E21_Israel and Palestine: Imagining peace? Omer Bartov & Hannes Swoboda

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The episode was recorded on 24 June 2024.

The horrific terror attack of Hamas on October 7th and the subsequent war of Israel against Gaza put the decades old conflict between Israel and Palestine back on the international stage. There is no doubt that the horrendous attack of Hamas against civilians (including the abduction of more than 250 Israelis) is a war crime and a crime against humanity. However, many – including the International Court of Justice (ICJ) – now claim that the way how Israel is waging the war against Gaza might amount to genocide – a term which has been highly politicized. Additionally to the ICJ the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court is seeking arrest warrants against the Hamas leadership and against the Prime Minister and Defence Minister of Israel. While the huge trauma of the holocaust will always be part of Jewish identity including the state of Israels identity, Palestinians are also traumatized with what they call the Nakba in 1948 and subsequent occupation and discrimination. While the Holocaust and the Nakba are not comparable, it shouldn`t deprive us to understand the sense of victimhood of others.
The role of empathy when it comes to the suffering of the other cannot be underestimated but is hardly spoken about. Why is it important to talk about the holocaust, antisemitism, genocide, occupation? What role does international law play today and how are European countries reacting on the events in the Middle East? How can a peace process between Israel and Palestine become a political paradigm again and who could push the Israeli government to end the war in Gaza? What could peace mean for Israel and Palestine? These and other questions have been discussed in our latest episode: Israel and Palestine: Imagining Peace

Guests:
Omer Bartov is an Israeli-American historian. He is the Samuel Pisar Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Brown University, where he has taught since 2000. Bartov is a historian of the Holocaust and is considered one of the world’s leading authorities on genocide. Born in Israel and educated at Tel Aviv University and St. Antony’s College, Oxford, Omer Bartov’s early research concerned the Nazi indoctrination of the Wehrmacht and the crimes it committed in World War II, analyzed in his books, The Eastern Front, 1941-1945, and Hitler’s Army. He then turned to the links between total war and genocide, discussed in his books Murder in Our Midst, Mirrors of Destruction, and Germany’s War and the Holocaust. Bartov’s interest in representation also led to his study, The “Jew” in Cinema, which examines the recycling of antisemitic stereotypes in film. His more recent work has focused on interethnic relations in the borderlands of Eastern Europe. Recent publications include Erased: Vanishing Traces of Jewish Galicia in Present-Day Ukraine (2007), Anatomy of a Genocide: The Life and Death of a Town Called Buczacz (2018), winner of the National Jewish Book Award, and Tales from the Borderlands: Making and Unmaking the Galician Past (2022). His many edited volumes include Shatterzone of Empires: Coexistence and Violence in the German, Habsburg, Russian, and Ottoman Borderlands (2013), Voices on War and Genocide: Three Accounts of the World Wars in a Galician Town (2020), and Israel-Palestine: Lands and Peoples (2021).

Hannes Swoboda is the President of the International Institute for Peace. He started his career in urban politics in Vienna and was elected to the European Parliament in 1996. There, he served as an MEP for eighteen years, including as the Leader of the Social Democratic Group in the Parliament from 2012 until 2014. He was particularly engaged in foreign, enlargement, and neighborhood policies. He is now president of the International Institute for Peace, the Sir Peter Ustinov Institute and the Vienna Institute for Economic Studies.

Moderation:
Stephanie Fenkart, Director of the IIP

[Music] [Music] hello and welcome to our 21st episode of the podcast peace matters it’s an i podcast which deals with International conflicts geopolitics and international relations my name is Stephanie fener I am the director of the iip and I’m going to host two excellent guests today today’s episode has the title Israel and Palestine imagining peace my guests are Omar bov and Han swoda Omar bov is an Israeli historian he’s also a professor of genocide and Holocaust studies at the brown university in the United States and Hames swoda he’s the president of the international institute for peace and a former member of the European Parliament I hope you find this discussion interesting and [Music] revealing all right thank you so much Oma for joining me today um uh Omar you just come also from Israel as far as I understand maybe you can tell us a little bit about how the whole situation now the war in in Gaza the situation in the West Bank but also the government of bi Netanyahu how is it perceived and how is it discussed from from your point of view within Israel at the moment um well Israel right right now is really split up um it’s a country in pain and in shock um feels deeply traumatized but it’s also um torn right in the middle um so for instance there was a a demonstration on Saturday evening uh there were large numbers of people there um they are desperate to have some agreement to free the hostages they are deeply pessimistic that anyone is listening to them and that the Prime Minister has their own interests in mind uh on the other hand you listen to tv channels in his role to various spokespersons of the government and they’re on a totally Planet uh so first of all the country is just deeply divided um um apart from that you know my sense is that um um there is Israel is so deep into its own pain and parts of it also into Vengeance uh for what happened on October 7th that it’s finding it very difficult to think rationally about what’s going on and and to have any um empathy whatsoever uh for the population in Gaza let alone the West Bank which hardly ever even you know is seen or discussed um and and that means that the government can go on doing what it intends to do particularly those more radical elements in Nan’s cabinet thank you hanis uh what you just heard uh he said it’s very polarized Within Israel at the moment I would say maybe the same is also true when it comes to Europe and the European Union countries I mean how would you assess the same question when it comes to the European Union because we remember uh that especially Germany and all those uh countries have been quite supportive of Israel obviously uh for for many also historical reasons but then recently we had a little bit of a shift when it comes for example to the recognition of Palestine by Norway Malta or Spain so the European Union which was very United when it came to the war against Ukraine uh now seems not to be as United as it should be so how would you assess this situation uh at the moment within Europe well I want to take up what Omar said about the different planets we are living on in different planets also outside Israel perhaps not in that kind of antagonism and and quarrel but still which is not new because I remember for many um decades even discussions in in European side there were always different opinions about how strongly we should support Israel depending on independently from the government and the government actions and how strong we should support Palestinians independent from terrorism or inter or whatever but of course with the war in Gaza and and the first of course the the the horrible attack on October 7 uh the split or the the the disparities became even more more obvious um and of course um here leadership is very difficult to to achieve because of this very different uh attitudes and of course the different history because the the the guilt of Germany of Austria and some others is different from you know the the guilt or the non- guilt of France and other countries in addition now comes of course some elements of migration from some of the Arab Northern African countries where especially in France we see arising anti-Semitism nourished also by some elements of uh the migration population so uh in addition to the traditional European U differences and antagonism between very strong pro-israel very strong Pro Palestinian attitudes you have this additional element which makes it even more difficult but uh I think um we need to come out of it and uh maybe some minimum consensus has been found but uh it’s not a very strong consensus let’s let’s be very Frank yeah can I just jump in on one thing um you know there there’s been an analogy made between say European but also American response to Putin’s attack on Ukraine and what happened in Israel with the Hamas and Israel’s response in Gaza and uh this this one fundamental difference that I think is not often spoken about and President Biden himself sort of alluded to the similarity between the two but the main difference is that uh Russia attacked Ukraine absolutely and Ukraine is a democratic country that is fighting for its independence and that Europe also is trying to preserve the arrangement that was made after 1945 which if it collapses then Europe is in a very different place in the case of Israel the Hamas attack of course was a heinous attack um clearly War crime crime against humanity potentially a genocidal act but Israel response to it the Israeli response to it has been absolutely devastating and however we Define it uh the there’s a fair amount of evidence of war crimes of crimes against humanity and Israel is under now investigation for jde uh and so that Ukraine is not in that place Ukraine is not being investigated for that and it’s not committed such crime so that’s that’s a major difference and I think we need to keep that in mind absolutely um I couldn’t agree more obviously Ukraine was attacked uh unprovoked and I would say I mean um since both of you already referred to October 7th which was not only brutal but but a a crime in itself obviously um but since you already mentioned it uh the the word and terminology which is a very difficult and very polarizing and very politicized word uh right now which is genocide and you are an historian and you also have been doing a lot of genocide research do you think that it makes sense in this very very difficult atmosphere for us uh politicians experts Etc to talk about these issues whatever genocide is what are elements of genocide because I often have the feeling that many people are not at all aware about what genocidal elements actually could be there so how would you say how difficult the situation right now is by talking about side um you said the icj um verdict which is now trying to investigate what is happening on there we’re going to wait and see what happens there those are um I would say it’s jurisdiction so that’s another story so how would you assess this very difficult situation talking about genocide look I mean I think there there are two sides to it one is what does international law say and how do you judicate that um via institutions of international law that were put into place initially the icj uh at the end of World War II as part of the creation of the UN largely in response to what happened in World War II including the Holocaust and the ICC the international criminal court which came much much later on but was actually um uh recommended uh by in the genocide convention there was a request to have an international criminal court it took another 40 years for it to uh come into being but now it’s it’s there so there are these institutions and that’s one element the other element is how do we speak about it in a sort of larger public sphere and clearly often people use the term genocide um carelessly they don’t you know they see something terrible happening and they say it must be genocide and my own feeling is that we should stick to the definition of general side as it appears in the genocide convention because that’s the only one that matters under international law now if you ask me what I think is actually happening on the ground um obviously we have difficulties determining that because we don’t have all the facts that’s that’s that’s always the problem as I said before I think there is a fair amount of evidence um that war crimes have been committed uh there’s a fair amount of evidence of crimes against humanity uh meaning extermination of large numbers of uh civilian um um of Civilian population uh genocide calls for two basic elements one is to establish intent and the other is um to show that that intent is being implemented uh the intent is to destroy a particular group as such um now I’ve for a long time sort of been on the Hedge I’ve been saying we are close to that it it appears like this there signs that this may happen because the rhetoric was there uh Israeli politicians generals were speaking in genocidal terms but was it just rhetoric or did it indicate an intent I would say that since the Israeli attack on Rafa a few weeks ago and the move of yet another for another time about million people from one place to another people have been moved around already many times and the utter destruction of so much of Gaza it appears that Israel is engaged in an operation whose goal is to make life in Gaza impossible for the Palestinians living there that is you know in the genocide convention you say destroy that group in whole or in part the part of the Palestinian population living in Gaza is now now completely displaced they have no place to go to universities hospitals Schools mosks public buildings have been systematically destroyed the infrastructure is destroyed there’s no it’s not clear what would ever happen with those people uh and I think that the intent at least among quite a number of people in various places among decision makers in Israel is to to somehow create a situation where they would go away they would be elsewhere whether they would succeed or not that’s another question but right now that seems to be the case hes about what you just heard and since Omar mentioned the role of international law in general and those institutions which were essentially created because of the crimes of the past I mean this is something I think is very important for us to understand now if we look at the European responses uh European or the West responses as we can maybe say also the the the United States for example that we say that the icj it’s wrong what they are doing then there is also obviously the ICC which is another International Court international criminal court who is also investigating not only Israel is obviously also Hamas leaders but what I think is very um difficult to tackle is that we are now attacking especially these institutions which we actually created in order to prevent these things to happen this very important and very very famous notion never again so how do you see the role of international law these days and how it is pursued especially by European Union countries or uh the collective West as we might might say so well I think first of all what we should advise all politicians and all political forces is to be as cautious as Omar has been and to discuss issues very uh differentially were very sophisticated in the sense what he speaking for what speaking against very often we have in a public debate either you are fighting this is genocide or you say no it can’t be because it can’t be that Jews or Israel is committing uh genocide I think that’s totally wrong it’s it’s a it’s a very difficult process and the Judgment should be based on facts uh secondly I think uh what politics is here especially from the Western European side is to promote and enhance the conditions that the courts can act it’s not up to politics to decide I’m very um you know cautious concerning parliamentary debates and decisions about genocide genocide in Armenia or wherever it’s not up to political decisions it’s up to the courts to come to a decision and politics and the polit especially the European Union has to care for the conditions and give the court the possibility to come to a is we saw it with the uh request from South Africa how uh the court can manage it in a way that is not one-sided and tries to balance the different arguments I think that that that is important especially the European Union we have always been fighting for these International courts to act and there has always been very much criticism that some of the courts have only uh you know treated people from Africa leaders from Africa uh so I think it is very important to say we are not supporting only one side effects and on side actions against some African dictorian leaders but everybody unfortunately the US Russia Israel and China and some others are not recognizing the cause that that that’s the issue but as has been argued already that irrespective of the non-recognition by Israel the court has the right to go into the matter and to ask if genocide has been taken or what kind of crimes have been undertaken by both sides I think that is also clear to say nobody is innocent in that War uh and what kind of crimes have been committed is not up to politics but it’s up to the courts to decide Han has also already said um Wars are never innocent um so uh you also mentioned before that there was obviously um the attack of Israel against Gaza has the history of the 7th of October obviously on the other hand there is still also this trauma which the Palestinians are facing since what they called an akba and then you have this very very big and the biggest crime of History which was obviously the Holocaust against Jews and then the creation of Israel by giving them a safe heaven which I think is more than understandable considering what they were facing however if you look at it at the at the role of victimhood my question would be why is it so difficult to have empathy for other victims too so everyone is very very cautious when it comes to this his own victimhood but it’s very difficult to get empathy for others victims and we see it all over the places I mean Armenia just recently didn’t recognize uh for example this reinit um genocide Armenia itself faced a genocide um from the Ottoman Empire at that time so it’s very difficult for victims to recognize others victimhood so how do you think why is that look I mean that that’s a complicated question um so first of all of course uh courts decide things uh but these International institutions of which uh these courts are part are also political institutions and the whole setup is an international setup uh and so decisions being made are made also within a political context and that has to do also with questions of empathy um um for instance Israel has not recognized the Armenian Genocide and that’s a political decision that’s because Israel has wanted now of course things have changed but has always wanted a good relationship with turkey and turkey does not recognize the Armenian Genocide for obvious reasons that it goes back to the Automan Empire um in the case of what is happening right now between um Israel and the Palestinians um I look I mean I would say that following um various um polls have been taken uh among Palestinians in the West Bank and in Gaza and among Israeli citizens and what is curious is that most Israelis still today want the war in Gaza to continue although they don’t like their prime minister and would like to be rid of him um most Palestinians uh celebrated and still feel proud about the Hamas attack on October 7th but most of them would not vote for Hamas and so what first of all it means that there is a kind of split view in both camps uh and and it has to do with how you see yourself as a victim and it has to do with how you perceive your leadership as incompetent if you talk about the two sides and that I think it’s really important to understand uh where do you start and you were alluding to that you cannot start on October 7th October 7th was as I said a a heinous attack but that attack came from Gaza and Gaza had been for a long time for 16 years under an Israeli Siege with life in Gaza being close to unbearable and that is connected to the fact that there had been a 57e occupation of Palestinians by Israel and that goes back to 1948 people don’t know that most of the population of Gaza are either refugees or mostly descendants of refugees from what became the state of Israel many of them coming from Villages that were just on the other side of the fence so there is a long history here and that history means that if you don’t start thinking about that if you want to pinpoint say Okay October 7th was terrible and we have to get back at them you um basically locking yourself into an ongoing cycle of violence where everyone sees the other side as attacking you and yourself as a victim and there’s nothing more empowering to carry out violence than a sense of victimhood and so to my mind what the way we have to think about this is to think out of that cycle of who you know of guilt and to think about it in terms of how do we resolve this the the condition whereby you have today 7 million Jews and 7 million Palestinians living in the Territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea 50/50 and the 7 million Palestinians most of them have either limited rights or no rights the 7 million Jews have mostly more or less Democratic rights the government is kind of hedging on that but generally they have Democratic rights and they’re the bosses in their territory if you don’t change that Paradigm that goes back to 1948 the violence will never end hanis about what you just heard it has been a very very long very difficult conflict I know you have been traveling many times to Israel and Palestine um as well so and uh we didn’t really talk a lot about the peace process recently I would say maybe for roughly the last 20 years there was not a real peace process ongoing in actually trying to come to a political solution because I think what most people do understand that there might not be a military solution to the long-term conflict what do you think like who could be like one of the powers who could actually push I don’t know Israel or Palestine because the situation is still quite asymmetric when it comes also to International I would say reputation or recognition or sitting on tables it’s a very asymmetric uh position who could push for a process to be initiated as difficult and as as far away as it might look right now first of of all just mention me let me mention a very brief experience I had when I was once visiting Gaza and all of a sudden we were traveling uh a blockade was uh done by the Israel army uh and for hours was stopped it was Ramadan it was evening the people wanted to go home and and have their their meal together with the family and the people the Palestinians didn’t move at all the the uh authorities said we could move as Europeans and we said no we stay here so we stayed for 3 4 hours in in our bus and we spoke with the people and it was so peaceful and I said always Israel can be so happy that the Palestinians are so peaceful and accepting occupation and all their concrete and uh measures undertaken by the by the military it was true and wrong because on the other hand this kind of uh peacefulness was uh collecting hatred uh underneath under ground and it spread with Hamas of course being the perpetrator so this is the situation I only can confirm what I said from an outside experience now who could do it I think there’s no one who could do it but of course the us could and if Biden would be reelected hopefully he could develop together with some very you know people who have some fantasy and some creativity together of course with Saudi Arabia I don’t like the the regime in Saudi Arabia but for the peace situation the peaceful uh development is would be very important and all the neighboring countries including some European countries or the European Union I have to confess that Israel is not very happy about involving the European Union in order to start a process it is not you know you can’t get peace you know you negotiate and you sign peace that’s it it is a process where you have to promote statehood of the Palestinians in some way now you have the debate about one state or two State solution for me some hybrid form perhaps is possible to say of course you have to have a Palestinian Authority with a strong influence uh uh separate from Israel but on the other hand you have to have some common institution from uh water supply and management to a uh Common Court for human rights to for respecting the human rights I think it must be the International Community I cannot see anything else the problem is that Israel was founded by decision of the UN but Israel is not accepting the UN as a as a partner in this development but it must be because this one promise of 1947 to to found two states Israel and the Palestinian state is still unfulfilled on one side so I think the UN has to play a role or the International Community for as the acceptance in Israel still the US in spite of some differences and of course with a different government than the net government the US has to play a dominant role a leading role involving other countries as well countries who have some sympathy for Israel more than for the Palestinian side and of course the Arab neighbors it must be a common effort I don’t see any anybody singular to do the job but a common effort of several states of several organizations including un could in could promote to go some sort of a whatever autonomous semi-autonomous Palestinian state but in some connection with Israel they have to live together irrespective of what happened irrespective of 7th of October there’s no other choice Omar what hanis just mentioned he also mentioned Saudi Arabia and we know that before the attack of of October there was a normalization process ongoing especially also between um Israel and Saudi Arabia and the years before that was still under the Trump government there were the so-called Abraham Accords which aimed at normal normalizing relationship between a couple of Arab states and Israel however the Palestinians at that time always and already claimed that the Palestinian question was left outside of these whole Abraham Accords so they also felt kind of betrayed by their Arab neighbors who uh at least officially were also always pushing for them to support them but in the end effectively not really a lot of things happened so maybe the same question to you how do you think could um uh a peace Paradigm be developed is it the US and maybe Saudi Arabia together so first of all I think that the um the the immediate cause for the the timing of the Hamas attack was probably and some of them some of these leaders have indicated that was that the agreement between Israel the US and Saudi Arabia each for its own interest uh seemed imminent and that would have completely swept the whole Palestinian issue under the rug which was of course netanyahu’s policy for a long time uh to say we can manage the conflict and we can reach a sort of international and Regional peace and the Palestinians will manage them and Hamas it appears felt that um they had to act now they had been preparing the attack for 2 years in advance but I think that was the timing now things have changed since of course and you cannot go back to what there was but there is still uh a willingness in fact an interest by um important Arab states indeed not with the most um uh pleasant regimes but that’s what we have uh Saudi Arabia and various other Gulf States uh and Egypt and Jordan of course who already have some kind of peace with Israel they want to accept Israel they want Israel to be part now of the whole thing partly because of Iran um but now you have to resolve the question of Palestinians that can no longer be swept under the rug as many people had hoped it could be not only Israel but certainly Israel now how do you do that so first of all I think that the US is indeed crucial we have to understand that there there is now this bat going on between Nan and Biden are they providing arms or not uh Israel cannot fight a war for another two weeks without constant supplies of Arms from the United States Israel has become has made itself entirely dependent on the United States for arms for economic help and very much for diplomatic help that is for the The veto power that the US has in the security Council which is the enforcement agency of the icj so the international court of justice can say whatever it does which it has provisional measures but you know the US will V it um so the US is crucial but the Europe is too um I think there is a a new kind of thinking as to how do you square the circle of what I said before right the 7 million Palestinians 7 million Jews many of them living side by side they’re completely interlocked the the settlement project in the West Bank has made it impossible to have the traditional two-state solution done it’s without kicking out 600,000 uh Jews and creating a civil war in Israel so the what I’ve been impressed by is a plan that’s called the land for all and that’s a kind of idea of a confederation so it’s a little bit along these lines but it means that there would be two independent states their borders would be along the 67 line but that there would be a distinction between citizenship and residence you could be a citizen of one state but a resident of another so hypothetically you could be a settler you could remain in the now the state of Palestine you would vote for the Israeli Parliament but you would have to abide by the laws of the Palestinian State you wouldn’t be able to go out and uproot olive trees because you’d end up in jail or be deported the same you could be a Palestinian living in tucon Arizona who would want to go back to Palestine but your Palestine was hia so you could become a citizen of Palestine you could live in hia as a resident but you would be you would vote for the parliament the Palestinian Parliament and then you’d have a top sort of authority that would deal with everything that is no longer separable or the infrastructure which is now so tied together that that breaking it apart would be impossible so the borders would be soft bhist and the model of course is the EU model but we’re very far from that there now that’s an ideal that’s not something that can happen tomorrow but if you start thinking about that and you have an international engagement in trying to bring that about gradually and there are many phases going toward that you create a horizon of Hope and that’s what people don’t have now Palestinians don’t have it and I have to say there’s such despair also in Israel there there’s just a sense that there’s no hope if you create the Horizon of Hope one result of that is that you’re weakening the extremist the extremist on both sides thrive on desperation if you say we are moving to a better place they diminish in strength so I think that it’ll take a long time and you have to have to be bit polanish about it uh but I think it’s it it has to happen because if we don’t do that this region we are talking now about a crisis will get much much worse in a hurry and it may happen in the coming weeks and as uh Omar mentioned the different concepts which are already on the table I would say for many years there has been put a lot of creative thinking on in how a future state where Israelis and Palestinians could live together two states one state a land for all one Homeland um so all the things have already been on the table for many many years however the difficult uh the difficulty obviously was always that there was a lack of political will in investing in these uh ideas but I would like to touch upon one more which I think is a very important issue in this context and that is obviously the regional development because it seems that it becomes more dangerous for the region for Israel in part particular especially also with Lebanon and Hezbollah how do you assess the situation when it comes to the to the to the whole region what can we expect well I think to to solve in a long way and step by step uh the Palestinian uh issue in the way Omar just mentioned and for example if you speak with and we spoke with the young Palestinians they didn’t think about the Constitutional issues they thought about basic Freedom basic um rights they you would have and therefore I would say uh a court on on on human rights or fundamental rights is very important for both sides to to agree um I think if you solve these issues you have done a big step forward because then this kind of alliance between Iran and Hamas will not disappear but it will be downgraded very much and also the the issue in in Lebanon will be downgraded because you have a common front at the end you have to have a common front between Israel Palestine and of course the Arab neighbors not in going into another War but in going uh or to presenting to its citizens the difference if you have an ideological based country where ideology is more important than the welfare of the people or if you have uh uh a country which is caring for the people economically and socially and so on I think that that’s the reason and if you involve the International Community as I said the UN or whatever it is also important to give a clear signal to the mulas in Iran stop do what you want in your country if you if you we cannot interfere in it but don’t disturb and don’t spoil the situation in the other countries and Syria Syria you know the people are so poor in Syria uh is also dependent of course on Iran and partly on Russia so I think even the influence of Russia can be stopped if uh together with an engagement of the International Community of the Arab countries uh with Israel to solve the Palestinian issue I think it’s a big step forward and then of course you can also tell the the people in in Lebanon they also very poor after this catastrophe with with the explosion in in in the port it was very evident how poor the People Are People leave the country like they did in in in Syria I think um the the the the solution or the model of forming uh step by step uh two one two one state a hybrid solution let’s say in Palestine and then Israel can show to the people around how the difference is with live in peace or live in war because the one is connected with uh economic advancement and the other is connected with poverty my last question uh the podcast is called peace matters uh from your point of view what would peace mean for Israel and Palestine for Israelis and Palestinians uh well you know um I I grew up in Israel um and we always said we want peace um I was in a movement uh called peace now among the founders of peace now uh after the war of 73 which was my October uh October 6th um but the question is what is it uh peace can be a sort of aspiration you want to have Tranquility you don’t want to be um threatened uh you want to have security you want to have Prosperity Prosperity is very important um but you have to give up things as well and that’s more difficult and I think that has been difficult for both sides because Palestinians for them the the moment of uh catastrophe is the knb the catastrophe it’s when most of the Palestinians were kicked out of the land that became the land of Israel or the state of Israel so for me peace uh would have to be that both sides would feel secure that both sides would have equality and that both sides could live in dignity uh and that means that both sides have to give up some of what they want they have to share uh things that they want to have on their own um that’s very difficult right now we are living in a situation where everyone in the region has a deep sense of insecurity I think people have not felt so insecure at least since 1948 that insec Purity it as I was saying earlier breeds violence to have peace you have to start thinking about how do you undo that sense of insecurity and the only way you can undo it is by giving things up you have to distinguish between what is essential what people must have and what people can compromise on that that’s the core of it and I think there are elements among Palestinians and among Israeli Jews and of course among Palestinians who are Israeli citizens who are now very deeply intimidated by what’s going on who wants to have that and who are willing to compromise uh but it’s very hard to get that to to that point I always think about what happened in France you know um uh during the war of Aira was a huge terrible War terrible devastation V numbers of people killed in Algeria France was in turmoil um and it was very hard for it to give up uh this territory that it had ruled since the 1830s and once it did France suddenly could become a modern State France could actually develop and that to think about that in terms of what is going on now how much creativity energy Good Will there actually is in both groups and how difficult it is to tap into it because of this deep sense of animosity and insecurity so that’s where I would start and I think it’s a very long way ahead but the peace has to be based on that on both sides giving things up and recognizing each other’s right to equality and dignity thank you so much uh Omar Hanes same question uh for you briefly uh basically of course fully agree I think what we need is two things respect for each other and for the sacrifices the people had and and the victimhood mutual respect and of course Economic Development the wrong thing of Mr Trump was not that he insisted on economic issues and economic development but he did not uh respect the Palestinians as as a people and their their freedom and their Liberties and their rights so we need both and I think that that means peace and what we had uh you mentioned France what you had in the European Union was of course that Economic Development helped people not to go into revisionism that’s the difference also with with Russia you know Russia you don’t have an economic development for the broad base so you have a red tier economy and then the the people have uh following Putin in his uh revisionism and imperialism so what we need here in the sense is that Israel must respect the people of Gaza and their basic sufferings but also the Gaza people or the Palestinians have to accept the suffering Israel had in the past and and insecurity it has now security is one of the basic issues of course if you bring these people to these two elements together mutual respect and economic development I think It prepares peace and then you have the International Community Helping both sides to overcome the you know the the ideology that you cannot move that you cannot respect the other because the other murdered our friends yes it is a fact but nevertheless you have to start to respect the other side as well Omar and Hannis thank you so much for your time and for your very interesting and valuable insights thank you thank you very much if you like this discussion please follow us on our social media Twitter Facebook Instagram or YouTube and I hope to see you next time again [Music] [Music]