The public sector is being called to work more ambitiously, systemically, and respectfully on the most urgent and complex social and ecological challenges of our time.
Our goal with this CoP is to explore the radical and transformative edges of strategy and practice in PSI units and labs in relation to moving toward ecological and/or social justice, in all of its many forms. We are seeking practitioners who are currently working within or directly alongside a public sector organization in an innovation capacity to join this CoP. Together, we will explore, experiment, reflect, and learn about pushing the boundaries of PSI and share our insights and experiences with other practitioners and applied researchers beyond this CoP.
Hosting Team:
La 27e Region, Independent Association for innovative methods for designing public policy
Lily Raphael, City of Vancouver Solutions Lab
Penny Hagen, Ph.D., Director Tangata Tiriti of The Auckland Co-design Lab
Francisca Rojas, Ph.D., Academic Director for the Bloomberg Centre for Public Innovation at Johns Hopkins
Lindsay Cole, Ph.D., Project Lead, University of British Columbia, and Emily Carr, University of Art and Design
Maggie Low, Ph.D., Action Research Lead, University of British Columbia
Peyvand Forouzandeh, Action Research Assistant, University of British Columbia
For more information visit our website: https://www.transformingcities.ca/pushing-the-boundaries-of-PSI.
Thanks Pand so um welcome again to pushing the boundaries of public sector Innovation uh this uh today’s topic is number three in theory of change and we are your co-host so team there can give a little wave Sean and Georgia and I already forget your name pH Philip phip Philip I got it
I remember um from 11 have designed this series uh with us and uh and these are your other co-hosts in the larger project I’ll talk a little bit at the end about the um the next series that’s starting in a couple short weeks um but in the meantime settle in
And relax and know that you’re well hosted here in our in our um in our journey together um the the series um you can go to the next slide Stefan this um this process is a multi-on um Learning Journey I guess in our community of practice together so we’re
In the we’re just finishing up this first Loop this first cycle on theories of focused on theories of change for transformation and um in you can see we’re in February not December of course the timelines have shifted as they do the next cyle is focused on connecting inner and outer transformation work and
Will begin in February the third cycle is TR to take a little bit of shape and um we’ll have more news on that one soon I think and we’re going through until later this year with uh with a few more um sessions in the fall also to be
Determined but this is where you are in our Meandering uh series of discussions about uh pushing the boundaries of public sector Innovation we have a very special guest today um Cecil from SE po who is going to um take us through or provoke us I guess maybe provoke Us in some um
Conversation about depoliticization and conflict and tension and debate and the role of public sector Innovation and innovators in that space as part of our practice uh and then we have some discussion prompts for us um to to talk about what Cecil invites us into uh through her presentation um a little bit about
Theories of change again um for those of you who been here before you’ve seen this already little cartoon about um why I think theories of change are interesting and important for us to talk about and explore as people doing public sector Innovation work um as we think about pushing the boundaries of our
Practice so um bearded neck tied person saying um pointing out the strategy for a program where um we have an activity of lunch subsidies for schools that will lead to this amazing outcome of ending world hunger without unpacking some ideas that are probably and activities that are probably essential in between
Those spaces so this is a little bit tongue-in-cheek for us I think as people who do public sector Innovation work but not too far off from some of my experiences where we’re given a very ambitious outcome or we set it for ourselves and um don’t always have the
Theory the conditions the resources the skills required um the time often required to to actually get us to where where we’re trying to go so we are um in this series um focused on theories of change really exploring this space in between uh act our activities and our
Big goals to see if there’s some ways that we can improve our practice in that space uh over to you Stefan and Georgia Thank You L say so yes for for those of you who discover this group uh have in mind that we are uh um we are trying to
Explore how to uh how we could um handle more radical theory of change in the in public sector Innovation uh so a few words of where we are now for those of you who were not attending the two last session um we had two interesting sessions uh session one and session two
Where we discovered uh that if we want to build more radical theory of change then we we not we need to be careful about language and uh this is connected with the example of the city of non who who made a presentation based on what they called markers they got a six
Markers who are sort of theory of change on social justice ecological transition uh Coalition of territories and and so on and we saw how they care about the how they describe the diagnosis the priorities uh the the direction that they want the also the criteria of
Success that they want to use uh to uh to build a common vision for all the civil servant in the city so um if you if you want to to know more you can have a look to the link that that we have mentioned but we also had an interesting
Presentation showing us that uh when we want to handle complex issues like territories where there are identities issues like like um overseas territories of France like laion then we had an interesting conversation about how do you uh need to reveal the tabos of the history of the island of the different
Communities um and and and how it uh it creates kind of trigger points uh um uh is Isabelle who made the presentation was organizing a training on cultural resilience in R Island and she described very interestingly how it create change in the mindset of people how it was
Trigger point they realized that the history of that they have a better understanding of the history of the island and and why there were so many opposition and and and so on so again you can have a look to the uh the presentation she made on on the so we we
Had a few insights of how to get there and how to to be more radical but the the topic that we want to share with you today is okay we we we uh we all are people who want to do radical change but how to do it uh in in a situation of
Contrary wains uh when the public debate is is so shrinked locked and polariz since since a few years uh both in North America and and in Europe uh so it’s like going in the other side of the of the trend so how do we do that um and that’s why today we we
Want to uh to to engage a conversation about how do you how do you take public debate democratic debate the situation of public debate today in your theory of change what what what’s need to be done when you build your theal change not to be disconnected with the situation of
The ocratic debate and just to um give you a few uh uh sign of what we get here in France uh a few weeks ago we have launched a small survey uh in our in our in in a 20 local government here in France about feminism uh how do uh cities like
Paris or countes or or Regional government uh deal with feminism uh and uh because all of them have interest in it and are they have policies and so on and what we have get from this small uh survey again it’s not a very uh scientific survey but um first there is
The issue that uh there is no not much diversity in in administration uh so the minorities are not there so we are uh and the uh and most of the top manager are are men um so above Beyond even feminism we got a problem with when we talk about
Minorities but they are not there uh there is also this phenomena that we get is that when when you talk about feminism within Administration uh there are two different situation one is there are seen the people in charge of feminism uh gender activities and so on I sometimes
See as dangerous activist uh because uh they are seen as people who come from social fight and so on so they are they are avoided overpass because they have Seena activist or in the other in the other direction they they uh because the um they are not systematically pushing strong policies
Or it’s not it’s mostly gender mainstreaming uh it’s it’s seen as feminism washing so it’s it’s we are we were very upset to see that it was not so easy to deal with feminism within public organization those days in in France at least I don’t know in in us even or
North America even if I have got some ideas but we we can bring this on the table it’s it’s really not not so easy in France uh of course there is also also the the problem of uh of uh words who make people angry uh so uh the words like workism
Interality are kind of word that you cannot use within organization um and uh there is really a polarization of the debate here in France uh there are books uh uh the Press is talking about this I mean it’s really very polarized so uh be careful
Of the world use when when you deal with social justice and this kind of thing in in public organization and there is also the idea that there are mechanism that that stuck public debate and this is what Cil today with us we talk about it’s called depolitization so we feel that many uh
Many public project many uh many not notably in the field of innovation are depoliticized so we don’t want to see the political part of it but just the uh uh the neutal aspect of it even if we don’t think that any project is neutral uh but
Uh and this is what we we’d like to share with you today is how do we um how do we deal with this shrinking public debate how do we uh uh identify how it happen and and of course what can we what could
We do to uh to to overpass it to to to to to to to to handle it uh so it’s not only uh sharing the diagnosis and getting your experience and and your own examples but in the last part of the session we we’d like to find ideas
Insights strategy tips uh because we feel that we it’s getting more and more difficult so this is where we are but don’t hesitate to ask any question if uh if things are are not clear so today are and just for your uh your for for you
Remember we we have used these uh these drawings to to to to to show where we where we are you want to EXA yes um actually uh this drawing may be not new to who already participated to the previous session on the change but actually for New Commerce actually uh me
And Stefan when we were reflecting on the rational Gathering these uh three sessions on different aspects of public uh sector Innovation on how to make it more radical um we wanted to represent it to give a a representation which was less technical um less operational but maybe more profound or
Um actually linked to the the idea and the mindset that we wanted to share we with you and to discuss with you um and so just to describe it to describe this kind of uh tree our idea is that change and in this case the a theory of change
Is root uh in a nonlinear path that can take different uh paths at at the same time dealing with uh problems which are even weak weak sometime um also un aspected events a lot of complexity um and in this process we are trying to um seeing all the aspects and the ingredients if
You want that can lead to uh to change to the direction that we expect that uh the impact that uh we we want to create and these ingredients these uh um energy in our idea comes from uh experimentation to a um a prototypical approach to training a discussion and
Also um to participation from participation so all these uh um ingredients in this occasion in discussing about the the politicization actually are are bring are brought all together and also uh this discussion led us to um thinking and discussing about how we have to question and change also
The The Roots uh of the system that we want to uh to change and innovate so we have to deal with um seeing and changing perspective on values and beliefs that are the basis of another uh rock that we have to to question and to break in a
Metaphorical way it is uh the dominant or the dominant systems um that our public actions or uh Pro public process are rooted on and so actually uh I think that this closing uh perspective on on uh the politicization actually opens to the discussion on all uh these elements and uh gives us the
The the perspective of understanding how actually debate entails uh a multi-level um challenge um on all these um elements thank you ge Cecil are you ready to help us growing this tree against public poor and polarized public debate to try at least the Flor is yours uh so many thanks for the
Invitation of course uh and the presentation the introduction of my uh my uh intervention so um few words to to begin I am Cil Rober I am political science professor in um inum uh I teach I used to teach a lot on the European Union and European Union
Policies which are also my main research field with transparency and lobbying but I also like to work in a sematic and C disciplinary manner on for example manager realization expertise and depolitization which is the theme of my talk today so to do so I’m going to draw
On the book I edited and work on with colleagues from different disciplines as it is shown in the table of contents you you will see later so I think it’s a great opportunity for an academic book to shed light on the thought of those who take action and if it inspires or
Enlightens you little I’d be uh very delighted So In The Same Spirit all comments and criticism are welcome of course and I’m very interested in your feedback so of course I won’t present the book in details today I understand I understood for my discussion before with
Stan and Georgia um that this session is part of a longer process and you uh you say you you you say you say it again in your introduction of a longer process of reflection on the transformation of public action and the obstacles that can be encountered when trying to innovate
In this field so if maybe this reflection uh a reflection could be useful it could be for example because depolitization can be a difficulty in thinking about this transformation but also I hope a lever if we know how to identify it so given that uh we are on video and
That uh you have already understood it English isn’t my first working language it may be difficult for for you to understand me at time so please don’t hesitate to interrupt so in order to share uh with you some of the result and Avenue for reflection and action I’m going to
Follow the plan U below um I let uh Stefan um seting the slide so three three-part plan yeah exactly so first I’ll go back over some definitions as briefly as possible starting by defining depolitization uh what are we talking about in this book then in a second step I’ll try to
Identify a few clues that will help you I hope spot when you’re faced with a situation of depolitization this is the longest part as it explain how depolitization in our opinion works and also the circumstances and privilege context in which depolitization occurs and thirdly very quickly and
Depending in on the time available some thoughts on what is at stake in this depolitization why should we try to remedy it um and I hope that it will be possible to discuss the relationship with citizen in it implies um the relation between relationship between public action and
Democracy but also openness to knowledge openness to the social science so uh first what are we talking about in this book um as you can see on the slide table of contents this book is a project product so we have several years of exchanges with colleagues working on
Very different public policies in also very different National contexts for example security policies in major FR cities environmental policies management of the AIDS epidemic by international organization in Tanzania philanthropy and breast cancer in North America and Canada for example so in working together our goal was to use the pooling
Of very different situation to identify the common features that make these public policies or sometimes lack of them democratically undisputable so what do we mean when we talk about de politization um depolitization or depoliticization I don’t know exactly what which um which term is is the best um depoliticization consists in ways of
Saying and doing public policies or sometimes of renouncing to do them which have in common the fact that they work to circumvent the democratic debate on them they doesn’t they they they don’t appear as a public and political choice to do so there are mechanism of depolitization of public action that we
Have tried to identify in the book those mechanism are ways in which certain policies are made and thought about with the result that they are never put up for discussion they appear to be unavoidable or on the contrary Unthinkable without Stakes purely technical to study or to be able to
Identify depolitization of course we need a definition of what is a political decision um will be the last one I promise so political decision for us whether or not they are presented as such they are assumed as such are always choices which have consequences on the scale of
Society in other words those political decision decisions are never reducible to the P pure management of contraints arbitration in values between different or even contradictory interest so they are presented have sometimes pure management of constraints but there are always arbitration in values and between different or even contradictory interest
So I’ll give you a few example of political decisions that are Central for public policies we studied for example the choice in the fight against global warming to insist on citizen action uh we call that in French uh puty Gest um little G uh for Citizens so the fact to insist on
Citizen action without putting on the table the possibility of banning the most polluting industrial activities or sometimes um insisting on the fact that um um the degree of pollution is linked and very uh uh strongly linked to uh the poorness on the witness on the population for example in the case of
West cancer so um we the the the chapter in the book focus on the pink webon campaigns I don’t I don’t know if you see what uh I am talking about um and it shows that um the use those compaigns in France or in North America they they choose to construct
The the cancer as an individual battle uh rather than a public health issue Link in particular to Collective causes and the companies um are paying for the events around the pink ribbon campaigns are sometimes more the problem than the solution the choice uh another example of choice in the fight against the a
Epidemic in Tanzania of prevention policies via sex education and the setting up of dispensaries without mentioning uh mentioning uh without never mentioning a reform of the hospital system and I will come back later to the fact that the scientific studies on eights and eights uh propagation in Africa show that they
Are more linked to the state of the population and the state of the public hospitals than uh to the sexual practices but um with the io because it’s very difficult to have a discussion with the N they choose to insist on sexual uh education uh another example uh when it
Comes to managing conflict of interest or controlling lobbying at the EU level the choice to consider that the issue is transparency rather than limiting them so the limiting the lobbying and eics wi than the law and as a final example of Public Services for example um
With um sorry I uh for example the Public Services we can see that their territorial organization influence their financing their objectives they are assigned and the values they are asked to embody are all political choices between different possible option and um they are not always presented um as such uh in the public
Debate so in a democracy the choice between different public policy option should normally be the subject of a public and adversarial debate between different ex existing options and at the end of these debates elected representatives explain their choices and citizen can hold them to account but how can this Choice be
Removed from the debate disappearing from the eyes of those who make uh them and are the object of this public policy um so I come now to my second part and to explain how uh depolitization work how it is possible to see um public debates shrink as Stefan said just
Before by working together on very different public policy our aim was to identify common ways of saying or doing public action which have the effect of making Pol making so political choices disappear them today my aim is to share with you point of reference or perhaps
Whether clues that will uh enable us to identify when a process of depolitization is at work whether through the way in which the problem to be addressed is Con is construct by the public debates or through the decision making procedures that are favored by um Administration and political actors so
To do this I’m going to look at three dimensions first ways of saying so weal devices then ways of doing so certain types of decision- making processes uh that make the tradeoff and choices on which public policies are based purely invisible and third privilage context certain institutional or organizational
Context as well as social ones also make trade of less visible and less easy to debate political choices in public action of saying uh what are the typical ways of presenting public policy by depoliticizing them and obscuring the tradeoff uh we have uh identified and distinguished three of them
Um it is perhaps um the more abstract part of my presentation so I I will uh I will try to give some example the first method is to naturalize the decision uh we say in Fr natural I’m not sure that it is a good synonymous but uh it’s a
Way to present a political decision as they were imposed on those who make them as they were purely dicted by principle for example the law or constraints for example Health constraints uh but also economic constraints which will leave decision makers no room for maneuver no alternative so maybe uh you may
Recognize smar sat famous there is no alternative the Tina uh but more recently for example kites uh uh have who have worked on the history of tax policies in the United States have highlight the very important role played by fatalism and defeatism in legitimizing reforms aimed at lowering taxes for the weest they
Presented them always as the only possible way for example of preventing their expatriation and it plays a huge role uh in the um in the trajectory of this this public policy second ways of saying is to present the political choices as neutral objective impartial uh in other words it deny
Inequalities Upstream so the fact that the decis decision amounts to abating between distinct interest and it also uh inequalities Downstream by concealing the differ the differentiated effects on the of the decision on citizens so for example the study on the management of the a epidemic in Tanzania shows that International Organization are doing
Their utmost to avoid assuming the health inequalities that will result uh from the the strategy they they have adopted to prevent and the the diis they impose the Sorting of patients um but they delegate the responsibility of the sort to other actors Here Local NOS so they we welcome the
Cat um for example the article on local safety policies by elected Municipal official in France as nonpartisan and purely technical issues as the as if those safety policies were only um so as if there were only one way of conceiving safety as if it corresponded to the same thing for every citizen and
Also as if its maintenance were guaranteed in the same way everywhere and for everyone so um to avoid um them finally uh there are third ways of depoliticizing the issues at stake in public action it’s to individualize them to emphasize the individual responsibility for the occurence of the
Problem and its resolution in order to avoid constricting them con construced them as collective problems for example when it comes to dealing uh with the AIDS epidemic IO approach is a uh approach it as a problem linked to individual practices in this case sexual whereas epidemiological studies show that the
Causes are also and mainly Collective so as I said before the state of health of the population favors transmission and the diis is also so very very often CAU in hospitals we also see uh this in relation to West cancer as a matter of personal struggle uh minimizing environmental
Industrial causes but also in relation to the environment as is the fight against global warming depended uh above all on the small gesture of each individual and not on political decision Banning this or that product um and one of the ways of individualizing public problems is also to psycholog
Psychologize them so many problems apprehended with an individualistic and psychological psychology reading can also be the subject of a more social reading uh we have a lot example in in the book and in our mind and stret management at work for example work life balance failures at school uh and so on
So to sum up uh depolitization can take the form of individualization neutralization or naturalization and in each case these are ways of presenting problems that obscure the aspects that would legitimize discussion of them no room for maneuver no differentiated defs not a itive problem they no longer appear in the discourse as societal
Choices I I’d now like to return very very briefly to a second way of depoliticizing um of cutting short the debate which is not only a matter of discourse of course but also comes from the way institution are organized to deal with these problems of course um decision making procedures are very
Linked to um the way we construct uh um the issue the issue in the public debates but uh it’s important to uh an analyze them separately so the depoliticizing approaches to public action often often share two characteristics firstly they often involve recourse to expertise the law or the consultation of interest groups they
Keep they often keep political players at a distance and Rel them at least in part of responsibility for decision making they reinforce representation of the subject they deal with as purely technical uh issue uh in other world not requiring debate and aration uh for example um um the agen ification is a
Very uh uh good way of uh dealing with the public um issues without politicizing them um so their common feature uh the second common features um is uh that part of the work is carried out in secret this sequency is more or less total and more or less
Assumed and may be justified by the seriousness of the situation or the stakes involved or the N the sorry to protect those in charge from outside pressure but in all cases the idea behind the choice of sequency is that it is important um to consider the public
Nature of debate not as a necessary condition but as an obstacle for Effective uh delation um so uh a third clue element that may indic situation of depolitization concern the organizational institutional or cultural context I will be very brief on that di menion too we have identified several major reasons for resorting to
Depolitization um and it can be said that those strategies are more likely to be encountered in situation where first um political authorities want to avoid putting a new policy on the agenda or they want to limit its ambition so for example the psychologic psychologization of school failure whether rather than major reform of
Public school the promotion of small individual gesture was an rather than a more coercive Environmental Policy ethics rather than regulation Etc second context uh second type of context um context in which which political debate is perceived as an ineffective or even dangerous way of dealing with a problem for the first
Example is tragic choices uh so situation where the good the goods need needed to survive uh avoid suffering or any other problem are in short supply for the member of a community so for example a typical example is given by uh Heth quizzes and sanitary quizzes for example the
Covid where the the the political actors are uh have to do tragic choices and they want to avoid them uh um publicly debate they want to avoid public debate on that um other context are for ex for example cultural organizational and instit institutional context where politicizing a subject having a debate
Between several contradictory option appears to be something that can be dangerous for the community so three examp um for example um we observe uh this um at the level of small French rural commun the uh it appears that the smaller the village the more we hear about the need not to
Politicize while while at the same time we observe very violent conflicts between people because without um politization it becomes also personal so I will come back for some example if you want we can also think of certain in you the for example the EU where politicization is perceived as something
That can destroy cooperation destroy uh for example supernational institution and finally uh there are North American Authors I don’t know if you know Nina elas who have shown that in the North American context politicization is perceived sometimes as a negative emotion for individuals rather than an emancipating or liberating
One so it is a u advis to uh those people to avoid politics because it’s bad for for them for example women with breast cancer in the pink ribbon campaigns um they are told to be to avoid uh polit politics because uh it is bad for for health uh and for their
Positive attitude uh against the cancer so um I now come to my third and very uh quick part uh why uh uh opposing depolitization and wanting to Repoliticization as I I have tried to show uh in in in this presentation uh in the sense of bypassing democratic debate damages democracy creates ignorance uh among citizens and discourage them from getting involved and I have some example to share with you if we have time enough to do that um for the
Creation of ignorance and uh for the um fact that it discourages them from from getting involved um and the other reason is also why it is uh good to rep politicize at least to try uh in a more positive way U because uh repoliticizing means in particular uh first uh to ReDiscover
Alternatives to existing policy and maybe operations that may have been forgotten or dismissed too quickly and we opening debate uh on them so enlarging our public debate um it means also we politicizing to reflect more deeply on the effects and consequences of political choices and public policies in term of interest
And values uh what interests are at stake how they are taken uh how are they taken care of uh what values are preserved through a given choice of public policy and third uh um we politicize is also to involve or to try to involve citizen in the construction of public
Choices that concern them by presenting public policy as choices and making the issues at stake clear or more clear clearer um and if uh we we manage to to do that uh it encourages citizen to take an interest in public life and maybe to uh to take part in it uh more
Actively so um many thanks for your attention I hope that uh it was not too too long uh I haven’t seen any uh uh emergency warning no no no time again don’t it to to ask me if something was not clear uh it’s it’s quite hard to to speak English
At distance so sorry but you did well you did very well Cil um I I really like the generally speaking that you help us to have a more political vision of of change and and and public Innovation so uh uh more generally speaking thank you thank you
For that uh either there before we we shift to a a more reflexive moment where you will be invited to think about your own case situation Etc is there any question for clarification or um any comments from you guys I have I’ve got one question um Cecil I
Wonder uh I don’t quite know how to ask it yet but I’ll try um I’m just wondering about po like the relationship between what feels like a cultivation of more extreme polarity it’s either this or it’s that rather than like there’s a spectrum of possibilities in between show that
Because it seems like that is a is a is a depoliticizing maneuver like Cho it can be that any way where we we’re given these these start contrasting choices and then we have to we feel like we it can only be one thing or the other thing
And that we can’t actually discuss other possibilities in between I’m just wondering what your um if you what your views are about that about polarization um to be sure to to have um qu well understood what what you said you you mean to that the polarization of the debate could be
A way to depoliticize because it avoids public debate yes I think uh it’s a perfect example of what we uh uh of what we saw uh in front the last 10 years probably about a lot of subjects um for example uh we uh uh we have debates about uh um the the university
In France and the public university um concerning the fact that the rism is growing u a lot and as if it was the you know the the main problem of public university and during this period um we’ve we have lost uh the hugest amount of uh um jobs uh
Position uh and the private university uh has become a very very profitable Market uh in France uh increasing by a third uh so uh I think that sometimes to polarize and to uh is a way to avoid a public debate on other aspects of the issue or the object of the public policy
And sometimes it’s also a way to show that you know uh you see if we try to debate it will become a a huge mess so uh see uh it’s a big uh mess when um uh I think um that uh you know the for example um
The ah sorry uh we have a lot of book uh who have which have explored the depolitization from the perspective of um of party and uh for example in the United Kingdom and the quizes of party and they show that um um for example the polarization between the far right and
The far left uh is a way for the center uh to uh to get some uh home of maneuver uh to do some um apparently depoliticized public policies and to occupy the field I don’t know if it’s a good way of is if it’s a good translation so I think that
Yes uh we could also analyze polarization as a way of uh showing that a political debate is not a good way to have um um to construct and to build together public choices I I hope that uh I I answer to you question so I see that there is a
Question for you Cecil saying M enjoyed your presentation I asked can theory of change be helpful to support repoli and I think this is a where we are going now during this session is a um can we build theories uh and and what should these theories look
Like uh if we want to support repoli what you ask what you your your your our need for repoli what would you answer uh I think it’s a question for um The Specialist you are um I’d be delighted to help but I’m not um special Stu you
Know I I take I take the question and maybe I have I don’t know but I was thinking listening to you that maybe when we build theory of change we should include in our evaluation criteria uh what you have described I mean how do we uh how do we have a a
Vision uh on on the risk on the five risks on the five phenomena that you describe naturalization Etc so maybe we should include it in our theory of change and especially in our evaluation tools or our uh negotiation tools when we uh accept project or negotiate for project maybe we could include those
Kind of criteria I think I must admit that we don’t specifically look at this for now and and I think we should we could be better at including your five uh um yeah your your five mechanism in our in our theory of change and especially in our evaluation
Tools I might also add that I think that um we we can the in the inward work of a of an innov of an individual innovator or a team or a unit can make sure we’re not depoliticizing our own practice let alone the outward the our own um the way
That we think about what it is that we’re doing because I’ve seen lots of examples of labs that use the word innovation without saying what they mean by that um or I think there’s some they’re not simple but there’s there’s accessible I I think things that we can
Do as practitioners to make sure that we’re not falling into the traps that you’ve described Cecil in our own practice in our own ways of working because when we’re in these contexts that are kind of asking us or requiring us to depoliticize our work in different
Ways subtly often um we can just get into that being the usual way that we have to work without thinking about them and pushing back against that um there is a I wonder what well I wonder what the person was it Martin I wonder if you have I don’t know if you
Want to jump in on that but like what do you think about your question yeah hold on let me turn my video on yeah I I can say a word on that I think that um just by going through the whole process of theory of change you try to make your assumptions
Explicit you try to make trade-offs explicit um you you open yourself up for for input and for criticisms for reflection so I think the process itself of developing a TC is already like a form of of repoli repoliticization um and and um yeah so so I think just going through that
Process is already a form of that and if you then also open up that whole proc process for more like outside stakeholders yeah you you even make it more more so I think there is also an interesting comment from Annie but I think she had to leave but she says how to
Depoliticize when you’re a civil servant and I think that’s something we always we often hear from civil servant who are supposed to be neutral uh so maybe Cecil how how what kind of advice could you give to civil servant are um I mean the regulation is changing in France for instance because civil
Servant here in France can uh they can demonstrate they can um be come on I don’t know blowers yeah yeah they can be whistleblower yeah yeah so now civil servant are not supposed to be totally neutral they have a voice etc etc but what you you say to Annie who says oh
Come on it’s it’s not easy to to repoliticizing Servant and neutral no uh no no I’m sure that it is not easy I uh I have a discussion about that regularly with my husband which is a civil servant and he say to me that it is quite complicated because it it
Depends of course on the relationship with the political actors we are who are responsible for um Pro decision uh but the they are um I think that maybe it could be not by assuming uh political responsibility for this or that choice for civil servant because they are not able to do
That they are not entitled to do that but uh maybe um to prepare some uh argument and discussion before with political collectors uh trying to make more explicit as Martin said um the choice the choices bit behind um sorry the the interest or the the arbitration between different interest and different values
Behind uh this or that solution uh which is uh for example um uh uh um preferred by the the political actor so to have The uh to try to try if it’s possible to uh to to to ask to political actors to be conscious more conscious and if it’s possible more explicit um in front of their uh electors their constituents um uh to be more conscious and more explicit on the the habituation they they
They they made uh choosing this or or that uh uh solution and this for me uh it means to uh to have um uh um ah it it uh it’s uh it is linked to the capacity of analyzing um each uh option um by trying to uh make uh more visible um
The the the impact the the effect the consequences of uh of uh of solutions so um the the reflection before action and the the materials and the S the food for so um that that are given to political actors by civil servants is uh are very important uh in this process of
Repoliticizing uh public action um and maybe and to to to to finish uh um it could be by using more uh social sciences I don’t want to advocate for my uh for my Parish I don’t know if it’s a good translation in English but uh I
Think that um uh we had uh in France for example a tradition of social sciences uh in the um in the ministers uh and they produced uh their own studies for example for the education National Minister for environment environmental minister they have their own sales uh of research and
It it was a very interesting to uh it was a very interesting uh resources uh for repoliticizing because they they gave um a lot of uh of course um um they gave a very interesting um uh light uh on the effect consequences and of course for example
Evaluation assessment is a a very good level uh to rep politicize at least if it is used as such and not only to say we have uh there was an assessment um so I like you I was too long I like your advocacy for social science but uh sometimes social science
Has the same problem of shrinking I heard yesterday that there is a US state who a university in the US state who has suppressed all the social science departments because the governor or whatever think that social science is part of the problem so we we could have another
Workshop about the shrinking space for social science in our uh research policies and and and and so on so but that’s another topic um uh didn’t say do you think we should uh shift to a another uh we we had the idea to get your own experience because we had many
Experience many cases from Cil uh linking with global warming and and and many cases uh but maybe it would be interesting to get your own cases uh to get uh both your own cases that you have met during your work as public innovators but and so more generally the
The cases that you see around um for instance in France I could mention also maybe more dedicated more in the perimeter of public Innovation the non debate we had all these years about digitalization Administration digitalization uh it became a a mantra a Doctrine from the national state but
There was no debate uh and now we are realizing that 3 million 4 million people five million people are victim of the administration divide because of the uh of the digitalization and and it was seen and and promoted as a progress for for many people so this is typically the
Thing that where there is no no debate it’s seen as not probably it’s naturalization it’s it’s there is no question about it uh and we see some labs in France here in France who have has a advocacy for change changing it so sometimes laps from the ground and
Notably the laps from britan has get an audience from the national state level uh re recognizing that maybe digitalization was a failure was was was was a was not a good policy and it’s because of labs uh from the ground that that the national state is is realizing that
Maybe he was wrong um so that that’s an interesting uh situation where Labs can have a role because they defend because they use social sciences because they bring evaluation and at a certain point the national state could not say there was no problem um so yeah
We we got some uh some very interesting uh uh example here but maybe we can spend five six seven minutes on the on the on the slide uh for each of you to mention a few example or Insight that that that you have in mind
Okay so you got the link to the to the slide and you you can uh feel it or or jump into to our conversation or um drop something into the chat too yeah sh maybe we can start commenting in our interesting uh quote there for instance
I like the idea that’s in in many of our organization there are some subject that are not seen as interesting uh so uh there there are some topic that don’t dis deserve a debate because they are seen as trivial Basics or or non not worth talking about that’s
Interesting do you want is there someone want that want to comment each comment is comments or others comment yeah This is making me think about like there’s a real um there’s a real sort of energy of exhaustion about like oh we can’t talk about everything because we never get anything done there’s a there’s a there’s a there’s a culture in maybe there there’s a culture Dimension here too that’s like
It’s I mean like anything it’s partly true and also part and also a construction but um no to be a Common Thread in there some of these comments about yeah no quick action would be uh worse than a good decision making process I was also thinking about and
Maybe this uh can lead us to the next uh prompt but I was just reflecting on a phenomenon that in Italy uh actually we we having we had actually just before the latter uh government of um technical government uh just one after the other um this made me think of as as Citizens
Being uh getting used to technicality to uh neutral or no alternative ways of um guiding a a public action of making political choices so I was thinking about also the need to talk about to to talk about uh the phenomenon of the politicization itself because uh otherwise we we’re not aware actually of
Having this risk and to uh be already like um emerged in a depoliticized context and political scenario so in in this Italian case it’s like uh we we got used to the idea of the absence of a debate of a discussion of um among options because actually uh
For a long time political decisions were made and as just neutral as or uh actually integrating many of the elements that Cecil presented so uh neutral choices or neutral or the absence of Alternatives so um I think also um a case itself is to uh to think about the a
Context uh which is depoliticized no matter uh saure yeah sometimes it feel like I don’t know if if we can add this to the five mechanism that still described but there is also this a problem of um decreasing quality uh um growing turnover uh all things doing with the
The the lack of quality in terms of management um um being rigorous and and so on so in in the mood now in in French government is very U is quite bad um there is a lack of attractivity there is a there was an event today here in Paris
At high level on the sense of civil of public policies the sense of Public Services what is it for I mean we we we don’t know anymore what is it for what what is the the meaning of this uh so where where when you are at this level
Of interrogation it’s been that the U the mood is not uh is not at uh debating taking the time to uh um to uh diversify thinking diversify option and and so there is also the the the way and the the the atmosphere that that we have in our public organization now uh those
Days um any other comment that we want to comment before we shift to the next uh uh the next session will be more um solution oriented in a way so but probably we need to explore other comments to to before we shift any I think we should shift stuff on
Because we’re running a bit short on time okay so let’s shift um so now the idea and and we need your help Cil also uh is to uh and and that’s connected to the question someone asked is how could the of change be helpful to repoliticization what kind of strategy
Practice skills Etc what what what could help Um uh so again maybe we can spend a few minutes uh uh writing a few uh a few inside and ideas thank you wow that’s cool many ideas tips does someone want to uh to comment and to uh and to tell a bit about his uh suggestion Judit or lily or
I can chime in um I was thinking about yeah just how this plays out I guess on the person like on the uh personal and interpersonal level and um yeah was even just hearing about this um happening yesterday and was thinking about the questions that I would have asked um a
Person who was using a depoliticized kind of like naturalized justification for something and just saying this is how it’s going to be um and there’s no room for um changes at this time and just kind of continuing to ask why or because who decided that um and so yeah
I was thinking about how how the depolitization also um it it’s it like removes our accountability or makes us more distant from our accountability um as people and organizations so how can we reorient to that that’s interesting because maybe as you I see it as a personal new
Radar for having a better conscience of it and and being more it’s like a muscle that we we need to develop uh and I think the five the five mechanism that Cil described help us to be more cons of that and being more aware of okay I know
What it is this is naturalization this is I think we already know all this notion but we if we can use it more systematically integrate in in our tools criteria Etc and and as I mentioned at least not being part of the depolitization process because sometime
In we we we don’t realize that uh by accepting some partnership or or or some project uh or in accepting it in a certain way uh we we are part of the problem of uh that’s why I I like the idea that any any other ideas that you want to
Comment I I wanted to add just what I what I was uh thinking and writing about that is maybe so obvious and trivial uh to certain extent but actually we are talking about um public Innovation public sector Innovation and um maybe you have different experience but I I I
Quite see that um we are reading or um hearing about public Innovation uh again as a quite technical or natural process so we have to remind ourselves and the outer world that actually the process itself of public Innovation cannot be uh taken as granted as as technical as one
Uh Direction just one option so maybe when we are trying to um describe an expected transformation an expected Improvement we have to uh explicit uh and also debate about our vision of uh why this is an improvement to us and to our uh Community there there are so many ideas I
I I can’t them no but I’m I’m happy that you got so many ideas but because honestly um um that that’s not so easy to link theory of change and and and the political perspective that we try to have but I think I think it’s a a new
Dimension that that theory of change can get into uh being more politically engaged more politically aware uh more more connected to the real situation that we get now in the uh in the public debate and I’m sure there are there it might be a new dimension for for theory of change uh it’s
Six um is there anyone want to I mean we will make sure that we will uh collect very precisely all your all your comment IDs because all our gems that we want toh take care of uh but if any of you want to uh uh want to describe his his
ID or suggestion or Insight please Cecil do you want to uh do you have a comment or yes very few very general sorry but I find it’s very interesting to read you uh on the slide um I perhaps three three points very briefly the first St is that as as we uh
As we say uh once again it’s not just about the individual and of course uh for the repoli uh it’s exactly like uh the depolitization we to avoid the ideas that we are were responsible for uh a global very Global situation so depolitization depolitization um is
Um U has been observed in very numerous Western democracies uh it has been connected to uh very deep changes for example the the ab the abstention the gr the growing abstention the the lack of the the decreasing of the PO politics party uh and it is a a very big
Transformation of our society so it is not so easy to fight get against the politization and as as Georgia say said for for example in certain context uh it is deeply um um yes it is it is now be became uh quite the the common way of uh uh making public policy in
Certain National context so it was first U observation the second one is the discouragement is an important Force towards depoliticization and it maybe important to be able to fight this this discouragement um and to be able to the believe in the capacity of actors to to to to change to
To to to do some let the the the people um and the um you know the oh sorry uh not the participants but um the beneficiaries of the the the public policy uh to let them believe that if they take part um they they could be uh
Um a part of the solution and they have it exists home for maneuver and the last Point uh sorry it was about I I I thought about the a lot of uh with search made concerning the anology maybe you know ignorance uh i s to Robert proor which
Is a who is an historian who have um who study tobacco politics and he show how um the knowledge is a very powerful Tool uh to we politicize uh and it show how uh depolitization uh is um old um is is linked to ignorance it produces ignorance but ignorance
Produces also depolitization because we forgot uh that there was there were other Solutions and we don’t have the the tools uh to uh to show that our public policy produces different uh effects uh depending on the public uh and maybe um to to share knowledge and
To um and to produce knowledge could be a good Tool uh to be politi to rep politicize even locally sorry it was long no no thank you C uh maybe a last joke before we shift and that L say present the the next session um um some
People have found a solution to to improve public debate here in Europe they want to invite Taylor Swift uh to to promote to promote European election and and get people to vote for the next election because they have seen the result of the fact that torit was was incre inreasing the number
Of people voting uh and and they want to do the same in Europe and they want to invite her as a guest star in Europe uh so uh maybe we need Stars uh to to develop public debate too no please in say do you want to maybe we
Can end up now for now uh again we will take care of all these uh great insight and and and and we will write for sure papers and and and blogs about that uh but do you want to uh introduce the next what’s next yes I’ll do that just
Briefly thank Stefan so um so as I said earlier uh our next cycle we’re we’re finishing this cycle there may be a we may come back to you with something about closing the theories of change conversation at some point um but to be determined but for now we’ll finish this
Cycle and um plan to begin our next one on February the 20th uh here in Vancouver um February the 21st early in the morning for the folks in Australia and New Zealand this cycle is co-hosted by Lily Raphael from City of Vancouver who was here just in um here today and
Penny Hagen uh who’s with the lab in Auckland and it will focus on the connecting the inner and outer work of transformation in the public sector really focusing on practices competency skills place-based um ways of working and how the the small really connects with the large in systems transformation
Work um so that will be the focus of that cycle again starting on February 20th there’s a link on the last slide that will take you to a blog post um with some more information and where you can find the registration links and a few other links on that last
Slide also um to find your way into the website into the recordings for these sessions and I think that’s everything for today Pavan did I forget anything or Stefan and through thank you to team for hosting this and designing this and thank you so much Cecil for
Joining us today that was a really interesting um conversation we’ll see you next time thank you Mercy Cil Bravo thank thank you