FLYING SCOTSMAN news, Jacobite steam trains to have CDL? & Open Access with Lumo trains! | Ep 37

Flying Scotsman, the world’s most famous steam locomotive, is to have a new custodian. But what is a custodian, who are they, and what will it mean in practice?

Jacobite steam train operator West Coast Railway Company is fitting central door locking after all BUT…only to Mark 2s it seems…

Lumo trains and the divisive issue of Open Access. Richard interviews MD Martijn Gilbert and things get a bit lively!

And some good news… the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway is due to fully reopen!

In this episode:

00:00 Intro
04:10 Flying Scotsman gets a new custodian
14:10 Jacobite steam train operator fitting CDL to Mark 2s
18:50 Lumo trains interview
28:18 Open Access discussion
49:36 The Quiz!
52:29 Ecclesbourne Valley Railway to fully reopen

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Credits:
Presenters – Nigel Harris (@railnigel on X) & Richard Bowker CBE (@SRichardBowker). General Manager: Stef Foster (@stefatrail)

and coming up on today’s green signals your Railway podcast Flying Scotsman the world’s most famous steam locomotive is to have a new custodian but what is a custodian who are they what do they do and what will it mean in practice the good old jackaby steam train operator West Coast Railway company is fitting central door locking after all but only to Mark twos it seems very peculiar lumo trains and the divisive issue of Open Access Richard interviews managing director Martin Gilbert and things get a bit Lively good stuff and some good news the Eckles born Valley Railway is due to fully [Music] reopen welcome to Green signals from me Nigel Harris here in Lincolnshire and as per usual from me Richard Baler um here in sunny Wilshire jolly good few changes Richard I’m loving the new studio bit of railwayana going on there in the background he’s that a tidied up genuine flame cut cabside off of 40 it is yeah well Mrs B I think was getting a bit cheesed off with me using up um camping out in the dining room which is actually was a fair point so we’ve got I’ve tided up this little room we’ve got it’s a bit white so I thought well I’ll put some sort of Railway stuff so yep um we’ve got uh if you’re listening on um audio by the way you’ll just have to use your imagination with this uh but I’ve got a British Railways uh Carriage uh transfer that was the round with a red line carriage work Y which was given to all the members of the Strategic rail Authority in 2005 uh I’ve got a rather lovely picture of an Edinburgh tram which a certain n Harris gave me uh on my appointment at the Strategic rail Authority so I won’t tell you how many years ago that was uh and yes that is a genuine flame cut from the finest member of the finest class of locomotive ever built that’s 4035 AA there you go I like those liner names tooked away in the middle lucyan they were great yeah they were they were really good oky doie so that’s really good so that’s going to be permanent is it or will the rail Railway Ana display change over over time because I’m sure you’ve got lots of stuff you could put there I do have quite yeah actually that’s a great idea I think over time I might as you know ring the changes good point but apart from the Edinburgh tram picture of course you know but uh that ought to be a fixture so before we go any further we begin with our usual shout out um to the kind Souls who’s given us super thanks via YouTube and bought us a coffee or two they go down really well especially in our own mugs this week not for the first time we need to thank step Pritchard we’re incredibly humbled that some of you have left us super thanks more than ones now it always gives us a real buzz when we get them so thank you I wonder if it’ll work in person Richard if they ever see us in a pub oh oh well that would that would be extremely uh welcome so yeah I think we might have to go to a railway Pub somewhere but no we might have toy see see what happens okay we’ve also got a little update actually on last week’s show Nigel um if you remember we weren’t 100% clear on how to pronounce the name of Avanti’s um Avanti West Coast’s uh Hitachi the new Hitachi trains so we’re very grateful the head of news Rob Singh has been in touch and uh and confirmed that the correct pronunciation is evero evero that’s good and just in passing about pronunciation I noticed the um the tarton pronunciation police um flamed me out for getting Le mouth leav mouth wrong and one of two remarks about if there’s online resources why don’t you use them well we did we listened to three and they all said leav mouths so that’s what we went with so touchy touchy okay moving on well I’m I’m the first to admit I could get something wrong but when we have actually taken the trouble to look but there you go let’s move on let us move on before we get to the big topic of our show Open Access and our interview with lumo and Hull trains MD Martin Gilbert we want to talk a bit about a topic that even people not interested in Railways at all have all heard of usually ask anyone which is the most famous steam locomotive in the world and the chances are the winner by a country mile would be Ln A3 Pacific number 4472 depending on which area favorite could be 60103 Flying Scotsman the locomotive celebrated its centinary in 20123 and its ability to draw the crowds shows no sign of slowing down it is an amazing crowd puller its history has not been without occasional controversy mind you it was nearly lost to the nation um as part of its ill- fated trip to the United States in the late 1960s When Alan pegler owned it and it was rescued by S William McAlpine and brought back I think in 1973 um it had a hugely expensive rebuild not that many years ago that wasn’t that well-managed it has to be said that ran into millions of pounds and there are constant fears that the behavior of quite a few people trying to get lineside photographs and ignoring pretty much every safety regulation in the book could see the locomotive have to become a static exhibit there have been some very very close shaves so nowadays of course by the National Railway Museum at York who Grant custodianship to a third party who then looks after and operates the locomotive on behalf of the museum and us as taxpayers it has to be said it’s a public asset until recently that has been very well-known steam locomotive engineer Ian Riley up there in bar in Lancashire who’s second and on as an engineer as an operator but the nrm recently carried out a fresh competitive tender after Ian’s contract expired to appoint a new custodian and this time a different company has been appointed Northern steam engineering limited I have to say I’d never heard of them so we asked the nrm about these changes and although they were really kind in answering our questions really very promptly they also said said it’s too early to answer most of our questions which Str me is a bit odd but there you go but here’s what they were able to tell us and there are five points so shall we just cycle through them Richard yeah I I agree because there’s some different stuff here isn’t there all right the con point one the contract with Northern steam will will be signed in due course the contract award notice containing details of the award will be published via the contracts finder portal which is a government site I think once the contract has been signed so you’ve got lots of experience in this sort of area Richard what do you reckon well it was odd this when we chatted about this the other day wasn’t it because the contract uh finder portal as you say you can go onto a a government website it’s actually very good you type in the search term you know Flying Scotsman whatever and it threw nothing up I thought that’s really weird um there was nothing there there was stuff relating to Flying Scotsman from last year so I thought well it’s not that it’s rejecting the search term the status contracts just not there and it is a bit odd that um they’ve announced something without that being signed I’m not surprised it’s not on the portal because that’s just an uploading matter but they say the contract’s not been signed which yeah okay bit a bit a bit strange but I’m I’m sure because they don’t use the term heads of agreement or anything it’s just not signed no that’s a good point they don’t they don’t talk about that but you know I’m sure it’s in a finally agreed form but they say yeah point two and if you’ll bear with me I’m going to do points two and three together and you can discuss them together so here’s point two we have no news to share on who the operator will be on the main line at the moment or where the locomotive will be based it will take time to establish the relationship and develop the calendar that’s point two and point three this is the nrm we were impressed by Northern steam’s skills and commitment to working across the rail sector to bring flying scotsmen to the largest or possible all bids had their strengths but northern steam operations were ultimately The Chosen provider pick the bones out of that well I’m actually great that you did put those two together because it’s it’s odd isn’t it so they’ve said we’ve um with no news on who the operator is going to be so uh Northern steam is going to be the custodian we’ll look after the engine from I guess from a technical engineering point of view but as to who’s going to be operator we don’t know and where it’s going to run on the main line so that the public can see it we don’t know yet and then they say we were impressed by Northern steam skills and commitments to working across the rail sector to bring Flying Scotsman to the largest audience possible I don’t understand how those two things um line up if you don’t know who the operator is and you don’t know where it’s going to be based how can you be impressed by someone’s commitment to make it bring it to the largest audience possible didn’t quite make sense those two things okay point four we cannot confirm who the other biders were I take it that applies even though this is public information and a public property and a public procurement we’re not entitled to know who the other biders were it’s a really good question that um often shortlisted biders lists are made public um they’ve I honestly don’t know the answer to this because some of the rules have changed over the past few years as to whether or not you’re now entitled to keep them confidential or whether I don’t know I I I’m sure they followed the process correctly but yeah it would have been nice to know but I suppose there’s a bit of me is not entirely surprised are you I mean it it would it would have been good but yes we just would like to know who it was wasn’t it um and I was pleased to see point five well done the nrm for making a point of stressing they wanted to thank Riley and son for the commitment and quality of service over the past 10 years with Flying Scotsman um Ian Riley is a lively character who isn’t afraid to let people have the truth I’m reminded of that famous scene in A Few Good Men where Jack Nicholson yells across the courtroom at Tom Cruz you can’t handle the truth well that’s a bit Ian is that um but he’s a First Rate engineer and he’s a very experienced operator and I think Ian is second and on in that kind of thing so it’s entirely right they should they should thank him um and I do wish Northern steam well Flying Scotsman is a well-known bringer of trouble to your doorstep um and it will doubtless continue to be so so do wish him well there is one aspect to the the announcement which made my jaw drop and that’s the nrm’s implied intention or willingness to consider or the it’s actually in the agreement with the operator to provide for converting it back to a single exhaust a single chimney now I don’t really want to get into all the um technicalities of it but if you listen to the Peter town and tribute that were recorded which is still on the website on YouTube Peter explains the work he did in the late 50s and early 60s fitting Double K chap exhausts to the a3s transform the performance they were able to fill in on deltic slots when the deltics weren’t available they used less coal less water they ran more freely they were wonderful and I actually talked to Peter about this because there were one or two historical afficionados who oh it should be back to single chimney and of course that’s what Alan pegler did when he bought it he had donc cast to put it back to single chimney but Peter was scathing him he said why would you want to hamper the performance and damage it downgrade it so much when you’re out on the main line when you need it to be running to the best and that still applies even more now the idea of letting an engine out with a single exhaust or detuning it to that degree I can’t understand why anybody would want to do that it’s an interesting point isn’t it I mean is this the difference between preservation and conservation and restoration you know I mean I the people who are into all this stuff say yeah they’re all different things but I mean I would have thought it you know in the when when was when was that done in the 50s when Peter did that I think it was either very late 50s or early 60s why that he improved it so you can serve or you preserve what you’ve got today why do you just go back to something else it makes I I’m I’m I’m with you completely it doesn’t make any sense and on today’s Railway when the last thing you want is any kind of threat to Performance um it just seems it seems Madness and you just touched on the important point for me the the endless arguments about whether flying Scotchman should be in apple green or l& Livery or whatever or BR blue in the form it’s in now with a little German smoke deflectors and the double Cal chap exhaust the only correct Livery for it is BR Brunswick green and you and I talked about this off screen the other de about listing buildings a building is listed as it is at the time it’s listed even if it’s got a little extension on the end and that you have to conserve it in that form so if you apply the conservation argument it needs to stay exactly as it is interesting I think I think that that final sentence is just guaranteed about a thousand YouTube comments so excellent I I did a big feature when I was editing steam Railway about this very subject and I came up with one of the headlines I’ve been I’ve been proudest of it was Stir thoroughly before application um and it did generate lots and lots and lots of response so rush to your keyboards and let us know um and speaking of controversy and the gift that keeps on giving let us move on to the jackaby steam train um with further developments there last week we mentioned that o had said they’d advise West Coast Railways of the outcome of their recent mark one exemption application um and offered West Coast Railways the chance to comment on it before it was made public um which seemed to suggest to us the answer would been no yes because otherwise why would you comment but anyway that’s a bit of an aside Richard you have what we could I suppose laughingly call an update yeah I wouldn’t I wouldn’t get too excited uh um I might have added a bit more fog to an otherwise M but well thank you very much what are you talking about this or just generally right well I was thinking about the quiz will serve it till then well indeed I can’t wait right so we asked o um how long um West Coast Railways had been given to consider um what o told them um and they didn’t answer that uh which is a bit of a shame but because it would have been useful you know have you given them a week two weeks what but they did say this right we’re in discussions well sorry we are in discussions with the West Coast Railways about the findings from our review of the company’s application for an exemption which we kind of knew right but it does rather suggest that if they’re in discussions about it it it’s probably not entirely what West Coast Railways really wanted but anyway that is a bit of speculation but we did then notice a curious comment on the west coast Railways website dated the 5th of June in which West Coast Railway said today we have announced some additional cancellations of trips for the afternoon service the 1250 departure from Fort William the council trips are now from the 6th of May to the 16th of June inclusive and then further down and in bold it says we are planning to start the jackaby afternoon service this month departing 1250 but due to the amount of work necessary to fit the CDL central door locking we cannot guarantee which date the service will start as soon as the date is confirmed we will inform passengers directly and announce it on the news articles at which point we all thought unsurprisingly wow they’re going to fit CDL to the mark1 carriages they’ve capitulated big news Well indeed we did and it would indeed have been massive news if uh correct so uh back on the phone uh or email we asked West Coast Railways to confirm uh that they were doing that and they said no um the CDL we’re fitting is to mark two carriages important to remember the the regulations relate to hinged you know it’s hinged door stock which are obviously marked to is um as well as a mark one so they said we’re um we’re fitting CDL to Mark 2s but we’re still seeking an exemption for Mark On’s now that kind of really did have us all kind of you know like scratching our heads because um Regular listeners will recall that uh West Coast railway’s position which they’ve been very clear about is that they think their approach of putting secondary door bolts basically and using stewards and so on uh which they’ve risk assessed and they’ve had that verified um they say uh is sufficient well if you think it’s sufficient surely it’s sufficient for everything you operate not just one kind of carriage as opposed to another so why say you want you’re going to fit CDL to one but not to the other it it doesn’t really doesn’t feel logical at all to me that but but there you go it’s all a bit confusing it really doesn’t make sense and um there was a piece was it Twitter or YouTube where somebody mentioned this last couple of days seeing a rake of CDL fitted Mark twos heading north for Fort William and with a balancing rake of non CDL fitted coaches heading south to carfi so they’re obviously fitting CDL yeah that was Lesar Gilpin who’s based in carile who um I don’t think anything moves through carile without Leslie seeing it is great and understanding what it is by the same and Absolut understanding what it is which is actually very helpful so that was a very helpful observation um yeah so they’re clearly fitting it uh on something and and and and moving stuff around I guess we won’t really know the answer to any of this until until what the O have said becomes public right and that I guess we must leave it for the time being and move on to yet another controversial subject very defis open access which we know you’re not a huge fan of Richard at the top of the program we said we had our big feature on today show was one of the more divisive issues the question of Open Access is it a good thing bad thing or perhaps a bit of both Richard interviewed one of the strongest advocates for Open Access around on Britain’s Railways Martin Gilbert managing director of first group’s Open Access operations which includes lumo and whole trains it was a comprehensive interview that pulled no punches and got a bit Lively here and there as well I thoroughly enjoyed it because he’s he’s a real live wire isn’t he and an answer for everything and instantly you know um now because the interview is 30 minutes in total as I said got a bit Lively bit long we don’t have time to play the entire interview now we’ve just got the headlines although they are brilliant on their own however we’ve put the full interview or we’re going to put the full interview on both our Spotify Channel as a special and you can listen to it on your podcast provider of choice as well as on our YouTube channel when it appears there as a special video in which all the details are fully ventilated so do listen to it if you can um Richard and Martin talked in in detail about topics such as Martin’s early career and what got him interested in Open Access because he’s in buses for a long time wouldn’t he how Hull trains is bouncing back post pandemic and how lumo is doing since launch the really big problematic issues that open access raises Labor’s policy for Open Access and what Martin thinks of that and their plans for more Open Access services in the future they haven’t done yet if it’s left to Martin it’s all brilliant stuff very interesting but during the interview Richard tackled Martin on his five key more problematic issues that open access raises and here’s how they got on let’s let’s talk about Open Access perhaps more as a as a general set of principles okay rather which is always what I try to do rather than sort of any you know picking on one particular operator and there’s probably a few key points that I think it’s worth bringing out and we’ve got sort of five principles they’re not in any particular order these although the first one is probably perhaps the most emotive or certainly the biggest and that’s the question of abstraction so there’s a view that um when Open Access operator comes onto the network there is abstraction and that can take a number of forms it can either be through the orcat system um in terms of inter available tickets because obviously you have to sign up to the ticketing selling agreement and and accept inter available tickets so that gives you a chunk of money but then also there’s just the reality that people migrate over from um you know the existing operator on onto you and this can be a very big number as we’ve seen from the or’s analysis surely that’s a subsidy By Any Other Name well I think the world’s moved on I would say in terms of how people buy and Retail tickets the o report that you talk about is is is pre- pandemic in quite a few years before that I think it was 2016 that they they had that research commissioned um and certainly even the um you more recent activities uh certainly can see um that that abstraction is is not the big thing um that it used to be in terms of the sort of whole warcats position we we’re long-distance operators the bulk of our customers buy a specific ticket for a specific train the revenue um is lying where it falls um and certainly if you look at what’s happened with with recent changes to El ARS ticketing as well that’s only Amplified that further and in terms of where we travel today with a more where we are today with a more Leisure focused Market it is all about Advanced purchase faires that the all cap revenue is is is is a far F I accept I accept that Martin on on orats and certainly on on longer distance operators it will will be much more around Advanced purchase so the inter available elements um smaller to totally um accept that I’m I’m also really talking about other forms of abstraction I mean let’s let’s take an example that’s not yours right so let’s look at the recent Grand Union application to go to Sterling which was approved the O’s own analysis so this isn’t 2016 this is now said the grow substraction on that would be 24.4 million perom now some of that’s going to be all but most of that simply going to be taking business off of anti-west Coast so I I kind of go back to my previous question really that in any other you can’t really describe that as anything other than subsidy because whereas the revenue risk was taken by the franchisee preco it’s now taken by the Secretary of State well I can’t talk about other operators Open Access applications what I can say is in terms of the two that I look after here in terms of our current operations we are very very clear that we believe that where we sit today you know quoted at the start the numbers about customer number recovery and Now growth that actually we are generating sufficient trips yes there is movement between operators you know people go online because that we have impartial retailing regulations in this in the country which we really support um that people may have intended to travel with company a CF for Company B and switch but actually there’s a whole greater piece around there that what we’re doing in terms of Open Access bringing in some healthy challengeing competition to the market helping to keep fairs Keen for customers I mean you know lumo is offering you know really really really great uh value for money that’s making it competitive against lowcost Airlines um and uh even into City coach travel and making people rethink um about driving and also just opening up New Journey opportunities you know I hear from people that say you know we wanted to go and see this show or this football match but actually you know the cost of the journey was was we felt would be too expensive to justify it they’ve actually come on and seen a headline 26 Fair and go oh you know actually we can justify doing this so and and and and it can be no coincidence when we talk about those numbers you CO’s given us a sort of reset in terms of customer numbers that that East Coast may9 is Bucking the trend um if the whole longdistance Market if you look at last year’s a stats is 13% down yet East Coast May 9 everything is up in terms of that those those than Focus Jor don’t want to put words in your mouth so you can tell me whether this is right or not you your argument is even if um there is an element of luma let’s take Luma as an example of um taking customers that were on Ln and are now going on lumo not withstanding that the whole market for everybody is now bigger so the net effect is elen’s got better and you’ve got better because more people are traveling and that is as a result of having Open Access competition on the on the line pretty much it yeah absolutely because we think that we’re helping fuel an overall growth of the market that is more than compensating for any movement between operators with Choice uh it’s helping keep fairs cleener for customers it’s attracting more customers to rail and that’s why I talk about us as Open Access playing a part of of The Wider uh rail mix um in terms of making rail more attractive to to to more people you know and that that’s being replicated in in in in in places beyond the UK uh there’s some great case studies in Italy and Spain as well uh where the incumbent state owned operators are actually saying globy now yeah we’re welcoming this challenge to us it’s it’s sharpening up what we do and it’s and it’s growing customer numbers for all operators okay Le let’s move on to another point right so this point is around access charges and what we now have is the infrastructure cost charge because the argument was always leveled at Open Access are yes terrific but that’s just Topline they’re not actually paying their way they’re only paying variable track access now clearly the ICC the infrastructure cost charge is designed to address that um but again you you don’t pay it for the first two years I know I know lumo is now paying it right but you don’t pay it for the first two years then it’s 25% then it’s 50% so it’s year five before you’re making a a meaningful contribution to variable track access so again why is that not a subsidy certainly if not in year five certainly in the first four years well Open Access model has been going now for for nearly 25 years um and uh with that I think we can see there’s a whole wider range of benefits that it brings it’s and and and yeah I think it’s also fair to say that that you the costs of the Railway infrastructure do not go up prata per train or per train passenger um so you know it it is right and proper that that that we frame that accordingly the bulk of The Operators that are paying both varal and fixed price uh fix fixed track access charges are of course now in receipt themselves of huge amounts of government subsidy um many of them were always net subsidy toxs rather than premium paying to anyway I get that long distance historically used to be a premium paying uh situation so yeah we we need to think about the wider area of where the money is coming from where we sit today um you know we are the only operator on the East Coast mainl that is not in receipt of any uh public subsidies at all directly um I get your point about track access charges however there is as you now say the infrastructure capacity charge that’s phased in over that 5year period and and that reflects that there’s obviously huge startup costs that go into setting up a brand new train operation trains aren’t cheap um but also that your business case will see a gradual growth um of customer numbers from from you you don’t just fill your trains up from day one that that you hit the tracks um but actually when that’s fully phased in on numo we will be paying more per passenger Journey um than than any other operator on the east coast may9 in terms of track access charges so I think there’s a there’s a balance of you the old traditional Open Access model which was about um a form I would like to call it of leveling up if you like better connecting underserved or or or not served at all areas so this has been of huge benefit to places like H only have one direct trainer days London it now has eight um Grand Central’s done the same on the routes down from sundland and from Bradford lumo’s better connecting Mor from stevenage um but actually reflecting that lumo has for the first time I think really taken Open Access into areas where people may have said well it already has a a sufficient train service such as um edingburgh or Newcastle will actually guess what once that’s gone in there it’s grown customer numbers exponentially it’s added real value um and yet there’s the infrastructure uh the ICC charge um that that comes in reflecting that that that is a market um that that that can bear that in in terms of the economics of it all track access charges is just one Dynamic of the econom I accept that Martin it is one part of it but but when you take each individual part and you can kind of break it down it does add up then to you know a bigger picture I mean it is a challenge talking about track access and premium and subsidi talks because obviously NE Network rails Revenue support Grant has rather change the picture of you know who who pays premium and who doesn’t pay premium so there’s a little bit apples and pairs comparisons if we’re not careful but nonetheless whilst taking a point about setup costs that IC you you still get a leg up I don’t necessarily mean you per se but you still get a leg up in the first few years and not only that if I understand it it it only applies if one of the stations served on Route is I think it’s at least 15 million um passengers going through that stage station each year so there are some Open Access operators who may not even pay it at all now I know you are but that’s again you know you can see why there’s that sort of sense it’s not an entirely Level Playing Field but let let’s just talk about enhancement because you’ve um you mentioned there about uh you know sort of paying for enhancements for the network ICC deals with if you like maintenance renewals but the network needs enhancement right north of Newcastle you’ve got restriction on the power supply but you’re not going to pay anything towards that so who pays for that then well we we we’re paying no more or no less than than any other rail operator in terms of into that sort of things you you don’t uh yeah you do see incremental Improvement schemes funded by toxs and proportionally uh we have own versions of that so we’ve just renewed uh the platform surface and and uh station fencing at Hen that’s a 1.2 million pound investment on the part of whole trains it’s a good example of an Open Access operator investing in infrastructure Grand Central did a very transformational project um in Wakefield uh we’ve got uh we will be announcing our commited schemes at lumo very soon as well so I think it’s unfair to say that open ACC isn’t paying into the the sort of infrastructure renewals piece you know I would like to think that those numbers are certainly proportional uh to any sort of commitment that you’ll see from other passenger talks um or Freight operators in in into uh improving around but oh hang on a minute because that’s ever so slightly that could be taken the wrong way I’m not I wouldn’t dispute at a Tock account level but but LR is owned by the Department of Transport so the Department of Transport is picking up the bill for premiums as well it might be through a different route as opposed to going through a but take take the specific example you would love I know because we we’ve talked about this before you’d love to have a strengthened power supply north of Newcastle to be able to run more trains right well 10 car trains actually longer trains longer trains well we’ll come back to capacity management we come to capacity management a minute longer trains absolutely brilliant um would you be prepared then to pay a fair contribution towards the the infrastructure cost of upgrading that power supply we’ potentially be paying more in trck Access charges if if it was a charging that was based on vehicle lengths as as as some of them traditionally have been um I think that’s a discussion we we we we’d need to be having you know there is an Acceptance in the UK and and Hugh merman you know outgoing real Minister obviously mentioned it in his interview with you that that you know there’s a there’s a fiveyear control period settlement for N I think the number was something like 41 billion pound he quoted which is actually the the sort of UK government commitment to uh the infrastructure as I’ve said earlier that the costs of running the infrastructure don’t go up incrementally in both fixed and variable track access charges based on the number of trains that you run you know there’s an element of genuine fixed costs there um Open Access operators are not uh shy from from contributing to to infrastructure schemes we’re certainly not uh um you know saying that we that we aren’t uh investing in the infrastructure we absolutely do and I I I firmly believe that if if you look at both the early Open Access operators in terms of The Wider economic benefits that they brought to the areas that they they they serve better connectivity um new jobs you that’s a massive thing we’ve got 125 people in h um that that that that have direct employment from us and we’re investing in their skills in development and want to expand and grow that and that is terrific I’m sorry just let’s just um there’s a couple of other quick ones if if we make so capacity you mentioned that briefly a five car unit uh unit taking up what is a valuable commodity which is a slot on the east coast of Mainline that can’t be the most efficient use of capacity surely what what can be done about that well I think we firstly it’s really important that we making sure that that capacity is also fair for the communities that are served so actually um it may well be the case that some of the uh routs that served off of the East Coast main n by some of the Open Access operators such as um you know let’s take Grand Central for example to to sundland or to Branford um really important that those communities are linked as it is for us at whole trains that H is linked if those markets can only support um demand for five uh car train now none of them are on clockface hourly timetable so I think there is a balance to be said to make sure that capacity is proportional um to those communities um those regions that are served um but but actually you know here with with with with the two organizations I represent uh we’re certainly not saying that we just want to sit at at five car pass you we’ve just mentioned lumo you we we we we would have uh I’m sure by now placed an order for new trains uh to to grow what we do here if we weren’t capacity constrained in terms of the electrical supply system um between moru and Edinburgh and and you know look that’s still being looked at and an increasing number of whole trains Journeys are already 10 cars so actually that’s one Carriage more than many other operators on the route so um I would say that open access is actually on a pathway um to Bringing even better utilization so uh final Point um in at the moment performance on the network not good enough right there’s there’s pockets of fabulous work going on never dispute that but overall it’s not good enough and there is a view is certainly one that I promoted that there needs to be a bit more slightly old-fashioned if I can call it that approach directing mind people call it to sorting out some core performance issues how does Open Access operate in that world because there is a danger is there not that everybody turns up waving the track access agreement say well you don’t telling me what I can and can’t do um is’s my contract how do we manage our way through that new reality of needing to get a grip on performance netwide well look my very early background in my career is is is in timetabling and and so I have an absolute appreciation for the importance of the timetable and you know I’d like to dig that how we operate here I just mentioned that we picked up some some really good accolades in terms of lower Toom self delays um and we’ve got a great performing Fleet thanks to our work with Hitachi so we are very focused on making sure we play our part in delivering a reliable Railway um we aren’t an organization that that sits around and waves that that that contract but equally it’s really important that we do protect um the services that we’ve worked hard to build up particularly places like Hull where where you know we we we are the the only operator for many Journeys for for customers um I think there needs to be you know a a holistic view but it does need to be collaborative with people working together I I I I get slightly nervous when we talk about sort of um you know controlling Minds I hope that they can be more guiding than controlling we do have a vibrant mix um of different types of operators Freight is a really important part of that mix and a complicated uh thing that needs to be weaved into to to timetabling and operation planning for me it’s really important that we don’t lose sight of the customer and all of this that’s why we’re ultimately here is for our customers and and a big you know we as an Open Access operator you know no subsidy fully commercially exposed um we live or die by giving a good experience to our customers um and it’s really really important to me that that that in a wider industry timetabling process we make sure that we are absolutely prioritizing uh all of our customers across all the region so absolutely no disagreement with that it has to be customer focused and and um yeah we are we are in strong strong agreement on that look so there you have it some Lively stuff um and don’t forget the full interview will be on Spotify audio wise and will be on YouTube for the full video experience from Monday the 17th so do catch up with that it is really worth listening to so Richard um I think your biggest beef with Open Access having listened to you opine on it quite a bit recently um abstraction seems to be one of the big ones for you do you want to tell us what you think about that yeah I would say I I’d say abstraction and and um basically paying their way really those those are sort of two things so look you I mean you you heard what he said he he is very um he does have an answer for absolutely everything which is which is great really I mean you wouldn’t expect anything else when I asked him about abstraction he focused almost entirely on orats right which is the system that allocates revenue between operators for these inter available tickets and he said it’s not really that big a thing anymore because with long-distance operators the vast majority of tickets are um sort of advanced purchase they’re not inter available they’re specific to the operator so it was almost like so orats really isn’t that big an issue but actually it’s not just about orats it’s being there at all um will cause people to move from operator B A to operator B and that is abstractive now the Open Access operators say yeah well that’s cuz we’re better or cheap or whatever um Martin’s better than that what he says is and I’d be fascinated in your thoughts on this because I I don’t know I’ve got my own views his really entire thesis is that yeah we are abstracting passengers from l& no question but the total Market has grown bigger than the abstraction because with there as an Open Access operator so in other words yes we’ve taken some passengers from l& but they’ve not really notice that because they’ve got they’ve not only got them back they’ve got more because the total Market’s grown and that’s come about through competition discuss well that’s interesting isn’t it I mean knowing your propensity for wanting the forensic detail my immediate question is are the numbers to prove that um because surely there must be some if if he’s right it sounds to me and it’s just feeling that it’s stretching a point well I think the real problem is you can’t ever prove it you can because the market grows to whatever the market grows to and how much of it was due to factor a or factor b or factor C becomes very very difficult to uh disaggregate so I don’t think you can really say I mean it might be because there was competition it might just be because it’s bounced back faster and better anyway we know L are are a good operator so it’s very difficult to disaggregate that and the other problem with it is it’s it’s a gamble isn’t it if you if you approve an Open Access operator what if it doesn’t happen like that um you only know after the point to which you’ve made the commitment so um look I there’s no doubt that on the East Coast Main Line you’ve got some really good operators on there and Luma and H trains are good operators let’s be very clear um but so is Ellen are so quite what variable is causing this I think it’s very difficult to say but he does accept it is abstractive um he just he just points out that he’s made the mar he’s helped make the market bigger so it doesn’t matter okay um when is a subsidy not a subsidy U with regard to things like ICC and you can explain the alphabet soup yeah but this was a classic I think this was margin what I can now see is his classic best yeah is giving fantastic answers none of which were really in answer to the question youd asked yeah absolutely and this one did actually no frustrate me really but it was I thought this is interesting so ICC if you’re not if you if you’re not aware um came about it’s called infrastructure cost charge and it’s an attempt um to ensure that the Open Access operator is paying a fair share of its access to the network so back in the day when Open Access first started they only paid variable track access charges they didn’t pay a contribution towards the fixed cost but the icc’s design has come in now and it’s designed to ensure that the Open Access operator is paying a bit more towards the them being there and I pointed out um it doesn’t kick in for the first two years right then it’s only 25% then it’s 50% Mar is answer to that was yeah well it takes time to build up these Open Access Open Access operators which yeah fine but you’re still getting a leg up it’s still subsidy and he answered it and he said well Open Access has been going 25 years and it’s about a wider range of benefits well that’s got nothing to do with ICC the costs of rail infrastructure do not go up prata per train or per train passenger yeah well interesting but not really about the subsidy point and the bulk of operators are paying fixed and variable track access charges are now in receip of huge amounts of government subsidy how the how the government choose to channel money through train operators or direct interet will rail through a revenue support Grant is kind of you know well that’s up to the government really I don’t feel that we really got to the bottom of that one which is a bit of a shame but but look I I think the he said he said we the only operator not on the East Coast not in receipt of public subsidy at all directly right directly which I thought was very interesting so you know not indirect for me this is all indirect stuff the abstraction is really an indirect thing uh icc’s issues are indirect so yeah they’re not getting a check from the government but but they’re avoiding cost potentially right um and that is indirect so look um there were loads of other points he made Nigel he talked about the fair use of capacity which I again I thought was a bit a slightly odd one because he talked we talked about worksop um and morpeth and these are important places but you’re not telling me that the market the flow the value of the revenue flow from worksop to London is the same as some of the really big ones of course it’s not so fairness has got to be proportional to the market and back in British Rail days they understood you put all the effort and all the money into your big flows because that’s what ultimately generated generated the money exactly so thought was yeah interesting what I thought was interesting was when you asked him about congestion and his answer was along the lines of well no we are not you know we’re not going to turn weing our contract around and and that’s what we’re entitled to and that’s what we’re having but then he said that we’re not going to give up trains for which we fought quite hard which sounded like exactly what he was going to do somehow yeah I mean look at private company he’s got to protect his commercial interests and that’s but you know I I kind of had the same sort of and the enhancement question my ear was pricked up when you asked him if he’d pay a contribution towards upgrading power supplies North of Newcastle in particular because he couldn’t run more trains until that’s done um and I thought you got a fairly Dusty answer to that didn’t you he made the point is Let’s Be balanced that they do contribute to smaller scheme upgrades uh on the stations that they serve and that’s that’s absolutely fine but I do think the point about enhancement is critical because you know um it’s the DFT that pays for those so whether it goes through train operators or direct into Network rail it’s still public money that’s paying for those um upgrades and the cost of access should arguably reflect um a share of the benefit that comes from those upgrades I I thought it was a really interesting thing he said towards the end and I’m sure you picked it up he said open access is a good counter bounce and calibrator to prevent us becoming a one-dimension railway a good healthy thing to have a small bit of competition in the market I thought oh that’s interesting you know you can see how a bit of small you know grit keeps everybody on the toes it’s when it starts to becoming a matter of big scale where I think these questions of access charges and abstraction become very serious they do but look let’s let’s sort of move towards rounding this up in seems as though we were being a bit critical of him there and I’m genuinely not I was hugely impressed with it his enthusiasm passion determination commitment you know tick tick tick tick and I thought it was an outstanding Ambassador for the railway you know passionate very customer focused um obviously seen things in articulating it at the moment from an open access point of view but he can’t do anything else I think the key words in my last comment were at the moment because I watched that interview thinking what are you going to be doing in the future um on the new Railway it strikes me that there’s going to be opportunity a big opportunity probably for somebody like Martin or for Martin um and it’s going to be interesting to see um where he winds up isn’t it if I was chief executive of Great British Railways he’d be well up the top of my um Target list of people yeah it is out outstanding um and uh you know I didn’t I didn’t feel he was a vasive I I did I did think he was you know he did answer a slightly different question at times but you know we’ve all we’ve all done that you know guilty as charge yeah uh you used to do it with me on rail all the time Rich all the time all the time yeah all the time um but he’s passionate he’s committed he’s smart and they do run a great service in his his obession with customer focus is brilliant I I would just love to see that applied to you know 1500 trains a day that’s all which is why I say there’s a job for him on the on the bigger scale probably fairly soon yeah um so it’s going to be really interesting to um to watch your to smile at the end where he was determined to have the last word with you and I was determined to make sure he did he he he didn’t no absolutely you’ll have to listen to the full interview to hear that actually because because in the bit that we’ve just shown um we just picked out those big headlines you were doing your best to wind it up and he kept leaving it was it was quite hilarious actually but he listen I’ll tell you what he gets 10 out of 10 and he definitely wins the prize for getting the most amount of key messages into an interview and a very cool backdrop so well done Martin it was a very cool back it was shall we move on to the quiz I I think that’s a great idea Richard as usual I’m looking forward to the quiz um it was a quite straightforward one this week even I knew the answer at the time you asked it oh blindly was it that straightforward was Che um right okay here we go lobbing this one back over the net I hugely hugely enjoyed the comment from Karen turnus or well done Karen on YouTube who said by the way I know the answer to the quiz I won’t Ender enter being as it’s far too easy even Richard can’t mess this one up yeah can I tell everybody right the only thing that Nigel’s been talking about for about the last four days in preparation for this recording is that comment So yeah thank you so much Karen you know you’ve you youve you’ve made him very happy and Steph and I have had to listen to that about a million times yeah let’s point out Steph spotted it and she thought it was a hoot too you are in so much trouble now for dobbing inin anyway let’s let’s remind she’s used to that let’s remind ourselves what the question was the question was where was the old worse and worse and of course it was dead easy the answer was the Oxford Worcester and wolver Hampton Railway which of course you can still ride on the vast majority of it um from um Oxford to wer uh on the cotell line and then of course from to up to Birmingham via kidster so uh a dead easy one um the winner uh loads and loads and loads of people answered it because it was easy and I’m delighted to say the win winner is um Andrew Pennington who of course um was on the show a few we ago yeah we interviewed him um at Southwest royway so um so Andrew do send us another email on INF for green signals to tell us where you would like your mug scent and we’ll get it on its way to you um this week’s quiz probably a bit harder I don’t know now um but it’s this who described what as an act of malice and philistinism so who who so a person described what as an act of malice and philistinism now if you think you know yes but if you think you know please email as your answer to info@ greens signal.org or put the comment on on YouTube if you don’t want anybody to know then you need to send an email um uh don’t you don’t have to be first right we we change that you do have to let us know by midday on Saturday so you got 48 Hours me and then it goes into the hat and we pick one out at random uh it’s all very proper um and then we will announce the win on next week’s show but you don’t have to be first you but you do have to get us an answer um by midday and Saturday good luck indeed so let’s move on to some good news shall we I was really pleased to see that the ecklor valley Railway in darbishire is due to fully reopen this week it been partially closed for seven months because of a serious landslip at the Duffield end I believe um and what has been called a Triumph of community spirit and Engineering expertise means Services set to resume on Friday June 14th trains have been running from works and terminating at Duffield Holloway road but providing a final testing has all gone Well Services can resume to Duffield station proper The Junction Station with the main line of course with a back to the 40s event this weekend extensive repairs have been needed both from expert track engineers and a passionate team of volunteers to get the line back up and running which is excellent news and we wish them a great first weekend back in operation and many more to follow the Eckles born Valley Railway I I like it a lot it’s it’s not got a very high profile um and deserves more attention a few years ago they didn’t have their own steam locomotives and um as a director of luff standard locomotives group they asked if they could borrow one of our class twos but they didn’t have drivers or firemen or crew so we all trotted along to to the to the railway and we did some route learning in the dmu and I had two fantastic weekends driving on that Railway which is really interesting very friendly people and of course it’s got the branch at the top end up to the old quaries which is enormously steep so it’s um it’s really well worth here’s an unusual thing then I can say I can say this we have both driven on a train down the Eckles Bond Valley ro oh there we go because my father for my 50th birthday um bought me a dmu Driving Experience so I drove that bubble car all right unit um up and down it a few times it is absolutely a lovely Railway it’s very attractive um this piece of this piece of work is is quite serious they’ve had to slew the track that’s been it was quite a thing so well done to them it’s great so that was a good 15 years or so ago then Richard you know sometimes I I you cruising for a bruising I think is the expression that my certainly my kids use but yeah anyway I will get my own back I will get my own back you fre ly do oh and sadly that’s all we’ve got time for this week as usual thanks so much for watching or listening whatever platform whether it’s audio or video on YouTube please don’t forget to give us a thumbs up on YouTube leave a comment and if you haven’t already please subscribe it really does help and most of all join us again next week but for now it’s goodbye from me in Lincolnshire and and it’s goodbye from me thanks ever so much for being with us see you soon [Music]