Is it an offence if you start to move your vehicle before a pedestrian has completely crossed the road? In this video I ask all the people who should know, none of whom gave me a clear answer.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/2400/regulation/25/made
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48 Comments
How did you time that intro so perfectly 😂
me im stopping until the crossing is clear. sadly whilst watching many youtube vids cyclists especially the clips around london show cyclists going through red lights and pedestrians as they cross plus over zebra crossings without a care in he world.
I was taught by my professional driving instructor, not to move until the pedestrian has fully crossed and is on the pavement. If there is a central reservation, then it counts as two crossings.
This is what I was taught, was told was expected on the driving test and is exactly what I still do in everyday driving.
Moving off before the ped has crossed can cause them anxiety, make them feel they are being rushed or cause them to run.
Bikeys are even worse of course, they just swerve round the ped, either in-front or behind, what ever is easier for them.
I was unfortunately in Croydon last night, a fat copper was trying to stop illegal bikeys, it was comical to see not one obeying his instruction to stop, just carving round him. He resorted to shouting at them to get lights.
All of them were on dark coloured bikes, wearing dark coloured clothing, mainly diversity types delivering junk food to fat people.
Back when I passed my test I was always told that the pedestrian had to fully clear the crossing, so that's what I do. If the elderly person (in your scenario) has gone passed and had a dog would you move?
I'll stick to staying put.
@Ash show some of your students on their test driving through a zebra crossing whilst a ped is still on it.
See how many pass!
Pah I've been overtaken while stopped at crossings like this with people walking out into the road on front of me. The roads are a grim place to be sometimes.
I let them all the way across
Listening to the 4th clip at 1:43 it sounds like the woman is deaf and if that is the case it would show why she is angry because she’s more vulnerable with things moving around her
Hahahaaaa, you all should see how it's done in Italy. It doesn't matter if the crossing is clearly marked, 9 out of 10 drivers won't stop for you. You need to wait for a gap in traffic and then confidently step out into the road. Even then, no one will wait for you to reach the other side, many drivers will even swerve around you if there's enough space. Unless, of course, the driver is a man and the pedestrian is an attractive lady.
So the moral of the story
The police still don't know the law😂
I always wait till they're out of the way of my lane
Maybe 2/3rds of the way across
Then drive on
I think it's clear enough. If you have an incident with a pedestrian on a crossing, you're the one who will never have a leg to stand on: at least in a legal sense.
The criminal law could come in to effect if you cause them to fear for their safety while crossing – "Affray is the use or threat of violence that would cause a reasonable person to fear for their safety".
Remember, you don't need to pass any sight, hearing or psychiatric tests to walk on a public right of way. You're even allowed to change your mind while crossing the road.
Ashley, I know for a fact that my local test centre would fail any candidate who start to move while any pedestrian is still on a crossing. I feel although very low there is still a risk any pedestrian could double back, also if you do go it could prompt oncoming traffic to proceed. I personally would wait unless there is an island in the middle.
If it's a light controlled crossing, you have to wait, if a pedestrian is on the crossing you have to wait, if another car is waiting you cannot overtake them, and have to wait
all of this is law
If a pedestrian is waiting you should wait, if traffic are queueing across a crossing you should wait …
Everything says you have to, or should wait … So assume that waiting is the default and potentially breaking the law for a few seconds is not worth it
Once in 20 years when a kid ran on the zebra then turned around and legged it back
I was still stationary so no harm done
My impression is that it is technically illegal to move onto the crossing while it's still occupied by pedestrians.
However i say "technically" because of you give them plenty of space by passing behind them, I can't see any cop taking action, nor the CPS, because of the rule that they don't prosecute when that's not in the public interest.
Whether they are right to make that call is another matter, but that's my impression of today's road traffic policing
I think the law could be more clear
Id always been under the impression that was the reason for the crossing having zigzags down the middle line, once they have passed the middle line if your lane is clear you can go. Im fairly sure my HGV or PCV Driving instructor told me that.
When talking about a stationary car, I don't think many pedestrians would have an issue with the car starting to move once they've cleared three-quarters of the crossing. But if that was how it was officially taught, I think a bunch of drivers approaching the crossing (non-stationary) would take the absolute piss. Imagine being three-quarters through a zebra crossing and a BMW blasts through behind you at 40mph – no thanks.
9:28 not much but in some cases it would be better for flow and not increase risk any
I think as long as you do so safely and are prepared to give that precedence IF they should turn around (so, at an appropriate speed where you don't have to break harshly if that happens), it should be fine; allowing best flow for everyone and protecting the more vulnerable, as you rightly keep preaching
Interesting. I also watched the separate video of a DVSA person answering the question at the ADI conference. (Many thanks to the viewer who transcribed the unclear sound track. Not an easy job, but invaluable!)
I was taught by my ADI back in the 1970s to wait until the pedestrian(s) have fully cleared the crossing before moving off. It was explained to me:
1. The pedestrian might reverse direction.
2. As long as the pedestrian is anywhere on the crossing then he/she has precedence.
So that's what I do.
However, I liked the DVSA spokesperson's approach, to make it about risk and flow. In some cases it is better for flow and lower risk to move off once the pedestrian has cleared your part of the crossing.
I have also seen a situation in Belfast where a never ending flow of pedestrians effectively trapped an entire line of cars into waiting at a zebra crossing for ever. After some thought, I concluded that, if I was the driver of the first car in that situation, I would probably wait until every pedestrian I had first seen had crossed and then start to creep forward. At that point my car would have intruded on the crossing so I would have precedence. Provided the pedestrians recognised that and stopped so I could clear the zebra crossing, all would be well. However if one pedestrian got stubborn I'd probably have had to wait. Thankfully, I've never had to face that situation to put that approach to the test!
Im not a mind reader, judging what random people on a zebra crossing may or may not do isn't worth the risk. I would rather wait those few extra seconds till they are fully clear of the crossing before proceeding. Better safe than sorry.
One thing that I think warrants some consideration here is that other drivers may take cues from your actions.
It's not really an issue when a crossing spans only a single lane of traffic. But when a crossing spans two or more lanes of traffic, then drivers approaching from behind you may take your movement as an indication that the crossing is clear.
In many cases this shouldn't be an issue, however if the crossing is positioned in such a way that your vehicle occludes the view of it and/or the approaching driver is not taking due care & attention, then your forward movement in this circumstance could contribute to a collision.
Now, it bears saying both that a) we are talking about fairly small probabilities here and b) you would obviously not be at fault for such a collision (legally at least).
However, you remaining stationary sends a very clear signal to approaching drivers that the crossing is not clear & that they should stop. And since it only takes 10 seconds or so out of your day, it's definitely the right thing to do even if it may not be legally required.
If there's an island in the middle of the crossing you can go when the pedestrian has reached it.
Imo it's like most things, it all comes down to no harm no foul. I'm a firm believer that whilst general rules are important, they shouldn't be enforced so tightly or it makes the world too tense. I personally hate the pursuit of perfect rules. It'll never happen. People should still be free to use their own discretion and common sense to a degree.Â
I can completely see that if it became normalised a hand full of people would go to the extreme and drive millimetres away from people crossing, to the extent they are effectively pushing them to cross faster and making the situation dangerous. So this is what the rules should attempt to protect, but the rules shouldn't punish obvious no harm no fouls.
If I was the officer judging these cases in this video I personally wouldn't be phased except for that one where the woman had a go at him, it was too close, it just lacked basic courtesy and possibly frightened the lady, and so I'd say there was a degree of harm and therefore a foul.
Excellent explanation of the law regarding this, from the Black Belt Barrister
Ridiculous that an ignorant driver doesn't have a few seconds in his life to offer safe passage to other human beings ….selfish beyond belief
I wait until the person is at least 3 steps away from the pavement, just because it helps oncoming cars to recognise the situation from a distance.
You also have additional pedestrians run out to try and cross before the cars start moving again, so it gives more time to do proper observations.
If you're overly concerned with getting moving again, that you can not wait 4 additional seconds, then you obviously aren't doing blindspot checks before moving off.
I had someone almost hit me at a Pelican crossing. Car on closest side had stopped, I walked. Then I hear screeching breaks as a bonnet appears a few steps in front of me.
They went well over the stop line.
It was daytime. Good visibility, dry day.
I didn't look at the driver, just walked around and away from them
I assume a phone was involved.
Those lights are positioned immediately before a narrowing (cars park on both sides of the road), so the person having to emergency stop was already a sign they were going too fast on approach.
I have just driven back from Blackpool. As I was driving through you outskirts of Blackpool a ladies with a toddler dropped a bag, she took the child to the side she was going, left him there and returned while the car in front of me waited for her to complete the salvage operation. A perfect outcome, just a shame I didn't have a cam. I thirty years of driving I have never seen anything like that but it just shows you how anything can happen and you just have to be ready when it does.
If you're in the left hand lane and drive on when a pedestrian is only half-way across, just because your lane is 'empty', it will mislead people coming up in the right-hand lane who would have encountered halted traffic, but now see moving traffic. It's not just about your car and your 'side' of the crossing, it's also about the other vehicles in the other lane too. They won't easily see a pedestrian in the 'left-hand' half of a crossing if you're in any kind of taller vehicle, so the stationary traffic in the left-hand lane is an important clue that someone is using the crossing for the right-hand lane drivers approaching from behind you.
Agreed. Should wait till peds has at leaf one foot off the crossing . If there is any chance the ped can suddenly turn round. Ok if it’s 3 lanes I’m on with that but standard 2 lane or duel carriageway.
situational is the best way to describe most driving techniques.
I'd say treat it like a pedestrian in the road at any other time: let them clear from your way and allow them a good amount of room when it's time to move on, proceeding with caution.
That being said, my home town doesn't have zebra crossing, so I've got limited experience to draw on.
That pedestrian who got antsy at the cammer unfortunately doesn't get any sympathy from me since she stepped back towards, putting herself in danger, thus in my mind loosing any protection. Yes, motorists and cyclists need to be aware of all people wishing to use the road and keep them safe, but right of way doesn't make you invulnerable, so be sensible if possible. putting yourself in danger to prove a point, is just as likely to make you a statistic, a red mark on the road, and possibly a Darwin award.
1:48 the lady is correct, I’ve just watched barrister black belts video, you have to let the pedestrian reach the other side because they’re within the limits of the pedestrian crossing, I had a feeling that that was the answer but it’s great that he explained it so well.
This is a brilliant one for the pedantics.
The Highway Code emphasises that pedestrians should be able to cross a zebra crossing safely and been given way.
No case is and should ever be judged on technicalities but on actual matters.
So I have seen police drivers set of before people crossed both lanes.
I sometimes don't even stop but slow down way before so the pedestrians cross my half before I even get there but can clearly see my gesture..
How weird! I was just asking myself this exact question this afternoon as I watched somebody cross Zebra crossing right in front of me. I generally let a person cross all the way, but I was aware that I have my car fully in gear, foot on the clutch and ready to go as they're about to hit the curb and was wondering if this was technically too soon to be committing.
Two thoughts:
1. The law (and HC guidance) tells us what to do in order to reduce *risk*. (This aligns with Ashley's core message).
2. Give way != Stop.
I'm with Ashley on this one. Make sure pedestrians can cross safely, and if there's no-one else about to come into the equation then the road is mine once they're completely clear of my side of the road.
Surprisingly, Imwith the DIA on this.
I was taught to wait for them to fully clear the road. I generally do that, or at the very least leave a large gap. My friend was almost ran over by a bus, because he dropped his book (this was between school buildings) when crossing and he took a step back to pick up the book.
I've never seen anyone change their mind when I've been driving myself though
I was taught that the pedestrian has priority and that you wait until they finish crossing. We have a zebra outside a school, and it used to have a lollipop lady who did a great job of controlling the children crossing and managing the traffic queue. Due to council cuts, we no longer have her skills and it chaos in the morning with long traffic queues and frustrated drivers having to break the rules and get accoss when there is a slight gap in the pedestrian flow.
Why is it he? Not they or s/he does it not apply when woman are crossing the road?
I feel you should wait most of the time. I did feel it was an exercise in perdantics when learing – though I did have someone on a lesson drop their keys – sure my instructor had paid actors. That being said I did have several instructors over a ten year period (on off) in 3 different cities. Though the assumtion is where it can be dangerous. I came to a roundabout at the end of my street another car left of me was turning right and I was going ahead so as they got on to the roundabout I proceeded. Though they were actually turing around and it could have ended in tears.
Personally I always wait until pedestrians completely cross a crossing, whether on my bike or in the lorry. I have over the years seen people fall on crossings and think it's better that traffic stays still until they've cleared completely. Thank you for the video Ashley.
I am struggling to see the point of the video. If it viewed by someone that allows people to cross fully it will start them thinking differently. That is surely a bad thing. For the people that go before the pedestrian has fully crossed it just gives them "permission" to carry on doing this and perhaps take even more chances. Unusually for an Ashley video I really do not think that this one improves safety in any way.
Generally I wait until the pedestrian is 3/4 of the way across and then go if nobody else is approaching the crossing or on the crossing. If the road is pretty narrow, id let them cross all the way as its safer for them to clear the crossing and I wouldn't save any time by moving off early.
I was taught many years ago to let people complete their crossing on the zebra.
The few extra seconds of inconvenience for me mean it is safer for the road user most at risk – pedestrians.
Another really interesting video ash. No one really wanted to commit to awnser the question there really did they but as you say it’s all do you with common sense and even though there are rules In place that’s what all aspects of driving are about really.
In Hawaii, once they’re past your car on the other side of the road, you can go.
If we do continue before a crossing is clear of folk, a driver behind might overtake.