Segona ponència del cicle acadèmic Domènech i Europa, a càrrec de Raül Garrigasait, filòleg i editor de la Fundació Bernat Metge, i Maria Garganté, Historiadora de l’Art de la UAB.
good afternoon, we are going to continue with the cycle that we started this morning, this afternoon we are also lucky enough to have the presence of Maria Garganta this morning . that and from this a certain goal is to get closer to Domenec’s personality and to make him do what we believe he practiced a lot, which was this transversality, this relationship between things, and also this morning we said that in this case eh vostro del rul and tu maria an entry was produced with a level eh let’s say more philosophical or more mental or more general than in the most objective cases let’s say domain as an architect or even as a historian ooo hint no publicist then we had tried to introduce these subjects a little more from a broad vision that was the subject of classicism and the and the and the baroque because it gives a lot of yes because on the one hand there is the own consideration of the domain as an architect and the attention paid to classical architecture, baroque architecture, etc., etc., but there is also the evolution of culture in general and of the movements at that time, not just like modernism, but like other European trends, it seems that it is a break with history but it turns out that Domenc himself explains that this is not true and the raúl mentioned this morning in the article about the search for a national architecture and how also in some way manifests something that Mr. President, you have studied very well what is this popular presence of the Baroque in terms of architecture in towns and cities. I already have the habit of not calling them towns anymore because in Catalonia I think that they are all cities of different categories but with a gentleman from Solsona, you can’t tell him this town, no, this is one, it’s a city, well, in these cities, perhaps smaller in size, what are the most beautiful examples of baroque that there have been, also from the academy itself or from the own teachings of the architecture of the school m that of the market and also that it also comes you have treated it as the the baroque trend had an influence on the popular culture itself many of the festivals and rites and things that are done the towns of Catalonia are baroque, let’s call it a baroque presence, well, from all this we would have to get a contribution from you, which will surely be very good, eh, to try what Domenec should capture from all this and see if we can get something out of it you’re starting very well, Raúl, very well, thank you very much, we’ve agreed that we’ll make two interventions first, one and the other no, and then we’ll talk, erm, I’d like to talk more generally about this dichotomy that we have in the title of the session, huh classicism versus baroque classic and baroque eh I would like to place it a little historically because as I said this morning the first question we can ask ourselves is whether this opposition between classic and baroque by Domenic and Montaner existed or not if it was something that made sense to ask yourself or not eh and to explain this I will first make a somewhat long journey eh because of course eh classify the history of art by periods eh by artistic periods with certain stylistic features even with a certain vision of the world eh this is not something that has always been done throughout history it is not a is a fact this is part of a modern discourse on history a modern discourse that owes a lot to the philosophy of history that begins to be formed in the 18th century and then the 19th century emerges which has a lot to do with the constitution of the history of art as such that it is a discipline that is a modern discipline then in this context the first is dichotomy that it was used right at the end of the 18th century and the beginning of the 19th to classify the history of culture with the history of art, of course it is the classic and romantic dichotomy, this is not what we find for example in the Schlegel brothers German is the opposition between classical and romantic is the one that extends to all of Europe starting with the expansion of romanticism also in Catalonia and hey but an observation must be made here because in this opposition, in fact, the romantics, especially the German romantics, understood the term romantic in a way that was different from how we understand it, eh, for them, classical, eh, I meant the ancient world, pagan, of course, Greece, basically also in Rome, eh, and romantic in fact, I meant the Christian world, or whatever appears, the culture that begins to form in the Middle Ages by the historical romantics, let’s say it was already romantic, they already called it that, and specifically, they explained to me that the classics the ancients lived in a civilization that considered that happiness was found on this earth in this world and on the other hand the romantics, i.e. the Christian civilization that came later, had the idea that happiness was found in another world no and that’s how they established this this opposition eh this in fact this dichotomy eh was fully valid at the time of domenica and montaner and in fact when eugeni dors eh wants to charge the modernists he accuses them of romantics or whatever he does is say we are the supporters of the classics and on the other hand these, uh, these bans that we have to unseat, uh, they are supporters of chaos and romantic disorder , and this kind of thing is therefore an opposition that really continues to work throughout all this time Well, if we introduce the concept of baroque, things get complicated because the word baroque has been in use for a long time, that is, in the 17th century, it is used as a pejorative adjective, to designate a kind of highly charged art, but without any attempt of historical classification eh and eh precisely the first studies eh monographic and serious eh that try eh to clearly distinguish a baroque era and a baroque art with its own characteristics precisely these studies are from the period of the youth of Domenic and Montaner especially in the German area there is a wonderful book that is from the year 1888 that is renaissance and baroque by heinrich wfl eh that is one of the key texts because they place the baroque the artistic concept of baroque in history in the history of art therefore right at this very moment is beginning to be disseminated begins to circulate the idea that there is an era that is baroque that can be distinguished from the renaissance because in fact if we look if we look at what happens in the the general history of art that began eh lluís domenec i montaner at aa the publishing house montaner simón and that the architecture part was done by him and pgi de falc so and domenic i montaner was dedicated to curiously ov not curiously but he devoted himself to the to the architecture of ancient Mesopotamia the primitive architecture even talks about the manners according to the Egyptian architecture and eh and then the medieval part until the renaissance he did it later eh, I’m sick of it, but if we look at the index of this history of architecture, we see that the Baroque doesn’t appear, that is, the Renaissance comes and the r inside, when you read the Renaissance, you find a moment that refers to the degeneration of the Renaissance not to some baroque tendencies, that is to say that this and this volume of the wedge sink are from 1901, so that is to say, we are saying that until a very, very recent time, no, there was no clear awareness, or at least it was not everywhere of an opposition between, er, between classic and baroque, erm, as far as the global discourse is concerned, er, on the history of European art, if we go specifically to the Catalan case, things still get complicated, for several reasons, and erm, first I try to explain it from the side of literature which I think is interesting and which and which links with the other eh with the more part of the plastic arts or architecture eh the second half of the 19th century is the era in which eh is consolidated the myth of decadence is is the time in which eh é for example there is a work by a very little known author but which is historically important that he is Magí pers and Ramona Magí pers and ramona wrote the first systematization of Catalan literature is from 1857 it is a work published in Spanish that was entitled history of the language and Catalan literature desde su origen hasta nuestros dias 1857 therefore the first history of Catalan literature, in other words we have to assume that people interested in Catalan literature basically read this book and this book has a chapter entitled Decadence of Catalan literature and causes that promote it and the cause that promoted it is the union from his point of view of the crowns of Aragon and Castile in agreement or in accordance with this historiographical discourse ehm i eh i therefore, what I had said about this book is from the 16th century, even though it speaks very well of vicent garcia, of the rector of the Fogona dance, but in any case, from the 16th century, Catalan literature goes into decline, the resurgence it doesn’t arrive until the 19th century until the renaissance, this is not the canonical discourse the interpretive model of the history of Catalan literature that was established at that time but at the same time something else happens that is very interesting the classic Catalan most published in the 19th century is vicent garcia is the rector of vallfugona and in fact if we review the editions of the rector of vallfugona there is approximately one every five or 10 years that is to say he is a real bestseller he is the author the classic author that it was published and that it was read and that it was commented on and this reaches up to the 80s of the nineteenth century and in the 80s satem sec or the 80s is an author who ceases to be interesting erm how should we interpret this then eh it arrives well, there are many different reasons, but we could say the entry of a certain modernity or a certain new aesthetic of a certain new conception of history makes the past move from this baroque author to in the middle ages not and from that moment on the great classics will be therefore ramon lull aes marc the chronicles the tiran lo blanc etcetera eh therefore eh baroque literature even though they didn’t call it baroque eh at that time or vicent garcia, not in the 19th century, I don’t think there is anyone who calls it baroque, but baroque literature was the literature that had lived and that had remained alive until the end of the 19th century, erm, and in fact if we go to the art and let’s go to architecture and that later Maria will talk to me a lot more but the last great style that had remained alive that had continued to have a social use a social function in religious worship was the Baroque just not the baroque altarpieces that were in the churches, yes, in fact, the net that sometimes prevented you from seeing the Romanesque things that were behind it, no, therefore, the baroque was the art, yes, it was the popular art and the whole world of the Pabis of popular Catholicism is still permeated today with this baroque aesthetic, it was popular art, but on the other hand, the discourse that was generated about history somehow repressed all of this, overlooked it, placed it within a label of decadence and eh and therefore eh then no no I wasn’t paying attention and in fact there are very interesting anecdotes the nuance has been discussed about these trips of Domenic and Montaner to rediscover the Romanesque eh of course this this kind of trips and this rediscovery of the Romanesque fits perfectly within the dichotomy of classic and romantic that we said before in the sense that they are going to discover the foundational Christian art of the Catalan nation they did not go to discover the Romanesque and this medieval Christian art is what the romantics they called it romantic in fact, that is, it is where they saw their beginning, no, but what is interesting about these trips is what they wanted to see and what they did not want to see, no, because when they went to look for the romantic, we talked about it before, and it could not have been a baroque altarpiece in front and this baroque altarpiece, so they took it out, put it away, not as something that was worth nothing, maybe sometimes they burned it and everything else and they went to look for the previous thing, the Romanesque thing that was the forgotten thing too, or it was the art that no longer had a liturgical function in general not that it had been forgotten and in fact if there is one or if today we have Romanesque art the place where we have it no and also the Gothic oh and the place I mean the MNC, too, or if it occupies the importance it naturally has, it is because it is intrinsically very important, I do not want to deny it in any way, but if it occupies that main symbolic place of foundation, it is precisely because of the strength of this speech that begins to consolidate in the second half of the 19th century ehm and in fact there is another thing a little more tragic eh that also when we get to the civil war the the easiest art to burn are the baroque wooden altarpieces naturally, therefore, one of the great disappearances of baroque art that exists is the disappearance of the year of the year 36 mmm then as for whether Domenic i Montaner has a specific perception of the baroque or not I I think it is interesting to go to the article that was mentioned this morning which is that it is fundamental this article which is entitled in search of a national architecture which is from 1878 erm in search of a national architecture is it is a very article very peculiar very curious because because in fact with this I do not disagree a little with some things that have been said before eh this national that is when he says that he is looking for a national art this national is Spain is Spanish what happens is that within the article says that it is impossible for there to be a national Spanish art, not that it does this, it does this operation, it says that it is impossible for there to be a unitary Spanish art, that in any case there will be several arts from the various towns of the state no ehm and then it is interesting because the title does not include the national adjective but within the article the first adjective it uses is not an identifier of the nation in some way but an art that is in the height of the times of modern times and the problem that Domenic and Montaner sees is that he says we are in a transition period in an era that does not have clear civilizational principles and therefore there is no defined art that express our civilizational moment as in the past because Romanesque art had expressed the medieval Christian civilization or classical art had expressed the Greek civilization etcetera eh therefore he says that eh the title is in search precisely because he considers that the the only thing that can be done at this time at the end of the sixteenth century is to look for it, this art cannot be imposed, it cannot be decided exactly what it is and what he does is identify when there are four possibilities, four possible paths that some accept and others, not the first is the path that she calls pseudo-classical, er, the classic or Greco-Roman, but which she says is a kind of historical pseudocaranx, er, according to the needs of each building, not the examples she gives, it is a Egyptian-style cemetery, a Greek-style museum, a Roman-style congress, etc. and here when he makes this list of possibilities is the only time in the entire article where the word baroque appears and the word appears at the moment in which he says a half-Roman half-baroque theater, okay, or the baroque style could be suitable according to this eclectic school to make a theater because naturally the theater is a phenomenon, uh, eminently baroque, apart from its medieval and ancient precedents, uh, these would be the first two possibilities eh the first two searches for a style then eh there is another one which is the there are two more which are medievalist he says or one is the Christian medievalist we could say it is recreating art romanesque and ogival we think that at this moment when he when he publishes this article the building of the university of barcelona the de lias rugent building which is a building that is inspired by the romanesque ehm and the other medievalist school would be that of Arab architecture or modéer or neo modéer, of course it is another eh naturally another of the styles that were practiced at that time so these are the four possibilities and we can see that not there is a clear opposition here between classic and baroque the baroque emerges at a moment as one as one of the historical possibilities eh and finally eh he in fact does not marry any of these schools with any of these lines he he what he says is that the only thing we can do in our time is to prepare a new architecture a new architecture that is he says areva of all the previous ones or a new architecture that is able to integrate the history in some way to incorporate it erm but at the same time it is looking for erm a consistency with modern construction systems with modern materials not because something you often notice is that historical styles would be very good if the technique had not evolved no, but since there has been a technical evolution, well, no, we can’t limit ourselves to building the way it was done, the way it was done before, and the article ends in one word, we worship and study it assiduously past we look with firm conviction for what we must do today and let us have faith and courage to carry it out and so it is a style that is a is an article from which we can indeed deduce that manual classicism so to speak well it seemed like a dead end that’s the only thing we can say but the rest are open roads in a way they are open roads to explore ii to see to see where they lead eh maybe if you think I end up here this my first exhibition is good and then and then we resume it let’s continue the conversation come on then okay okay thank you and good afternoon well I’ll try to take the testimony from Raul and in fact I’ve been signing up so some things are starting from his his intervention is precisely also to be seen to solve this question that the history of art after all is a relatively relatively recent discipline so to speak it has also sometimes led to many mistakes and many misunderstandings, which are often still very present, such as this issue of attributing a style or a certain style to a specific chronology, sometimes even this is done wholesale by centuries, i.e. Gothic 14th and 15th or well depending on how and of course we’re talking about level eh if we’re talking about the European level the 15th maybe we already put it already we put it renaissance eh fifteenth century we put mannerism like that for the br for the big spout on the 17th we put the baroque and on the 18th we put the neoclassical and then well the next day so we’ll see, of course I’ve dedicated myself to studying this very curious thing because it’s Catalan art but of the period modern and for many years associated with this decadence, of course there are many things that you see that do not suit us right from the start because here Catalonia continues to be built with Gothic, we could even say almost until the middle of the 17th century, especially in terms of so the representative buildings, so to speak , and the religious architecture, the cross vault, was not abandoned until the middle of the 16th century, and to see this is telling us a lot of things too, so it tells us about the rooting of this Gothic architecture tells us about a very consolidated trade union tradition and tells us about this presence also so important in the imagination of the builders of the country that Gothic architecture had but it’s that often also sometimes I like to start the eh my classes depends on the course it is eh comparing two images that in a way eh constitutes this which is a foundational work of the architectural quatrocento or of the Italian renaissance eh and I put at the same time because the interior of the cathedral of Girona eh of course we are talking about two eh styles we could say that they have nothing to do with a Gothic cathedral and the dome and, as I said, the foundational work of the architectural renaissance, but it turns out that they are practically contemporary works if we talk about the interior of the Girona Cathedral and especially the step from the three naves to that single and so wide nave because we are talking about the same chronology as the dome of de brun lki but we are also talking about the existence of two architectural and intellectual debates of first magnitude that take place in Catalonia and Florence, but instead they tell us about two styles, two completely different styles, that ‘s why I also think that it’s appropriate to dismantle these clichés that are so rigid or to associate a style with one with a chronology, well, then, with regard to the title, we could say of this of this afternoon’s intervention and this classicism versus versus baroque, I also always like to point out that no, we don’t necessarily have to see them as opposite concepts or as adversative concepts, first of all, also as a result of the clichés and stigmas that have dragged the baroque for a long time and that has dragged the baroque since then of this, well, of this first historiographical construction that sometimes this case goes well, since we are talking about Domenec, the architectural baroque is very classic, that is, the architectural baroque does not abandon at any time because the grammar of the architecture of classic architecture and plays in a different way can speculate with the spaces m can eh so dare with certain with certain plants but the language eh remains the same eh and even many aspects of the plastic eh curiously yes So let’s place this with what would be the epicenter of the European Baroque, which would be Italy at the beginning of the 16th century , then a painting like the one Nibal Carrat does in the Farnese Gallery , then with that unfolding of the loves of the gods and this apotheosis of the goodness of mythological painting, so to speak, in reality it is considered and celebrated extraordinarily because it constitutes a return to Raphael’s painting, eh, and this is indeed considered to be somewhat in opposition to the that he had represented the mannerism because of de of style itza here excessive of caprice and other derivations eh yes they considered that they had made eh derive so to speak ooo they had made this one deviate classical tradition, but what Anal Carchi does is in some way to repaint the classical tradition or recover the thread of this classical tradition and that it will be a tradition that actually reaches well into contemporary times because if we put ourselves in this case then in the field of European Baroque painting, of course we will find that both are tendencies this classicism of the square and maybe then the naturalism ooo the realism of Caravaggio see carabo is an extraordinary impact I mean it is a brutal impact on the at the time but it will be very limited in time m carabo because they follow them we could say eh up to 30 years after his death from the middle of the 16th century practically no one talks about caravaggio anymore m he will recover again we could say bueno with the realism maybe of the 19th century or with corbet or whatever but it will not be in fact roberto longui already in the 20th century the great scholar of carabo who will rescue him so to speak in a way eh and who will triumph will be this classical tradition incarnated we could say that by bernini embodied by rubens eh and then embodied by the neoclassical fashion or that in reality I think there is a permeability because quite eh quite evident between what it would be eh classicism and between and between what would be the baroque in fact the baroque can also be seen with a double with a double perspective on the one hand eh there are those who have considered it what would be the epigraph tis eh then when let’s talk about this we could say of this aspect that pejorative ooo this disrepute with what falls with what falls the baroque m bueno aside we could say at the Catalan level because of the identification then debatable also with the with the bueno debatable the concept of decadence, it always seems to me, and this is a rather personal opinion, because both in terms of Catalonia and in terms of Europe, there are those issues that are sometimes more prosaic, even linked to the distance to the short temporal distance, yes, the need to make a break, for example, no, in the case of 19th century Europe, this is the emergence of the national consciousnesses, etcetera, etcetera, and of course they do that for example then in Germany or in Germanic territory so the symbol of this we could say of this effervescence and this claim of the medieval world is the completion or the end of the Cologne Cathedral and the Cologne Cathedral of somehow it should be directed as a spiritual reference but it is clear that the German Baroque had been in some way for four days that it had reached its maximum expression because for example the German eh well I’m talking then it wasn’t exactly German but well I’m talking about these Germanic territories in general they live their baroque or they live their baroque era because in the 17th century not in the 16th century in the 16th century these territories suffer enormously because of the war with the 30 years war and in fact then its flourishing baroque then with the bavarian churches one then like dresden then with with promoters eh eh so interesting then like august the fort etcetera etcetera then eh they already have very advanced chronologies of the century very of the 17th century in the case of France, it is clear that seeing the Baroque also has this political identification with the old, with the old regime, and then we cannot neglect the impact of the advent of neoclassicism, I insist a a bit sometimes provocative fashion in the middle of the 18th century because, like the Baroque, we can talk about it as a concept of a period, as a concept of an extended period, yes, neoclassicism does not identify the art of the 18th century, the neoclassicism in a way it is the impact generated by the archaeological discoveries eh so that will take place in the south of Italy eh m bueno for everything that will be generated from Rome because at that time the effects eh of the grand tour etcetera etcetera etcetera but we could say that they are effects that are very, very specific and very elitist. You can also see them in the Spanish state because in Spain the real academy of arts of San Fernando was created in the middle of the 18th century and that in some way also moved for this desire to put an end to the baroque excesses iii in some way to promote a return to the classical world because it will try first of all to prohibit the execution of altarpieces the final manufacture of baroque altarpieces with the excuse of precisely the high combustibility of wood, which is true because precisely how well that how well the baroque burned down in the war in the civil war eh but well eh behind this excuse of the high combustibility of The wood was there, so I wanted to avoid these polychrome wooden altarpieces, these altarpieces with watermarks, which they considered excessive and said no, from now on, the altarpieces must be made with stone, with trees. clear materials all of them that no longer allowed this ductility and therefore assumed a forced stylistic change but at the same time the real academy of san fernando also imposes the obligation that all public buildings so to speak or all the buildings with a notable representation had to go through control, that is, the project had to be sent compulsorily to the academy to be approved, most of them were rejected . first-hand documentation of how the academy systematically rejected all the church projects, for example, that they received from towns, villages, cities, and simply because in most cases they were not projects made by academics, we think we are in a moment where architecture as a liberal profession does not yet exist or the figure of the architect as a liberal professional who is dedicated only to architectural projection is fundamentally the they were architects, they were master builders, so they could have more or less ability to project, but they were also on the job, that is, they were also trained in the trade of construction, so the academy wanted to finish so with this practice and I rejected all the projects that happened but the reality was more stubborn and when I returned the documentation then with the rejection and sometimes even then I returned to the specific place with a project proposed by the real academy of san fernando is a project proposed by an academic, eh, but what happened to that project, I didn’t like it, eh, on a popular level, I mean, we could call it this type of architecture, because it’s more, eh, based, so we could say that with some more, eh, more classical forms , then no, I didn’t like it and in 90% of the cases, this precept or this or this reform was not followed , of course I insist on the case of Catalonia, the architecture is also very classic, don’t abandon, eh, they don’t abandon Catalan churches so the classical grammar what happens that well mm will be very common because eh the crownings will be very common because with a semicircular profile and that sometimes from the semicircle so we go to a eh to some curves and counter curves because more sinuous than there were ways then also or we could say to play plastically with this with this classical matrix but well another question of how little root neoclassicism will have at the popular level we can exemplify it for example with a figure with the figure of Damián by Damián Campeny hey damià peny then it is to be the neo architect oh sorry the neoclassical sculptor par excellence and artists of the famous lucrecia morta then we have in the building of lodja well there are already eh several versions also the manac then with la la Cleopatra eh etcetera etcetera clar de mia campeny m was sent to Rome by the free school of drawing which was the institution that had stayed had been created here in the last third of the 18th century so sponsored by the board of trade because in Rome somehow they are imbued with this more intense classicism, eh, but when Damià Campeny comes back here and has to earn a living as a sculptor, eh , he realizes that the most of the clientele m most of the clientele continues to like the baroque eh and this is evident for example with the sculptural group that he has to do for the mm for the confraternity of the for the resellers’ guild in the church of the pine the vendors of the church of the pine had a mystery during Holy Week, so what is it called? They tell Damián Campeny to make this a mystery during Holy Week, and that mystery if you are going to see it today. made strictly because it is from Manac but it is in storage at the church of the pi well you will see that you will see that it is a sculptural group eh a baroque sculptural group because it was what I liked yes Damián Campeny in some way takes advantage of base of the whole, we could say the base of the whole set, to then put some reliefs, very neoclassical reliefs, etcetera etcetera because well, that too, no, no, we are not the base, no one fixed it, no one fixed it, but hey, the spirit which in some way continued to challenge popular religiosity or popular piety because it was still deeply this this spirit eh this baroque spirit mm the baroque eh in a way it is pedagogy but also above all it is persuasion is persuasion and so look for this eh look for this interpellate and look for this this move the effects to say it to say it in some way and well it would only end also so in this case not to prolong myself eh maybe claiming once again a little bit this this concept m more permeable also of the eh of the styles eh because for example then this the romanticism mm appears in art then in the engravings of Piranesi the and not only with the prisons of Piranesi that we can say uh yes place eh those chiaroscuro and all eh all that question of why he does what he does so much reference to the sublime etcetera etcetera eh no not necessarily eh Piranesi also earns a living doing views of Rome doing his classics view of the Roman ruins and that more classic than the Roman ruins but the Roman ruins interpreted by Piranesi eh they are already growing there some hedges in the middle which was probably so in reality how they were at that time eh and when we see those classic ruins interpreted by Piranesi and we somehow also see the emergence or the prolegomena because there is a eh of a true eh romanticism like even in the English context so let’s see I always say England eh we could say then the European area or the European region that has a more classical baroque they follow Palladio always line by line eh and the cathedral of sant pol de london eh, it’s from the 16th century, it won’t seem too different to you than the church of Santa Genoveva in Paris, then the pantheon or the capitol of or the Washington capitol so to speak but even in the 16th century so in England and hii we have that honors wall pool that will make one of the first gothic novels in the castle of otranto and that will be built there a a a a country house eh like a castle like a castle medieval and also in the large gardens of the neoplastic residences apart from classic temples or imitations of classic ruins and it begins b also some medieval ruins eh I take up precisely this last idea you pointed out eh the permeability of styles that I think I’m doing well to make three observations eh that I left myself to make the first is ehm bas is a question eh is the question the question with which we started in fact there is some kind of or we can put modernism in relation to the baroque in some way, or does this relation exist, then, to answer this question before commenting on the references made by Domenic and Montaner to the baroque in the founding article of the architecture of this search for national architecture, eh, but I think there are two details that allow us to play a little with these terms and perhaps enlighten you a little, there is one that is more speculative, eh? a little eh this way of doing cultural history then based on big concepts and not and not focusing so much on the details eh the first one which is more speculative is the precisely the book by eugeni dors on the baroque of the Baroque, which is a book that, on the other hand, I really like with its flaws and its virtues, like everything Eugeni Dors did, but it’s a book that came out in 1935 in French first and after the civil war it came out in Spanish but it is a book in which he performs a life-jump operation with 10 fingers relatively the trajectory of eugeni dors because as I told you eugeni dors began by charging the modernists by labeling him of romantics, not that is, using this dichotomy of classic and romantic, when Eugeni Dors left Catalan culture and went to Madrid, it happened that in Madrid the baroque was important, not naturally because the baroque is, well, the art of the austries art of the bourbons there is one there is one there is the prado there was not all that all that exhibition of the baroque and therefore in that context he said hey replace the dichotomy classic romantic with classical baroque no and starting from starting from that moment what he had said about the romantic he says about the baroque but much more positive often and in fact the book the what is special about this book on the back is that for him the baroque is in fact not an era and enough but that the baroque is one of the two great stylistic tendencies in the whole history of art and the other is the classic no and eugeni dors speaks of the baroque like an aeon says be a kind of essence that it was manifested in different historical moments and towards the end of the book he makes a list of the different historical declinations of the baroque we could say or yes he says that the primitive art the manir are baroque in some way, then he says that the art in nistic rock , but there is a list like this a moment ago, with Latin, as if they were, as if they were terms of biology, yes, in gender and species, he talks about baroque, pristin, baroque, etc., but there there is a moment that says barrocos finolis or the baroque of the end of the century or the end of the century fin and secular which is naturally modernism or it refers to modernism as one of the historical incarnations of the baroque and we can say that it is more or less speculative if we can begin to discuss if there are elements not in this architecture the more pictorial elements the more sculptural elements eh that can make us think of some aspects of the baroque which I think partly yes but eh beyond this vision more speculative there is another more concrete one which is to focus on which are the characters who insisted more on the recovery in the revaluation of the Catalan baroque and we find that for example one of the important names is josep francesc who wrote one s explain until the war and of course it is curious because it is written just before the baroque art was burned, well to a good extent because josep francesc rafuls was from gaudi’s circle and is the first biographer of gaudi, or so it seems that there is a line not to enjoy towards this revaluation of the baroque who is the other big name in the revaluation of the Catalan baroque césar martinell césar martinell who was a disciple of domenic i montaner a al at the school of architecture and Gaudí too and César Martinell in fact something similar happened to him because he did his work before the war he didn’t publish it until the 50’s 60’s when many of the works he saw or commented on no longer exist therefore it is possible that the sensibility, a certain modernist sensibility, allows us to look at the baroque again with other eyes, no, this is it, it is possible that a certain historical justice is produced, after the rejection of the baroque, this recovery and finally to finish already the third observation also linking with this idea of the permeability of styles ehm before I said that the baroque is the last great living popular style that maintains a use a social function a living use ehm and in fact eh there There is an idea that has been defended a lot by Pere Jaume, for example, which is the idea that the Catalan avant-gardes are linked to this living popular baroque, and in fact, me too, Foix has a very beautiful thing when he talks about miró, he says miró is the passe brist astral not the pass brist astral that is it is a very beautiful way to talk about baroque art the head of the valley not the astral track we imagine a pass bre shiny eh it shines like the altarpieces eh covered with gold eh and in fact we can talk about miró and foix we can talk about jujol for example also about this link with popular Catholicism which is deel baroque ehm therefore ehm what is interesting is that the baroque that in some moment in Catalonia it was seen as the anti-modern art that had to be rejected eh there comes a moment that seems to reconnect with modernity mm yes yes in fact ss I would believe eh these these observations eh in fact because I think that precisely when does the eh perhaps more intense rejection towards the baroque art occur precisely in the moment before the modernism yes so of course we have we are in the renaissance so we have to vindicate eh medieval art so ii above all and above all the Romanesque and then well obviously because it is them when we talk about decadence of course I always mm think of course we talk about decadence but as you said m the churches arrive at the civil war completely filled still with altarpieces baroque altarpieces there had not been a change the sensibility in the eh so that in the 19th century they change it they change everything they remove the baroque altarpieces no no the baroque altarpieces at the c popular level continued continued to function I mean they had this eh still so this this this this function this m this capacity so to interpellate a certain a finished sensitivity but I also think that if we look at the if we look at the profile of the most of the Catalan population, this is also an idea, a recurring idea, let’s look at our towns, our cities, they are even eminently baroque, if we talk about the centers of the historic centers, obviously the historic centers have a golden the medieval period eh but how many medieval houses will we find with eh in any of the historic centers of even the most important cities or the smallest towns the Catalan profile I would say practically oo the country’s skyline is one is one and it’s a baroque skyline still completely eh it’s the baroque bell towers that define the profile of most of these towns and then as we said clearly there is a series of questions that never end to square eh despite the political events bad despite well well the status of Catalonia at that time with respect to the state mm we have this a stylistic survival we have a craft eh a craft so powerful eh artistically well I say where is it eh where is the decadence , then, here’s what you were saying about whether modernism could be a new baroque in a certain way or to do it justice, no, I wouldn’t be so categorical to put it in a new baroque, modernism is the modernism but as well as me without being at all an expert because with Domenic and Montaner Domenic and Montaner because I drink a lot and I drink very organically and I drink it effectively because an architect who I think puts into practice in a certain way because what he formulates aa the article m because his is not an ar eclectic architecture so to speak it doesn’t m doesn’t make pastiche but yes he has a respect and not animosity at all what would be what would be the Baroque, I think it would be highlighted by the restoration done by the rocky canet, well, canet, canet de mar . lies the essence the essence of the farmhouse of what the farmhouse is perhaps because the farmhouse is also symbolically also it ends up being a spiritual referent even of that of Catalanity but it is that here the hospital of Sant Pau we have a work there and we have a baroque work and many people don’t know that it’s the facade of the old baroque church of Santa Marta don so it’s placed here in the grounds of the church of Santa Marta it was a temple that, well, it suffered the effects of the construction of the opening of the Via Laietana and, well , it has a baroque facade , I would say very similar to that of Sant Felip Neri. door that follows well practically very very similar to that of the church of sant felip neri and it is placed so this stuck facade yes but but but in the grounds of the hospital of sant pau i mean no no eh at that time because it was being built, it should be considered that it was not, it was not, it was not ugly, and it was not, and it was not funny, yes, there are other architects, even the same joy that we could say clearly joy it is the most unclassifiable of all , but I do think that in specific aspects I can see a Baroque Gaudí, for example with the Calbet House, but because the Calbet House, well, we have that too, semicircular crowns, we have Solomonic columns in the hall, there are elements that more canonically that we can associate eh that we can associate therefore the to the style to the baroque style and curiously also eh then what will be eh what will be Auen ism which on the other hand therefore clearly advocates therefore the evidently the break eh with the modernism and what it represented, so this is a return to classicism, etcetera, etcetera, it will mostly be architects and noucentist theorists who, on the other hand, will start to claim the baroque, but who are these characters, as he said the raül that is actually still formed in the context of modernism would be rafols itself or césar martinell eh but of course if we are talking about rafols hey we’re talking about noucentism and even if we’re talking about martinell also although let’s see his architecture then heh heh we could say he still has a lot of modernism but historiographical because the recovery of modernism and the first great first great claim that even an encyclopedia of modernism, sorry about the Catalan baroque, here we are using terminology because it will be the volumes of César Martinell on art and architecture, eh baroques formulated earlier but finally because published published in the 60s and that was a long time or many years had to pass for someone to also deal with the Baroque period, well, maybe from Martinell in the 60s we reached the 80s, with a work like this also of synthesis ii encyclopedia and encyclopedia as is the history of Catalan art from editions 62 where we will have a volume 4 dedicated only to the 15th century made by Joaquim Garriga and a volume dedicated to the 16th and 16th centuries made by Joan Ramon Tri m something from also because of alcohol but for many years the historiography on the specifically Catalan baroque was a desert, well we don’t clarify anymore because it’s not fantastic to be able to check for specialists like this kind of complexity that it is complexity eh chronological complexity cultural complexity complexity or coexistence of styles of course, for example, the first question of this one about modernism, what is it, what did he say about the baroque, of course, there are such tremendous examples of that, first, that of Domenec, which we already said this morning, of somehow working on a new architecture and therefore look further north and look more at violet adic and look more at the countries of a more classical ancient architecture that does not look so much at Rome and the exit from Rome via Turin via exit Germany and ending with the churches of de vis or de or not from Munich, but on the other hand the first thing he said was that it was good that they were doing it, for example the subject of sanitary light is a subject that is very very very slow or very controversial or very radical that he proposes from the first work of montan simon takes it to many places from here or to the music itself as a basic paradigm but this is a baroque theme surely the l that is to say or this idea of the illusion of the baroque scenography it’s not cl then it means that we encounter this permeability that makes what you said not that César Martinell that I had the honor of giving me the two volumes of the baroque aaa the school’s culture commission of architects, I told him, but listen, Mr. Martinell, we were obviously talking about you, you did the sealés, this is good, but you have to look at how architecture, architecture is everything, and then your grandfather said to your bavi made this permeability is very very important that there are some lines that go a little on their own which is the popular baroque the baroque of the altarpieces made by the artisans by the carpenters of the towns taking inspiration from others eh but if we talk to focus on In the case of Domenec, we have to agree that there is a terrible expertise, the chronological issue is like this, yes, Domenec advances in modernist styles and begins, that is, Domenc, if he wanted to go, he could start studying architecture in the shop with Sellés and with the married one above by age married above it was called casa deun but instead he had this idea of going to Madrid and then in Madrid there was already rationalization, that is to say it is so complicated because I am a Romanian when he goes to Madrid I personally don’t think that he has a very clear idea about rational architecture, the architecture of the structure, but that despite the structure, let’s say of teaching, he is totally an academic from the Madrid school that it was a disaster, but Domenic was lucky to have two or three teachers who went to talk to him about how a building had to be made, think about it from the function of creating a structure, all of this even though to me now I might fastidio a little he took it from madrid or what what what what what is it and on the other hand of course when he comes back here to barcelona m somehow he sees himself able to use or it’s me I think we’re going to stop at the keyword not the idea eclecticism the eclecticism is that of course it had an exception a historical meaning but Domenec and the time of Domenec and the article of the in search of national it is still the Catalan or Spanish Catalan example of articles that are produced in France or Belgium or Germany or even England or Ferguson I think he was called is a critic who wrote an article also saying in search of a current architecture there is a book that is the most wonderful book that teaches me how to understand historical architecture that is the book by Collins that translated Ignasi Solà in the collection of de la Gili that is the book that it is the one that the ideal is called the original is called changing ideals in architecture and in this of this it explains what you were talking about it does not go back to the 16th century 17th century like how Roman architecture ii breaks the south of Germany like the English neoclassics like the neopolis is built and for example Domenec initially has a rather strong rejection of the English because he says man is that they have not evolved they have stayed with the neopolis of the houses of the mansions or something like that and I think that it’s never finished and on the other hand where he goes basically in Europe he goes to Italy but because he likes the Doge’s Palace in Venice and because he likes it but he doesn’t go to see classical architecture it goes to the north of Europe it goes to Germany and it stopped the neoclassics eh German I mean that it is of such brutal complexity trying to talk only about the relations of the classic and baroque with but hey, I think you’ve enriched the intersection of all these things so much that it’s been very, very interesting, for example, the case of Jol is a case for me, for me he’s the best architect of modernism, now I’m saying it a little controversial because I would have to be defending my great-grandfather but but the jol is a genius and at the same time one of understanding the mentality of popular things and things well all his last works some made with with mattresses recovered from the people of the town or others doing whatever it is, not but others and this has cost me a few meetings with my orthodox eh architect friends, I defend the fountain in the Plaça d’Espanya because of course a gentleman who war or European culture is taking him from disenchantment to disenchantment, that is to say, if Dominic was already disenchanted, imagine the pit behind him because it only makes you see misfortunes and then it is not strange that the wedding trip pretty big house and they go to rome ii even though he had been speculating and doing and helping gaudí and creating these wonders of the bató house and of the and of the quarry and of and of so many things that gaudi’s followers wanted him remove that this is another one of the sins of historiography di ara say if Gaudí himself took him to Mallorca to paint the cathedral of Palma no but it is the same the point is that John this disenchantment brings him back to the good in the ‘exhibition of 29 and he sees that everything is very revolutionized and the dictatorship of Primo de Rivera and such and such it is not then clear how it is possible that a man who had gone through modernism and who had created that he had worked with with with the with the Galician doing all the urbanization of the queer of Jaume and who had worked at the Athenaeum with Bueno who suddenly understands that what they are entrusting him with is a central square where three important roads converge and some secondary he can solve only that what he has taken in Rome is clear in Rome Bernini and Borromini drowned him under their eh that’s what I think the Domenec said listen to you in their al of you do what you want if you want to do neoclassical neoclassical if you want to do it but it’s fine or everything has its rules and yours about it then the wonder that is even though the school says no that they say it is a disaster but the wonder that is the urban study of how Jol, who initially adopts a pn, is circular through the fort but then sees that the three roads intersect according to the geometry of the hexagon or the triangle and therefore begins to think that there is a geometry hidden there that he has to exploit, which is the polygonal geometry of the triangle and the hexagon, and it comes out of the base, there are three strong points that are the limit of the source and then he goes up iii all this kind of inspiration that makes it look like a Roman square but at the same time with a little vagrant finishes that you say well now what good is that but he starts working on it in such a way that It seems to me that it is the most important example of Neo-Baroque than to call it something Neo-Baroque from Barcelona, but with that I just mean that I am getting too wrapped up in that the domain before him already plowed a very, very wide culture and he encouraged it even more and passed it on to his disciples, among whom I think Jol was a very, very advanced disciple, what else, let’s see what else we can say, many things, I don’t know, there is one, there is a question well, speaking more, of course, I’m not an expert in architecture in any way, but speaking more in terms of what is baroque or what is not baroque or what can be identified as baroque in the architecture of Domen here Montaner, of course first of there is the question, there is the problem of these typifications of the baroque, not that they are always partial and always problematic, but one thing that we often see in the baroque and that he could see it perfectly, for example in the ‘Eglise de bethlem de la rambla eh what are those you see padded not that thing is that it is something very typically baroque to dissociate the matter from the form not that is from a matter that is hard like stone make it look eh smooth or flaky no or rounded no eh that this is seen in many different ways in others eh no I don’t know in the in the baroque altarpieces like the one of the miracle eh of the wood turned into eh this thing of playing with a material that of sometimes he is poor or he is or he is humble like wood and making him seem very luxurious eh or is this dissociation between matter and appearance eh curiously in the case of Domenic and Montaner eh I think it is not something that can be applied to him in set because he, for example, we play the block finishes the brick finishes that you can see which is that which is the opposite of this not that it is that it is to show you the building as it is to show you the structure without covering- not of any kind, not in any way, but since then it is true that there is all that other aspect of the classical typologies of the Baroque that they usually say is a pictorial architecture or that it is a sculptural architecture, isn’t it? ‘they try to make this kind of association also between the type of art you make and the type of effect you are looking for not eh ii in this sense eh if we compare eh for example the montane i simón publishing house and the palau de la música i I think that we do see a very clear difference here in the sense that my feeling in front of that of the mountain man and simon is that it is a very strong bet for functionality and to exhibit this functionality not of those voices exposed brick walls and eh and the music palace without losing the functionality that is very much there is a game with the pictorial element and the sculptural element that overflows the architecture itself and in fact the same urban context where it is found to be very narrow and which means that you cannot see the building from afar but you see it from close up and you have the feeling that it is a building that is pure verticality isn’t it that this vertical force is precisely one of the things that wfl in the in the in that book that said about the baroque identifies as a characteristic of the baroque the baroque eh what it does is against the previously rested horizontality don’t bet on this this ascending line yes yes eh Indeed, the baroque has a tendency towards monumentality, I mean to take it it’s a classic architecture but monumentality and of course and now thinking eh eh of course thinking about this with these characteristics that we could find so with Domenic that effectively the question of the light which is eminently baroque because we are talking about the skylight effects that good that Bernini himself can use the chapel in the chapel corner in Sant Andrea Sant Andrea in the Quirinale and then precisely these effects we will find then still good that exacerbated precisely in the Germanic architecture of the eighteenth century eh Bavarian churches and sanctuaries are a festival we could say of eh of these effects of these light effects but bar I also thought about the use see this is very basic eh but also la la la the use of ceramics eh m clear we talk a lot about ceramics because in modernism because it is widely used and of course in the Catalan baroque ceramics is very, very, very present m because with the arrabadors in the and it is and it is very present at a popular level in the so-called kitchens tiles of the trades, but we have this, the arrabadors of the convalescent home, especially because the historic part of the hall where we have those magnificent stories of Saint Pau, eh, we also have a whole Franciscan cycle, eh, who studied the doctora sílvia canalda in the convent of sant francesc de terrassa also done like this with ceramic and clear and if we go outside of catalunya then the whole tradition of de la suj of portuguese then it also refers us to this to this use because so so baroque of ceramics and then also this issue of theatricality or to make an impact once again with this issue of theatricality because we find it according to the buildings eh then the music palace is a more ready building to say- in a way, eh, and that’s a natural cone because the Baroque sometimes or maybe when we previously referred to altarpieces, eh, we’ve always associated them with this Baroque because it’s more popular, but the fact is that there are very large altarpieces that are not popular art or the altarpiece of the miracle eh it is not popular art it is a great eh scenography is we could say that this brings this idea of the persuasive baroque to the eh almost the paroxysm but it is that the concept of the sacred theater of the sacrum theater or the theater of the sacred it is very present even with the theological works of the time this identification because of the church there are concepts circus ch atrum sacrum that is made directly very much reference because to this question eh scenographic or this question eh theatrical eh me here in Catalonia there is a there is a space there is a bueno a building but I like to talk about space very very curious because it is a space eh we have quite a few eh baroque spaces yes they are very worth it eh but here you see exactly because this function is also scenographic and the specific incidence that the light etc. etc. which is the cave of Sant Ignasi with Enresa I’m talking not so much about the not so much about the church more more the says but del diu sin no properly of the cave that the cave in short then is to put a facade eh then in the space of de la balma where presumably Saint Ignatius is there if he would have been and would have written the spiritual exercises and in that space that it is between the proper la la la the facade and the balma eh well we are talking about a this of a space that does not go beyond where I am until up to the wall a small altar is simply built ‘alabaster with a single scene where it represents Saint Ignatius presumably writing the spiritual exercises and it was a space designed to be strictly in penumbra and there was only one there and there is a small window that like an oculus open to the ‘exterior and this oculus illuminates precisely the area of the altarpiece of the small altarpiece which is also not made of wood but of bastra eh and for me it is the light game or the baroque space eh where where the light then has this it has this incidence more relationship we could say saving obviously all the distances in the world with the Roman baroque very well yes yes there is an aspect that we have not touched much I think to myself maybe it is a little adventurous that is the the religious theme is to say Domenec for better or for worse has an education let’s say very secular in the family sense as well as when he went to secondary school and received the lessons of Xavier Lloren and Barba who was a very important character now maybe we can read and say that’s strange but at that time he was a very important character who rather taught to look at the world in a very naturalistic and open way and not so much the religious aspect and on the other hand the baroque in some way has always had this guigan almost indissociable with the religious tradition and in the and in the era of modernism there were also these tendencies towers and strikes and the whole the vision m a bit of that of the Christian culture and such of which we say- Ne Domenic was pretty much on the sidelines, I don’t know if that would give him a little bit of de de de de de de to know he the baroque was seen as another element for but no no no no it certainly didn’t give it a deep meaning until it was a a tool another instrument for architecture I don’t know if this is true or this maybe I I this could condition look at the popular baroque maybe not because it is what is linked to living religiosity so to speak with the historical baroque maybe there there could be more distance, but yes, I mean, it is possible that this has everything to do with it, eh, for example, César Martinell is well, much closer to the religiosity of the popular baroque, no, and maybe this also helps him to recover it, eh this this can be this is is true um it’s also true that the clear this line the other line that was mentioned the line that connects the popular baroque with the avant-garde or with modernity with with with for example with miró foix eh this line that we look at the Baroque more as one, that is, more from the point of admiration for the forms it is able to generate, rather than towards the religious content, this line is also there and in fact it is repeated, yes it is repeated even to m in the reception of Gaudí that in the end it was the Sagrada Família in the 20s, erm, the people who admired him were mainly very religious people, not basically, and when Gaudí dies and that famous book by Francisco Pujols is published, not the vision artistic and religious by antoni gaudí which is an old catholic book or it says that the holy family is eh it says it is the funeral of catholicism that we catalans have done it says it is like fattening a pig to kill it no it says it this and therefore it is an assessment of the architecture of anti-Catalan enjoyment the surrealists who make from there and that and which is made in Paris above all is a is a directly blasphemous interpretation let’s say no that they like the link of enjoy with with with with the one with them they see it as repressed desires they see there forms eh almost obscene no eh or so what happens is true this happens that that the baroque because of its formal strength eh because of this proliferation of forms that it has eh can be appreciated at the margin eh of of this fidelity to a certain popular religiosity but at the time when it was most alive at the time when this liturgical use was most alive it is likely that this distances eh domic and montaner from the more popular aspect eh of the baroque yes, let’s see, on the one hand, it’s clear that when I say that most of us when we talk about baroque or think with baroque, we think with a religious air, which is not entirely fair because, well, yes, we think with the sixteenth century and we think with versailles or do we think with the grand palaces or do we also think of baroque eh popular baroque before I was talking about this profile of the populations today we would find civil architecture eh and even the origin of popular architecture eh so what do we see and what do we begin to appreciate nowadays, what are the vineyard huts, the walls of the market, of course I defend that they have an origin in the Baroque because that is when it is the 11th century fundamentally so when a change takes place fundamental in the landscape in the agricultural landscape eh in some way then the bueno the whole issue of the emphytheus of the access m this access then more majority aa the land bueno will entail behavior will entail other uses and therefore even the variation the variation of the landscape for example without going farther and now I will return because it seems that it has nothing to do with the cultivation of the olive tree with a place like the garrigues or let’s think with the garrigues we think with the cultivation of the olive tree fundamentally because it is implemented the 18th century and it is the landscape of the garrigues with olive trees because it would also be a landscape a landscape of the time but of course this link between the baroque and the religious is fundamentally given because the baroque has been considered art of the counter-reformation and because of this identification with the Catholic reaction to what was at that time the challenge the Protestant challenge and because the Catholic church also intensified its effective in an extraordinary way with the creation of new religious orders eh with the incorporation of new cults with express canonizations and beatifications eh and well I mean this means that obviously there is also an indisputable flowering of the art of religious art but it is true that from the from the point of view of contemporaneity precisely because this multiplicity of forms is this plastic multiplicity that the baroque has provided, so clearly it suggests eh multiples eh suggests multiple worlds because from the melted cheese that I could imagine so from there so to speak somehow eh up to any eh up to any so kind of delirium of surrealist delirium eh it’s clear very well well for pure propaganda of Ana I will mention a baroque episode that is a wonder that is inside the palace of music the palace of music, as he analyzed, he is Domenica Amador, not today, he is not here, it is a space that, since it has no space, develops vertically, and as you said, this idea of verticality is a very baroque idea, very keep creating up and doing it when you see heaven and the and the brothers in sam am munich because they do those churches that you don’t know if that is true or not is good and all the part of the wonder that is the la la the area from the south of Germany and then the domain as it has to freeze all this because it has no space creates the staircase which has this other reason to distract the fatigue of those who have to climb the 7 meters to go to the plater etc. but then this verticality generates the need to create a space because if the staircase has been closed with vaults, well, like a staircase in a neighbor’s house, then this is invented to hide the staircase to go up to the second floor and creates this space in the height and it does so by creating a baroque interior facade with balustrades that form a curved shape that could be any palace with a painting of the uncle on the roof or with a staircase of any palace of these bueno one one small detail of baroque domenec but I think it will be worth it that the domenec year has this kind of deep and strong structure that is not the most trite thing that has been said of de d but that these relationships are sought with history with architecture and as you said david with ai eh raül with this very complicated subject that basically the same moment is when the philosophy of history begins and the ii the history of art proper ii of course this is really a very, very important moment that should be captured with this let’s end this act [Applause] thank you van