Rowan Sorrell is the founder, director, and head of trails at Bike Park Wales.
In this episode, we sit down with UK mountain biking legend Rowan Sorrell to discuss everything from the evolution of mountain bike trail centres to becoming a World Champion downhill racer. Rowan shares stories from his early years, racing downhill in the sport’s early days, and how modern bikes have dramatically improved the riding experience.
We explore the founding and development of Bike Park Wales, drawing inspiration from the iconic Whistler Bike Park. Rowan provides insights into the intricate process of building and planning trails, addressing the early challenges of creating flow in trail design, and emphasising the importance of sustainable trail building. We also delve into the “no dig, no ride” ethos, the future of trail design, accommodating e-bikes at trail centres, trail advocacy, and more.
Rowan shares his experience of becoming a Masters Downhill World Champion and unveils some exciting secret plans for Bike Park Wales.
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Chapters
00:00:00 Introduction to Rowan Sorrell
00:06:48 First mountain bike specific trail centres
00:14:30 There were NO BERMS!?
00:23:30 How do you plot trail locations?
00:29:45 AG1
00:32:10 Racing early downhill world cup races
00:36:38 The Whistler bike park inspiration
00:43:40 Is ‘No Dig No Ride’ valid?
00:55:34 How the Bikepark Wales founders met
01:05:06 DREAM COFFEE COMP
01:07:50 The first trails at Bikepark Wales
01:12:45 Do people respect bikeparks?
01:20:19 The future of MTB trail design
01:29:29 Rowan’s dream yard
01:34:37 UK Trail advocacy situation
01:42:24 Becoming Masters World Champion
01:52:50 Bikepark Wale HUGE announcement!
01:58:17 LIKE & SUBSCRIBE!
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Edited By: Doug Tucker, onlyflightdispatch.com
#TheRideCompanion #mountainbiking #mtb
so what are the secrets to being Master’s will champ what’s training look like other than the injuries yeah they’re not you don’t need them you don’t you don’t want to have to have an injury to give you that motivation do you have to have a world class um bike park and jumps in your garden or would you say it’s not a necessity [Music] s welcome to the Royal Companion where today we’ve got Rowan Sor Round of Applause please thank you well done thanks for joining us dude good to be here good to see you yeah and you yeah absolutely so this is sort of part of like um we’ve obviously had two3 of two thirds is that fair two thirds of the B Wells team on half because Rowan’s partner is also of course is that fair but but she’s not here now so okay yeah is that fair that’s right so yeah my wife was involved like there four of us were all involved in setting up Yeah by part Wales and founding it um but Liz now my wife she isn’t part of the current setup so yeah cool you kind of right just having all right nice few few few did you listen to the two the other two thirds um podcast yeah they got it all right it was all historically accurate yeah it’s good excellent good stuff good stuff anything not right we silenced Anna’s mind apparently there’s a few people complaining about that but oh really yeah it was good though it it was amazing I loved that podcast I loved the um I felt like I was there hearing hearing there’s sort of that entrepreneurial spirit I feel like in everyone where you can imagine like setting up a bike park and it’s kind of dream dreamt about it exactly to actually go and do it is really gnarly really really cool yeah I posted a clip just the other day actually about why it you know I think the I think it was titled like why is B pot wells in Mera tville was something like that and loads of comments underneath were like really positive again saying like such an inspirational story and blah blah blah blah blah and I think it really is it’s probably one that will go down in history especially in UK mountain biking yeah fair to say yeah I think I I think it’s helped like develop the whole scene yeah you know if you jump back in time to when we set up 11 years ago you know the landscape was different at that time so yeah yeah definitely I do feel like that good if there’s a movie in the future who would play you do you think I haven’t got a clue I’ve been called a lot of things over time so so where did you grow up then uh in South Wales yeah so I grew up in a village called Ken which is just outside of Newport and that’s like as you go over the Seven Bridge on the M4 it’s the first city you come to and I’m like 45 50 minute drive from bik par Wales like Southeast Wales yeah okay all right so did you grow up in a family that was outdoorsy mountain biking what’s the I don’t know what it’s like around there is it like Countryside or is it more city um I grew up in it’s a village but like you know I grew up in like a a Housing state in Village but it’s on i’ lived on top of a hill okay and I do think that’s kind of like had a bearing on you know like my life I suppose in a way but um yeah my parents were really into the outdoors like going walking like no interest in bikes but I guess like biking was still you when I got into the sport I feel like I’ve like seen most of the growth of the sport and the evolution of the sport so it’s still quite new then um but yeah just like living on top of a hill and when eventually you got a bike and you’re you’re playing around with bikes and your kids we were riding downhill you know we were riding we were doing urban street races before like urban street races were a thing so yeah I think it’s that’s always um yeah it got me into bikes in that way right did you have to build everything that you rode yeah yeah see I think there’s something in that I think creating the scene when you’re younger you mean yeah creating like the trail Network well absolutely I think there’s something in building more than I don’t know then the no dig no ride thing I think means more than just someone has to dig it to ride it yeah yeah on the back of so on on this hill like on the back we had a little set of woods so it started off like as a kid i’ just you play in the woods everyone does and I just be exploring and the woods so always like looking around and there’s all these crazy Banks and stuff when you’re a little kid and that’s before I got into bikes so then once you started getting interested in bikes you’re like oh let’s go and take these up in the woods and yeah um they’re really small like it but it was on a quite a steep hill and yeah we just started carving out tracks in there and uh like even now I think what we had back then as like young kids were were pretty good tracks yeah they were very natural we just used like what was there in the shape of the hill and um we had one track called 17 seconds so gives you an idea like how short they were but that 17 seconds was rad you yeah and you just repeat over and over again yeah yeah yeah and we’d have you know we obviously built like a number of these short short tracks and trails so sure something in short tracks as well isn’t it it’s good but obviously you then had access to bigger Hills all around you yeah definitely so this was like I said just off the back of where I lived and that was kind of the stuff you could you could access and um like play and ride after school like I probably got into I was like 14 15 yeah um but yeah not too far from where we were we had pretty big Hills so one of the ones like it’s well known now but before it had official trails and stuff we’d still ride out to Kuman yeah so there’s a long ride it take us like an hour and a half to Pedal there um you ride down the hill once and ride home um yeah that and then there was another spot like not so far wentward which is again big you know pretty big hill so we always have like bigger stuffff that was Within Reach yeah so Kung Khan didn’t have a trail Center at that point no no no yeah this is kind of long time before that what was the first I think you’re the person to ask this question what was the first Trail Center you knew of heard of or had anything to do with so the first Trail Center that I really I guess the first one I rode was Kuman after it had been built but I was aware of like you know the birthplace of Trail centers was Kody Brandon ah was is that so yeah yeah so North Wales okay I didn’t actually know that that was the first one yeah right yeah that’s right so it’s a guy um he worked for Forest commission at the time um and he sort of had this brainchild of creating a you know purpose built Trail for mountain biking um David Davis his name is and yeah he he’s not in in the scene now but he was like really well known I think he’s got an MBE or something off the back of doing it you know CU he kind of created this model which you know we’ve ended up with Trail centers right across England Wales and Scotland um but yeah it was a number of years later that sort of concept like rolled out and then it came to South Wales and we had Kuman and Avan aroid so yeah that was my like first exposure to that type of riding out of interest do you know what his angle was was it was it a biking angle was it like a a tourism angle or was it a I think it was primarily like biking like understanding that there was a need to create something to get people out there he also wanted to create something that was like pretty sustainable um and then obviously with that is is the tourism and getting people out and and bringing people to areas that maybe they otherwise wouldn’t travel to yeah so that’s where you get like The Wider benefits do you know the history of that like what obviously that was the first one in the UK what’s if you go further back do you know like where was the first Trail Center and Trail Center is really uh is a UK con B concept yeah for sure you know like every country’s got their their own story you know and their own development of the sport and development of mountain biking but you know in the UK we had cross country racing you know Downhill Racing like in the sort of mid late 90s and then you know Trail Center sort of kicked started that like more mass participation I suppose yeah and then obviously there was a sports evolved like there was a need for more and that’s how things have progressed on from there interesting so so most countries have sort of copied the UK model that was built by someone like d David David Davis Davis yeah I would say so I’d say a lot of uh countries have then looked at that as a model and taken it and applied it themselves you know outside of the ski resort model you know where you’ve got a ski lift and you can you can run a bike park they have come obviously way before a bik park but I met a guy um became really good friends with him did did a lot of work for him who’s from Czech Republic right and he came over to Wales quite a long time ago now and he just he he’ heard about it online or or read about it and he came and visited like North Wales and South Wales rode all these spots and was like I need to do this where I’m from yeah and he like took the best parts of that um took it to his village in Czech Republic which is just like a sleepy rural town like no tourism at all a lot of unemployment like really difficult sort of conditions if you grew up there as a young person um he got in touch with me and and said could you know would I be up for working and his English was terrible that time it’s just like this mad email I just remember like it was just something about it you’re like this feels really genuine I need to get on the plane and go and meet this guy cuz he’s like you need to get on the plane and come and meet me and so that’s what happened and we just went to his local pub and spoke about it and he showed me his Hill and yeah and then I got involved with that and that was amazing just to see that journey in that in a different context and like going back there they went from I think they had one like sort of B&B type place and then a few years later with he like he was a really driven guy you know he’s really sort of made this um amazing facility and then you go back a few years later and there’s like 300 bed spaces and like three pubs and bikes everywhere you know and it’s it’s just totally changed that area and I think that’s what’s rad about bikes now it you can do that yeah true what when did when did you become motivated to do that like you you visited Kim Khan saw kind of the potential at what point did you start sort of thinking about track building and doing that stuff um a lot earlier I think than that was it so probably subconsciously some of it like my first first have a trip to France was like a yeah an eye opening moment you know you go to Le and that was before um YouTube before social media so you don’t know what’s out there it’s just like you’ve heard that it’s a good place to go and ride downhill but you can’t view it in the same way you can now so yeah actually go in there it’s like I think it my first this my second time abroad ever with a bike yeah um you’re young yeah yeah I was I think I was 20 yes it wasn’t super young but yeah and um blew my mind this is the dream you know chairlifts downhill bikes and the riding was really good um so I think straight away I was thinking like where I live the topography there’s there’s something there like you could have chairlifts across valleys you know I sort of young inexperienced but like that big picture idea of like well why couldn’t you have Port Dole in South Wales in The Valleys so I guess straight away there’s sort of some visions and ideas but I didn’t know how to like navigate any of that at that point um and then I went to Union leads and met up with um Phil Sakina you know Phil yeah top L um and he was already like sort of getting into Trail building a little bit himself and long story short we ended up building the first ever four cross track I was say yeah four cross track was 2002 that was right um so Phil like had the the contract and he said you know could I get involved or would I like to get involved help them out do the testing jump building and all that so that was my first exposure to like doing it I suppose and that point it was just a sideline thing that I went and did but straight away I was like I love this I’m into this you know I feel like it’s something I can bring something to as well yeah so that was definitely like a a moment where I felt I have a skill set that I can use in a in a way going forwards but still at that point you know it all had to unfold these things and it takes time and um yeah after that I ended up working in Mojo for a few years right um and then I think Martin mentioned it before me and Martin ended up working together building The Kuman downhill track with dunk as well um and that was I would say that’s probably the turning point then where I was like okay this is something we just had this like fixed short-term contract we all jumped at the opportunity but we didn’t know what we’re going to do afterwards so I guess it Stu the motivation almost starts off like you’re literally building stuff that you want to ride aren’t you it’s like it starts off being like I want to build a track doesn’t it yeah and then it slowly moves towards a I don’t know like it’s strikes me how much difference um Bart Wales was made locally like at what point did that did you notice that it was making a big difference when you started building these Trail centers and stuff yeah I probably noticed that um through the work I was doing my trail Building Company yeah so before bik part Wales go going back it’s like 20 years ago 2004 I set up um back on track so Trail Building Company and we got the work at that point was generally like Trail Center based work so you weren’t necessarily building what I wanted to ride yeah so straight away like that was a difference between you going out and building with your mates doing what you want to build to like this is a job this is a career I’ve got to deliver what the client wants but I always had kind of a vision of trying to bring try and bring those two slightly closer together than where they were okay um and what was it though like what were you been asked to build and what were you trying to build okay at that point so it’s probably quite hard to imagine this right now but when I first started that company and started Trail building there were no burms on any trails in the UK right like genuinely like if you went to a trail Center there were zero BMS whatever country you know whe they’re in Scotland England or Wales right you might get them on a downhill RAC trck yeah but none and I was why do you think that is was it just not a thing or it was just time the vision and the concept of like if you like those forefathers of the sport which they’ve done an amazing job to create this um network of trails that got everyone into it but they didn’t see that as like a way of doing things and the trail being sustainable right yeah so I just had a different view on it I was like we can combine these things we can add so Trails didn’t flow massively like imagine you going like carrying load of speed and then you’d have to go around a flat 180 turn scrub all your speed off go around it like quite awkward ride and then go again and then stop and go around the corner and go again so like in the simplest terms I was like well let’s get some like downhill bmed corners and you’re going to start getting that sort of momentum and flow and flow Trails weren’t the thing like flow trails are still now it’s just it’s very normal but I think back then that didn’t exist so it’s kind of like that early vision of like how can we add some of the feeling an experience you have when you’re riding downhill without it being gnarly and bring it to the masses yeah so it’s like you can ride it on trail bikes but we’re bringing that like reward buz sensation you know and putting it into those types of trails we were talking maybe an episode or so ago about the style of bike that was around before Oh man an Ur what we call a trail bike now so at that point You’re Building Trail centers or Trail centers you know style that’s pre- dropper isn’t it yeah what what are people riding yeah yeah that’s that’s true yeah we’re still at like the tail end of they were more axi orientated bikes they quite quite flimsy okay um so the trails maybe did suit the bikes better at the time like you look at them now with our current technology and you’re like yeah those Trails just really don’t challenge us but obviously you’re being more challenged cuz the bikes were [ __ ] yeah yeah yeah um so there’s an element of that yeah I I must I I was laughing so much when I’d listen to Weaver with you guys and when he was talking about he was talking about the his early days of riding and it just brought me back and it was so funny like chain devices that don’t keep chains on and like every ride you’d have a punk you know you got tubes you got tires at flimsy and it’s just like you delete that from your memory cuz it’s so painful every run one of you would be fixing your bike it’s so bizarre cuz like from living here you travel 4 hours to go to a track that you you’ve heard that you’ve built a track this is literally what you you built brekford didn’t you yeah yeah brekford was like I just heard rumors about it I’d seen one picture in dirt magazine and I’d heard rumors that Rowan I didn’t know you i’ heard rumors that Rowan had built a track there so then we set off to go to breakfa or wherever it was that we set off and then you’re like just riddled with punctures and he’s like like you D you travel so far and then you get one lap on a track that someone’s built like you compare that to today’s mountain biking is true it’s very much like a um type one fun it used to be type two yeah yeah yeah yeah you’re can have two punctures you’re going to have the chain off so true yeah it was I was with someone the other day it wasn’t really Mountain bik they more a moto guy and he was asking the exact same question he was like oh the ebike I was sh him my ebike he’s oh it’s quite heavy like did you get loads of punctures I was like honestly mate like touch wood couldn’t tell you last time I had a puncture it’s like months and months and months and months ago and he couldn’t believe it that like we’ve got to that place now I think to some extent I know down or races are he take for granted though like how good it is now now you don’t even worry about do yeah that’s what I mean you almost need something to just like take you back to it you know like reminiscing with something you’re like we’ve come so far and it’s not been that long really in the scheme of things you know it’s a young sport but bikes are so good now and and like what you can ride on those bikes is incredible like we’re riding on just a standard trail bike you can ride any downhill track that used you know we would have raced on or even currently people do race on so I think that’s been part of it you know the evolution of bikes has meant that trailers have had to kind of try and keep up with that as well yeah I remember really riding um you don’t really ever do it now but riding like careful I never really ride careful now if I’m honest I actually don’t ride careful at all I smash into stuff I don’t care but I remember going to Aven yeah and doing the climb and you’re like God this climb is long like it’s really good climb really wellb built climb but um it’s long and I’ve really paid for my descent yeah and on The Descent like that like I’m like breaking the whole time like picking lines like being really careful I just don’t want a rear puncture yeah I’ve got like ardence on or something skinny W Tire and it’s just it’s such a different thing isn’t it yeah it’s changed a lot when you think about it yeah it has interesting so when you so when you were building like that breakfa is a good example for me because that was one of the first images I saw where I was like w this is this is these aren’t BMS that you could build by hand these are like machine BMS um did you surface it and stuff like what what things have changed as you’ve Trails sure yeah braford is the first project where I guess I had that free reign and the opportunity to bring some of those ideas I was saying try and bring them to the table um I work with a great guy from the forestry there who’s he’s he’s an engineer and he got in touch with me and you know he said would you like to work with us his name is Brian Rumble absolute Legend of a blo honestly I learned a lot from him right and I’ve always I think that’s think I’ve always worked with really good people and you learn so much yeah from working with people um so he had like all of the um kind of like the engineering background like knew about how soil types Rock drainage all of that stuff which I was just a mountain biker you know I hadn’t gone and studied Trail building no built tracks in the woods and then it was that sort of mesh of my enthusiasm Vision you know try and and setting out all the lines and like his sort of engineering and working together that that made that work I think and then you take that stuff forward with you so like every project you’re you’re learning like I still learn all the time on site now you we can be doing something new at the bike park and you’ll pick up something we haven’t done before so what was the process like back then like in the way of so the what’s it called bre bref breakfast so how did you go about plotting where the Trail’s going to go and yeah yeah yeah that’s yeah that’s a good question massive learning no doubt from going from a shovel to using Machinery yeah yeah so how I started out um obviously the the projects then were quite different because it was setting out we’d have a massive Forest breakfast huge and we were building like cross country Loops in it so you got loads of space makes it a bit of a challenge to get your head around the whole area cuz it’s so big yeah so I get out there drive as much as I could you know whatever you could get up to on road um cycle as much as I could on any like path I went through and then you just hik in you sort of learning it so it’s a combination of looking at maps and physically getting out there and then I’d use like GPS to like plot interesting bits and start to try and put some ideas and lines together okay how’d that work then um so yeah obviously not with a phone yeah but um but we had like handheld GPS units that you plug into a computer afterwards right so you could you could track yourself yeah two sticks it’s like Flags like digital Flags you’re the woods yeah yeah but but I’d say more so like I’d use that and it’s a tool and it’s a good tool but I’d just be trying to build a map in my head you’re trying to like like I always think that’s what I find the most useful just learn as much as you can and put those pieces together in your head at that stage I guess you’re going to be driving the machine anyway or you’re going to be on site anyway going to be onsite yeah yeah I think yeah going back question like the process after that was certainly back then the way I would always work with like a third party so if you if you’re like as employed as a trail designer yeah and then we’d we’d set out all of the rootes sort of put together the ideas and the design for it and then we’d work with a third party who I’ve got no connection to right you so they’ve been like employed by the client usually and then you’ve got to try and manage that Digger driver and tell them how to build it it so that was who are not necessarily bike people normally exactly yeah yeah so that’s how I like that’s how Trail building started for me and I think that is how Trail building was at that time like everything until then that’s that’s how Trails were built okay and I quite quickly realize like that isn’t the future um that hasn’t got the longevity that’s not going to get us where we need to go okay okay because there’s only so much you can teach someone in a couple of months and then you’re working with someone completely different somewhere else yeah um so yeah eventually the the company had sort of developed so we could employ our own staff so I always just then went to employing Riders who didn’t know how to drive a digger and and develop let them develop um because the other way around I tried it the other way around like employer Digger driver and and get them but is much harder because they need to be able to see you can talk and explain stuff and wave your arms around and and they’re like yeah I know what you mean yeah so yeah specify everything I guess if someone’s in a digger and they can’t ride you have to specify angles radiuses everything has to be like and you might think you’ve done that and you’ve explained it like perfectly and then you go away for two hours you come back you’re like we’ll start again you know in that early there was early sorry to interrupt you did you know those in those early years of doing it and managing teams that weren’t necessarily buers that there was a future or did it feel like disconnected from what you actually were doing before does that make sense it’s like you’re out doing it with a shovel or whatever or on your own and then all of a sudden you you’ve got a team of people did it ever feel like disconnected from what you actually wanted to be doing um I think I was always aware that we had we had to deliver in line with like the brief if the client was set as a brief you know so I was trying to slowly raise the bar yeah but you can’t go from there to there in you know one step you had a vision already I had a vision of like progressing people that riding yeah yeah and in terms of what we’re trying to put on the ground like a progression of riding but forestry commission as they were then it’s now nrw in Wales but you know collectively if you like the forestry commissions right they have a fairly risk averse you know take on on on this so it was trying to get the balance where they’re going to be happy cuz they’re my employer but I wanted ryers to go there and be like stoked on it um and I think you know we navigated that in those early projects quite well and that’s what sort of enabled things to progress and move more towards what we’ve got these days okay I suppose at that stage as well um we haven’t talked about it yet but you’re obviously a really high level Rider you were racing you were so you had to kind of you don’t want to put your name to something that isn’t good do you no no that’s it and that’s that’s tough cuz I’m not getting to build exactly what I want to yeah but yeah there’s definitely a an element of that you know you want to be proud of your work yeah that’s what we all want isn’t it we want job satisfaction um yeah but I think those experiences from riding and traveling and Vis racing you know even in different places you can bring all that to the table and I I think it it was only ever a help not a hindrance yeah yeah yeah be interesting then to fill in some gaps from up to where we are now in the life of ran sorl which is the starting a trail Building Company so before that then yeah racing riding what is your career looking like at that point as far as riding and just come out of uni there’s a lot to fill in there so basically tell us about your life up until age 20 cuz we’ve not like you said we’ve not talked about actual racing and riding you got Stripes haven’t you I’ve You Got Stripes I don’t want to make you say it you got some Stripes yeah yeah recent Stripes yeah they Stripes all the same Stripes all the same yeah yeah I reckon World Champ in the house too I know more on the World Champ and the stripes after this 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so yeah where were we the stripes we’re going to well we’re going to talk about the run up to the stripes maybe we’re going to talk about like yeah racing when okay so you sort of briefly spoke about finding biking through living on top of a hill and then yeah what was the journey like from then yeah so my first tough questions on the today I got into M Viking because again it’s like I’ve been doing it a long time and um I didn’t know about downhill when I started I think there just wasn’t much of it yeah so my first we always used to just play around and then someone in school was doing a cross country race so I went and did like two or three cross country races which were kind of Forest De that sort of area not far from me yeah loved it to be honest it was great like but I always enjoyed the Downs you know it’s like trying to overtake as many people as you can on the down and then you get smoked on the UPS so yeah that that was kind of how it started out and then uh someone in school was like oh there’s a downhill race going to be um and it’s actually not far from where bik P Wales is now it’s just on the next Hill over it Dragon what was it no it like pedal hounds yeah there you go yeah my first race as well yeah so yeah went along to that like someone’s dad in school took us all up we camp for the weekend you know it was proper it was so good like memories were a part weekend were amazing um yeah and you get to see all the pros that’s the thing like it’s such a great sport you know you turn up and there’s no barriers yeah you’re there you can watch these guys so I remember I’m pretty correct me if I’m wrong but I think Tom Edwards is Cade Edward’s Dad yeah yeah so he was on MBK team then I remember he was there and he was like just Manning down this like big rough straight and we were all like you never saw it did you there was no social media you can’t even imagine before it’s very difficult social media now so it has like I think in a way it almost has more of an impression on you definitely yeah you’re not exposed to it um yeah did one down race I was fully rigid cany breaks you and uh rattled my way down but that was it you know I’m like well this is my thing now this is it that’s the bit I’ve been enjoying and now I know I can race so yeah kind of got into racing never did lots of races when I was younger CU I couldn’t get around to them okay so I sort of like grew into it almost as I got older and I have my own means um Dragon Dill series was a big sort of thing for us like living in in South Wales when that kicked off in 99 because the tracks were were proper you know they’re pretty challenging yeah I was kind of into my strides then and um Jason Carpenter used to run the series he pretty much like employ me as crash test D me so if he built something d a jump or a steep section whatever it’s like well come and test crash on it usually yeah but did have Dragon series for years um yeah and just it chipped away and then eventually like I never ever thought when I started riding it was a possibility right because it didn’t have the pathways it does now but eventually I ended up doing World Cups yeah but came to him quite late did my first one when I was like 24 and oh wow did until I was about 30 or yeah um but loved it like absolutely loved it you know full Privateer you know the way things are now I how were you making a living back then to go to the races so it started out I was I was working at um Mojo for a while and then I actually when I was kind of in the middle of my world cup um racing if you like I was running the trail Building Company so it was tough just because there’s a lot like running a business is difficult yeah so it was I was balancing a few things but yeah I loved every minute of it so like the starting the business was funding you going racing as well exactly and a good marketing toour yeah bit yeah yeah for sure yeah yeah it helped I think it yeah it helped me develop the business it helped me see new places if I went and did a race somewhere I’d always try and tag on like visiting some other places so I could see like what bikeing scene was like and what people were riding what they’re building and then like try and bring some of those ideas back W that’s cool really cool what’ you reckon a single out of all your travels what was the single biggest thing you took back from uh great question from going away and seeing what other people had to back to Wales kind of I mean I I saw a lot of things which really impressed me and I thought were great but I also saw a lot of things which I didn’t think we delivered very well so it’s almost like like the negative side was as important as a positive side and I think it’s because at that point everywhere with biking was a secondary thing so we’ve got a ski lift we’ve got a ski season we’ll do some bike you know we’ll open up the lift we’ll do some biking and not many places had like a sole focus on biking right so it took time but like that idea of being able to have something where you solely focus on the product of riding and there’s no compromises yeah I think that is the long-term benefit that I got that that was like ultimately that’s what bik part Wales is yeah um and also the lack of provision for trail bikes elsewhere at that time so yeah again seeing like in the UK we were like ahead of the curve with what had already been done with Trail centers and then just trying to continue on that Evolution like make mountain biking evolve let like let the official sites help people’s riding evolve yeah yeah totally makes a lot of sense yeah I think I I I I really remember going going away and seeing the reason I ask is because I remember going away and seeing how it was in other countries and I’m like I really was just in a tiny bubble here in in the Sur Hills for instance and I feel like back then everyone probably felt like they were in these bubbles like I remember watching probably videos of you riding um uh Welsh Dragon series and just thinking God the downhill there is so much gnarlier than what we have here and then you do the same thing again and you go to France and you’re like oh my goodness yeah yeah keeps going yeah it’s fascinating isn’t it it’s it’s like weird to think I think I think going to Whistler is for most mountain bikers that’s a it’s a moment you it strikes you doesn’t it it’s like wow you know these guys have got such an amazing like set of it it’s an amazing Hill but like what they’ve done with it as well yeah so I first went there and I think I was like 25 or something so I I just started um the trail Building Company so yeah that that was quite important I think to go to wiler and see that’s kind of the best example in the world I think yeah evolve loads from then as well I’ve never been to Whistler I’ll be honest yeah it has it has but it was kicking ass then you know it’s like it has evolved and there’s more but it hasn’t evolved at the rate you might think you I think like back then it was already the the the key stuff you wanted to go and ride was there you know your big jump lines like they have more of them now but yeah the stuff that you couldn’t get elsewhere what was it that struck you the most I like the variety but I got to say at that point in time it was aine yeah okay because there was nothing like it anywhere else like no one had got a good jump line like that so the jump line like specifically on aine what was about it that was so impressive um drop in okay no pedal no break yeah Flo it’s like how safe and easy they are right yeah yeah and riding with people who weren’t super confident on jumps back home so like with within our group we’d have them you know mix of riders and some of them wouldn’t be super confident jumpers and just watching them ride that trail twice three times and it’s like bang it’s clicked in already and just the progression that they get so yeah I think have the consistency of all the jumps yeah nothing’s like crazy or going to catch you up yeah so that did you did you feel like you wanted to bring that back to Wales definitely but um we weren’t going to get that opportunity you know certainly at that time kind of yeah yeah but yeah of course everyone wants to write that I think I’ve never ridden it but anyone who’s been to whistle have you ridden aine yeah you’ve rid 8470 right yes but in the wind okay in the wind different experience I feel like it’s actually true there’s not really wind and wind and rain sheltered yeah it was different is that kind of the idea obviously is a47 is like a version of yeah it’s like a a condensed version I would say okay you know the name is a little bit of a nod to it so A8 force mty is the Dual carriageway that you drive up to get to B part Welles but um yeah clearly like with the a it’s a bit of a nod to to a lineing Whistler and I you know I think it’s just a compliment to them isn’t it you know everyone around the world really has heard about it or they’ve ridden it and you never hear badw said about it don’t trail and I think it’s hard to achieve what they’ve been doing it so much longer so you don’t build a jump line and generally like get it nailed first time they take development and tweaking and time and that Line’s been there for a long long time like 20 I think 20 plus years really yeah something like you went quite early into its life yeah but it’s still been there a while estblished see I would have loved to have gone back then CU I only ever saw I I went and but by the time I I went to Whistler I’d seen a lot of bike parks and Trail centers and what have you i’ already they’d already come up but I feel like when you went it was pretty early on right it was like yeah now saying that I’m thinking it must be a lot longer than 20 years cuz it was 20 years ago I went and and it wasn’t a new Trail like it had been there yeah a while like it was it was like this thing that people talked about back then Ali just like jumps down a hill and I remember what looking at like travel features in dirt or in Ember UK and them just talking about like you you literally can’t believe it there’s four minutes or something M of jumps and turns you are you serious there four you’re used to like you travel a long way to ride three jumps in a row wouldn’t you yeah for sure yeah yeah it’s just un unbelievable to think actually I wish you could go back and also on the on the bikes back then good building would have meant a lot more if you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah they weren’t getting you out of trouble were they no no they definitely weren’t they definitely W so who were your first like some of the bigger clients that you started working with on the on the company when you launched launched it when you started actually bringing in mountain bikers as well um for the for the track building yeah it was generally like the public sector so Forest commission Wales and Forest commission England were definitely our like regular clients and they were the ones where you likely to get the bigger projects from yeah because they they own all of the forestry land um but we worked for a number of local authorities as well uh councils on um variety of different types of projects we did uh up in Lancashire we did a whole load of work up there which was for the local Authority MH um but eventually it sort of snowball and we started doing more for private clients as well all right okay like who’s are you allowed to say who’s an example of a private client yeah yeah do you mean like single person uh no I mean like the private sector we we did two we’ve done a few projects for single people I will I will name check one person please yeah well not welln but like well known in South Wales like so did we did a little build for a guy called Hugh so Hugh Lloyd Lewis and yeah Lloyd Lewis he’s he’s a hell of a character really really nice guy say Tom Jones and um he decided he wanted a pump track to ride and there because this was before like pump tracks were you know in more locations and he wanted to ride it through the winter so he rented a unit and we built a pump truck track in his unit yeah which serious cost to him just pay him for the rent IND pump track yeah yeah so he’s really tight that was the only thing it was quite a small unit so it was tight but yeah we built that was a a mega project and he was good enough to say you know you guys come and ride it whenever you want so we not only got to do like a nice little project but so just celebrity the back uh no he’s not a celebrity okay no no just a wealthy BL yeah yeah yeah okay um yeah and then and then it sort of rolled on to like private sector so people who would build bik Parks so right you know obviously bik Park whales being the main thing that it went into but since then we’ve been out to um Ireland and worked at Glen Cullen okay the Gap it’s called have you ever been there no but I really it’s on my d a lot yes yeah okay so yeah like Greg I’ll ride there D Ronin you know all those guys like will use it now and you’ll see it on their Instagram and it’s quite a you it’s not a big hill but um super fun yeah and the people who run it it’s a it’s a family that own the land and they live on the site and they are like amazing people like amazing hosts as you can imagine like Irish it’s just off the back of Dublin you got a city and you you’re looking down on Dublin beautiful so yeah that’s cool and um I didn’t know you I didn’t know you had something to do with that yeah just help helping them get established really you know so we did the well well all of the trails build yeah get them up run well it looks Banger I’m looking forward to going there I actually spoke to Dan last night about when I was going to head over and stay with him and ride there I gu be riding there yeah nice so what point in your Trail building did did B pot Wales even become like a dream or something you even thought about yeah um Martin and I worked together at Kuman yeah and then we both kind of went our separate ways you know just with our careers if like he went to Canada he started working with Brands and I had set up a trail Building Company but at one point I I knew he was coming back from Canada and I had a project going in Gorton if you know that one yeah so it’s like on the coral Devon border and it was a little down it was one of the first s of downhill uplift projects after Kuman at that time um and I dropped him a line because I wanted to know if he was around just bring some of what he experienced in Canada to the T or just kind of Sanity check some of my ideas so so I think like us working together there we we’d obviously both been having our own separate thoughts without yeah you know knowing this but um yeah I think when we we worked together there it was only for a few days just look at stuff then we went our team went in and built the trail and then I give him a shout it’s like it’s open now come down and do this the opening ride we had a really good day riding and at the end of it it’s like we need to do something like this in South Wales just kind of throwing out there and he’s like yeah we do and and it was enough that it was like okay so it was that and then we just picked it up gon of all places E I think it was just the fact that it was the first time where or for me anyway where I I delivered something that was starting to get closer it was the package wasn’t it but it was still building it and then handing it over to a client yeah yeah whereas there’s always this concept of I want us to operate it and manage it because then you’re like really in control of the quality and you can evolve it yeah yeah yeah does that what does that mean going back making changes is that what you mean as well because I think some of my experiences have been around people who build B tracks like some of them you just deliver this project and then you walk away six months later it’s absolutely ter you hit the nail on head like at 100% yeah that was so it started in 2004 um with on track and then 2009 was when me and Martin sort of said right let’s actually do this well those five years they’ve been great we’ve done loads of projects and worked really hard and I I loved it you know I was super passionate about it and we we were getting some pretty good projects and it’s like we were progressing but I really struggled with that yeah so we would work really hard um do the best job you can with the budget you’ve got and all the constraints hand a project back and then I’ll go and ride it like a year later or like two years later and and and not always but like 90% of time natur like they’re going to get the the degradation of that trail has just kind of taken away some of its yeah you know the excitement the fun from it yeah and the model that was there in the UK at the time cuz these were always pretty much like they were free trails to ride which is fantastic MH but the problem with that is there’s no money then to look after them yeah so it’s like as mountain bikers we were getting this great sort of opportunity to ride all these new trails but they were just on this sliding scale of like you get it when it’s good get it when it’s hot and then it goes there and so yeah I I did I really struggled with that and um I was trying to figure out how we could do things differently cuz the way public contracts work they can’t give you like cuz we asked this obviously like can we have a maintenance contract and we’ll keep that trail really good and we’ll do it for 5 years or 10 years but the way public tenders and money Works they they’re not allowed to do that essentially or they or they won’t have the budget to allow that um so that was a massive part of like again that sort of idea and vision of bik Welles just like having complete control over the product being able to look after it being able to maintain it and knowing that and to be be able to be proud of it from year one to year 20 or year 30 hopefully yeah so and and we completely shared that Vision you Martin had worked in Whistler so you know he’d seen the Whistler model and he worked in the trail crew there for a little bit so yeah we’re just on the same page that that’s the only way you could do it and it felt it’s interesting though so so when you built those Trails you were asking the forestry or the council or whatever like look this is going to be the problem though we’re going to build it it’s going to be sick it’s going to be really fun for a few months and then it’s going to start degrading and there just isn’t is it is it still unfortunately yeah yeah yeah I think things are a little bit better and there’s more awareness so you might find that there’s a a shorter term like maintenance period like usually two years you might get in your contract now which is great and that means then there’s a commitment from the Builder to go back and do periodic repairs um which can look all sorts of things sometimes it’s a bit of a token gesture and sometimes it’s you know the real deal yeah but it’s not long lived thing typically because there isn’t they can’t say that they’ll have that budget in five years time so they won’t commit to it um and there isn’t like a model of getting Revenue you know it’s a shame to think that you have to make it commercial but ultimately if you want a really good product you do yeah I think yeah do you think it’s that or do you think it’s like ownership like if no one owns something no one looks after something it’s like yeah that’s that’s a really fair point I think that is the alternative you know okay brilliant example to pentus right okay yeah so no one pays to ride there but what a great place and those guys they they take ownership of it so you’re right like and and a dig spot Trail spot you know dir jump spot you might have you know people who have ownership of it it’s so hard to create that though isn’t it like how do you do it you can’t create it from you can’t apply it to something that if we came in and built a trail you can’t then say you can’t build aun around it’s really really difficult I think the community have to be 100% invested in creating it I don’t understand how you do it we’ve got the we’ve got the jumps up the road yeah and I always thought if if I was a young person and someone just said to me oh there’s this place up the road and then I went there I’d be like oh my goodness this is mine now I can look after it I can make it good and I’ve I’ve failed every every single direction I’ve tried up there I’ve failed do a dig day doesn’t work people think if they got a dig day they’ve been to the Dig day I’ve got my ticket for the whole year I don’t need to dig anymore if you leave it to them it just falls into disrepair it’s I don’t even know what the answer is to be honest other than making it that’s the dirt jumps is a great example isn’t it really because you’ve got these pockets of scenes that maintain and I guess that’s where some of the negativity used to come from about if you go and ride certain places they’d be like no we don’t works it’s good it in a way works cuz it keeps them good yeah I think the no dig no ride like it can be seen as being a bit salty from the outside but when you actually understand the graft that people put in you know and the hours they commit to it you can totally understand it yeah I think the best examples are of where communities are doing a great job of keeping up mountain bike trails is where they have created them themselves you know they generally like the off piece Trails but there’s there’s brilliant places around the UK that have been built by um Community Riders and and they informally look after them yeah but to try and apply it in that sort of more formal or official space is is really difficult yeah yeah super hard so without owning the bike park that that was that was what you’re were trying to do you were trying to own one of your projects basically yeah for sure yeah for a number of reasons one is like so you can realize a vision you know it’s not finished it’s never finished you keep it evolving you keep progressing um I think running a effectively Trail Building Company is a is a construction company and you never know where your next job is coming so there was an element of that like some security as well yeah um but first and foremost it was like let’s have control of this site and let’s make it the very best it can be how did what were those early conversations like with Martin then how did you come together I don’t think even Martin spoke about this I might be wrong like how did you help put together the plan how did you like show your vision how did you align it all so 2009 like I say when we started on that Journey so we registered the company in 2009 and we opened in 2013 so it gives you an idea it’s actually like a 4E process where we were kind of working towards that and we all had um our own full-time jobs and interests yeah the initial Vision was to build a downhill Center you know that was a very start of it is much more a simplified version of bik part Wales for sure you know not such a big fancy building you basic but with downhill but it’s good that we had those years because I think we could just see how things were changing in mountain biking like the bikes were evolving really quickly traik didn’t fall apart and you could ride aggressively um I just got happened to be doing a couple of um projects where we had to build I’d call them like some more Progressive blue Trails CU all the trail centers up to that point were like Reds and black so is actually one of the first proper blue trails in the forest yeah and then when that opened you saw oh my God how many people rode it all of a it was like ah like light bulb so yeah we kind of started thinking then okay we’ve still got this passion and background of sort of the downhill interest but we need to broaden it out and that’s how it evolved like the vision if you like into um trail bike a trail bike Focus Gravity Park I think that’s kind of how we were first talking about it um and then we just shared out the workload in terms of like putting together the plans and people played to their strengths y I think you spoke Anna spoke that a lot like Anna’s charted accountant and she financials is not that’s not my side of things like I’ve been running a company I I could run a small company and manage finances in that but yeah this was a whole another world and we we had we were trying to get funding from all sorts of um partners and we approached like um uh loaning Bank in Wales I think they’re called um Bank of Wales or Finance Wales sorry so yeah there was some pretty hard um negotiations to do which needed a lot of like specific Financial knowledge so it’s just people using their own strengths like my strength at that time was I the only I was the only person who’d been involved in tenders because that was part and parcel of my right job at that point in time so I’d been doing tenders for like five years up to there so it’s just kind of knowing how to put one together what the client might be looking for having a a professional relationship with Forest commission Wales who are ultimately uh who we were bidding to um so yeah we we just used to meet in evenings like every week after work and then just flesh out who’s going to do what and just kind of chip away at it did you think it was going to happen I was going to ask that we’ve all had these business ideas dude sat down You’ had the meetings I was so invested when came in I was just like I can I can picture myself in the same position like yeah oh that’s a great question and I think I’ve been involved in you know a number of different things over the years but this was a one where because it was it wasn’t individual it was a team it was a collective with a Clear Vision yeah and I think whenever we doubted it and we all had like it was a massive roller coaster don’t you wrong we all had like proper down days and or down weeks or whatever it would be where you’re like this isn’t going to happen we’ve got these barriers ahead of us but like someone else would be in a positive space and be like no we’ll you know so we just helped each other out and I think because of that and because of the amount of time and effort that we’ put into it there was no way it couldn’t happen yeah like it was that’s the only way I can put it happen sick we had to make it happen and but it we were obviously questioning at times whether it would happen on the basis that we were bidding against other people and we didn’t know whether we’d be selected but once we were selected like we won the tender we still had a lot of hurdles to overcome massive ones um but there was never in question at that point it was like we just have to find a way and it was that was the challenge was finding the way this might be a stupid question but I was thinking about it after the episode with those guys like you were biding against other people but how did that happen because you’ve had this idea totally separ yeah there’s this piece of land how did other people get involved with same piece of land yeah yeah it felt really tough on us it felt really harsh on us that that was the situation how did it get to that we were put into but essentially what happened is we we we pitched the concept first first yeah like not long after probably 2009 I think you know not long after we got together we put together a plan and pitched it um and we had like a really good response and buy in but it was then apparent which was only a good thing but it was apparent that there was the potential of a grant which would be public money right um to help support someone to do a commercial bike park okay and it was that element specifically I I understand that meant that it had to be go out to the public right so there is an alignment there of you have having the idea and also the forestry commission who own the land also having a similar idea so unbeknown to us at the time there had been this um feasibility study that had been T taking place within for mountain biking within South Wales which yeah we didn’t know that was happening we’d come with our idea but actually this study had gone around and they’d spoken to all the interested parties um so a number of riders anyone like Dragon down Jason’s running Dragon downhill people who were involved in the sport and the industry and they’d actually come back and said there’s a gap in the market people want more extreme riding than you’re providing like Trail centers have a ceiling people want to ride downhill they want to do uplifts blah blah blah so they’ already been thinking about this and that is what had enabled the potential of this grant right the two timing was timing was pretty good we had to wait but it meant that the two aligned and then that meant that it had to go out and anyone could bid on that sort of concept that we pitched to them I guess it turns into the same as like a roundabout or set of swings as soon as it becomes public it’s like they have to make it fair they have to like get the best price get best where do you see that stuff yeah and there there are sites where you can specifically there was like tenders uh whistle oh uh select contracts I think no in New Zealand the company out there were like interested so like how how would they see that there’s this Hillside in Wales that might be ready for developing yeah I mean I can only assume like because this is how we do it within I used to do it within the UK is you there are certain sites that list all tenders and opportunities which could be everything from like raring a pavement traffic lights to building mountain bike track right so you set up keyword searches on those um notices and I would think a global company like that would just do it and they have it in each country feeding him was there an element of before you went started building the park through when you were planning it were you keeping your cards like close to your chest were you telling people what you wanted to do or oh yeah yeah you about totally it was the most you obviously building trails at the same time so you’re not going to be like oh yeah we’re going to do this thing in Wales it was really difficult right it was really stressful really hard because you didn’t want to yeah exactly you didn’t want you to give someone else your ideas but I’m also like a very open and honest person and like to sort of feel like you’re slightly hiding something I was it It’s just tough but it’s what we had to do because we wanted to win it you know and yeah you could only share so much information yeah it’s gnarly so when you won the tender what was the first day you you already planned the trails but at that point you’d already like roughly marked was it seven yeah so they were like different stages so I to at the tender stage i’ done a trail plan yeah it’s like an initial sort of concept Trail plan and it set out like how many runs we would have but we ended up going way above that okay um then once we awarded it I actually went in and sort of cuz I knew at that point we had a year probably till we were building then spent a load of time on site and really flashed that plan with further detail right okay I don’t if we asked before what the first Trail was yeah we should ask and people should put in the comments and then we’ll reveal it after the [Music] break what is that that my friend is a 25,000 coffee machine wow that you could be in with a chance to win if simply if well I can win all that yeah guess what the ticket price is what to win all all that yeah the coffeee machine coffee machine grinder grinder scal scales jug mug and a year to play coffee yeah year supp of coffee I can’t even see from here but yeah yeah it’s there it’s great it just okay 500 quid a ticket think again guess again higher £590 a ticket okay I’m going to stop you there because you’re going up and we need to go down we need to bring it right down oh in a way up in quality though because we’re offering a ticket in into this prize draw for every TRC pre-ride roast bag the pre-ride roast is back the pre- rod roast is back and it’s for 30 one second to yeah 95 I thought you were going to say 320 no 3295 so the 3295 gets me a kilogram of pre-ride roast coffee that again we’ve gone in and made ourselves almost right absolutely it’s a it’s a mix of Brazil and Peru two favorite places for coffee absolutely you can buy in every different format what beans ground exactly realistically you spend over you 40 quid a month probably on coffee as it is and the rest exactly I spend so much money on c295 is a steal and you get a chance to win this right W you want to know how yeah please how do I do it all you have to do is head to dream coffe competition.com and buy yourself a bag okay so dream coffe competition.com buy a bag of pre-ride RAR it get sh direct to your door yeah and then that is my ticket to win two and a half Grands worth of coffee making aesthetically pleasing Beauty kitchen and it’s and it’s known to make you look more sophisticated if anyone comes in your kitchen game over Dude game over just having this in the room makes me feel sophisticated me too man no more like Reus not like you know plastic mugs none of that stuff nothing head two dream coffee competition.com and buy yourself some pre- rid roast I’m going there now are you actually yeah I’m it’s online line dude you don’t need to leave the room okay I’ll come back nice one thanks dream coffee competition.com thanks dream coffe competition.com do you think we mentioned the website [Laughter] enough we’re on we’re back so what was it the first Trail at bik part Wales I’m pretty sure it six apart no because there wasn’t one this is the thing were we had a whole load of people working at the same time on different Trails so we didn’t like build one trail from top to bottom got yeah trick answer so yeah yeah you’re right so but but there was previously dragon races going through on that’s right which one you trying to pick the trail yeah I can’t remember I know which one cuz I’ve got punk I’ve gone all the way there got puncture and then didn’t so it’s uh Enter the Dragon Enter the Dragon that’s think to and then the bottom B is deep navigation oh is it and Port B is actually the middle so like there’s three sections that make it up um and we’ve obviously messed around with it but we kind of kept that rough footprint of it there you go I was I was actually thinking what would be the first would be you go through the tunnel and you’re at that little meeting point that people stop at and there’s like the Rocky one yes that’s what I remember as being that’s the old rock garden from the dragon track yeah yeah yeah there you go was there more more people building then you said that you built at the same time yes you had more people to start with yeah so we didn’t have a trail crew then yeah yeah so they were contractors or exactly yeah so we we had a yeah contract team um bikers or non- bikers mix because again the industry wasn’t as developed as it is now so that there wasn’t like a pool of biker Builders you could pull in right um so we had a good mix we had like quite a few really good trail Builders and skilled and Riders and then we had a few people who never rode a bike in their life but they could do other things like that help us get that project along simple things like building the underpass you didn’t need to you know the tunnel under the road you didn’t need to be a biker and and putting in like our access tracks and okay yeah there was it was the biggest team I’ve had working on a site one time I think there was like at one point there’s like 14 Trail Builders all and a whole lot of plant and kit going at the same time so yeah it was pretty hectic we had seven months to build the whole the whole of the trail network from you know day one to open in and like context for that we we put in I think we opened with 26 Trails now obviously some of them are like sections so it’s not like 26 top to bottom runs but it’s it’s still a lot of trails yeah um and a normal project we’ve been working on up until then would be maybe four or five months and you’d build like two tracks now they’re bigger tracks but much easier you know yeah cross country rather than like full of features and burms so it was a new level of intensity I think yeah and at that point you were building something that was like obviously it’s your product so did you want it to be what what were your primary concerns was it that it was all weather or was it that it was going to last or was it that it was super fun what was it you were like aiming for the most trying to get the blend yeah I mean the thing that kept me awake at night all the time was that it wasn’t going to hold up and last right so the ground was is is a real Mi mix match on that Hill some sites you go to and the geology is all the same so you know like if you dig here or you dig there it’s the same and you learn the properties of it and and you’re good yeah whereas it’s very different in um GE in bike part Welles so trying to understand like whether some of these soils we’re getting to were going to just turn into swamps you know we didn’t really know like experience can tell you so much but normally you need a bit of time to get your head around it whereas we didn’t have that we had to just open and be hit the ground running um so we definitely like surfaced some things which I’d have preferred not to but that was just to make sure it would hold up yeah um yeah so there’s a balance of like trying to get the right style of Trail and the right for want of a better word product that people are going to love and people are going to enjoy riding versus something that’s going to hold up and not find that it’s a house of cards and after two months it’s all collapsed in on you I have no idea out of people listening to this how many people will have built a trail I have no idea how much you think about it when you leave a comment if you’ve built a trail but I I go to a bike park and I do think about it doesn’t it’s not lost on me that every inch of the trail that you go along has been kind of put there or managed or like made yeah um do you think it do you think that’s something that’s been lost or do you think that’s unimportant nowadays I I think when people go they you know not a lot of people aren’t going to be thinking about that like you you guys had your experience with the team didn’t you and it’s sort of I guess it’s it gives you that window in into it it gives you that insight into like how much is involved in putting a track on the ground and and keeping it there but it’s not it’s not important for our customers to know all of that I mean it’s great and it probably they get would have an appreciation of like what’s involved if they knew it what about for like mountain biking in general obviously like on a personal level you don’t want anyone to have to like wheel bear dirt around to in order to enjoy biking but Okay the reason I’m asking is I personally think it’s got lost a little bit I feel like it helps me knowing it stops me from insiding some of your turns it like maybe I don’t know it just I I look around and I feel like it has changed over the years and like I think it’s a good thing to pile up a landing yeah CU realize how long it takes and it takes so long like it like from a kid I’ve been piling up Landings and I understand why someone’s mean to me if I chain ring one you know what I mean they’re no longer mean they’re just they piled up the landing yeah I guess that’s the thing like like with the trail Center Vibe sometimes that people are just like oh I’ve paid idea so I’m just going to almost do whatever I want but you’ve kind of got to limit that haven’t you yeah I guess the trails have got to be like adapted so that that’s not happening does that make sense yeah yeah I I I totally agree I think you get that like a sense of appreciation when you’ve done it don’t you you appreciate what’s which is great fun good feeling wherever you ride whether it’s yeah bike park or sort of like local Trails or you definitely dirt jumps you know to the graph that people put in and it’s always a small group of people you know I think yeah it is inspirational to see what some people do in the spare time I feel like the um the experience we had should be something that you open up to like us you know they could come for the day yeah it’s like a day’s Trail building gives you a free day on the hill one day or something like that they’ve got to have a night out with the trail crew I don’t know about that cuz you guys didn’t we didn’t do a night out with the boy it’s a good team yeah no doubt so when you were starting to build all of the trails early days did you then were you also doing the other stuff as well you know there’s so much more going on outside of planning buildings Services that’s going in all that yeah yeah um yes but we did delegate out um so we could focus in on like core responsibilities so thankfully once the build started you know prior to the build we were all kind of involved in everything to some extent um but when we actually broke ground and started building like Anna and Liz looked after the um Visitor Center itself and sort of trying to manage a contractor there yeah um Martin was leading slightly more on the the legal side and our lease negotiation um you know as well as having oversight the buildings and I would focus more on everything outside of the buildings so uplift Road getting that built um obviously the trail Network The Underpass the tunnel so yeah we did blinker a little bit through that period and then we got to operational phase when we opened our doors were you there on that first day yeah yeah yeah 1500 people something yeah it’s something we’ll um yeah we’ll never forget definitely because it was such a long buildup um and I think they touched it before but yeah we were there like midnight the night before and it’s pitch black and it’s just a very surreal feeling there’s no one else there just us cuz all the contracts have gone home and then we’re like it’s happening you know tomorrow is the day yeah and we hit our date and you know that was a milestone in itself cuz we set a Target date and we advertised it and there’s always a risk we wouldn’t get there like seven months prior as well uh no I think we decided we gave ourselves a little bit of Wiggle but we still committed like three or four months out so it could all could all have gone um yeah hit the date and then morning came around and yeah it was just that feeling of being completely overwhelmed by what was happening but also a sense of excitement that it people are into it you know like it’s not just a pipe dream it’s like people want this and by by the number of people came through the door and also just like chatting to people and seeing the buzz that was there it was a real Buzz yeah so that that was pretty exciting day sick so day one what were people excited about in terms of Trail building because you’ve talked about flat turns and like adding BMS it seems obvious now but like it wasn’t necessarily obvious all those years ago but what about at the start of bipot Wales which Trails were super exciting to people was there any surprises there in what the general population liked yeah I think people were enjoying the fact that you had a diverse collection of trails together right like I that’s what I was picking up is like the buzz that they could go and ride something like pretty gnarly like nothing super gnarly but like Steep and Tech and then just have the most cruy fun you know massive train with riders on a blue um and and probably the blues are the things that stood out cuz like that style of fast flowy blue was was new you know I think that is really the place that sort of put put that style on the map um in the UK anyway so yeah I think people were loving that cuz everyone could ride them like they were accessible so like anyone who went there could have a go but you you’d have you have people sending it down there you know whether you’re a racer a hooker whatever it was accessible to everyone I found it I’ve just got back from cenia have you been to um Mount Pica or petson petson no I hav I I followed your trip though yeah okay that flow Trail really blew my mind cuz obviously you see Blues being popular but this blue this blue this Trail it’s 20 minutes probably long flow Trail it’s big mountain but you have everyone you have a guy on a a fat bike and you have a a kid on a on a like a 16inch wheel bike and then you have us going as quick as you can it it blows my mind that that that’s like possible and that is a blue MH Trail it’s like a true blue Trail it’s not uh it’s not difficult but it’s super fun like that wouldn’t have happened without no know rollers yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I think that’s that whole development of flow Trails isn’t it you know that’s that’s come about you know it’s been in the last 10 years really those going out across Europe well on the world yeah but they’re yeah they’re super fun you you don’t want to just ride that yeah but with everything else they’re great yeah totally I met Diddy Schneider the other day okay yeah he’s quite a he’s quite a flow Trail forefather isn’t he yeah that’s definitely yeah done a lot of good work I think so with that with the flow trails and with the progression from Flat turns burms flow Trails whatever where do you see see it going next in terms of like mountain bike trail design I feel like bikes have kind of leveled off a bit mhm where would you say is the area you’d like to explore the most in trail building yeah I think there’s a couple of things I think there’s still just like the little Avenues and niches that sit you know you like for us certainly at bipart Wales we’re looking at filling those gaps in progression so you can literally just smoothly step your way up you haven’t got to go from mediumsized jumps to really big gumps you know you just give people that ladder um so I think that’s something we will focus on but in terms of stuff that’ be different like I’m quite excited about doing a proper ebike Loop nice there you go right yeah not going to ask you about that so what defines a proper ebike Loop I’m intrigued for me is there one currently Wales no anywhere in the UK that we could say is an bite loop I Know Dan at Derby has one that people are riding but I don’t think it’s yet in a place where um I was gonna say it’s obviously yeah yeah I know a lot of people who wrote it and everyone says it’s real good but yeah it’s it’s hard you know yeah but that’s cool you know there’s going to be a core of people who want to ride that um so but yeah I don’t think there is one yet that’s open um people are just either doing you know their off piece riding with bikes or they’re probably buzzing around Trail centers and bike parks yeah but yeah I got a kind of vision to do at the bike park which unfortunately probably won’t be for you know a few years out but it’ll be steep techy climbs you know just like a challenge on the way up so you’re fully engaged you’re not just like chilling up and then proper Downs like steep tacky downs and up and down so it’ll be a loop like a cross country circuit but with five or six climbs in descents on it that’s cool that’s exactly what I thought you were going to say and what I would say is a eite loop as well and probably the future like you just said like this that’s what it is surely right like people are going to be riding ebikes more it looks like in the future whether it’s an SL or a full fat yeah oh without you got accommodate for it yeah and it opens up terrain that we can’t use no yeah so we’ve we our current plan to build a lot more trails in the park they’re still focused in the same Zone that we’ve got so we kind of increased the number of trails there um and yeah really excited about that it’s it’s going to be brilliant um but the ebikes allow us to go places we can’t currently with the uplift yeah um and unlock little bits of terrain so i’ I’ve Road and explored all like the back side of the Hill which won’t work off an uplift uh and there some really good like features like old quaries and yeah just different terrain to play with does it get harder there obviously because you’re going to want people there as a client customer paying the insurance all that sort of stuff if you’ve got a bigger Loop it adds more complications to who’s paid and who’s not and who’s covered and who’s not it adds definitely adds complications for us um a lot of them are just in management of the land right so we increase the spread of our staff and the area that they’ve responsible for yeah so the moment you can draw a ring around it and you basically double that okay which the big one is obviously first aid response and medical care which is something we put a lot of like pride and effort into as you guys out yeah but um that could be challenging you know if we’ve got to respond to someone who’s completely the other side of the Hill um it’s already you know a little bit of a challenge so so stuff we got to work through um but the concepts there yeah yeah yeah interesting yeah the future of bike parks being ebikes I bet you never saw that coming I think it’s an important part like people will always want uplift you know and and when ebikes became started getting popular like I was an early adopter like I had a Tracker a sponsor so I had a bike through track really early on when they weren’t like great at that time but straight away I was like well these are got something tough it yeah and I didn’t think I was going to like them you know if I’m honest I was like I was I wanted to not like them and then I was like and now they they’ve got so good they’re you know I think they’re brilliant um but yeah we started seeing lots and lots more ebites coming in our head we’re like okay what does that mean for an uplifted bike park but now it’s been there long enough that we kind of get it and if you live a couple of hours away from bike park Wales or Devy or or black mountains you any of those uplifted places revs and your local riding suits having an ebike like most people are changing to an ebike you know a lot of people are so that’s their solo bike so when they come to a bike park it’s still like their day out at a bike park and they’re on the uplift so you see them a lot at any of the parks now we’re seeing U which is quite interesting cuz it took a while to get your head around it cuz you’re like what these guys are putting ebike on the uplift they being lazy but it’s not it’s just like that’s your your bike one bike so you use it according to where you are yeah I mean you’ve already got the climb as well haven’t you like yes there is an option yeah for anyone it’s much cheaper isn’t it it’s uh yeah yeah I think what we what I think we’ve learned or what we see is if people live within an hour of the bike park so it’s kind of local then they’re much more likely to just ride the ebike yeah you know they might do the occasional uplift um whereas as soon as you flip it the other way and you’re it’s a bit of a trip to go to bike park I’ve P loads of times at your bike par yeah yeah I think it was just through not being able to get on the uplift okay and just turning up and then just yeah yeah just pedling up it’s a good day out for pedling you know but I think you know uplift is it’s the thing that most people want and most people come for yeah yeah yeah I mean you can get actually get way more laps in than you think it it does make you think doesn’t it with ebikes because on a normal bike I think I got seven laps in one day it’s by no means the record but it was like a big day I’m sure people done way more but that was like quite a big day and quite quite a good uh down on the tools kind of thing and then on a on the uplift you sort of get 10 or 12 don’t you or yeah like a a really good day on the uplift would be 13 I think 10’s solid like most people would makes you think on an ebike I might have to come and do a YouTube video that sounds like a YouTube title I just as I was about to say it yeah how many laps can I do a b yeah cuz I guess you’re battery limited as well aren’t you like take two yeah yeah ebikes at bike parks yeah interesting it’s happening yeah so how much work do you you outside of B pot whales now are you solely just B pot Wales with the uh I’m more or less solely B pot whales these days yeah so um it was around Co I kind of had a reflection on trying to do two things was really tough you know um so on track the trail Bing company I’ve been working with James and Rob for a long long time now they’re sort of like my two core staff who’ve been on the journey with me and um I just kind of recognized that I was probably holding them back okay you know you do two things badly rather than one thing well yeah so yeah I had the conversation with them last thing I wanted to do is kind of lose all the uh the good work that we put in over the years and just and these were fulltime staff sorry yeah yeah why the company so so they now own the company okay yeah and I I’m involved but you know much more on the background yeah they give me a shout if they want any help any sort of sign boarding and if there’s a particular project um I might get involved in like a specific project but dayto day it it runs itself and yeah like I say James and Rob do you know Rob brewell I don’t know whether you would have met him yeah he used to race he used to race for dirt magazine back in the day yeah but yeah so he’s he’s one of the owners cool rad so you built it up to a point and then you can almost just sort of take a bit of a step back and then yeah yeah because they they’ve developed so much time um yeah and as I say I just kind of recognized that trying to be fully involved in bot whales and the trail willing company going forward was was not the best result for anyone yeah and yeah I’m not getting any younger I want to spend my free time riding my bike not sat at a laptop fair you know it was often six seven days a week when it’s busy so yeah nice so you’ve got the dream bike park you also have the dream yard your yard I’ve never been I want to so bad I’ve heard so many stories yeah you’re very welcome it’d be great to have you how did that happen uh how did it happen it I guess it was always like for a lot of us it’s a bit of a pipe dream isn’t it to have a few jumps in the garden or a pump track so I’ve always thought that I just wanted somewh where I could build a few dirt jumps and know they’re not going to get knocked down yeah and then me and my fiance then my my wife now we were sort of we were looking to move and we’ve been house hunting if you like but just keeping a North eye no desperate like need to move we’re just keeping an eye out going and visiting places doing driveby blah blah blah and then yeah this place came up um and it was a year before we started building bike park Wales so perfect timing not really like it was absolute nightmare but yeah so I we went and viewed it I walked through the door and by this point we’d viewed a load of different houses and um I kind of had a feeling for like what Liz did and didn’t like and kind of opened the door I was like oh this isn’t going to happen he’s like it just needed way too much work and we said with bik part whales around the corner we didn’t want to take a project on but I said oh could I have a look at the land and the um the owner was there and he said oh yeah I walk you around and like walk through this field and SE these woods and like all of a sudden I’m like going like so yeah came back down didn’t say anything cuz you’re in front of the owners it’s always a bit awkward we jumped in the van drove out and I was like what do you think and I was just waiting for Liz to go oh no I don’t like that and she goes oh I love it and I was like what so yeah I just totally wasn’t exped so we went anyway long St short went back to the second Vie in we were both getting our heads around the house side of it then and took it on as a project so yeah that was another thing whilst we were building bike part wheel we’re trying to renovate this house but with a long-term aim of obviously putting some tracks there so it took took a while it’s like we’ve been there for 12 years now and put first tracks in the year after so it’s like been 11 years of like building and tweaking and you got some massive jumps in your garden haven’t you you really yeah there’s a couple of big ons yeah actually like this yesterday was the first time I hit a few of the bigger jumps since I’d like remodeled them and stuff so yeah it’s nice it’s like anything you know like you got to tick it off you know so like they’re all ticked off now and yeah have some sessions in the summer so yeah definitely you should come up and ride that feels like a busman’s holiday though you’re like building Trails all day going home build some more trails in the garden yeah I guess it is but yeah I I love it yeah and and when we moved there it it was slightly different then so I ran back on track or on track as it is now from that um address right so we had a like a lock up for the diggers and an office that the staff worked from so the trail it became like well you could come and visit this is what we could do like an so we actually like the J the job in Ireland well we had two jobs from Ireland but the Glen Cullen the guys came over and they they had to walk around and yeah so it kind of just shows it’s a really small piece of Woodland and land but I think we’ve been really creative with it and we’ve got a lot in there so yeah I be really I’d be stoked to show you it like I think um most people come in and they’re like ah cuz it’s yeah it’s just like over the years we’ve been able to really get the best out of that space yeah that’s cool bro so you can look out the window and see big jumps is it literally like see if yeah yeah yeah we got like a little lawn and then it rolls it’s like a little Valley yeah so it’s like a big step down into a step up out this Valley so yeah you can see that out the window that is it yeah that’s cool man the showroom in the G but there’s a lot of work that’s the thing you don’t appre I didn’t appreciate you know I was just like oh that would be amazing but actually it’s a big old job like keeping on top of it when it’s not being ridden all the time to get people to come and ride it isn’t it because you obviously you don’t want people just hanging out in your G but like then also you don’t want to be like super formal with like inviting people over to ride your massive jumps Sam always talks to me about it Sam ver going get used like for a while wow that is quite some incredible oh yeah doesn’t look like it’s in the UK you know it it looks like something you expect to see somewhere else for some reason but yeah looks incredible everyday session in the garden pretty cool it’s Andre’s got quite a wild setup as well hasn’t he I’m trying to think of all of the backyard setups because yours is one that comes to mind because you’ve had it for a while as well and because of the TTR track the M some of the Moto stuff is like really cool in the states right yeah yeah yeah twitch and madow places places like that dream really dream it is isn’t it it is so this is quite a vague question but what’s the current state of like Trail building in the UK I think a massive topic is always like advocacy building legal spots like I’d love to know from a professional what are your views on it and what should people be doing to try and rally to get legal Trails Etc yeah I just love any of your thoughts on that I think you’re right person speak about it it’s like a really interesting time at the moment for for all of that space yeah there’s been a lot of talk in that Sphere for for years and years but but just now there’s like a sort of well of momentum and a few um different people and bodies kind of involved in I guess trying to help uh facilitate like Community groups and and local Rider groups yeah break down some of the barriers with land owners and move from very informal spaces to like semiformal or slightly more formal spaces so yeah my kind of take is I think it’s it’s got to be a healthy thing um because if you look at places around the world where it’s been done well it works um Squamish pton I always there places I’ve been to and sort of could say that it feels like they do do it really well so they’re like they have um community groups which have official um contracts and links to the land owners yeah yeah so sort of like it’s it’s formally managed but in a community-led way it’s kind of like what I see where I live like Sheffield we got ride Sheffield and uh and there’s another one as well can’t remember the name of but again they’re in touch with land owners the sort of like maintaining Trails as well which is really cool yeah so even if it’s one that’s like a public one that’s been sort of put there I’m thinking of there’s one called lady cannings which is quite quite of famous where I am but again that’s maintained by volunteers and every month or two they go up there patch things up but I was just curious like yeah what was going on with the state of it and yeah so like I said there’s these two groups who are who were now trying to coordinate so so rather than every group whether it’s in Sheffield in South Wales or in like the Tweed Valley all having to have their own conversations and kind of unpick all these barriers which can be really difficult cuz you dealing with especially if you’re dealing with public bodies so like Forest commission for example or nrw there’s a lot of red tape and sometimes they ask for things which I think are probably a bit unreasonable of a of a volunteer group um so I think we’re at the start of that Journey but um these projects so samam are sponsoring one so they’ve employed an officer to help um kind of coordinate in the UK yeah right yeah um and then there’s uh another chat Robin who kind of um set up off his own back uh um a forum for all of these Rider groups that he’s he’s contacted from around the UK so whether that be like to pentus risk Riders um I’m sure some of the chef groups yeah um Ian he’s got he’s telling me over 100 different groups that’s cool overp which is amazing in the UK right um so I think yeah like I say we’re at the start of that Journey but I think if they can make that Headway and break down some of the barriers with land owners then it’s got to be good for everyone cuz a landowner can be that their their concern is liability yeah so as a land owner you can’t um negate that land owner’s liability so someone goes down a trail your worst casear they break their neck or something severe or they or they have fatality there’s always the potential of a comeback on that land owner it’s not as simple as to say it’s mountain bike and you do it as your own risk yeah and it’s tough you know and that we we start within a bike park and it’s it’s hard for those land owners to have a very less a fair attitude CU that’s yeah if it was your land RIS EXA are with yeah so I think if we can put them in a place where they’re more assured because there’s processes in place like the design is checked off they’re inspected they’re maintained you know like basic steps then that will help and not barriers and then I think for the community groups it’s just like some simple rules of operation and and Rules of Engagement with those land owners so and the public as well I think a lot as a mountain biker and someone who goes out and uses these places it’s like it’s just important to just be a decent person and not take the piss I think like the the knock on effect especially with the exactly I was going to say like your hat says don’t be a dick I mean it’s like you know a lot of what we’ve seen with the growth of biking especially like postco it’s like it’s just got a bit out of control and even from someone who goes out and rides a lot there’s certain areas and you’re just like come on just don’t be a dick like you don’t have to ride that spot there that’s like in you know an iconic bit of scenery for example it doesn’t need a trail down it like yeah and it’s it’s raising awareness because I think there’s there’s two sides there’s people who are being dicks and you know they’re knowingly doing it and then there’s maybe some younger Riders who just you know they’re not aware of to it searching for Lo they’re being dicks too yeah so I think it can help like Bridge all those gaps yeah um so I think I think we’re in a good space in that change feels like it’s coming and for the positive but I also understand completely understand like certain groups who want to stay under the radar and do their own thing because it’s as it is now it’s very difficult to like make that contact with the forest commission you know they’re the biggest landowners that’s probably the best example and say we’ve we want to build these Trails or we’ve got these Trails how can we manage it it’s it’s it’s tough you know so I think it’s all about making that process easier so that it works for everyone yeah yeah and it’ll come um I thought that gorish as well I thought and I I even spoke to someone about the clubs and the groups and how it works and it doesn’t seem to be limited does it no not at all not when you ride their Trail Network it’s Mega what I wonder is whether it’s because of quite literally just maybe there’s a lot more pressure on land here obviously yeah we’ve got you know a lot of users in more confined spaces for sure but um that’s about having those conversations and agreeing where is appropriate to like have those Trails yeah totally you can’t have them everywhere no it’s yeah when when you go somewhere with more space I was in Slovenia again the other day and talking about it and it was like all of these problems weren’t sorted out with contracts they sorted out with like salami and wine yeah you know what I mean but as soon as there get so many people you sort of actually just have to it’s no like yeah I remember being younger and being so annoyed you knock down my jumps once you get it you’re like yeah I haven’t moved closer to understanding what the solution is but you understand I do get it yeah yeah yeah totally interesting it’s an interesting hobby for that isn’t it yeah CU you’re sort of in search of the untouched stuff and the fun stuff that’s not yeah it’s kind of what it is a lot of it yeah so so much of it yeah that’s the goals we’re all looking for yeah yeah but it yeah it there is a limit isn’t there yeah and as the sport gets bigger there’s more and more people doing it there has to be like a bit of an element of control yeah for sure um we touched on the stripes yeah so how difficult is it just just just mentioning that you’ve got rainbow and then just sort of leaving it with you like feelsit talk about that then so your world [Music] champion yeah it’s been um what actually okay let’s unpick it so what’s been your riding Journey throughout all of this stuff with B poot Wales have you always continued to yeah ride a lot or has there ever been a point down in jro what we yeah there there was times where I couldn’t yeah and and that was either because we were just under the C you know head down us up working so kind of riding had to go on the back burner for a while um but I always consider myself like I’m a rider first and like business second but I just had to flip it for those years of my life knowing that you know this is what we wanted to achieve so I couldn’t wait to get back to like spending time on the bike so as soon as I could I was back to riding I’ve always done like downhill is what I grew up doing but as soon as trail bikes became a thing and yeah I love Trail biking it’s like in duro’s class because you’re getting a lot of the the funer downhill and you’re out riding with your mates for longer it’s class but um the Journey’s been rough I’ve got to be honest like the injury I’ve had a lot of injuries have you really inj I feel like famously you’ve had a lot of yeah again it’s sort of like embarrassing no you’re real dealan I think it’s not something to be embarrassed of but I you know I am kind of I’m proud of like coming back from them CU there’s been a few where it’s been like you know another one or like really what you talking what’s biggest injury on the uh well I’ve broken my legs five times um yeah I’ve had like 20 20 fractures and few ligaments and Tor my spleen and yes it’s been from 15 to now yeah like big gaps but since B whales it’s been like a run like literally like we when we were building bike park is one the big injury obviously kept me off bike for a bit I uh was testing one of the jumps on zor and jumped into a bomb hole and it’s all still fresh so we hadn’t like compacted it all out and a loose like loaded up in the bottom and a a plate of rock flicked up off my pedal and I just put my big toe like square into it and it just blew my toe up properly blew it up um so that’s where it started yeah and then um yeah I did my T at the bike park yeah had to have uh uh have you seen like the cages yeah so I lived with one of those for five months did you yeah yeah and uh my wedding date basically it was looking like my wedding date was going to be I was going to have to go down the aisle with this K plunk on my leg as I call it but yeah I literally had it off like 3 days before the the wedding so that was a big relief um walking was weird down the aisle not feel big careful yeah yeah cuz I just be you sort of bang that into door frames and stuff because yeah it gets a bit clumsy um but not long after that came off Co it was probably like 3 months later so we got married got that thankfully that happened but when they put that thing on your leg so it’s it’s got like wires going through it which actually hold all the brakes in place cuz I shattered my lower leg so it’s was in like five or six pieces but they fix it into your shim into your tibia yeah so it’s like really barbaric and crude they just get like an M6 go and like that bolts it in to your leg and I’ve been after I’ve been riding i’ had this like one point where I was like I was a little bit pain sore at that point but just figured that’s just because yeah it’s going to be carried on riding car on riding then just had like a a little stamp one day I wouldn’t call it at all a big stamp just like that um where the bolt had been it just snapped in half it hadn’t filled it yeah yeah so so I then went back into a cage for another five months 10 months in the cage in so what was I telling you that yeah so injuries the stripes came about that’s why we were talking about it so earn your stripes no I now you can like you don’t have to feel guilty about telling us how you’re a world champion no it’s not that it was like deserved them I just deserved them I I I I did my ACL I did my ACL and I just before it I just got a new I changed downhill bikes I just started running a bit of downhill and then you know when you have like a more significant injury you’re kind of thinking about what you know you just want to get back on the bike but you Al I I need like something to aim for whatever it is whether it’s a trip or something like that yeah yeah so I done my ACL and then i’ read that the MS World Champs was in Patagonia yeah that Following Season somewhere you want to go yeah I’ve always wanted to go patagon I was like [ __ ] that’d be amazing so that that’s how it came about like that became the focus I did loads of rehab like yeah work really hard went out did that V just happened to be probably the sickest Dino track I’ve ever ridden in my life is it really unreal and you know like how um the World Cup in Poland everyone was complain not complaining like yeah they were [ __ ] it basically that we look [ __ ] by we watched the headcam it was a little bit like that like I watched the headcam I was like it didn’t look [ __ ] but I watched headcam I was like it’s Paragon I’m still going to go but the track doesn’t look the best and you get there and you’re like how are those two things even the same it was like so Steep and yeah it’s just basically a sick track but it didn’t look good on the head Cam and I guess that’s a bit like the Poland thing Instagram vers reality but opposites so so I went out did that did that race and yeah I mean luck luck won it it was it was awesome yeah it was it was a good come back and then and then I broke my leg the next year and I just ended up on this cycle for three years now where I’ve had an injury and I was like well I might as well set the same targ Champion yeah but it’s been cool like and also when I if I travel or do any like a race like that now I love traveling you know so I’ll just be like well I’m going to go on holiday and I’m going to go explore that area and just make the most of going somewhere anyway the riding whatever happens happens yeah wow so how many times have you won it three on the bouns three on the bounds yeah three time world champion are you beat are you beating out people you used to look up to as well like is that yeah yeah a couple yeah it’s it’s call them out uh so Pascal Canal’s like I’ve been ra I’ve raced him at the last I’ve raced him all three and he was someone I used to race against in World Cups and he would always pretty much always smoke me um you know that’s the thing it’s it’s put in perspective you know racing Masters is nothing like doing uh you know a world Champs bit like or R in a World Cup Elite but it’s still a good crap and and you got boys who used to do the World Cups like Tommy misser was at this one he’s like an old school World Copper from like the vodio hero and stuff um yeah and I went to the one in there was one at vald desol like a few years back went to that and and the guy I’m trying to remember Jonesy did it did it m and the guy who won his category was uh an overall World Cup winner oh wow card herin that’s his name yeah I remember him I remember a sticker of him yeah on uh cessi like this is proper all old downhill trivia now yeah so yeah he actually lives near he designed Val desol the original track W there you go yeah that’s like his local area so we’re going to have um probably a lot of people listening to this who are going to be of similar age yeah yeah so what are the secrets to being Mass’s will champ what’s training look like other than the injuries yeah they’re not you don’t need them you don’t you don’t want to have to have an injury to give you that motivation do you have to have a world class um bike park and jumps in your garden or would you say it’s not a necessity definitely not a necessity a bike shop um you’ll hear this a lot but a lot of the people who work at the like going to be the same like me and him actually we don’t ride the park that much you know considering how much we’re there yeah yeah yeah whenever I do I I have I love it you know I have a great time but yeah it’s not like we’re on it all the time um but no yeah there definitely some training yeah tried to keep myself in decent shape I think that’s just good as you get older anyway MH yeah um so yeah it’s normally being like strength and conditioning stuff because of an injury and then that just feeds into um yeah being in good shape then for for a downhill run yeah I mean that’s why I like downhill it’s not in Euro I’m not fit like in that way I can’t like Sprint you know distance and yeah I love like trail riding but yeah at the sharp end I’m not fit enough for that fair I don’t know I’m sure you probably are sure you playing it down a little bit I don’t know yeah I I enjoy it no no it’s there’s levels in there yeah totally yeah there’s the ceiling is high in that game yeah yeah it’s true could be the first World Champ on the podcast though oh my goodness could be I’m sure you’ll better it trying to think now it’s like yeah maybe could be I’ll take that though yeah I would you can sign The Bard board will champ yeah got to sign it champ that be good so what’s next for B part whales I feel like it’s a nice question to end on what’s next for you with B pop Wales where do you see it going it’s really exciting that we’ve just today actually we’ve now got that new lease is has kicked in no way yeah yeah on the way down got the message you literally found out today so that yeah this morning so it’s been like six years of work for me and well and all of us really to to get that over the line um but what that means is a lot of the stuff that Anna and Martin spoke about can now kick in um yeah and for me personally it’s lead in on that trail development so oh wow it’s exciting because I do have to deal with a lot of paperwork and red tape to get there yeah but like starting Wednesday hopefully this week so in a couple of days time we’ll break ground and we’ll start building our first track so this is like the day the podcast comes out which will be this Wednesday you make yeah hopefully we will be dig a bucket in the ground wow yeah couple things super exciting for you really exciting yeah like genuinely really ex you to talk about what people can expect from these new trails yeah of course yeah yeah yeah so we like the big plan we’ve got like we’re ticking all the boxes hopefully you know we’ve got another green trail within the longterm plan right through to you know the black downhills and and jump lines but what we’re going to go out and do first the very first thing we’re doing is like a a cool blue flow Trail which will link up the middle of the park into the tunnel so it’s just kind of like a Missing Link at the moment okay but it’s it’s going to be like a a six action as well so that’s the first thing we’re doing then we’re going to have you R boom slang did you ride that one yeah so at the minute fun trail but it just like stops and then you’re on the Fire Road and then you’ve got to either go up or down so it always a plan to have bottom section to that you’re going to put that one in next so you can do top to bottom runs on Boom slang uh and then we’re going to go red like a big top to bottom red tack Trail okay um which will go from the south start area down to the uplift uh and then we’re into jumps then we’ve uh we’re going to fill out like I said ear filling out some of the gaps in progression so we got popped to Ping which is our easier jump line then you go up to sort of a470 it’s quite a jump especially because a470 is really Progressive starts easy but gets hard so we’re going to like soften that progression um same at the top end we’ll have some bigger jumps you going from red to Black um and a little skills area that’s something that’s coming soon so we’ll be working on that in the next couple and what does the skills area involve so we can’t do um we can’t have a big massive like some places have really good skills areas I’d say where they’ got a really big site and it’s almost like a a little mini bike park in itself yeah yeah yeah but but we’ve packed the area with so many trails we we don’t have that space around the building but what we have got is this um disused Quarry up at the top which is near where popty ping starts uh blue jump line and it’s really cool and that it’s got a lot of like quite natural sort of rock rolls changes in elevation drops um and it’s quite confined so we’re just going to expand that out it’s going to be some sort of beginner rollers beginner jumps um drop offs techy climbs and some really good like Drop In To Rock rolls so you and they’ll be graded out so you you start with like a red one go up to Black and then there’ll be a pro line where you got a couple of bigger drops so yeah I think it’d be good you know something our coaches can use and just something people can go in and have a mess around in and and chip away that progression you know if they’re kind of like at Blue level now they can play around and get up to Red so you got your work cut out that list of things you just told us you a lot to do but we’ve got like I got to say like our team is amazing you know and these things take time and we’ve we started with two people in the trail team and like 17 people in the whole company yeah and now we’re up to like it’s probably around mid 80s in the whole company and and 11 or 12 it’ll be 12 when we start in the trail team and that and they’re they’re solid you know the the guys like my role is just uh convey the idea like do all the planning yeah I’ve planned out how all the routes sit on the trail what we’re going to do in what order and then it’s over to them to bring their like creativity into it and they’ve all developed like over the years so we’ve got a team of really really good trail Builders yeah yeah yeah so that’s what I’m excited about is like I’ll get enjoyment from it because that’s the bit I’m really passionate about and love but I like that’s a bit obviously everyone wants to build a new trailer so it’s really cool to see the guys getting that like payback yeah that’s cool man so Bring it on Bring It On great way to wrap up uh all good cool mate great guest fantastic conversation thank you for coming over I really appreciate real deal it’s been great having you on no I really enjoyed it cheers guys one right it’s a WAP um go on peace and love like And subscribe make one an episode brilliant I thought you were really great Davey mate and I thought you were even better thanks dude better than normal oh cheers hey how about we tell our lovely podcast Community to hit subscribe here yeah click on the video on ol’s face that’s right click on the video on my face yeah and follow us at the r comp on Instagram they can like and comment as well I’m going to try and get this energy and I’m going to bring it into next week let’s fast forward to next week’s episode Done [Music]
9 Comments
another top guest boys, as a 20 year trailbuilder on forestry land (put my first berms in by hand in 1999 and progressed to machine built sections and beyond) its good to hear our sport from a trail builders perscpective, great episode
S4P…. not really owned so… great interview boyos
Awesome interview guys – a real journey through UK mountain bike trail history, all the way from Dafydd Davis to the UK MTB Trail Alliance!
Built many a trail all over the world BECAUSE
No dig no ride!!
Another awsone interview, great to see someone have a vision and see it come to fruition, BPW has been massive for the area and UK bike parks in general. On a separate note, when olly and davy agree and find something amusing, they remind me of beavis and butthead. Hu hu hu hu. .👍👏👏👏🍻🍻🏴 apologies if youve heard that a millions times before .
After running a Forestry Commission backed bike park for 10 years, last year they changed all the rules and said we had to now lease the land from them and fully insure it ourselves. After spending some time and money investigating how feasible it was, we had to accept that the place would never be the same again. We didn't mind committing our time to building, but were unable to also commit all our money. Health and safety has gone way too far. I understand we need to know trails are built for purpose, but there needs some acceptance of liability from the rider that will hold in court.
Today's random fact – I sent the trail name 'Bonneyville' to Rowan for a trail naming competition he was running (probably on FB?) – it didn't win, but he used it for another trail build very soon afterwards – and for those who don't get the reference – it was named after Michael Bonney who did so much for MTB – both in industry but also in rider terms #rideformb
Rowan – quick question – what is the place in Czech Republic that you mentioned helping shaping?
Great episode! Swung many a winter/spring pick and shovel over the (many!) years… Got to! 👊😁