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The Tour de France is just around the corner, we discuss which bike sand bike brads have the most to won and loose. How to choose a bike from a geometry chart, the launch of the new Pinarello Dogma, why do brands continue to spec 28″ tyres on their builds and Chris gives us a full Australian Gravel Championships review.
Check Out Beardy’s Photos: https://beardymcbeard.photoshelter.com/index
Chapters
00:00 intro
00:29 How We Choose A Bike
13:54 Kicked Off Netflix
15:46 Tour de France Preview
19:00 Bikes With Most To Loose
23:07 New Pinarello Dogma F
26:37 Brands Spec Bikes With 28’s
36:44 NeoWorld Giveaway
46:42 Chris At Gravel Nationals
55:42 Is Gravel Racing The Future?
59:29 Challenging Gravel Arguments
1:14:23 TCR Performance Updates
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STRAVA: https://www.strava.com/athletes/186450
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welcome to episode 89 of the Nero show in today’s episode it’s a real mix bag this episode isn’t it Chris we’ve got the new pinello Dogma we chat through it we talk TCR verse S5 climbing bike updates from Chris dodgy bike giveaways the tour to France is around the corner and a little bit of gravel Nationals chat and how do you pick the right size bike frame we do a bit of geometry chat all right let’s get into it how do you choose a bike Jesse oh that seems to just perplex people doesn’t it just listen just go to the Nero Show and Tell and hear what they say is the the most froth worthy bike at the moment or what do you reckon don’t you think this is people really over complicate or over complex this getting a bike of the correct size I feel um especially if you’re someone that already has a bike that you know that fits pry well getting a new bike really isn’t that hard every every time I you know if we’re on teams every time every year every two years we change spond to get a different frame um you have to pick what size is you and it really takes about 30 seconds but it seems to just questions of oh that’s got different oh the the stack is different there and but that’s a medium but how do you write a this one gets me are you’re a large on the giant TC how are you a large you’re you’re 6’2 How could you feel a large it’s like well it it fits it’s not yeah so I I thought what I wanted to do here um is go through next year you’re getting a simplon pride 2 because you’re drinking the Kool-Aid how do you know what size to buy yep but I don’t want you to give like beginner’s gone I want to know just how do you do how would you do it step one St step one straight onto the uh geometry chart and I would first thing I look at is just effective top tube oh effective top tube straight off the bat that’s the first thing I look at controversial this okay well that’s you don’t look at the reach what’s the reach done for me lately straight to the effective top tube get me in there and I will if I’m I’m in the 54 to 55 is range give or take yep we’re we’re we’re going to start looking further down the chart then at that point that was always going to be the starting point okay then I will go ahead and look at the head tube size so this will just give me a little bit idea of how this will play with the front end of the bike now this this this and so I’ll look at the head tube size and then I’ll also look at the seat tube angle because I have been stitched up one or once or twice in the past spe specifically some of the first couple of gravel bikes that I got that the head tube angle was so slack that I was so far back over the bottom bracket I could never actually get anywhere near my road setup so I ultimately look for something around 73 73.5 and most are to be honest um and if I’m then in that ballpark then I’m pretty much going to plant my butt on it and write it and do some adjustments post posting and I’m I’m a I’m a person who has I do flipflop between so when I was racing racing I was down a size of bike because that’s what the cool kids did um ran a 52 normally in fact there was a moment where I was even a 50 absolutely tiny little bike and uh with just a massively longer stem and all that kind of stuff but between that the 52 and the the 54 is let’s just call them those not dramatically different really and or maybe I’ll what about you what’s what’s your sort of routine down this down this Avenue I have it’s similar but different approach so you use the the head tube size for example I think that’s a terrible to do it because even with a similar equivalent head tube size depending on the angles of the frame and the length of the fork you could end up with a different stack and the adjusting your position so you should really be comparing the stack and the reach that’s what I do so I already have um a bike that fits me I’ve always had a bike that fits me so we’d probably have to have a different conversation if it was the first ever row bike you were going to get you think you’re in trouble but I already have the stack and reach that I know is going to fit me and then so I don’t care what the what the number of the frame says it is is entirely irrelevant so the on the tavell Arrow I’m on a 54 which is doesn’t mean anything it’s a it’s a 56 equivalent and so I just got to that um uh figure by just comparing the stack and reach um keeping in mind for me I don’t mind using a few spaces up and down or a different angle stem to get the the stack the right height I always like to use 130 mm length stem so I try and I’m trying to get the correct reach because I find it easier to play around with the stack and generally as well with depending on the bike fit come up and down a little bit easier changing your stem length is a bit difficult so if I was comparing two frames I just go what’s the closest stack in that sizing and use a geometry Geeks doike website to do that um and then you’re getting like you do is is you’re looking at then usually as well you’re between two sizes so I was choosing between the size 54 which is the 56 equivalent which tll call the extra large which is quite weird size between that and they extra extra large which is the size 56 uh 580 which is equivalent to a sort of a size also is actually similar to a size 56 um but I prefer to do the smaller small slightly smaller size run two spaces I I will rarely say this but I actually think your routine is probably much better than mine really I mean what you actually said then about the head tube angle is pretty much correct um there’s there’s not too much denying that I do think like the the way this is going you we’re going to see this more and more like especially like with the Tre thing reducing their what was it skus that means okay they’re also they’re going to reduce models but I think they’re also going to reduce the number of sizes of bikes that they have at some point you’ll see the arican giant might do the same sort of thing where you just got you will a 52 and a 54 might become the same entity and you start to have to negotiate around the edges of it so you mentioned um you’re generally picking the slightly bigger size if you’re between sizes I think you could fit two when would you pick the smaller size so uh what bike you want now the S5 yeah um so I made I made yeah so I rode a 52 on the the I wrote a yeah on the speci on the bianes and then all through the um bigger the devels were you generally running a longer stem how were you compensating for that difference um we’ll see it was a pretty big b of um saddle drop um so I actually and will you remember I was I was actually trying out all kinds of different stem yeah there was rabbit holes upon rabbit holes and full full rabbit that was back in the day when you could change a stem just at the drop of the Hat um yeah so I I did I would run a 130 mil stem and that kind of stuff and put some spaces underneath it um but I mean what’s the advantage of running a bigger bike because I’m the opposite I I prefer to size a bit smaller um because I prefer the long more seat post coming out of the frame makes it more comfortable um a smaller frame is also lighter it’s much lighter to just have more seat post and an extra two spaces than have an entirely bigger bike I also think it’s more aerodynamic just cuz you’ve got a few spaces and the smaller bike generally is feels twitchier which I like um so what yeah what s me why should I well you should you’re good Happy Days my what am I missing out on okay so my mentality was if I’m totally honest with you I’m I want a bigger bike because I’m older and I don’t want it to be as that that was my thinking at the time and then once I actually just went to the move to to the 54 I was like you know what that’s fine they they work for me because I remember I actually rode a size large bike when I was in the US two years ago CU Tyler lent me his aod and it was a large and I remember riding around on it for a week or so and I was like this is Grand like I’m a bit higher I don’t mind this at all and so then when I went back and then eventually went down the route of going into disc Brak bikes I decided you know what actually I might stick to the the larger Bike and Go Go the 54 I mean you can see it on my bikes now there’s not a massive amount of seat post that’s out which is just purely because I am probably but if you look at most of the the generic you know that most of them have the generic body calculator thing type in your height and it will give you the what bike size you are if I type in 175 CM nine times out of 10 I’ll be spat out a 54 cimet bike yeah that’s just the the kind of routine of it um but for you like I don’t think you should run a bigger bike really I mean there’s there’s no advantage in that for you cuz you’re yeah now I’m now see the problem is now I have to run spaces cuz these these especially these Asian frames the geometries are a bit wacky to backy they are a bit they’re still uh actually it’s not that weird because it’s it’s not that far off the SLA geometry but you’ll see look at all the pros that are on Specialized teams hardly any of them have the St stem slam I I don’t know why they they haven’t really got this modern slightly more relaxed head tube um thing and these a lot of these Asian frames as well are just quite a generally longer reach and a shorter um stack so if I was going to get that size up which I I’m denied actually originally picked that one and then went and changed it um because I could have slammed it bet I’d have to get like a one a 110 120 mm long stem instead of a 130 which and then have the seat post lower in the frame maybe that would have been just a bit more planted maybe is the right word well the the reason I Won’t Go Back is because of that thing and I find it’s really the case on especially the TCR cuz I’ve even got spaces under the TCR is I can actually hold that sort of position with the flat elbows um for a long period of time now because I’m actually higher up in that position rather than sort of having to drop further down ultimately I probably would be lower but I don’t I can’t actually hold that position for as long like I can I can hold that bent elbows position head right down for good solid 40 minutes now whereas I wouldn’t be able to do that on the on the 54 on the 52 sorry okay um yeah but you’re like uh did you mention geometry greek.com yeah yeah yeah that’s a great Rabbit Hole I don’t know I wonder and then I’m going who puts these things in are they accurate CU I’m I’m picking the size of a bike based off this stack number I’m like praying they’ve entered the numbers in right cuz I really don’t check but it’s pretty cool you put in your different you go and you search up all your models compare compare compare compare you bring them up and then it shows you you pick the bike um that you have and then that you’re sort of comfortable with and then all the other bikes you’ve selected goes the reach is 7 mil shorter the stack 16 M lower and it’s a really good way to compare but yeah just to um just those questions of like w why are you on that size you’re so tall it’s like it’s it’s a stack and reach I don’t if it says it’s a medium or an XXL or a 57 I don’t even care just the um stack and reaches key so what just I’ve never looked at that seat tube angle thing what do you go for again so I can just see on my what I’m looking around like 73 or 73.5 essentially and that that just if I pair that with a zero offset um seat post well if it’s an external seat post then I’ll be in the region of the setback that I want to be if I if if the if it’s any slacker than that I tend to be in a bit of a problem when it comes to because for me I’m I’m ultimately trying to keep the same position across all the bikes and and if that that angle is off too much you start getting into weird saddle positions way over way over like the rails are sort of bent over and that thing like I think what bike had the were you running into that problem with uh was the chapter two quite yes yeah the chapter 2 was the was one of them um that devel gravel bike was one of them and um the are five any two to France chat to France two France who’s going to win who’s going to win the Tour to France Jesse we almost made the the Netflix documentary we did should we should we tell people tell people I feel like we should well we didn’t get in there so we might as well get some yeah we got punted we got kicked out yeah um so we got we got uh they asked us whether they could use our footage from I I assume it’s when you were calling Jonas a Doper and um suspect alleged suspected alleged and it was quite an embarrassing reply actually well no we replied to them and then three or four weeks later they came back and said um unfortunately we’ve not able to use your content because uh the quality of the video wasn’t good enough and it was a bit of a gut punch I’m not going to lie coming from our audio visual expert here exactly um so and there was that was one of the ones where that camera was really bad like it was full grainy ass and so yeah I was I probably probably accept that accept that call um but yeah anyway not to not to mention it did you did you watch any the Netflix thing let me guess no no who’ they pick though uh they had K Kade on there yeah and I don’t know another one another one they only had Kate and Jimmy on for like a fleeting second I’m actually disappointed they didn’t use yours because it would have been more like interesting controversial like abrupt because uh yeah that was that was that was a good episode actually because I did go back and watch a bit of it actually had some some good chat in it that one um because there was a whole anyway it doesn’t matter um two up yeah there it is so we’re going to do the usual chat so is T pagach or y’s finger card because he he had the injury I don’t know he’s been at altitude it’s going to be a hard start where we’ll see if yonas is able to get through that or not we will see I am excited about it oh yeah I mean you know how I’m I’m the most one I’m pretty anti- the tour I I would love I’ve said this a million times I’d love cycling to be a six-month calendar where everything’s equal and ASO can [ __ ] off and totally disagree we want the Super Bowl everything else can eat [ __ ] and in this particular year 2024 I completely agree with you I am on board for this I am absolutely on board for this so there there’ll be chat at some point don’t you reckon the first three or four days cuz it’s or guys are a bit crashed or you know yonas is is he is he be under cook don’t you reckon you just launched some Rockets the first first at the first climb on the first hilly stage will just be let’s just do 7.5 watts per kilo and just see who’s ready and if we can take two minutes there’s there’s an outcome here where it’s over after stage four or five whatever that Gia stage is um that potentially isn’t good for the race because there’s you know there’s a chance that Remco drops there Primos drops there and it’s just tday and Yates and maybe Almeida doing a little team time trail to the end potentially but hopefully not I mean I agree with you I think it could be a full full out rocket sh who do you want to win no who do you think’s going to win I don’t care who do you want to win I want Primos to win yes oh actually is that interesting I’ll say it anyway I was um this won’t mean anything to you I was really interested to find out in Slovenia who’s the biggest sports star is it is it t is it Luca donic or is it yeah was it those two and the answer is actually Primos the because he’s the people’s champ okay because he’s because of his story that he’s you know came from a different sport blah blah blah blah blah he’s just the people absolutely love Primos so ABS they big fans of the other two and what they’ve done for for the country the country is Tiny it’s unbelievable what that country has done like on a sporting on a global sporting world for the size of that country there only 2 million people it’s unbelievable like I don’t know what’s going on over there but it’s phenomenal like he’s one of the the best potentially the number one basketball player in the world at the moment Luca and they’ve got the number one number one cyclist in the world but I kind of thought it was interesting that Primos is actually the number one sort of sports Personality just where did this come from I’m I’m sniffing around yeah you just got Scouts inia yeah keep and tabs having a look around Nero show research division research who do I want to win is Primos who do I think will win oh okay all right very good you think yonas has had a good altitude Camp no the problem is I have the exact same answer I want Primos to win but I think T’s going to win yeah yep is there any bike brand that has anything to win or lose from this tour so going into last year’s tour I think both of us were like okay this is shr’s moment you know you the eyes of the world are watching can you produce the goods they did they totally cleaned up totally cleaned up Shram dominated and it was like job done is there a similar story line at this year’s tour my only one is Trek I feel Trek have the most to lose cuz I I feel like they’re going to ride the mimas that if they have a bit of a dud tour it’ll be like oh well you been on the old ones maybe that’s my only maybe I’m ignorant I just feel like at the two of France I don’t know what team they’re taking I just feel like what they got mads he might probably roll a stage or two feel like they not really one of the to of France highlight teams usually I I mean I could totally be missing someone they’re just not coming to mind when I think of like gotm oh he’s pretty good form isn’t he yeah but he’s yeah but he was getting Ted up was it to Swiss he was still like getting gapped at there so he won’t be top five to 10 BC of the I mean of the teams that are I think specialized I mean besides if you take out Primos will be on and S works no okay no they’ve probably got a lot to gain I think um yeah it’s been it’s been a while J hinley was sort of just like looking at like top of the sport Juro and start of the tour um so if they can I think to as in terms of something to win um if an S Works can win the Tour of France again um that would be that would be big big news so that’s probably the biggest opportunity H something to lose I don’t know but I think yeah imagine Primos winning the TT France on anks SLA is there a potential where a dark horse wins well I I only think the only potential there’s a lot of time trailing so maybe not but would would be the te would be potentially a teammate of a contender maybe maybe a Yates does like a guarant thomasy type when when FR was there and they’re not able to attack like don’t think so not at the level the top guys are on they’re still putting you know CU they’re just putting they’re putting 45 seconds to a mid everyone at the top of every Hill Climb when the launches actually go so I I just don’t not at the tour unless there was mass crashes or something no I don’t I don’t thoughts on uh yumo sorry Vima Lisa bikes kit they have to do that because of the color of the Jersey don’t they they have to change the didn’t they usually just change the tone of the yellow not the actual entire color um they did a really Cube or or interm whatever the team’s called did a good um post they’re like oh yeah we we’re flattered or whatever cuz it’s it is the exact same SC color scheme as that Cube um lightning aob bike um it’s a sexy S5 I’m sorry it’s yeah that’s a nice looking S5 um I will say the kit for [ __ ] sake another [ __ ] blue kit I know what are we doing just you’re joking me aren’t you especially cuz Bora is going to be in blue kit there’ll be the Red Bull kit I mean that will probably happen whilst I’m editing this so just put it here uh but yeah I mean that’ll go that color as well supposedly there’s eight eight or nine special tour to France kits so we haven’t seen all of them as yet but they all churn them out for it which is good makes gets us all excited I think the boys were saying that it’s it’s like the two and an under because the first couple of days you’re like going which team is that team is this yeah yeah we’ll see a new pinell Dogma being raised we will see a new pinell Dogma which we alluded to as was being shephered away by a pretend no that was a whole conspiracy theory and then they released it two weeks later yeah no how dare you film this in a public place uh yes so new Pinal Dogma your thoughts Jess I don’t know if people expecting us to do a big deep dive I feel like given the price it’s not a market mover and Shaker as far as I’m concerned I don’t think they selling as anywhere near as many as you know TS and specializes and Giants so you know what do I reckon um there still going to be producing the old version in the rim breake frame which is cool keep them mold keep the factory pumping them out so if you want to relatively modern Rim brake bike you can still get the old Dogma F that is cool actually I didn’t know that that L money to keep doing that and I can’t imagine there’s thousands and thousands and thousands of people that want to buy a brand new Rim brake frame so fair play on that uh kind of one of my gripes with the more expensive bikes is you seem to be getting less choice so yeah okay Pinella Fram sets cost a gazillion dollars but at least they’re keeping that one around so fair play um this this one okay yeah marginal updates Tire clearance officially still 30 mm uh and this is a conversation we’re going to have to have maybe next week we have this conversation around what is the optimal race Tire cuz I got I got plenty of opinions on it but um so officially fits 30 which generally means it’ll fit a 32 uh with a still a few M to clear so yeah maybe you can fit a a 32 measured on there um you know pretty pretty dated I I think I feel like it should be like the sl8 is officially fits 32 which means you’re probably fitting 33 34 no problem that’s the problem I think we’re at a point where we need more than we need a better way of communicating this information rather than it fits up to we need an actual number of what’s I don’t know what play what part of the bike is that called is that the the the chain Stay Bridge or something we need a measurement so then we actually know what the actual measurement is because as you know if a 30 2 mil tire on my rever Reserve tires blows out to almost 34s and on the kadex will stay very close to 30 so there’s almost like a four mil Gap in what is really happening mhm but it’s still the same Tire just due to the internal rim width of the actual of the wheels so we’re going to need a better way to indate because when they state that they they may be saying measured width so it fits up to 30 mm measured but what clearance is that is that with 3 mil either side or 5 mil I know I I’m pretty sure they’re quite conservative with that um when they say it fits up to that’s giving like plenty of clearance most people can fit more but yeah it would be it’ be cool to have a better idea of okay measured width with at least 3 mm of clearance either side of the tire and that that could be this the standard brands are still and I still don’t get this maybe we’ve jumped down a rabbit hole we we just believe our own height maybe that’s probably true but brands are still mostly specking bikes at 28s are we going to have this chat now should we do it yeah I think so all right let’s go why not I don’t get it I I really don’t get it I mean I I’m h i I want to talk about the TCR a bit more today um but I still don’t understand why it comes with 28 cuz I just it just doesn’t feel as good as a 30 and it was one kind of one one of the interesting thing well so um Francis did a video where they roasted my bike I sent the thing in for them and I went through the spec of the bike it was a good laugh whatever but they comment cuz I said I’m running 30s and both of them were like whoa he’s running 30s to race on like what’s going on there he must be just doing crits and stuff I’m like no like that’s what I ride everywhere on and I race road Racers on because they’re faster like I’m not doing them because they’re not because they feel better I’m I think they’re faster anyway whatever go on okay this is what I still understand is that the brands are telling us optimal tire width is anywhere from you know on a specializ they still sell those 26 mil turbo Cottons or at most it’s about a 28 is that they they’ll tell the rims are designed for a 28 M tie the tie clearance fits it’s safely with a 28 but if you’re some weirdo you could maybe fit a 30 that’s kind of what we’re getting at example with that Dogma and I also uh I don’t get why that is because let’s look at the the factors you’ve got rolling resistance of the tire on bicycle rolling resistance uh they compared this so they got 23 25 28 and 32 mil withth and a GP 5000 now keep in mind this is with a tube so not tubeless this is also tested with on on just a steel drum so it’s not even on the road but it’s probably one of the best we’ve got and this was also on a very narrow inter they use a very narrow internal U width steel rim when they test in their testing jig I think it’s like 17 mil internal the rim so it’s a very old Rim so these results I’d argue would even be more favorable to The Wider tires on a modern wider Rim because you’re not having that big mushrooming on the on the thing but regardless of that at the recommended tire pressures to get a 15% kind of Tire drop so basically yeah if you’re if you’re running a 32 you’re not going to ride it at the same pressure at 25 so you can’t compare at equal pressures so at the recommended air pressures so lower pressure as the tires get wider a 25 mil is GP 5000 they tested as 10.7 watts of rolling resistance the 28 is 10.8 watts and the 32 mil wide is 11.4 Watts so they’re all pretty they’re all within a watt in terms of rolling resistance but why the hell would you a 28 if you can run a 25 run a 32 which is basically the same rolling resistance it’s going to have a lot more grip it’s going to be uh on rougher roads it’s going to be more comfortable because you have more volume in the tire um it will be a little heavier I guess if you’re a real weight win you wouldn’t want to do that but and so I could understand maybe at the two of France at the top the pro level you could maybe argue that a 28 is faster aerodynamically if you got a wide rim actually 30 or a 32 is ideal like it’s kind of designed for that wi tire so for the average competitive I’m not even going to say enthusi for you I can’t see why a brand would be telling you a 28 is an optimal tire I I just don’t I don’t know why unless it’s a case of our frames don’t really have the clearance yet ow we’re still producing and the molds are still for relatively narrow internal Rim widths so we don’t really want everyone to adopt 32 mil tires we’re not ready for it yet that’s what I think it is I I think it’s just we have manufacturing process that requires 22 mil internal Rim widths for the next 18 months 24 months so we need to push them out until we make the move I’m can I just can I just ask you a question on that because that’s the numbers there that’s what I’m seeing it’s like it’s the same speed but you get more grip and it’s more comfortable you those on that air Road you had 28s didn’t you they’re not a good example because those Wheels were quite narrow they were quite narrow yeah so I actually ran 25s on those right okay because yeah what’s your I mean what’s your experience you kind of already said it but just to confirm like is your experience on the road backing up what I’m saying here 100% you’re just like why would I run a 28 it’s just a a no-brainer for me at this point I mean obviously again given internal rim width of a wheel um being around minimum 22 like it has to normally I would imagine bigger than that but yeah I just can’t see a situation where I wouldn’t do that and I genuinely feel like the the road feel of it just purely going on Purely going on feel is faster it’s it’s just a smoother faster feeling over the road um and even in my two use cases between the two times that I did grafting this year one was on 25s one was on 30s and it was a completely different experience on the 30s like that middle section of rough gred horrible Road was fine know any back issues or anything like that so it it plays out on the road for me yeah I think it’s kind of interesting because that it seems like the middle ground now is the 28 that’s your race tire and then if you ride on really rough stuff you can probably go up to a 30 maybe a 32 that’s kind of what a lot of the brands are saying and again I think my my push back on that is why why like no the bike brands don’t really explain why they kind of just say we think the optimal race tire is 28 so I’m going to hit that up I have a I have a meeting booked with some product people at kadex when I’m at eurobike and that’s top of my list to to find out that questions okay so I have that up is this actually might be a good opportunity for me to say that so yeah uh next week um God is next week yeah next week I’ll be in Frankfurt for eurobike for a couple of days sniffing around with Shane Miller and the boys trying not to get myself in too much trouble with any other uh any other bike bike Tech reviewers but um the reason I want to bring that up now is that next week’s show I’m certain will not adhere to the timing protocol so normally we go live sort of um um 1:00 a.m. Thursday on Sydney time that’s just been this the case for probably three or four months now I’m certain we’re not going to be able to adhere to that timing because that won’t give me enough time to be at EUR aike and then get some sort of assemblance of what’s going on and sit down and talk to you so my guess is we’re going to be a little bit delayed but I’m also not against the idea of there being quite a few shows maybe two or three next week while I’m gone so we my my this is a long way of me saying if you actually want to watch these shows and we’re at eurobike subscribe to the channel yes do it stop begging bloody well subscribe because otherwise the algorithm you need to how would you find the show if you aren’t subscrib it happens I had saw this guy’s comment the other day he’s like oh the algorithm stop feeding me the show I didn’t even know you guys were still doing it bloody will subscribe then um yeah so yeah that’s that’s where I’ll be and obviously if you have any specific questions of interest you want me to hit up some brands with drop them in the comments and and I’ll do my best I’m Keen for that I’m I’m I’m quite happy to to also to to to get on the 28 mil bandwagon but yeah interested to see you know why not why because you know aren’t isn’t tday aren’t they all running the UA guys are running 30s 32s a standard yeah y why why are Brands like kex Bontrager they’re all hanging on to it yeah don’t know don’t know the answer to that let’s find out okay time for a quick mention from today’s show partner bikes online your One-Stop shop for all things cycling as we’ve mentioned in the past they have heaps of brands on the site Pock waho 100% Shram laser and the polygon Helios we have that massive deal continuing on this week but before we get the details of that Jesse what are you seeing on the site there I just want to highlight how crazy this Nero 5 Cod is cuz these bikes were already discounted I’ve always been talking already been talking about them the tamboras is the the polygon gravel bikes that bikes online are bringing in let me give you an example here so the Tambora g8x which is full carbon frame carbon wheels tier clearance for up to 45 mm tires and Sham rival axxis electronic shifting that was already on sale discounted for $ 3999 Australian with the discount 5% off that’s getting another $200 off that so you for $3,800 Australian doar you’re getting a carbon gravel bike with carbon wheels with electronic strand shifting that is crazy pricing so even I mean it was crazy before but with that discount um that is a killer deal and something I’d be Runing around on that code nero5 is active on current sale prices of these particular products the pock omni light helmet that entire Helios road range and the Tambora range on both the Australian and the US sites so that code is nero5 for an additional 5% off on top of that you got 30 days free bike returns in case you’re not 100% happy and free shipping for all purchases over $79 I’ll drop all the links to those items in the description down below and thanks again to bikes online for supporting Today’s Show I saw this one pop up on my Instagram feed Chris and I had a a pretty strong reaction to it so I want to explain what this busy thing is get your get your thoughts see if you see if you’re with me okay so it’s this thing that popped up called Neo world right which is a uh a membership and basically a giveaway uh program thing run by uh the lady that started Neo procycling the kit brand um so yeah neoy has been running while she start up this new business called Neo World which is basically it’s called a a perks based membership and we’ve I’ve seen this style of thing a lot in the automotive industry and in in other areas I haven’t really seen it much in cycling which is um it’s a essentially it’s marketed as sign up for my sign up for this program we we give you good U exclusive discounts member discounts but actually what you’re signing up for is a monthly giveaway where they where they giving away a prize okay it’s essentially a way around Australian or whatever country you’re in’s uh sort of Lottery laws like to run a a lottery you have to have a license a Gambling License so you can’t do that you can’t just start a lottery so the way around that is you do this you you sell this membership for five bucks a month 10 bucks a month where you’re giving them something which is these discounts which they’re probably never going to use but people are really signing up because they want to win that new Lamborghini that new Porsche the new whatever it is house in this case it’s this is a cycling version of it where the headline article the headline sort of giveaway for the end of June that she’s putting in there is you win a track wi win a track bike valued at $10,000 so just to put this out there it’s it’s not illegal and as far as I’m Weare it’s not a scam because they will be doing the giveaway but it’s it’s a I would say unethical way around gambling Lottery laws because you’re essentially running a massive raffle um by skirting skirting the rolls and I think um let let’s go through it here so um we’re on here Neo Neo world uh so become a member for as little as $250 a week for a chance to win this track valued at $10,000 so clearly you’re you’re purchasing a membership to this platform to win prizes not for the the discounts so what I’m talking about here says you know they they got to put for legal reasons they got to put the discounts in but what’s the discounts it’s free shipping with jet black cycling trainers 10% off heaps normal alcohol free beer good alcohol free beer by the way uh 10% off neopro you no one’s signing up to get you know these are sort of things you you’d get a better discount in an email if you join the email list so it’s no one’s paying to get access to that so they they’re signing up to go into the J giveaway so June giveaways um there was one here social media followers price back valued at 2500 on the 14th of June 21st of June they’re giving away jetb Vault trainer and then 30th of June the the bigger one for the month a track bike of your choice up to $10,000 um and so how much are people paying to enter this bizarre Lottery um so lower level here domestic uh $9.99 a month and that gives you one free giveaway entry $25 a month gives you five entries five giveaway entries $50 a month you get 10 entries um now if this just what so what am I getting at here uh I think this is um what’s wrong with this Jesse what’s wrong with this H um this is a firstly it’s just a complete cash grab you’ve got no ideas the odds of winning um you’ve got no idea how many people are entering this kind of thing and if this had just popped up on my feed and it was just I don’t know cycling lottery I would scroll through in two seconds I wouldn’t even be talking about it but the fact that it’s associated with neopro cycling is really interesting because I’ve always been a big fan of neoo cycling in that they’re catering towards people that don’t want to spend $4 $500 on a cycling kit really good entrylevel kit that looks pretty nice and I think so it’s Lizzy West that runs at neopro cycling I think she’s done a really good service to the cycling Community by running neopro because I think the kit they sell has always been really good value and is is really good for people getting into cycling that either don’t have a lot of money or don’t want to spend a lot of it on cycling gear so to then come up with this giveaway under the same naming promoted to the same audience which are probably naturally going to want to get this sort of Trek bike I think is actually really disgusting I I have no I I can’t put it any other nicely nicer than that um because you’ve you’ve C you cat this perfect you’re kind of it’s a perfect captured audience that want really good value stuff and then you’re saying here pay me 10 bucks a month or 20 bucks a month to gamble in this Lottery to win this track bike that most of them aren’t going to have chances you know just because of the demographic the wording of it as well gets me I’m going to keep going you feel free to come in at any time because I’ll just keep going neopro is now intered in Neo a perks based membership platform it’s a it’s a it’s a gambling Lottery but you can’t call it that because you gets given a massive fine by the Australian government uh offering members exclusive cycle rating prizes discounts which you could get from anywhere um so basically exclusive cycing appliers is um the initiative aims to further support and engage the Australian cycling Community I think this is not where is that where’s that language this is it’s under here it says who is Lizzy and neopro cycling that so it’s that sentence it I mean it’s not supporting in supporting this it’s it’s basically in my opinion praying on an AS of the Australian cycling Community who are going to be pulled in by this marketing of seeing the track bike which they desperately want and paying $50 a month $30 a month to potentially win it I think that’s not that’s why yeah it’s not illegal I think it’s ethically questionable um marketing from a woman who’s run a brand that was actually one of the if I said who who who is doing good for the cycling community it was Neo Pro cycling I think that’s what’s and this is the this is literally the opposite this is the the grubbiest ethically questionable thing you could probably come up with this is uh that’s what’s that’s what’s pricked my ears up here so this is just so go Coast can I just say that straight away um but you’re right and and this is um I think the the challenging part for this is because her brand her whole vibe is this I’m down to earth you can trust me believe in me I’m I’m I’m bringing you a product that you can that you can not only afford but you can get behind and I’ve got that sort of Grassroots look and feel to to everything I’m doing you know me essentially and I’m just sort of scrolling through this um Neo World thing there’s one two three four five pictures of her so you you are really using her personality and ultimately your belief in her as an individual that this is a very valuable addition to the the cycling culture but you’re right there’s a there’s a sneakiness I think to to what you’re actually doing here I mean you’re you’re getting members for really not much M yeah well the yeah I mean the the whole you can so there’s this this really popular one I was reading I watched a video read article on it months ago this this thing lmct plus this guy that runs in but usually he’s giving away cars and things like that oh yeah Adrian portelli that’s why I was aware of this it was kind of weird timing that I read this a couple months ago and then I saw this pop up I’m like oh it’s the cycling version of this thing um and that’s that’s right you get you know 10,000 people to pay 20 bucks a month and you give away $10,000 bike and you do the that’s that’s that’s where the cash is and um there’s probably a chunk of people that probably say well you know it’s you know I’m happy to pay it just that’s the risk of the thing I just think when you’re doing it specifically towards that audience I don’t get it I I just yeah I was just anyway that’s my I don’t know if I have much more to say then I was really disappointed to see it CU I had a lot of respect for her and the business and now this is probably the one of the least respectable things I’ve seen business-wise the way it kind of works as well is if you if you signed up now your odds are winning are probably not that bad because it wouldn’t have there’s probably not 10,000 people signed up to enter but then someone goes oh it’s amazing I look I won I I won and then it’s kind of six months down the track and there’s 10 times as many people entered and then two years down the track and there’s a hundred times as many people entered uh and then you’re kind of relying on that social feedback even though the odds are God knows how many it’s a very interesting business isn’t it could do very well yeah could be very lucrative yeah not to mention you get the reoccurring that’s the other thing it’s it’s reoccurring signup a subscription based model and it’s just 20 bucks a month people you know don’t even what it’s Netflix you don’t even really know you’re pay for it all right know look how excited you are cuz it’s like the gravel portion look at oh I was waiting for this I thought oh the next topic oh [ __ ] it’s are you in for this uh an give me a look at this medal come on yes so for those of you not on YouTube and wondering what the hell we’re doing this is an oz cycling national championships silver medal for the national gravel championships correct 2024 congratulations Chris yes thank you thank you it was there was much in doubt much in doubt that I would actually finish gravel race finally I did so yeah can I talk about it let I’ve got some I’ve got some uh I got some wider thoughts on gravel in general but I would actually like to give you a little bit of a rundown about the actual event if that’s all right with you so it’s in a most like many events in cycling it was in a difficult difficult enough place to get to down in Tasmania in Derby which is about an hour and a half from leston so flew down to leston drove across to Derby checked out the course the day before with a couple of guys I were staying with thank God I did and um then race day so we’re about minus four on the start line so as you can imagine I was the chat my chat for like 24 hours is just what am I wearing what we wearing what am I wearing and we the accommodation that Jon OA was so close to the start line I did three wardrobe changes at the so I went down to the start line got said not too cold went back up added something went back down got didn’t have good enough gloves so went back up got those as well so it changed quite a few times um yeah National so this was essentially well it was a national championship so not a massive overall field because it’s a very um competitive thing there wasn’t really this was not marketed as a mass participation style event by any stretch and yeah you were Hound you were sort of penned into your uh starting into your age group so they had the elites and they weirdly they also had an opens category I’m not really sure why but anyway um an opens category then you’ve got your sort of your Masters categories in behind straight up about three minute well the Open men is just non- Elite 24 year old but that wouldn’t be a national championships no no okay right um so okay so that is I suppose the mass participation element of it yeah yeah if you’re not entering if you’re not a master’s category yeah okay cool um yeah so straight up a three minute and I think this is really good with gravel races the better the more they do this the better where you basically go straight up a hill from the from the gun up a road climb before you turn in onto the gravel so this was about 3 minutes straight up a hill and I was about 200 150 people deep being back in your age group but you do all start together so it’s not like waves go off it’s just all start together and Away you go into into the gravel [ __ ] show and 45 minute climb on the gravel straight away and that’s it’s crazy how you go from being with all these people you I I spent probably half that time on that climb completely solo within minutes of starting this race so it really does split up very quickly um full gas to to the top all that kind of stuff um got dropped from the group that I was in on The Descent and this is this is sort of one of the things that kind of is yes it’s frustrating but it’s just the reality of how this stuff plays out for me is that I do better on the climbs and then get kind of dropped on the descents how scary was The Descent this is a bit that gets me cuz I this is why I wouldn’t go cuz I wouldn’t want to race a gravel descent how what are we out of 10 are we are you kind of just so we wck the course the day before we went and wrecky this first climb in this first descent I I’m almost annoyed that I did because I probably wouldn’t have done this race if I’d known how hectic that descent was going to be um if this was wet I mean cuz it was so it was dry it was just sort of damp cold but not mud so yeah steep loose loose bouldery I’ll bring up some b roll of of what iten seen The Boll okay I have watch again you can’t anytime you look at b roll never looks like crazy as it was in the moment um but yeah so it it was that particular section was was hectic um so I got dropped from my group in that first descent chased back on second climb which was more of a Cris climb it was kind of like 5% much better graded um very top had a little steep pitch so I dropped the group that I was in there they then all caught me on The Descent and that descent like that was one of those descents where there’s because you’re back CU I’m just so tense on these descents you’re just yeah it’s just really there’s nothing natural about it necessarily for me um like to the end of it I’m giving it the full like come on Chris just hang on Chris like like really trying to Psy myself up CU like my whole body is like seizing up from being so tense so they all catch me then on The Descent this third climb which was an absolute brute uh really really rough so couldn’t get out of the saddle at any point which you know I kind of like to do managed that was kind of the big moment for me because I managed to drop the guys that I was with and Bridge across to a group of Elites who are in front so at that point then I caught uh Taz and Conor s who I think had flattered and I managed to just get on a group which had them in it and that kind of then when we got to that fce flat section sort of sped me along um just hung on to them on the Descent and uh ultimately then I found that I was in a group with the guy who was I was fighting it out with for the for the national championships in my age group uh he started to get a cramp on the the last last climb so dropped him then he caught me on The Descent and we both went into the finish together and it’s like a cycle cross finish so like on an oval where you have like LS of chicanes and stuff and how do you think that was going to go for me versus the mountain bike and he dusted me up embarrassingly so actually in that last Corner railed it around the corner and and took the win so and I was thinking oh if you just red it too much and just slid out you just Bradbury through takser okay so I don’t know like obviously stoked and it’s it’s funny I was talking about it afterwards it is it is really satisfying finishing an event like that because so much has to go right and this is the thing we can get into this but like there are things that you can try and mitigate like I ran as you saw bulletproof like absolute War prooof tires but what I thought was so when I saw that descent that scary descent I thought okay well I’ll take some pressure out of the tires because doesn’t that mean it’s safer and I’ve got more grip but um jonno one of the guys who rides Elites was saying no what you do is you put more air in the tire because you don’t want to pinch flat because those those um Stones you’re more likely to whack one of them pinch flat your tire blow it out and then you’re probably putting a tube in it and all that sort of stuff because you can’t actually um like plug it so you want to go higher pressure just put up with the fact that it’s going to be a rougher gutsier ride for you on the bumps but you’ve got more puncture protection against pinch flat so that’s what I did and potentially that helped me out um so it’s like lots of things like that have to go right and you physically got to have pretty good legs to get around it so I get the satisfaction from it but yeah there’s just so many people you’re talking to after who just have stories of oh yeah had a flat and couldn’t fix it and all this sort of stuff but yeah the grx worked perfectly fine um the sparrow was fine the crw wheels Panda Podium ones all good happy days with those there’s definitely some cut through actually happening on those those Wheels specifically even in that scene kind of noticed a lot of people coming up so I have seen those yet like such good value Etc so definitely some value there again just super wide internal Rim widths and so light really good ran a hydration pack dropped the water bottle so dropped 100 carbs on the way which wasn’t particularly ideal and then being in the cold there’s that other thing of cold you got gloves on you’re on a gravel course like eating and drinking is like that’s a whole skill in itself to work out when to actually get gels out and I didn’t go the sugar flas because I thought if I sugar flask and it bumps out I lose it then there’s 250 gram so anyway I don’t know if that was the right thing to do but but what do I think of like gravel racing like am I hooked on this I’m like we we we talked about this I think the other week like I’m still in this absolute balance of well if I want to do a 4-Hour hard bike race what choices do I have now I mean we just heard I it’s not a race I know but we just heard that snowy classic another four four and a half hour event that goes around hilly mountains in Australia just got cancelled so that’s another road event gone and yeah it’s not even a race but this is a race this is a Podium and it’s it’s a thing you got to go do it’s a national championship I’m just looking at it and and I not that have anything against it so I actually coach in two of the Masters men’s age C category I coach two of the national champions that won this was a fantastic weekend for me for me personally as a coach and for Riders I have that did it um so I have nothing against the event but it’s it’s you know these are guys with mountain bike backgrounds um these are you know if you win a masters national champions this is an elite sort of thing I I wouldn’t even be comfortable going and doing this this terrif I the I looked you know I was looking at the course kind of seeing what what it looks like I’m I’d be terrified to enter that am I am I just a [ __ ] or is it really what’s it like riding around there is it what would I be like there if I’d race you turned up you would have just gone home yeah because it is really that difficult but you do you would have done what I did which is three months ago you started to do a couple of rides with Edwin and you know you’re like oh okay sort of fell over a bit there and then another month later you did another one and then you’re like okay I son is starting to get the hang of it and you just slowly sort of piece together a few skills I mean you’re not wrong specifically about this go I mean I was talking to the guy who won and he was like I he was shocked that I was there cuz he’s like I know you’re a ro this is not a Ro’s course it’s just not a R’s course um and and like perfect example like I lost the elites the guys who like won Elites I lost a minute and a half on the on the on a 35 minute climb lost a minute and a half to them on the The 4minute Descent well on on the on a five minute descent for me it was four minutes for them I lost the same time on The Descent to the elites that I did on a 35 minute clim so yes and that’s that’s just the the kind of balance of it are are you a [ __ ] for not going and do I think you’re a [ __ ] for not trying it okay okay but ultimately um I just feel like there’s still just a massive bar like if someone’s if you haven’t said this but if someone’s trying to sell me as this is look Road Racing’s done give up the road go Offroad I just look at I mean this was a national championship so you’re expecting it to be difficult but I’m just looking at the the barrier to this um I just feel like at a skill level is quite high like if you want to talk about things that are elitist um yeah the Vibe might be really nice but this I feel like this is super elitist cuz it’s extremely technically difficult so um you know obviously this it’s a gravel Nationals but if someone’s if you were trying to say look I know the road stuff is dying you know it’s really sad but just come and do Devil’s cardigan like that’s what I mean I may as well do downhill mountain biking like I about just as uncomfortable doing either so I do want to do can we do like a few PR gravel arguments that I want to like challenge a bit which are and I think some of these are sort of pushed by the industry and I just want to kind of have a bit of a chat about oh yes whatever like and this is now I’ve done one gravel race I can I can say this right um but you hear this and you see this in the comments all the time I’ll grabble racing safer so much safer I have never been more scared for my life than I was for four hours on S Saturday morning like I I understand absolutely that the the issues of motorists and cyclists seen enough of that but like when I showed the footage of me doing some of this to Elizabeth she’s like I don’t want to see that like don’t show me that ever again she doesn’t want to know that I’m out doing that go descend auna Bay fine or descend Three Peaks and push yourself to the extremes but just descending things like that which you know normal mountain bikers would look at and go whatever it’s like a green run what are you talking about I know yeah for them it’s it’s like the the most tame version of so I just the whole and again like if you live in rural New South Wales like if you live in wager of course riding on a gravel road is going to be safer than riding on 100 km hour one laned highway I I get that but that’s not our life and it’s not the life of I would argue the majority of Metropolitan cyclists they know their Roots they know their areas and you know there’s there’s safety in that and to then be just thrown into a thrown into a circumstance which is right out of completely left field for you is terrifying especially when you have people flying past you like one guy going just [ __ ] send it Miller like oh what I am sending it at me this is sending it the only thing there is I mean there is that course in particular cuz you got something like Gees and beers in which is is that a race not going why we why is every discussion [ __ ] it we going to get so sick of us um but uh it’s a competitive gravel ride but that’s not that’s off-road but it’s not Technic which is the next Point okay so which is the is it more inclusive is gravel writing more inclusive okay and this is where there is that Nuance to it because there are plenty of events which are the inclusive gravel events um I think there’s like gravel Easter and the these sort of things that that are but what do you mean mean inclusive I mean what’s exclusive about a road equivalent event is there is it this Vibe thing that people is it is that a thing is that what you’re kind of getting at I should say I met this guy after the event day after the event Adam and he’d just done he’d done the the race and he was like oh I watched your Peaks video I never thought I could do it until I watched your video and I’m like so you just rode Devil’s cardigan no bother got around it but Peaks is something and so that kind of challenged the way I think because I I think the other way normally that something like Peaks is more attainable because potentially is more visible or whatever but he just flipped the flipped my thinking on that because it wasn’t until he saw my video on it that he was like oh well maybe I can do that oh I think they’re just apples and oranges Peaks is phys physiologically far more difficult than Devil’s cardigan it’s just that the technical aspect is different so probably maybe that’s what he was getting at but I’m kind of getting at this thing that’s um you know in terms of your list of push backs this kind of thing well gravel is just more friendly and it’s more uh more inclusive more inviting aside from the technical nature did you see that well because of the elite and the teams aren’t there it it it does have a community aspect and that that’s just the nature of so if if that was a Nationals event we’ve seen these you’d all be off segregated into your team right and you’d be staying with your team and no one would really interact with each other but because this this little small bubble of elite guys and you know everyone’s in their little groups but they all eventually come together because it’s just not that biger community and it’s doesn’t have the same oh well he’s getting offers from that team and that kind of stuff it just doesn’t really work like that that yeah it is more conclusive I will say like the presentation at the end of this race there was like 200 people in this school hall I’ve never seen this is the greatest presentation I’ve ever been to of any bik I mean I’ve been to NRS races where was literally a dog and an old bloke and someone with a camera you know and it was just kind of passed Everyone by so it definitely it definitely had the inclusiveness of it for an elite event I definitely think the whole it’s the future thing that’s the other sort of angle it’s like oh the industry is telling us this is the future yes because this whole thing no is seemingly funded by the industry okay it’s just even even the the athletes themselves the especially like the elite guys you know they’ll be sponsored by bike brands that’s just the way it works and so that en enables them to get to these events enables them to get equipment most of the guys in the sort of top 10ish of this of the elite race would have been fully supported with their gear and potentially with some sort of Finance maybe race bonuses and that kind of thing so they’re they’re fully supporting or fully propping up that level of the event they’re also tend to be the major sponsors is behind the events themselves and so you’re in this position and I don’t this is I’m not saying this is a good or a bad thing I’m just saying that you know the bike industry’s always got a vested interest in what’s happening bikewise but specifically with gravel it’s got a real vested interest in it because well it’s funding it from what I can from what I can gather at this point I mean there’s there’s certainly you know Jerry Ryan hasn’t started throwing his money into this end of the sport yet um nor is any corporate so know whilst whilst the industry is telling us that this is what you should be doing they’re going to continue funding what you so what are we talking about you’re talking about something like uh Devil’s cardigan and you’ve got Shram all over the banners lining the course and they help fund the event it was Shimano it was Shimano okay Shimano you got Shimano banners everywhere you’ve got Shimano sponsored riders in the race so yeah Shimano put money in to run the event they give money and Equipment support to the elite Riders to come to the event so that the events run then you come in and buy a shano grx equipped which is a very similar model to from what I understand to really all off-road stuff works okay really I mean that’s that’s basically how how it kind of works to get the top guys to go you you know pay for them to go or whatever it might be and you’re saying because of that relationship it’s the future of competitive roades events because I’m not the the the roadside is too getting too difficult no I’m saying that the industry is telling us it’s the future because they’re funding it right okay that’s why I mean you know they they they’re they’re not they’re not or are they funding it because it is the future well there’s that’s that’s that’s what the the the industry guys will tell you absolutely and you know I will I will get chat after this about oh you know stop ragging on gravel blah blah blah I’m not ragging on it I’m just having I just want to have an open honest conversation about it that isn’t just full drinking the Kool-Aid about oh it’s the I want to kind of pull it apart a bit to see like what’s actually underneath this do you think it would make a difference to the road scene if the industry partners that are supporting the gravel scene did the same or did it moved it to Road like would that actually make a difference because so Shimano do support the the classics events don’t they they’re at they’re at Barrel classic um pretty sure they do the neutral support for some of those events don’t they fair point but I’m sort of also looking at down down to an athlete level and I certainly know that having dealt with both those brands in the past that fully supported Road athletes domestic Road athletes in terms of what was from from those brands on the road few and far between in fact borderline non-existent okay and that however does seem to be more of the case when it comes to off-road okay I don’t think that’s a bold statement I’m happy to be corrected Down Below on that I know there are some road races in this country who are fully supported but not many probably can’t name it I should say like when I’m saying they’re fully supported like there’s no gravel domestic Pro who’s living the good life it’s very much a hand to mouth like there might be a win bonus so there’s certainly a lot of competitiveness around getting a win bonus but a win bonus might be couple thousand doll Max yeah well it’s totally different but here vers the for people list in the US it’s a you know we’re talking it’s like a different sport so we pry much but and it’s interesting that that the the um discussion a lot of the time is that that’s the goal the goal is to try and get on your on the line and there were a few lifetime uh athletes at this particular event um both in men and women and it’s still at a phase where it’s really ad hoc you know you’re sleeping on couches really I mean you even I won’t name names but like the top guys are couch surfing for for some of these events in the US even though it looks like it’s some big Pro Adventure for them oh my last thing and yes I realized that my one gravel race has made me an absolute expert on this I’m like why we even yeah to me it’s still just pretty as in the broader cycling sphere more which is generally more Road oriented the to me the gravel stuff is still irrelevant obviously for the guys that are do doing it and that’s their sport to me it’s still like mountain bike I don’t see it as this kind of like transition thing yet that’s why like even talking about it I’m kind like I’m interested to because it’s kind of I find interesting but it’s not it’s just not a pushing back it’s not a thing it’s like some that’s and that’s not wrong to say either and that’s what I kind of hate about when anyone talks about gravel at the moment you’ve got to you’ve got to put on this like rose tinted glasses thing all the time about it being this incredibly it’s the future etc etc like the numbers still are if you look at things like likes on Instagram posts like the the um and Brendan Johnson won the men’s one and O cycling posted had like 600 likes for for as a national I mean like and I do think this is sort of important to say that until the industry works out how this sport or this niche of the sport can engage a mass participation style event it’s going to stay a niche sport like until it has the boopers and the Levis Grand fondos or whatever it might be that just gets the punters in it’s going to stay small and I I personally don’t think that their angle of trying to prop up the elite end is actually a good make the courses is easier like seeing guys walk through mudded Unbound or whatever b roll you’re going to put on this video which I can tell you now I’m probably going to crap myself is is a turn like something like dirty wary is which is flat flatter is still some rollers in it to me is more at my alley or or gears and beers I go okay I can kind of get around that i’ probably go and do something like that um so I would I would be happy if now the racers probably don’t like that cuz they go this makes it more of a road race but I would yeah if the courses can get less technical less chances of punctures less of a skill component if you want to get Ries like if if you don’t want to get the Ries and you want to keep you want to keep this an off-road first xco look I have the I know the words now um guys who are top riders in their own disciplines absolute weapons you want to keep that absolutely G outs keep keep this but if you actually want to get Jesse Coyle to come and do it and I do think you do because and even all the new Co babies most of those Co babies especially in Sydney and metropolitan areas didn’t just get on and start riding gravel bikes they got on on road road bikes and so if you want to go and convince them to go do this you got to chill it out a bit like I do I do honestly think that I do want to actually make a video from this particular event um however uh big shout to Josh Luke who ran cameras for me I ran my camera however I didn’t actually get any of the good stuff that happened on my cameras um so if anyone’s got random GoPro footage that they want to share with me let me know DM me um I’ve reached out to the people at Devil’s cardigan um we’re getting there think they quite yeah anyway get it just yet but potentially we’ll get there I’d want to see a I’m actually going to watch this part of the this episode because I want to see this this footage is descending and see what it’s see what it’s like yeah you work at Devil’s card again get in contact with me I want some actual proper content and uh yeah the other one was so one of the things they did do really well is they got the photographers there so there are I know weal about this a bit but there are epic photos like Bey was there um I’ll drop a link to Bey down below but he’s he was there shooting his things and people want that you want the Epic looking images I did I saw him once on the camera on the the buggy and I was just like got straight to the front like right I’m getting my C I’m getting my photo here yes um all right so that’s enough gravels can I talk about the TCR yeah let’s go um so I keep getting asbo people in person like so should probably shouldn’t say the people other riters are asking other Riders other Riders the people sounds very Grandy the people are asking no someone you met was curious yeah what do you really think of the TCR it’s like I’m holding something back it’s like what are you really I know you said that but give us the so okay maybe I can do for those that haven’t been following along what I think is your current standing of Chris’s opinion on the TCR segment of the Nero show which was you notice the difference when you’re doing 300 watts in Centennial Park it’s not a huge difference but it’s noticeable and you enjoy it climbing which is what it’s designed to do and you would be fairly sad if and when it comes the time that you have to give the bike back because you are choosing it more often than you thought for your regular rides that’s as far as I was aware correct going start with some performance discussion yes uh subsequently since our last chat I’ve done the chop a couple of times and one full flat chop and one ganging chain ganging what do they call it in the states a peline peline pine yeah a pce line and uh so one flat paceline and one Hill chop which still is mostly flat but has about a one minute Hill in it with a little sort of V2 flat section over the top and uh I alluded to this a little bit in the past but look rolling turns at 45k an hour on this bike is a punish and it’s not actually it’s it’s a punish in comparison to a full Arrow bike not not the actual rolling of the turn so once you actually come through and and roll your turn because you’re able to get yourself in a pretty aerodynamic position to do that that um like you’re nice and hunch down and pulling your turn that’s all good where you where you do start to find the the um shortcomings of it is if you’re dropping when you’re dropping back into line so one two 3 four wheels have gone past you and you then go to slot back in you’re starting to come back you’re in the wheels that’s sort of the moment where you really want to start having a few pedals off you want to kind of just relax before you come back into the line again to to go up again and that’s where I found that I did struggle had to put out more power than I want would have wanted to to maintain kind of speed that I wanted to push back into the line and a lot of the time at that point it was you know you’re coming out of the of your aerodynamic position or something you’re trying to rest up a bit and so that pure feeling wise was definitely a challenge in that aspect now uh in this peline that we do you have a bit of a heal in it and this I don’t know why because weight should really not matter in this circumstance I wouldn’t have thought in such a short we’re talking a kilo short little Sprint essentially for the first time ever in my writing I was able to react to the the attacks over the top of the climb and whether that was just because I was a little bit fresher I don’t know coming coming up after that I don’t know but that was a a noticeable takeaway in fact the first time that Edwin jumped y I normally just go oh well wait for me to roll my fat eventually at some point but I just was like [ __ ] it I’m going to snap over and I did was able to to get over to him and and we pushed away for a lap or two so that was a clear performance advantage and and massive nod to the TCR and I okay I’m going to go into climbing and then I’m going to come back to why I think that’s the case all right I’m letting you yeah okay so climbing wise down um around kangaroo Valley um doing some threshold effort on 15 20 minute climbs and they’re pretty uneven climbs can be up to like 13% in sections Dro down to sort of 5 6% good Watts um time’s not very fast so times were now I’m not the problem here is I’m at times were F like the fastest climb of this year going up those climbs so like fast but not top 10 straa fast problem there is I’m comparing myself to a version of myself eight years ago who was probably good bit lighter and similar enough wattage I get that but I I must admit I did think with the power that I was putting out and the feeling of the bike on the moment that was potentially going a bit faster than I was can you explain any of [Laughter] that yes I I no I think I can you that’s your truth Chris so you are entitled to to to to that yep 100% I I I don’t really have an explanation for why it maybe that climbing speed wasn’t what you thought it would be or why you are suddenly able to follow a move over the top of a climb easier or why it’s easy to roll it feels about the same to roll through for a turn but harder when you’re actually back in the wheels rotating through do do we have any another level of Chris speculation as to why you’re feeling that of course we have another level of specul if we if we just let that be what it is people are just going to be like what are you talking about when I first got on this bike I made this comment of getting on it felt like putting on an old pair of tracky pants because it just felt like just knew it I just understood it and I think I know what that is well at least I’ve I’ve my spec is my speculation is that the connection that you seem to have when you get on this bike to the rear wheel and where you put Power out on this bike is insane it’s it’s a really efficient feeling bike when you get on it and um it’s it’s actually why a couple of times I’ve had to double check uh my power numbers and things on this bike because it does feel like you’re pedaling there’s something about you get on this bike it’s like it’s like it’s made my pedaling style more attractive or what’s the word they use um Suess it is it it genuinely feels like you’re just more connected more efficient and um more able to put power out in an efficient manner when you’re on this bike and I I feel like that’s the reason why when Edwin kicks over the top of the hill chop I’m like you know what snap I can go to that because there’s no it’s just I feel like I’m able to as soon as I think about it just and even seated just put that power out that accelerates me enough to get over to that wheel so I I honestly feel and I every time I get back on that bike that’s the first sensation it’s just how how connected I feel to the rear wheel of that bike and it’s always my my criticism or any criticism I have of an arrow bike and yeah the S5 is is a bit like this is it just has that it’s almost like the rear wheels fighting you some of the time because and I I think I said this when I was talking about climbing on it you can get the power out the speed’s coming and your results are still like whoa [ __ ] that was fast but it didn’t feel like that because half the time you felt like you were fighting that rear wheel and I think that could potentially be a drop seats day thing I don’t know maybe that’s the reason they hang on to it or maybe it’s the kadex max 40 will system exactly uh all the all all the system working together I think um okay yeah if if it is measure now the thing is like I don’t know how the hell you’d measure it if you’re feeling it you’re feeling it I don’t think you’re making it up how how much for for okay for Chris Miller sitting down following Edwin doing 500 watts seated for 10 seconds how much more uh speed are you well what speed are you getting to using the TCR versus the S5 cuz obviously it feels faster accelerating and maybe that is cuz the wheel set in particular is quite light especially at The Rim where it’s rotating so it’s going to accelerate in theory it’s faster and that’s probably what you’re feeling the problem I always had with it was because you can the tool magazine can aot test the frame and say it’s xws faster and you can weigh the bike but like how do you put a number on the 10sec acceleration when you’re seated in the saddle which you can clearly feel you know are you is the same that same to follow Edwin for that 10 seconds are you able to do five less Watts or is it 20 less is it 480 instead of 500 or is it the same power but maybe you’re accelerating over 5 Seconds instead of 10 seconds to get to 45 kilm an hour I think it’s that I don’t know the answer yeah what I mean like how the hell would you put a number on that yeah and that’s where I was just it’s just like okay like I get you’re feeling it but it’s a frustrating thing to even talk about because it’s almost unquantifiable it is yep the from an acceleration point of view so I don’t I don’t know honestly I I I totally hear but I’m more happy that I actually feel a difference cuz I I still there’s this I just really wanted to push back on the whole or all bikes are the same when they get to a certain level and I do think there’s a lot of I mean and maybe you’re right maybe the pure actual stopwatch performance things doesn’t dramatically differ between them but I wanted I wanted to kind of nut out some of these different Sensations and feelings because that acceleration that ability to snap over there might might be more of a selling point to to people now the actual chop part the Chain Gang the rolling turns thing um so it’s it feels the same pulling your turn cuz you tucked down arrow because you know you’re pulling a turn maybe because you’re pulling through you’re rolling through for that turn anyway even if you were doing 10 watts more cuz you’re going 50 kmers an hour on backside of Centennial Park maybe because you’re tucked in and you’re pushing hard you probably would find it hard to tell if you were doing 420 or 430 anyway you would only the only explanation I could give was potentially you’re only paying for that after you do the effort in the in the 15 to 30 seconds after when your blood’s acidified your lactate lactates picked up and then you’re trying to slot back in and then your heart rate’s gone up and then you’re suddenly like oh now this feels now I’m feeling slow but actually it was the damage was done from the time you were in the wind so which is the the the result is the TCR doesn’t feel as good rolling turns so it’s the same end point um the question then what I have is you’ve got those really deep Arrow Reserve Wheels on the S5 you’ve got the max 40s on the TCR which aren’t there in between wheel I would be interested to see for example um the CW 65 75s on the TCR or the reserve Wheels on the TCR and see can you potentially bridge that Gap in the flat rolling and still get the acceleration benefit I don’t think you’d hit it with the reserve Wheels though I think they’re too heavy if that acceleration component you’re feeling when you CR that climb following the attack it’s because the wheels are so light I think if you put those reserves on the Deep ones you you’ll lose that you would have to have a deep wheel that still has a relatively light rim and that is stiff and that would be the CWS on paper yep and that’s why we haven’t done it yet I’m kind of annoyed because I’ve had those Wheels sitting at home for like two weeks I I still want to get you to use those that’s where ice cuz that’s where you start to go this whole one bike to do it all thing and you go okay well you got the TCR and you run the max 40s and you’re happy for most of your rides and then you’re going to do the chop can you get like how close does it feel to the S5 on the flats if you had deep wheels on it yep no that’s definitely the next absolutely that’s that’s on the list for sure we we have to do that I still see the which would you which one would you keep question and it’s interesting because before I got to ride the TC will you know this I was like hell stupid climbing bike a waste of time this is yeah so the fact that I’m actually even willing to have this conversation is I’m sorry is actually a win for the for the TCR but and my needs as a as a cyclist if I only had the one bike it would probably at the moment still still be the S5 but I don’t think that’s a a wide enough sort of answer because if people are in the position where they’re asking me from this potential this position of oh um I’m tossing up between a TCR and that wouldn’t be someone anyway normally but if it’s someone who has never ridden an aob bike I would always suggest they get the aob bike because otherwise you’re always going to be and You’ said this in the past you’re always going to be I wonder what it’s like I wonder if it does feel any faster I wonder if it would help me in the local club right like just get it experience it and see what you think but isn’t it the opposite now because don’t you think with the co babies there are more people that haven’t ridden a proper climbing bike and that’s it’s because it’s actually shifted a bit because people might have gotten a sella soloist or they’ve started with you know maybe maybe even an sl8 or like a merid reacto and that’s where I would 100% recommend this bike because I would feel that if you are a CO baby and you did start out with the arrow bike don’t drop into the middle ground of the of the one bike to do it all I think this will give you a totally different appreciation of of writing that is is unique and you will you’ll get a much better experience across what’s what’s available out there on road bikes and for that person I 100% would recommend this style of thing definitely um and as we’ll definitely see a couple more of these new generation of of disc Brak climbing bikes coming out in the next six months I I think there’s there’s definitely still an argument for them so my final question to you then given the current standings is you’re talking about the quiver killer bikes the Do-it all bike in that regard what event could you think of where you would have a really hard time picking between the TCR and the S5 any Fondo okay any Fondo so uh Peaks Amy Grand Fondo any any Fondo I feel like it’s a toss up any road race it’s still the S5 okay interesting see that’s a bit of that’s a big change for you you six months ago you were what’s the point of stop making climbing bikes it’s a complete waste of time what do they even bother making it for uh they should get rid of the TCR just have a Propel um so that’s okay maybe maybe I stand by that I haven’t ridden the Propel maybe the Propel rides just as well as this and is and is FAS mhm all right so just a quick reminder for everyone uh going to be ad hoc for the next 7 to 10 days subscribe or we could just you could lose us I mean we could just disappear at any moment so you have to subscribe forgotten forever um I should mention I will be in Ireland this weekend for a couple of days I won’t bring a bike I have my pedals my shoes and helmets so if anyone has a bike I want me to put me on one I will jump on it for you okay yeah so I’ll be there and this weekend where abouts in Ireland are you going I’ll be in Dublin okay catching up with the the condens mhm and uh yeah so hopefully could sneak out to the the wiow Gap at some point um and then over to Frankfurt on the Tuesday to catch up with the the troops and walk around what is it Hall Nine oh yep n with n yep very good all right so until next week adios we’ll see you then see you then [Music]
24 Comments
Thanks
Back in the steel days, 73degree parallel was the stock go to. 74degree parallel was for sprinters, 74 degree seat and 73degree head was for climbers. Plus a shorter wheelbase gave a better climb performance. Now its all over the place, and you need a bike fitter to get you right. Ah the good old days was easy.
How long before Jesse does Gravel?
You blokes might want to be a little careful.. The defamation law in Australia is brutal.
Getting out my protractor and measuring tube angles is my preferred method
Reach is way overrated on a road bike. Take the tcr, only 36mm from the smallest to largest, spread over 6 sizes! Unlike mountain bikes where reach is usually around 20-25mm per frame size. Effective top tube is much more useful
Totally agree re not make gravel too technical. We don't it end up going down the path of XC mtbing and becoming too technical for most.
Why always aero vs climbing bike.
BMC Teammachine R01 aero/climbing bike with 7.2kg with 32mm tyres and everything on it😏
Light wheels that spin up nicely, stiff responsive frame and loads of grip for railing it down decends.
just the facts man…way too much word salad…ie…GET TO THE POINT
TCR + Cadex 50 Ultras for the chop 🤙
Maybe we’ll bump into you at EuroBike Chris! Hell of a show you both have here – a winner all the way.
I'm from Slovenia. Hello 🙂
Chris, great summary of your gravel experience.
As an Australian living in the California it’s been fascinating to see the rise of gravel in the past 5 years and very much reminds me of evolution of XC Racing/ events and MTB.
I would encourage the view that it doesn’t matter what style of bike anyone rides.. it’s not good or bad it’s just different, but we are all cycling that’s the main point.
My local bike shop is seeing Gravel outselling road 5:1 and events are getting bigger and very well organised. My wife and I recently competed at Finland Gravel – super fun 4 day event and have Steamboat and Mammoth Tuff also on our race list. We also ride our road bikes on the weekends in Bay Area.
Not everyone has access to great road rides living in large urban cities, and the events are super fun and cater to all groups and we all know the right number of bikes is N+1.
Lastly the price point of the average Gravel bike is also more accessible vs. super bike which is probably also a factor in the increased adoption
Is the better acceleration feeling not due to weight? How much heavier is the S5 on deep wheels compared to the TCR?
Congratulations Chris. Well done. Love the content and your conversion to gravel cycling. You now need to tempt you boy to come to the dark side with you
in the mountain and gravel world, its accepted that wider is faster. a wider tyre is able to absorb small high frequency bumps so that forward kinectic enery isnt lost to energy to bounce the bike up vertically. the compliaanccee.
Looking forward to seeing Jesse at Dirty Warrny
A major factor I would think is inability of police to approve rides on public roads with cars in Australia. It is very difficult to meet their risk mitigation requirements. Off road events are not faced with quite the same level of challenge. First encountered this about 15 years ago with Lake Macquarie area command saying that they would not approve any future version of loop the lake that included road segments where cyclists had to mingle with cars. It killed the event. Either you had to have massive rides with closed roads like the gong ride or else you have to be on cycle ways.
I'd like 'front and centre' reported as standard. Go for gold next year, Chris. Have fun in the fastest growing city.
Jesse is just psyching himself out. Jesse would be fine on a gravel course. Just have to practise a bit and get a feel for what the bike can handle . Just go the widest chunkiest grippiest tyre you can find if really rough. And take your time in your "comfort zone speed" on the descents until u build up confidence.
Def double check numbers on geometry geek. It shown wrong numbers for me before
I think that the reach figure is weird because it is based on the distance from the BB vs were the rider is siting. So I'd think the best approach is to look at the effective top tube for the reach, but the stack figure is a bit of a better measurement for how high or low the handlebars would be.
@ChrisMillerCycling – just tried the discount code and used your affiliate link….doesn't work for an additional 5% off. Though you ought to know. Any ideas why it's not working?
Hi Chris,
That's very exciting that the Nero Show had an opportunity to be part of Unchained Season 2. I hope you get more opportunities in upcoming seasons of the Netflix series.
For reference, Netflix requires the master files, for all Netflix Original Series, be delivered in the highest quality possible (Dolby Atmos + Vision) to them by the production companies. In the Netflix content delivery pipeline, they will then down mix the streams if necessary based on the playback capabilities of the receiving device and subscription type (premium vs regular).
If you use Pro Tools or Logic Pro for audio mixing, you can use the built in Dolby Atmos Renderer.