like a very impressive moment in my life it’s a a moment when uh chess somehow took control of me instead of me trying to take control of Chess yeah I can only talk about it in uh spiritual or Mystic terms that there’s there’s no rational U

Explanation uh that I know of that this could happen to me at the time that’s uh the beauty of Life the one of the Mysteries of Life someone can have an experience like that yes that thing like that can happen to you and yeah and this has been amazing

Conversation as I expected based on your book uh Paul and the last major topic I wanted to touch on is is your work at the max o Center uh there in the Netherlands I haven’t been to the Netherlands since the mid 200s um but I remember being struck by

The chess culture there and the particular being struck by the big chess set right in Max overway square and that the I unfortunately didn’t visit the chess center nearby but for some some listeners will have been there some wouldn’t but could you describe your work at the chess

Center well I’m the chairman and uh we work with volunteers almost entirely and uh what we do is um keep a chess Center um alive which offers people the chance to visit our Museum the max o Museum uh celebrates the life of Max o the the only Dutch

Player who managed to become world champion this is in the 1930s so we have a very nice museum which is very popular with tourists actually and uh we also have a chess center with a library and other study facilities and you can play there and we organize uh small events uh now and

Again uh it’s uh probably uh the only uh let’s say chess Center uh in the Netherlands and there are not too many uh places like that anywhere I think uh we uh survive almost solely on donations so it’s in fact it’s quite incredible that we are exist at all um but we do

Exist already for 35 years now and we have recently moved to another location in the same building which has cost us a lot of money and we set up a crowdfunding which again showed how um many people support U chess and the Marx a center in particular uh in Netherlands and even

Abroad because we have um already um acquired about ,000 um from that Chess World so we are really um sort of rooted in in in chess uh culture in in Holland yeah I mean obviously I’ve interviewed so many I mean the the Dutch Legacy in chess is is immense and

Obviously I’ve interviewed so many Dutch players and honestly it’s it’s a little surprising there’s only been one world champion because there’s so many uh incredible players and so many such players have contributed so much to the game well after all I will definitely be contributing thank

Youe well yes we’ve had only one world champion but we have come close with Yan Timon who has been the world number two for quite a few years actually before um Kasparov took control of the Chess World and recently of course we have also Anish giri who is is also very very

Close to uh the level of Carlson and he has been very close to um securing a match for the world championship so yeah I think for a small country we we’re doing okay it’s uh we yeah to have more than we have already have would perhaps be a little bit

Arrogant yeah and especially during the Soviet era it was basically it was almost impossible for a non Soviet I mean obviously fer and O pulled it off but but it was very difficult for anyone from outside of uh the Soviet Union to win um yeah and I was obviously like

Like all Dutch chess fans uh sadden that uh Anish didn’t make it into this candidates because uh yes could have been could have been his year it would have been wonderful would have been yeah yeah would have been fun it would have been wonderful and yeah and how do you assess the Dutch

Chess scene now here in the US there’s the professional element but there’s also just chess seems more popular than ever here in the United States I’m curious in the Netherlands I I sort of have a feeling what you’ll say about the professional level but I’m also curious

At an amateur level what you see in terms of chess’s popularity yeah I think it’s very similar to the US actually uh chess has profited uh benefited enormously from the rise of online chess in Holland online chess has also become older R in fact uh chess is enormously popular with uh children of

Uh primary school age and um youth clubs uh are simply overflowing with um uh kids who want to become more involved with yes it’s it’s very very popular at the moment we are really experiencing uh a huge wave of popularity uh unfortunately this is not yet reflected in more sponsorship in more uh

Tournaments um so I’m not quite sure where this popularity is going but uh yes we do uh see an an immense rise in in in chess uh in interest in chess also thanks to bearmon I think and the queen gambits they have also done very very much for chess in in Holland as

Well good to hear yeah it’s definitely the same here in in the US um well I encourage listeners to support the Maxway Center if they are able to I will I will make a donation when I uh when we say goodbye which I think um will will

Be shortly um unless you have uh do you have any other major topics you’d like to discuss Paul well I think we’ve uh covered a wide field haven’t we no we have I mean there’s so much in your book there’s well I would just like to say

Hello to uh everybody in America in the in the US who loves chess and um I would certainly uh advise everybody to keep on loving chess and to uh just be involved with chess in a way that makes you happy with it so for me personally this has

Become uh being a spectator rather than a player myself and um of course if you’re younger then uh I would simply love to see all of you uh become good players better players great advice yeah and E excellent advice yeah so that’s a lot of

What this podcast is about is kind of we know we love chess but where does it fit within our lives and and that’s that’s in a sense what your book is about too the the evolving I’m referring to in black and white and mindful chess for

That matter what sort of how chess as a companion one’s relationship to it just as any relationship can evolve over life um and the idea a of acceptance that that that’s not a bad thing that’s that’s just the cycles of uh of life as as it comes um so the book is called

Chess and is called in black and white uh couldn’t recommend it more highly and uh mindful chess as well is a very fun read especially if you’re interested in sort of philosophy and zen zen ideas and considering mindfulness I highly recommend both books and uh I’ll I’ll

Link to to where to get them oh I know we were saying goodbye but we actually didn’t discuss fundamental chess openings Paul we could we do could we discuss that for a few more minutes yeah sure so because because as I was starting to tell you before we recorded

It’s it’s a rare you know I grew up with these chess encyclopedias but they were just moves for the most part but yours is this rare book that you could tell a you know a 1400 player or someone um you know firmly amateur level that you want to know what the opening

Moves are but you need to understand ideas too and this was kind of the only book that really explained the ideas of every opening so you were saying that even even today this book still sells pretty well yes it’s it does and um thank you for your kind words I agree

That at the time of writing uh this was a fairly unique book in that I just explain um opening Theory uh starting from move one and not going too deeply not becoming really uh involved with fashionable variations or with um subtleties I just want to uh explain how

Uh opening Theory as a whole is a body which um simply starts on at the start of the game and that you don’t have to be frightened of it so also it’s encyclopedic so I’m trying to Simply present all the accepted possibilities starting from move one and um yes at the

Time of writing this was a completely new concept I think there since then there have been a few books more or less similar um but yes it’s been a a tremendous success I’m I’m I’m I’m completely surprised by it myself but the book is still selling well even

Though it’s by now um about 20 years old it simply doesn’t age very much because I do not go into the subtleties of what a current theory um is exploring I I simply present the openings and uh explain the reasons why they exist yeah it’s and it’s only 10 bucks

On Kindle and yeah it’s just a really useful book to have around because if you come across some new opening and you’re a little unclear on like what the driving principles are as you say it’s not so much about the the theory you can just look and you have very lucid

Explanations any chance of an update of that book Paul um yeah I think I proposed the idea about 10 years ago to my Dutch publisher and they didn’t want to do it but maybe by now it should be done at least in the English language yes yeah it’s it’s a very good

Suggestion I’m I’m not uh I haven’t been thinking about that for some time but um yes I think an update in the English language would be very good yeah okay so we’ll leave you Paul with two books to write you’ve got to update FCO and you’ve got to write a

Book about sports psychology and chess but so so we’ve got some homework for you but I would love love to uh discuss those things uh and chat again sometime but I want to thank you for your time Paul and for your wonderful books thank you Ben for talking to me and U good

Luck with your Perpetual chess podcast which is a great idea