Public Accounts Committee Meeting, Thursday 27 June 2024

The Public Accounts Committee met on Thursday 27th June 2024.

The Committee heard further evidence on their third inquiry into Child Poverty in Northern Ireland from the Department for Communities.

right okay okay I declare the meeting open to the public can I welcome members the 16th meeting of the Public Accounts committee uh can I advise members that the committee meeting will be recorded and broadcast through Parliament buildings and online however there could be a slight delay moving between any private and public session can I ask members to be patient can advise that those in the public Gallery are welcome to use mobile devices as long as they’re in airplane mode and that all devices are muted and also connect to the assembly Wi-Fi the password are in the gallery rules it is not permitted at any time to take photographs or record uh the proceedings um members any apologies bo bo Tom Tom banan okay thank you um draft minutes uh okay members the draft minutes is um on page seven for the meeting held on the 20th of June if members would consider can I seek agreement okay I’ll sign those thank you okay members um can I refer you to correspondence dated the 17th of June 24 at Pages 12 to 14 of the meeting pack from Neil Hutcherson from the Federation small businesses providing further information provide following the evidence session on public procurement in Northern Ireland I have to say it was a very good uh session we’re very appreciative of uh Neil and the FSB for coming to us and presenting that important information our members content that the correspondence be forwarded to the northern audit office to be considered in the inquiry into public procurement in Northern irland thank you members can I refer you to Pages 15 to 21 of the meeting pack for correspondence dated the 19th of June 2024 from the permanent secretary uh and accounting officer of the Department of Education Mark Brown providing further information following recent consideration of the memorandum reply on closing the Gap our members content yep just during uh at that point um there’s a number of of programs listed in in the response and I just think it might be worthwhile if if you agree um as to whether the audit office would consider if these are value for money um because in the past I know there’s been some concern in relation to some of the programs yet can follow on thank you um members you content to note the correspondent yes y okay uh members just before we move on under chair’s business I just want to put on uh firm and full record um or appreciation uh from the since the return of the assembly uh to uh Lucia and the team uh that have done a tremendous job in assisting and helping us um since February we have been through into the deep end I think things have went fairly smoothly the relationship committee is very very good uh and the outcomes of our inquiry so far have been very very positive uh and a lot of hard workers wanted and I just want to say Lua we do appreciate the work that you and Karen and Barbara and Kristen do to support us and of course our comms team that are tuned in and also I want to thank uh the audit office darina and and her team for the tremendous work and assistance uh that have been provided to us over the last few months I have said on many occasions and I’ll say it again the work of the N learn audit office is phenomenal it plays a very critical role uh in Northern Ireland in terms of uh scrutinizing public or the spending of of departments in terms of public money and ensuring good value for public money uh and I think it’s an invaluable uh resource uh in in The Wider public interest and we are deeply appreciative of the work that you’ve done and also the assistance to this committee so thank you okay members can I ask if you have any relevant Declaration of interest to declare okay I think you’re okay P correspondent refer members to page 25 to 37 of the meeting pack there are written submissions to our inquiry into po child poverty in Northern Ireland from Action for Children and the British Association of Social Workers members in the tabled papers there is also correspondence from save the children providing written submissions to our inquiry into child poverty in Northern Ireland are you content to note these submissions and forward it for the inclusion in the inquiry report thank you okay members page 38 of the meeting pack as a letter dated the 23rd of June 2024 from Noel mcalindon chair of the noral mental health Arts Festival idling some of the grips recent activities and offering ongoing support to the committee in its inquiry into Mental Health Services in Northern Ireland are you contend to note the correspond yeah okay thank you okay members we move on to the m Broadband investment in Northern Ireland uh and at this juncture we welcome dinina uh to the table is that yeah it is not here is it okay okay members um the memorandum of reply on broadband investment Northern Ireland at Pages 41 to 49 of the pack uh the Public Accounts committee made 10 recommendations and the Department of Finance accepts all 10 recommendations uh and they’re included on pages 45 to 49 of the papers uh so can I ask uh Lua to brief the committee thank you chair um well I think um in summary as you said yourself share all of the recommendations have been recommended um and accepted um by the department this is an inquiry that um took place in the in the last mandate um and um so I was quite bit of time has elapsed um you can see from the M that you know quite a lot of work actually you know has been done um within each of those recommendations um so I would um you know suggest that the committee just um seek an update in 12 months time okay uh D yeah I I would concur with that um you I think um you’ve got very clear succinct and informative responses and in this and some of the recommendations you’ll see were quite future focused um to take into account for future schemes of a similar nature so I suppose it’s to provide the committee with an assurance that if we are looking at any schemes of a similar nature we will take on board the committee’s recommendations uh and look um look at them through that lenses um should they transpire yeah uh I agree hopefully other departments will follow uh similar resp response in terms of some of the MS uh so yeah as members content to agree to the clerk’s suggestion to follow up in 12 months yeah um can I ask that on recommendation 10 that we um follow up sooner it’s saying about clawbacks 4 million clawbacks um have been received up to March 2024 with it due to be completed by the 31st of December 2024 just potentially write to them December January time to say have you got all your your clawbacks yeah happy enough members happy enough for that y okay thank you okay members um can I seek agreement uh to refer this m to the department for the economy okay thank you okay members um our next item on the agenda is the inquiry on child poverty in Northern Ireland an Evidence session and uh would welcome into the room or Witnesses still see you okay members can I uh welcome on behalf of the committee Colin Bo permanent secretary for counting officer for Department of communities EMR melli deputy secretary in engaged communities group department for communities K Rin deputy secretary work and health group department for communities and George Samson Chief Economist and director of analytics department for communities Dar carille contr aitor General is with us and also shur Stevenson and Julie Su from the treasury officer of accounts Department of Finance can I refer members to the relevant papers relating to this agenda item at Pages 51 to 120 off your packs and page 2 to5 the table papers uh Mr boy M melli Mr Roney and Mr Samson you’re very welcome to join us uh at the public accli committee today we appreciate your time and for taking our questions on this very important uh inquiry this is a key priority area for many members across the assembly and absolutely an area where members of this committee were very interested in and Keen to hear answers to some of the important questions that we have so at this point I uh invite you to make some brief opening remarks thank you chair uh and thank you for inviting us to come uh to meet the committee today uh we agree it’s a very very important subject indeed um I know everyone will agree with uh my Department’s Viewpoint that one child in poverty is a child too many uh we know that a child who starts our life in poverty is much more likely to remain in that situation into adulthood and Beyond as the audit officers report High highlights poverty is a complex issue and there is not a single cause since 2016 DFC has led on the coordination and Reporting on the child poverty strategy on behalf of the executive and during that time much work has been done across all departments endeavoring to address child poverty and its impacts this is well summarized in the body of the nio report and we’ve seen some movement across a range of indicators such as The Slight reduction in absolute child poverty before housing costs going down from 18% to 15% over the strategy’s lifetime though more recently we acknowledge that rates have risen uh primarily due to the cost of living impacts as they have done across all our neighboring jurisdictions in 2023 2022 23 the proportion of children in relative poerty poverty after housing costs in the UK UK is estimated to be 30% it’s 26% in Scotland it’s 33% in Wales it’s 25% in Northern Ireland despite the delivery challenges noted in the auto offic report we’ve seen progress across a number of areas creation of additional jobs by invest in ey increased benefit uptake extended schools activities uh social housing build investment in neighborhood renewal but what we haven’t seen is the cumulative effect of these activities having the full desired impact the strategy has brought Focus to Executive Department’s efforts to address child poverty it’s given visibility and progress key against key actions with Comprehensive annual reports being laid in the assembly and published on the DFC website we recognize the value in this report and the insights that have emerged and we recognize that much more needs to be done collectively in a more connected way to ensure that every child has the opportunity to thrive the audit office has indeed identified a number of key areas for improvement in its recommendations and I welcome in particular the recognition that addressing levels of child poverty in Northern Ireland is a whole of government issue despite DFC focus on responding to social need poverty and deprivation from the nio report it’s clear that addressing child poverty requires a more targeted and sustained focus by the department for communities health education economy Finance Justice and the executive office we recognize also the value of our sectoral partners and key stakeholders in working with us to achieve what we all want to see the eradication of child poverty in Northern Ireland is a hugely ambitious task one which is evidence-based which needs to have clear Direction dedicated resources and an action plan for delivery and I’ll stress this which is practical which is fully funded which is sustainable and which is value for money we will continue to work closely with other departments in the Civil Service and other key parties to bring forward an anti-poverty strategy for executive consideration and endorsement in this financial year this is a challenging area but the ni’s recommendations will be included as an integral part of the evidence space that we will use to inform the decisions to be made by my Minister and following his consideration by the Norther executive Minister Lions has already stated his commitment to bringing the strategy forward at PE in this financial year and my officials have been tasked to do just that I hope these opening remarks are a helpful starting point and we are indeed very happy to take questions from the committee uh thank you very much for those opening remarks and for keeping them to the point in short as well which will enable members to get straight to questions uh as I’ve already outlined it is a huge priority for us all as legislators uh and absolutely for this committee we do have concerns those concerns are also very clearly outlined in the audit office report uh and uh some of the questions that we have today will Point very strongly towards those concerns so firstly Mr P child poverty levels across all measures are either unchanged or have increased since this strategy was implemented do you believe that this strategy has been effective in achieving its aims of turning the Curve on child poverty the really key phrase in your question I think is turning the curve um the nio report focused quite a lot on Scotland and we also have been focusing on Scotland quite a bit as well and watching the level of investment that Scots have put into eradication of child poverty indeed they’ve said it’s their government have said it’s their number one priority they’ve stated that on many occasions and the first ministers and repeated first ministers have been very very clear on that they’re struggling to turn the curve they’re not going to meet their targets this year it’s very very unlikely they’re going to meet their targets and the same chill winds that blow in our face will blow in their face and when I look at the magnitude of investment and I look at the level of focus and the level of the level of strategic leverage that they’re trying to affect to secure that change in the dial turning of the dial I’m recognizing what the permanent secretary over there says what their first Minister has said on a number of occasions that the Turning of that dial will take more than the life of one government to do it it will take a genuine sustained Focus over a a a long number of years to achieve that so I think to answer your question I think this was a useful starting point I think it it focused on a lot of things that were already being done and with and if we’re going to be truthful about this those things were being done because departments had very limited Capac capacity to move outside what was being done at no stage did that uh did that strategy receive any additional funding um I have five people in my department working on it and I’ve kept them working on it the whole time that I’ve been there and they are very very important with the knowledge that they have but it’s not an army uh and I’m looking at at what would be required to sustain a real change and I’m looking at some of the things for example in the expert p report that people are actually asking for and the significant sums of money involved in all of that so that’s where I’m coming back to focus strategic leverage funding affordability value for money all of that so to answer your question I think it was a good starter but I think there’s much more to do yeah well one of the key parts of that question I would have picked up is that across all measures are either unchanged unchanged or have increased so what impact is your department have in improving the outcomes of the strategy well I don’t think my Department’s working alone in this this is an executive strategy there are multiple departments engaged in it you’re the lead Department we’re we’re the lead department and if you read the audit office report you will see that our role is to monitor the delivery and it is to report on it and it is to coordinate activities so I have no responsibility or role or scope to hold any other department to account to change gear and set other departments x y and Zed is not working we’d like you to change that please Mr Bo with respect if I OB to take that attitude in terms of review withness or every Department around here would go nowhere you’re the lead Department responsible for the implementation of this strategy I’ve asked you a direct question and you’re pointing to other executive parties what they or our executive department ass to what they are or are not doing I’m asking you as the lead the lead Department Mr Bo I’ve asked you a very direct question the the key point of this question is the child poverty levels across all measures are either unchanged or have increased my question to you is what has your department actually achieved as the lead Department in relation to this area my lead Department’s role is to coordinate to report and to monitor that is set in legislation the legislation gives me no mandate over any other department During the period of that time that that strategy ran from 2016 to 2022 for the first three years of that we had no we had we had a pause in the political process we had no we had no stewardship at political level so there was no ministerial oversight group that was setting above this so this was this was literally left down to officials in terms of doing it the officials gave it their best shot what powers did the the accounting officer have and not sure if you run that role then but what powers did the accounting officer have in terms of oversight and the absence of a minister and those in that period was a cross cutting issue so we wouldn’t have had the power to say okay we don’t think this strategy is actually working let’s Bend these particular activities let’s go for a a different approach in in the remaining years of this in fact um our minister at the time took the decision to extend the strategy by a further two years Beyond 2020 into 2022 so in the same way as we’ve been operating in the last couple of years without ministers and we could not do anything which was cross cutting of any significant nature I would suggest to you that trying to change an executive owned and approved anti-poverty strategy would have required ad ministers to do that and an executive approval to do that maybe just add in and that respect to the rules and responsibilities so when the strategy came over to the department for communities this lead Department it came with an an established governance structure and oversight role which Finly firmly put the executive and its ministers in that role department for communities under their accounting officer then was responsible for ensuring that that governance was maintained as far as it could be and that went to our monitoring and our reporting Arrangements in the main what it didn’t allow us to do was have the agility to respond to the economic shocks that subsequently emerged from the co pandemic and from the various crises we were in a structure that we inherited with a little room to move within that and that’s not to excuse or to say that we didn’t act we went and we delivered what was in the strategy at that time the fundamental question was that the strategy the right approach when it was designed in 2016 to eradicate child poverty now is one that we are learning lessons from and we you know look to colleagues and we look to advice and we look to our stakeholders how to move that but I think we were constrained in a up to a point m m you pointed directly to the question that I’ve asked Mr Bo has the strategy been effective in achieving its aim of turning the curve on child I think you’ve both answered no not yet it hasn’t yet no but to date to date it hasn’t yeah so many years later are we down the road well from 2016 Deni s it’s yeah do you think that’s acceptable um I think it does require a gear change I think it requires a different approach um but it requires a realistic approach as well what gear change what approach what realistic approach are we talking about because if we’re eight years down the road what what are we talking about well in these sort of circumstances I tend to look at all the jurisdictions that do I mean I’ve been looking at southern Ireland but Scotland tend to be a pretty strong leader new New Zealand also are are well out there in terms of driving forward with a much more focused approach I would say when you look back at the strategy which the executive agreed in 2016 that strategy was very broad there’s a lot of activity in there you had departments which were leading on particular strands of work so there were um designed in features that I think have led us to where we are the strategy of the time was born out of a lot of consultation um I think for the most part from my understanding and and reading back on comments at the time most people were satisfied with where it was time has moved on um and it hasn’t moved the dial to the extent that we would have liked but even those jurisdictions where they are doing novel things and they are compressing down into a smaller number of key factors that they want to change to try and turn that dial they’re still finding that an ex an extremely challenging piece to do so even if we had a set of targets tomorrow morning um and we knew what levers we needed to pull to to to try and strive towards those targets it could be very challenging in terms of Meeting those I think it’s sa to same Mr P you’re not filling me with any hope or confidence um in addition to your coordination role across you know other departments did your department of responsibility for delivering any specific aspect of the strategy yeah we’ve we were focusing on things like affordable affordable warmth um welfare reform mitigations actually formed a huge part of what we were doing as well in terms of eradication of poverty as well um would have been two key elements uh operation of all of the social security system and and a way discretion support would have another piece to make sure that we did everything we could to put money into people’s pockets um also uh everything to do with homeless homelessness prevention would have been a would have been a key element in that as well so there’s a a wide range of what we do that would have impacted in terms of in terms of the strategy but in terms of mainset if I’m if I’m honest I think we wanted to do everything we could to try and make sure that the strategy actually delivered uh and if you actually dig into the nio report you’ll see lots and lots of small activities as well as a lot of lot of bigger ones as well you want to come in on that to just before you do thank you Mr W just before you do you know what was achieved by uh those programs that you’ve outlined you know was Target set were the targets achieved by the department um in relation to those yeah well in terms of social housing bill for example yeah the targets were set until until uh the end of the strategy yes we’ve had in different times now in terms of the the Ty constraints in the budget uh but even within that you know we were building 2,000 new starts each year we we still have significant housing stress so it’s it’s it’s still not enough uh but in terms of how that impacts on children um I know the strategy that the housing executive employe in terms of trying to prevent homelessness they were well funded by the department and their Strat their strategy was to put the child first and which they they’ve done very very successful and maybe just to add you know the reporting against the targets and and the child strategy was laid in the assembly it was brought and cated and reported on annually the the strategy itself The Targets in it were met but on reflection and with review were they the right targets to address the impacts and obviously with the figures that we have in front of us now why is it taking eight years to decide whether or not they’re the right targets or you know I think that’s a really key point because going forward now the child poverty strategy is being taken into the wider anti-poverty strategy where we’re looking at the wider social and economic space that child poverty sits in it’s not a single one alone item it’s part of a wider ecosystem where we need to tackle the root causes of poverty in the communities and across the population and the child itself will be focused in that well if the track record since 2016 standing to go by I don’t have any great confidence to be honest while the Trade property strategy was extended from 2020 it was allowed to lapse in 22 given the continued evidence of Need for more uh for one of the most vulnerable groups in society why was the strategy not further extended in 2022 the focus was really been applied in terms of moving ahead um we discussed that with our minister at that stage in terms of moving it into the anti-poverty space um and that was SE to be a much more valuable exercise than what we wanted to do was to incorporate child poverty as a key element in terms of the wer antipoverty pieace that was that was the approach okay from your knowledge Mr Bo has the child poverty strategy had any successes that you can point to well in terms of of um obsolute child poerty dropping from 18% to %. yep that was that’s very modest in terms of the other indicators which which didn’t move very far yeah I’ll bring George in and the secondes across the detail in in in a more forensic way than I am um I think when you look back at the claim at that which which this was done in the time that this was done um when you when you set the hair running in terms of saying there’s the strategy that let’s let’s we believe this is going to work let it Rule and let it let it take effect um that’s what happened and that’s what we did and every Department that needed its head to do what it needed to do was allowed to do it um and we followed the methodology through that was to be deployed um and what we have now is the benefit of 20 Vision hindsight to say this didn’t work as well as we thought it was going to work but I would also challenge back to say based on what I’ve seen in other jurisdictions where they have been more adventurous where they have been more focused where they have been ahead of the curve You’ be asking the same questions of those jurisdictions I’m asking it of you I well I’m I’m giving you I give you the answer I don’t think it has done as well as it could have done absolutely but what I’m saying to you is as an exceptionally Tallen challenging task so your view that we’re we’re not filling you full of confidence I think if you look across the world and look at where where child poverty is being eradicated it wouldn’t fill anybody full of confidence because I Norther Ireland is amongst the worst example of child property in terms of well I’m looking at the numbers I’m looking at the jurisdiction here and I’m comparing the numbers with other parts of the UK and the other parts of the UK are worse Wales is worse do you think that’s a good thing in no I’m just answering your question I’m not don’t think it’s a good thing at all I don’t think any child poverty is good I’m actually with you in this I want to see child poverty dealt with properly I don’t dispute that Mr Bo we all want to see it but I don’t believe there’s been enough action to guarantee it at all that’s the concern I have and in the opening responses to those very straightforward questions I am not filled with the slightest bit of confidence that the department are going to lead in this anyway successfully or have done today to be honest Department sitting back in hindsight is two of the things that I would have definitely apply I think it’s really important we are learning the lessons so there have been many successful Pilots that have gone through the child strategy poverty uh the child poverty strategy Health inequalities children early interventions for children prevention have come more to the for than reactive actions that maybe didn’t turn the curve as much as they should have seeing where the investment is needed and investment is needed I think that would be the core principle moving forward this has to be resourced but Health inequalities feed into child poverty inequalities we can see now the map before us in the landscape yeah you know certain categories of that disabled children for example need need our support and help so I think Mr Bo made the point earlier the scatter gun almost approach of this first strategy where it listed a wide wide range of areas and topics and most of whom were achieved it didn’t focus on those key laevers that would move and I think think we now have significant amount of evidence that we didn’t have when this was set in 2016 to say if we invest here we have potential to move the we can’t give commitments this this is a societal issue at its heart but we need to focus on those key areas that we know work and prevention ear years in particular would be a real Focus going forward in the wider antipoverty space the biggest s just to say chair the biggest lesson for me in all of us yeah is the configuration in terms of the authority to do what needs to be done if correction corrective action has to be taken in a dynamic and I away during the delivery of it that needs to be thought through and done differently and and having political institutions available during that time to oversee that and enable the decision- making with the legislation that’s in place is really key so the idea that this department or any other department sat in his hands and slept walk through this is wrong and misleading we did not do that we were heavily heavily constrained during that time I have no doubt that political stability played its part uh without any question but it does not in any way justify why eight years later the curve has not been turned in a way that is acceptable to be honest just Mr Mar you’ve touched on an important point do you believe that the child poverty strategy was ambitious enough I think for in 2016 it was an ambitious strategy at that time it had come behind quite a number of different models and different interventions and in 2016 it was the first time that the executive took full ownership and all the Departments had roles to play um whether that model was fit for purpose and have we other lessons can we learn from that now we absolutely can but at the time both in its approach and its content it w it had a level of ambition um might be too wide in its ambition uh so that’s the point I’m making that we may need to Target done okay and there needed to be extra capacity to allow departments to do what they needed to do you can’t put astrology on the ground and say let’s make this work let’s change the dial of something as big as child poverty but let’s do it within existing budgets and by the way let’s cut those existing budgets as we go so you’re going to get what you’ve always got so my play here to Pac is you want to make recommendations around this and you will do that we cannot do this we cannot do an un poverty strategy without the funding available to do it it’s just not possible and we’re kidding ourselves we think so so to say let’s look back at the last eight years my my knowledge of the last eight years has been brexit Co standing up services out of nothing not having enough money cut after cut after cut after cut that’s been my experience of of that time and my colleagues have done that as well against the backdrop of no political institution so that that leaves it very very difficult to deliver this this is not down to departments on their own there is a whole system of government here that has to deliver this and even where you’ve got somewhere like Scotland with the stability and the form of government they’ve got they’re still not turning that dial so I’m I’m really pushing hard on the realism around this because this is really dear to us we deal with poverty every single day of the week all of us we don’t shy back from it we’re honest about and we’re transparent about it so we have no problem sitting here in front of you taking responsibility what we’re responsible for but we would like that to be understood properly and not to say okay that’s a portion them here because this is shared right across the piece and to take ‘s Point nobody knew back in 2016 I think 2016 looked pretty adventurous at the time I think there’s been a lot of experience gained along the way and I think if you had some of the Scots sitting in the room here it’ be very interesting to hear officials perspective on the on the journey they’re traveling along as well thank you l Mar Mr bo uh padri gar is on the link padri I’m just checking you can hear me okay before I start yes perfect yeah yeah okay look thanks for your answer so far um and I suppose for me there are two issues really which I want to touch on um one is on the focus on turning the curve and then the other’s on Cross departmental working so we and we’ve mentioned a couple of times around turning the curve and that’s been kind of a theme um in what we’re looking at and I suppose it’s just to Pro that a we bit um and I I totally appreciate what you’ve mentioned in 2016 and and and the changing Dynamic and I think that is something that’s important The Learning in there in terms of being aile and being able to adapt these things I totally agree with you on that point um but in terms of turning a curve we’re we’re looking really here at reducing child poverty um and obviously that’s what we have to do but but I mean in terms of ambition are we you know maybe it’s maybe it’s just technical term that’s used I’m wondering why we’re not using the term eradicating child poverty and and why we’re talking about reducing child poverty that there might be a technical kind of nuance on that and correct me if if I’ve picked you up wrong on that but I’m just kind of concerned that that’s our Target and that that’s our ambition that we’re aiming to reduce rather than to eradicate okay I think it’s a very it’s a very important point you’ve just made I and and I fully acknowledge it porri um at this moment in time if you were to ask me do I know what the executive this current executive wants to do is it to reduce poverty or eradicate it I don’t know I don’t know um and I think that’s where the challenge comes in I think there’s a a range of possibilities here so if you looking at child poverty you’d be looking at Dimensions around around income you’d be trying to improve the levels of income whether people are on benefits and can’t work or whether they’re in work and they need to earn more and prosperity needs to generate that you’d be looking at the whole uh dimension of employability and the quality of jobs and where those jobs are and the accessibility of those jobs and everything that feeds into that including the extent to which children perform well enough at school right through to the availability of child care right through to the work that’s being done on improving special educational needs there’s a whole of government system at stake here and around all of that You’ got all of the wider pressures in terms of trying to deal with the cost of living and all the rest of that that we have and I think to to actually arrive at the question answer the question of whether you want to eradicate it or whether you want to reduce it is down to two things first of all clarity about the quality of your strategy and making sure that you understand that that the four or five or six labors that you’re going to pull or combine will actually have the impact of of of either reducing or eradicating child poverty uh and then making sure that in terms of those labors that you want to pull you’ve actually got the money to pay for it because there’s no point in sitting here having a conversation and having an audit off nice audit office report and having a wish list tacked at the back of it that says we’d like to eradicate child pover and here’s all the things we like to do but you know what we can’t afford any of it because we don’t have the fiscal levers to do it again back to the whole of government approach and I know I’m being very challenging back here because I feel very passionate about this and I totally believe that if you’re going to fix this problem this is not about one department or about any just even the Departments themselves it’s also about all of the other sectors and it’s this institution itself and it’s what the executive want so I looked at Scotland again so I’m I I I’ve watched the first minister in March of last year holding a summit on child poverty eradication of child poverty eradication of food bank usage is the number one commitment the number one objective of my government that’s some statement and without us doing our homework here without us bringing through the elements of what that strategy can be for Northern Ireland without us assessing what’s affordable and what’s not without us bringing that evidence in front of Minister Landes for him to sift that through and Si that through and then for him to take that on through to the executive that’s the process we’ve got to step through there are a layer of significant challenges in there to try and do that and that’s the pro that that is the only way we can answer that question so if I was if you’re asking me right now I don’t know but we will know by the time the executive consider the paper I think we’ll do the answer then just can I just can I I only have one more question here Daniel just on this so I mean my second question really is around the cross departmental working um so can I say firstly I agree with you on on the one Department thing I worked as a primary school teacher before I took on this Rule and I worked one Lo the priv areas and and for me poverty yes it was could it be seen in education in educational ecomes yes of course it could but it could also be seen in health outcomes it could also be seen through the Department of Justice it could also be seen in in economic uh zones and an economic regions and it can be seen cross departmental so would totally agree with you on that and from your experience as suppos working on on this strategy and this report on particular I met I’m sure a m of other reports the cross departmental element is is one that youve you’ve mentioned and you focused on and I think it’s essential here so in terms of you see for me in terms of how we go forward and actually getting solutions to this it’s actually lessening to your experience of how we can change this and how we can make things better and that’s fundamental to me in this so in your experience what is the way to crack that what is the way to ensure that while you’re a elite department and there’s a respons they obviously associate with that what is the way to crack that s of working and ensure that actually going forward that we’re not you know faced with with a similar situation or or in this report um again that that we’re looking at Targets which aren’t achieved how do we crack that I I think I’ll start off and I’ll bring I’ll bring colleagues in on this as well but just to say to por we did some work um just before the executive come back and the assembly come back um with head of civil service on her missions and one of the missions was a people Mission and that people Mission looked at all of this stuff it looked at Health inequalities educational inequalities housing inequalities I looked at all of that um and every Department was around the table there were people in this room engaged in that from all parties as well I think and I could see the desire to fix it but the Silver Bullet in in terms of fixing this has got to be around having the capacity to do the things they need to do so the idea I think the ELD office report comment on a couple of places we see a lot of the things that you’re already doing and the reason you see a lot of the things that we’re already doing some of them work very well but some of the newer things a you need the capacity of having the additional people to do them and B you need the extra money for some of them as well so I think this idea of trying to do more for Less has been really really difficult I think we’ve been sumers sting as the service I have to take my hat off to our staff at all levels who have um hav sat in their hands they’ve done two and three jobs at times to actually get us through uh so I think there’s a there’s a a nus on us to try and find extra capacity to do new things in different ways and I think the mission stuff showed some of that um and I think we should be targeting particular items rather than trying to eat the elephant I should in any given two threee period we should be picking the two or three aspects around child poverty or poverty that we want to actually tackle and address and stop trying to do everything all the time do you want to add anything to that or any you guys want to come in so I suppose it’s just the audit office recommendations around you know removing Silo working and cross cutting work it is a priority for departments and we are looking managing public money does give quite a lot of different models that can be applied which one is best which one is fit for purpose the one that is best is the governance comes from the executive down for issues that are across government and that is the model that was employed for this strategy but in employing that model we just need to make sure everyone that’s involved understands very very clearly what their roles and responsibilities are it’s it’s actually not overly complicated it’s set out quite clearly for us in guidance um know CN herself and her other reports around you know Innovation and risk in the public sector shows there are models there that work there is good work happening both within government and with our partners especially in the Wier third sector in the vry and Community sector so while it is a long period of time the evidence based that we have the lessons that we have learned allow us now to very very quickly look at a model that potentially will turn the curve and I keep saying potentially turn the curve because all we can do is what is best practiced now and what can we learn from and what can we take forward and at each stage we need to step back and review um but under the models for joint working you know they’re set out for US Treasury has also responded to The Wider National Audit offices report on Cross government working with a number of clear recommendations and it its responses which again gives permissions here in Northern Ireland to our departments and a very clear direction of travel that one Department cannot do this on its own we have to work together and in a time of great stress around capacity and funding and resour is we work together on priorities and to Mr Bo’s point it’s the priorities that we now need set for us and work together around that do you want to say we wored with the neighborhood of newor one the pilots not and and Derry yes so the people in place um strategic review is is ongoing at the moment but that is looking really from the bottom up rather than government looking at our own processes and going down we’ve gone out to our neighborhood renewal groups to our sectors we’ve engaged with our voluntering community partner Partners too as to what their view is of how we work together what are the blocks for those partners coming into the Civil Service to to engage you know and relatively simple things in the wider scheme of things around bureaucracy onetime applications multi-year budgets and ways around that and how if we don’t have them how can we support the sector in that wider strategic aame and really really useful work coming out of that including also potentially from you know the audit office and and from the pac’s perspective areas of potential duplication of funding and wider transparency on the use of public funds where we can see very very clearly through a digital landscape now rather than a widespread of paper where is the money what is actually working what are the outcomes and if it’s working there will it work here and is there a rural model needed that’s different from an urban model and all of those key elements have been tested through that pilot as well which will link into this wider piece of work thank e sorry go on ahead go ahead want to come in one second for if that’s okay yeah yeah of course just picking up on the on the question around cross departmental working and I think we have a number of examples where that that is very effective and and certainly we can learn lessons from it in the employability space I think there’s a realization and understanding right across all Departments of the the benefits of increasing income for families and and and for children so if I took two examples from from my side of the house in terms of job start for 18 to 24 year olds we have specialist programs within within that program program which is bringing Health Justice education economy together about helping and supporting young people into work whether they be uh young people with disabilities with health conditions with turning Citizens Care levers um and a very dedicated and and passionate approach to ensuring that we we we give those opportunities to all of those young people um and for our local labor market Partnerships working across all of the 11 Council areas I think you’ll find that in every one of those um areas we will have representation from Health and Justice at education setting alongside ourselves and Industry and volunteering Community sector about helping and supporting people back into work so there are many examples where cross departmental working is is is effective and not working in Salos well I mean I totally agree with you on on all the points that you’ve made um because I think for me fundamentally the best way to actually reduce poverty is is by breaking the cycle of poverty um and that’s through employment and and it’s through education as well as M out of other factors um but one of the things that you touched on I thought was was poal in this is multi-year budget um because in terms of us looking at at how we tackle poverty and how we actually eradicate poverty ad hoc fun doesn’t cut it um and year funding doesn’t cut it it’s looking at sustainability and it’s looking at this over a longer period of time and actually how we can plan ahead and reduce it so I mean in terms of of what you’ve said and certainly um would certainly stand over from from constituency perspective um the the absolute uh I suppose how the imperative uh evidence for the community and volun sector and everything that that’s done locally as well um so look I’ve I mean you’ve answered a lot of the questions that I had I had a few others but but you you’ve touched on those points as well so really appreciate your answers thank you thank you pck before I move to John sh Mr Bo want to pick up on something that you had said uh obviously this EXE the executive the assembly has been back since February which is 5 months later I find it quite alarming that as a permanent secretary as a as a an accounting officer for for Department that you’re not conscious of which direction the executive is going in in terms of uh whether they want to eradicate or reduce poverty and my question really for you is is that because the strategy has not yet been brought before the executive the the new one or that there’s no program for government to outline the direction of travel I have a good feeling for what will be in the program for government that’s not an issue for me at all I think what’s more the issue um whenever nio contacted us about doing the review of the child poverty strategy um the last thing I wanted to do was put in front of my Minister and we had a draft we had a draft antipoverty strategy set in which minister hary saw before she before she before the institutions dropped um last thing I want to do was was give him a strategy which might change so just to go back to what I said in my opening statement I want to make sure that whatever comes through Mano is going to form an integral part of what I’m recommending to him I there’s some good stuff in there so I want to make sure he’s getting Best in Class here in terms of what’s going to work that’s really what I’m trying to do no point in me asking him to look at it and then say well actually we may change that in four or five months so let’s not I’m not going to waste his time but he does want us to move really fast and we are moving fast and we will move fast I’ll give you that commitment I have no doubt you’re giving me the commitment my definition and your definition of fast definitely differ I would say Mr Bole uh just in relation to another Point you’d raised about resources you obviously you’ve made valid points about funding I’ve heard them from multiple uh accounting officers for various departments and I I understand the challenges uh in terms of funding and indeed the hurdles on the time scale from 2016 to now but you’ve also mentioned in terms about resources challenges with resources uh is an issue with resources uh made worse uh by the challenges faced by your department in Recruitment and Retention of Staff uh no the challenges are effectively an issue of of budget um so you know we know the number of staff that we would like to have we know the number of staff that we can afford to have um there about 660 sorry 690 actually uh posts that we we would love to fill but we can’t fill and they won’t be filled so many of those posts are relevant to the work around this strategy from 2016 to to to now and ultimately going forward well if you were asking me would would I like uh a few more of them deployed to work on child poverty antipoverty yes I would um OB certainly I would um I mean we’ve got five at the minute dedicated on this and we’ve kept them dedicated out the whole way through so they have continued to review what’s going on look at evidence base and all the research is going we put additional Research into play as well but yeah I would I would I would need more people I haven’t actually totally Quantified it so if I give a if I give a figure right now I may want to revisit in a couple of weeks time not that’ll make any difference CU I’m not going to get them anyway so is it safe to say then that the number of vacum posts or unfilled posts in your department are hindering any potential to progress or in previous T progress the strategy uh to where it should be they’re having yeah they’re having they’re requiring me to make uh decisions about where I deploy my resources across my organization prioritize you mean prioritize yeah so you know I pick you up wrong but does that tell me the child pover the child poverty strategy was not a priority then what it’s trying to say to you is there will be different stages of work so whenever you drive over the different stages of work so for example when we didn’t have an executive and we were keeping an eye on where this where the the uh evidence base was on any new emerging research or whatever four or five people think we can keep that dedicated but if you want to push really hard over the next six seven months and drive additional consultation and prepare papers for Minister and and and really driveth through options and make sure a business case is prepared five people ain’t going to cut it but that’s within your gift Mr Bo as the accounting offic the limitations that I within the limitations that I have within within very compressed and tight limitations yes but you you’ve also s Mr M just a brief moment You’ said at the opening uh questions that this was a key priority for your department but I’m not saying how it’s a key priority for your department if you’re not even ensuring that the resources are there to carry forward the work that is expected I I think that’s unfair I’m just I’m just repeating oh no but I do think it’s unfair because the point is I have I have quite a number of priorities which are statut priorities I have a priority to make sure that all the Social Security benefits get delivered properly as well I’ve got a priority to make sure that people come in tax credits over Universal Credit lands properly I’ve got this I’ve got a priority to make sure fraud dealt with property i’ got I can go on is everything a priority Mr Bo I’m ask Mr Bo with respect I’m asking you a direct question this is an important fundamental issue this is in relation to Children right this is in relation to child poverty you’ve said that there’s a priority where in your priority list is it it’s very high on my priority list it’s in my where everything you’ve just listed a number of things it’s in my business plan for this year and I will make sure it gets resourced so that we will deliver on time and can I I I’ve recently resumed responsibility for for the anti-poverty strategy and the social inclusion strategies and in my role I’ve assessed the resources needed for the strategy development which are the key people I have around me the key issue around resource allocation will be coming in the prioritization of the action plan which is actually the fundamental driver of the Strategic aims and in looking at that action plan well that’s where we need the additional resources and it’ll be across government that will need those resources but in terms of the strategy development and to affect colleagues that that have been through the Journey we have also been greatly greatly benefited in that development by our codesign teams and our expert advisory panels and all the information that we have collected in working towards anti-poverty strategy but from a department terms in terms of strategy development we have in line with the normal resources required to develop the strategy the action plan is where we will need to focus thank you m m Jones J M thank you chair thanks very much for coming along today and for the answer so far I think there’s few more important issues that we will deal with and I think by the passion in the room today it’s evident that we’re all on the same page um but you know but it is a hugely emotional topic we talked and and padrick talked um briefly about cber mentality and cross departmental working I know you outline some of the areas I mean there is still a fundamental belief that it’s not working well enough and the cross cutting nature of delivering the child poverty strategy it is integral to this um do you believe there’s a fundamental problem with cross Department working and how do we compare the likes of Scotland for example he should be much more advanced than this Scottish makeups different just in terms of how they actually collaborate and how their departments are set up so each department here set up as a single legal entity and I think you’re you’re always working in a situation whereby you know every department works to where the minister wants to go uh and I think that would be would be a key piece in that um I don’t detect any territory ity from permanent secretaries or from Deputy secretaries across the p in terms of the other people who lead on this I detect a desire to actually achieve the right outcomes and I think there are are things in the models of how we do this that we could apply and I’ll bring you in on that in a second that could make a difference to this and make it easier for us even just in terms of having shared budgets around certain things which which would help so I think there are practical things that could change but for me there’s not a cultural you said to me maybe 5 10 years ago would would things be more deeply wetted to that I’ve seen a difference and I’ve seen a I’ve seen a really good Collegiate way of working and the example par gave I thought I thought was a was was a very good one do you want to add anything to that no no absolutely and I suppose for the Civil Service you know in the times of Crisis what we have learned is that we have to work together and we can now see the benefits probably more clearly and more evidence-based than ever before and I think particularly During the period of covid when we worked both with ourselves more closely but also with our community and volary sector partners and our local government Partners we saw that there was ways to work together that were relatively straightforward and I think there is an education piece for the Departments you know where it does work well let’s talk to each other and share that information and that’s where the people in t review in particular is coming very much to life because all departments own that review and again the report will go to the executive so I think we’re on a journey I wouldn’t say but I said from where we probably were 2016 when these models were first being tested and rolled out we have come a long way and working out what works and what doesn’t work but I’m not sitting here today to say we have solved the issue of cross departmental working there’s more to do just interested in why the Children’s Services cooperation act hasn’t been more widely used to enable the you know the cross um Department to work in um can you tell me what barriers there are and from your point of view are they complying with the important stat requirement of that I think it’s been very very useful in the first instance to have the children’s um cooperation act there um there were a number of Clauses in that which which could be used and looked at more closely and that is something we actually have been doing as part of the work and getting ready for the anti-poverty strategy um I think we need to be careful when we look at legislation that we don’t try and bring in more bureaucracy around it and more Administration and that’s a key lens we’re looking at so what do we already do that works well in a simple and it’s really trying to simplify this as much as possible because with Simplicity comes transparency comes your accountability so we are looking at what has worked well under the act and what else could potentially be used going forward and just finally on this year in terms I prob you bits of this but in terms of the roles and responsibilities of the other departments with you as the lead how often are the key heads of those departments meeting and looking at the strategy collectively and how it can how they they can deliver so I mean we do acknowledge that everyone has a role to play here there’s enough happening in that George was just a we WR the frequency just you referring to the child poverty strategy yes yeah okay well um it transferred across to DFC in 2016 um as did the requirement for us to Monitor and report on the child poverty strategy so one of the key mechanisms was uh the outcome delivery group okay and meetings took place uh over the course of 2016 to 2019 at regular intervals of the outcome delivery group meeting I that that depoint leads would have been present um there was uh a period Then after 2020 where those meetings um didn’t take place but the emphasis shifted then on the development of the anti-poverty strategy and one of the key mechanisms that we put in place was across the departmental working group where lead officials from each department uh met uh regularly with uh DFC and M lead in the development of the antipoverty strategy so throughout the period 16 up until really about 2022 when ministers left office uh there would have been regular meetings across Departments of officials in the lead either in child poverty or more recently in the development of the anti poverty strategy so that’s useful George thank you so just in terms of that cross Department working group how often has it met since the return of this mandate uh it hasn’t met since the return of this mandate but and theer you might have more information on this there there is work in place to bring that back yeah I have no doubt it’s just we’re sort of 5 months in and I would have thought given how we all acknowledge how priority is how high a priority this is and given the massive requirement for cross departmental nature it would have struck me that that might have been something that would have happened in the first five months is that unusual or is is work has been on goinging on on that so we’ve engaged with and we have informal engagement we need to make sure we have the right representatives from the departments on that cross departmental working group at the right seniority and grd and we are working subject to The Minister’s agreement that will be set up really in the next coming months to to make sure that that’s in the right place I think it’s really important that we don’t fall back into what happened in the past that we learn from the lessons that we need people who are decision makers in the Departments that can give the right perspective and advice that when the meetings happen they’re productive and they move things on and I think that’s not in any way to say that the the previous models weren’t doing that but we now have a short window to get an anti-poverty strategy that is right and will make real change and I think taking a couple of months and I know five months signs potentially a very long time from the return of executive but we have worked through everything that we’ve learned to date and we are now at the stage of bringing those recommendations forward to the minister but we need to make sure uh we we don’t want to blunder bust into this again with a scattergun approach and say we have done everything across all these departments and we hope it works we need to give strategic thought and critical thinking now and we need the time with a minister now in place and an executive wri in place to understand what the best lever are I John can I come up like we have to be realistic here John has touched on a very important area you know we have outlined and we’ve heard whel our concerns you’ve explained that this is a priority the body of John hasn’t met the executive has been returned for five months when are they going to meet it’s not about it’s a group of indivi of officials coming with their departmental ministers views and into a collaborative working space where we can all agree with budgets formly to departments now and May and different perspectives Around The Wider landscape we need to bring that all together but in the right way there’s a lot miss melli that we need to do and with respect to you all all I hear is we need to do this we need to do that but I’m hearing nothing about time scales I’m hearing very little around action I’m hearing a lot about priority but not telling us what exactly the priority is or how the objectives are going to be achieved what has been done in relation to this five months since the executives come back this is outrageous I don’t think it’s outrageous at all it is outrageous disrespect no it’s not it I have disc Mr you can’t point to anything that has been really all honesty you can’t point to anything that has been achieved by your department even even John’s question there now there was about a fer Buster and going on and a response to that question it is not acceptable we five months I have discussed this with my permanent secretary colleagues as well um there is it is pointless to try and embark on developing where we go next without the clarity and the clarity of this report and the bearing that this report will have and your the recommendations what how the M will work will have a significant bearing we believe in how we carry this forward so I’ve said that already before there’s no point in marking down a road stopping and reversing back up it and going back down another road long’s the road well I’ve said to you already that will make sure that a paper goes to the executive in this through my Minister when I’ve said it’ll be this financial year and and with the greatest respect if you’ve listened to what I’ve said in terms of the challenges of how we bring all of this together I’m conscious of the challenges Mr Bo you’ve rehearsed them very well I’m ask for it’s going to take us it’s going to take us every minute of that to get that to an executive give us a date to this committee now so we can well I can give you a commitment now unless something very very badly outside of my control and my Minister’s control goes badly wrong I believe we live this we live this uh paper to the executive by the end of March that’s my target that’s what I’m that’s what I have promised my Minister that’s what’s in my business plan that’s what I’m driving to do uh and if you’re asking me with everything else I got to do and with the other thing things that you could easily ask me about which are also priorities I’ve got to manage all of that I’ve got to manage all of that name mons Mr B with your Fells well it’s end of March whatever time is between now and end of March yeah okay John are you contend yeah I just want to take this final point out because obviously we’ve been agreed all of us of the key nature and importance of cross departmental working and you have a lead role to obviously keep track of that so who is currently since the Mandate came back tracking and Reporting back from the other department the responsibilities in the absence of this meeting because you said it’s going to be another couple of months so are we that the work is going on by the relevant departments who need to be doing what they’re doing as part of the strategy so I think it’s really important to different differentiate in terms of time scale the child poverty strategy was extended to the end of 2022 yes we are using now we are bringing the child poverty strategy into an anti-poverty strategy because all of the Lessons Learned indicate that if we don’t tackle The Wider issues we will not lift the children we have to bring everything together and we have spent that time and I I make no excuse for spending the time to look back and learn the lessons and see what worked and what didn’t work and we will now convene in that wider antipoverty group so no longer a child poverty cross departmental group an anti-poverty group to get the right officials with the right grade and the right seniority they can make decisions and give the right advice in that collaborative space it will all be subject to their own ministers discretion and control but we will give the best Collective advice we can as that group of officials in respect of anti-poverty and we are working we are working very closely with departments on that and I do want to say look to Civil Service colleagues there are people on all areas in health inequalities in Justice and anti-poverty we have a lot of cross departmental strategies going as well so we need to make sure that we join those together and we give that communative impact going forward because we have failed to do that thanks thank you John thank you m m uh Diane for safe MLA yeah thank you and thank you colum and the team for your answers so far um just right before this I was in a meeting about um some different groups bit early years and brought as evidence in it were you know just the impact of poverty on early years and some pretty heartbreaking stories and it just is so important that we’ve got this issue here and I’m pleased to be addressing it and column you’ve said a number of times Mr Lions is committed to bringing this strategy forward at peace and I really welcome that and just key to that as um ASR has said as well a few times lessons need to be learned from the you know the previous policy and develop and that’s so the minister has the best um strategy going forward and in terms of that development I want to speak to the data and targets around the strategy that’s reviewed in this report and basically the absence of specific targets um to reduce child poverty and could you explain to the committee why in the previous um strategy no targets were set to reduce child poverty levels in Northern Ireland um that strategy was developed by ofmdfm back in the day uh I’m pretty sure the department for Social Development would have had a representative on that um I can’t recall who that might be um but whenever that strategy was developed and it went to the executive and the executive agreed it after all of the consultation process I went through with all of the organizations that they were working with um I think they were basing on the evidence which they had available at that particular point in time we’re in a very different space now um there was no New Zealand blazing the trail or or Scotland trying to drive this the way they’re driving it so I I think the benchmarks were very very different to that particular stage so this wasn’t our strategy this strategy was handed across to a fledging DFC in 2016 that was getting bits added to it from all over the place and and and was asked to actually land this uh and by the time it it had found its feet the executive was was was was gone in 2017 so um I in terms of our remit and we didn’t really have control over any of that do you think a strategy without any specific targets is a good idea yeah I know in the report you know we have we and I’ll bring George in because George is very close to this I I’m I’m I know this was outcome based accountability last time and and was it well done and I think the comment and as one of the insights I think was very very good when you actually look at some of the examples of lots and lots of lowlevel activities and the query was kind of raised in the report how does how does DFC actually monitor that and report on it there just there’s just so much um and was it Oba well done I don’t think it was Oba Well Done To be honest I don’t think it was as well done as it should have been but we didn’t have the mechanisms or the power to change it um so to go from there into a Target space depends how you feel about the target so you need to be very very clear about how you’re going to base your target you need to be very very clear of what what it is is going to shift you towards that Target you need to be very very clear how much resource you’re going to need to shift you towards that Target so a what you’re going to do and B how you’re going to Resource it so uh and if you do have a Target like Scotland have I think Scotland are going to find it exceptionally challenging to to meet that Target now I don’t mind having targets that can’t be met or might not be met I I love smart targets I love things you can achieve and I think that’s really important and I wouldn’t shy back from that um but that’s not my decision I think whenever we talk you know you were discussing before whether we were going to say reduce or eradicate poverty um you know the question in either of those is there is a need to measure it to see are you going in the right direction whenever you continue to invest and how do you do that without targets I think it’s this is going to down to the attitude of ministers about the extent to which they really want to go after a Target here I I think it’s perfectly feasible for them to want to do that I would have no difficulty with that but I also would understand if they prefer to just use measures and use Milestone markers to see how how well they were doing you want to come in on that yeah um I mean the issue of setting Targets in relation to child poverty um targets would be based on the official poverty measure okay which at the moment uh there’s a number of them there’s relative poverty there’s absolute poverty um both in respect of children uh before and after housing costs and we report on all of that through the poverty and income inequality report that my team publish um some of the reasons we might want to be cautious about setting Targets in relation to child poverty reduction are that those official measures are based on household income okay so a child is uh defined as living in absolute poverty if the household income in the household that they live in in is below 60% of the UK median in 20101 uplifted for inflation they’re said to be in relative poverty if the household they live in has a household income of less than 60% of the UK median in the year in question okay so they’re income based measures if we set targets for the reduction of an incom beused uh official poverty metric what it may do it has the potential to do is to focus activity and intervention on those closest to the poverty line those hous closest to the poverty line the quick wins and it may inadvertently lead potentially to those deepest in poverty being left behind which is not something we would want to see both just the audit office report and the witnesses last night strongly Advocate the need with strategy with targets and I appreciate what you’re saying but they’re the official measures of poverty why can we not have a strategy with other targets that you can set to measure things around poverty rather than just the statutory measures which you’ve outlined there is work ongoing espcially with DWP to develop a new poverty metric it’s called the Blue average resources uh poverty metric uh my team is involved in several working groups in that respect that that measure with a fair wind could potentially be introduced in 2026 um if there’s issues in respect of the questions that need to be asked through the Family Resources survey which is the main survey that we collect poverty data from it could be a year or two later but that below average resources measure won’t focus just on income it’ll be more holistic and it will capture information on outgoings as well uh that households have to to make so um you know there is the potential that we could have a a more holistic uh more appropriate poverty metric introduced quite soon that may uh I suppose mitigate the risk that if we use an income based metric that it focused activity on those closest to the poverty line or simply on income raising measures and interventions at the cost potentially of measures that reduce the cost based to households so there is work ongoing and hopefully will lead to a better poverty met that we can use we we’ want we’d want to tease that answer out pretty quickly in terms of what we would be recommending to our minister so we’re still a few things we want to evaluate but we’ll we’ll get that done quickly absolutely and in part three of the audit office report um there’s commentary from the Department added that targets can provide perverse incentives or unintended unintended consequences what would be the prefers incentives and unintended consequences that you were concerned about by setting Targets in their strategy that’s really what I was saying there in relation to the inadvertent detention uh that would be uh focused on raising incomes potentially the expense of lowering the cost based to households and poverty and the potential that Focus might be uh on those closest to the poverty line rather than households that are deep in poverty so that targets could be met more easily essentially okay and um just you know we’ve had other uh reports come here to Pac and it feels a bit like you’re measuring throughput rather than outcomes base is there any plans ongoing in the department to look at tar targets of the new strategy in terms of outcome base Effectiveness um how it actually touches children’s lives so I think this will be really important when we look again at what key indicators we’re looking at and you know I think that was the original intention behind the child poverty strategy when we got it in 2016 that it was under the outcomes framework and I think we need to be very very clever in in how we design and set this up and that absolutely has to be our goal to achieve the outcomes but to do it in a way that’s Milestone driven and that we can give clear advice to decision makers that this direction of travel is working because we’ve met these following targets and we will achieve this outcome or if it’s not working we need to prioritize we need to have that agility within our framework to say we will now move to a different model or a different way of working and I think you know and I don’t want to go back through through the history of this but I think that inability to flex and prioritize different actions over the rest has impeded the outcome delivery that we want so I think that’s where the collective View and the understanding of all everyone working in this space not just our department needs to be brought together and we need to get that Collective Insight we have we have an open mind on this as to how we tackle it yeah that’s great to hear I’m just looking at the final question for me looking at the annual reports on the child poverty strategy you know you set out how many programs were delivered how many children took part but just again you know how are you measuring the effectiveness of these actions and their very genuine impact on children in poverty I don’t I well you come in a second I don’t think we’ve done that well enough I acknowledge I don’t think we’ve done that well enough I think there are I think we could have been better with this I think we could have been better getting at the cumulative impact of it all and I don’t think we’ve we’ve we’ve caught that just right so and that for me is one of the biggest lessons that I’m seeing just in terms of reading back on the audit report and watching some of the things that we’ve done uh may have a different take on that from more more purist perspective but I from from my angle i’ I’d want to address that yeah but I think we’re also you know we’re looking to the delivering social change programs as well which were very specifically targeted on ear years’s intervention in particular you know after school provision for children The Wider support from the child’s journey and I think we can see those interventions that did improve outcomes and I think that’s where we now need in Our advice to ministers really to say this is the potential to shift the curve thank you thanks chair thank you Diane uh John sh yeah yeah chair and thanks for that just to follow on from dian’s point and it’s in terms of the impact of the actions of the child poverty strategy I think what I took out you was that you weren’t overly content with um how the data had been analyzed and reported back in terms of the outputs of that is that what you said I think what I’m saying is I think the there is too much noise in there in terms of a lot of activity and not enough in terms of labored outcome okay terms of that how do you propose or get to a point where you can concentrate that data down to impact positively the future strategies in order to tackle this because that data is essential well I think the audit office report is very clear I think we need to Cluster in we need to come in in a set of clusters of key things that are going to make a difference in moving that dial we can’t keep reporting in absolutely everything that’s going on we need to actually look at it through different lands and also we need to let every Minister look at it through their own lands as well so I think there’s an issue for there’s got to be something in this for for example the health minister to see it from the way they need to see it and the education Minister from the way they need to see it but also we need to see it in the r for the child as well so I think there’s a there’s a there’s a a two-way approach we have to try try and get with this as well so it’s it’s quite difficult to do that um the report highlights time lags and deficits in the data collected Witnesses last week spoke of the limitations in the survey data what is your department doing to improve the timeliness and quality of the poverty data you’ve asked a really difficult one there because we have very very limited power in terms of in terms of deal this I’ll let George take that one because it’s lit FS is the main thing so so we collect our poverty data through a survey called The Family Resources survey okay uh it’s what’s called a continuous household survey so it runs throughout the course of the Year up to the end of March in any given year okay so at the end of March uh the results of that survey all the information that’s collected and this is based on door-to-door household surveys that last a few hours so very very detailed in terms of the data they gather from different households the end of March it’s sent across the DWP Who oversee the Family Resources survey across the entirety of the UK once it arrives with them at the end of March they have to go through a process of validating the data they need to equalize the income they need to look at quality assurance issues that takes time to get that right because these are official statistics Publications um so they send the data back to us uh around February the following year so if you take the end of March 2023 as as a point that we sent the data across they send it back in February 2024 my team then spend the next month taking all of that information and working at PACE to put that into the form of the poverty and income inequality report and this year it was published at the end of March so in terms of using the family resources survey and making sure that what data is published is statistically robust and has been subject to proper quality assurance it really is not possible to do that in a shorter time frame now you might have heard reference to use of administrative data um by that most people refer to information it’s gathered through hmrc through tax returns the way the tax year ends in April in the given year tax returns aren’t due for that year until online end of January the the following year the consequences ultimately administrative data wouldn’t be available for use to inform the development of a poverty strategy for 12 to 18 months after it’s actually collected either so really those who refer to the time lags and and issues regarding the timeliness of data if we’re going to use robust information um if it’s going to be subject to proper quality assurance and controls it’s really not possible to get it any quicker so for example that report that was public at the end of March this year that data is up to the end of March 2023 and that’s really about as quick as it as it gets and as a department and DEP officials are you content with that process for the collection of data or would you like to see it done differently I mean in an ideal words you would have live data you know um something we want to strive towards to tackle this properly in order for that data to be Reger rigers and robust and to be able to place Reliance on it does need to go through the process of being checked and equivalent inv validated so it’s just not possible to get it any quicker um what have capacity to do okay and are we content with the information well it is robust and it is an official statistic and so we place Reliance on it yeah okay thank you CH okay John thank you Colin gild you mul he G CH and just to make it clear that I am also chair of the communities committee ulation and and I do want to bring you back to um you had previously uh at the at the communities told me in response to to one of my first questions around the antipoverty strategy that you expected it was months away at that point in time I know that created a lot of despondency in the sector given that this was a strategy which was drafted a significant amount of work had been done by the panels um and what I’m afraid now is that this session today actually will lead to further disper in terms of the time frame of that so when you give me that answer permanent secretary was it in your business plan at that stage that it was going to be actually more than a year away or has that slipped since we spoke on uh no we’ve had a we’ve had a eyeball all of the timelines we had to right across everything we’re doing in the department based on the availability of resource that we actually have so um there’s been a a bit of a slip probably in a number of things um but we were aiming for January here if I’m honest to try and read it down by January to the executive but I I worry about sitting here and said we’ll definitely get it there for January I think it’s more likely to be March so I need to give a we bit of comfort to the team to cuz I think there can be issues in terms of some of the consultation could be more tricky or more difficult or the executive might want to take longer on it or the minister might want to take longer on it so we need to build in a bit of time scale and some all all those things might happen my concern is this if the department for communities do not champion and prioritizing the strategy and you’ve told us in this session that it is one of your top priorities M so I don’t know how that slipped as as part of priorities if it slipped as a result of resorption and I thought I thought we had heard earlier that there was sufficient resource in there to do the to do the job so all of the problems you had learned earlier around getting other departments to buy in and your ability or lack of ability as you highlighted to do that none of that matters until there’s a strategy to hold them account for the issue of resourcing the strategy none of that matters how how do we know what resources we need if we don’t have a strategy um measured out so that the Finance Minister can go and seek additional resources or whatever May or the executive can do that so the strategy is the starting point and that’s why I’m hugely concerned at this H continued slippage of delivering we’ll we’ll hit the resourcing questions in terms of the right time of the year so we know late November December we need to have an idea for the year ahead what it is we’re going to need and I think we’ be on target to do that but did you not just tell me that that the timing of the strategy has slipped as a result of not having resource to what I’m saying to you is I want to build an extra regular room so I can make sure I deliver it in this financial year so ideally I’d like to have it done by January but I’m saying to it might take me to March yeah and I I think just to add while we lead on on the development of the strategy it reflects the contributions of all the Departments and those departments just to your point you know come under the championship of department for communities and we are absolutely in that space but they then need to come with their ministers in matter to that input that they are putting in and signing up to so it’s in the picture that we have and with the budgets that have just you know been formally put out the start of April and I think when we first engaged it was prior to that position we now need let to let the Departments as well settle and see where they are and bring it forward and we also need you know under the leadership and we do have a prioritized leadership around antipoverty in particular in the department we do have a very very key role in our colleagues with us and making sure that that happens but it is happening see I have to say I think I think it jars with people when you say you know letting letting things settle this is a priority people are really struggling out there in real time they’re looking to this assembly on the executive to bring forward these measures in the cost of living crisis and you have mentioned that permanent secretary so it needs to be an absolute priority driven by the department for communities and I’m concerned you you mentioned column about not turning that dial not turning the dial on on child poverty I’m concerned that we’re seeing to dial down the expectations and I don’t think we can allow that to happen and I think we absolutely must ensure that it’s it’s driven through into the executive into a program for government as urgently as possible no difficulty with that um other than to say um if we’re to be honest about the constraints we’re facing is not dialing back on the ambition but what I don’t know yet is what the ambition is across the executive I don’t know how individual ministers will respond to this and I’m not sure to what extent they’ll say actually based on the content of this particular strategy we are prepared to make x amount of money available to put into child poverty next year and as a consequence of doing that as a consequence of doing that we might put a little bit less into something else or until we have a strategy no one’s at that point that’s made difficult yeah and my job is to make sure as an accounting officer that what I put before Gordon lions and what he then put put in puts in front of uh the executive that it’s solid that it’s evidence-based and it’s based on something which is Affordable and something which is sustainable and something which was going to be effective as well so all of those factors are are are things that I’ve got to consider because if I hit something if I put something to to the minister Minister says I can’t go with that it’s not just there just nothing in there or it’s not what I want it’s not what I want to see I’ve got to make sure that I tick those boxes and he’s been very explicit in terms of what he wants and he’s right to be explicit about what he wants so it’s very very clear he wants to make sure he does not have a strategy that sits on a shelf and Galls dust he wants something that’s going to impact on people’s lives okay in that regard the report highlights the benefits of prevention and early intervention initiatives in ensuring fewer children experience poverty and go on to become poorer adults as well but it says that these kinds of interventions are often the force to be cut when budgets are constrained how important in your opinion is prevention and early intervention in tackling poverty and did the strategy focus sufficiently on that uh I think the strategy was always going to probably suffer from a point of view whenever things get tight the areas of work that are most discretionary are the first ones to go whenever Cuts get applied um so I think that would always be a factor um and I don’t think based on the configuration of how it was set up that probably enough was done in relation to developing the prevention strategies so I think for me that’s another key area that that there’s a there’s there’s a lesson in there just want to draw colleagues in if they want to add anything to that I think the evidence would point that addressing child poverty has to start as soon as the child even before the child is born prenatal you know and it’s the health and of the mother and the family that that child has been born into and that is well evidenced based and well prioritized and suppose I didn’t make my point probably as as clearly as I I should have earlier you know so the Department of Health and their schemes around that pre window care for the child health visitors support for the young mother bringing the children through and the Department of Education with its children and young people strategy and the opportunities under the children’s cooperation act are all in play here and that is where we need to give the best advice as to the impact of the intervention and where it will change the curve and that is why we do have lists of things we know we can do and you know we what will be included as as a priority within the new strategy subject to the views of ministers and and the executive and the funding available but you know we also have evidence that older people in poverty are also at more risk of going into hospital and needing end of Life Care Etc so there’s a gamut around this wide societal issue and we need to keep you know Children at Risk of potentially falling into you know the justice system and I do I do I do absolutely agree with that although we are focusing on on child poverty today but I do absolutely agree with that we need to address all of those issues as as priorities looking to the anti-poverty strategy development um and involving those which I spoke to you as well in in the first meeting with you Mr Bo H speaking with those with lived experience seems to be key to getting it right I think across a range of areas what efforts have you made to involve children specifically and their families in designing the new strategy and its outcomes talk about the Cod design process okay um one of the mechanisms that we put in place back in 2020 to gather the evidence that we need to develop an anti-poverty strategy was to establish the co design groups which tra Canan who appeared here last week was co-chair of um that codesign group for the antipoverty strategy comprised of over 20 uh organizations that represent those living in poverty okay the advice that we got was that direct engagement with those in poverty might have been intimidating to those in poverty so it was done through the codesign group say I find that bit patronizing I don’t think anybody in poverty is one bit afraid of in fact I think they would welcome engagement with yourselves and any other and un Lo children did you speak to any children and it would have been done through the codesign group they were there to feed us with the information we needed to make informed choices as to what to put before a minister in terms of contct how many children were engaged with as a result of the for that here today can you get that for us so I think we’ll need to go back to the executive office when they designed the strategy and who they engaged with I know at the time the children’s commissioner was a key partner in the design of that strategy but we will look to our partners and too and see if the informations there I do think the points that have been made and were made in previous evidence sessions as well are valid and you know going forward we are very very willing to listen to all the views of everyone involved in this and where they’re affected in the best way for them and we will always take advice on that but for people and children in particular that feel able and want to come forward you know we’re very very open to that and I think you know we across the department we engage face to face with people facing real difficulties every day through every area of our business I wouldn’t want to give the impression here column that that this department and this officials are somehow stand offish from people with lived to experience oppos it’s the case um P you want to talk a we bit about that because there’s a load of stuff we do here that that’s right in the go all all the time well the very thing that we do every day is deliver um Social Security benefits to to people right across Northern Ireland so if you look just know I don’t want to go off into it I want to specifically focus on this inquiry and this this area so I I don’t want to drag out too much okay so my point is it’s in our DNA to want to go face to face and want to get close and we’ve done a lot of that and we will on terms of the anti-poverty strategy we will be doing just that I’m glad yeah okay and just to follow up on uh a number of points there the codesign group members of it were before us last we give a fantastic evidence session when’s the last time you engaged with that the codesign group I’ve never met the codesign group has there been any engagement from the Department with the Cod Design Group since the assembly returned uh no there hasn’t no why not um the last uh meeting with the codesign group was under the previous mandate um met with Minister hary and at that point uh substantive development on the strategy uh paused um we had a draft put before Minister hary and the engagement with the codesign group had delivered at that point what we had expected it to do the last mandate is in two years ago well it was the the last meeting that we would have had with the codesign group was I think September October 2022 Mr Samson this is a priority for the department so I have despite from my understanding given them solid evidence to this committee last week the codesign group have attempted on a number of occasions to reach out and engage with yourselves and haven’t been responded to so I think the structure of our engagement going forward will both have a clear role for engagement with the codesign group and the stakeholders I know they had written to the minister um and Minister will give his view that he wasn’t yet in a position to meet and I think that’s incompetent on n and officials that we get that advice and and and look to that but I we haven’t formally engaged formally on the codesign I suppose we’ve we’ve had such a wealth of expertise and evidence from the codesign group and we have used that in our lessons learned and in considering our way forward so it’s not to say that we’re not working on it but we we do have to engage with respect as Mr Samson rightly pointed out the last engagement with the c Design Group was two years ago two years ago but this is a priority for the Department the minister has been in place for 5 months but this is a priority for the department but despite efforts despite being written to no engagement with the codesign group who us are heavily relying on in terms of their experiences evidence and submissions in two years is that acceptable so the position we are in now we had the codesign reports we have the expert advisory panel reports we are looking to understand what that means we are engaging across our colleagues in government to understand what is actually feasible in this space What can we recommend what will the best evidence be when we are in a position to revert back on an executive strategy this is not the Department’s own strategy we will two years two years Mr Mr yel you points to very important questions about who you really are engaging with and it’ll lead to further questions no doubt from the committee in that regard because they’re clearly has been very little engagement in two years since the last mandate and since the reestablishment of this uh executive 5 months ago well I think in terms of taking forward an anti poerty strategy um let’s be clear I wouldn’t have the power as a permanent secretary or the group of permanent secretaries to bring forward a new antipoverty strategy and no no one’s suggesting you are no but I would suggest that very little has been done to ensure that it is a priority by the department even on the desk of the minister from what I can see anyway today everything we will do we are going to do we will get it done nothing is done nothing has been delivered in a timely fashion time frames are questionable targets are absent it’s a shambles to be honest with you I think time scales are there targets for delivery are there there’s nothing shambolic about this well in relation to the time skilles Mr boy just pointing back to a point that you had made it’ll be March before the strategy comes to the minister is that right no no it be Mar the the executive will have in March by March yeah okay well budget for 25 26 will already be set by that stage so does that mean then that this the implementation of this strategy in terms of attaining the finance that is necessary to implement it won’t take place the following year because the budget will so what I also said to your colleague there was in in November this year we we will want to be in a position whereby we live an eye on what sort of money we would be needing to do the sort of things will’ll be in the strategy for next year the executive is not getting sight to the strategy until March May there may well be consultation with the the executive members before that may well will be which isn’t so I think it’s really important to understand the process that we are engaged in and if it is an incorrect process we will step back but this is an executive Le strategy where we engage closely with departmental colleagues and they need to be the departmental colleagues that are in the right right departmental colleagues are antipoverty action plans will be delivered underneath the strategy but they need to be grounded and departments need to be content with what is going forward so and Department for Community we can bring forward the actions we want through our Minister and what we believe will contribute other departments need to do that too for their ministers to be content and for the executive then to have a view so I think we have a process we followed to date it’s given us a lot of evidence a lot of great work we’ve had a really engaged stakeholder involvement and I know two years from the formal that does not mean to say that we’ stepped back and not engaged in any of this but going forward what happened since that but going forward there there’s very little use in bringing forward a strategy if we don’t have an action plan with it to be honest and look that’s the key fundamental criticisms and lessons learned that we’re learning everywhere here and that action plan and how it is T got targets and what it delivers but that does take the agreement of everyone in the cross departmental and then to the executive in the collaborative working space so we could you if if the legislation did not require a cost cutting strategy the department for communities could bring forward its interventions its actions but in isolation it will not Target this issue I’m confused so I understand what you’re saying the department for communities will have certain H measures that it can take to address poverty such as some of some of the things we have mentioned mitigations and and but you are also responsible for developing and leading on the strategy itself which will include Health yes are you struggling with that part of the role yeah I I don’t no we’re not struggling at all I think I think what we want to do is we want to be clear about what our proposition is with departments we want to be clear what their propositions are and we want to fuse the two things together and but with the greatest respect I wanted to be clear what come out of this today as well and I want my minister to be clear about it I think the challenge that the executive will find this very challenging because of the executive signed up to a strategy which as ambitious as what the sector wants what the sectors want I’ll be I it’ll be a really tough one in terms of being able to Resource that because the sums of money are high watering so you saying it’s unworkable undeliverable I’m saying it’s no I’m saying it’s exceptionally challenging like you’re saying it’s undeliverable no no I’m not you’ll put words in my mouth please I’m saying it’s exceptionally challenging I didn’t say it’s not workable it’s worked in other places but in other places they’ve introduced other fiscal powers to make that happen yeah so I understand the sector actors will rightly be demanding you know and and will be seeking to hold us all to account to deliver the maximum but what everyone really wants to see is progress they really want to see a strategy in place they want to see the building blocks of that strategy being pulled together by someone and being driven forward and I think that’s the part of it that I’m not getting a strong sense that that uh that you know almost that you’re you’re having to do so much work engaging with with all the other elements of it that getting it pulled together and up and running is a significant challenge this is column this is tough and this is tough because there are so sorry for the children and those impacted I absolutely get that I absolutely get that that’s the first thing I talked about when I come through the door absolutely get that so I I’m not I’m not knocking this down the road I want to make sure I could give the executive a piece of paper all right I can give them a nice fancy strategy with like lovely church and all the rest of it and they could say what the what’s this what’s this going to do but what I want to give is I want to give them something with proper evidence proper costs proper options that’s going to impact on the child is what I want to give them and I will give them that I wanted to impact on children today Mr boy not a child was born today that’ll be 10 the time is delivered with respect well I think that’s a bit unfair it’s not unfair we’re eight years since a child let’s be fair about this Mr Bo if you want to talk fairness what about the children that are impacted as a result of the constant delays in the lack of delivery around the Reg strategy that has been sitting Gathering dust to use your own words earlier for the last 8 years what about fairness there people are struggling we’re hearing it every day in our communities and your department the lead Department responsible for that strategy and with respect to you and colleagues all I can see is failure in relation to it well I think your assessment of that is way off beam because I think people are struggling because of many issues in terms of strategy just not just stry the strategy will not be lifechanging for people in itself it will require lots of other things to happen with it but nothing’s happening at the minute with respect well what’s happening is we’re trying to put vations in to get it right that’s what we’re there’ll be as will not even get unit uh colum are you okay now yeah okay okay Cher thank you shair and I really appreciate um your answer so far I know this is a very emotive and a difficult subject but I just want to touch on we’ve spoke about it um about the codesign process you know um and and this this is difficult to talk about um people put a lot of time a lot of effort into the whole process um I suppose I just want to ask you honestly in terms of the codesign process you know what do you feel went well and what do you feel that could have been done better okay I personally wasn’t here when that was being done so I wasn’t personally involved in it um I can give you a view you were involved in this what was your sense my sense was that there was good participation there was a great interest from the sector we got lots of really really useful information we ultimately got a position paper from them um lots of really really good input we couldn’t have developed the draft that we put before Minister hary without the codesign group and without the time and the effort and the commitment that they provided to us okay what I think could have worked better um there’s a number of areas I think uh providing uh a clearer understanding and expectation of what code design process meant and involved at the outset I think it’s something we could have done better um I think ultimately you know you have heard last week from one of the Cod Design Group members the uh co-chair um perhaps keeping them up to date over the last while in terms of what we were doing within the department so that whenever we come to revisit engagement with them they know where we’re at with things um but ultimately we find it as a department Department to be an absolutely instrumental component in the development of the draft that we we put before Minister hary couldn’t have done it without yeah so just in terms of that and it is you know the the voling community sector we know from even our last inquiry how fundamental and how important that they are in delivering for services um from the audit office report you can see that there has been obviously I suppose you could say a lack of trust now that they may feel that they don’t want to engage further because suppose is it a waste of their time for what they have done and what they’ve engaged in the the previous process um they talked about and as calling theed to about not feeling that lived experience was included so that that’s within the report um you know that and the the fractured relationship so how can how do you believe obviously as a department moving forward that that can be repaired um we’ve had a good relationship with for Community sector generally uh for many many years codesign work that we’ve done has typically on very very well there’s been a bit of an operation with this if I’m honest and I think the the passion that was talked about there a few seconds ago by yourself I think it’s a big big factor in this and I think people with lived experience are really want an outcome right as quickly as they can get it and they want the particular right come as quickly as they can get it and and I think there’s a very strong belief that on the ground they know the answer to this and why are we taking so damn long over it and we have a different bar that we’ve got to fill with economists and business plans and business cases to get this over the line so that somebody will not be sitting in in Daniel’s seat in 5 years times and what do you spend money on that for so we got to make sure we stand this up and the bar that we’ve got to the bar that we have got to meet in terms of doing that is a high bar and if we that up and make a mess of that I’m sure our colleagues in the audit office would have something to say about it so I think that for me is another dimension to that so but the lived experience is absolutely vital and that sits alongside all of the other research and all of the other evidence base and all of the things that need to be done and we give that equal waiting in terms of of of how we do that do you want to add so I think that’s been the key lesson learned to be honest the lived experience and the model that was adopted through the advice and working with with the sectors we took that advice but we didn’t go to the people with the lived experience um and have having that funneled to us through organizations maybe well we know now from the feedback it hasn’t been correct so we now need to find a safe way for those individuals to come forward and give give their story and give their views and I appreciate the thought reog I because and as you say it’s two different perspectives your bar is different to somebody else’s and I do get that but that lived experience and understand and where the the barriers are and I know the barriers are child care or the barriers are employment we all know that but but what are the actual barriers is it the fact that Universal Credit is a nightmare or you’re having to update everything a month you know every month or is it the fact you know in terms of rent you know what is the actual kind of small barriers to a person we know there are the big massive barriers in terms of the big headed titles but what is those small steps that are actually causing people to not be able to move further and I think it’s that lived experience that you really do need to understand to integrate into the strategy you know but I do appreciate we’re coming from we might have done it well enough in this particular piece but I’m just going back to py again py I know that we have loads of other examples where we where we have done it and done it exceptionally well and it’s on our DNA to do it very well uh and I have a direct feedback from vul Community sector to tell me that and I have a direct feedback from people in neighborhood renewal organizations to tell me that as well so just in terms of I was reading the statistics there about pensioners in poverty and how that has been handled well is there areas of best practice that you can take from that to then integrate within the strategy absolutely every day is a school day so we can certainly apply uh apply perspectives in terms of how how that’s been done there’s no doubt about it and has that been investigated or looked at so far to this stage yeah so and and that’s part of the key work that we have been doing that we have been progressing the various stages and you know to reflect I suppose the child poverty strategy was a standalone child poverty strategy a decision was taken to bring it into the wider anti-poverty which has ultimately expanded that hand landscape if a different model is to continue to focus on a child poverty strategy you you know that’s that’s a different model for decision makers to take um and maybe in that space you know we talking about Bing off all the different aspects I suppose The Wider benefits of of the umbrella of the anti-poverty strategy it it brings everybody in society under it but in terms of resources capacity and priority that’s for other people to decide but that’s where we are at the moment and last one just in terms of the um codesign grip and the documentation that they provided you you know what has been done with that what has anything been implemented has anything been taken from that you know what has their work achieved today from within the department you FedEd through into the strategy document okay so that was an instrumental component in terms of what f it way into the draft anti-poverty strategy that we put before Minister hary um but uh before we pulled that draft together and put it before the minister we had um independently facilitated um cross departmental working group codesign group joint session where there was a really in-depth useful discussion where the codesign group members got to meet was online with cross or the different senior officials from the different departments um and the uh report that they had produced was discussed at that to help develop a range of um content for the antipoverty strategy yeah so are they able to see what work they have done are they able to see an outcome to that have they seen any of that yet no one as TR said last last week they haven’t seen it um but the be do not have the authority to share that it’s an executive strategy the the previous Minister who reviewed that draft we didn’t get authority to share it more widely and that includes with the anger you can understand where that yes I’m it I’m it I suppose in terms of tangible actions and what has happened you know the codesign work and the expert advisory panels work so around Child Care provision which is you know so the executive has moved on that they’ve also moved on living wage now I know real living wages is the ultimate ask but you know the executive is a recognized living wage employer so there’s various elements that are proceeding under the different departments to you know in different areas especially under the children and young people strategy work in De and that’s where we need to make sure that we’re capturing all of that in in the round and what we do and I know that is leading to the frustration of delay and where where we come from but we need to make sure when we bring this model forward it is robust and it does reflect views and people can see where they fit in it and I think even from the discussion today you know it’s obviously the key stakeholders of children in particular you know key now that we need to engage and with that living experience expence M yeah thank you chair um and I just wanted to draw out on um the point there that um Cheryl was making um you’ve all referred to you know the development of this strategy and Co codesign has happened but just to go back to that point whenever you you’re reading the audit office report it’s really really damning of how that codesign process went and I appreciate you know there’s been a change of officials since that but if you know as an executive requirement there’s codesign you’re talking about going forward as a codesign has happened in the past but actually what we’ve heard from our evidence what the audit office report has said is it broke down so much that the um the groups involved went straight to the minister and had to bypass officials um do you feel that there needs to be a step to go back to revisit this because I feel from the tone of the responses here know the box is Tech codesign has happened you’re moving forward whereas actually the evidence given to us last week and this report show us that codesign didn’t happen well reconnect it has to happen here but also we have taken an independent review of the codesign process that was engaged with an applied lessons have come out of that and especially around the parameters and roles and responsibilities within codesign and as suppose expectations of everyone that’s coming into that field and that will be now in refreshed updated codesign guidance when I said at the start that this model was Innovative at time in 2016 it was a model of strategic development founded on codesign and I think you know and I I know I I’m hking back a lot on Lessons Learned but this is key and especially on the codesign methodology because if they get this right it can be shared across government and used as a fundamental tool going forward especially to drive cross cutting it’s the rebuilding of those relationships is a critical sector in terms of child poverty the anti-poverty strategy and really just from our evidence last week I’ve just really concerned that you know the damage to relationships there and just wanted to dra that point we’re very to it and and I believe we can we can remedy that thank you Dan David honey for thank you for coming in my questions have all been kind of answered now but uh uh so I suppose one of the concerns I would have and we’re talking about a codesign um process but one of the evidence last week they actually said that they don’t feel there is code design so the voluntary Community Center said there actual words and I could look it up but it was along if I’m paraphrasing paraphrase it wrong but it was there was no codesign cuz I couldn’t tell you a single word if it’s in a report that I was supposed to codesign or some some phrase of that term so how is that the case it’s the case in terms of who owns the information in the uh executive paper look we need to fix that this we know we need to fix this and we need to play this a different way and we know we’ll engage with our Minister about how we actually do that so he’s it’s key he it’s key that he’s involved because this is going to come down to decisions at the end of the day in terms of what goes into that final paper so you can co-design this right through to a certain point but at the end of the day a minister makes a decision about what he or she’s prepared to put through to the executive yeah yeah sure so so so it’s it’s managing the expectations around that and and I think that maybe was something that hasn’t worked properly last time out and I we got to be really revisit those terms of reference and really refresh all of this so that people do understand what the various roles and the remits are a couple couple other things one of one of the other things that stood out for me last week it was reading was reading report one of the by the age by the time they go to by the time a child in poverty goes to school they 25% behind so they’re effectively a year behind or 25% of their life but the age of four so you’ve created a gap at that age and how do you how do you ever kind of recover that yet we’re not listening to the child and that was one of the other things that came out we haven’t actually involved the child in the strategy and is there is there any learning that we can actually hear the voice of the child in this process if we’re taken from now to January to or March where you know you’re and appreciation say that how we how we can listen to the child that is in that circumstance yeah we look bear mind this is an anti-poverty strategy we we’re taking forward so wider but absolutely I’m very open to making sure that we have lived experience having a direct role in this straight with us so do you want to do you want to come in I think you know moving forward we need to look at ways in which we can do that um but in terms of the process that we used to develop that draft strategy that we prepared for 2022 um again I point back to the composition of the codesign group you know it was co-chaired by tra from ardos um and we we did rely through that process on getting the views of children and all sections of society experience in poverty through that engagement with the codesign group members however moving forward as cones alluded to there will be improvements made to the process that that better engages directly I understand you’re saying that you want to do that but what I’m trying to get is that that actually happens because the same person told us last week that that didn’t happen and it was part of the problem so if if that’s the problem we we don’t need we need to look at it we need it to happen we need the the the voice of that child to be heard and that’s really really important and you thank you for bringing that onto the Horizon I suppose First Step will be engaging with the children’s commissioner and taking his advice and how to engage with children in the safest way for them to let them tell their story but also for other vulnerable groups so we need to go with the older persons commissioner too and other other experts that do this day and daily so that we can hear that voice and I think the point was really really well made earlier that you know the child is going to school and falling behind an educational attainment but maybe hasn’t had his breakfast and you know yeah and I appreciate that and I sit in the economy committee and part of this is jobs and part of this is Raising salaries and part of this is right across all the board just the final bit just just taking up the phone off from Dan and talk that these group the groups of bernardos of and the voluntary Community sector these are the guys that are going to actually deliver strategy is one thing to have and I agree with you we need to have something that’s actionable and we actually I feel in this place I’m not just talking about this we’ve got lots of strategies and we think that’s the end goal where instead of that’s the starting line and and the starting line needs to be achievable but they achieve it we’re going to need those volunteering Community groups to deliver a lot of this uh but how do you repair how does that happen how do we repair the relationships because obviously from what we heard last week There’s a breakdown massive breakdown in relationship there how do we repair that they guys feel enthused to be able to deliver the the strategy on behalf of all of us here look um for me there are some different players involved and our side um and I think there’s a different um approach different Minister all Al lot of things are different so we’ve got the feedback uh we read the feedback we had the convers appreciation of the audit office we know that there are things in here we need to fix we know we’re not perfect we know everything hasn’t worked properly so we will seek we’ll reach out we’ll seek to reconnect we’ll seek to involve and engage in the way the IM described so all we can do is our very best to achieve that and I think when people see us reaching out and wanting to genuinely engage I think over time it’ll repair and I think you know even in behind that we’ve already we’re working very very closely with community and voluntary sector through the joint communic to understand the shared objectives you know everyone here has the child at its heart you know we all want we all want them we’re all frustrated um but working together with that ultimate outcome we we will achieve it I think we need to be fair to our voling community sector Partners to in terms of the bureaucracy that engagement with government and the pressure puts on them too and make it as easy as possible to do that going forward I think that’s a key issue that we need to look through the codesign and I think to the people in place review we’re getting quite a lot of innovative ways of doing that and different ways of working so I think as well as on a personal and professional basis the processes need to support that as well and we also need to seek the permissions from the executive earlier to share the information just finally and I don’t you said you’ve talked to col a couple of times about your DNA doubt you before when I was around communities and I have no question no question in that at all and I don’t mean in any way to to to because I think everybody in the room wants to see progress on this and I’m moving I understand the frustrations and but I and and moving this forward but it it it’s just that needs to H that relationship building needs to happen happen sooner rather than later and it needs to happen as a matter of urgency that that those groups right the wide range no we understand that we pick pick it part of this and they do and they are they’re a key player here and we need their expertise in the fields um it can’t be government and community in voluntary we need this to be a real partnership to be able to to to deliver you know and that’s it’s absolutely key to to moving forward there a is a there always in this going to be a very very tough challenge um about management of expectations as well in terms of where this ends up so I know you were saying about when I was a committee and how dashed people felt because of the time we wanted to take and we wanted to take that time for a very good reason to get it to get it right so it is right first we just need to make sure that we bring people on S side with quickly I I together but when we get to the point of decision making and if people don’t like the look of what of of what the decisions are because ministers going to make decision and executiv going to make a decision so that’s the risk we’ll run that risk right through here so I I think there needs to be a clear sense of we can go the full nine yards in this but people may not get everything that that they want that’s that’s that’s that’s the issue thank you David col gild yeah and I think we don’t want to allow the perfect to become the enemy of the good and people do need to see progress and they need to see something happen they need to see late at the end of the tunnel that’s one thing co-production and co- design should not be viewed as an event within the process it should be an integral and an ongoing part of the process and we’ve heard similar things from disability sector as well so I think that’s something the department on a broader on a broader scope need to consider and and work on my last one hopefully is a reasonably uh straightforward question um given given the time but just the child property strategy is now two years from that has ended what has been done to review its successes its limitations potentially and what would you say are the one or two biggest things or most important things that you have learned from that you a review well well I suppose yes we we’ve done the normal PP assessments and the business case reviews I think that the fundamental lens that the audit office have brought to this has been really really helpful and I think the Lessons Learned around you know the right model for cross cutting work is very very important and also having the flexibility and Agility and a strategy and with the action plans that can move as other issues emerge and allow more responsive government because this you know we don’t want children born now not having a hopeful future and well-being at the heart of what they do and happiness so I think those are the key lessons we’ve learned also Target Focus I think we can’t just consolidate what everyone’s doing for a child into one place without it being pulled together you know in a in a more focused way I think the the Lessons Learned From Me column are um broad brush won’t work here and that’s where the previous one was I think capacity to deliver from departments in terms of adding stuff on to what they’re currently doing isn’t isn’t good enough you need to Resource it and be honest about resourcing it you’re either going to do it or you’re not going to do it and keep Partners on board not just until you think that bit’s done but right through to the end so those are the the four takeaways for me thank you and thank you I just have a final questions in respect um of the links between interventions and outcomes and they’re CED at paragraph 310 you refer to the low participation levels and some uh of the interventions citing specifically cycling proficiency as an example U so can you explain how column um this is considered an effective intervention for children in poverty given it in order to participate they require a bicycle and indeed safety equipment therefore there’s a barrier to those children in poverty in accessing this the scheme it’s also noted that these tend to be Universal schemes rather than targeted towards children in poverty is this not misrepresenting the support being provided by dressing up universally offered schemes as anti-poverty measures I think that’s the point I was making earlier on Daniel when I was talking about um too many things going in there business as usual stuff going in there and too much noise being in there so I think the value of what should be in there versus what was in there wasn’t right uh and uh it for me it needs to be slimmed down a lot more targeted and then understanding as I say what are the four five six 10 things that you know if you invest in that are going to turn that downal and turn it most quickly and with the great as well in the world cycling proficiency isn’t necessarily going to do that I know safety was one of the things that that’s in there but this for me that I mean I read it as well that I wasn’t there at the time but I’m looking at it now I’m thinking what it doesn’t really compute for me either so I think there’s a there’s clear lessons in there but making sure that what’s in there by way of interventions is their most crucial their most crucial not to flesh something out but so I don’t really know the background of why it was in there but it’s there and it wasn’t for us to take it out either so we couldn’t really tamper with it for the reasons I gave you at the at the outset but the next one that we design has got to be right on the in terms of the big stuff that makes a difference thank you okay members thank you permanent secretary thank you m melli Mr Samson and um Mr Rene we do appreciate you taking our questions I know it was a fairly hated exchange at times but all the same a very important area to the people that we represent right across Northern Ireland uh and uh we look forward to engaging with you um in the future as well um is it CN AG any okay thank you you very much thank you the kids I was reading there this room I know it’s warm as War as the last no it’s true yeah so we’re now go on to close session members thank you committee room 21 sign [Music]