Energy Minister Jonathan Wilkinson highlights some of Canada’s efforts to decarbonize emission-intensive sectors while he attends the Canada-UK Industrial Decarbonization Forum in London, England. The High Commission of Canada in the U.K. is hosting the inaugural forum. The minister is joined by Ralph Goodale, Canada’s high commissioner to the United Kingdom.
Following his remarks, Wilkinson takes part in a chat with Mike Crabtree (president and CEO of the Saskatchewan Research Council) and Simon Maine (managing director of corporate communications, Brookfield Asset Management).
Bour T hello everyone B Avenue Lon to Canada uh for some of you it may well be welcome back to Canada house because we have hosted several discussions here over the past year or so about clean energy and new and Greener energy sources reducing carbon not energy
Carbon uh and the evolution toward the low carbon economy of the future it’s all about decarbonization and how industrial economies like Canada and the UK make that critical transition the transition is of course necessary to meet the challenges presented by climate change so it’s a great pleasure for us
To have with us today Canada’s minister of energy and natural resources Jonathan Wilkinson back to Canada house today to uh join another discussion about these important topics Jonathan has been leading leading Canada’s transition through his efforts to support decarbonization in industrial facilities and Manufacturing processes his work on carbon management including ccus but
Also much more than that and his commitment to building resiliency in Canada’s critical mineral Supply chains to name just a few of the initiatives that he is driving this transition of course is not easy it will require careful policy support coordination between governments and Industry and significant Capital
Investments and that’s why events like this one are so very important they bring together government industry and investors as well as key organizations from both Canada and the United Kingdom and they provide a forum for all of us to to discuss the latest in technology and Innovation what is working and what
Is not and where all of us see the opportunities and the challenges ahead today we can hear from both Canada and the UK about what we are doing to decarbonize those hard to Abate sectors such as cement manufacturing chemical production steel making and prochemical refining the this is also part of
Broader efforts that we’re making to support collaboration between Canada and the United Kingdom on a great many fronts as we move toward that lowc carbon economy a couple of weeks ago for example Canada and the UK signed A Renewed memorandum of understanding on science technology and Innovation that strengthens bilateral cooperation
Recognizes that research and and Innovation are fundamental to economic growth and help to drive the commercialization of innovation into the future last year we also launched our Canada UK critical minerals supply chain dialogue recognizing the essential role that those minerals play on the path to Net Zero critical minerals as you all
Know are used in almost all modern and green techn Oles from solar panels to electric vehicles and the dialogue establishes a framework for both of our countries to better integrate our supply chains through joint research Innovation facilitating Investments the UK I am told has identified 18 minerals that it
Has designated as critical and Canada can be the world’s most reliable source for at least 14 of them coming back to this specific discussion this afternoon we are very pleased to have brought together expert speakers to discuss how carbon management and hydrogen are being Incorporated in the
Drive to drive down emissions in the industrial sector and that sector is so very important because because it is a key driver of Canada’s economic well-being as well as here in the UK contributing to exports and providing good jobs all across the country but the sector represents close to 10% of the
Country’s carbon emissions the challenge is how do you grow that vital industrial sector and yet make emissions fall at the same time and I think Canada is showing some of the way forward in the work that we’re undertaking on carbon management CCU us and hydrogen Canada has had a hydrogen
Strategy since 2020 that aims to leverage our competitive advantage in the production and distribution of hydrogen while looking to become a global leader in hydrogen exports and in September of last year Minister Wilkinson launched the Canadian carbon management strategy that sets out a path to decarbonize Canada’s heavy Industries
While at the same time ensuring that they can compete and succeed in global markets well with so much to discuss I am very much looking forward to this afternoon and the contributions that all of you will make to these very important topics and to begin the process I am
Very pleased to present now Canada’s minister of energy and natural resources Minister Jonathan Wilkinson [Applause] thank you uh thank you very much Ralph for the kind introduction I should say that uh Ralph has been kind of a fixture in my life I we both are from Saskatchewan and I
Actually was in elementary school when Ralph was in the provincial legislature so he he has been somebody I have followed throughout a long career a long and very distinguished career um I am very pleased to be here to talk a little bit about uh some of Canada’s efforts
With respect to decarbonization uh I think we also are going to do a few questions if folks are interested at the end um uh and I have a a written speech but but I think maybe I’m I’m actually just going to talk um I was uh I had the
Great privilege this morning of of being up at Oxford uh talking to University students um from around the world but a lot of them were Road Scholars from from around the world um I was there because uh I had the great privilege of of actually attending Oxford for a couple
Of years and uh and I thought it would be interesting to have a conversation with them partly because I’d actually like to encourage some of them to come and work for the government of Canada um whether they work in the public service or or in the political side of of
Government um and I have to say the discussion that we had uh this morning was from my perspective quite inspiring um certainly the issues around climate change and the energy transition are enormously important for people of that Generation Um but there was uh maybe not optimism but I think an enormous
Commitment on the part of all of those folks that were gathered this morning to trying to understand how they can actually be part of this conversation and part of addressing what is an existential threat to uh to their future in uh in that context climate change clearly is an existential threat
To the future of the human race um it is a science issue shouldn’t be a partisan issue it is a science issue we need to address it we need to address it in thoughtful ways Canada has a climate plan a very detailed climate plan uh we have actually worked very hard on that
We’ve worked with our friends in uh in the United Kingdom and in the European Union very closely on that before I was minister of energy and natural resources I was the minister of environment and climate change and I had the the opportunity to work with many of my
Colleagues to develop the first plan that Canada has ever had that actually showed how we would not only achieve the targets that we had establish for ourselves but that we would beat them and in the aftermath of that we raise the targets to make them more closely
Aligned with what the science tells us we need to do but climate change and reducing emissions are critically important but they’re not enough um not if we actually want to win this battle for hearts and minds and to ensure that we have continuing support to do the
Work that needs to be done I often say that in Canada and I would Hazard to Guess that it’s not dissimilar here there’s probably 20 20 to 25% of the population that is so concerned about climate change that they are willing to make sacrifices in their daily
Lives they are often young people they are often Church groups and social and Community organizations there’s probably 10 to 15% of the folks who don’t believe climate change is real or don’t think it is a very important issue but the bulk of people are in the middle they believe
Climate change is real they believe it’s important they think their government should address it but they also want to know that they’re going to have a job tomorrow they want to know they’re going to be able to afford to pay their mortgage and they want to certainly have
A view that their children are going to have a job and a standard of living that is not dissimilar to the standard of living that they have enjoyed themselves and so my personal view is if you’re going to win the war on climate change you have to to talk to people
About why they should be optimistic that the economy of the future the low carbon economy of the future can be a prosperous economy that is certainly something that I believe is true for Canada and I think it is true for most countries around the world who approach this in a thoughtful
Way they have approach it in a manner that actually tries to identify the comparative advantages that they have or can reasonably develop in areas that are going to be um significant in terms of a future economy that actually is a lowc carbon economy Canada is I would think quite advantaged
In that regard we have an abundance of raw materials raw resources that will be relevant in the context of a lowc carbon economy and we have a very well educated Workforce and we actually have a a very well-developed robust immigration system that actually helps us with some of the demographic
Challenges that countries in the G7 and other Western countries are experiencing and are going to experience um moving forward areas like critical minerals not just digging them out of the ground but there are going to be need for enormous expansion of critical minerals um but also the processing of critical minerals
Which presently takes place largely in China and needs to take place in a more Diversified way around the around the world the manufacturing of batteries the manufacturing of electric vehicles and other products hydrogen biofuels nuclear technology carbon capture and sequestration and Renewable Energy Technologies some of which there are
Countries that are far ahead like wind power with Denmark or solar power and Manufacturing in China but certainly areas like geothermal and biomass um we obviously need to be thinking about how we actually build Industries in the same way that the government of the United Kingdom needs
To think about how it will create industries that are going to benefit from the changes that are going to need to happen Canada also needs to have a thoughtful approach as to how we manage the transition with respect to our oil and gas sector in the same way that the
United Kingdom does we have to be thoughtful about the fact that the the peak for oil gas and coal will happen this decade according to the International Energy agency um and there will be a decline as we see more Technologies like electric vehicles deployed in larger and larger numbers
And so how do you actually compete in a declining Market well you decarbonize you actually offer the lowest carbon products in the world you become you seek competitive advantage in a market that is going to be a shrinking market and you seek to develop a niche in non-combustion related applications of
Oil and gas that don’t contribute to climate change but can be things that provide value in petrochemicals in solvents and lubricants and building materials like carbon graphite and for hydrogen in low carbon hydrogen derived from natural gas certainly um I think the the subjects that are going to primarily be
Discussed today are in the areas of carbon management and hydrogen um certainly we are doing a lot of work on the carbon management side um we have a number of companies that are involved in carbon Management in uh in Canada and carbon management is obviously not not just carbon capture
And sequestration although that is important it is direct air capture um it is mineralization related Technologies it is Technologies associated with utilizing the oceans as a carbon sink so companies in Canada like sponte carbon cure carbon engineering deep sky and the oceans Network Canada are all looking at
Different areas in that I know there are similarly in the United Kingdom a number of carbon capture related technology companies including carbon clean carbonate systems and CCM Technologies they are all going to be critically important to decarbonizing heavy Industries like cement like steel manufacturing um like the the oil and
Gas sector refining and others certainly we are looking towards large scale deployment in Canada’s um oil sands area in in Alberta but certainly we are already seeing deployment in areas like cement with heidleberg facility in Edmonton uh the Air Products hydrogen facility in Edmonton we just announced
Or Dow just announced a 12 billion investment in the world’s first Net Zero petrochemical facility in Alberta we have Husky and other oil and gas companies doing this and I don’t know if folks noticed but um I was just at the Ia in Paris and one of the conversations
That uh that my Deputy was having was with black rock and uh and black rock was telling them about an investment they just made in Texas a huge investment in direct air capture um from using Canadian technology but led by ocidental pum um so certainly there is
Going to be enormous demand for this there are many applications and Industrial applications that are very hard to decarbonize um and through which we are going to need carbon related Technologies we also know from the ipcc that we almost certainly are heading towards an overshoot of what we need to
Do in terms of 1.5 degrees Celsius and we will need direct air capture and other Technologies like that negative emissions Technologies to be able to actually ensure that we get back to a track that is a sustainable track so working on those kinds of Technologies I would say is important in both countries
I think we need to be thoughtful about how we learn from each other how we utilize technologies that may be developed by each other in order to allow us to go faster and to do so in a way that is coste effective a long time ago I worked for a company called banan
Company which is one of the Global Management Consulting companies and I think the most powerful tool that the management consultancies often use is something very simple its best demonstrated practices where you essentially Benchmark what others are doing even within the own company’s own different operations to learn about how
You can actually do things better and do things faster and that is something that we should be endeavoring to do in the G7 we should be endeavoring to do more broadly than in the G7 and that is certainly something that we are interested in working on with with the
United Kingdom going forward in terms of hydrogen there’s obviously people often talk about the colors of hydrogen green and blue and purple and turquoise and everything else um I don’t really like the the color sort of dichotomy I think that gets into a political conversation ultimately what really matters is the carbon intensity
Of the hydrogen and if you can actually derive hydrogen from natural gas in a very low carbon intensive way there should be no reason why you wouldn’t use that hydrogen VAV Renewables based hydrogen we have a lot of companies that are developing Technologies to take natural gas and to convert it into
Hydrogen in an ultra lowc carbon weight they certainly include optimizing longstanding hydrogen Production Technologies like autothermal reforming and steam methane reforming the Air Products facility I referenced is a is a modification of an autothermal reforming process that is modified in such a way that you can get very high levels of carbon
Capture but there’s also novel Technologies paralysis based technologies that actually offer promise to be able to eliminate carbon capture itself to be able to actually drop carbon out as a solid rather than as gas and then of course there are Renewables based technologies that um that are typically either wind or solar most
Often probably wind um to electroly and there’s certainly a lot of work going on in optimizing technology with respect to electrolysis um we are interested in all of those and I know the United Kingdom is interested in all of those again it is useful for us to be thinking about
How we learn from each other again I think we both are looking for sources of investment uh in projects to help us to go further faster with respect to decarbonization and with respect to building that economy of the future so I’m not going to spend a lot
More time talking but I guess I would say um for those of you who are in the finance Community we are a country that is very much open for business in terms of trying to find pathways through which we aggregate investment in projects that are are going to help us to actually
Move more quickly time is not our friend in the fight against climate change and we are in a global competition in terms of building the economy of the future anybody who uh who doubts that should read the world economic Outlook and um and look at both the speed of the change
But where some of the changes are happening most quickly so one of the facts in there that was I found quite interesting is three years ago one in 25 Vehicles sold around the world was Zero emission last year it was one in five that happened in less than three years that’s an amazing
Change but also where this change is happening China is now the world’s largest developer and deployer of renewable energy technology China is now one of the either number one or number two of of uh manufacturing electric vehicles and the number one deployer of electric vehicles China Now controls the
Bulk of critical minerals um around the country around the world and almost all of the critical minerals processing China has made a very thoughtful and strategic bat on the energy transition and any Western countries that actually want to ensure long-term Prosperity better get going and so we need to be
Working together we need to be thinking forward about how we do this climate change is not going away but those who actually are not thoughtful and strategic about where we are going are going to get left behind and their economies will suffer so we welcome I certainly welcome your interest in this
Subject I welcome the conversations that are going to happen we would certainly welcome your participation in some of the work that we are trying to do in Canada but we’re also very interested in the work that is going on here in the United Kingdom so with that I thank you
For your attention and i’ be happy to answer a few [Applause] questions I’ll gra my I’ll do that later the the Q&A kind of was sprung up on us but awesome that the minister has agreed uh sorry spont spontaneity is the what is it I don’t even know what the
Expression is but yeah it’s open to Q&A so we have about 5 to S minutes so um if there’s any questions um I’m not sure if we have a mic running up uh yeah we do actually have a mic so if you have a loud voice tell me and then but there’s
First questions right there so we’ll check it out if uh go ahead see if it works or have okay then problem I’m here representing the Scottish P Innovation Network and because I’m representing Innovation I have to ask what do you think the greatest challenges to innovators in Canada working in carbon capture and
Hying which which challenges are they facing why is it so difficult for them or is it not difficult for them at all in terms of getting to Market and getting to scale and capturing the heart of the of the wi industry position so I mean I think there’s
Probably a few ways to answer that question um starting a company in these spaces is is often easier than growing that company um these are long cycle time Technologies they take a lot of development um a lot of development means a lot of money um and finding your
Way through that long valley of death before you get to commercial viability um particularly for a product like a carbon management product where the market is still evolving um is not simple I I see Brett hankle in the audience Brett actually used to work for
Me in uh in a company I ran that was a hydrogen company but Brett is one of the founders of sponte which is a carbon capture company you’ve been at it for 15 years more but yeah years right yeah and uh and uh are are at the cusp of commercialization um
But uh but they are one of the few that has had the the the Good Fortune to find the investment um I think your last raise was $260 million um so I think that’s the biggest challenge is to find a way to sustain yourself through that long cycle time
Period it’s not like an app where you can you know design the app in a few months and and and all of a sudden you’re able to generate revenues um and that means um and I know you know there are people who think that the free market should decide everything that
Means that governments actually do have a role to play there have to be instruments to help with early stage R&D to help companies actually get through that in Canada we do that through the tax system through uh through what’s called our shred program uh that is refundable for for companies before they
Are uh public and and that helps them in terms of funding their research and development we also have organizations like sustainable development Technologies Canada that will partner on demonstrations and provide some of the capital to do it and we have Venture Capital that’s government funded to help to actually participate in in providing
Equity Capital but that is a critical thing um and uh and unless the government is willing to play a role in that it’s extremely difficult for long cycle Technologies to get to the end um okay so we have time for two questions and I see two hands which is
Awesome so the gentleman in the white shirt and then the the lady after the gentleman so those are the last two questions thank you very much I’m going to try and Link all the things you said into one question um on benchmarking um my name is Henry tman I deal with energy
Advisory um and I’m a specialist in thorium so um in the 72 when Nixon stopped it kandu kept it going yes and you kept it going until the United States government relased the patent to China in 2011 yes so now we have China Russia Indonesia all doing this and
We’re talking about 20,000 gigs per per machine around uh around 2030 so in competition where do you see yourself in that and of course you were in part of kandu so you were there 40 40 years ahead of time thank you so you talking about the nuclear K
Thorium as part of it thorium power thorium MSR so I’m not an expert on thorium um but I would say that with respect to to more broadly nuclear technology um you’re right Canada has been a leader in that from a long time and kandu was was is a significant contribution to um to
Growing the nuclear sector around the world we have we have U units in a whole range of different countries and I think you know we’re probably probably know we’re building two new ones in in Romania right now um and are looking at a refresh of the entire design to
Actually um be a competitor with respect to uh to large scale nuclear going forward um there’s also as you know huge amounts of work going on in a number of countries including here in the United Kingdom on small modular reactors I had a long convers ation with u Minister
Coutino um about that I guess it was yesterday um in Paris uh and and that’s an area that I think is right for um both technology development but actually for near-term commercialization I think there is a very bright future for the nuclear industry not that nuclear is
Going to solve all of our problems it is not a silver bullet but it is an area where um there are certainly geographies including some of the provinces in Canada where it’s very difficult to see how you get to the grid of the future which is a much bigger electricity grid
Um without some utilization of nuclear energy hi Amanda van djk I’m with Arch a private Equity Fund um you mentioned something about decarbonization and the ocean and and the Canadian technology or company that was working with respect to decarbonization of the ocean um and that
Link I one like to know a little more about that but two I’m actually curious given that the role sort of the ocean actually plays in decarbonizing the world and how that’s threatened and the fact that the oceans or the vast majority of the oceans that
Cover 75% of the Earth are not are not really under the jurisdiction of any one country is there any do you know of any efforts that are working specifically to to address that yeah so um there are a number of different thoughts about how you um how
You do carbon management and and the ones that are most familiar would be um carbon capture and sequestration or direct air capture there’s a lot of work going on on mineralization on using M tailings to actually do uh do carbon capture um the oceans Network Canada uh
Work is really around um by and large sequestering under the seabed um like what Norway does Norway does that already um but certainly we can provide you some information if you were interested in that I I think you you’ve got to look at novel ways to do it I
Mean just using the ocean um the ocean is pretty full of CO2 already and that’s why we’re seeing coral reef dying and everything else so you’ve got to be thinking about novel ways of actually utilizing the seabed for example in terms of of international law or regulation with respect to the oceans it
Is a CH all um and has been a continuing challenge for a number of decades because of the fact that it’s not under the jurisdiction of any particular country once you get beyond the the intern the international boundary um the way that we the International Community has tried to address that is through
Treaties basically governed under the international under the United Nations and so there are um there’s work on um on how do you deal with the fishery that is outside of boundaries which has been a big problem because you have huge commercial operations that are going around scooping up enormous amounts of
Fish far more than it’s sustainable on a go forward basis there’s a lot of work that’s been done in the last couple of years around seabed mining um and whether we should be allowing seabed mining um whether it’s uh close to close to your Shore or internationally I think
The the emerging View and certainly Canada’s view is we should not be allowing seabed mining um at least right now until we know more about what the impacts on the ecosystem would be but it’s really Case by case issue by isue precisely it’s got to be done in an
International Forum of some kind if you’re going to have countries abide by whatever it is that you’re hoping everybody will abide by so perfect well thank you very much uh Minister for your [Applause] remarks perfect so now we’ll actually invite the minister back up on stage so
I know I know he can down but he’s going to be back up for an opport Unity for a moderated conversation so I’ll invite Mike ctre from the saskat research Council and Simon Maine from Brookfield Asset Management to come up on stage and it’ll be we’ll have a we’re running a
Little bit late but hopefully we brought in a you know a little bit of um buffer time um in in the agenda and if people are okay with having their coffees a couple five or 10 minutes late then I think we can kind of you know push into
The break a little bit but yeah it’s a uh this is an opportunity to talk with Mike and and the minister about the changing energy Landscapes and give a Canadian perspective okay I hope this is on and you can hear me okay um I I I was not
The original uh uh participant in this moderated panel I’m not from the financial times I’m afraid so I’ve sort of stepped in at the last minute under request from the from the high commission here so uh apologies and go easy with me if I’m getting it wrong so
I will I’ll I’ll lean on my guests to uh be kind to me um I I’m from Brookfield we’re a leading international invest 900 billion uh dollars of assets under management globally across a range of infrastructure uh uh areas including the world’s largest transition funds dedicated transition funds under which
We’ve raised $25 billion so far for dedicated investment and that includes areas uh such as carbon capture hydrogen uh industrial decarbonization uh projects as well as traditional Renewables batteries and everything like that so um uh coming at this with some uh sort of wide range of
Interest um as you can tell from my accent I’m British but this is now the second time this week I’ve been in the high commission uh so I feeling like an honorary Canadian uh with every with every day that goes by working for Brookfield and being invited to this
Wonderful building so uh anyway that’s a bit about me we’re obviously here with the minister honorable Jonathan Wilkinson and with Mike ctry the CEO and president of the Saskatchewan re resarch Council so uh we’re going to just uh uh cover some topics here and um uh I think
The first thing to say is and you mentioned it Minister you’ve come straight from Paris uh we’ve had the ia uh annual ministerial meeting I think it’ be great to hear a little bit about what was going on this week I think both of you were there actually so hearing
Some Reflections about about that meeting and what are the top Hot Topics in the in that session so yeah it was the uh the annual meeting but but it was actually the 50th anniversary of the Ia and so it was uh probably a bigger event than than is
Normally the case um I’m sure most folks know who the Ia is but the Ia is a grouping of I think it’s about 37 countries with the number of associate members so I think it’s about 43 or 44 in total it was interestingly enough it was formed um During the period of the
Oil embargo um and it was formed in order to essentially have largely consuming countries figure out how to respond to the oil embargo and and so the focus was really on alternative sources of Supply but also on Energy Efficiency um and uh and the IIA has evolved over time um
Into I would say the leading organization from a thought perspective in terms of the energy transition so it does not just deal with oil and gas now it deals with Renewables and and uh hydrogen and critical minerals and and everything else and certainly it is probably the go-to source of information
For many folks in terms of where this is going um we we met uh in the aftermath of cop um to talk about how we we think about this in the context of the energy transition and how we operationalize some of the the commitments we made at cop around the tripling of renewable
Energy and a range of other things um it is in part a group that is about having conversations that gets everybody on the same page such that we go home and we actually operationalize that in in individually and it includes Japan it includes the United States it includes
All of Western Europe uh it includes South Korea I mean it is a huge organization does not yet include India although that is that is uh on the pathway and it doesn’t include China but but by and large it is a a very large and Powerful grouping of of countries um
I think there is a huge amount and a deep consensus that we must figure out how to move more quickly that we must be actually um thoughtful in terms of how we are approaching the issues that I talked about in my speech I think the the big addition if you read the
Communic this year was for the first time ever we talked about the role of nuclear energy that has been controversial within the Ia for some time there are some countries that don’t feel they need it and some countries that that have historically had had some more negative views around the role of
Nuclear energy I think everybody now understands that not for every country but in aggregate there must be a role for nuclear energy going forward um and that was affirmed in the communic so I think it was largely about continued momentum around the energy transition and again I would just reaffirm one of
The things that that I said about the Ia is that it in in the most recent report that it put out which was again affirmed by all of the governments around the table the view is that this is ongoing it is is accelerating and that particularly as it relates to fossil
Fuels that gas oil and coal are going to peak in the very near term and we are all going to be part of that transition that is going to end up with a future that looks quite different that’s great and Mike do you want to share some Reflections yeah i’
I’d like to say first there a clear dynamic between myself and the minister here because the minister I think Oxford Road scholar was uh was Cambridge which we all know is vastly superior um so I’d just like to get that St I just call it the other place the the
Other place we I won’t say what we called you um the um so the I was also the uh the Ia and uh as an observer there and and what struck me was that um on top of what the minister said there was a was a
Real genuine um call to action and a lot of uh a lot of uh I’d say guarded realistic optimism about uh about the route forward and I think um being coming from a sort of technical engineering business investment background what what I found was really interesting was and this was said
Several times is that there are two main tracks for um establishing uh the pathway to the energy transition the first is to look at existing technology that are out there that are um that we can innovate those Technologies improve them and move them forward and then secondly there are
The technologies that either have not yet been even thought of but certainly not developed through to any any commercial commercial extent and I think that the message I got which was really really important was is that we have to focus on both of those routs I I would
Argue slightly more to the to the former because we’ve got to get this thing moving and um you know Perfection is the enemy of uh of us moving forward with the energy transition and then certainly also look at the the new technologies as well and hopefully I’ll get a little bit
Of a chance to talk about SAS skatan and ssc’s position in some of these some of these areas that’s great and um since you brought it up I bet a tie break between the two of you I was an Oxford man so I’m going to there we go two to
One can we have a show of hands with yes indeed I just before we sort of move on to some of the opportunities that are happening in Canada itself just at the international level while we’re on that subject the in the global security issue has risen right back to the four I think
It’s interesting to hear the history of the Ia that begins as a energy security uh body and now that that Dynamic is right back in our in our face with uh whether it’s Russia Ukraine whether it’s uh Yemen and the Red Sea or whether it’s the challenges in the Middle East more
Broadly uh just any Reflections on the the relative waiting in your conversations around is decarbonization slipping away and energy security coming up is there a is there a recognition that these are reinforcing H how’s that changing the dynamic on the international stage yeah it’s interesting um you do
Hear some folks saying that you know energy security is rising and and I think it is uh in terms of its importance and and its prominence and that that somehow actually is going to slow the energy trans transition I I would actually make the reverse argument which is that the energy security
Concerns that exist today are actually accelerating the energy transition so I I chaired the the gas task force um for the ia uh coming out of the brutal Russian invasion of Ukraine when we were trying to figure out how to help Europe and help Germany in particular with its
Its natural gas problem um and the Ia again was the leading thinker in terms of this developed a 10-point plan as to how you could actually start to address this some of it of course was Finding different sources of liquid natural gas but a lot of it was around how do you
Actually switch how do you be more efficient and in the aftermath of the Russian invasion of Ukraine Europe as a whole has reduced its gas consumption by about 15% um that’s a big step forward and it’s a step forward towards more security they also are increasingly
Looking at the transition as a way to enhance security so that they’re not dependent in the same way on sources of Supply that are less Democratic and less in terms of sharing common values and being able to to rely on themselves renewable energies are intensely local
Right you you build the wind farms the solar Farms the biomass facilities the Geo geothermal the nuclear power plants you don’t need to import all of these things you have far more security of Supply so I think it is the way in which most of of uh the folks in the west are
Thinking about it is we are going to accelerate this in order to achieve energy security the one caveat that I will put on that is um we have to ensure that as we move through this transition we don’t end up in the same situation with another strategic commodity and
That particularly in the energy transition context is critical minerals right now the bulk of supplies of many of the critical minerals are controlled by China not just in China but in Africa and other places the processing techn Technologies and this is where the SRC comes in are largely Chinese inventions
And Chinese controlled even like the lithium processing plants in Australia are owned by China and the technology is Chinese we have to get to a point where there is greater diversity of supply of critical minerals and there are options in terms of processing Technologies particularly options that exist in the
West where there is greater reliability and you don’t have to be in a position where another country that may not be be fully aligned from a values perspective can exert influence and so that one is something that is enormously important Canada is working on that but we are
Partnered with the United States with the United Kingdom with France with Germany on trying to figure out and with Australia um trying to figure out how we actually drive that forward very quickly to ensure that that energy security issue is addressed okay that’s pry interesting and maybe we could sort of continue on
That thread and maybe this is a moment to talk about what’s going on in skat maybe and uh maybe we can come to the wider uh economy in Canada what’s the contribution here that that Canada can provide I’m going to segue question to question the um I think that over the
Last two years we’ve had an energy shock for all of the reasons that we know and I I think it does have an immediate impact on the population when you’re when you’re shivering in your living room guess you can’t keep the you can’t keep the heating on your first thought
Is not to you know we need to move to an energy transition cuz cuz that’s the way to however the coroller of that is as we come out of that the realization is that Supply chains and Reliance has to change so that that doesn’t happen again and I
Think we’re starting to get into that point and I mentioned that that magic phrase there Supply chains and um I think we we’re understanding and everybody in this room understands that we’re moving from a hydro hydrocarbon 20th Century Century to a minerals energy century and and and and possibly possibly
Beyond the supply chain that we’ve used for our energy so far is 120 years old it is the most advanced it’s the most efficient it’s the most globally integrated supply chain for the provision of oil and gas it is operating now it is it is inexpensive it is
Efficient and it delivers on what it say says it’s going to deliver there’s a lot of redundancy in there even with the sort of shocks that we’re seeing in the Middle East we’re transitioning away from a 120 year old very very mature supply chain into a
Supply chain that we’re making up as we go along here what we need to do is to understand and learn from the oil and gas um fully integrated supply chain and that’s what in Saskatchewan SRC in its in its own way is looking to do and the emphasis is
Not just on Supply Chains It’s on fully vertically integrated Supply chains chains so you can create that level of robustness and efficiency within within the systems and I’ll hopefully get an opportunity to talk a little bit about that in terms of Global Supply chains what the uh Ukraine situation has as uh
Has taught us is that we need to look at Regional Supply chains integrated Regional Supply chains Canada is seen by the US frankly as being part of the North American uh supply chain piece as we move forward into into into into energy transition and um you know Canada
Will play a significant role in that I think Canada will also play a very significant role in the generation of the European in inverted Commerce Regional Supply Chain so integrated Supply chains the technology that is the Upstream the Midstream and the downstream pieces of that are what we at
Asrc are working on in a sort of industrial and commercialization uh mode it’s great to hear and I definitely want to have more detail but before I do I had one thought which is 120 year old supply chain equals efficient cheap relevant you’re creating a new one it
Might take another 120 years but let’s say we do it half the time or a quarter of the time how do we politically buy the time for those higher costs to flow into the system because even if you did it at lightning speed in 10 years or 15
Years you’re asking people to shoulder a cost what how do we how do we Broach that conversation how do we manage that with our political audiences I’m looking at you uh Minister yeah I mean I think that’s a good question I I would say first of all
I think the cycle times associated with with technology development and supply chain development have actually accelerated since the the dawn of the the the petrochemical age but um and and I think you know it’s it’s it’s instructive to think about wind and solar in that regard right um wind and
Solar 30 years ago was viewed as kind of early stage it worked way too expensive never going to get there um how did it actually come down that curve well Germany I mean Germany by and large um and a few other countries but Germany put in place a rate structure that
Allowed it to actually come into the market start to go down the technology cost reduction curve come down the manufacturing cost reduction curve and solar and wind are now the cheapest source of electricity that exists anywhere um uh and and I think that’s the model uh that that we are going to
See in many jurisdiction in many technology areas um we need to be able to accelerate that even faster um but I think in some of them we’re actually not talking about um very nent technologies that have to go all the way we’re talking about hydrogen related technologies that have been
Around for decades it’s about optimizing them optimizing them for performance optimizing them for costs and getting them to the point where they can actually be cost competitive but I would also say that it is important in the context of moving through this that we are thoughtful about affordability it
Can’t just be that everything the the additional costs associated with some of the the work that’s going to have to get done in the early stages gets passed on to Consumers because at the end of the day you will run into a pushback from consumers who we’ll say wait a minute I
Can’t take this anymore you know it’s affecting too much my ability to pay my mortgage or buy my groceries and so in the design of some of these things we need to take that into account um and and so you need to create programming that particularly for people on lower
And moderate incomes um that actually helps to buffer that I would say that we’ve tried to do that with a number of tools one is Canada pric is carbon we do um so does the European Union so does the United Kingdom so to most countries around the world we price carbon to try
To increase the the to ensure that people actually pay for pollution like it’s not a novel concept you should pay if you’re going to pollute um but at the end of the day we’ve structured it in such a manner that 80% of the Canadian families actually get more money back
Than they pay in in the price and in fact it works in reverse order to income so the the people who are better off significantly better off as a result of the price on pollution are the people who are most vulnerable so you’ve got to think about policy instruments in that
Context to try to ensure that affordability is part of the policy design As you move through all of these things I’m not saying it’s simple but at the end of the day this isn’t something that we’re doing simply because we like solar and we like wind and we like
Biomass and we don’t like oil and gas climate change is real climate change is happening and we are running out of time so we have to be very thoughtful about how we are doing this and we have to do it quickly that’s great that’s a very very good answer to that question so
Thank you um and I’m going to pick up now on um something you said about the Ia meeting which was the role for nuclear uh at the international level and that coming back to the four there were announcements at cop as well so there is a there is a talk of a nuclear
Renaissance and uh uh we we have interests at Brookfield we part own Westinghouse and uh with our with kamico headquartered in Saskatchewan so um I wonder if we could just get some thoughts from you both about where the where that nuclear Renaissance is going what are the how do the different
Technologies play a role and and where where is Canada going to support in each bit of that you know that’s another vertically integrated supply chain that we’ve got to take control of uh potentially so uh either one of you to go first maybe do you want me to start
You want to start I’ll go because I I just thought of a witty response to that which go for it um so uh uh SRC is introducing the first micro small modular reactor at first of a kind in the world and that is um a westing house ivinci
Reactor uh so I’ll be talking to you about a discount later on not me wrong person yeah yeah I know that’s not going to work the um so I I I think that um uh I thein will talk about the broader the broader the broader nuclear uh piece there I
Want I want to spend a little bit of time talking about uh about micro small modular reactors these are reactors that operate in total power output less than 20 megaw so put that in context uh the avinci machine that we’re looking at is a 5 megaw about 15 megawatt total
Power it’s a heat engine so it’s an air cooled reactor it’s transportable um it is ideal for um applications in Northern saskat one in terms of um in terms of it its its capabilities um put that in context the the avinci would would could would Supply power to about 3,000 homes so
It’s about that sort of scale it would be something that we could um it is a nuclear battery essentially leaves the factory fully fueled is deployed at sight provides power or heat uh industrial heat or power for up to 10 years uh once the uh fuel is spent
Within the reactor the whole reactor is taken back to the factory or another site for uh for defueling and refueling it is genuinely a nuclear battery in terms of its application in um in Saskatchewan two very interesting jurisdictions uh parties that are interested in this the first is the mining operations
Northern mining operations who believe it or not often power their uh Ms sites with diesel uh diesel costs around about 70 cents per kilowatt hour uh and has all of the carbon intensity implications on that Saskatchewan is in a different position from uh the likes of Ontario
Quebec and and British Colombia in the sense that those um those uh provinces might be operating on 85 or even 90% Renewables nuclear and Renewables Saskatchewan is inverted we have 85 to 90% still fossil that is an existential challenge for the for the province and one that is is recognized and it’s an
Existential Pro uh problem for the mining operations as well because when they they say great place to mine so this is investors folks in this room great place to mine great place to uh great management teams great resources etc etc what’s your root to Net Zero oh
And by the way somebody told me that you use diesel to power your your money so there is a real driver to move to that that Net Zero piece and micro small mular reactors are a real opportunity to to do that particularly when they’re incorporated as base load within
Renewable microgrids which is another area that we we’re looking at there so what’s the role of SRC SRC does what the Saskatchewan research to council Lo does where research with a small R development with a bigger D and very big commercialization that’s what we do we about $300 million Revenue 450 engineers
And scientists and techn technicians um you can tell it’s SRC because if you spill matches on the floor the chorus from the management team goes 126 so the where that kind well that kind of organization but very heavily focused on commercialization so uh nuclear reactors small modu reactors
We’ll be bringing in first of a Kind probably the first in the world most likely by 2029 were funded by government of Saskatchewan to do that uh other areas that we work in these very big projects Rare Earth we’re building the what will be the first vertically integrated rare Earths processing plant
Monite to ndpr Metals uh that will be operational this year parts of the plant are already we’re already producing commercial commercial grade uh Metals as of last week funded funded largely by federal federal government for that particular uh uh part and then the other area that we’re
Looking at is um is lithium processing very much in the Midstream so we’re looking at spine through to lithium hydroxide again our role is to prove out the technology prove out the financial viability so that investors such as many of the folks in this room can look
Forward 15 years and see a mature route to return on investment that’s our objective and thirdly to to prove out markets so that’s very much the role of of SRC within Saskatchewan and as a as a as a Canadian resource let me let me just say uh one
Thing two two things um the first is actually one of the dangers of throwing away your speech is you you actually forget I was supposed to make an announcement that we were giving you $5 million um so um so uh well you did that yesterday this is an extra $5 million
But the work that they are doing in rarus is is very interesting for the government of Canada and I would tell you it’s very interesting for the Americans as well some of the rers that that they are looking to process actually have unique military applications so the Americans are very
Interested in that it’s certainly an area that we want to see uh um accelerate and proceed going forward on your question though about nuclear I mean as you will know as an owner of um of uh Westinghouse there’s kind of two categories there’s large scale nuclear facilities um where the westing house
Design I think is probably outside of China and India probably the most ubiquitous in terms of of um nuclear facilities and the second one being the candu which is came out of the government of Canada and the intellectual property remains um property of the government of Canada um
There will be a role for large- scale nuclear for sure um and there are a number of countries around the world that are looking at actually building I mean France has already announced they’re building six new ones um and Ontario is going to be building a couple
Of new ones um but then there’s this whole unique area of small modular reactors which is um what what was being referred to and there there’s number of categories you know different applications in different sizes Canada is actually deploying the first large scale small modular reactor a 300
Megawatt reactor at the Darlington site in Ontario it’ll be running in 2028 and I think the rest of the western world is looking at that particular thing but then there are very small ones that are either Community Based or are focused on Industrial applications like getting rid
Of natural gas to get extract vitamin to reduce the carbon intensity of the oil from from Alberta those there’s a bunch of work going on in countries everywhere and the one concern I have about it I mean the 300 megawatt doesn’t doesn’t compete with the 5 megawatt reactor um
And the technology sets are different but is at some point there’s going to have to be a shake out of Technology because if you’re going to the point of the small modular reactor is modularity right you can build it you can actually ship it largely to site maybe in
Components um but it’s to get to get that value of modularity which is partly associated with manufacturing and if everybody’s making one you’re never going to get to the cost level that you need to so somehow at over time at least in sort of size sets um you’re going to
Have to have some shake out of the technology if you’re ever going to achieve the cost levels that you need to achieve no I totally agree well I’m being waved at a lot by these folks down in the front so I’m I’m going to leave
It there and uh say thank you very much to you both and uh we’ll show our appreciation and uh have a copy