On this week’s show, I was super excited to be joined by Stuart Fry & Lloyd Cremer.
Stuart is the CEO, and Lloyd is the CRO, of Halian, a recruitment and IT services business headquartered in the UK with multiple offices all over the UK, Europe, and the Middle East.
Lloyd joined me from Riyadh in Saudi Arabia & Stuart was in Dubai.
They recently completed an MBO where they bought the original founders out, and they’re on a journey now for the next four years to create an incredible wealth creation exercise for a number of their teams across the world.
Stuart joined almost 15 years ago and has seen the business grow in both recruitment and IT services, and Lloyd has come through a traditional recruitment route, from top biller to director over 15 years.
Growing a recruitment firm as well as an IT services firm
Why they are focusing their business in the ME
We debunk some myths about the ME, about living there and about getting paid in the ME
The MBO and what their exit plan looks like
Why they are NOT entering the US market, unlike the majority of other UK recruitment firms
If you’re looking to add different services on top of just recruitment, or if you’re looking to join an organisation that’s growing towards a wealth creation activity, then you should be listening to this show.
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If you’re a recruiter who’d love to listen and learn from some of the greatest recruitment owners and leaders, then you need to listen to the RAG Podcast!
We’re having real conversations with recruitment entrepreneurs about their businesses right now and their plans to navigate market changes.
Episodes are released every Wednesday at 12pm
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Episode Sponsor: RecruitHub
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Episode Sponsor: Untapped
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Welcome to another episode of the rag podcast and for those of you who don’t know the rag stands for recruitment agency growth since early 2019 I’ve been interviewing the most successful and Innovative recruitment owners to learn how they Rose to the top of their game
In season 7 I’m going to be having raw authentic and insightful conversations with agency owners entrepreneurs leaders people across the industry and I want to be learning about their Ambitions what’s happening beyond the scenes in their agencies today and their plans to navigate difficult market conditions I’ll be bringing you the latest and
Greatest recruitment stories every single week on Wednesdays at noon across multiple platforms stay tuned hello and welcome back to another episode of the rag podcast on this week’s show I’m super excited to be joined by Stuart fry the CEO and Lloyd creamer the C Chief Revenue officer of a
Business called halan Helen a recruitment business but also an IT services organization that managed the it support and projects for Global organizations with 1100 employees worldwide headquartered in the UK and originally pure recruitment firm they then grew internationally across Europe and they’ve got offices in Europe and
The Middle East um and in this episode I interviewed Stewart who was one of the first employees and Lloyd’s only been there a few years but these guys recently performed an MBO and bought the original Founders out with the support of T20 capital um one of the leading
Staffing uh Venture Capital firms um they went through a process to buy the original Founders out in order to create a uh an event of wealth creation in the future for themselves and other leadership members and and employees um so in this episode we talk about growing a business that includes Recruitment and
IT services Prof creating an MBO and what it took to not only find a partner Capital Partner but also the process to get that done we talk about the Middle East as a region to go and work in recruitment gets a lot of negative stigma and press but actually according
To these guys who on the call Stuart was in Dubai and and Lloyd was in Riyad in Saudi Arabia these guys have lived in this region for a long time and have amazing things to say about not only recruitment um but also the client-based the culture and everything in between so
If you’re a recruitment business looking to grow internationally looking to perform any kind of event or MBO um then 100% you should be listening to this episode and like I said I always say reach out to these guys they they’re full of information and full of value so
I hope you enjoyed the episode without further Ado Stuart Lloyd welcome to the rag podcast great thank for the invite no problems you uh you know we were just previously talking off air about the the temperatures in our environments I’m in a in a nice sunny Sheffield which is
Hammering it down at 11 degrees Lloyd you’re in uh Riad in Saudi Arabia and um and Stuarts in in Dubai I believe so yeah we’re not we’re not I don’t know who’s more glamorous out the three of us but it’s probably me it’s probably me um
Guys thanks so much for taking the time out of your you know busy lifestyle busy afternoons over in the Middle East um we’ve been talking about this for a long time when did was it about 14 months ago W it lloy when we first spoke about
Having you guys on the show yeah I think so um good friend of mine kindly connected um asked Dan Co to I think you know well recently sou medic search and yeah we were going through a a pretty significant period of time in the history of hen at that point so I think
We agreed let’s pick things up next year and crazily 14 months has gone past so yeah it’s good to finally have the chat we’re here we’re here Stuart CEO I’ll ask you the open question of do the kind of Bird’s eyee view piece for people who don’t know hien who are hen numbers
Headcount location services and then we’ll go back and tell more of the story yeah great great I I I get used to doing this pitch with clients so I can reel it off with no problems so hen was formed back in 1996 by two guys from uh deck
Digital um started initially as a contract recruitment company out of reding um and then the the business evolved and grew quite considerably in Europe and the reason being was the that haren’s biggest client was Sun Microsystems and uh Sun asked Haren to follow them into all these all these
Different territories um I joined hian in 2008 uh and in 2009 set up our Middle East operation which which really was the the transformative part of the business um yeah we came out here and now we’ve got a a massive setup all the way across across the Middle East um our
Business is really really grown because we’re I hate saying it we’re not a traditional recruitment company because every every recruitment agency out there says Ah Yeah we’re unique in one way or another um because we really care about our people that’s why that’s the in the industry we we I
Actually we care like we we don’t spray and pray we care but uh I believe you got a little bit more of a real USB than that one absolutely so we we’ve got a business we we rebranded it uh two years ago to Smart services but effectively
What we do is we run large scale uh operational manag services for our customers so um with one of the large European Banks we run all their it operations as a fixed price so we have slas kpis penalties Service delivery managers so it’s similar to what you get
In a in a systems integrator um we do the same in the Middle East we work with um people at Oracle Health where we have 100 people running uh all the um Healthcare applications in hospitals we we have another 200 people with um uh orange where we run smart classrooms in
The Middle East so we have service desk Asset Management Field Services running all these smart classrooms and these are not you know five people or 10 people they’re 50 100 200 people on three five seven 13e uh contracts so for us we’ve got probably 45% of our our group
Revenues come from Smart services so when we’re looking at our business we can we can see a future view of the business years ahead so we know great we’ve got 10 10 smart services that we’re running and we’ve got whatever 10 million pounds worth of GP book next
Year already because of those services so when we’re looking at our investments where we’re going to go next what countries we’re going to go to what sales people we going to hire what technologies we’re going to invest into we’re doing on a a really strong solid foundation rather than hoping that perm
Doesn’t drop off or expecting that we’ll do you know 30 you know net new contract growth a month so it gives us the ability to really really have that Future Vision of our of our business well that I mean obviously my background recruiting in the business change and transformation space and
Technology markets you know it’s like you say PWC ey Cog cogn is it cognizant there’s yeah Cap Gemini there’s all these different organizations that that do that and then I found there’s been a lot of recruitment firms that say they do it but they don’t really do it like
They s talk about the scheme of work projects and they might hire one program director and put him on a some kind of you know retainer and try and fire him out and he can work out a time and materials project but it’s it’s not been done very well across the industry how
Long is the you know how long has the business been in been in that part of the market and and and was it a or organic growth or was it like a buy you know the acquired or merge or something with an existing organization yeah it was an interesting
Interesting scenario so um we ran a service alongside Sun Microsystems in in in Luxembourg and when Oracle bought Sun they looked at that contract and said it’s not really what we do doesn’t tie into software or licenses or any of those things so you can have it so we we
All of a sudden got another 25 people and we’re running a service because Oracle didn’t want it so then what we did is we learned learned the hard way very very quickly how to run a service and how you need Service delivery management you can’t use free you know
Just Freelancers you got to have a a strong employed Workforce behind you and after we did that we we got referred into other businesses especially in Luxembourg uh where we run this project and then that expanded you know over and beyond that and I think one of the really interesting things with our
Businesses we’ve got I guess about 1100 people out on site as billable bable resources and over 80% of those are full-time employees 20% are Freelancers so what we tend to do is we tend to look at customers where we can uh either resell resources or where we where we
See long-term engagements with them and then we hire people and then contract them out to our customers and when those projects are coming to an end we’ll then move them on to another assignment and another assignment and another assignment that way we can we get the the benefit because you know you have
Lower cost in hiring FTS rather than Freelancers um your attrition rates reduce because people tend to stay longer in full-time employment than they do as Freelancers but we can also invest in the people so if we’ve got software engineers and there’s a new technology and we say actually we see an
Opportunity there we can invest in those software Engineers to upskill them that we can then sell them you know get them engaged and sell them onto different projects in the future was that classic contract perm debate isn’t it like if you think about why obviously contractors can demand more money in
Most most markets but not only that they get that flexibility of of different projects they get to work in different environments you know they in five years they can assume so many skills whereas if you sat in one organization just looking at the same technology stack
It’s probably not as exciting for a lot of people um going back to so Lloyd what tell us what your role in the business is and then we’re going to go I want to go back into the past a little bit after that with both of you and find out your
Kind of Journeys to today so but Lloyd what what do you do in the business sure my my job title is Chief Revenue officer um which is one that you don’t actually find in many recruitment companies and it’s partly linked to um we you could say Americanized some of our job job
Titles um and that’s partly because because of all the stuff that St talked about yeah with actually competing against businesses that are often um headquartered in the US essentially I run our sales and recruitment team outside of the smart Services business so our revenues correct from wrong
Stuart 65 70% recruitment still um and the rest is smart services so it’s still huge part of our business um and I lead that function so all your 360 recruiters business developers um ta Consultants or or resources as some call them um come under my remit and I’ve got a sales
Leadership team across each of the different countries um who then in some countries have a sales leadership team within their teams you know like Dubai for example we’ve got 55 60 people in that team so um there’s leadership structure within that um I’ve been a recruiter for 15 years so I’m I’m
Through and through Lear it the hard way in london.net per London recruitment F yeah classic absolutely so what how many people are in the recruitment side of the business uh um the thing is there’s a lot of overlap overlap so across all of our countries it’s
About 130 140 but um for example our resourcing function so our TA function is a shared service so they’ll deliver candidates into both the recruitment side of our business and the smart Services side of our business yeah um but yeah it’s pretty substantial and how many what are the different
Locations we’ got 12 offices now um so Middle East we have Dubai Abu Dhabi Qatar and Saudi Arabia where I am today yeah um and then across Europe we have the UK Greece Luxenberg Belgium France three across Germany so we’re stutgart Hamburg and Berlin um I think I missed
Any strip Serbia Serbia sorry Outsource development team in Serbia yeah wow that’s a lot of that’s a hell of a lot of places to get to so let’s go back so Stuart you’ve been with the business for is it about just under 15 years yeah yeah yeah so what was it like tell
Me paint the picture of of what theit what did you walk into what was your role and what did the business look like then well I started I started out selling advertising when I left College because I didn’t get a degree and I wanted to go and make money and then um
My dad turned around and and saw an ADT for a recruitment consultant and this is back in the days where you had Rolodex and you used to fax the client of CV so proper proper old school and it and it sounded really good so I went I went and
Uh had the interview got the job did about six months there did quite a few deals and um and decided that I was going to move to a company close to where I lived so I joined a company in Brighton where I’m from and uh and worked for this guy very inspirational
Guy um you know racing car driver bodybuilder recruiter kind of all all all those things and I worked for him for a long time and um and then I decided I was going to going to go out and start on my own it was quite shortly after he told me
That um I wasn’t a very good sales person despite me uh desp despite me feeling more than anyone in the company and and it was at the same time asked for a pay Rise um so yeah started my own company uh ended up with about 10 Consultants working for me and the
Company I worked for and hi and were were big competitors so the two owners of har and kept knocking on my door saying let’s go and do something and in the end I said great so I became a shareholder of hen merg my business into
Them how long was it how how long had your business been running at that point about 18 months two years I had about 60 contractors um so it’s really I was five minutes walk from my house I was it was really a live style business yeah it and
It was it was good fun but the opportunity to join hen and become a shareholder was was too much so I I joined ran the UK for a year and then and then came and set up the Middle East and then I think just after we spoke 14
Months ago um we completed a management buyout of the business so um I worked with the the team at T20 Capital so Tristan Ramson Ian Monroe and Jamie Webb to buy out the other shareholders um which was completed uh this time last year um and then quite
Quickly after that we we acquired one of their assets which is a company called staff group um who who are present across Germany Belgium um France and I’ve spent the last both Founders both of their Founders have been on the show in the past yeah yeah the St stor been
Told yeah and I spent the last six months spending half my time in Germany in Luxembourg and half my time in the Middle East uh integrating the business over which which has been great but um I’ve got uh I’ve got my baby number four
So I’ve got a a son who’s W uh next week so it’s been quite tough as well spending 50% of my time away but uh you know now we’ve got got the business integrated rule on1 CRM system you know we’ve got the new websites going live
And and all those kind of things we’ve got the German team now starting to sell smart services so it’s been been well worth it so why why when you’ve got 60 contractors in 18 months and you building a team why do you then go and merge that in with someone else when
Because that is some I’d imagine you’re going to be spitting out some decent profit yeah like you say five minutes from home did you have did you have any didn’t have any kids at that point I imagine had three at that point yeah I I got I got married quite
Young um had three kids let my lesson and got divorced and then married a lady much younger than me who uh who looks after me now so um I had three I had three kids but the opportunity with hen was I always felt that there’s there’s much more SC
With strength behind you and um I’ve always been a much more of a Salesman than than anything else I’ve learned the other CEO skills over over a nice long period of time um and I felt that when I was running my own business there’s there’d be a limit to my scale you know
The mindset of being five minutes from your house yeah your wife phones you and says do you want to come home for dinner early and you’re like yeah great you know kids come in the office at lunch time and play around you think great as a lifestyle business this ticks every
Box but in terms of exiting with a significant kind of wealth event I I I couldn’t have done that on my own I couldn’t have done that on my own so when the opportunity to work with these guys came along they had probably 350 400
Contractors um I got a 30% share of the business so I became a significant shareholder straight away uh so it was uh it was definitely the right move for me at the time um and I’ve learned you know more in those 15 years than I would have done 15 years doing it
Myself I I can imagine that completely what I’ll get on to you in a minute Lo what what was it about that significant wealth event why why was that so important to you I think um I’ve come from nothing you know people people say have come from nothing is such a broad
Terminology but you have people who have come from Council States who get Christmas presents to you know to me my parents Republicans um you know I never asked them for anything I saw how hard that they worked and my my mom and dad would be up at 7 in the morning work through
Till 3:00 sleep for two hours go back to the pub and work until midnight and then do that cycle again so I I lived above uh the pub for a number of years and you know my my relationship my parents for a long time was you leaning out the window
Asking if I could come down stairs and eat dinner in the restaurant because they worked their fingers to the Bone and they did it for um you know me and my brother and I you as soon as I could start to really understand what money was worth I
Said there’s no way I’m ever going to be in the same situation as my parents where you know work has to you know has to feed everything um I wanted to be in the position where my work fed my lifestyle and I enjoyed my lifestyle and
I could be a a father and a husband and hopefully unless Lloyd throws me under under the bus a good colleague and a a decent human being that I could go and do things to to help people and um enjoy life but weren’t you on the track to
That if You’ got 60 contracts in 18 months and you’re five minutes from home you’re on track for being a good husband good dad you got the money that you you ain’t running a pub until midnight like weren’t you on trctor fulfilling that I I think it would never have fulfilled my
Ambitions at the time because I was a at that time I was a you still a fairly young guy and like I said I was really I was a real salesperson so when it came to invoices out and data days and all those kind of things that was all very
Secondary to me and I was always about the next deal and I did actually have a situation with a client that um that cost me about 60,000 where I did a deal based on me being a Salesman rather than me being a CEO I didn’t look into the client I
Didn’t do my due diligence I didn’t do any of those things in the end he stiffed me for about 60,000 liquidated the company and sprung up a new business two months later and uh now I’d spot that a mile off yeah yeah so there’s ambition and there’s also knowing
Yourself at that point that you know you were not the complete founder leadership team on your own you were a really good salesman and actually partnering with alien gave you the the back in financially the big Vision but also the people around you that could cover the
Blind spots and yeah all right that makes that makes a lense and just just to add to that Lloyd said exactly the same to me so when I interviewed Lloyd he said look I want to come here for a few years there’s things I want to learn
There’s things I need to go and develop in myself but my ambition is always I want to go and run my own compy but I know I don’t have all the skill set and the tools to do it now and I’m hoping that coming here I’ll learn the
Rest of the bits I need to to be successful I’m interested in today’s episode to give you a message from our brand new sponsor now this company are called untapped and everyone knows that hwo through this podcast i’ I’ve explained that we we’ve built our team internationally heavily in South Africa
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Show so let’s get on to that so Lloyd you I mean we don’t have to go into the whole detail but you were you were working with salt you know no Elliot Dell console Mark Cohen and the guys you you work some brilliant people and some brilliant businesses why didn’t you
Start your own firm instead of joining a you know a beast like Callan yeah I still asking myself the same question [Laughter] really good yeah exactly yeah because Stuarts kicked me out to re um no I I as you say so worked for some pretty household names in the UK went
Straight into recruitment out of university did the whole grad Academy scheme um gig did I was at St May who you probably know well as well um and then console Mark and gry and Brilliant guys learned tons from them and worked for Ryan Adams who now is the the
Founder of signifier who are also flying the work was in brilliant people um I at that point setting up my own business was not on the radar at all um I was six seven years in I was in London um to be honest in I just in the rat race doing
The hour and a half commute each way every day and and not really exactly knowing where I was going but knowing that I was earning some nice commission checks and enjoying Thursday nights out in London so you know um I was happy to crack on and then um Elliot D knocked on
My door um and through a Mutual contact and said I’m setting up in Dubai um we’ve got a guy to go and Lead it and I’d like you to go out there and join and um initially go out there to set up a technology practice for salt came and
Did that worked closely with Richard Smith who’s a regional director here did um three and a half years there and then that was kind of the point in my career when the thought of potentially going setting something up um yeah was on the radar I then did a year which
I won’t bore you with the details on but I did a year at a business that was effectively setting up a new brand within a business and I felt that that would give me a really good insight into how to go and set something up from the
Ground up without having the risk and also I didn’t have the capital to behind it um coid hit that business and my experience there was not particularly good one and I um knocked on Mr Fry’s door so we’ve got a couple of mutual connections and um I came knocked on his
Door as one of the things that students not going into there is the the historical nature of H and being a very services and contract heavy business meant that at that point in time September 2020 um there was no dedicated permanent recruitment practice at all um there was
The odd smattering of perm deals here and there that kind of came in organically but there was nothing dedicated so I came and knocked on the door and I was like you’ve got this this 13 years or whatever it was at the time 13 years of experience in the Middle
East you’ve got all these contract clients you got this brand trade license people and you’ve got no perm business it’s crazy we can we can do something amazing with this right so um that was where I started out the business I came in to set up perm function um my
Background being 90% perm and then across 21 and 22 we built that up to I think we did 4.5 million USD GP um in our second year so it was it was pretty good I mean obviously that was riding the riding the wave of coid as well it
Was a great it was a great time not pretend but that’s still really phenomenal going into years yeah yeah we we took it from zero people to about I think we did we were about 16 perm heads when we did that 4.5 million and we had some amazing formers some guys who was
Doing six s 800,000 um USD so it was a great journey and then the opportunity came in to step up and lead the sales business across both sides of it so I was very honest with Stuart and said look um I’ll come in I’ll build you home
Business I believe I’ll build you a good business and I’ll leave that business there making profit um and adding fundamentally to the bottom line um and then I’m probably going to go off and set my own thing and we both talked about the fact that we would bolt in
Some kind of wealth creation event so that I’d then have a bit of capital to go and do that um I think we’ll both be very honest that when the when the kind of two and a half year Point came around and um we had done that that we both sat
Down and said right you know what’s next because we were both very honest from the start that that that was what I was going to do and it as it happened the T20 guys were were involved at that point and um the MBO was about to happen and what that essentially did was
Enabled uh Stuart to create a future wealth creation event for me that I was looking for but by staying at hel which for me ticked pretty much every box that I needed it to tick um I also do have a young family I’ve got three and a four
Year old um my my daughter was born literally few months before I joined Helen and I’m really really big on being a present dad um and making sure I’m around and I’m not stupid that going and setting up something from scratch is is you know Blood Sweat tears in 15 hour
Day seven days a week um and by working at hi and I can sit my feet up and do two hours a day and get all time I want the kids with all them offices with all them offices at H and though that is yeah you’d have more time perhaps chain to
Your desk in a in a startup but like Stuart mentioned you can do it f i mean I’m in the the way I’ve built I’m in the garden right I’ve got this is my purpose built office and I can walk in and they’re doing Halloween decorations and
After this I am going to go and spend lunch with my kids right so that’s my choice how I want to run it but you know running a business with that much head count with that many offices surely that’s that’s a big challenge to be present with the you know young family
As little as three and four it’s gone through phases there was a period um back end of last year and early this year where I was in Europe a lot because we were going through the we just finished the MBO and we were bringing the two businesses together and I was
Giving Stuart a fair amount of support um and at the moment I’m spending a fair amount of time in Riad but you know it’s 25 30% of the time to be honest with you it’s less about that and I’m big on quality of time with my cribs rather
Than quantity um and I might go away for a week but then when I come back and I am in Dubai I have time in the morning to go and do the school run and then I can be back in time to do bath and bedtime time and it’s those moments and
Those periods of time that are actually more important um than having loads of quantity of time that you don’t you don’t really value what’s it like having a young family in Dubai compared to say back home what would you how how does that how is it different what you can do
The activities etc for people that don’t know for me it’s incredible um it’s statistically one of the safest countries in the world um which is is you know becomes a very important factor when you have kids um quality of schooling incredible it’s so Multicultural my kids have got in their
Classroom children from pretty much every continent in the world that speak multiple languages from multiple backgrounds you know next week they’ll be celebrating duali last week they were celebrating something else and a couple of weeks later they’ll be celebrating Christmas so people my kids will grow up
With um a completely rounded view of the world um and and I just love that I think that’s brilliant um I also think that it’s a fantastic lifestyle you know it takes me 15 minutes to drive to work 15 minutes to drive back I’ve got a park
For the kids five minute walk I’ve got their schools a five minute drive and I’ve got pretty much every imunity I could possibly want um and I’m lucky that you know I’m able to provide them with all the things in their lives that that they need and you know were
Probably not quite as easy to come come by when I was young so for me it’s um it’s the best place in the world to bring them up and as much as I absolutely you know I’m very proud to be from the UK and it’s still it’s still
Home um I have absolutely no intention of taking the back I like that final line and where before we get into the story where do you think your where do your desire come from so your you know wealth creation is something you’ve mentioned being a Founder you know we all fall into
Recruitment we’re all got similar stories why what where’s this desire coming from you to create something as impressive as what you’re trying to do yeah like like most people you know Stuart said it earlier and said it said it very well that I don’t really come from huge amount um and everyone has
That different version of that story but um I’m the oldest of six so I’ve got a lot of younger brothers and sisters to look after um we you know my mom was single mom for most of my life so I was kind of de facto dad at home a lot of
The time um and really have taken the responsibility from a fairly young age to also help financially support the family um still do that today so for me the driver comes from that family’s everything you know my family when I was growing up but now my own family and my
Kids and being a good role model for them um but that’s where it comes from I was starting to earn money at 13 so the second that I was allowed to do a paper round as it was back then I was I was there six o’clock in the morning um
Delivering papers and then at 15 I was cleaning windows for 25 quid a day and then at 17 I pass from driving driving test and was doing six days a week cleaning windows and four days a week delivering pizzas and so it’s just I I just had that um desire in internally to
Financially support myself and then financially support others and um provide better things and that’s that’s stuck with me obviously the problem is that you never I always say this to people if somebody said to me 15 years ago in 15 years you’ll be you know living in Dubai you’ll have two children
You’ll have you know a nice house and a nice car on the driveway and all that kind of stuff and a nice watch on your wrist like go be over the moon with that I’m happy that’s it I’m done and now I’m here I’m like no no what’s what’s next
And what’s next and what’s next um and the the the fire just keeps getting bigger and bigger and keeps burning so that’s why now that’s why I’m in Riad today and because I know that for the future of hien’s growth and my personal um plans the success of the business in
Saudi Arabia is massive and it will be a huge success which is why I’m doing the six o’clock in the morning Sunday flights to get out to rad and grow our business here yeah yeah all makes sense we’ll we’ll get on to this one final question because I think it’s important
Based on the fact that we’ve all got young children we I mean I’m not from money either right my mom was worked at spa and my stepdad drove a truck so we were just normal workingclass people what I did a paper round for spa my mom nearly chopped her finger off
There I’ve got real hor horrific memories of when she was cutting sandwich meat and nearly took her finger off um but uh that’s a different topic but what how do we raise kids you know being business owners leaders living in Dubai living in Saudi Arabia living in
Wherever living in in in a completely different environment with different Financial um access than we GRE up how do we raise kids with that hunger how do we not make sure that our kids are are going to be complete sponges and just live off us three and you know have you
Know Daddy will pay for it like that’s my big I’ll be honest that’s probably my biggest fear now that I’ve had a baby a month ago I’m like she is not going to grow up and become a complete wet lettuce but how is the question I don’t
Know the answer but have you guys got any ideas I’ll I’ll I’ll jump in and start with because I’m I’m fortunate I’ve got older and younger kids so my oldest is 19 um she uh she did her a levels didn’t want to go to university working as a a
Barid in a green grer and doing all that stuff so um T20 kindly jumped in and gave her a marketing apprenticeship so she’s now a marketing Apprentice for the recruitment Co um and she’s now working hard really hard to to earn her you know apprenticeship money and she’s getting
The value of life and and what it means to make money um and to be to be successful my my middle daughter is 17 she’s done three or four work experiences here um in our office and she said she wants to get into into Recruitment and I’ve
Said great finish your A Levels she’s going to get she predicted to get distinctions in in everything I said finish a levels he’s going to start at, 000 a month and you’re going to pay rent and you’re going to pay your car tax and you’re going to pay your petrol and
You’re going to pay all those things because you need to learn the value of money and you’re going to start as a resourcer and if after a year you can stick it out you learn Commission on the deals but if you can stick it out and be
Successful then I’ll give you to Lloyd and Lloyd can train you to be a recruitment consultant and if you can be successful there work for me work for whoever you want I don’t mind but go go and be successful so I make sure all my all my girls they all work for their
Money they don’t get given anything you know they all all work for their money and I think you know the one of the important things is your your children are going to see you working and they’re going to see the success that you have created by what you have done because
Your success is all down to what you have done and I think as long as as long as they see that and as long as you’re not saying you know when they’re 12 years old sold there’s £100 a month pocket money and they’re thinking great I don’t do anything there’s a car
There’s this this this this this then they’ll start to they’ll start to learn and the soon as you can get them into work so they can see what you do you you get them in your in your garden while you’re recording your podcast and where you do you know training recruiters to
Be more successful recruiters they’ll say ah dad works hard mom works hard you know those things and and then you instill those kind of right like skills in them yeah yeah I fully agree I mean obviously mine are not mine not at that age yet but um that’s exactly the Mantra
That I’ll be following I think what it’s easy to forget Sean is that you know you said your your child’s a month old right the first few years of their lives their brains are just sponges and they are they are absorbing absolutely everything that they see so it was funny the other
Week my my wife always complains that because it’s it’s like a constant candy shop in Dubai you go into every mall and there’s 10 toy shops with every toy you can possibly imagine and um my son had seen something in a in a shop window and
Said um mommy mama want that toy and and my wife said no not today Noah and and he turned around and said to her because money doesn’t grow on trees and my wife was like where have you picked that up from but it just goes to show that he had absorbed what she
Had said to her around money doesn’t grow on trees and we at three and four years old my kids they have a star chart on the fridge and they have to fill their star chart every week to get their pocket money they they get pocket money
Already at 3: or 4 because if they want to go and buy a toy at the weekend they can if they’ve got enough of their pocket money and in order to get their pocket money they have to keep their room tidy they have to help Daddy do the
Dishwasher um and they have to make sure that they all their dinner and it it’s never too early in my opinion it’s never too early to start those things I also think it’s really important to give them a lens into your life of work you know I
I travel a lot well as much as Stuart and you know I don’t I don’t hide that from the kids you know I I tell the kids Daddy’s going away next week Daddy has to go away for work and you know that Daddy has to go to work because Daddy
Has to make enough money to buy the things you have and and put the food on the table and have a nice house so even though they’re three and four they know all of those things and they understand it and I and I agree that the with as
With Stuarts Stuart’s children that when mine get to teen years hopefully they’ll remember even though they’ve touched wood got nice things um Dad worked hard for it and I remember that from an early age yeah well like it I think we uh think I mean I’ve got two step kids that
Are nine and 10 and and so I’ve I’ve been living with them for two years and the change in them in the their lifestyle has completely changed right completely they go Dubai they go what did he say last we went for the last two years we’ve been to Dubai the USA and
Turkey as in in like a four-month period and one of the like as we driving back from his football training he went sure and I said what he goes next year I said what can we go somewhere different than Dubai USA and turkey and I was like oh
Really I say oh really um and then we had a bit of fun about it but they’re definitely I’m I’m working on that we’ve got like we don’t have Star Charts but we have the pocket money stuff and all that it’s all in place but yeah it’s uh
Take him to Bogner that’ll bring it back down to yeah yeah definitely what so let’s go into the business then so if we look at this vision of wealth creation can you tell me what that is like can you give us as openly as possible what
Are you guys trying to create and I don’t care who answers the question but what is this North Star and then we can talk about how we how have you got to where you are and how you going to get there yeah I think um it’s it’s always
Difficult right when you when you say what is your what’s your North Star what’s your end goal because it all depends on on what happens in the market and you know the success you have and your hunger and desire to do it you know I’m
46 right and and I still wake up every morning at 5:00 and I’m excited to go to to work and I’m excited to you know help people develop and when you we do um deal songs so we’ve got TVs around all our offices anytime someone does a deal
You know and you you hear this deal song playing everyone’s standing up clapping and I get excited by that excited by people’s people’s success so for me I don’t think there’s a kind of ENG go at the moment I think when I when I feel
Like I can’t add enough or I wake up at six instead of 5:00 and go you know I’m not I’m not up for it that’s the point that I think I’ll probably look at look at um you know making a making a move but what we’ve done and I’ve always kind
Of had this instilled in me since I started working is all the time you work for someone you’re an employee and any good salesperson any good recruiter at some stage in their life will say I’ve earned 25% Commission on this deal I could earn 100
So why don’t I make the move myself and that’s why there’s so many one two three man bands out there in in that recruitment space what we’ve done is we’ve taken a slice of the equity and said right this is going to be spread out amongst a group of people that we
Think can make a difference in the business so across the whole the whole business there maybe 18 or so people and and if we exit where we think we’re going to exit in the future that will range from half a million pounds to three and a half million pounds now that gives people
That the the kind of starting money if they if they do that say great I’ve now got I’ve der risked myself so I’ve got a million pounds I’ve der risked myself I’m going to put half of that away in a property I’m gonna buy two properties
Invest or do something like that but now I’ve got enough money to go and start up on my own and that’s what this will hopefully allow people to to do because we have become uh I think Lloyd and I joke about all the time I think we’re
One of the best training grounds for recruitment companies I think in the Middle East we’ve got five five people out there or five competitors of ours who um who are all started by people who who work for us here yeah and I I I I take that as flattery you if if people
Can come here be successful go and start their own business then I’ll take that all day long and what what’s the rough time frame obviously no one’s holding you to this but like what when is that wealth creation roughly planned when do you want to do it I think in the next
Four years in the next four years I think yeah as said yeah we’ve got got private Equity we’ve got T20 at some point they’ll want to get a return on their investment um private Equity is usually a fiveyear cycle we’re we’re one year into five years in four years time
They may turn around and say great let’s do another five and let’s inject some money in or do some more Acquisitions or any of those kind of things or or they may say great we’ve had a fantastic Journey we’ve grown the business really well let’s all um right off into the into the
Sunset and what what was talk us through the Journey then when did this MBO become an idea so you were one of three uh shareholders was that right yeah but the other two shareholders are um you fair bit older than me and um we we went through a process to exit the
Business um prior to coid before anyone knew about coid and we got to the point actually it was in the February that I flew over to the UK and met the the buyer we were in due diligence I met the buyer everything was great I was going
To stay on as CEO um and I had a a sweet deal to stay on um and then on the plane back I started to hear about coid a couple of people were wearing masks and then uh and then bang it hit and and their recruitment business was in education Hospitality
Construction all the thing uh Aviation all the things that just got absolutely battered um so he had to pull out the deal and at that point I said that said to my that my two business partners who were our CEO at the time and our our CFO
I said look I think we need to we need to look at doing something something different so we we threw around some ideas um I spoke to to you different people out there the banks and all those kind of things and in the end um I I
Went to uh Ian Monroe from T20 so I’ve known Ian for for quite a while and uh and he’s always always had an interest in in the business and you know he was he was delighted and and the T20 team moved really really quickly jumped to the
Opportunity um and then we we got the the other shareholders the other shareholders out and so what was going on in the business prior though what were the symptoms I suppose that led to the the decision that actually you’d be staying they’d be going like tell me
What was the what was the world like in the business before the original deal was on the table that fell apart yeah I think um hopefully our old CEO won’t listen to this and if you do lean then I’ll apologize but uh no I you know you
Get to the point that it in a in a business I got to the point that I was saying ambition is not there with the other guys yeah you know they’re happy with 5% growth every year yeah I I wasn’t I wanted further growth further investment further development um you
Know keep making that money plow it back into the business how can we how can we take everything to the next level you said turn teams off didn’t you my other the laptop in the corner is ringing so if you can hear that I’m going to
Apologize now and I’ll uh I’ll tell who fo me off when I when I finish but um the ambition wasn’t there by them and and they were they were becoming just more Switched Off from the business and and I didn’t want that I wanted to carry on driving things and growing things and
That’s why yeah we we kind of looked at it we looked at potentially me buying the Middle East only and splitting that out from the rest of the group um but we it was too difficult to unpick so so we went back to to looking at a kind of
Full exit from those two and was Lloyd was that already on the cards when you initially reached out to Stuart so there that the t2 so the fallen through buyout was February 2020 I joined September 2020 so that had all happened been and gone I knew nothing about it when I
Joined um and then and then the the completed NBO T20 was last year so by that point um Stuart brought me into the fold but just to mirror what what Stuart said really when I came in externally um I came in through Stuart because we knew each other but I met
With um Levan and Dave the CEO and CFO um as well um fantastic guys got on with them brilliantly well but it was very very evident that the drive and the energy behind the future of the business was coming from was coming from Stuart and that was all coming from the Middle
East um because that was where Stuart was based and when the business was set up here there was there was no Middle East business and then over the very long period of time that the Helens being the Middle East it it caught up to and then surpassed the European business
And up until we acquired staff group the Middle East was significantly larger from pretty much every metric than the European business so it was very very clear that that was where the the fuel was coming from um to grow the business and I’m a I’ve said so many times to
Stuart I’m a I’m a growth person um salt was all about growing something from the ground up even back at console it was about growing a team from the ground up um and it was clear that with with what hien was going to do through through Stuart’s Vision was was
Significant growth and that was what got me excited and and now the Saudi piece is all about significant growth so I think um the the the previous Founders had built a fantastically solid business you know we talk about smart services but it is one of the if not the most
Robust businesses that I’ve seen if perms down smart Services is up if smart Services is down perms up and you’ve got our standard contract business in the middle that’s a Bedrock it’s just incredibly solid business um but it there there was this ambition to kind of
Stick rocket fuel in it and and take it to the next level and were the two others were they based in the UK or Europe um yeah Levan Levan was based in the UK and then moved out here so he was out here for for maybe six or seven
Years and Dave was based in our our head office at the time which was in St Albans right and now is that as as the head office change to the Middle East now and is it well no we still keep our our HQ as St Albans but um you know
Dubai is our Middle East headquarters s orans is our European headquarters um but s orans for us is really a a back office we we you know we have a small amount of UK business um but nothing nothing sizable at all and I think you
When you look at when you look at where you invest your money if you got if you got $10,000 and you say I want to hire a salesperson where am I going to put them Luxembourg Germany or Dubai at the moment will all net you much higher
Returns than London or anywhere in the UK what’s that based on uh well I think it’s margins you know are our average margins in um in Europe on Perm uh a 30% Middle East there 18 19% um you know our our smart service business um you know we’re netting 45%
Margin so you compare that to some of the UK businesses where people are working at five six seven eight% margin it’s just you just can’t scale you can’t scale at that kind of level unless you’re one of the the really big players and for us we’ve always kind of
Diversified elsewhere so when we look at our investments now we’d have to go do a UK acquisition to to really kick something off our trusted partner recruit Hub helps new Founders launch their own recruitment businesses in the UK US and the UAE the community is growing rapidly with over 70 Founders on
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Sluk awareness okay let’s get back to the show obviously recently I interviewed you know you you guys listen to that episode with DSP who the fan of life science people X Spencer Ogden and he made a really bold statement that said he doesn’t have any interest in the Middle
East and you don’t get paid you don’t get your money you know he was really quite dismissive which is you know his opinion that’s fine so you guys are quite the opposite you know you’re putting a lot of your effort into the Middle East you both live in the Middle
East you know how would you honestly describe your experience of transacting business what’s different about the way in which people work and and is that whole quest to get your money out of clients especially in Saudi is that as difficult as people say I think David’s
Um view on on getting paid is not not without basis right there is no doubt that that getting paid in certain um parts of of the world is harder than others and this is probably one of the harder ones but if you’re propably properly ingrained in the local market
And have relationships to a certain point then then it’s far more controllable than I think a lot of people think um but the way of doing business is definitely different it is incredibly relationship driven um it is incredibly based on um I’d almost use the word pride of of kind of local
Culture and the local the way that things are done locally um more so probably in Saudi Arabia than than in the UAE that people love the fact that we are a local business we have Mr employees and and Saudi national employees we are properly ingrained in the culture of the Middle East we
Celebrate the culture of the Middle East um which I think people really value when you work with them it’s a very very face-to-face culture which is why I’m on a plane every couple of weeks um because you know teams calls and phone calls um don’t cut it here you’ve got to sit down
Have a coffee and um wh to the eyes conversations and that leads into helping you with deta issues right because somebody is much less like to not pay you when you’ve had a coffee with them the week before and and had had a good chat about things that are
Non work related um I would say that the deta days issue and the getting paid issue in Saudi Arabia was quite significant problem but in the last couple of years in line with Saudi Arabia’s Vision 2030 and the appetite to bring more Global businesses to the country it’s improved massively
Because if you’re going to major major problem isn’t it yeah it’s going to be a huge you’re not going to attract massive Global businesses to come here if nobody thinks they can get paid um so I I I personally don’t see it as a Well it
Can’t be a huge problem you wouldn’t we wouldn’t get a highly reputable private Equity Firm like T20 coming and and fund our business if we weren’t getting paid by our clients right they look at this stuff obviously in pretty pretty big detail yeah and you know our our de
Today are Sub sub 50 days which is which is good because we work with some of the big big systems integrators and consultancies that have 90-day payment terms yeah so you we we have that that right mix of business I think to add to what Lloyd said is the the the UA
Government specifically recognized that bad debt was a problem here and they set up a a like a tribunal Court in DFC so anytime that you have a bad debt we’ve had it where we’ve done perm deals client doesn’t want to pay you submit your contract the emails and the
Paperwork and a judge makes a a ruling and we I think we’ve been there three times and every time it’s been ruled in our favor and the other party has 14 days to pay otherwise they have their their trade license suspended so it is is you is really good really good
Compies like UAE though is that in Saudi as well that’s that’s in the UAE but I wouldn’t be surprised if Saudi follows suit with something um you know similar in the future what’s the relationship like between those regions and like are they friendly and you know does it feel
Very similar in terms of the way they operate yeah very very strong ties um there was a there was a couple of years where there was a a little bit of Fallout with Qatar and um some of the rest of GCC which you probably know about but generally very very tight and
There is a feeling across the GCC that it’s a very um you know they’re very proud Arabic people um with and very proud of what this region is becoming um but I would also say that despite the fact they all geographically very close and they all follow very similar political systems and very
Similar um religious beliefs there is there is a tangible difference between each country you know like there there are tangible differences between Saudi Arabia UAE Qatar Bahrain Q8 which are the the main ones that we spend time in you know which one you’re in pretty quickly yeah wow and I think it’s the
Same with the cities you go to Riad you go to Jedi you go to deam you go tobook you go to even the USU you go to fera is wildly different than Abu Dhabi Abu Dhabi is very different than Dubai and so is really yeah it’s really different across all those all those
Cities when it comes to the weekdays obviously Dubai recently changed is it it was like what two years ago they brought in the the Friday Saturday Saturday Sunday weekend as opposed to the Friday Saturday but the the other regions haven’t right so how does your business work when you’ve got some
People working on a Sunday and they’re off on a Friday how how you we just get everyone to work six days seven it just get on seven why not I think post don’t give him ideas Sean don’t give him ideas postco that’s got to be an easier problem because a
Lot of people do it’s so fluid now I think pre-co that would have been a genuine nightmare logistically having people working on a Friday and other people working on a Sunday but how do you guys how does that affect your business in anywh what have you had to
What what do you have to put in place to make sure it runs smoothly well we’ve we’ve kind of looked at that well we looked at it when when we had those problems because there there was a point that I was doing I was working seven days a week we I we were
Doing work in Africa and Europe we’re doing work in Saudi and we were doing work in UAE so every day was a working day I think when you’ve got salespeople that are earning commission they’re sitting by the pool on a Sunday and they get an interview requesting saudy
They’re going to jum jump on it and arrange the interview so sales people is quite easy with uh back office and support staff it becomes becomes more difficult if you’re doing Credit Control you may have four days to do it instead of five in one of the regions it becomes
It becomes more difficult so what we’ve what we’ve done especially in Saudi is we’ve invested in our own um boots on the ground team so if you look at most organizations recruitment organizations that work in Saudi they’re based in another country and they sell into Saudi they pay their withholding tax and
That’s it done there’s a a handful of businesses that are investing in the country and we’re one of them and that’s given us the benefit that we’ve got a team there in those right time zones so the the need for those people to do that extra day in the week reduces down to
Really you know Lloyd and my level and some of the sales guys that are selling in right yeah and I think that you know particularly sh mentioned kind of his and my level we are very very um cognizant of each other’s family commitments and personal situations but and it goes both ways
This week’s a perfect example I lost Sunday um my which is my normal family day with the kids because I I flew here but I land uh back in the UAE on Friday at about about one o’clock in the afternoon and I’m going to go home and
Pick the kids up from school yeah and I’ll be online if student needs me or someone needs me but I’m going to see the kids the afternoon and and that that’s a conversation that doesn’t need to happen that that’s just an you know an Unwritten agreement that we have like
I know that in the evenings when Stuart gets home from work he typically has his time with George um with with the baby I typically won’t call unless it’s really urgent or I’ll pop a message and say if you’re free give me a call so you just
Have to kind of learn ways of working to to make sure that you understand people’s sacred time if you know what I mean um and and and and it does work I mean it wasn’t that long ago that the Middle East weekend was well us weekend was was Thursday Friday um so the
Working week was even harder it was there only three crossover days and businesses Thursday Friday what when was it Thursday Friday Stuart can probably answer that question um it’s probably just before your time when the weekend was still Thursday Friday so it’s probably 16 17
And then it moved to yeah and then it moved Friday Saturday yeah and now it’s uh now it’s easy for all of us I know because the Brun whenever I went to Dubai the brunch was on a Friday it was always like yeah now it’s on Saturday
Saturday actually if you want to go to a brunch you can go pretty much any day of the week you get Day brunches evening brunches yeah yeah it’s crazy there was an interesting situation that we had to navigate though Sean which is probably something that other recruitment companies haven’t really en encountered
Apart from those in the Middle East which the the challenge with changing the weekends was predominantly a religious challenge because Friday is the Islamic religious Day so a lot of um well Muslims will have an extended prayer time on a Friday yeah so the challenge was um creating a work day
When there’s a significant proportion of the day that has a religious commitment attached to it so businesses had to navigate that and most um government well government sector businesses in the UAE simply clock off half day on a Friday um so that they can allow that to
Happen and what we’ve done is um created a mechanism whereby people can either effectively work a four and a half day week and have a full day off on a Friday um or they have an extended if if they have religious um commitments then they have an extended Break um to enable them
To to enable them to facilitate that so you have to be agile and work work your business around it and accept that we’re no longer in the world of it’s it’s 8:30 till 5:30 you get an hour for lunch and 15 minute coffee break in the morning
And afternoon and that’s that you know it’s it’s it’s you guys space though is it as a as an in as a business how are you approaching the return to work you know f working what’s the policy yeah we’ve got I did I did a talk at gex on this so
We were we had a stand at gex recently which is a massive Tech conference and uh I did a a panel interview about um future work and I think it is is a a really really delicate subject and I think it what what business need to do
Is they need to look at attracting the workforce back rather than forcing them back if you force people back they’re not used to it they don’t want to do it and you end up having a an unhappy Workforce if you attract people back then people are happy doing and by
Attracting them back it’s not a case of saying come back to work and you get some extra money it’s about creating that culture that that makes people want to be around their colleagues and want to work and that’s one thing that Lloyd and um Jack McCoy our sales VP have done
Exceptionally well is to to create that culture where people want to be here like with the deal songs um we do we have a spinning wheel for Lucky dips for RTA Consultants because traditionally RTA Consultants a lot of them from the subcontinent so um you know we do things
Like a Skydive or a flight home or have a spinning wheel for cash where they can earn couple of hundred pounds and it gets everyone here and everyone around it and when we’re doing the spinning wheel a lot of time the salesperson will say I’ll double it I’ll double what you
Get and it and that’s part of the culture that’s what gets people back in it and excited to be here and that’s that that’s I think that’s one of the keys with our business other AG groupement companies out here you know they say are you come to work two days a
Week and do this this this and that’s great that’s great but collaboration is where success is born and our teams collaborate really well because they’re here and they’re working together but we offer for that flexibility that if someone’s on their target and they’re doing well and they want to work from
Home couple days a week great go and do it but we are reward People based on their what they’re delivering so if you know if you’ve got a lot of seniors you know 30 years old top billers that are having young families and want to work from home but they’re the people
Training the they’re the ones on the phone that the younger gen are listening to How do you how do you solve that because that’s an industrywide problem right it is yeah it is look I think we we have a formal policy around it in terms of you the amount you can get work
From home dependent upon where your performance sits and everyone gets some degree of working from home we’re also all adults um and we understand that there’s going to be times where greater or lower degree of flexibility is needed but for me it’s all about transparency at the outset you know when when we
Interview people to come and join our business we’re really clear that we are a largely from The Office business yes some people do have one or two days a week working from home but primarily we’re are in the office so we ask people to try their best to set their life up
In such a way that they’re able to facilitate that because it works just because you know it works well for us I know I think I’m writing say Sean that you you guys after Co went to full remote and yeah it works works works is sticking to
Something that’s what works I think it’s the businesses that chop and change all the time are the ones who’ve struggled like you know we we’ve been very clear from day one that we we liked it we were like yeah when we have no aspiration to
Be a 100 heads and grow that way so we’re we we’ve built a business that works around it but I think whatever the model as long as you believe in it and you enforce it and you roll it and you’re consistent with it like everything in life you’ll be successful
Um in terms of the you final questions because we we are actually you know at the hour mark But UAE look I’m fascinated by the place I’ve been I think 14 times I’ll be there in the new year um I’m going to live there one day
That’s my intention but I’ve got two the step kids need to get to at least 18 before I can move and say to their dad their biological father but we’re going and they might be coming with us I’m not going to do that until then but UAE is
On my agenda um what would you say to recruiters listening from other parts of the world that are thinking you know this could be a one hans’s an exciting organization but also I like the sound of the UAE whether it be Dubai or or one of the other regions I guess what what
Would you what advice or what would you want to leave as a lasting bit of information I’ll I’ll I’ll aim that you lloy First Look I think come and see it you’ve been here 14 years um there is a lot of myth and rumor and misinformation
Out there about this part of the world and unless you come and see it with your own two eyes and feel it with your own two hands you you’ll never really know um so I highly recommend that people come and see what it’s all about um
However I also say to everybody that we um recruit particularly when we recruit you know relatively young success successful um sales people from the UK particularly those that are don’t have kids and and stuff like that remember that in order to facilitate the amazing lifestyle that the UAE can offer you
With the brunches and the the 365 days a year of sunshine and all that stuff work’s got to be going well and a lot of people forget that um and think it’s just an extended holiday and think that we’re sitting on the beach every day or
We’re at a brunch every day and that’s really not the case I always have this on running thing whenever I visit at the UK everyone says why have you not got a tan I’m like well I spend I’m in the office like I’m I’m I’m not just sitting
On the beach or sitting around and Po and working it’s a phenomenal place to build a career but you do have to apply yourself like anywhere else in the world and you do have to crack on get your head down and and work work hard if you do the rewards are absolutely enormous
The speed of tra trajectory in my opinion is faster than anywhere um the pace of progressing through your career because the competition is is far lower um it’s far less saturated and your access to decision makers is far more tangible um so you can progress at massive Pace um and obviously reap the
Massive tax-free um lifestyle rewards of that um but you do have to be prepared to come here as a career move and not just for a long holiday which is what which is what a lot of people try and do yeah you anything to add to that yeah
We’ve had a success recently because um you know in our hiring plans I I speak to I speak to so many recruiters and and a lot of them say the bit that concerns them is going into a brand new market and selling from scratch so we’ve we’ve got a A Team here
We’ve hired about eight people recently and they do they do their previous markets we’ve just hired a guy who sells into Germany so he’s come here he’s still selling into Germany got three people that sell into France and Belgium who have just joined they still sell into France and Belgium the only
Difference is they don’t pay tax they might have a different you know working pattern because they have to start a little bit later and those things but it allows people to to have that flexibility to to work here and taxfree still work some of the markets they worked on while they’re then
Growing you know their future business and one of the most important things about being out here is especially with har is you get a view like that that’s the P J that’s the yeah that’s the B Arab yeah it’s pretty good isn’t it it’s pretty good and it’s 91 degrees and sunny so
Like I’d want to be here if I wasn’t it’s you know what I mean and and I can I can totally agree with the the whole being there you’ve got to feel it you got to go and and you know the amount have people who say to me but you
Can’t drink and I’m like what do you mean you can’t drink or you can’t hold hands and all they come out with all these random comments ments that are just but I I’ve seen a change since I first went there about 11 years ago it is different but I mean I I actually
Love I love the place um final question is you’re not really mentioned the us and that seems to be where everyone in recruitment focuses nowadays you know it’s the golden chalice go out there a bit like you know consol and Ryan Adams and all these people you know have gone
And nailed the US and Edison smart are mainly in the US um you guys haven’t talked about the US is that on the agenda is it part of the plan this you know four-year plan or are you are you the opposite of DSP and focusing in in
In you know in another Direction yeah uh you you summed up there that there’s so many businesses going out to the US to go and try and crack the US and the market there is absolutely massive undeniably the market in Saudi is untapped is massively attractive to to a
Workforce because it’s becoming you know it’s got more Western C culture coming in there there’s less barriers to entry you get to earn your money taxfree so a lot of people are now saying well if I go to Saudi for two years yet I can’t drink when I’m in
Saudi but I can get a flight over to Dubai or the drive over to barin and have a beer at the weekend and it cost me1 pounds for a flight saudi’s just massively untapped and they are they’re crying out for good talents they’re crying out for for good Tech resources
Good digital resources and I’m sure you know Lloyd you know knows more than me when you go when you go and see a client in Saudi and they’re a Saudi national they’re proud that you have come to their country to do business with them and they’re proud that you’ve walked
Into their office and they want to show you I’ve had tours around businesses going from the mail room up to the CEO’s office because they’re proud that you’re there and they appreciate that youve come to their country to to do do business that is massively untapped and
The growth in Saudi Arabia with projects like neom and everything that that piff are doing that that just won’t stop that won’t stop the Saudi pro league the football’s attracting so much more isn’t it about all the players flooding there the the attention attracting attracting players but it’s not attracting fans I
Think uh one of the Jordan Henson’s team had like 700 700 people game thought that was funny leaving the Premier League to go play for 700 but but again it’s more publicity for the region there’s more more more Revenue going there so is the US not on the agenda is
That the answer not not on the agenda in the next you 36 months and and I think the other thing Sean is um people tend to follow the leader in recruitment right everyone goes oh let’s at the moment everyone’s coming to Dubai um and we’re like yeah cool come but you know
Everybody going to the us we’ve we’ve obviously looked at it and talked about it multiple times but we know what we’re good at and we know what we’re excel in and we know what um being first movers means because we were first movers when we did this properly in the uee many
Years ago and it’s very good for our business um also in honesty just the logistics of time zones and travel and distance you know our mothership is in Dubai and running a US business from Dubai which is where all of our business runs from is very hard it’s 12-hour time
Difference I’m going to be in um I’m going to Vegas in in two weeks for Formula 1 and I’ve already said to my team it’s 12 hours time difference forget it you know just won’t be we just won’t be able to communicate really so running a business out there I remember
When I worked at Sal and obviously they got offices all over the world and uh in Dubai we would communicate with everything from Australia all the way across to the UK but the US was really really hard you know to set up a call with a sales director there was a
Nightmare and it would be 10:00 at night and 9:00 in the morning his time or whatever so I think just also logistically it’s really challenging and there’s no reason why we need to force ourselves to do it just because that’s what doing yeah I mean personally I I
Love one of the things about Dubai is I love waking up getting a few hours to myself in the Sun and gym or whatever and then and then can log on so I always do a week’s work when I go there um whereas in the US I was in LA last year
For a conference and I went and met the life science people and I met Mark Cohen and I was up at I mean I was wide awake at like 3:00 a.m. and trying to it was just weird it was trying to work you I was trying to keep keep on the UK time
Zon it’s was like 3 4:00 a.m. I was up and trying to work as many hours as I could and then by like 1 12 1:00 La time everyone’s finished no one’s even replying to my whatsapps because they’re in bed and I’m just floating around this
City on my own like some absolute loser um so yeah t well next time you’re uh next time you’re out here on a work well not out here but in Dubai on a working week we’ll have to make sure we uh come I’m going to be there yeah I’m coming
I’m definitely coming on the I don’t know if I’m flying just before or just after New Year so I’ll be the first two weeks of January I’ll be out there I’d love to come and see you guys um and look I’d love to get you back on again
In you know 12 to 18 months time I think there’s a real benefit and power of bringing people back on the show and listening to what they’ve actually like the guys at Edison you know I got them at one point and then you know they’ve now opened up in Dubai and it’s really
Good to hear the development especially if people are learning from organizations like you that are way ahead of of where they are today if anyone does want to reach out and ask questions about just advice or they want to work you know they want to talk about
Working for you guys is it is a LinkedIn in mail or message okay because that’s where I’m going to tag you guys yeah yeah 100% 100% yeah yeah absolutely I’ll be honest I’m nowhere near as on top of my LinkedIn inboxes my emails but my emails pretty simple lloyd. Creer
Alan.com so also more than happy to fill inbox well we need to get your LinkedIn sorted out that’s what I’m talking to your team about yes you are I look forward to it nice little touch and guys thanks so much it’s been a pleasure um get back to your miserable lifestyles in
That miserable weather and I’ll uh I’ll be looking forward to Halloween this evening yeah which is going to be sub 10 degrees raining pitch black with two kids dragging me around in the rain trying to get sweets from the neighbors I mean how jealous are you that’s all
I’m saying yeah terribly thank you as always for listening to Today’s Show I truly hope that you got value from it honestly it’s the only reason I take time every week to ensure that my audience you guys future and existing recruitment owners you’re learning from each other to make this industry that I
Love so much stronger and today’s episode is brought to you by my business hawel I’m the CEO and founder and we’re on a mission to help brand recruitment agencies and their people better I want to help people have the tools to stand out in the most competitive markets in
The world we’re currently working with over 350 Recruitment anties and 5,000 of their Consultants right now helping them to build their personal Brands to consistently win more business attract talent and just become that go-to recruiter in the market now we do have a huge coaching program but a lot of
People don’t know we also manage the brands of a lot of Founders and we can do the Rebrand of that company organizational piece as well so if your recruitment agency either needs help to look and sound exactly how you want it to or your leadership and consultant
Level need to get out there and drive more traffic back to that website to the business and start using LinkedIn to generate more Revenue then you should definitely be reaching out to us if that sounds of Interest please do visit www.hom media.com or drop me Sean a personal message on LinkedIn I love
Hearing from rag listeners I would love to talk to you uh look forward to it so I’ll see you again next week with another episode catch you soon