Harrogate and Knaresborough Area Constituency Planning Committee – Tuesday, 25th June, 2024 2.00 pm

e e e e e e e e e this hello and welcome everyone to this meeting of the harate and nbor area constituency planning committee I’m councelor John man and I’m the chair of the committee please can I remind everyone that today’s meeting is being live webcast the officers in attendance today to support this meeting are John Worthington uh executive officer development management uh Kate lvll uh solicitor lawyer planning and environment Harriet Clark on my left uh senior Democratic Services officer uh Dawn drory Democratic Services officer also uh Jerry Walsh uh on my right and Amy McKenzie also on my right uh planning officers from the council also Edward Maxwell from democratic Services I think Edward is around around somewhere he’s responsible for the the it and other aspects um and also Heather Yandel from uh Council highways Department welcome welcome to Heather uh members will be aware that we are in a pre-election period with the general election being held on the 4th of July this year whilst the business of the council continues we do need to be mindful of avoiding giving an individual or a political group a platform by which they can influence public opinion in the leadup to the election please can I ask that all members are mindful of this during today’s proceedings uh it takes me to agenda item one apologies for absence Dawn if we could do we have any apologies please uh we have chair we’ve had uh apologies from councilor scurfield thank you thank you so we have a a committee of uh six I think which is good um which takes us to agenda item two minutes for the meeting held on the 28th of May uh we need to receive these minutes uh is there a moover and a seconder please counselor Chris aldrid and seconder counselor Robert windas uh we will now move to the vote and I think we can do this electronically so if we could press the no we can’t okay that’s fine so we just need to do the manually if you could raise your hands please if you uh wish to second the motion to accept the minutes so I think that’s unanimous thank you so that means that the minutes have been accepted as a true and correct record of the meeting which takes us on to agenda item three which is Declarations of interest does anybody have any interests to declare if I could just go first if I may Chris if I may I think we’ve all received um probably two emails from the applicant I received a very late one this morning I think or perhaps it was possibly last night I think that email has been sent to other members as well please nod if you’ve received that um th sorry this is uh an email about uh the first item on the agenda yeah beg you pardon yeah about the sorry the second item the children’s home I do beg you pardon um so uh Chris you had your hand up to declare uh Declaration of Interest I think yeah just to say uh I I’ve only had one oops I’ve only had one email from the applicant of the second item I haven’t I haven’t received anything today uh but um I do have to declare an interest on the first item in that I am gosh do it on this one okay so uh I am a member of Harry and NRA liberal Democrats um we have a contractual agreement in a hire of an office property owned and managed by the applicant of the first item uh just as I declared it the last time it came to committee it it is non pecuniary so I intend unless told wise to stay in the meeting and vote we will note that thank you any other members have a c go slow um I need to you use this one I need to sorry chair I need to declare the same interest as councelor aldred with regards to the har nebro live Dems same again chairman and also um I am a member of the harriage Civic Society but just a member I’m not a Committee Member or anything like that I’m just on the former but not the latter so lid group thanks need to say also that um I am going to speak on the second item on the agenda because I have an interest as the individual member for U panel and oldlands and I have been uh talking to Residents and had various pieces of casework with regard to the second item on the agenda so I will relinquish the chair on that item and my Deputy chair councelor aldrid will be taking the chair for that second item which will allow me to make a statement from the public stand at the back so we will do that for the second um agenda item thank you so I think if we’ve covered everything um we can now move on to the first substantive um item on the on the agenda which is uh agenda item um four which is the former Council offices uh at cresant Gardens hargate North Yorkshire if I could ask the case officer um Jerry Walsh uh to introduce uh the report please just got slight technical hits just bear with this wheel I think we just drop the mouse hopefully it will work if members and the public could just bear with us as we have a slight technical hit the minute right it seems to be working Jerry are you okay to continue give us a report thank you very much over to you thank you thank you chairman um there’s just a couple of updates uh for this application uh we’ve received one additional representation since the application was considered at the 7th of May planning committee and in summary the additional points raised are the proposal makes no contribution to the town center strategy and master plan the road is is of value to the public and should remain in public ownership and the applicant application does not enhance the conservation area uh the second update is an additional condition is proposed um to remove permitted development rights for the erection of fencing fencing or walls on the soy um this is considered necessary to give the planning Authority control over potential handful impacts on the setting of Queen El Elizabeth Memorial Gardens and the conservation area generally I think most uh members were here at the last meeting uh just by way of update the application was deferred at the meeting on the 7th of May because members didn’t feel that they had sufficient information to make an informed decision and that in view of a potential application to the sector say for stopping up border which if granted would allow for public right of way to be extinguished there was a need to understand the full consequences of granting the Planning Commission uh on the back of that the following further information has been provided in the report uh at appendix B the report to the cabinet of under disposal of uh cant Gardens Highway uh appendix C the minutes of that meeting and appendex D the summary of supplementary information provided by the applicant on the 28th of May 2024 as the chairman said the application of the installation of access control ballards construction of Planters and block Paving to the roadway at uh cresant Gardens so that’s the existing site layer plan the site’s outlined in Red so what would what you’ll be looking at is the other end of the of Cresent Gardens Road some ballards and and Planters to be installed which would uh obviously prevent uh vehicle traffic from moving through that section of road that is the proposed so Leo plan so you can see the uh it’s it’s probably quite difficult to see but you can see the Bon plans other end the det details of those will be subject to conditions so what they would look like will be controlled by conditions there’s also a section of Paving to the main entrance to presentant Gardens of block Paving that would link the main entrance to the Queen Elizabeth Memorial Gardens and that would match the existing paving at the front of uh present [Music] Gardens that’s just at this one r and uh that’s proposed to introduce some uh tactile paving to uh to improve pedestrian Crossing facilities there okay that’s looking from the Swan Road end um the bars and Planters would be roughly where that car is in the foreground that’s looking from the mon p and and the the bage would be roughly where that for post is uh and coming across the unit side of the road that’s just looking at the front CES Garden the paving that would come across from there would match that Paving and would link up with uh Queen Elizabeth Memorial Gardens uh the recommendation is to approve the application in uh Accords with the conditions set out in the report and that additional condition that was uh outlined in the update thank you G thank you very much Jerry um we have members we have two speakers for um this item uh I’d like to invite uh the first who is Rebecca Oliver from the duche residents Association oh of course I think you’re right beg your pardon um following the report I think we now now need to take questions from members to the officer councelor aldred thanks [Music] chair thanks chair um and thank you Jerry for your report i’ I want to say I found that very easy to read and puts everything into perspective and I I think it uh gave us the information we needed from the last report uh including those appendices which which were really useful actually and explains why we need to do this before the stopping up order which I think we were were kind of debating had it gone the wrong way or or the right way Etc lovely that we’re referring to the land is the Queen Elizabeth Memorial Gardens as well which is its proper name which is brilliant uh my question is on the additional uh condition we were putting in you refer to fencing is that to stop them putting any fencing in in that kind of area yes [Music] any any fencing they wanted to put on the site would they would need to come to us for Planning Commission and we could make a judgment then of what impact that’s having other than the predominantly on the character of the area is what we’ve been deciding on thank you I think that’s very sensible as well uh and I’m glad to see also that they’ve taken on board our comments about the cycle stand being removed and put elsewhere in in in that vicinity so thanks for that as well thank you any further questions to the officer committee councelor wers yeah thank you is the land the highway still within the control of North Yorkshire council at this moment in time has it been sold to this developer so it’s still within the thing of North yorshire Council I’ve got here the advertisement for the actual sale of Crescent Gardens there is absolutely no mention whatsoever about stopping up of the road it shows the number of um parking places on the Shelf which was in with the uh sail of the Cresent Gardens and also the 15 spaces at the end of the building there is no mention whatsoever in this sale item about them stopping up the road can you tell me where this came and what agreement was made when that the uh the report that was uh brought to cabinet for the sale of the land that’s how it came about that’s so it’s not been sold yet because the sale the sale is subject to uh getting a stopping up order so the process of getting a stopping up order involves getting a planning application approved and then they can move on with that process so that’s that’s how it came about to to elaborate on that councelor I think that it’s a two-stage process in other words the sale that you discussing there didn’t involve the road but there’s been further negotiations and the appendix B is a result of that further negotiation where uh we’ve been approached I think at the time as Harriet Council U about the potential sale it’s gone through um papers that you see and that has been agreed sub subject to uh planning and the stopping up order right thank you very much for that if we continue I’m looking at Harry at now and Dawn if we continue to get vibrations from the microphones would it be easier if if we just dispense with the microphones and continue without them it’s quite a small chamber I don’t know what people think I mean mine’s working but obviously Robert’s wasn’t working okay any further questions please committee to um Jerry councelor broadbank chair I’m still um I’ve I’ve read the reports that I still can’t understand why a stopping up order is part of needs to be part of the final deal I just can’t they’re talking about uh um there’ll still be access for the cycle and pedestrians so why do they need a standing up or I just don’t understand why why it’s imperative that they have to have that without the rest of it going through well the basis of the purchase is that it will change hands and obviously if it if it was continue as a highway then council is the local Highway Authority so by stopping it up it takes it out of the the responsibility of the local Highway Authority as well and therefore that move to private hands is is part pass of that so ultimately it’s a decision that’s already been taken that the the cell will proceed subject to the stopping up order um and that’s where we’re at okay do you want supplementary Council of broadbank any further questions committee councelor gosam um a difficult one but will it cause issues in terms of access for events on the gardens a stopping a order because it will require a presume permission from the owner to allow access for that type of use and I’m just concerned about the type of road that surrounds and how busy that is and whether loading offloading Etc would be allowed on those surrounding ways if the road um if the presentant Garden Street isn’t therefore allowed access for events I’ll defer to Heather on this one she’s the Highway’s officer so maybe she can explain that yeah um so essentially any application for an event on the highway would come to the highway authority to assess um so the impact of that event would be managed appropriately as to what they’re providing so should the area be stopped up and it those Highway rights relinquish we would obviously deal with any events that came up and what the proposals were for the areas within the highway if they were proposing to use something on what will become the private land subject to a successful stopping up order they would need to get the permissions from the the landowner for that quite clear did you want to come back on that yes just to ask whether there is any usable access if that road weren’t um allowed to be used is there in your mind another access point onto the gardens again we’d have to assess it on what the individual needs were for that event um there there’s always Ways and Means of managing access um sites set up breakdown so it would just have to be assessed on an individual basis um how to manage those events they could they can still gain access from Melo Road and from presant presant Road any further questions members on councelor aldr so sorry I meant to ask this when uh uh earlier Gerald um it your report is quite clear that the planning the stopping up order doesn’t read the planning decision we’re asked to take today isn’t part of the stopping aada so it doesn’t we we shouldn’t really take that into account however obviously it is a big issue if if that road is going to be closed to to for Public Access Etc and I can quite see now from reading the committee reports that the pur of the land is not going to be taking place if there isn’t the stopping theorder and planning permission is required for for that the the access so I can see why we are where we are today the question is if in the future because I don’t think actually the current applicant they actually want people to go on that land uh you know they their whole business Principle as I understand it they’re opening a restaurant there’s going to be offices there just talk about using the the old Council chamber there as some kind of art gallery and the aing with the Mercer gallery and putting objects in there so they they the applicant the current applicant actually wants people to use that land what we don’t want is Vehicles going up to and through all the time which I can perfectly understand but they’re not denying me as a pedestrian a cyclist a horse rider any access I don’t ride a horse by the way uh any access to that land so I I’m quite comfortable with the current owners my position would would be different if they sold it on to somebody else who suddenly was going to use that land Council so what’s your question please yeah okay I’m coming to it John if they if any subsequent owner of a land doesn’t want to use it for something that requires Public Access IE I don’t know residential use perhaps and they wanted to block that access off to pedestrian Cy hor Rises presumably they would then have to come back to planning because a few BS and plant isn’t going to deny access so they would have to come back to planning yes that’s great thank you any further questions committee take that as a no all right thank thank you so we can now move on to the uh next part of the agenda we’ve got uh two speakers for this item uh the first is an objector I’d like to invite Rebecca Oliver um from the duche residents Association to speak now um you’ve got uh a maximum of three minutes over to you when you whenever you’re ready if the technology works for me my name is Rebecca Oliver I’m chair of the dut Association and I’m here today just uh representing some of our members who have either objected to this who are unable to be here today or who have expressed concerns to me about it so their objections are as follows present Gardens is a useful road which takes traffic pressure off present road if you are traveling from the duchy estate into the Town Center it is also used as a drop off point for the convention center and the Royal Hall and for parking for the doctor’s surgery on Kings Road the loss of the car parking spaces particularly if you’ve got disability or mobility issues is something that the council should consider for access to the doctor’s surgery refill um the statement from Impala regarding pedestrian cycle access is vague we would ask that there is explicit reference to pedestrian access for the general public as well as visitors to the building as part of a condition of any planning permission at the last planning meeting the council lawyer said that it would be difficult to prevent Imp paror in the future restricting access further once they have ownership so this decision may have longer term unforeseen consequences particularly if the building is sold on and the ownership changes the sale of a publicly owned road to a private developer seems highly unusual and we would ask counselors what preced that sets for the council in general it would help in parlor calls if they were clearer with the general public and local residents about why the road ownership is so crucial why a long lease wouldn’t have sufficed and also what sort of time scale they’re working on in terms of progressing with the project as there hasn’t been an update on their website since 2022 we agree with the Civic society that the treatment of the Landscaping in the drawings is not sufficiently high standard for a building at the heart of the Town Center in conclusion while members of the residents Association recognize the need for this important building to be developed and protected we object to this application on grounds of loss of immunity and inappropriate design thank you thank you very much I would now like to invite um the applicant to speak to the committee if I could uh ask HH Robert Shaw to step forward please you’ve got three minutes sir over to you thank you thank you chair good afternoon members at the last meeting the application was deferred to allow members to receive further information and clarification on matters of the land sale and stopping up procedure we duly provided a note on this matter which hopefully members have been able to review and found helpful hopefully your officers have also been able to advise on these matters from a council perspective in brief summary this application proposes that the site be developed and repurposed so as to provide enhanced public realm private parking and outdoor space in front of the Cresent Gardens building if permission is granted the applicant will seek the stopping up of the highway which will remove any public access rights over the land the development will not be able to proceed unless and until a stopping up order is made the stopping up application will be made to the Secretary of State and be subject to its own process and considerations in due course the decision made today does not predetermine the outcome of that process the installation of bards will physically restrict vehicle access but not pedestrian or cycle access the Cresent Gardens development incorporates a number of public facing uses such as restaurant bars and office space access to and from the building will therefore need to be maintained for pedestrians and cyclist by permission of the land owner the site immediately adjoins the Queen Elizabeth Memorial Gardens which will be unaffected by The Proposal members of the public will still therefore be able to pass from Swan Road to Mello Road in this area and there is no objection to the proposal from highways officers on accessibility grounds the development offers a number of benefits to the town it will improve the frontage to the cresant gardens building improving visual amenity in the locality it will create a softer interface between the development and the gardens reinstate flower beds in the area following removal from the gardens in recent years and make a positive contribution to the conservation area it will also enhance the attractiveness of the Cresent Garden’s development to occupiers and customers and thereby make a positive contribution to the town center vitality and economy we agree with the planning condition to remove permitted development rights for the erection of any fence gate or means of enclosure and to facilitate the relocation of the existing cycle stands to a nearby location of council owned land for public use overall the proposed Works will enhance the Cresent Gardens development and its relationship with the Town Center as well as B benefit the conservation area and historic environment we sincerely hope that members endorse the officer’s recommendation for approval and request that permission is granted thank you we don’t have any further speakers on this item uh committee so we now move into the debate uh phase on this uh item um does any any member have any comments or debating points I wish to make please councilor wers thank you chair I’m very une excuse me I’m very uneasy about this application Al together the stopping up of the road doing away with a lot of parking spaces which brings Revenue into North YY Council to stop it up just so they can say that they’ve got lovely building with pedestrian access and by the way I didn’t I didn’t pick up on the uh the last speaker that the cycle stands yeah they’re going to dig move them from there and put them back on somewhere on Council property in other words they don’t even want Cycles down there present cresant Gardens the roadway there is as I say used for parking it is often and many times used for people going to the Royal Hall on an evening for concerts where are they going to go where are the disabled Bays going to go we’re going to lose a lot of parking spaces and the that road is used for people coming along long swung Road to get down onto the things without having to plow through all the rest of the traffic I think it’s totally and utterly wrong that they are wanted to close that road completely and I’m surprised that North Yorkshire had a even considering it I think I’ve said enough when you can imagine where my vote will go in a few minutes but I think it’s been rather seed it all the way along thank you chair thank you councelor wers any further comments committee while you’re having to think I would just like to make a brief comment myself we uh we’re not here this afternoon to discuss the stopping up of the road per se we’re here to consider planning application for um the Planters and the Landscaping changes to the road at either side um for me and probably for others it’s a slightly confusing argument because it’s it’s a catch 22 situation uh to get the stopping up order um which is a condition of the sale I think uh the secretary of state has to give that permission for the road to be stopped up but before he or she does that uh planning permission has to be given so it’s a circular Catch 22 situation which is difficult to break into as a circle if you like and it’s a bit difficult to understand but certainly my understanding and and uh officer colleague can correct me if I’m wrong is that we’re here this afternoon to um discuss the planning application for uh the placing of the Planters on either end um of the of the road and other Landscaping changes so having said that i’ just like to bring in the officers if they wanted to either correct what I’ve said or add to it John or Jerry please I think that’s a fair summary of the situation chairman um and we’re in debate uh shortly I’ll be looking for a motion um committee but any further debate or comment before we move to a motion Council broad it’s U it’s comment really I’m I’m unhappy about the the way this is all developed um I I don’t think I don’t think this I don’t think stopping up order is necessary should be necessary but uh I I mean obviously if it’s part of the condition of sale that puts us all in a difficult situation because the sale has already gone through as far as I’m aware um and I I just I’m just very unhappy about being placed in this situation all I I note that um well certainly under the current ownership um there will still be access for people to walk through and say cycle through um but uh it’s it’s well it’s just it puts us all in a very difficult position and and uh obviously we’ve got to decide something today on the planning application I’ve No Object have no objection to a few Planters being put down bits of Paving put down um but I just think generally speaking I’m very unhappy with it i’ just like to add to my rather inadequate description of the planning application a few seconds ago just to read if you look uh committee at the bottom of page one um it says this application seeks full planning permission for the installation of access control ballards that’s the phraseology uh construction of Planters and block Paving to the roadway to the front of the the former Council offices um so that’s the they the um uh aspects which we’re seeking to either give planning application to planning permission to or not so that’s that’s the proper description of um why we why the application is before us this afternoon this afternoon the the stopping up order is is phase two if you like of the plan to eventually redevelop the Cent Gardens offices so uh planning permission has to be given first and then the applicant I presume the owner in parl States has to apply to the department for transport for the stopping up order so that that’s the sequence and then the um the developer um starts developing you know the the new offices the restaurant and the bar Etc which in my view will be a huge asset to the town so that that’s the way where I’m coming from so that’s why we’re here that’s why it’s and it is confusing I appreciate but any further comments please committee councel alred and then I’ll go to councelor wus and then um I think Philip wanted to say something as well so councelor alra please you’re first dare I risk this oh take stay away from it okay um yeah I think it is confusing for people but as I said previously I think now we’ve got this second report which actually includes the HBC cabinet minutes and their discussion back in July 2022 and I think Robert really if we talking about this being sedy it comes to that and we both on that Council you were a member of the administration group your cabinet approved this back in 2022 and I didn’t notice any members raising the the the issue back there Council brank’s telling me he did but I’m talking about the administration group it was passed and it was passed with flowing terms the building is sold so there’s no uh and the the we pass ping permission for use of the future use of the building which includes all all the items that Mr Robert Shaw told us about the bars the offices the um the restaurant and I understand there are talks already ongoing with the the mercery art gallery who have limited space to display the vast collection of the harri good collection part of it could could be and should in my opinion be displayed in the old Council chamber within that building which they’re keeping so because of all those things the the applicants this applicant and sorry this owner certainly wants to encourage Joe public to go into that building and they’re put in some nice Paving from the Queen Elizabeth Memorial Gardens to cresant Gardens to to encourage that as well uh so I I don’t have any problems with uh the public being able to use the building and use that space they can’t drive down there that’s all all all we’re talking about and I can see that if we’re encouraging people to walk over from the gardens into the building the a public Highway in the way is actually probably causing a problem so I can see where the the applicant is coming from I I think it would actually help with events as well Council goow because I think actually um negotiations could take place between the land owner and whoever’s putting on the event and it would actually be easier to park on their land it might be a financial deal I don’t know but the highways officers has already informed us there’s plenty of space around the bottom there for the any events to come on and I think they already do use that space for things like the Christmas activities that that have already taken place there so that doesn’t worry me I’m not I’m really really pleased with this new fencing condition which we didn’t have before for because I I I think that really does and the Mr Robin sh did did say uh they’re in complete agreement with this so if they want to put any fenc in along that length of the building there the highway they’re going to have to come back to our colleagues here in planning and justify why they want it in in a temporary or permanent uh measure I don’t accept the car parking argument there’s plenty of space in how get town Center for people to park their cars if I was going to the doctors on Kings Road I wasn’t I wouldn’t park there particularly if I had a blue badge there’s plenty of nearer spaces where you could park your your vehicle if you’re immobile and wanting to get to that doctors’s so I think that’s a bit of a a a red herring I I accept we’ll use a bit of parking people who are going to the Royal Hall do use use that there’s plenty of other additional spaces I think parking in Harriet Town Center we we there’s only a couple of times a year when all the spaces are in use and that’s when we have a big event at the convention center and cyclist Robert we actually asked them to move those things at at the last meeting we they were actually in the the curto and and we my colleague here actually I think asked say say can you put them elsewhere at their expense which we’re going to do so I don’t think we can call that SD or anything like that because we’re just asking we’re doing what we we ask them to do so my only big worry all along with this has been um if in bner States for any reason chose to uh sell that building on in in the future and can anybody else put restrict access and we’re talking about pedestrian cyclist Etc because the stopping the Border will have gone through yes they can but to do it physically the question I asked the officer earlier they will have to come back to the planning department because those bards and those Planters are not going to prevent cyclists horse riders pedestrians walking into that space alone in the future so if any future buyer and I can only think of residential use there was a plan we all know about that that it was going to be a super duper multimillionaire space and I think that particularly applicant wanted to prevent access because he wanted to keep it exclusive so if him or somebody else buys it in the future and he’s that way minded we have now have a condition with there with offenses and they will have to come back to the planning department to actually exclude pedestrians cyclists so I I’m I’m a bit uncomfortable with losing public space but because this applicant wants the public to go into that building and it is a crucial building a splendid building as we said in in harat’s history and they’re encouraging public usage there I’m comfortable with this application and unlike Council wless I will be voting for it thank you um any further debate before we um before I ask for a motion members councilor goson I am still a little bit concerned about the access um because of the stepped access around the public toilets and through the park and the the concern of the public not being able to move through that site in the future or easily um and that Still Remains a huge concern for me I can see that events could be possible I’m worried that that might be impacted because of the nature of the road surrounding um the site but the um not having step-free access um I feel would be detrimental to that public space I’m just looking around I’d just like to ask people are having a breach to think I just like to make a couple of comments myself if I may um for me this is a really good commercial scheme in the center of the town to provide really good standard um office space I don’t know if any any of you have ever looked for an office in hargate it’s very very difficult there’s hardly any office premises in harate for rent or B to buy if you’re so minded um and that space which is available is just horrendously expensive so I think if we want hargate to thrive in the future we do need a better supply of office space now this is office space for me that’s in the center of town it will look great uh it will enhance the uh street scene in that particular part of town and it will provide tens of thousands of uh square meters of office space now in addition to that if you’re looking for a a good restaurant and a good bar they will also be providing there so first and foremost for me as a resident of harate these revamped redeveloped premises are commercial premises which uh are obviously just asking to be used so the owners in parlor want nothing more than loads and loads of people to to flock to their offices to attend their restaurant and to drink in their bars so the last thing they want is to deter people so they’re not going to do that they want to attract the crowds attract the punters and attract people people wanting a good meal so the last thing on their mind is to exclude people okay they want to exclude cars I appreciate that but having said that there’s really good parking in hargate although we have bad congestion we do have in harate loads and loads of parking space particularly in multi-story car Parks all over town the Victoria car park etc etc so although we are the development is taking away I think it was 35 or perhaps it’s 30 parking spaces if you walk into any of our off street parking multistory spaces there’s loads of space there hundreds and hundreds of spaces which are available so I don’t think that’s a that that’s a um a downside that’s the I’m talking about the withdrawal of 35 spaces we have plenty of parking space in town and lastly I would just say um in the obviously in the future uses do change buildings change and develop so if any point in the future in paa want to sell up for whatever reason and somebody else comes forward and wants to convert it to residential development then of course what they’ve got to do is apply to this committee for planning permission so we’ve got control so I would say to the committee we’ve got control of the situation through this committee and we can make sure that whatever supersedes um in parlor development is of good quality and um fits in with the town so personally although I regret the complications around the sale of um the land Etc I think it was the right thing for harate B Council to do a key part a key head of of terms of the sale was the uh stopping up of this particular um Road simply because not because the uh Impala or the developer wants to be awkward but they want it to be a super facade a super sort of for court if you like like at the center of their their for court the front of their building so I think they I think they will use it to this is the road once it’s been stopped up they will use it to enhance the street scene and okay cars won’t be able to get through but I think that’s not a bad thing to be frank pedestrians cyclists Etc will be able to use it so I don’t think there are many although it’s complicated and perhaps a bit annoying and it’s a circular argument which is difficult to get my head round um I I think I do understand it and I do support Impala’s efforts to improve the Town Center in this way but having sort of said that before we move to a motion does anybody else have any comments they would like to to add please councelor goslo it’s more of a question chair are we able to request or ask that any subsequent planning applications come before committee I mean certainly any application to change use of the building would return here so if that’s you concern then yes that would come back so having listened to the arguments and and thank you for your comments committee could I ask for a recommendation it has been the customer practice of this Committee in the past that uh our recommendation supports the officers report as first and foremost as a initial recommendation or motion and if that falls we can we can take subsequent um motion so could I ask for a motion please first that that might support the uh the application councilor ALR yeah I’m happy to support the officer recommendation right thank you do we have a second please committee councelor councelor broadbank reluctantly very I hear what you’re saying thank you um so committee we’ve got a motion um that’s proposed by councilor aldred seconded by councilor broadbank we’re now in in uh in debate on this motion any thoughts comments please on the motion please committee good on the um on the stopping up order I know it’s not part of this application but um there would be 28 days what form would that take would it be a sort of public inquiry held in harut or um if I could ask um officer colleagues perhaps to or Heather from highways um so once the details of the application is agreed with Secretary of State for transport um essentially they will prepare a draft order um and a public notice will be produced um which cont details of the proposals um it’s then publicized in at least one local newspaper and in the London Gazette which starts the 28 day period from there um and that’s the time in which Lo interested parties can Lodge objections regarding the loss of public right of way sorry to in the when you say in the right way does that mean there will be something in harate to discuss before a decision is made or is it just something where people right in goes to London and then somebody somewhere in London makes a decision and that’s it so it does also State um the requirement is that copies of the order must be made available at local public office for inspection and can also be obtained from the national transport casework team yeah that doesn’t answer the question where where if anybody objects and wants to object where will they be it is just something in writing then to the minister and it’s not going to be a a meeting here where various comments and people could come in and say right I want this it’s not nothing like that it’s just a question of something being put in the paper the London Gazette heaven heaven knows why the London Gazette but anyway uh something needs to be put in the Lo one of the local papers people need to pick up on that and then get the comments in and then await for the decision yeah ultimately that individuals can make that representation to the casework team in Department yeah yeah yeah could write in but yeah it it wasn’t a verbal thing it’s just in writing yes thank you for that very helpful response uh any further debate committee please um councelor wus yes chair um we’ve talked about stopping up order we’ve talked about the planning consent that is before us today I appreciate what everybody said about the stopping out order that will go to the Secretary of State what you’re asking us to do today is to drive the thin Edge the wedge to start it off because if we Grant this today then it’s almost certain that the next thing they’re going to go for is the stopping up order so those of you on this committee was concerned about the stopping up this is the time to either uh approve it or vote against thank you thank you councelor uh any further comment committee if not I’m just looking at members councelor Al just very quickly on councilor brank’s point I I know you’re not an Avid Reader of a London Gazette but I I think that’s where all the planning things are have to be published legally and I’m sure one of our renowned local media organizations because they seem to pick up on any planning issue we’ll actually put this on uh a platform so that it can be seen by people who are are concerned and that will be the time for them to object Etc I’m sure people will know when it goes to uh the goes through the process I don’t think it’ll be a state secret just a comment I mean I think things go to the London Gazette I mean correct me if I’m wrong it’s it’s just the traditional um sort of newspaper or organ if you like that’s been used for centuries to announce things relating to the legal profession and to give notice to the world that certain legal things highways things Crown things are going to happen in the future so it’s it’s just a matter of tradition I think that’s why we Ed sorry I should have mentioned as well they do actually display a notice on either end of um the extent of the stop proposed stopping up order so there will be a physical notice on site for people passing to know and it’ll have the details as well as to where people can raise objections should they wish or pass comment all right any further comment committee before we move to the vote on this application any further any actually because it’s so technical any further technical questions which officers can help answer and perhaps allay concerns fears Etc any no can we move to the vult please please now I think it’s a manual vote isn’t it yeah so if you support this motion um which which is yeah the motion is to um that this particular application um is granted subject to the conditions listed below and I think also the additional condition mentioned by um Jerry about the fencing which I think is an excellent conditioner so I think that’s the motion so if you support the motion which has been proposed by Council aldrid and second by Council Broadband I would ask you to broadband bank I would ask you to uh raise your hands now please thank you so that’s one two three four that’s five any members against please so that’s one I think we’ve all voted so I don’t think there’s any any abstentions so that’s uh by five votes to one that means that this application is therefore passed this afternoon by this committee thank you so we’re going to now a very short break I’m going to leave the um uh the chair to allow me to speak from the stand at the back and councelor aldred will very kindly take the chair in my absence e e e e e e e e e e e so welcome back to this meeting of the Harry gon nbra planning committee my name is councelor Chris aldred I represent hi harut and Kingsley and I’m taking the chair for the remainder of the meeting so we’ve reached agenda item five which is Oak Beck 22 AAR Court har good and I’m going to ask Amy McKenzie who is the case officer to introduce her report thank you um yeah as mentioned it is for the change of use of a dwelling house a C3 to a children’s residential placement home C2 um the site itself is located in a mix tenear residential quac in a housing estate within the development limits of Harriet there’s no external alterations proposed to the building um however changes are proposed to the front and side of the property to allow for greater off-road cycling and car packing capabilities the schemes for a maximum of three children aged between 11 and 18 for a maximum of nine staff members the size of the scheme is therefore small in scale um and the proposed use is residential in nature and there’s no detrimental impacts um that’s come to light around Landscaping character of the area and neighbors residential immunity or highway safety the development is within a sustainable area within the development limits of Harriet U itself um it’s as some um verbal updates uh I’m aware that members of planning committee will have received um three emails one from the applicant and two from uh members of the community who are objecting to the proposal um I expect that members will have read those in their own time and aware of what’s within them um as for myself this morning I was made aware of one additional public comment that’s come through that raised um comments around residential immunity and privacy needs um the email itself raised uh concerns about fencing between the properties and the need for obscure glazing to a landing window that overlooks a bedroom window in the neighboring property um both conditions of a new fence and obscure glazing don’t feel is necessary from an officer’s point of view um the officer recommendation on this proposal is that it should be supported subject to conditions thank you sorry I forgot about the slides uh so the slides yeah this just explains clearly what I talked about how it’s in a mixed tenure area um how it’s in a CAC um within the development limits of Harriet um the next slide shows a bit of a closeup of the actual application site itself uh and it shows neighboring properties the proposed layout of the car parking where it’s going be one within the existing garage two to the front and to the side between 24 ashgar court and it’s the application building itself the proposed cycling storage area this image is a frontal um elevation of the property no uh proposed changes are to the front of the building uh and obviously the image also shows the where the off-road parking would be and the cycling to the side thank you uh and this shows a view as you ENT to the cordac where it’s got um off-road parking uh for the residents uh to the left of my screen um be the left of yours as well if you’re looking at it on the wall um and the privately owned but publicly used for the residents of the estate um Green Space to the north of that that image thank you the uh just to conclude yeah the the officer recommendation is that it should be supported um subject to conditions thank you thank you Amy so we now open up to questions to to Amy on on her report any questions councelor Brown Bank um just a few please Amy um one um you say that this you we could condition this to just the children’s residential use only you can’t if it’s C3 obviously go to other things are you saying that we can condition it to just to be that and if it does change if somebody wants to change what happens it’s condition nine of the report that sets out um that yes it should be uh C2 uh residential Children’s Home only um what would happen is that an application would have to come forward for any of use well back to the council right uh back to council or back to committee which so any application submitted counselor is submitted to the council and then there’ll be a decision made whether it’s determined under delegated powers or by the committee which is the usual route whether a local member could call it in or whether we as officers believe it merits committee time um so it would follow that usual route right sorry I didn’t catch was this was this requested to be referred or was it an officer decision to refer it it was uh called in yeah um another one ofstead uh apparently it couldn’t go ahead unless it U ofstead is they’ve got upstead approval why is it that way around why isn’t why if they want to do it why don’t they get offstein for the planning application that they want it seems to be um a bizarre way around of doing things to me I suppose it’s a bit similar to to the previous um um case called here it’s it’s a case that you can’t have one decision without the other and it’s a bit of a circular motion so but but the blocking up of the road it’s the same sort of idea you need the appli in place is my understanding before you I’ve said can consider an application to uh for it to become uh public use of C2 use another one on the bedroom sizes uh if if it has to go if it goes to ofstead and then there might be conditions about bedroom sizes which this might not meet then what we’re given it permission before it gets the offed approval it’s uh well known or well versed elements of planning that we don’t overrule any other legislation so giving planning permission doesn’t overrule the ofstead uh consideration so if they were to consider that it didn’t mean their regulations and it w’t be able to uh commence use because it wouldn’t have got that full Suite of approvals and the final one um for me anyway um the the type of the the area um I’ve obviously had a look at the site notied there was no site visit on this one um but I have had a look at the site and it is a fairway out of the Town Center how many other examples have we got of similar sort of application s in similar sort of areas because normally as far as I’m aware they are normally in areas which are have various facilities and things particularly for young people um close by as far as I’m aware there’s none in the H area that are privately owned children homes like this it will be the first I’m aware of one that’s in Selby area that’s privately owned and Scar I believe but not not in the Harriet area itself ultimately Council though you have to determine its application on its own merits not based on what’s happened with other applications planning Phillip um any other questions to Amy on report Council golo well it’s not really a question but I well just want to be assured that ofstead will look at the suitability of the house and that’s nothing we need to look at um because there wasn’t enough in information to make that DEC we couldn’t see how many bathrooms Etc which was a concern I originally had whether there be some for staff carers and then some for the residents the children um but if you’re assuring us that ofstead we’ll look at all the suitability um Etc before signing it off then I am assured about that that yes that’s the their role in this process any other questions for Amy before we move to our other speakers no so in that case could I invite Richard banister to speak now for three minutes Richard uh I think you’ve been shown the appropriate place is that working you hear me we can good afternoon thank you for the opportunity to speak on behalf of many concerned residents at first glance who could disagree with the idea of a new children’s home in a quiet cisac however close inspection raises many concerns over the speculative nature of the application the unsuitability of the property its location and impacts of the development the applicant has no credentials in the sector experience of working with children any staff and is not ofstead registered there is no record of Janella Care at company’s house or anywhere else Social Services should be a key consult yet there is no input from them nor any children’s care provider the speculative nature of the application is evident from how information provided has been altered to begin with nine employees were suggested and by the end only three these numbers do not include managers Health and Social care workers teachers police offices for absconders which the police themselves mention underestimating traffic movements means that part parking is underprovided and dimensions of the parking provision fail Council 2015 standards besides parking policy ti3 of the local plan is also not satisfied due to the location being away from Key public transport routes leading to an increase in Journeys by car Beyond those associated with the family home schools doctors and shops are well beyond one kilometer the maximum distance sought by policy standards there are no playgrounds or bus stops within an acceptable distance children will rely upon staff to be taken anywhere just as staff will rely upon cars to get to the property contrary to policy ti1 the property itself does not satisfy government standards for size of rooms and necessary facilities such as toilets yet the applicant claims it needs no internal restructuring there are insufficient rooms for staff and V visitors only one of the bedrooms meets area standards and none meet celing height standards are Council happy to have a 16-year-old resident in a room less than 3x 2 m the garden space fails to meet guidelines the property therefore fails to deliver satisfactory Amity for occupants in accordance with policy HP4 it also removes one family home for which there is a demonstrated need in local plan policy the government blog on registration dated August 2023 States your location assessment must show the steps you have taken to make sure the home is needed locally also we do not necessarily neily need more children’s homes we need the right homes we do not understand why Council would wish to support a new children’s home here when there is no demonstrable need the location is unsatisfactory and importantly the property would not offer a quality home for children who are deserving my research shows existing care homes in older buildings are being closed down as they cannot be brought up to Modern standards if North Yorkshire Council needs more care homes surely they would look to identify and deliver new facilities that meet modern standards using offed registered providers in appropriate locations rather than leaving such decisions to speculative applications we kindly ask for the application to be refused thank you thank you very much Mr banister uh and we move on now to the local member who I think we know uh councilor John man the division member for Oakland’s panel three minutes John thank you chair are you happy for me to sit here or want me to move over there right thank you no problem I agree that we need to make adequate provision for child residential placements however homes used for this purpose need to be in the right location thank you and I have receiv received many emails and comments from local residents about this application comment ments include statements such as uh there are um better places than a quiet residential estate away from public transport Shops and and services statements such as there is no local need for a children’s residential home in the harate local plan statements from residents such as the property is too small uh to accommodate three teenagers the property would need extending we we’ve heard already that the rooms are very small uh there’s no floor plan which would have been helpful and I’ve been been round the the houses on either side um of the um property in question and I can testify that the the bedrooms there’s one largest room the second bedroom is smaller and the third and fourth bedrooms are very small indeed I would describe one of the bedrooms as being a box room um I’ve also received comments from residents saying that there will be noise light and traffic disturbance from having a 247 business in a residential culdesac uh and there’s no easy access to public transport or shops and services without a car I think it’s a half an hour walk uh into town it’s a 20 M hour walk to the a61 to get a bus so it’s it’s a very rural um location and I’ve also received comments to the fact that um this is from residents again that the bedrooms don’t meet the national described space standards which have to be observed by councils if you rent out rooms for example the rooms have to be a certain um size and I don’t think the the rooms meet those uh standards um in relation to the office’s report which is very detailed and I thank uh her for that uh I would like to mention just a couple of brief aspects namely highways and the lack and the size of the accommodation in terms of Highways um the number of trips the extra ch generated is six I I I think that’s wrong if you look at paragraph 5.5 in the report committee you will see the list of six extra trips but I think that’s wrong I think it should be 10 if you look at the first bullet in par 5.5 there’s not just one there’ll be five staff there during the day and two at night so those sorry three staff during the day and two at night so those three staff have got to arrive and the two staff have got to arrive at night so two staff not one arrive at 7: a.m. two staff not one leave at 7:30 um a.m. uh the care manager arrives that’s fine the care manager leaves that’s fine but the next bullet says that one night shift staff member arrives 8:45 that’s incorrect that two people should councilor man you’re coming up to your three minutes now so can and lastly the last bullet is that one day shift member uh leaves at 10 well that’s incorrect so it to sum summarize chair there’ll be a lot more more 60% extra chips generated and I will also say that the accommodation the room size are too small therefore I would suggest to the committee that this application should be rejected thank you thank you chair thank you councelor man and I understand you do technically have to leave us and obviously won’t have a a vote on the the issue but thank you for your contribution um I need to invite jolian okay is that right to come before us and uh he’s the applicant and you have again three minutes Julian good afternoon everyone my name is jolian mck the grandson of Miss Jun McKay the owner of 22 ashgar Court I grew up in a family where one of my siblings suffered from mental health issues something which is increasingly common these days luckily my family could afford to pay for the care and support needed which regrettably many other families cannot and therefore themselves at the mercy of ever increasing weight lists my grandmother June pioneered a way to teach blind children to play musical instruments and my father Barry McKay was an active m member of the variety Club of the Northeast promoting concerts to raise money and awareness to support less fortunate children this has instilled in me a belief that it’s every adult’s responsibility to protect and improve the lives of vulnerable children I understand the local residents concerns which have been shaped by at times shameful Care events of the past issues have been raised such as a high number of children who in decades come by would have been Liv living on mass within a single institution or the possibility of increased noise and general nuisance which could have resulted in high levels and danger to the local community I assure you these Fe fears are unfounded the children’s well-being is my number one concern it has been proven that child institutions do not work and scientific research has shown that small family style homes of no more than three children are better for the children’s physical and mental well-being at any given time there will be at least two highly trained professional carers acting as involved parents making sure that the children are not only cared for but educated in becoming valuable members of the community during the time of my planning application my grandmother received a full asking price rental offer from a family with four children two dogs which we believe would cause more traffic and disruption to the local community than our child placement home furthermore it has come to my attention that residents believe that parking may not be adequate as as well as a lack of health services in the area and if the application to turn the home into a C2 is approved that it may be used for other purposes to allay these fears we have engaged proactively with the planning department and discussed parking requirements with highways who are now happy that we have suitable on-site Provisions for parking as for Health Services harate has many hospitals including a psychiatric hospital for those that say the home may be used for other purposes we have discussed conditions of planning that no more than three children are allowed to be in Residence at any time and that the home should be restricted to use as a child residential home thank you for your time and consideration I hope with your approval that we can help as many vulnerable children as possible within harate thank you Mr McCay so members we now move into debate on the um on the proposal before we go to a recommendation so I don’t know if anybody wants to speak on the proposal councilor lazyy thank you so um I’m I don’t think I’m confused I’m conflicted in terms of the um I entirely understand how ofstead will need to approve um the service as well as the accommodation in which the service is provided because its inspection will based on a service I’m not quite clear but it’s not the right question for here as to know whether ofstead will inspect when the service is up and running or whether they need to give it permission to run um which would be more the case for um our social services department to determine whether they would Place children there so there’s a bit of sort of but I suppose my question is more around the accommodation itself and whether there are in planning considerations concerns about that I don’t see in the in the officer’s report um the size of rooms and the likes for the proposed use I’m I’m not absolutely clear whether that has been fully considered in terms of a change from C3 to C2 so my question is specifically around that although you can see that there are other other concerns and um yeah issues and I take your earlier point that is a bit of a chicken and egg thing but specifically around the the planning considerations the size of rooms when something becomes a C2 has that been fully considered it seems that from some of the comments they might not have so that’s a a question Council La can Amy come back on that um yeah the the applications for a change of use of the building so that’s why there’s no flaw plans um the discussion about room sizes generally comes into play when it’s an application for a dwelling um a new dwelling not even a change of use of a building to to flats for example uh commercial use to Flats you wouldn’t you wouldn’t look up room sizes necessarily um as a you you just you just don’t have to or you you don’t do it basically it’s part of a change of use um so it’s not really something that we can we can look at off S may but again that’s separate May what what seems to be before us is um a a proposed use that under planning conditions May well be perfectly legitimate but it is at the applicant’s risk that then subsequently it is deemed not suitable for for the use that it is suggested that it be put to and I am conscious and I’m I I can see how the family wants to um respond to a need Etc but it’s a sort of it’s a happenstance circumstance set of circumstances and where you starting from scratch would it be there um so I’m I’m not at the moment I’m still a bit undecided in in terms of whether this is just on the narrow planning application something that should be permitted um but my advice to the applicant might be have they really considered what the next hurdles might be um in in terms of actually getting it registered and it being a suitable accommodation for the service that’s being proposed um and that but that would involve things outside the remit of this planning committee because it would be about our social services department for example um or other placement agencies um outside of North Yorkshire do you want do you want to come in there Mr mton yeah I mean as Amy says it’s change of use I think the key consideration that we’ve looked at that you now need to look at is does that use have a adverse impact or not upon the residential immunity of neighboring residents and the kind of line there is is both the use the movements that we’ve heard discussed going to have a greater impact than the use of that property as as a dwelling house which is its current use and secondly is that increased use going to be a level that is demonstrably harmful to neighboring residents our view is it wouldn’t be but that’s now before you so to help that’s where we would direct your your discussion yeah I think that is very useful Mr wimington thank you uh further questions oh nor sorry we don’t do questions we’re in debate now so any any other counselor want to enter the debate Council just just a question question I’ve just thought of um what Peter said the um I not the north yorshire Council adult health and Adult Services no comments received yet when you got did the report have we actually received any now we’ve received no return comments so far no comments no have we pressed them for a comment or have we just said oh oh fair enough they’ve been chased but no they’re not here it makes me uncomfortable yes um in terms of whether the application is premature not that it’s right or wrong but whether it’s premature I mean it depends on the grounds on which you’re looking for comments from them if they’re going to talk about the things that relate to registration which we’ve discussed are not planning matters I understand you know hopefully you understand that that’s that’s not before you however yes I understand your caution that if they were to bring up something in relation to the matters that I outlined earlier then um that’s not here yet any further uh comments or indeed the offic is are very happy to take questions by the sound of it so we can fire some more of him unfortunately I can’t uh have any questions to the applicant at this stage which would been useful but our rules do not allow that so any any chair discuss but chair’s discussion um nobody’s asked to for a question of the applicant yet or indeed the objectives would anybody like it see as I’m sitting here no I’m I’m being told it’s debate any any further items of debate yeah Council I are are there any other is there any other information that could help us apart from the fact that um health and adult social services haven’t commented um that Merit a deferral um pending pending further information I recognize from a planning officer’s perspective you’ve given us your view in terms of the relative impact of three children um with staff not being materially different from a from a family um and I can see those I think it might be marginal um because there will always be a different you know two families will have different impacts um as has been pointed out um but I suppose your your dealing with a material impact um but I suppose my question in terms of the debate um is is whether there is additional information apart from although that might be sufficient um A View From health and Adult Services that should suggest that we defer but that wouldn’t necessarily mean extra work for the case officer apart from chasing those views obviously we don’t think so or else it would have brought the item before you cancer problem well could ask a question to the applicant it’s it’s about the um staff it’s about the Staffing Arrangements um not quite sure about how many I know yes one one finishes one starts I’m not quite sure how how it pans out for the day but I’ve seen nine that’s total stuff isn’t it how does it pan out carwise and traffic wise um on the on the on the uh on the Staffing sorry I should have asked you Mr M are you open for questions but you you look like you are um yes I’m very open for questions um I just would like to say I previously had asked Democratic Services if I was able to have my Care Professionals here as I have two members on my team who overall have over 80 years experience within the care services um when it comes to parking on the site um when you have homes like this you will have a sleeping staff member so when it comes to the night shift and it says two staff members are on duty one staff member will be sleeping and one staff member will be awake that staff member who will be sleeping will join the day shift on the next day and that other staff member who comes in not including the um care manager um will then stay the night over in case of emergencies with the next night shift member who comes in I hope that answers your question yeah I found that confusing actually in the information so but thing I can’t take questions Mr bister and I can’t unless there’s a question Mr M I can’t unless you want to expand on what you just said because it wasn’t a question um what I was just going to say was about how the offed regulation works if you wanted that um we haven’t mentioned yeah um I’m been pointed out by my learned friend here uh if we gave you a lot more time we do have to allow me obje as much more time so you’ve been asked a question you’ve answered it I think we’ll leave it there unless any committee members is desperate to know how ofstead the W way off I think I’m I’m fully aware of how ofstead works and if we if we need to find out a little more then that would be possible okay I mean I just want to add my own comments and I um I was a little confused about the sleeping in arrangements and how the movements and that that’s answered that so I’m glad you asked that question Council broadbank um yeah I mean four kids and a two dogs May it’s a valid point I I drove around that area today before the meeting and uh there’s a lot of houses there with three cars on on the drive so you know I I think it it as the officer said it’s it’s going to be more than it was with the previous occupant the joselyn’s grandmother but the in the terms of things that house could be sold and you could have a house with you could have a lot of cars on the drive you could have a a lot more teenagers and three maybe well not a lot more but a few more so I don’t think the actual movements around and and the what’s going to be happening in the house uh it and that’s a planning thing does it affect the uh other residents more so in residential use that hasn’t been proved to me but that it would do so we are looking purely in plan planning terms at is it um suable and we have as has been stated there is a condition on this but it can’t be used for anything other than um uh CH children’s residential use that’s um condition nine I think so you can’t they won’t be able to be setting up anything else other than that uh without coming back to the council so um I am minded on planning terms it is chicken and egg I appreciate that and we had that with the other one but it looks like this is the way things have have got to be done I mean on Purely on planning terms I’m minded to vote for this uh should we had a have a recommendation it will you know ofstead will be the barrier as I think Council Lacy has alluded to and there’ll be all sorts of questions they they will be asking I should think I think the the council haven’t come back because they’re purely been asked to come on the planning terms and the the adult and social services and and they’re happy with that they may not be happy with the things that offed are looking at but that’s out of our remake today I think we just got to remind ourselves we’re looking at the planning issues and as I say for me personally I know we’re we’re all differently minded I’m happy that they’ve been proved to be okay councel of broadbank it’s not just the is that I think I think we need to know from health and adult health and Adult Services uh about the uh demand and and need for something like this in this area because that’s something that that you know that’s what they’re there to um advise on and I’m surprised I’m disappointed they haven’t come back on the issue generally uh and I think that would um help us come to a final conclusion so I would be you suggested deferral didn’t you well I wondered whether there was grounds on on on that basis but um Chris has already pointed out I think health and adult Serv Services would be reluctant to comment when we’re considering a planning issue uh I think it’s a behen to the potential service provider which is basically what it is to satisfy themselves that there’s a market rather than for us to judge on whether planning is given on the basis that there’s a market or not because these sort of placements um could be purchased by North Yorkshire or another Authority um so thinking about whether there is a need in this particular residential um environment isn’t isn’t necessarily something that uh health and Adult Services would it’s sort of not for us to judge certainly not in this context my my there are a number of hurdles that that the proposer would need to jump um it would need to ofstead we’ve mentioned um but it would also have to then attract business and if they’ve done their sums and if there’s no objection from planning then that service would be provided if they haven’t then there’s a business risk and that’s entirely down to the proposer and not for us to prejudge thank you do we have any more comments before I ask for a recommendation no so does any member wish to move a recommendation councelor Lacy first I do propose that we follow the officer recommendations and approve it but I hope that our comment to the proposer um will um yeah encourage them to look hard and we’ll also um give some message to the other residents that were not unmindful of the considerations and the need to to deliver a safe and secure service um so I hope that message comes through but I would propose that we support the office’s recommendation and Council windis would okay so we now go to the vote with our arms please no buttons all those in favor any abstentions than you cancel broadbank I think that is passed D yeah so thank you for that uh 41 yeah well four in favor and one exstension thank you um and I am I’m thinking under item six there are no other it so I can now when’s the next meeting do we know 30th of July so thank you all for your attendance and declare the meeting closed e