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Join us as we discuss the world of academy signings with Michael Hamilton the Academy Director at AFC Wimbeldon and uncover the truth behind some horror stories involving player recruitment. Learn why it’s crucial for parents to be informed about the process and how to navigate the tricky landscape of youth football.
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Chapters:
00:00:00 – Horror Stories of the Industry
00:00:01 – Signed Players
00:00:02 – Relation to the First Team
00:00:05 – Introduction and Music
00:00:06 – The Goal of Being Recognized as a Manager
00:00:09 – The Best CF Free Academy
00:00:11 – It’s Not About League Status
00:00:15 – Club Funding
00:00:18 – Metrics of Success in the Academy
00:00:21 – Accounting Perspective
00:00:22 – Financial Fair Play
00:00:25 – Developing Academy Football
00:00:28 – Creating a Sustainable Club
00:00:29 – Understanding the Identification Process
00:00:32 – Player Development
00:00:34 – The Reality of Hard Work
00:00:35 – Player’s Pathway
00:00:38 – Unhappiness at the Academy
00:00:41 – Desire to Leave
00:00:42 – Stifled Club
00:00:44 – Stopping Players from Playing
00:00:46 – Academy Agents and Parents Awareness
00:00:48 – Finding the Right Words
00:00:50 – Understanding Contracts
00:00:52 – Face-to-Face Interaction
00:00:53 – Someone’s Desire to Tell Me Something
00:00:55 – Verifying the authenticity of leave
00:00:57 – Signing for a Cat One Club
00:01:00 – Loss of a Player
00:01:01 – No Compensation
00:01:03 – The Impact of Money in Gaming
00:01:04 – The Importance of Taking Action
00:01:06 – The Importance of Networking
00:01:07 – Horror Stories
00:01:09 – Stories of Signed Players
00:01:11 – Related to the first team
00:01:13 – Authority in Management
00:01:15 – Problems with the Academy Setup
00:01:18 – Being Honest
00:01:19 – It Doesn’t Happen
you do hear some horror stories of players that have been signed because he’s related to the first team [Music] manager our goal is to be recognized as the best cat Free Academy in the country it’s not about League status it’s about finances how much funding a club can pit into the academy metrics of success from an accounting point of view and financial fair play how has that come into Academy football we need to try and create a club that’s sustainable but knowing what goes into to identifying a player developing a player those numbers don’t always reflect the hard work that goes into a player’s pathway if a player genuinely isn’t happy at an academy they want to leave they’re then going to be stifled because that club can effectively stop them playing for another Academy agents and parents know what to say and and and how to get out of certain contracts how do I know that a person is sitting across the table from me who is telling me that they want to leave is genuine then 4 months later you see them signing for a cat one Club they why have we just lost this player with no compensation when they’re worth this money has there been a player that they’ve said you got you got to have take them and any walk life is who you know you know you do hear some horror stories of players that have been signed because he’s related to the first team manager or someone who holds Authority within the academy setup it’s not right but yeah I would be lying if I said it doesn’t happen [Music] welcome back to project footballer the voice of youth football today we’re with Michael Hamilton Michael thank you for joining us thank you for the invite much appreciated Michael can you tell us how long have you been with AFC Wim wooden so I’ve been at in in total for end of this season will be my 16th season so since 2008 um I’ve held numerous roles um and I’ve been very fortunate I’ve been part of the journey and part of an academy before it was an academy so I’ve been part of the transition from a you know large grassroot set up to establishing as an academy and then once becoming an academy trying to establish itself within that world so yeah 15 years in total and what’s your current role at AFC wion so I’m currently Academy manager a role that I’ve held since two 2019 so just past four years now um previous to that I was Academy head of coaching so I looked after the coach development of our coaches and staff and before that I held numerous roles such as under 18’s assistant um lead you facee coach which oversees the development of the under 13s to under 16s and yeah I’ve done almost every every role possible at the club and what type of things do you have to do as Academy manager um that’s a big question um I oversee the different Departments of the academy and oversee the full operations so there are 10 components of the academy um football just being one and on you know on top of that you got relationships with staff with players with agents and I basically manage and bring it all together um the the easiest way I can articulate is I would be like a head teacher at school that’s the that’s the simplest way I can explain to someone who who doesn’t know football so are you quite handson yes um but it it changes a lot my roles and my responsibilities change dayto day week to week um I’m very Hands-On I try and be out on the grass as much as possible but that’s never as much as planned and you know each day each week we’ll throw up a different situation a different priority um so you have to be very flexible but yeah I try and make sure I’m involved in every Department I try and make sure I support the staff um um and yeah like I said cuz I’ve been there for so long I kind of I wouldn’t say I know everything but you know I know the functions and and how things running and and could and should look with Chelsea Neil bath has been instrumental with our growth and our success he’s in the last 12 months moved across to deal with the first team but like when he was Academy director we would look to him dealing I would imagine he would do a lot of strategy a lot of like working with at board level do you think there’s a difference between the role of Academy director because I’m assuming you’re you’re essentially the equivalent of what Neil barfa has been doing but do you think there’s big differences between being Academy director at AFC wimon which is a cat 3 Club compared to Academy director at Chelsea I suppose the the responsibilities would be the same right um but you know the numbers the details the amount of people that you’re talking to and and and managing is obviously a lot bigger so I have to manage up you know I reporting into the club board I have to have relationship with the first team I um propose and and obviously project future potential players for the first team um strategizing you know you can look at what the academy is doing today it’s my job to look after where it’s going to be in 3 to 5 years time and put a plan in place and and and manage that and support everyone in delivering that program so for as an example I write the well I wrote the football in philosophy at the Academy I write the strategy for the Academy we’ve just gone through an audit where I’ve had to you know project what our plans are going to be in the next 3 to 5 years um time and it’s my job to bring it all together and and manage it so very it’ll be different in terms of the numbers and and and and the depth of um you know what what someone like Neil doeser at Chelsea but I suppose the principles would be the same it’s nice that you mentioned that cuz the that’s exactly I was going to ask that what is your philosophy and essentially the goal of the academy our goal is to become is is to be recognized as the best catf free Academy in the country um we we recently rrit it in the last 8 months or so previously it was to be recognized nationally as a development program and as many facets that go into that um but we want to make sure when people spoke about us um you know AFC wi was part of the conversation whether it’s productivity whether it’s um being pioneering in some of our development methods and within our limitations and our constraints we wanted to maximize what we can do and and make sure we got every every ounce of energy every ounce of um outcome into what we put in we feel we achieved that and I can go into that in a look uh a little bit more detail but we feel we’ve achieved that over the last 3 to 5 years and we went back to paper and um yeah we want to be recognized as the best cat fre Academy in the country how how’s that potentially measured is it like players going into the first team or players that you sell on yeah both of them um so productivity players that we sell on to other clubs players that we get recognized at International level players that we sell on you know we don’t want to sell players but it’s part of our world um fa youth cup as an example we just beat um black Rovers last week um which is a category 1 Academy um we’re going up to Sheffield in the new year to play them in the fourth round and those are the you know those are some of the measures um we’ve got quite a pioneering self-leading um athlete program which basically a lot of our programs built around developing the person as well as the player also upskilling the players to take full ownership or as much ownership as possible of their own development and that’s quite pioneering in our field because as you can imagine you get quite um Club Le coach Le but we want to be quite player Le you know if you put the player in the middle of a curriculum put the player in the middle of a program what does he need what do I what does myle need compared to you know Joe blogs as an example um I’m not saying it’s easy but that is one thing that we’re quite um known for in the development world you know we’ve been asked to present at cpds at um fa courses and it’s those little facets you know there’s so many other measures as well um but we you know whether you’re cat one C to when you come up against a Wimbledon side we want them to know what they’re coming up against and then you know like I said we want to be seen as the best cat free in the country Michael oh sorry just to clarify just take it back one step for parents to understand the differences between cat one cat 2 cat three because it’s of been talked about in Academy football what are the differences so yeah in the in the academy world there’s four categories um it’s not about League status first it’s about finances and how much funding and how much um finances a club can put into the academy so as an example you could be a League 2 club and have a cat one Academy um Sunderland were League one a couple seasons ago and they had a cat one Academy at the same time you could be in the Premier League and have a cat 3 Cat 4 Academy so brenford at the moment are Cat 4 um cat one to three you have to run a program from 18s all the way down to under NS um cat one cat 2 you have to obviously top that up with your 23s program and make sure the transition between Academy and first team um there’s a program in place for that cap 4 being you just have to run a professional under 18s program um and and below that you know everyone would have their different ideas of how it should run and what are the minimum spends for I don’t know about cap 4 um cap 3 you’re looking at about 700 Grand a year in total um so a club would put in half of that and the efl fa would fund other half do you know what cat one and Cat 2 have to spend you’re talking about cat one you’re talking about you know a minimum like if like 2 mil something along those lines but you know without being rude there are some clubs that don’t and wouldn’t rely on the funding you know so there are you know within your cat ones you would have your Elite cat ones as well because you know you you could take the funding away but they’ still run an elite development program yeah I got told that some catanies are spending 20 million pound a year yeah and that then comes into a different part of a conversation cuz we wanted to ask you metrics of success so Matthew touched on it but we were talking by phone and we were saying like from an accounting point of view and financial fair play how has that come into Academy football yeah so um so brenford as an example the reason they need an academy or need to start getting Academy in place is because they have aspirations over the next few years to get into Europe you can’t play in Europe without a a recognized Academy um some acmy like you like I just said you know they won’t rely on their funding we as an we as a club massively rely on um our Academy because we we need to try and create a club that’s sustainable that’s self-sustainable you know we’re a fan-owned club which means we haven’t got an external sugar daddy haven’t got someone puts money into the club and can fund it we have to build our own create our own and make our own um and with that there is a lot of money from the club perspective that goes into the academy and the academy program so there is pressure on myself and on the academy as an example to to produce and to pick numbers into the balance sheets um one way of doing that is obviously by selling players um and in the academy world you got the compensation model so for every year that a a player is at the Academy he is worth X so if if if you use Chelsea as example if Chelsea come in and and sign one of our players there is a model already in place that stipulates how much as a minimum they should pay pay pay pay us for him um so it stops the negotiation and yeah I remember when that changed I think he’s worth that you think he’s worth that so there’s a model in place um do you think that’s positive those changes the changes have been positive yes but knowing what goes into to a play identifying a player developing a player sometimes those numbers don’t always reflect the hard work that goes into a player’s pathway um as an example um so yeah From wimbledon’s perspective it it suits us massively when we develop a player he goes all the way through the program he goes into the first team he establishes himself and then you know if at some stage he he he’s identified by else need sold on then it’s it’s great because you know he can go for the value that we value him at um below that we have less control so just to give some education to parents listening that might not be aware of these numbers so it might have been like 10 years ago these changes happened because previously clubs would be probably higher clubs Premier League clubs will be buying players from lower league clubs and it would just be a negotiation the club would be saying that player is worth this you know and it just it was getting so silly but then they they put these categories in where they said right if you’ve got an under nine player that is going to be a player who you’re going to have to spend £3,000 a year for up until Under 12 so it would be 3,000 for under nine 6,000 for under 10 9,000 for under 11 then once it goes to Under 12 doesn’t it jump up a bit then it changes age groups and it also changes categorization so um a cat 3 under nine would be worth less than a cat one under nine that’s because ultimately there’s there’s money there’s investment going into a a player you know um but I got told that cat 1es can’t buy from other cat ones you can really yeah um but obviously cat it becomes a lot more expensive doesn’t it and it becomes a lot more is it just expensive isn’t it that you’re breaking league rules because I understood that if there’s these categories that are in place the Premier League would say why would you be going from a cat one to another cat one if there’s not some sort of like inducements going on um it depends on the context doesn’t it um some environments aren’t for certain players um you know you’d have to be very brave for any Academy to go right we’re going to go and buy another cap one because we see in in 10 years time he’s going to be a professional footballer um I suppose the probability of him of in making it um is a hell of a lot less so I think it changes that I think it’s not impossible for cat one to purchase of a cat one but it’s a lot less lightly because obviously they’re so far away from the end um okay sense then there’s the flip s side to all as well because we know players that um they’re at an academy they leave and then they can’t play for another Academy because of the compensation rule yes but and and I get why those rules are in place because you can’t have catanies just taken from the others so there needs to be something in place but it feels like it needs to be a bit more thought through because if a player genuinely isn’t happy at an academy and they want to leave and they they they’ve there’s a lot of good reasons why they should get out of that environment they’re then going to be stifled because that club can effectively stop them playing for another Academy is that right yeah but the it’s not stop them playing for another Academy it’s if an another Academy wants to sign them it just brings everyone to the table if that makes sense so if um you know in the most respectful way agents and parents know what to say and and and how to get out of certain contracts you know you start throwing certain mental health and other bits around and it becomes very sensitive so how do I know that a person sitting across the table from me who is telling me that they want to leave is genuine that’s not said or not but you know so they might start saying my kids’s getting bullied by this coach their mental health is suffering and then F me in a situation where I have to release how do I know they’re not getting fed these messages or these Reasons from another club examp CU then four months later you see them on social media signing for a cat one club and your bosses is saying why have we just lost this player with no compensation when they’re worth this money exactly so it’s not necessarily right we’re going to release you with compensation and you can’t go anywhere we’re going to stop it it just means if another club comes in it brings us all to the table um you know we’ve had we’ve got players who yeah we we are entitled to conversation if they go elsewhere it just means when another club comes in you know we’ll sit down and we’ll work out the best door that suits everyone is it yeah I was going to say do you generally come to like an amicable situation where cuz um it might be a case of a player leaves a club genuine reasons um there’s another Academy that wants them to play for them however that Academy maybe doesn’t feel like they’re worth the compensation they have to pay would an AFC woman don’t or whoever would they say you know what we’re just forget the compensation best of luck and and if he goes on and and and there’s certain Milestones that he achieves like he gets a scholar gets a pro makes a Deb then you know we can later on down the line um benefit from that yeah it just brings people to the table um I think I think there are very negative you know there’s certain situations that that are very negatively put out there um and yeah a good club with the right people with the right intentions they don’t want to stop people progressing yeah exactly I’ve always felt that and to be fair I feel that the Category 3 clubs get a really hard deal because again to give more information to parents that probably don’t know some of these rules that are in place a category one Club can go in to any Category 2 Category 3 I mean any club and you give 24 hours notice or 48 hours notice yeah yeah yeah well it depends every club’s got different okay so let’s say there’s got to be 48 hours notice to say that Liverpool are going to go in and watch man I don’t know a local Club to Liverpool this cat 3 AC Stanley okay acon Stanley let’s sa that one so they’re going to say right we’re going to come in on the Thursday they send an email to say we’re going to do that and so then they can go in to their ground they’ve got to allow them space to watch the game and then they can just watch their players now what then ends up happening in a lot of Clubs we might get into this and you might say what Wimbledon might do but clubs then know that they’ve got a talent that they’re trying to keep at their club for as long as possible and they start moving them into different age groups it might play them often it’s playing them up but and then there’s very very strict controls around what parent information is shared out and so then there’s this conversation this stuff happening out there that that you know it could get clubs into a lot of legal trouble because the rules and the sanctions in place can affect the first team if you make mistakes with this like we’ve had a lot of legal training ourselves in making sure we don’t mess up because if there’s some skull duggery going on clubs can ask to see the phone records of Scouts have you ever done that with a club before Michael have I ever see no um have wimon ever done it we’ve um we’ve sold players to other clubs and the Premier League have asked just for um clarification that the pro the correct process has been followed you know so you know when did communication start how was communication conducted um and it’s not necessarily to prove people wrong and catch people out it’s just to make sure you know there’s a process in place that people follow and respect so in terms of just going into those numbers again I said those numbers from a cfree cat two perspective so I actually don’t know what cat one to cat one would be then yeah no um it’s it’s I haven’t got off the top of my head obviously I’m more aligned with um our numbers yeah but a cat one came by from a cat one it’s highly unlikely yeah um maybe towards the end of the top end of the pyramid as they get older because obiously the gap between that and the first team and you know the end point is is is a lot closer um but I reckon that there are so many controls in place and Le legal sanctions they’re quite fearful of getting a cat one player to another cat one player because the clubs can put blocks in place and clubs will be like look I don’t want to risk this player they’ve got to be that that special that we’re going to be able to bring them in and do this amicably because there’s such rivalries and there’s competition between the clubs that is like ego thing as well like why have you know people’s jobs get on the line because if you lose a player and later on down the line they end up being a superstar worth millions as a director why under your jurisdiction did that happen yeah so there’s pressures in that yeah um but yeah it goes into under 12s what does it what’s the money then cuz it it gets to about 150 Grand once they get a bit older yeah that’s if if if they go through the whole program you probably you know you you ENT six under 15 that’s 150 you’re up to six figures but you know so as as an example if if we sold Joe blogs for 150 Grand it sounds a lot right but be in mind we’ve put 10 years of development into this player you know whether that be tours tournaments facilities staff um the players that we’ve not signed because he this play has been in the team and playing so you know 150 might look a lot on a bit of paper but when you look at it it’s nothing comp you know there are players picking up a week um you know 150 Grand is a lot to Wimbledon don’t get me wrong yeah um and it is a lot in one lump Sun but when you look at when you spread it over like 10 years it’s like 15 grand a year which you know it’s yeah it’s it’s not a lot like oh sorry no no oh yeah I did some calculations for the four years that I was at QPR there was some players that I brought in like janal who got bought by Tottenham and Harvey Elliot got bought by Fulham Alpha Gilchrist got bought by Chelsea like I think like I might have earned I don’t know maybe over four years something like 40 Grand or something tiny at QPR over a period of time and there’s the players that got sold on in compensation was like close to 200 Grand so I’m saying my return on investment was massive but then that’s the way that I thinkmy should be I think they should be much more open with the return and investment that coaches and Scouts are bringing in and and for players because then we can then get clearer about our success metrics because the cost I said earlier 20 million to run a cat one Academy you’re accounting for maybe a 100 ground staff potentially for these big giant facilities the heating the the office staff like this the chefs the nutritionists the video analysists like these are massive massive organizations so you have to you have to make sure you’re getting a return um and how where on the balance sheet a player hasn’t realized their profit because they haven’t been sold how do Wimbledon recognize the value of players that they have in their stable yes so I I keep a productivity measure which basically um obviously measures when we set a player um measures when a player makes his debut but the easiest way to put it is if um if we’ve got a right back playing for the first team him being an academy player adds value to the club because he’s a homegrown player but in terms of finances he would save the club x amount because it would cost 7 800 pound a week whatever it would be to go and get an external player to play right back for the club so if you minus his wage just to say it’s 250 from the 700 that he will take to get an external player then you’re saving 450 a week multiply that by 52 and then you know you can start putting some tangibles around the measure um that’s something we’ve got in place different clubs do it differently right um so as an example like a Phil F we all know Phil would Phil Phil sold you know you’re talking about the best part of 100 million right but because he has never been sold on man City’s balance sheet he is worth nothing in fact he’s probably a cost because of wages and because of the investment that’s gone into him I suspect just on that I very much suspect that they run the expenses of the Academy of what created Phil foden put those through on the balance sheet for the financial fair play but they do not recognize the transfer value that he has yeah so that is a bit of an imbalance probably something that the FF the fair play people should look into yeah you know maybe there’s something out that I’m unaware of um but yeah so but what is his value you know if man can go well he’s worth 200 mil yeah and then what the market might say no he’s worth or two years ago they 150 but that wouldn’t be good for financial fair play because then they’ve got Capital asset yeah so they wouldn’t want to have that as value they want to be lowering that value as much as possible they’ be trying to say n Phil foden nah he’s not that good he’s a 20 million pound player if it if it got if it had to be like done like that but I think that they’ve got bigger problems so they’re not stepping like that but really like good accounting that’s how it should be yeah like I said um um they probably have got something in place you know they got the world’s best financial team and stuff looking at looking after things so yeah I can’t comment on that but yeah from the academy perspective we are at a cost to the club um for club like Wimbledon it’s a big cost because we’re because of our sizes and our resources um so I have to um validate and justify the cost of having an academy and yeah sometimes that spreads further than just selling players cuz I can imagine what a hard job that is for you where at board level they’re creating their accounts in these ways to run the expenses from the academy make those expenses as high as possible make sure everything’s calculated for and then in board meetings they’re saying the academy is losing US money it’s doing this and then you’re have as Academy director you’re having to come back and say no come on look at these players we got these ones just saving you this much on the wage bill yeah but that’s why you’re trying to take away opinions right football’s full of opinions isn’t it you need tangibles um you need facts if if touch would if relegated this season you know we become a massive part of the conversation um how do I quantify that it’s within the club’s best interest to maintain and have their Academy for the next couple years whilst you got a first team manager probably sitting on the other side going yeah but I could do with that money because I’ll get us back up next you know what I mean so um one of the first things to go is always the academy isn’t it when like the clubs get relegated and they start having financial trouble it’s one of the things that goes you you you lose your license after a while anyway right yeah if once you get you can’t so the world the world word Academy is flown about you can only be an official Academy if you got an academy license um you can only have an academy license if you’re in the football league so you know if you’re in the National Conference or conference South you don’t run a professional Academy um so yeah you lose your license after if you’re relegated after three seasons you lose your license and is AFC wimon self- sustaining yes you’re in profit um is in the academy the academy is yes um but things change you know um so as an example the fans and the club done a great job a couple years ago moving us back to plow Lane which come up as a massive Financial cost to the club you know you’re mov into one of the the richest parts of the country I can probably off the top of my head probably only like the Chelsea and Ken and Har is probably the most other expensive part of the world to try and build a stadium from scratch and somehow the club and and the fans made it happen um but that comes at a cost um and at least be repaid so yeah the academy is doing well um and who are some of the player success stories that have helped that happen so we’ve we’re only 11 years old as an academy so a lot of our players are only making or at the start of their Journey so in the summer we sold Spike Brits to Manchester City he was England’s number one um last season we sold Archie Stevens to Glasgow Rangers how much for are you allow to say um not for as much he’ll be worth I can say that um AR but six figures yeah no yeah um yeah six figures um Leon toomi to wolves Archie Stevens we lost to Glasgow Rangers now because Glasgow Rangers are a Scottish club and they don’t fall within the efl guidelines they don’t fall within the compensation model so um they paid a lot less um very similar to remember when like when Arsenal went signed the Nao or fabrigas or wherever from Spanish or French markets because you don’t sit within that market you know there’s a so what age did he leave this lad um all three of these boys left at 16 at end of the under 16 Season um so you got three England Internationals coming out of one age group um we’ve sold others and you know we’re currently as as you referenced earlier you know we got eight clubs and Scouts down to our games and there’s there’s interest in some of our players but in total we’ve sold seven players to cat one cat 2 clubs in the last 18 months that seems really positive m yeah depends how you look here um you know but if that’s part of your success metric then it has to be because it’s part of my world but there are some players within the within that group who I’m sure you can imagine went for a lot less than what they are going to be worth um so yeah I suppose when I say that that sounds really successful I’m thinking from a parent point of view of wanting to join a good Academy yeah that sounds like Wimbledon is producing players yeah so that’s only within the academy pathway um we did sell to so this is outside of the seven I just mentioned we sold a uba sell in January 2023 so in the January transfer window he was our first ever million pound player um he he he went out to Qatar um and we sold Jack Roni as well Jack Ron’s gone to Huddersfield um what about Matt Cox to brenford Matthew Cox went to brenford last year yeah um he that for money did you get money for that yeah for money but ultimately you’re selling you are selling the person the player deemed the best in their age group in the country you know he was England’s number one goalkeeper at under 17 level time he sat on the bench in the Premier League for the first team so as you can imagine you know no matter how much money we received he’s on he’s unbelievable Matt C I spent some time working with him in Co like his feet are unbelievable and yeah what a keeper talented young man and um you know’s he’s he’s can’t learn that Bristol Rover doing really really well um but yeah the the finances that we receive are nothing compared to what he will be and what other players will be worth is anyone lobbying the football league to try and change this and up the compensation levels yeah it’s recently it changed um in the summer all right yeah so it’s um when they bought e p in um Elite Performance plan I can’t what the third piece stands for but when he tried to um professionalize the Academy system about 11 11 12 years ago the one thing that never really changed was the compensation model um and that’s that was reviewed and obviously up for discussion as you can imagine from cat 3 and Cat 2os over the last couple years and in the summer they finally um modified it and updated updated their model I know something you wanted to ask Matt was like the differences between different cat 3s yeah I guess that’s more your opinion and experience within that um working at then and then your I’d imagine I might be wrong but I imagine a lot of your contact is with other catf freemies cuz the games program is going to largely be based around cat freemies yeah so is there a massive difference between different cat freemies yeah it can change you know so we we are the only South London base catf 3 Academy um the nearest would be Orient what about Sutton so Sutton are new yeah obviously they’ve just come into the program haven’t they in the last like they’ve just completed their first year um so it’s it’s quite hard to compare so as as in our games program you have Gillingham um you have Cambridge you’ve got stevenage and within their region within their location they can only um recruit from x x amount of hours away which then adds limitations we don’t have digs if you someone out like Cambridge or stevenage you probably have to have accommodation and digs because it will strengthen your recruitment process um you know we we operate within like I said London so you know transport links and and and and other considerations around that are very different so that might be an advantage but then our operational cost might be higher because you know we’re trying to find pitures in South London as opposed to uh in the countryside so it’s it’s difficult to compare directly but yeah those are those are clubs that are in our program and and that we come up against is um do you think the your games program specifically is it what it should be like would you like to see it change because my experience of um some Academy games programs is there’s a lot of travel and then quite often is the travel worth it because you’re traveling hours to play some games the games might not be that productive but then it’s just it’s a lot of sacrifice so is that something you would potentially like to change or could be better better organized um I suppose my my question to that would be what the better organiz look like because if I’m a cat one I don’t want to be playing there’s a reason why I’m paying x amount right and it’s not to play cat 3es and nonat one clubs that in my world is not a leite so when you start categorizing cies I don’t know what the answer we have a very varied games program we have our formal games our cap 3 um clubs that we just mentioned we do very well in trying to challenge oursel against our cat one and Cat 2os why should we why should Wimbledon for the amount of money we put in and for our limitations in the most way um play and place himself in the cat One games program as an example they pay x amount and do x amount and so there’s a reason why there has has to be separation um so I suppose yes from a from from my perspective yes it would be nice to have a a different Gams program but when you actually break it all down why why would there be if that makes sense um you know we compete against other cat 3es in that sense it’s all comparable if we went and played more cat ones at example we would just be exposing our own talent to all these cat ones and all of a sudden you go from having a good program to you know 12 18 months later oh where’s all the best players gone oh but you know you’ve been playing all these cat ones week in week out what do you think what’s going to happen so I think you know I don’t think it’s as easy as yes or no um what I can say is yes of course we want to challenge ourselves and we look forward to our games against teams that aren’t in our program do you get many players who go from under eights at AFC wimon all the way through and become first team footballers we haven’t had many because we’re young you know so we we we we’ve only now we’ve got players now under 18s who would have been with us since under eights but that’s because you’ve only been running for 11 12 years what percentage is that in your under 18s um in our under 18s if I use the second year Scholars you’re probably looking at about 60% really 50 50 to 60% came from Foundation phase age groups what what percentage do you think of those will end up being professional footballers paid fulltime um yeah that will drop you know that will drop to of course 10% 15% whatever yeah so if at the moment there’s roughly 50% of the second year Scholars that have gone through the whole program yeah is there a trend um within that Journey where you get the other 50 50% from so is it maybe under 14s 15s you start heavily recruiting and then at under 14 15s you also start releasing is there like a pattern there um absolutely and some of it’s out our control you know so I could have I could be sitting in there with the hottest under eights in the in the London what what is the chance of Wimbledon carrying them all the way all the way through you know other clubs at some stage are going to come and purchase players and we at some stage have to replace players so there’s there are certain things without our measure without our control sorry that we that we can’t control ultimately um but but like with that little location where we are obviously it’s very close to kobam with Chelsea and very close to Mur park with Fulham and I would be very very surprised I mean our bosses would probably go mad at us at Chelsea if they were under eights at AFC wi wooden that we hadn’t seen and we didn’t know about so I said they should be mad not be so much money and resources yeah yeah yeah and without I say that probably majority of the time Chelsea have such a good under sevens under eights program and the club just do a really really great job um in selling the benefits of the club that they they genuinely will generally will get the best talent in London yeah e even against like Arsenal and Tottenham so do you ever get any under eights that you think wow how the hell have we kept this one how has this happened yeah yeah okay I’m trying not to expose myself well when sorry just like on on my so when you’re um bringing players in at the older age groups is that typically from Grassroots or from other acms bit of both um yeah I suppose it’s very varied um but players develop at all different rates you know so in the most way if a players being released from a club there’s a reason why the players being released so just because a player has been released on cat one doesn’t mean he’s going to be good enough for wimon in the most respectful way no um at the same time there might be a player who’s always been overlooked and wasn’t you know the bits weren’t quite coming together and then he’s at a grassroot side and you know all com to play so there isn’t a rule but yes um they would come from varied backgrounds we have had success with players who have been released from other clubs Matthew Cox being one um at the same time we’ve also had players you know we use Leon trom example Leon trom was never signed at an academy we signed him under within 18 months of us signing him from Grassroots he’s an England International we’ve sold him to Premier League club he’s come from Grassroots um he’s been in clubs knew of him he’d been triing with clubs he’ never been signed by another club as an example Leo cast Leo cine yeah Leo cine was with us from under eight and we sold him as an under 15 um to Chelsea um and he’s been on the bench obviously for the for Chelsea in the first team in the do really well with England as well yeah no um yeah highly talented young man um met his with his dad a couple weeks ago but yeah um so he was a player cuz I want to understand these gems like let’s say like Leo is a gem at under eight that has been missed out by all the category one clubs he might not been a gem okay so that’s what I wanted to ask what type of players is there a profile of player that is missed who signs for AFC wimon at under eight who for some reason is missed in the most respectful way yeah it is very difficult like you said to for us to sign a player or know other player under a that other clubs don’t know about so it’s highly likely that highly likely that when a player is with us it’s because he’s not quite what the other clubs are looking for at that time we people are only people are paid to make judgment are based on what they’re seeing no one’s got a crystal ball and knows what they’re going to like in 10 15 20 years time if it did then you know there were so many different stories that that wouldn’t have happened but at that time that might be not what they’re looking for at the same time um clubs can only recruit certain players from certain um travel times so a player that might not been on Chelsea’s radar as an example under 11 might now come into the radar under 13 because the the rules change so there are there’s always different contexts um but yeah players develop at different rates sometimes good you know there are environments that are good for players and aren’t good for others and that all feeds into you know performances and development jaelot is an example that I think of because it was that time at QPR where he was so little and I think that Chelsea and Arsenal and those clubs he was still in their Advanced groups he hadn’t been released by those clubs but like I was into the dad and saying time QPR sign QPR and that sort of thing and I really like believed in his potential and his technique was so good but he probably was not super super effective necessarily so then that might have been why he wasn’t getting the love from those capat one clubs and I’m thinking is that the type of player that might sign for Wimbledon under eight where they have talent but like you’re saying it’s just not quite enough Effectiveness that clubs are ready to fully gamble on them yeah no exactly and um it’s I don’t know who was in Harvey Elliot age group at Chelsea as an example so it’s easy to go Chelsea missed out but we don’t know who they had in good ones Ben Elliot I think and yeah there a load of good ones and that’s not to say I don’t want to talk other clubs but it’s not to say that the club made the wrong decision yeah hindsight’s a a brilliant thing right but they can only make judgment based on what they’re seeing at that time um and you can only the rules State as well you can only a certain amount of players now that’s if if you use Harvey Elliot let’s say he went in at Chelsea in as their 25th player as an example that means he’s gone he’s gone from an environment where he’s potentially in a top 10 top 15 to now he’s not even in their top group and that can have you know how would he have have developed playing under that pressure how would he have felt being in a group that isn’t considered like there’s so many components um it’s not as easy as this is the way in there another way completely agree so with that would you say Harvey it was athleticism at a age for Harvey that was probably one of the factors yeah why but brenford really wanted him reading really wanted him he got better and better later it got into underrates people were starting to see his Effectiveness but we had such a good relationship that the dad felt confident enough to go with QPR but I think he kind of knew also that he might just use it as a bit of a stepping stone and he would have then had a plan to then go somewhere else which he then did after two seasons I was just going to use that to lead into the um your thoughts on the whole um kind of stereotype of it’s just the big athletic players getting into acmis and all of the technical players are often missed um you must hear that a lot I’m guessing you hear that a lot and then just your general thoughts on do you think that that is the case it’s athletic ISM over technical ability at eights NES and T that’s a big question um no I there are some acmis that do go for the athlete and sometimes the smaller ones the better technicians if you’re not on that are overlooked and there are Somey and it might be you know your category three category four it wouldn’t be category four but you know your Category 3 iies who might pick up the ones that aren’t the most physically matured and therefore are the smaller technicians um but you can only make a judgment based on what you’re seeing there and then you know no one goes right in 5 years time he’s going to be like that I’m just going to interrupt the podcast for 30 seconds to tell you about we make footballers we make footballers are the largest football coaching provider to children aged 4 to 12 in the UK operating across 200 facilities we focus on developing the individual working on the technical and physical components of the game and it’s had amazing results with hundreds of our ex players joining professionaly and four of our ex players currently playing in the Premier League our program is built around small-sided play using indoor and outdoor facilities visit our website webs.com to see if we have a training facility in your area and one of the rules they have is no one is the new Messi do not compare anyone to Messi compare um you know Michael Hamilton is the new Michael Hamilton he’s not the next Lionel Messi and they’re very big on making sure that you don’t compare players because if you compare players you end up missing what value a player has obviously Messi’s a you know it’s a stupid reference but the idea but not everyone’s going to go in at the first te at 16 and be playing for England at 18 and you know be taking over the world at 19 like it’s just so it’s so important you don’t compare um but maybe some of the lower category clubs can gamble a bit more because if your games program isn’t as hard potentially if like you’ve described Cambridge Gillingham you know it’s but it’s hard comparable you know they’re they’re pitting in we are pitting in our best and they’re pting in their best if that makes I would like maybe someone else might view it as it’s not hard but yeah but it’s more that you’ve got more players in category 3es potentially that have long-term that are showing less Effectiveness right now yeah well they if you look at the England team the England SC Pickford Sunderland efl Club Walker Sheffield or Chef I know sheff the Premier League but they shef they were efl club for a lot of time Harry MaGuire you go through the England team it’s so dispersed isn’t there’s a lot of efl lower league stories there um so but that isn’t the same in the England youth team so much I see a lot of Man City Chelsea yeah but a youth team is it’s different right so um yeah so us as as you spike Brits as an example how can AFC Wimbledon have England’s number one under 16 goalkeeper got Chelsea you got Liverpool you got Man City you got Arsenal you got man united how how can Wimbledon have the best goalkeeper in the country at the age group so at some stage you’re getting the most practice without possession a lot possibly okay um but it’s quite obvious at some stage someone’s going to at least try to sign him right so whil you might be going oh yeah but if you look at England team they will come and Cat ones but did they start on cat ones cuz I can imagine a lot of them were purchased at some stage I bet I bet you a large percentage of them were at some stage purchased or or or or or at another club may even been released um you know and you know it is really spread out it does surprise me because I see how great the training is at Chelsea see and I see the what we’re producing so then I then want to then go and look at the England team and I think oh why don’t we have 50% of the England team is sort of like arrogance but you then see that it doesn’t match up like that and it’s really spread out across the whole country yeah but I get CVS of an under 16 that’s been released but was an England International under 15 as an example um there are so much that got like there’s so much that goes into a success story you know look at Dean rice Dean rice of releas Chelsea right was the last player to get his Pro and skull at West Ham you know now we’re talking about 100 million pound player um they are so many stories out so what is Wimbledon doing so well that is producing these talented players opportunity um we we give players opportunity like I said our club and our first team the only way we’re going to grow and sustain is by is by giving players a chance um below that you know we’ve got very good hardworking staff which can get often get overlooked um you know we’ve got our processes and our own little measures that we have in place I’m not saying we was get it right and we have good strong relationships with with our local clubs um yeah if you like Archie Stevens he’s you know yeah we sold him to Rangers not for the money that he probably going to be worth but he got released previously by another Premier League club um um Matthew Cox released by a Premier League club um so you know those relationships are crucial our location probably helps us as well you know um what does a typical wig look like for an Academy player from for an Academy player um under 18’s in four times a week uh Monday Tuesday Thursday Friday um Monday they go to college so when when you sign a scholarship you’re on an apprentice you know so your your education is aligned with your football it’s not a football program that you signing up to it’s an educ you’re an apprentice you know just like um you could be in the office or somewhere so the education linked to it on a Monday morning they go to college T Monday afternoon they train um Tuesday Thursday they train in the mornings and then they get um physical performance sessions in the afternoon so you they go to the gym and work on their individual needs on a Friday on a Wednesday all day college so they don’t do any football at all on a Friday they do um another training session um with a couple hours of classroom as well and on a Saturday obviously obviously games um below that it it your your time table and the hours you have to fulfill is dependent on your category um so if you’re cat one you know yeah your hours would look very different what’s what’s typical for like 9es to 14s is it training three times a week um so Foundation phase so if you go night our our foundation faces 9 to 11s um we get our boys in three times a week um but the rules State you only have to get them in twice a week we get them in three times a week plus game you know that might accumulate as to why we have a bit of success um we’ve got a midphase so we we we strategized like I said and we um specified that we need a it that department needs its own group so between 12s and 14s we need to dig deeper as to why and how we’re going to maximize the potential of players um so they’re in three times a week as well plus you know we try and utilize school holidays and other bits just like most other clubs do um and our 15 16s theying three times a week so on on 15 16s three times a week defin midphase three times a week but you know there might be an odd week here or there that you know it looks a little bit different and foundation phas in on average on average I say that two and a half times a week do category one clubs allow you to come in and see what they’re doing in their training absolutely yeah um yeah we have some good relationships with you know I’m good friends with Jim Fraser um Neil B at Chelsea um you know they want that relationship with Wimbledon um because they can gain from it and you know I’m not being rude I’m not going to go in and taking of their players so in terms of CPD and development and seeing what methods we can Implement you know they’re very open you know cuz it really seems that you’ve got this c one mindset of the way that you’re approaching if you haven’t got the same resources it’s like you’re not going to drop your standards no you no we can’t otherwise we I’m not the way we see it if you want normal results then do normal things you know you ask me you know why why do I think some of the successes we’ve had have happened I think it’s because we don’t settle for what we need to do we we go for what we what we can it’s always limited um you know we don’t own own facilities as an example so we can’t just go and roll out training sessions every day as an example but we always try and be better and always look to evolve um how do the intensity of the training session at Chelsea yeah how does that compare to AFC wwen sessions in your opinion um yeah I don’t if I went and watch the Chelsea session today I’m only seeing that one session right I don’t get to see their whole program so you know depends on the day that I go in what I can say from a Wimbledon perspective is we’re big on hard work we’re big on um you know being challenged and um the boys seeing failure as part of their Journey so if you if you look at a lot of success stories in football and outside of football at some stage there has been failure there has been some form of um challenge um and that if you properly can Propel and and and like accelerate development so we’re quite big on um making sure there there is failure designed in boys programs or failure is part of a boys session um and that’s how we feel we get our gains you know in the most respectful way maybe some clubs don’t have to focus so much on what we do because their players are so much technically better or whatever but we feel we can make up those little gains by overemphasizing on Pardon Me on certain points when you say we build in Failure how do you do that what does that look like um we might set up games against teams that we know we’re going to lose against okay um if we’re up in a game so if I’m taking the Under 12 and we go four five new up I might purposely take players off so that we play underloaded so that the boys are feeling you know can we still dominate can we still do what we do but we less players on the pitch becomes a different challenge um playing players that are positioned on purpose um how does the parents react to this um if you educate the the parents and bring them in to the program and get them to understand why you’re doing it then they can’t really react can they they can a certain type of way and that’s just that’s people but in the most respectful way my my job isn’t to satisfy them my job is to try and make sure and I say this at the beginning that we do everything we can to maximize your young players ability as a footballer our job isn’t and I highlight this I know we’re going off topic a little bit my job isn’t to make your son a footballer that’s not my job my job is to try and make sure he has the best experience whil he’s with us and at some stage he will leave us whether it’s after 2 years after 10 years um because he’s got released or because his um his development isn’t excelling at the rate we need or hopefully he’s leaving us because he’s going to the first team or maybe he’s leaving us because he’s going you know he’s been identified by another club and we selling him at some stage your journey with us as an academy will end it’s my job to give you the best possible development that we can um there’s so much emphasis and you know but I think the academy world and clubs get battered for selling dreams and uh you know if he doesn’t make it it’s so and so’s fault no you know um cuz academies do so much um and he provide players with so much experiences and so much memories that will last for them for a lifetime and hopefully by the end of it he will be good enough to be a footballer um the numbers the numbers are the numbers but then earlier on you were showing a bit of frustration with losing some of the players yeah always going to be frustrated with that yeah yeah yeah yeah but then you then said my job isn’t to look after the parent sorry I don’t want to paraphrase what did you exactly say my job isn’t to um like bow down to the parents they need their own education as well and you know it’s like I said if if you put the player in the middle of a program the parent massively comes into it so our way of dealing with some of our development methods is to educate and get the parent to understand why we do something yeah um yeah yeah so it’s like also yeah getting that parent buying because I completely agree that that is obviously this education that we get where we learn that this is necessary players need to be challenged they need to be stretched failure needs to be happened to have progress but sometimes parents they’re just like oh I want my kid to play in their favorite position I want to see success all the time and so then yeah I was looking to see what education you do in that process but then how you balance trying to keep the parent happy because you don’t want them to leave to stay at Wimbledon if you can yeah and like you said measures and our successes obviously load our conversation and our Point um I’m quite open with this you know I I had school reviews recently with my daughter you know I’ve got a math teacher there I’ve got a science teacher there I’ve got I don’t go to the math teacher well you know are you are your equations correct are your method I don’t question the math teacher I don’t question the science teacher but in football everyone wants to everyone thinks they know more than someone else I don’t have to of course we you know funny enough we’ got parents meetings today there’s a lot of conversations formally and informally that take place there’s a lot of and I do accept and invite challenge because I need to be able to quantify and justify what I do I get that but there comes a time when it’s my job to to not discuss the opinion but to give you my decision or my or my my point you know so um as an example like I said we got parents meetings today and for some of them unfortunately we’re going to be saying look we do not see your player progress you know we don’t see him progressing at then the season reason um they’re not going to want to hear that I don’t necessarily want to deliver that that’s not nice news to deliver yeah but I think this and I think that and I think that my job isn’t to debate your opinion my job is to give you our decision um your job as a parent isn’t you’re not judged on how good your son is or isn’t you’re not judged on whether your boy’s in a cat three cat one or if he’s going to be professional footballer your job as a parent is how he applies himself does he come in and work hard does he um is he happy is he having fun um is he coming in and and and developing and learning because like I said hopefully this one bit of failure or negative news as an example might be the thing that makes him succeed in the future but that is all part of the education program how good are Wimbledon at um working with the parents and the players to address weaknesses and help development so I think it it varies so much from Academy to Academy because you hear good stories you hear Bad stories um in terms of like coaching at different clubs and and relationships and Communications between the clubs and the parents so for example there’s a player I know who was told at a um Academy player was told at a review meeting that the player is doing really well less than three weeks later they were released like so but that’s bad practice yes so I was going to say so in terms of um wimon specifically if you um do you kind of regularly highlight uh areas for a player to work on communicate out the parents so then they can go away and work on that so it’s not just that they show up and it’s like released or yeah we we a parent will always say we and an academy don’t do enough communication I will always say we want to do more but you know I can’t have every conversation every day with everyone um we do sit down with players so you go back to the um Academy rules there are a certain amount of times per year you have to sit down with players and there are certain amount of times you have to sit down with parents um we do that and more and I’m very proud of some of the stuff we do at the Wimbledon there are some if other clubs do other things you know I can’t you know obviously comment on that there’s good practice and there’s bad practice bad practice is yeah me signing a player and going you’re going to be professional footballer Wimbledon don’t worry and then a year later releasing him that is bad practice on my behalf um so I think it’s always it’s my obligation to be honest and um but be real as well you know I could I could be sitting here with a player who’s I don’t know the next best thing but in in 18 mons he can get injured or you know he could be he could go you know something could happen that’s out of our control so it’s it’s wrong for me to say this is what the future is going to look like um but to answer your question I know um I went on a bit yes we highlight areas that he does well and that he needs to keep doing because that’s what makes him him and yes we need we always looking for improvement um and we highlight areas that he needs to improve do you encourage them to then go and find solutions to that so if it is athleticism would you say go and find annc coach and yeah 100% because you have to invest in your future you know people use the word pressure of an academy I don’t use the word pressure I think it’s a privilege if you’re in an academy it’s a privilege to be able to play and um play FAU cup Blackburn Rovers Friday night that’s a privilege that’s not a pressure um we go and draw touch would be get going be Sheffield United and we play I don’t know Arsenal or the Emirates pressure no that’s a privilege how many people want to be in your situation and people use the word sacrifice an investment we use the word investment um you missing a birthday party because you have to go and find an snc coach to work that is not the birthday party isn’t a sacrifice the snc is an investment into your future because you will benefit in that and I think it’s very important we we we change the way we look at things because what they’re trying to achieve is not easy I never I I wanted to be a footballer looking back I was doing nowhere near enough and I was nowhere near good enough um that’s fine if you go into these players um Journeys you know I’m sure at some stage you know I had a player the other day he was 19 you know he’s on the he said mik I’ve never been to a birthday part I miss all my boys miss all my friends birthday parties brilliant that’s what it takes you look at Ronaldo do you think Ronaldo gets to where he gets to because he’s you know it’s it’s pressure and it’s I’m sacri no he his investment and he’s outcome is he’s recognizes to some people the best footballer the world has ever seen as an example so I think it I think the language we use and the messages we relate to the boys can sometimes come back and and and yeah a thing that I’ve noticed from speaking to a lot of parents who’ve had players that have gone on to be successful is that they’re doing a lot of work outside ofies so with what Matthew just said there the player has needs to do work on their athleticism so then having the conversation with you guys and then you’d say go and start working on the outside with an snc coach have I understood that correctly yeah so that even goes on with cat one clubs but would you say that cat one clubs require players to do less on the outside compared to the support that’s required for a cat 3 Club so you understand the question so okay so there’s a requirement to do work on the outside yeah that could be technical work it could be whatever yeah it’s not just you take your kids to an academy and they become a footballer but my question to you is that the requirements to do work on the outside are they less at a cat one Club compared to a cat 3 Club because you have less resources I would yeah yeah formally yes um because the top cat one clubs would have the boys in for more so and we have them in for Less so how are we going to catch up in hours so 100% agree on that um what I will say is even I can’t comment on individualy and stuff even if if us free here cat one Academy and you’re doing your 10 hours a week you’re doing your 10 and I’m doing my 12 well don’t be surprised in six months later mine I’ve accelerated in my developments ahead of yours because I’ve added up the hours so what I and I know some acmis are different I know some acmy want to do less I get that and more isn’t always more but like you have to invest you have to invest in your future by doing more today and it doesn’t always have to be physical it might be just me watching get how many you know I have parents I have players and parents want to have meetings with me and they go you know Michael I want to know what you’re going to do for Joe blogs I’m like okay when was the last time he watched did he watch his Clips at the weekend no he hasn’t watched them yet it’s so funny he said that cuz I’ve been having some conversations recently with parents and it’s weird that um it’s a bit of a broad statement but younger players are they watching less football nowadays yeah because it just it’s weird that I’ve been speaking to parents recently and they say oh they don’t watch that much football on TV um and then not to sort of go off on the tangent or whatever but that’s such a powerful tool watching football just to start learning and understanding and appreciating positional awareness and tactics and everything else um but I suppose it’s different right so nowadays I’m saying that’s potentially that’s a training tool if I want to see what sacka done at the weekend I’ve got 10 15 20 second videos on my phone all the time I don’t have to watch the game to watch that little bit of indiv IND individual action and I think oh that’s that’s that’s what it takes to being a premier league footballer no you’re seeing 20 seconds of a 19 minute game um whereas back in the day you had your match of day which is highlights I get but you know the the visuals the the videos weren’t at our fingertips so we we probably had to watch more football if if that kind of make sense um but that thing of what you just said there of watching huddle watching the game back so at AFC Winwood is every game recorded from under nine upward so you as an academy yeah you have rules that you have to record x amount of games yeah we so we as a catf free Academy we have to record all 18s games um we so that’s that’s the rule all a games we record all a games all 16s games all home games for all our Academy age groups oh that’s brilliant but that’s that goes back to your earlier point about you know we we aren’t happy just doing the the basics you know and we feel it accumulates to you know success I suppose and what percentage of the parents and the children rewatch those games do you think yeah I couldn’t answer that um do you think it’s different at Foundation age compared to yeah um and you got to be careful so whil we record games we’re we’re um specific around what we give the players oh really you don’t just give the full game no well if I if you’re under n parent and I give you the full game yeah what’s stopping you from going oh Chelsea this is what we do Arsenal look we would never ask for that information no comment but yeah um so we’re specific around what we do when but the boys do have access to this and more you know and like I said you have to clip the games to make sure it’s the specific part but then like vo doeses automatically clip for players doesn’t it yeah but sometimes what what a player and the parents looking for might not be what we’re looking for so as an example we got a wi player who we know what he can do on the ball we don’t want to see him on the ball we know I could tell you all day what he does that’s clip him off the ball that’s what’s going to be the difference between him making it or not um so sometimes what a player and a parent value isn’t what is going to be valued in the that’s a lot of work for the video analysis Department to have to speak to the coaches to understand what type of information they want to present to that parent and then do that clip work and that’s going on for each player so all the evidence is out there so I mean but um if you there’s a clip and I I suggest people go there’s pep gordola and he’s talking about L Messi he said L Messi is the best attacking defender in the world and and he’s triggered me and I’ve actually ended up compiling at my own video Lionel Messi at his Peak obviously not now but at his Peak the amount of turnovers and transitions he creates he went and run the ball is is it was massive um Liverpool when he had on firminho salom Mane bang There was a season where he got the most fouls for Barcelona yeah but no one looks at that people look at and I say this to the boys you know people look at the time he beat gets the ball beats three or four pit St corner but that happens once or in his case maybe once a game yeah but he’s touching the ball hundreds of times you know so what’s he doing for the other hundreds of times what’s he doing when he’s off the ball and that’s um that’s people looking at what they want to look at and not seeing what is actually happening if that makes sense yeah um but so your coaches are after a game coming in on the Monday going to video analysis Department saying Johnny needs to work on the oftable movement to go and press and go and shut down much better from the front I want this to be the from the video footage they’re clipping that for two days and then by the Wednesday that’s then shared with the parent no so that that conversation happens on a Sunday you know so if you’re my analyst and we’re watching a game I’d be like right Sean right minute 35 Michael bang minute 40 and you know so that that can happen pitch side oh so the analysis the analyst is there pitch side for each age group they’re present at the training ground yeah and if if I’m a um if I’m a forward thinking coach and that would be my process so by the within an hour of the game finishing I’m I’ve sent you what I’m looking for so that’s an expectation for you as a director of the Youth Academy you’re putting that out to your coaches to say look keep notes of moments that happen make sure you communicate that to the analyst if you get a keen intern Keen analyst yeah you could have that within your within the same day you know um so that can happen and then there’s some parents that will get that information and bloody won’t even watch it yeah stupid stupid I’m not saying that’s you know I’m not saying that’s across but how much do you even want to be a footballer how much do you want your kid to make it if you’re getting that those people are going through that trouble to do that and you’re not even taking the time he doesn’t deserve to be in an academy so then there’s that and then it goes back to my earlier point about you know when when we get financially rewarded if you want to call that for selling the player look what goes into this player um that’s why there’s a frustration on my behalf then there’s the other half where you get a parent you know if I if I have to deliver bad news and go you know Little Johnny unfortunately we’re not going to reregister him I can promise you now if it’s my fault and what we didn’t do and problems that weren’t there 6 months ago you know they’re quick to write me the email and showcase yeah or everything we’ve done wrong we want everyone to go through I need to highlight that you know um but people need to own and and Maxim it’s their opportunity it’s my opportunity yeah definitely how early do you potentially um start channeling a player um into what you want them to be so you can recognize somebody’s probably going to be a fullback or a center forward and what what age do you potentially start to go yeah their future is going to be as a center half or whatever it is let’s start really concentrating on that yeah Foundation phas know they play in multiple positions they get a 360 awareness left or right that’s not to say 9 10 you can’t you know what he loves scoring goals he’s like he loves look at Michael he loves making SL tackles and tackling people have that passion and that uniqueness about them that we can’t give them if that makes sense know some goalkeepers are M don’t they they love around I say this a lot at 8 nine years old you can you can start to tell what type of player they’re going to be that’s a big St I wouldn’t say that I could say of things like oh he loves to score goals he gets so you know he’s probably going to be a forward player oh he just loves to smash people and he’s got that person he’s probably going to be a Defender yeah um but we don’t we wouldn’t just play him in one position you know we love scoring goals actually Cole Lov scoring goals Rees James love scoring goals but then they all became Defenders no I I bet yeah there’s a few examples there but I I you know that you can look at a not all yeah yeah there are definitely players at8 nine years old you can just start telling what kind of character they have yeah and you know that they’re going to be best suited and and end up in this sort of position for me I think it’s a lot more down to the physicality of the player that be part of it as well then like their character and their attitudes so yeah they like scoring goals they’re a bit greedy um they go hang a little bit but then also yeah if they’re Rapid or slow there’s lots of characteristics you can start pcing together 8 n years old and yeah put a good bet on that they’re going to end up in this sort of area on the pitch the fa the fa don’t encourage that no but Foundation your foundation phase you rotate we rotate mid phase we rotate if you start to um get an idea that this player has these strengths and they’re standing out above other players um when do you start to think right let’s start molding them into a number nine or a whatever it is yeah I suppose 13 14ish I would say but even then in some cases it’s still not like black and white you know um and in some cases you do have players that you will still purposely play out a position to to develop certain you so we you know I have this joke with the boys all the time you know fullbacks tend to be the laziest players on the pitch because they want to be they want to um they want to be high when we haven’t got the ball cuz they want to get be the ones that win it and counter um they want to do bits when they’re on the ball but when they lose it then natural reaction is you know not always positive so we sometimes purposely play them fullback as an example so that the game’s in front of them they got more decisions to make they have when they’re not back in position it’s a bit more it’s you Michael no one else wait just just to come back cuz I think just to clarify what you said there you said that fullbacks are the laziest I need to interrupt the podcast one more time did you know that we make footballers is a franchise business we began franchising in 2015 and we now have over 60 franchises in operation across the UK Dubai and US serving over 10,000 players if you’re a talented coach but don’t want to start your own coaching business alone visit franchise wf.com to find out how we make footballers can help you operate a successful football coaching company why players Ah that’s you didn’t say that okay but I think he’s fullback full you meant wide players are the laziest on the pitch but then to help them develop that the recovery run and their work rate you move them back and get them to play fullback yeah yeah as an example um it might be trying to Fig you ever do it to punish players like do you ever play someone out of position and then maybe the coaches are annoyed at the parents for things that’s going on no not Punishment No you don’t take out on a player um if if yeah if if you got a situation with a parent I think you just attack the situation um no nothing you do is a punishment there might be things you do that they don’t agree with yeah so as an example you know a couple years ago the number 10 was the thing you know and number depend how you looked at it we we felt boys saw number 10 as the creative role and I do this and it’s a bit of a luxury role um and it wasn’t so we purposely played these players in different positions to try and highlight and accelerate their development in other areas sometimes the player and parent don’t like that but we’re trying to say yeah 14 15 you might be able to do X and create and whatever but 18 19 trust me you ain’t getting away with it so no what punishment is no but to develop yeah we would change their off there you were saying that there’s a drought for of number nines yeah no so but I think we’ve just come out of an era where the two best players in the world Lion Messi and Ronaldo right so how how many players in the in the playground wanted to be Ronaldo or Messi they played out white so I think it goes in Cycles um sacka and Salah you know so goal scoring number n’s look different to what they did years ago because goal scoring positions now tend to be why players if that makes sense yeah we’re probably going to go or enter an error where people are going to want to be Bingham or going to want to be sacka or going to want to be um I’m trying to think of who else is up and coming so what you’re probably find is um a large percentage of players that resemble X and L so y if that make sense I mean that’s like harand might change that harand so I was going to say the um this isn’t a statement it’s just more of an open question as to the argument about how much benefit and I’m all for rotating positions and learning different positions but if you’re only doing that so much how much benefit are the players really getting from that could it be more beneficial to channel them earlier on into a specific position sacka left back Arsenal I’ve seen clips of sacka 145 playing left back cutting in going running into trouble beating two or three guys he’s only now in the middle of the pitch loses the ball 15 16 you go back to him now 2122 I would say a lot of those skills were were refined when he was playing left back now he plays right sided attacker coming inside very rarely loses the ball comfortable 2V1 against combines par selections on point would he have would he be the player that he is if he played right mid right attacker for his whole thing bellingham’s you know he he wore number 22 didn’t he Birmingham um 48 and 10 equals 22 because they made sure he played in different positions to get all that roundness so I think it’s different for different players but again I don’t and there listen there are some players you just know he’s probably going to be a center back or he’s probably going to be a nine and that’s different so that’s what I mean like there’s I mean so sea Bellingham again we’re using like really extreme examples but could there be more success stories where um they did just specialize in one specific area so what what would have happened to Sea if just from an early age he was wide right and they just kept working that kept drilling that but then maybe he might not have the but it’s contributions that he has to support his fullback yeah but it’s um because the there be other could Total Football that’s all based around you learn every position and there’s fluidity and that seems to be what top managers are doing then we go are we just looking at that top 1% of the top 1% sacker is the top 0.0 1% of the top not all the other professional football players and if the goal is to try and become a professional football player and not just a sacker is their benefit in recognizing early on this player has these strengths let’s just concentrate on that but I think what Michael is saying is that yes that does start to happen but then you say right this player is going to be a central Defender but then we want to expose them to what it’s like to play as a right midfielder so that they get this benefit it might be all playing as a left midfielder because we need them to work on their left footed pass as an example so there’s going to be like a period of time that they’re going to be forced to be in that position to make them better when they come back as a central defensive player yeah and I’d also say I know I give extreme examples but there were probably players playing at Wimbledon at stevenage at Sutton Forest G whoever League one League two who are probably playing in that position and are playing at that level because when they they kid they never played anywhere else I’m I’m I’m not not everyone does move around I’ll just give you two examples and there will be examples of players who have only played one position but that might be because they don’t progress if that makes sense um yeah I don’t think there is an I think everyone’s different I think go scorers is quite unique you know Harland I can imagine har well hitting the back of the net bang touch no touch little little little movements and stuff like that you obviously only get that from playing Center forward um I remember Michael Owen was talking about Michael Owen and he said he never played he said he played in his own age group as a striker for Liverpool and that’s why you know at 17 180 he was one of the best in the world like the guy won a bonor you know how mad like I might go one overlooked he said but because I was playing as a striker for all the academy age groups I was good enough to play up but if I was playing up I’m only getting two three shots a game cuz I’m playing in my own AG group I’m getting 9 10 11 shots a game missing four five six but in that moment refining my technique getting it wrong that accumulates to 17 18 Michael Owen bang on the scene so I think every player journey is different um to answer your question yeah there probably are some cases where they would have benefited from playing in one position um when when you’re signing players what’s that process of signing a player who’s the local head of recruitment for wimon so we got Ben Ben’s our head of Academy T ID um and he manages a group of Scouts we are all Scouts though and we all use different you know so I I’d have different contacts and players would be recommended to me and you know so it all comes into the conversation and then you know once we identify who is worth looking at further and pursuing um then we obviously action the relevant plans um yeah that might be a play has been released do we offer him a trial straight in um a player is at a Grassroots Club do we go and watch him uh well and are you in that involved in that I’m not involved in every single conversation um but every four to six weeks we sit down and we have talent ID meetings so whilst I’m not be I might not be involved as to why Joe blogs has come into the building you know I will be part of the conversation as to if we sign him and what that looks like if and what not going affect the has if who sign him as an example um but yeah no it’s impossible for me to be involved I was going to say are you you involved in the under n signings not um I’m aware of them yeah um I’m aware of boys that we’re looking at I’m aware of the boys that we feel are good enough or feel aren’t going to progress but no that will be led by the foundation phase okay and then what about releases again um I’m in It’s my job to make sure best practice is delivered you know um be specific with certain messages be specific with the process but in terms of delivering the message no that would come from the phase lead and that’s done in person yeah in person okay how many trial lists will you have in the club at any one time that changes age group to age group because obviously your needs and your priorities change um but I would say across the board at a given time across 9 to 18 you probably have like 20 trialist in it at stage and how many of those 20 would get signed depends um obviously not all of them um if two or three of them get signed that’s that’s a strong number I think um yeah obviously we’ve got players in the building that we rate so you know if if we kept bringing players in and signing them I’d really question who we got in the building already yeah um and sometimes you bring a trial thing not necessarily because you’re going to want to sign him but CU you you know just want to Monitor and and make sure that we have made the right decision ision yeah and then when you guys are making that decision- making process on signing a player what are the factors in that conversation loads of different things um what the pathway looks like for that player so who’s ahead of him who’s below him if we sign ex does that stop why from playing up um it depends on the age group obviously with the 18s we do have to Pi a side out each week that’s not to say that there aren’t players younger players that aren’t good enough to play up be good enough to play up but to play up every week might not be good for their development um so there’s a lot of factors in involved um you know if we got so if if you use let me use Spike as an example we might have goalkeepers that we don’t see us of Spike’s level on trial but we forecast that we’re probably going to lose spike in six months time so therefore we have to intensify maybe sign one or two players that under normal circumstances we wouldn’t so yeah there are so many facts that come into the conversation um yeah it sounds like you’re doing incredible work man and with like the resources that you’ve got it seems that you’re able to really like lead your team one thing that I wanted to ask was how long you keep your coaches for on average so yeah you talk about productivity um we we’ve had over 30 staff members in the last four years so what’s that Savage what eight nine a year yeah go on to cat one cat 2 or senior football so we’ve had massive productivity and success with staff moving on um Al so you see that as success when your staff move on no trust me it’s very frustrating it’s going to say very frustrating it really um because they see but it has to be success right so because you know use James ol of a pier James ol of appear at the weekend he led Reading Football Club which is a massive football club you know um ex Premier League he he led them for last 20 minutes of a game because Ruben Salis got sent off but he was our under 18s coach two years ago you know replacing James wasn’t never going to be easy and I’m very fortunate we you know we’ve got Simon clarky now who’s excellent but at the time no it’s it’s frustration but for him I’m proud of his journey I’m I’m really excited for him but from the academy manager perspective no because I have to you know I have to go through the the whole process of recruiting educating and and you know so no it’s not it’s not something we celebrate but it is Success because you know it’s it’s another sign or measure that we’re doing something right um so yes we’ve we’ve lost or had over 30 staff members of the last four years move on to New Opportunities which is a positive for them um do you sometimes wish you had a bit more budget that you could then keep them ABS yeah CU it’s it’s very hard to build and sustain when you’re sometimes going back to square one in certain cases yeah but what I need to say is you know we got we got a strong Academy Management Group um some of those have been in for years so he speaking about Jack earlier you know Jack’s been at the club now for seven eight years Ben’s been at the club for six seven years we’ve got Nicholas wght we’ve got Ben Yuan who’s he’s not been in too long but you know he’s starting to establish himself as a as a senior Academy manager in the academy management and so it’s not possible to deliver this program and to have our successes with good people in place um and it you know at one stage someone’s going to go on onto their next opportunity and as frustrating as it is for me it is a success because you know it means we’re doing something right just going back into trial lists again and you know that conversation on getting a player signed does it ever happen in clubs not necessarily Wimbledon but does it ever happen in clubs where that you’re aware of a club say you have to sign this boy yeah I’d be lying if I if I said that a situation like that never occurred yes um that’s not to say it’s right by the way but yeah sometimes who you know and the and the the structure the politics involved might lead to a decision yes yeah do you are you trying to is the academy trying to produce play an I said the the metrics of success include going on to play for the first team or being signed by another club and you selling them but are you overall trying to develop players to play for the first team and then AFC wimon are a lower league club so you’re trying to develop players to play in the lower league no my my dream is to produce uh a wimbl than 11 of 11 Academy players and they’re so good that they either Drive the club to success and they progress the leagues which is very difficult and or they’re so good that they get recognized by others and and and and take the next steps of their career that is my ideal um it’s not as simple as that of course and there are other considerations that need to be had um but it’s it’s us selling players at 14 15 16 it’s not something we want to do um but it has to be if if it if you went back years ago go if we sold a player to man city as an example we would have had a lot of frustration a lot of people would be very frustrated at you know the word that’s going in and we’re not going to see it come to fruition but my I was seeing that having very negative energy and one of the things that you know I try to do is bring people together and go look I know it’s frustrating and we can’t control certain parts of it and ultimately if you don’t like it you’re probably in the wrong industry cuz that’s probably where we are in the in the SoCal pecking order however if you take a step back it’s a massive success you know we’ve got one of our players going on to play for what is the best club in the world we’ve got one of our players going on to a worldclass facility and a world-class program and he’s come from little old Wimbledon so that is a success um so I I think it’s how you see it of I don’t want to sell any players I think the thing that we talk about a lot is is there a difference in trying to produce a premier league player and then trying to produce a player for the lower leagues yeah so then is the approach by the academy different even going to the lengths of playing football with VAR compared to not with VAR well um yeah we want to produce the best players we can possibly produce right um and there are some players you look at ramale and you look at Jamie vard Harry Kane you know there were players that at some stage weren’t the players that they are that’s not something we can forecast there are some players that you know I’m looking at they getting opportunities in the first team and I’m like oh that might be a little bit too early for them they might sink here 80 months time they’re flying and you know they kick on um that is part of the the program that we can’t manage but ultimately no we want to produce players that play Premier League International Football one of our measures so one of our strategic um objectives to the to the club is if and when we do sell a player he’s going to the top two tiers of English football um and or he’s being recognized at International level that says to me that we are sitting at the top of the Category 3 conversation um but unfortunately not everyone the percentages they’re too small you know you look at Chelsea Arsenal man united how many of their players play in the Premier League it’s it’s no one but everyone’s going for the same thing aren’t they ultimately I think because we’ve had Direct experience with within an academy that they quite bluntly want to produce players for the lower leagues to do I experien at QPR all right to the to the extent where they were doing drills that were based on going long yeah the hook on listen you’ve said that I’ve not said that no I think like might have changed since then like this was back in the days when like Steve Brown was the manager yeah no but I’m saying so um yeah it happened then yeah we talk openly on this podcast we don’t hide that’s why I want to come back to what you were talking about with the nepotism yeah so so can you give do you have anything more you want to finish on that point before I no no that was it it was more a like I said we’ve experienced and it is going back a while but I imagine it might still go on now but the extent that some clubs are designing drills for a player to be effective in that first team because that first team are playing in a league where they go long and where they’re more physical and where they’re more direct so rather than um doing draws where they’re encouraging to play out from the back and develop develop a football player doing draws to more for a style of play of being direct but the thing is like I don’t think that happens anymore because there’s been such an fa overhaul since those days so like if all the coaches have done their FA badges they’re trained in a very similar way so generally you football is rotate positions play through the thirds generally it’s not that there’s not an education around different styles of football but I think I have a feeling that even in lower league clubs they’re still developing footballers to play kind of well I don’t know the point you’ve made you know it’s not really for me to comment what I would say is the under 18s are closer to the first team than the under 14s as an example so yeah and there are certain requirements and certain positional needs that players need to have if they are going to make that jump what I can say is if we don’t prepare players for what the first team requires are we then underdeveloping are we setting them up for failure what I would hate to hear and I don’t think you’re saying that is like the nines tens Els twelves are being prepared for lower league football which you know that’s a whole new conversation but what I was if we are if we are developing players for the next stage in their development and they are near the first team then they are you know the first team game requires and looks like a certain way um you know center backs need to head the ball center backs are going to get roughed up they’re going to have to come and attack the ball and also recover if you’re a wide man yeah you’re going to have to be very good at beating your man and getting crosses in but you’re also going to have to do the other work so there will be an emphasis on the older age groups dependent on their circumstance to set them up for the next bit of their development if they don’t cuz if if if if if you don’t prepare them for it then you’re not develop in them are you do you have a an idea as to when that is 15 16s we we we we we look to dominate possession we have a heavy 1 V one development program with a younger boys um like I said we rotate positions we want to dominate the ball when we lose it we want to go and get it back as quickly as possible and in transitions we want to be effective um both positive and negative we all preparing players for the future game what does the future game look like well it’s becoming a lot more positional a lot more possession based transitional football in IQ is going you know you going and play for the top teams now you you got to know where to be when to be why to be um it’s becoming a lot more athletic that is what we’re trying to prepare players for if if if that makes sense yeah it’s what I would say if you’re not preparing the boys for what their next step looks like so if they’ve been touching distance of a League 2 club and I’ve not got my center backs heading the ball and I’ve not got my second my Center midfielders playing but at the same time picking up second balls and then being you know putting his foot in for tackles then I’m setting him up for potential failure um so yeah I think if you’re a good developer and you got a good group about around you you can put a plan in place I’m not saying you can answer everything but you can definitely see what a player has and what he needs mhm um yeah so what’s this example that you’ve experienced with a player that was what is has there been a player that they’ve said the board have said you got you got to have take them um I don’t know about the board but I suppose it’s like any Walk of Life isn’t it um it’s who you know um and you know you do hear some horror stories of players that have been signed because he’s related to I don’t know the first team manager or or or related to someone who holds Authority within the academy setup or whatever it may be um yeah there there’s a lot there’s a lot of different stories and you know they’re all out there I’m not saying it’s right by the way um but yeah you you do but then I suppose if if there was an opportunity or a job in another industry of position power whatever you want to call it and someone knew someone within that set set up then you know the same principles will probably apply it’s not right but yeah I would be lying if I said it doesn’t happen so there could be a player who isn’t good enough I mean I experienced this at QPR see why don’t you say it you can say I say I’ll say what I experienced at QPR so I worked bloody hard with my under eight group bloody Blood Sweat and Tears put all my effort in Mark buram who’s a club Legend was then wonder if he’s going to find me come beat me upk if you listen said anything’s let’s find out yeah but man like his boy went in goal and I think we scored maybe like 18 goals and like this was under eight nah he’s definitely not at that level to be goalkeeper so we didn’t have that sort of problem again we didn’t have him like try and say oh yeah I want him to train with the group or anything like that I just didn’t hear from Mark again I was just carrying on with my group so as far as you knew he’d left the program the boy this so Mark said I want my kids team is really good can we have a game against the QPR Development Group that you got I’m like all right cool like we had good players yeah and so then this was like arel and those ones so anyway so yeah Big Score line and then anyway I didn’t hear anything more from him and he’s the assistant Academy director at the time anyway then get through get to the point where finally got this group I think I locked it in with maybe nine players I kept it very very tight and I’m saying just this bare nine this is all we need it’s the best that we can have for QPR so anyway got all the signatures done like amazing and then maybe like 2 months later I start hearing that they’re bringing in all these other under like they brought in maybe another like 10 And my trial process had been so strict up to that point it was so hard to get in my group I released so many players and I felt they ruined it like suddenly there was like 20 players in the group and butam had put his boy in the team yeah I’m like how the hell has that happened and that at that time that was going on at QPR with like Jerry Francis had his boy in there Paul Furlong had his boy and his boy’s actually gone on to be Pro and he was actually really good so there are obviously examples where Pros do have like genuinely a kid is good enough but that was an example it wound me up it upset me so much and then the other coaches were then frustrated because then they it wasn’t doing well on a Sunday it was all because it wasn’t on Merit yeah and that’s if you pick a boy and you I suppose if you asked you know what does it feel like going out and underperforming every week being one of the worst players conceding ex you know that needs to be looked at um I know there’s parental View and opinion and obviously you’re talking from a St a club and staff part but I’d like to think the player himself wouldn’t have been comfortable in that situation do do know what I mean because someone knows when you’re not performing and doing well um yeah unfortunately it happens i’ like to think things have got better and titer since then um so you have enough control in your position where you can have full control any signing from an academy perspective yes I’m happy to have any convers you know if if Johnny Jackson’s the Curr manager if Johnny Jackson might my son brilliant let’s have that conversation you know and I like to think we’ve got the mutual respect that we can both come to the table and and and find Common Ground I’m just using that as as an example um so yeah but I can honestly say that case that you just highlighted hasn’t happened at Wimbledon um it does happen you just highlighted it I know there’s another club where my friend was the under 18’s manager and he was getting influenced by their Club who the chairman was closely linked maybe even business with an agent and they were forcing players to get signed because of that agent yeah you hear you hear these stories yeah um and my mate ended up leaving the club and they were trying to put so much pressure on my friend that but he’s very smart and he worked against HR and he went through all the me meetings and they couldn’t get rid of him but this is what they were trying to do because he wouldn’t back down with forcing with them forcing those players on him I suppose that’s what you you’ve just answered isn’t if if you’re put in a situation where you are being forced not even to make decisions but decisions are being forced upon you then ultimately you got to turn and go and question is this the right place for you U cuz they lost them then yeah that’s that’s that’s not healthy for anyone no one benefits from that knowing what you know and all of your experience how um how much would you potentially push your child to get into Academy football um cuz it the commitment parents make is often overlooked um the driving you know picking up from school preparing food getting to training three four times a week you know hats off to them um that’s I I couldn’t say I could do that that’s just me being honest um at the same time if if my I haven’t got a son but if my boy was in an academy program i’ I’d be very much enjoyed the experience you know enjoy the journey um and I would welcome and and look forward to the Milestones that he would experience the tours the tournaments the games the development um it depends what you’re looking I wouldn’t look at it as oh my boy is going to go into an academy and be a pro footballer or he can only go into an academy to if he’s going to be a I think that’s the wrong that’s the wrong if my I’ve got a daughter if my you know if you want to be elite or in the 1% of anything it’s hard you know if she turns around and say Dad I want to be the number one actress in the world that’s hard if I want to be the number one sing the new Beyonce that go if I want to be in SAS whatever it is there’s a reason why it’s called Elite it’s not for everyone it’s not meant to be for everyone it’s not easy to get into um I think people like I said they they they go against the clubs and against people when their dreams ain’t realized it’s bad practice if a club like I said is is promising things and don’t deliver that’s different but what I can say ismy on the whole do a lot of good stuff they bring a lot of unique once in a lifetime opportunities to you know if I use Chelsea example I can imagine they taking their boys across the world you know these boys are going to places that their families and their parents has never been and will probably never be and they’re playing against the best of the best and you know that is so unique and so powerful in itself the best club in the world enjoy enjoy the journey um we are but if you want to be the best at anything it’s not going to be easy so why we don’t don’t set your son up for for failure by promising him that outcome there’s a reason you know the numbers are there’s 92 clubs in the country um or 92 professional clubs in the country 11 can turn out for them each weekend five can come on so you’re talking about you what’s that L less than 1,00 players can turn out and be and call them themselves professional footballers at at the weekend but Millions want to get there it’s not meant to be using that’s a really refreshing and like healthy way to look at it um so then the one of my slight annoyances with with this kind of whole journey is how a lot of people celebrate signing for an Academy is almost like they’ve made it yeah and then it’s kind of the opposite of what you’re saying so like it’s a great day it’s hard so hard to sign for an Academy like You’ got to celebrate it you got to celebrate your Milestones as they happen yeah but it’s it’s it’s recognizing that yeah you’ve done something well yeah but it’s then it feels like they feel like they’ve made it and they’re a pro that’s different that’s that’s that’s the wrong message I would say they’re not they’re developing I think but the messages are good like sign sign days that I’ve experienced is like enjoy your day you’ve worked so hard for this well done but it’s like tomorrow you know it’s another day and you’re back in the journey and you got to think about your habits and it’s a continual Journey like that message is shared across a lot ofies yeah like if if if you’re if you have a player that makes his first team debut celebrate that celebrate but you’re not football yet no that’s what I mean it feels like a lot of the time when a player signed for an Academy they’ve met and they I get the sense that it’s like they’ve they’ve achieved they’ve achieved what they want to achieve and they they don’t I’m just going to interrupt the podcast for 30 seconds to tell you about we make footballers we make footballers are the largest football coaching provider to Children Age 4 to 12 in the UK operating across 200 facilities we focus on developing the individual working on the techn and physical components of the game and it’s had amazing results with hundreds of our ex players joining professionaly and four of our ex players currently playing in the Premier League our program is built around small-sided play using indoor and outdoor facilities visit our website weake footballers oncom to see if we have a training facility in your area I don’t know it feels like there’s this almost false sense of achievement because yes to sign for an Academy is a brilliant achievement it’s it’s very very difficult and yes I like the way that you kind of explain and describe how you should potentially treat your journey in an academy um you know take it as an experience and learn from it and enjoy it uh it doesn’t mean you’re then going to go to be a professional and name names which parent tell us um stop putting me off my train of thought um and ultimately if we’re looking at the idea of wanting to become a professional being in an academy for a few years isn’t that no so it’s it’s yeah recognizing you’ve done something well but if a couple of years later you’re released then yeah it’s ongoing process not what was the point but okay why why kind of celebrate and feel like being in the academy was this huge huge thing when a few years down the line you’re not in professional football there are parents that Unfortunately they measure their own success based on the the football and ability of their kid your foot your your son isn’t a footballer he’s just he’s he’s a young boy who happens to be skilled in football that’s different you know if if if my daughter can draw pictures doesn’t make her own artist does it for I know what you mean I agree both I think celebrate the Milestone but don’t judge him or judge yourself on it you know I come against parents and no I can never no he’s a cat one player he can never be kept free all right if that’s your view I could tell you where this prob going to end um no you can’t release him he’s always been in the academy no you got it’s going to be embarrassing or if that’s your view that probably highlights a potential area as to why he hasn’t developed um like you the like we have boys made their debutes I’m like you’re not a footballer yet I’ve made 10 10 games now you’re still not a footballer you can it can end tomor um celebrate it when you’ve had your career or when you’ve you know done your bits whatever that looks like but yeah we celebrate stuff that isn’t it’s it’s it’s the next step it’s a milestone but it’s not the way I look at devies you’re still developing football in the first team is about performance and results you have to perform and you have to get result below that you’re developing just enjoy the journey um and I know it’s quite it’s contradictory in my role in the sense that I don’t want to deliver negative news but there’s a lot of um case studies out there where a lot of players have gone on to achieve because at some stage like I said they they faced some sort of they they faced a hurdle they they faced a setback and it’s actually that hurt has actually helped prop propel them yeah um we had a player as example we had a 17 we signed him at 15 16 he’s with the 18s at 17s he’s in the first team so for two years he’s only felt um positivity only been posit milestones in his little journey and rightfully so he was excellent at AG 1718 he was in the first team and they weren’t doing well and he started to get like he start to get a bit of negative criticism by the fans and stuff he didn’t know how to handle it the reason he didn’t know how to handle it is because it was the first time he was handling it and he’s handling it on the first team stage if that makes sense so how do you perform in in a situation that you’ve not experienced before but now all lies on you and you still have to perform and that’s why you know in a player’s Journey you have to set them up for failure you have to strategic strategically place failure in their Journey but don’t judge them if they’re don’t judge them on their football in ability they just happen to be talented in football um I think the point I was trying to get across maybe yeah I’m articulating it well is it just it sometimes it feels like the goal is to get signed at an academy when then you’re stuck already AR if if your goal is to be signed there’s just there’s so much um yeah celebration and and yes we’ve made it whatever Journey we need to do and whatever we need to do to help us become a professional football player that’s what we need to be working towards we shouldn’t be working towards let’s get signed at Academy getting sign at the Academy is very different to becoming a professional football player yeah yeah because then that links into what Michael was saying earlier in terms of the work that has to be done on the outside for the player with the parent sourcing snc coaches speak coaches different people that might support with the players weaknesses and maybe even developing strengths further but yeah there is a continual process in that Journey absolutely parents need to understand that it can’t just be right we’ve signed for the Academy now they’re going to do all the work and make my child into a footballer no doesn’t happen like that um Michael I mean I had a good idea of the great work that you’re doing at AFC Wim wooden I I felt it from parents that I’ve spoken to that have children at AFC Wim wooden coaches that I know time I spent with you I did feel that this was happening but you know hearing you talk over this episode has been amazing and like at David Lloyd where you know we both all work in that sort of Lounge area and you’re one of the hardest working people in there you know you’re always on your laptop you’re always working you’re always on a phone I can tell that you know you don’t have a lot of resources but you’re doing incredible incredible work so yeah I hope you’re proud of it I hope parents who have children at the Academy I’m sure they’re going to be listening to this and they’ve got a better Insight of the great work that you do and yeah you know I hope that they’re grateful for what what you do um yeah thank you and it’s not me you know there’s a group of people that make it happen um yeah and one one indiv individual person isn’t responsible for it all but no thank you for that and yeah thank you for what’s been your best memory at wimbl and over the 16 years you’ve been there um the best memory being invited on to project footballer yeah no that’s second um there’s there’s been so many I remember a few years ago we went up to Newcastle in the fa youth cup 2016 I believe it was and we beat Newcastle in the fa youth Cup and the next round we have to play um we play Chelsea next round at Kings Meadow Mason Mount Tammy Abrahams um we win that game 32 4 4-1 41 it’s won all for about 60 65 minutes yeah and you had like 3,000 fans yeah Joe Edwards was manager he he talked to us about it because he said and there’s something that we’ve learned from that game that we need to make sure we’re developing our players to play in all different situations and there were players that were just so shocked they’ never played in front of that sort of fans before that environment he they literally done a whole presentation about that game yeah know I’ve heard yeah that that was a good Milestone um you know you got Jack curry last year who he makes a debut on the first game of the season against J jham and he pops up at the back post and scores in his debut and that’s like brilliant but then you look and he’s been with the club since he was 8 years old and you know the journey and the conversations and the ups and downs um yeah there were so many Maron it’s hard to say one yeah it’ be very difficult to say even James oliv Pierce you know James oliv Pierce he he Rings me one day and says M you know I’ve been off for the job at a championship club and I’m like you know I’ve known him for seven eight years he’s played a massive part in our program but that’s his next to you know so yeah there are too many to mention yeah no well done great work thank you guys and I’m well done on you know you got a great little product here hope hopefully it’s providing awareness and an understanding to people in the industry to understand what goes on a lot of it’s hidden understandably you know we’re in a competitive space but I think the education will actually benefit and help England as as a whole become a better football nation
5 Comments
some refreshing points, as a parent of a child at a cat 1 academy I learnt alot.
Thanks
The strategic use of repetition in certain phrases or visual motifs adds a rhythmic quality to the storytelling. It's a subtle yet effective narrative device.
I couldn't agree more with Mike in the mindset of investment, a positive and growth mindset. This is so important for young footballers and it starts at home. As a father I can see the challenges for ensuring my young man has that. It is a challenge at times, as they get older and wish to test boundaries but helping them to keep the mindset of growth and future goals is so very important.
I’ve got a 13 year old boy and an 11 year old girl both playing academy level. Love the podcast. Can you also get some people in from the girls/womens game. Would love to see if and where the differences are.
The host asking “do you ever play a player out of position to punish him” that speaks volumes about his mindset and he didn’t even flinch