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Get ready for this episode of Women of Impact all about how to spot the charming, seemingly “nice guy” narcissists who are out on the hunt for smart and successful women like you to use and suck the confidence right out of!!
This interview will teach you how to take your power back so you don’t feel small, stupid, and powerless for years in an unhealthy and toxic relationship, and actually HEAL from the wounds so you don’t end up broken, full of shame, insignificant, and in the same toxic situation…again!
And today’s guests here to help with that are Stephanie Quayle and Dr. Keith.
Stephanie is a successful country singer, and her story is insaaaaaane! For 4 years, she was with a seemingly “nice” guy who actually had multiple secret lives while attending his funeral after his unexpected death! He was prolifically cheating on her and lying to her and she had no idea until she was at his funeral!
It wasn’t until she finally got professional help from experts in narcissism, like psychologist Dr. Keith, that she was able to begin to let go of the shame and break the cycle of toxic relationships!!
In this episode, we’re diving into:
– The LIES you believe that keep you blindsided in your relationship
– The warning signs he’s TOO nice and is actually probably toxic
– The tactics they use to “clip your wings”, make you feel trapped and take away your power
– How to escape the victim mindset and stop blaming yourself for falling for the charming, “nice guy” narcissist
– 3 strategies for coping with the wounds left from a narcissist so you can take ownership of your story, make a change, and actually HEAL
– Why you need to seek professional help as soon as possible in these toxic situations to break the cycle
– And what you can do to take your power back and actually UNLEARN all the shame, guilt, and wounds that have been ingrained in you
Hearing another woman’s story and experiences like Stephanie, and how she was able to heal her wounds and actually become better, stronger, and more confident than before is not only CRAZY inspiring, but actually changes lives!
When anyone is able to recognize their relationship for the toxic and unhealthy situation that it is, then they can actually DO something about it, and that’s what I want for you from this episode, homie!!
CHAPTER MARKERS:
😖 [00:00] Being “the other woman”
❌ [7:49] The dangers of overlooked non-red flags
🔄 [30:57] Toxic relationship’s impact on personal growth
🧠 [48:40] Earning trust & seeking help
❤️ [1:17:18] Take responsibility & embrace imperfection
🔥 DR. KEITH & STEPHANIE’S FIRE QUOTES:
“But part of it, the manipulation, is make your target not trust herself, not trust her own gut, not trust what she thinks is reality.”
— Dr. Keith
“The people I see stuck in these relationships are like, I’m a good person who’s committed to making this work. I’m conscientious, and I want to make it work.”
— Dr. Keith
“Working is a way to turn yourself off. That’s honestly maybe one of the better or healthier ways to do it than just a full flame out.”
— Dr. Keith
“That’s the point I always try to make, is this happens to very, very successful people. And when people talk to me, they go, I must have been a loser because of this. I’m like, Scary Spice isn’t a loser.”
— Dr. Keith
“Watch how people act. Watch how they treat everybody, not how they treat you…Watch how they treat the staff, watch how they treat the uber driver, watch how they treat other people that don’t offer them any.”
— Dr. Keith
“I even reached out to one of the women that I think was that I was the other woman too and just said, I would love to talk to you because I think that I might have been the other woman in your life.”
— Stephanie
“And so that for those that feel like they can’t and feel like they’re drowning or in quicksand, like, I’m proof that you can get out.”
— Stephanie
Follow Stephanie Quayle:
Website: https://www.stephaniequayle.com/home
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stephaniequayle
Order “Why We Stay”: https://a.co/d/3eWfX1D
Follow Dr. W. Keith Campbell:
Website: https://www.wkeithcampbell.com/
SubStack: https://wkeithcampbell.substack.com/
Order “Why We Stay”: https://a.co/d/3eWfX1D
Follow Me, Lisa Bilyeu:
Website: https://www.radicalconfidence.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lisabilyeu/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lisabilyeu
X: https://twitter.com/lisabilyeu
If you want to dive deeper into my content, search through every episode, find specific topics I’ve covered, and ask me questions. Go to my Dexa page: https://dexa.ai/lisabilyeu
Themes: Confidence, Relationships, Business, Mental Health, Self-Improvement
you know there’s so much embarrassment that comes with choosing the wrong partner because people would say to me I mean you’re smarter than that how did you let this happen to you get over it you were ConEd by somebody who was very high in status who was a professional and manipulating people and you’re being broken down over time and because I didn’t process it it compounded and then boom toxic relationship number [Music] two you in a relationship for 4 years until that horrifyingly tragic day that you found out that your partner died in a plane crash and at his funeral you then learned the utter truth that in fact you were just one of so many women and that he was living multiple lives for years so tell me what are the lies that us women believe that leads us to being betrayed and blindsided when he was all mine he made me feel like I was all his and I think one of the things about him is I think I was more of a conquest uh more than you know U like that actual love that comes just with loving someone so I’m you know we’re living together I’m raising his daughter with him the night we got the call I had just brought her home from school you know she was doing her homework it was like any other night and so there was never any time to really understand the magnitude of the just the traumatic Act of losing someone the way that we both did uh 5 days later at Santa Monica Airport is where we had this public memorial for him and we had prepared uh his daughter and myself had prepared some words but we didn’t recognize the Sea of strangers I had these interactions that were super bizarre and my friends had interactions that were very bizarre with other women and it was just so convoluted and then when my friend came over to my house that night and said no I I met his girlfriend we don’t expect people to be bad we just want we want to believe people so I yes he was charismatic and charming and all those things and women were drawn to him as were men but I didn’t think he was cheating on me because I couldn’t fath them raising a child with someone being that involved in such like the most precious part like I don’t have my own kids but that just broke me that someone could do that and it’s so common and that’s extra heartbreaking you know I think at first I thought no there’s no way that this could ever be so common and it’s crazy common for people to be deceived even when their family is at stake I even reached out to one of the women that I think was that I was The Other Woman too and just said I would love to talk to you because I think I think that I might have been The Other Woman in your life and I just want to like like let’s just have that conversation it’s not comfortable right I mean there’s a lot of Confrontation in in the book where I I put myself in those positions because I just you only find out by finding out the truth by actually having the conversation versus you know taking in other people’s versions of the truth and I think what we often do is blame the other woman totally completely whereas in this scenario I think the re what’s beautiful of use that very delicately what’s beautiful in your story is the fact that none of you guys knew and so when you think about how many people got the same lie you do that you’re unique you’re special you’re the one well then you say that story enough to enough women everyone ends up believing it so yeah that lie that you’re you’re the special one you’re unique what exactly then is that doing to us women when we hear those types of things Dr Keith well that’s saying to you that you want commit so if I’m a guy saying you’re special you’re unique you’re everything that means I want to have a serious commitment with you and that means as a woman I put down my guard and go okay this is my guy I’m going to commit to it’s manipulation it’s dishonest it’s lying um but it’s effective because people are charming and and you’re not used to people just lying to your face especially if you think they love you yeah yeah and that idea my God it’s obviously EXT extreme in the sense of you you ended up having to find out at his funeral and so you actually tell a story in your book as well um about how you guys were on vacation and a woman comes up to your boyfriend the guy that we’re talking about that sadly passed away um Paulo and she just starts straddling him mhm and kissing him mhm and you ask him later what the hell was that yeah and what does he say to you he uh he tells me I’m insecure and crazy and why why am I creating problems essentially and and in that moment I remember like is this what adults do I mean I’m was still like in my you know 20s maybe maybe this is what I mean it sounds so stupid like maybe maybe this is like maybe this is acceptable I mean I’m from Montana I don’t know like I don’t know what’s going on here and I I just remember it feeling in my gut wrong yeah and I overrode that in the moment because I didn’t want to be the uncool one calling out her you know guy and this married woman and he just belittled me and and shut me down and it never was one giant thing it was all these little moves that just kept me right where he wanted me MH and so help us talk through this Dr Keith of like what that again is doing to us women with the jealousy specifically where you can be the person that is beautiful and sweet and kind and love your partner like you are Stephanie and yet you had told this astronomical lie that if you weren’t in it people were like oh my God that’s ridiculous right but you bought it hook line and sinker and I mean that obviously with utter compassion because he manipulated you to do that oh completely so people can be very predatory in these relationships it’s very hard to think like this if you’re like I love people I want to be I love my wife I want to be friends and maybe Partners business partners and parents I don’t think about how to man ulate them in a very hard way so what’s going on is a lot but part of it the manipulation is make your target not trust herself not trust her own gut not trust what she thinks is real reality so you destabilize a person’s sense of reality and once the reality is destabilized they don’t know where to turn the only person they can turn to is you right so it gives you more power in the relationship so what happened in that case of Steph she’s like what’s going on here yeah you know this and the guy instead of going oh but it’s busted he’s like nothing are you crazy what’s wrong with you and all of a sudden you’re destabilized destabilized if Stephanie had her you know three F her dad was there and three of her buddies going no Stephanie he’s a liar it would be fine but you were isolated you were alone you were in separated from your house and you were in a position where you were didn’t have any power and your Natural Choice was to to agree you do that over and over and they just cut you like you said clip your wings which when you said that that just killed me they just cut off all your support like a cult leader and then it’s very easy to control you and it’s and it’s systematic and it takes place over time like you said little shortcuts yeah it’s it’s evil kind of stuff and that actually goes to the other thing where you talk about some that sometimes there were zero Flags you actually say in your book that you never got lost in his shadow that you’re uh it was kind of like I meet you where you are kind of grownup love and it actually developed over time it wasn’t like you were loved bomb from the moment you met him so these kind of three non red flags I assume then contribute to these moments that he’s isolated you because there’s no way he’s going to do this in public right he’s not going to do it when he’s around your dad cuz he knows Dad can’t get away with so do you think that it’s possibly that combination then of not of having these things that people are calling red flags that actually didn’t happen to you where it did happen slowly over time and you know you guys were friends for a while before you guys ever were dating yeah I didn’t really understand what grooming was I I didn’t even know about that term so when he kind of took me under his wing as his little sis and introduced me like that to you know other women he was dating and it was very familial and so it felt very safe you know and I can’t even really pinpoint the moment it went from lil Sis to you’re my girlfriend like it was such a trans a quick transition and he was older and he just had this way about him that I I trusted very quickly but because we had all those years before as little sis you know and so now looking back that just seems extremely um manipulative and and planned he was using his daughter in this process I just find that a little bit wrong I should say I have daughters I I can’t imagine it but you when you when you meet Somebody’s Daughter and and and you assume they’re a good person because they have a daughter and they’re allowing you to interact with the daughter you go this must be safe this must be good this person’s a good person it’s really not it’s really not fair to do that no and I think about her a lot in all of this and how she was like a pawn she was a a pawn it’s a good being used as a tool by a parent and that kind of manipulation is just it’s really it’s treacherous it’s beyond what’s normal I mean look when you get to the point where you’re using your child as a toour to be able to help manipulate other people there’s definitely some deep seeded wounds and Trauma going on there but the point that you were making especially about the daughter you know your book why do we stay it’s like these are the reasons right you fell in love with the daughter as well there was a commitment there and thinking through I mean what was she 12 years old when he passed away 12 years old di young to then have to process that my father was a narcissist had multiple lives and different women and things like that must be just difficult fa but when I when we talk about like I’ve done so many interviews on red flags it’s like how do you spot the signs but to be honest there were moments that there on any signs and that’s why I really wanted to bring that up because when you met him right he was like he was a doting father you met the daughter you loved her he’s calling you sis like little sis and so it seems all very normal like friendships and um yeah so that I think is actually really important for us to talk about because so many people and I’d love for you to uh touch on this is how much we blame ourselves G I have been living in shame for over 15 years that’s a long time yeah and I don’t think I realize the potency of Shame you know I I being a singer songwriter on stage Entertainer having to flip you know having to flip the switch you’ve just got really bad news but you have to go get on stage and perform you know so much of my life has been that that it was very easy to kind of just let my shame live inside me but it’s so debilitating because you’re I was not aligned with myself so I was face forward everything’s fine inside you know just this ball of Shame and you know there’s so much embarrassment that comes with choosing the wrong partner or choosing the wrong business partner or just you know making wrong decisions and I think that the embarrassment in shame that came with that whole thing because people would say to me I mean you’re smarter than that you’re smart how did you let this happen to you yeah uh get over it I I mean that those were and I everyone’s intentions were not bad they just didn’t have the terminology they didn’t have that emotional intelligence the the thoughtfulness that comes with like hold on a second maybe we need to process this and because I didn’t process it it compounded and then boom toxic relationship number two and it was like a carbon copy and you know when we think about the on liners that can be so debilitating you know uh toxic number two which I refer to as the prince in the book uh I’m going to teach you that you can trust Menan that’s what he said to you Bo oh God I mean and I was so raw and I was so undone and I had it done the work I didn’t have this book I didn’t know Keith I didn’t have the information or the terminology or even the pause button to go you know what I’m taking a pause I got to figure this out I just powered through you actually mentioned it earlier the clippings of the wings that word really hit me and in your book I basically wrote them down as clip number one clip number two because that’s how you refer to them because it becomes the slow things the over time that I think that you know people Miss whether it’s your first toxic relationship or another one and so I’d love to go through some of theing and really break them down so clip clip number one is the criticism that made me critical about myself so he came to you’re 26 years old and he com I’m a baby at the time and he comes to you saying that your face is cracking yeah meaning that you’re aging yeah it was always when I was feeling good about my myself right that’s when it would that’s when the clips came so I I just remember like I don’t think I ever looked at myself the same after that which is so sad and and that’s it’s not the vanity of it because that’s who cares right at the end of the day we’re all aging it’s that’s just part of the deal but it it was just such a unnecessary comment to make me feel small mhm and here I am trying to find my way like any 20s something year old with these giant dreams of making my music and making my career and having this family and so I’m like oh I’m I’m I’m maybe I’m too old for him at 26 but it’s so interesting that he it I I don’t know where did they get this book like where do they get the book on the how too right I think it’s probably over time they’ve realized right so it’s like you said it was always when I was doing well and that’s why the clipping really hits me because when I think of the analogy you’re flying too high yeah yeah so he’s clipping your wh because he doesn’t want you to escape or to fly away and so Dr ke I’ve actually heard you say how much that is a defense mechanism and it’s actually forcing us to question ourselves and it’s called the ego shock so talk to us about the ego shock so so the idea is you have a you know you’re feeling pretty good about yourself here’s my story of myself I’m a 26y old good-looking country singer in La I’ve got this good-look guy family I’m feeling good and all of a sudden you’re an old bitty what yeah and and it’s ego shock is you it’s something that’s so out of the ordinary it’s a blow to your ego and you can’t process it you’re like and you get kind of dumbfounded like how do I processes I don’t know what to do cuz I’ve never heard this before and it gets to you because you have no defense against it and again this is part of that manipulation it’s very it just makes somebody easy to control it’s being abused it’s been you’re being separated and you’re cut away from your own source of strength your own source of security your own sour source of power and then you have to turn to him for the security and power and I mean like being completely honest I feel a lot of Shame with that too you know the Ridiculousness of vanity or you know the the when I came back from the gym and I was like you know so proud I might have a one pack I’m like yeah I’m getting strong and it was it was flipped on flipped on me you know and and the and the term bulking up like I can tell you I I think it took me up until last year to be willing to go into a gym and like go okay I’m going to try this again after that many years yeah yeah we got to slow down here holy smoke yeah that’s a that was a big clip so talk to actually through that so you go to the gym because he said these comments about you so maybe you’re spending more time your maybe I do more right like I’ll do more I’ll go to the gym and when I came back from the gym it was and he only call me by my last name uh he said ah Quail you’re woking up and it wasn’t like good job it wasn’t a positive right I know a lot in like in in strength training and and muscle builders that bulking up is like a positive this was not that and it it did exact it shook me yeah and I was like okay I can’t do this either and how long ago was that well I mean I was I mean 20 years almost 20 years ago the reason why I want you to ret this yeah and here’s the thing it’s so freaking normal and so I really want people to hear that tiny little story that was you go to the gym and that one comment and that one moment has haunted you for 20 years and only recently have you found courage to go maybe this is you know it’s just an idea a story that I’m telling myself it’s just not C it’s wild the potency that our words can have on others and the hooks and the barbs and like that that it you know whoever said you know sticks and stones will break our bones but words will never hurt us is the most it’s backwards because I’ve fallen out of trees I’ve fallen off horses you know I’m like ah get back on I can remember what I was wearing I can remember like the finite strangest little details of those moments cuz they are like tattooed in my mind it’s so fascinating and is that part of the ego shock then it shocks you so much like a re like a powerful trauma that will stay with you yes so shame is a term we use to mean like shame is I I’m a negative person I’m a bad person and when we feel shame there’s not much you can do about it like if you feel guilty like oh I did this bad thing you go I’m sorry I’m going to make it up to you and then guilt goes away but shame is like I’m a bad person how do I not be bad and so in Stephanie’s story she’s like well maybe I’ll go work out and then I’ll be better and then she works out and then just gets knifed but it’s subtle no one would see it it’s like being hit with a rubber hose you know it’s not leaving bloody marks but you felt it for 20 years yeah and so you get in the shame box and it’s very hard to get out of and and I and what I want to say is I’ve talked to so many many really successful women like Stephanie whove gone through this story that feel this shame and they still feel it and I’m like you shouldn’t yeah you were conned by somebody who was very high in status who was a professional at manipulating people it’s like buying a time share you don’t go I’m like you bought a time share well that guy’s been selling time shares a long time they’re very good at it don’t beat yourself up over it so that’s if I can say anything is don’t hate yourself if Rel like this just happens and it happens because these I bet if I met your guy I would have liked him I probably would have thought he was a cool guy and I probably would said what a cool guy right yep that’s what most people said that’s what I was going to say that’s why he had so many girlfriends because that’s what everyone thought yeah well and a lot of people because of uh oh yeah me being stable and and they were like well she wouldn’t be with a bad guy so we can trust him because of her which is probably exactly why he went after you because narcissist specifically people who are technically narcissists is exactly why he went after you because they’re looking for a status they can’t have themselves and so you gave him the credibility that he was a decent gu and this is a very common strategy you see it with more Psychopathic people you see it with charlatans they go into town and they’ll associate with a bunch of high status people so they get status themselves yeah so the clip number two that hit me really hard was the power Dynamic and you said the fact that he’s calling you little sis so already putting each other on a hierarchy from stage one and then that confusing part where he’s now all of a sudden one day he’s calling you little sis next day you’re his girlfriend yeah so that confusion I assume is part of the manipulation yes because when people are confused and don’t know what to do they look to you for a source of stability or support or Direction gives you power and you actually have a quote tell a girl she’s insecure and crazy enough times and she’ll probably start to believe you MH so even in these all these instances if even if you find the courage to speak up they start knocking you down bit by bit oh gosh yeah I had I remember I was perform I was doing a show and I remember one of my and I was wearing all gray which it’s very rare like I don’t even I don’t even think I own but I was wearing all gray and I remember my friend being like like what is going on like you’re you’re a you’re like a shell what is and and I you know and I had another friend who she was like your Stepford it’s like you’re a Stepford Wife cuz you were just like you were just so uh fine fine because I knew if I let down you know any guard it would be so revealing that I was far from fine and then how much do you also though not want to let your guard down because there’s part of you that’s protecting him in the hope that he’s going to change right oh I I remember countless conversations with my Dad I’m like no but you don’t understand you don’t understand dad you know and um yeah because when it was great it was really great it was you know I thought I had my my life my family my my whole you know my whole deal I didn’t question him as much as I questioned myself yeah big time it’s going to be impossible to bring your confidence and badass energy to your work your family and your friends when you’re constantly drained but by fine tuning your metabolic Health you can actually solve a lot of these problems and feel so much better and there’s no better tool to help you get there then Lumen with Lumen you can actually get real time insight and recommendations to optimize your metabolic health so if you want to take the next step into actually improving your health so that you can feel like a freaking confident badass then go to lumen.me and use coupon code n ybbs which is nurture your bad [ __ ] soul to get 15% off your Lumen right now take advantage because this is literally the lowest price they’ve ever been and it’s only for you guys that are listening and watching right now so go to Lumen spelled l m nme m and use coupon code nybb s at checkout to get your 15% off right now the store story that I hear a lot of people tell themselves is I got in a relationship with this charming narcissistic guy because I’m a bad person I’m insecure or I’m stupid and I stayed in it because I’m stupid and I have talked to enough incredibly successful people like both of you about this story and it’s never because you’re stupid it’s always be the people I see stuck in these relationships are like I’m a good person who’s committed to making this work I’m conscientious and I want to make it so the people that I see get hurt are often the people who are the best people who are trying their best to make a relationship work and if you were a shallow flaky narcissist you would have been like yeah I’m over this I’m going to go date the pool boy right and take a selfie right and that’s what happens so it’s not it’s not that bad people are the ones in this it’s the opposite it’s like the good people and then they get stuck trying to make something good that can ever be made good because you think I can because I’ve always made stuff good I’m going to make this I’m like dude you’re not making this and and that is my you know I’m a I’m a like I’m a fixer I’m like well I you know okay I can I’ll get better and then we’ll get better right from like you you name it like oh okay I need to do this better I need to do this better you know whatever it was I kept on yeah just trying unfortunately talking about trying clip number number three is the frequent flirtation and when you said I just kept trying you have a story in your book where um he’s flirting with a waitress or you have this hunch and she’s really pretty and you are dying to pee yes I had to go so bad but I was not getting up for that table I’m like oh hell no but isn’t that interesting how all we send something isn’t right and so we just try harder we don’t go hang on a minute this is extremely inappropriate for you to be acting like this I’m your girlfriend she’s a stranger and so if you’re going to be looking at her like that I’m going to excuse myself from the table right what like like so many things I would say now that would my you know sweet younger self that was just sure she was the problem there’s just no chance now but making you think though am I good enough oh yeah and and I mean there there was kind of a look to these women that he was you know that I I you know there were some there were some Trends you know you spotted them yeah I mean it was kind of everything I wasn’t you know I’m a petite not very tall sometimes lean depending upon how much pizza I’ve had and sometimes not uh you know they were very lean very uh beautiful women and you know it was uh it was it was very obvious and they would you know that I was it was some like do they not see me sitting right here do I have on invisible cloak again you know this is so freaking wrong I just want to say that it’s just wrong well we’re on the other side now and hopefully sharing it will but that idea God it really hit me just now that you said it the fact that not only did you not feel seen by him but his actions made you not feel seen by other people around you oh yeah so because in all honesty why would they assume you’re his girlfriend if he’s flirting with them why wouldn’t he think oh it’s a friend or a sister right exactly but because of his acts they now don’t see you right so his manipulation is actually not just isolating you just you and him but it’s actually making other people see you in a different light what is that like talk us through like the jealousy and the feeling invisible why that’s so powerful well there’s a a term we use called ostracism which is like imagine if the three of us are having a conversation and you guys just started talking to each other and just ignored me for the next 20 minutes you’re being very nice and not doing I’d all of a sudden start being cool and then I’d start feeling insecure and then I’d be like what’s going on and then I’d start going God did I do something wrong and I’d walk out here and going what did I do I really don’t like myself and I it’s very easy to do this to people were very sensitive to this we might not know it but we’re very sensitive to it so if we’re in that situ I mean Stephanie was being ostracized she was being ignored and so when she was being ignored the person’s like why is he ignoring her well couldn’t be her couldn’t be his girlfriend his wife must be some not that important and then you internalize that and it feels terrible but you’re telling yourself a story that I’m responsible for this relationship so if I’m being ignored what should I be doing right what should I do more of to maybe I could be better looking maybe I could put on a show maybe I can draw attention get a little taller a little taller you go to the gym to try and get that one pack and then he mocks you for it right yeah so even when you try he then takes the the sledgehammer you are you’re you’re you got call later and you’re being broken down over time systematically yeah yeah this is really dark stuff to do to people yeah and it and you don’t see it from the outside because it’s slow and it’s these little knife Jabs that no one will see but over time you just break and break and break and maybe people who loved you knew you well could see it but even you couldn’t see it that well cuz it was never just in your face it’s very it’s Insidious is the word I was looking for and that’s I mean I think what’s so special about this conversation is that you know I’m on the other side I’ve done the healing and the work to understand it it’s it’s the healing is far from over in the learning and there’s so much more like it’s like what did you say you’re welcome to level one like oh great but what’s exciting about it is I feel the more information that people have access to the more understanding of the different actions and the identifiers then we’re helping others and it’s not just you know you’re out there in the wind like good luck yeah I mean I’ve I haven’t seen anything erode a woman’s confidence more than being with a toxic partner and the analogy I always have in my head is that it’s like water dripping on a rock right water in and of itself you’re drinking it it you need it for to literally live it is for survival and it’s soft it’s clean it can warm you up it can call you down and yet if this one little drop on a rock year after year have you seen what happens to the rock it changes its shape and so when you think about what that does to a person’s personality to a person’s character to their self-esteem it’s like no wonder you said right 20 years that now you’re finally like do I go back to the gym again like for that all of that unwiring that you’ve had to do stems from having to recognize that this relationship exists and then you do the work and when I hear about your career Stephanie that it was after you left that you then really started writing and really like Bing into your music that’s what comes from leaving a toxic relationship is going back to what’s important where do you build your confidence where are you where’s your love and passion and we don’t do that when we’re in them and now your entire book is written about all the things that happened but you don’t realize it so I’m always thinking like I not always but when I was reading your B I was thinking what happened if it didn’t pass away well I’ve thought I mean I’ve thought about that a lot right I I don’t think I would be here I don’t think I would have survived because you would have taken your own life or you think that I don’t know I just I think it was a very um it would I don’t think I would have been around and I I’ve had conversations with those that are leaving uh very toxic relationships and they’ve you know made the comment like you’re so lucky you don’t have to still you know see this person as I have to go give my kids to you know uh this narcissistic partner and and I like I I’m not going to even touch that I would do anything for Eden to have her dad um and it’s just I don’t know how I would have survived the Fallout because it did seem like everything was kind of coming to a head m and I think that’s why also I didn’t believe he like I didn’t believe the FAA report for so long because I never saw I never saw his body um I wasn’t sure if the plane had been tampered I just was so mixed up in all these lies that I was like what’s even true what’s even true with anything now all of that’s very confirmed and I’ve you know gone and uh got got all the information so all of that was just my mind trying to handle the layers of trauma and try to understand like how did this happen well yeah I mean God you don’t even know what your real reality is exactly that was a lot more dangerous than you thought and you’re lucky to be alive that was what I thought like I I think you still didn’t really grasp how maybe dangerous that situation was because there was more you going into it in the book about like there’s like these dodgy cars that are pulling up outside your house strange like it just wasn’t there was nothing about any of it that was just straightforward right so I think you know when I when I go back to the idea of trusting someone you know like that that is the most coveted part of any relationship so to have that so dismantled and and then then the Fallout hit both ways so as I’m not trusting anyone outside of like you know my couple friends and my parents my family you know there are things that are being discovered about him that now is being questioned of my character integrity you know was she in on any of his Shenanigans so so a lot of people looked at me like well maybe she wasn’t as trustworthy as we thought and that was deafening you know because I’m going wait a second I’m this is the guy I thought I was going to marry and have my whole life with and everything is a lie so how do I and then the questioning that was just it was I really probably should have just gone to Montana and take a little time out I should have just gone home and taken a little time out but I didn’t do that I just powered I think I was back at work within like a week or two like I just went hard into I’m over it I’ll get over it and that’s just what avoiding well it’s avoiding but you’re doing you know when you have a real skill that you’re passionate of and you’re getting positive feedback for it and you’re helping people it makes sense to like well I got all this energy if I put it into my work good things will happen control that at least I can control it but you didn’t and I’m not saying this any negative way but when you’re doing that you’re not spending a lot of time like going through the pain and figuring out what happened you can build a little bit of a shell around yourself and make it hey I kind of got this figured out except for those few moments before bed yeah and uh and then as you ended up in kind of the same place again I like dealing with double grief right because it’s like you still lost him I mean the oh completely to have to grieve losing someone that you’re that close to obviously you’re very close to Eden so that being her father and then grieving the relationship you thought you had it’s like what one type of grief is bloody hard enough let alone the two and to that you know she had been such a part of my life my daily life the night of the pl crash I had to call her mom and she had to come get her kid and I had to get you know like I mean she’s not mine to give but I had to like you know and that was the last night she was in you know in my house with me our house and that so I thought about that too that I didn’t really grieve that either and so that for those that feel like they can’t and feel like they’re drowning or in quicksand like I’m proof that you can get out and I might not have got out of the first one because he did die but the second one you know I was able to find my way out and I didn’t have the book so I would have done it much faster Keith but the other thing I was going to say is Stephanie’s stories about relationships that same experience happens with children with narcissistic parents that they kind of grow up and that there’s that double grief where they go my goodness my childhood was a fraud but I liked it in some ways it was important but I like so this kind of sense of of what was real and what wasn’t real and I it’s something common not just to dating people in narcissistic but also being parented by people like that yeah so true so true um okay you Al you list in your book um ways that they take your power back and so i’ just love to go through a little a few of them and I really want to um there’s one that really hit me so number one is we’re convinced to ignore our gut and that I assume is so that you don’t trust yourself and that you trust them instead um we’re convinced we’re overreacting oh yeah so talk to me about that one well this is where crazy is such a hot button right is that you know intuition my gut knew what was every time my gut was like hey my head would turn a little you know and I would I would approach carefully um that conversation and trying to understand like wait that doesn’t make sense or you said you were here but then you said you know like it doesn’t add up now when something doesn’t add up I don’t I’m done I I don’t I I do not need to be the investigator that I have been in the past which I became after his after his death I became like I had to know everything to like look like a investigator get it but but my intuition and gut felt it and then as you know I got dumbed down and my light got dimmed and told I was insecure and crazy it just got quieter and then afterward of course it was like a a roar you know it was like now I’m like come on and uh it was just uh it was just really like anytime I hear the word crazy if someone is describing another person I’m like hold on what do you mean you know it’s one when someone ah you’re acting crazy but when you’re saying no you are crazy it was never like you’re acting it was always you know that that that the words are just very potent and it just really infuriates me that courageously confronting with kindness right we don’t have to be rude about it there’s a way to do it and address it can be just squashed and oh you’re overreacting you’re crazy you’re insecure you’re jealous you’re envious you’re this I mean so many descriptors that just stop you from being able to share what you’re feeling and how do you then now courageously confront it well I fortunately don’t have any of those people in my life anymore love I have um yeah I uh clean up on aisle Quail but I will but I will say people that you said it earlier your last name’s Quail CLE clean up on a quail so uh what I do find is with uh people in business like my my my circle of of friends and family and and and just people who have influence over my life is small and uh and there’s just this great beautiful debate that happens with courageous confrontation and kindness and conversation so there’s accountability within that for me a th% no question but those that will just try to like you know mess with you I I just have zero tolerance I don’t and I won’t even waste the time where I would you know I don’t need to teach people in those moments of where it’s not a healthy conversation I just walk and that’s a that’s a new world for me because especially you know in the entertainment business there’s a lot of shenanigans and uh I I you know I uh I’ll allow someone the opportunity to try to um come come to their honesty but when I them in you know ridiculous dishonest behavior I’m just cutbait nice clean answer I like that that’s exactly what you do just cut bait cut bait um all right so another way that they take your power is the blame shift so talk to me about the blame shift so imagine narcissistic mind telling yourself a story I’m an awesome person I hang out with awesome people the things I do are awesome they succeed because I’m a success well when you go through life and things don’t succeed because you’re not a success or the people you’re with aren’t awesome that’s not part of your story so you have to change the story so things aren’t successful well that’s not my fault Stephanie why did you do that you know why did you wreck that thing I have a beautiful girlfriend but why are you bulking up because that’s taking away from me I’m the kind of person who has to be so the story you’re telling yourself is I always win I’m always right I’m important special and good-look and anytime that doesn’t work I got to point at you or you or you or something else God the situation the universe yeah that’s the problem it’s never me because that’s not part of my story and so people are narcissistic will kind of live like this and if you’re in their life in their Shadow your job is either to tell them they’re great to be armed so they look great or to take the blame when they fail so they can feel good about themselves and this I assume is part of the problem when if you I say problem but obviously it can be beautiful but when you’re with someone that you could really admire so you admire them right if they’re a narcissist and they’re say well it’s not my fault then you go oh well I take their word for truth I admire their their thoughts and opinions so if they’re saying it’s me then maybe it is me and that’s a re reasonable thing to think from somebody you love respect and seems like a very high status person it’s not unreasonable to think you’re the problem imagine your Guru you know you’re the it must be the problem yeah so so fascinating isn’t it yeah but I remember you sharing that like narcissists aren’t the ones that are like hey am am I a narcissist like narcissists aren like hey am I you know they’re not it’s the second you’re asking if you’re a narcissist it means that you’re not because you care enough Al I’ll tell you the only time I have people talk to me about their own narcissism it’s it’s often men that look around their life and they see guys that are have happy healthy marriages and they don’t and they know wow they’re they know they’re missing something and you can’t get that status like you can’t fake that status of having a good marriage right so you mean a guy with a good family Good Wife I I respect that guy and I don’t respect a narcissist for you know manipulating somebody’s so they realize that’s the only time I’ve had people come up to me and go ah maybe I got something yeah maybe I need to do a lot of work on myself that’s interesting usually not and so the final one is that we make excuses for them and so when they have bad behavior where maybe they just had a bad day I’m not going to tell my friends because it was just this one time that they were in this bad mood and so I believe we called that cognitive dissonance so if you don’t mind breaking down what cognitive dissonance is yeah so I was telling you the narcissist is telling the story in this case he that he’s wonderful and perfect that’s his story and in this in this same relationship maybe somebody like Stephanie’s telling a story that I’m in a good relationship with a positive person and my story is this is going to work and it’s a good stable relationship that’s going to work that’s my story so what happens is I see something that’s out of line that’s dissonant that’s not consistent with that story oh my partner was straddling the the girl in Cabo or something you’re like well that’s not consistent with my story oh what that leads is a state of cognitive dissonance I have a a loving partner he’s in this weird act with the gallon Cabo those things don’t go together so how do I resolve that well I could say my partner’s a bad person but then I’ve got to rechange my whole story so I go well maybe he’s a good person so this must have been a good thing how could that have been a good thing how could this well maybe that girl was suffering that woman was suffering he was helping her right maybe she’s insecure and he was making her feel better maybe he didn’t want to reject her because he didn’t want her to feel bad maybe he’s French and this is just how French people are maybe he’s he’s European this is just a European greeting you know how those Europeans are so you tell a story and that story allows you to resolve your cognitive dissonance you go oh I guess this is okay you kind of sweep it under the rug and you can go on that’s a great way of breaking it down what’s interesting as humans we don’t like you said we don’t change our story we just go how do I make sure that this fits right right because we want a consistent world we want to wake up and go this is my world this is my story it makes sense it’s consistent I can predict the future if it wasn’t like that every day would be like what’s going to happen it’s the end of the world so we have to live like this but when you end up in a bad situation you end up being trapped by yourself because you it’s hard for you to talk yourself out of it do you think that that’s why him being a father to a daughter is one of the things that kind of almost like made you stay in the sense of like the cognitive what he’s a wonderful guy like he he treats women beautifully I’ve seen him with his daughter he would never treat me badly so it maybe so that cognitive distance is like again when I think about his daughter and yeah how much you you said the word is a porn in his you know story I just loved her so much from moment one that’s I am sure that I overrode a lot because of his father yeah uh his the way he was as a father and um yeah I’m I’m so protective of that right I was so protective that I made a lot of excuses for him and I made a lot of excuses for the second one you know and and he was much more Pomp and air with his behavior and um much more overtly arrogant like where it kind of was like oh but then I’d be like oh no no really he’s not this bad would you actually say those words he’s not this bad yeah yes yeah it’s okay yeah I sure did I sure did what’s interesting is I wonder if you would have fallen for him if you hadn’t have had the experience beforehand right what was the words that you just you said earlier that he said to you oh I’m going to teach you that you can trust men again I’m going to teach you that you can TR TR that’s cuz here’s the thing I’m show you that you can trust men again teach you show you yeah if someone’s genuine it’s like oh that’s very sweet like thank you I you can show me yeah but when like there’s no way of even knowing that that one line is a manipulative and where my heart always breaks when I do these types of interviews is like I don’t want to just someone’s lying so if someone comes to you and says like if a good human comes to you and says I’m going to show you what that you can really trust man again like and they’re actually a good human that carries a lot away but you put those words in a narcissist’s mouth and now it’s a weapon and here’s what’s so interesting too when I first started dating my husband we’ve been married now almost N9 years and I just remember he never mentioned a word about what he was going to do he just showed me so do you actually think that is a sign then if someone’s talking about it that usually it’s them grooming you well I’ll let you take that one I don’t know if usually but I generally when men are talking a game I I usually like people who act more than talk and just as a guy like the joke is if you sit around a room with five guys and everyone’s real high status and one guy goes I’m the alpha male you know who’s not the alha male 100% cuz what happens you get five really successful guys and nobody will brag ever and sometimes you have to go around and say get who people are because guys will never do that cuz who does that right you know it’s like I mean it’s weird tangent women always why do guys always have pictures with fish and dating apps my students guys are always holding fish fish fish they’re always holding pictures and fish this is in Georgia maybe not La guys are always holding pictures of fish oh ones they’ve caught not like a goldfish yeah like when they’ve caught when they’ve caught gold no no sorry that would be amazing the Britain that’s the British we’re talking like Montana Georgia I saw that would be the one to swipe on would be the guy with the Goldfish that’s a that’s a caregiver actually that’s amazing but but I asked women or why do guys do this I said what kind of guy takes a picture of him s the only I mean guys don’t take pictures of themselves unless they catch a fish they want a picture of the fish unless they’re kind of narcissistic cuz most men aren’t waking up going like check me God I look good today boom you know they’re like check out this trout and so but it’s hard but so when I you know you know see a guy who’s got a lot of photos himself or something then I’d be a little more nervous it’s that self-promotion and again in La that’s normal and celebrity world that’s normal but for most the world guys aren’t okay I want to go to next so again the way that you’ve written this book is really from the start all the way to the end so I’m going to go through a few more and you talk about the truths and I really found this powerful you talk about their truth my truth no truth and then the truth and so you say his truth a reality very different from mine my truth a world that once felt safe and loving now turned hostile no truth nothing makes sense and then the truth waking up and recognizing and the people who are truly on my side how do people come to that truth quicker gosh well I think specifically because of the grief part of death The Grieving part of actually losing someone and that also a lot of people grieve losing a person in a relationship as well so but I’m speaking specifically to um losing someone like this uh I think you have to get support immediately I I think that I I didn’t I waited I waited a couple of years before I got the grief counseling just to understand the Dynamics of grief which are that’s an adventure in itself uh and and the thing about grief that I’ve that I learned through the process is you can’t outrun it it will find you and it will keep finding you until you just go hey grief all right we’re in this together and it’s like you almost become friends and it’s this this friendship you didn’t really want but now you have and so grief and I got really familiar when we finally got familiar but I just think there’s access like never before to support an actual wisdom and expertise that I think that’s how you truncate is you don’t you don’t wait to do the work there’s no go around I never gave the the trauma the credit until I read and wrote the book I was writing the book and that’s when I realized how traumatic it was I think I had just because I just pushed through I never took the time to really look at the truth and look at how many people left my life so many friends especially after he died gone because they knew and they didn’t tell me the truth you know I I think about that often I get asked so if you knew that someone was doing something would you tell the person I would I would because no one told me and I would risk a friendship over that I would be like you know what I’m going to tell you the thing that no one else has the courage to tell you your person is in a different relationship while you’re in a relationship you know I I didn’t have that so I would say Seek the information so many women don’t seek help immediately right like you said it took you a few years and I’m always thinking what is it that holds us back so you mentioned shame earlier right the shame it and then yeah like what else are the things like imagine someone’s listening right now and they’re stuck in this they’re embarrassed they feel the shame maybe some people in their family love them they don’t realize the truth right like make it the worst possible scenario how the hell do you start to reach out to people and what is the thing that keeps stopping us because I think think you’re right I think that once you start to seek the help genuinely whether it’s a professional like yourself Keith or somebody else or friends or parents what holds us back because yeah I’m always trying to figure out how to bring that like the healing process I get guess there’s no like there’s no hack to the healing right but if you didn’t ask for help I don’t know if you’d be sitting here today with a book having such Clarity so how do we help can I touch on that quick but then I think you have to if you can but I just want to say this I had friends and family that tried and they said a lot of the right things right some things that Keith has said to me but hearing it from Keith when you get it from someone who knows has the research has the data can say hard stop this is what it is I think that’s a differentiating factor at least it was for me because it it brings such Clarity and closure that friends and family can sometimes project their own experiences right like I love my dad love him he was like why would you ever write this book why would you ever go back and I was like I have to go back so I can be free I want freedom so I would I I guess my my urge is get get to the people get to the ones that have the the expertise can I ask you do you also think partly um is because that Keith you didn’t know him or you didn’t know your ex and your because when someone knows them to your point it’s no no no you don’t quite understand but when it’s a complete stranger there’s almost no arguing like K’s just taking what you say for fact and then gives you his thoughts and opinions based on the data that you’ve given him big part of it versus his maybe emotional connection he may have had with them right yeah well that’s true I do think family is really important I think friends are really important um my sense is that we underestimate how important are our social relationships are to keeping our sense of reality stable and so having people you’ve known along time that are friends family is important even if they can’t tell you anything even if they just make you some soup you know I think just having that connection’s really good I think finding expertise is obviously really important it’s also hard to do yeah you know I I’m a uh I work in a psychology department when I have issues I can go down to the clinical floor knock on doors and talk to my friends you know that’s not available to a lot of people and there are a lot of experts who aren’t experts so it’s It’s Tricky right I also do think how much age plays into it and maybe I’m just speaking for my own personal experience but like when I was younger I felt like everything meant something about me but kind of now I don’t like I disconnect myself from the situation in essence and just take the situation for what it is and so you know you said earlier in your 20s you may not have said anything but now in your is you’re like come on you know I’m like I’m like ferocious for strangers yeah so it’s like what is it is it the fact that we have the knowledge is it that we’ve built our confidence is it the fact that we’ve been through the [ __ ] and I’m like I’m never going to go back there so that means me standing up for myself or looking stupid or whatever in front of people I don’t care because I’m going to protect myself like or do you think it’s everything combined I think it’s all those things I mean you’re young you’re you’re less experienced you’re also much more uh concerned about what people think of you socially you know when I was a teenager you’re like now I’m like I just don’t want to get fired you know my wife doesn’t leave me I don’t get fired I’m okay I other than that I don’t care so part of that and then and you know it’s like love you get re you know you get your heartbroken three or four times by number five you’re like well this is how it’s just kind of you get used to it a little more so the pain doesn’t hurt as much because it’s the fifth or sixth time we’ve had it right um yes growing up it’s nice to grow up in a lot of ways it makes things easier even we’re more tired and our bones hurt sometimes I’m so excited for now I I I said this to David I I say it to him often he finally finished the book by the way my husband and I I just said to him I was like you know for the last 10 years you’ve had you know you’ve been with me as this person in progress right in this healing I don’t even know journey and now like I’m getting the best of me for the first time since I was you know a wide-eyed didn’t care teenager that just chased my dreams and lived life with that Curiosity and that just the the the trusting and just the joy and I feel like now I I get her back but with the wisdom and the healing and all the good stuff so now I’m like oh what’s this G to feel like who what this is kind of fun like like table for one yes please you know and they’re like oh you’re sitting alone I’m like heck yeah I’m my best company I’m not going to just waste it with anyone to fill the space and I think that’s one of the things that comes with that just like I am good with me we all know how important it is to be eating healthy so you can actually set yourself up for kickass energy and badass confidence but your box makes it so easy to eat better with the best meat and seafood on the planet butcher box is a premium meat subscription service that delivers highquality Meats and Seafood directly to your door I’m literally obsessed with them guys and I eat their products every single day so sign up for butcherbox today by going to butcherbox.com nbbs and use coupon code nbbs which is nurture your bad [ __ ] s at checkout and you can enjoy the choice of bone and chicken thighs top sirloin or salmon for absolutely free in every single box for an entire year plus you get $20 off again that’s butcherbox.com slny ybbs and use the code nbbs during checkout I want to just touch on the coping strategies that you talk about in your book that we uh use a lot in order to either not address it or really acknowledge maybe the impact that it’s had on us and so you list out three in your book that I’d like to go over so number one is we distract ourselves with our professional lives o yeah I did that I did that well and big I I mean I I’m really grateful to my boss at the time because they were they were so kind to me because I was like no no I’m fine and they’re like we don’t think you’re fine like you’re crying and you’re like no fine you know and I just powered empowered empowered and I just you know I didn’t I didn’t know any other way what would you do differently now then gosh I would have just said I’m just taking a beat how long can I be away from work without losing my job yeah and that that’s probably what it would have been that’s actually a really powerful question to even talk to your manager or your boss about like how long can I be here before is there a window right I actually really like that like I think that and and honestly I just didn’t I didn’t know I didn’t know what to do you know it was just kind of like minute by minute it it was there wasn’t a lot of future thinking and it’s it’s such a it’s such an easy cop out right oh I’ve got to work what come home for Christmas oh no I got to work is better than drinking yeah I mean you have all this emotion and this self-reflective thought and you have to escape that got like escaping the self how do I get rid of the self and working is a way to do it and that is at least pro-social and you’re doing some positive stuff the other way people do it is they go drink they binge eat they obsessively exercise and that’s a totally normal way because you’re trying to escape this pain you know you just don’t you want to turn yourself off and working is a way to turn yourself off that’s honestly maybe one of the better or healthier ways to do it than just a full flame out yeah you know yeah it never dawned on me but um I interviewed melb Scary Spice from the Spice Girls and she confessed that she was in a 10-year abusive relationship where he stole all her money I mean it was horrific and the thing that she’s fighting for are laws in England where there’s safe places for women to go after work cuz the one thing that she said is work was my safe space right when I would go home is when the danger would start so actually as an organization we need to have places where if someone is staying late that’s actually a first like consistently all the time and they happily want to stay late it’s like that could actually be a sign that they’re fearful of going home so having places that they can go to and it never Dawns on me that people a would use work as the distraction which I get but also just as their safe space so they pour themselves into their career they don’t have to focus on their family and two things one I’d never thought about that but that’s when we developed battered women shelters back I guess 60s or 70s the reason for that was that safe space to keep people women away from the home typically women secondly Scary Spice or whoever probably very successful smart talented woman in one of these relationship that’s the point I always try to make is this happens to very very successful people and when people talk to me they go I must have been a loser because of this I’m like Scary Spice isn’t a loser Stephanie Quail is not a loser this stuff just happens and it happens to the best of us and that I think Bas that’s exactly what she said she’s like in fact I was famous I was wealthy and so I was the thing that made him give the credibility to that he was a good guy and it was over the 10 years that he was slowly taking money out of her bank account he’s like I’m better than at money than you are no no no you’re busy I’ll take it off your play so these tiny little chips exactly to the point it was something like she had made something like $84 million in her career when she ended up divorcing him cuz she finally left she had less than $3,000 in her bank account and she was living with her mom while she’s doing concerts of wemble as as the Spice Girl where they did the reunion tour like insane insane so for anyone listening to your point it’s like when it can happen to amazing women like you if anything like maybe we can just switch the message and be like if you’re with a narcissist it means that you’re amazing and like just that’s not a bad message because you had enough status that this person wanted you around to use as a prop or as a source of esteem this guy Paulo he lived in the air airplane terminal right airplane hanger airplane hanger how cool is that and he and he had a plane that maybe wasn’t his but it seemed like his and that’s pretty cool so they have a lot of these attractive qualities you’re not falling for Psychopathic losers you’re falling for people who have seem to have high status and value and they’re very attractive when you start to date and you assume it’s going to turn into something warm and caring and nurturing and it just never happens yeah yeah I mean I’m 44 and so growing up I was basically Bally taught the people to be careful of are the people that are like drooling in the corner with a hood up that look super freaking suspicious but the nice Charming polite person is the person you trust and so when you think about how we end up falling the grandiose narcissist that is the charismatic that is that just sweeps people away it’s like I get it and this there’s I really want to uh uh rip down the shame that goes behind it and I think your guys’ work is exactly that and I love this tag team because of the story and the Tactical and knowing that he was Charming of course he was the the the evidence is in the fact that he had so many different women around him you know the Paulo um and then the cycle of it right the fact that look just because you recognize it in one person and you end up leaving it doesn’t mean that it’s not going to happen again and I think that that may be in fact I’d love for you to talk to us how much did you almost beat yourself up after that you went back to the same type of relationship just a different guy oh yeah when you cuz people you should have known better oh yeah of course I mean I I was the consistent I was the common denominator and amidst that second toxic romantic relationship I was also in a toxic business relationship so I was getting it from all sides just going like where do I find my footing and that was one of my darkest moments was when I learned of uh the the prince in the book the second toxic relationship where I found out that he was cheating on me and it just sent me over the edge and that’s when I drank a handle of vodka and I called and I just said to him I’m like I’m I’m I’m clearly the problem because I chose you like I chose this again like what is wrong with me that here I am again being treated like this and that’s that was my most I mean that was probably the most heartbreaking part to write but I wanted to write it because I know a lot of people can probably relate to that feeling of just the pain being so great you just want the hurt to stop and I’m I’m very grateful to still be here you even said it wasn’t that you wanted to take your life you just wanted the pain to stop I just wanted the I just wanted to like the relief and I it was you know and it wasn’t until the next day that you know you learn about who’s come to your house and it’s you know like for the wellness check in all these things and that was like whoa that it it became very real do you want to explain in that for people yeah so I was so I I learned that uh through one of my friends that um my boyfriend had been cheating on me and uh so I remember calling my mom uh my stepmom Loretta from from driving home and I was living outside of Nashville at the time so I had about a 20 minute drive or so and I called her and I was like I’m gonna drive off the road and so she just stayed on the phone with me stayed on the phone with me and then I got home and the lady I was living with one of my dear friends she was out of town so it was it was I was alone so I didn’t I I was very conscientious like this isn’t my home and but I wasn’t conscientious because I put the whole thing in play anyhow went and got a handle of vodka called him drank it I don’t know if I drank it while I just remember drinking an entire handle and uh one of my friends came with the suicide prevention like that do the wellness checks from Vanderbilt and uh so I wasn’t a I was just very drunk poor thing you know uh and so they didn’t need to take me in or anything like that and so the next morning I remember going down to the kitchen to like you know make breakfast and they’d move the knives and that just like that hit so different so different why do you think that I think it made it real that they had that fear right because again I wasn’t in taking my life I was in I have to stop the pain I have to stop the pain I cannot take one more thing but they were like she’s going to take her life we have to hide anything that could I know a lot of women makes me sad oh God it makes me so sad and this is why I do a lot of these interviews is because the amount of women I was telling you guys before we started rolling the amount of women that come up to me on the street and say to me you’ve saved my life like that [ __ ] carries weight and then when I think there was actually one woman that said actually I’ve got four children so you didn’t just save my life you saved five of us and then when you think about their kids and their kids talk about you know your book how many people are going to be reading it to then say the lives but like how many people do turn to yeah I’m going to take my life just to end the pain yeah and that’s one of the things with the book too it’s like let’s get you two resources because uh you know I I’m I’m not an expert I am only an expert in my story and an authority in my story I’ve got like degrees in narcissistic boyfriends but um laugh uncomfortably uh but yeah I you know I think uh you know when I’ve I’ve worked with um and talked with some different uh prevention groups and they do say a lot of times the pain is is the conversation the hurt is the conversation and um yeah I I was kind of going back to then something we’d said earlier is like you know how do you seek help because I think that if you’re able to seek help immediately and again I’m not a professional at all but just thinking through if you can seek the help early yeah then hopefully you you don’t get to that point yeah and you recognize it’s the pain that you’re looking to stop not necessarily your life again I’m not an expert but like my heart just bleeds and I’m always trying to grasp it well that’s I mean that’s I think you know I remember you know in high school you know Montana has one of the highest rates of suicide oh God not really and uh and in the United States and I remember in high school it being like almost it was happening all the time and I remember the tone of it always being that’s so selfish do you remember this and so so this is like you know uh 90s like 90 like in the 90s before 2000s or so and what if anything I would just share for anyone is that the person that’s going through it it like the pain I can’t describe it like it was it was was unbearable but in that moment all I could do was my version of survival and that’s was numbing myself to a point of taking the pain away that was very dangerous very dangerous I say a lot I’m not a suicide researcher but from what I know talking to people in the in the field people commit suicide not to hurt other people it’s it’s because they feel their life is their pain is too much or they feel they’re bringing people down they feel you know they failed at work and they’re bringing their family down or so a lot of times it’s done because they feel they’re they’re bringing negative value yeah to to the world oh that’s heartbreaking okay well thankfully you were able to yeah girl and I’m still here um I want to talk about now how we can start to live again and love again because that’s such a beautiful way that you guys really do kind of you know talk through and that it there is that hope and I think hope can be so freaking powerful um so you say in order to be begin to live again and love again um you need to be open to new possibilities you need to resist the old patterns is number two so talk to me about resisting old patterns what patterns did you have that maybe someone listening might be able to recognize oh my God yes I’m in that pattern because you’ve clearly been able to break the cycles and patterns in order to find somebody and be happily married now for nine years yeah I absolutely recognized to myself that I was easily emotionally manipulated so I saw that through uh relationships in both business and um romantic relationships that like using a loved one right like a daughter or in the business case uh someone had lost their child uh the Marine in Afghanistan yeah and recognizing that because I want to help people and serve people and be of service that that was a a a a mechanism that was manipulated by but only I could allow it right so that was something that I really had to identify and start drawing my hard lines and with that people leave because once they can’t manipulate you and whatever way they want to they’re like well you’re of no use to me anymore goodbye and it can be a little it can be jolting right uh also my intuition really listening and and trusting it and that if something was off it was off and and just allowing it to be that be enough uh also really going back to you know what I said about David I I let people show I I I don’t really take people at their word as much as I take them at their actions their actions and their and how they just are you know like you said in a room full of people like how’s how are people treating people right and when people show us who they are let’s believe them mhm I putting like a version you know and that’s one of the things I say I’m like I’m such a potentialize you know I want to like I see the greatness in someone in my mind that I’ve created and I’m like imagine if they were totally different this is part of the problem though when everyone Danes right like they got such great potential oh my gosh no how are they right now how are they right now and so those little you know those little adjustments have been really uh eye opening how are you able to work through that because I think with Keith a lot of people find it hard to acknowledge like you’ve really that was really powerful that you were able to acknowledge that you’re part in it oh yeah how how do we start like let’s say someone said no it wasn’t me no nothing yeah like and they’re not question because then you’re not going to be able to break the cycle and I think what’s powerful is that you broke that cycle you have to tell the story somehow that you’re not responsible for what happened but you’re respon you have to respond to what happened in a positive way going forward so you’re not responsible but you need to respond positively and the way you do that is say what was I doing that led me to this and what could I change up right so one thing that Stephanie mentioned is very common is why I fall for people very quickly who are sort of attractive and charming and have big personalities and who doesn’t but if you find it happening very quickly maybe slow it down that’s some times useful another thing that you sort of mentioned is watch how people act watch how they treat everybody not how they treat you because if you know you’re attractive woman and people are trying to be Charming that’s love bombing or whatever that’s one thing watch how they treat the staff watch how they treat the Uber drive or watch shall they you know treat other people that don’t offer them any anything in terms of ego or status right are they manipulative are they controlling are they dismissive or do they care about people they try to lift people up yeah and so look for those kind of things and then look at history because because there’s that yeah because I say narcissist or psychop it’s like a it’s like a hurricane or like a tornado went through town you can just see this path of destruction in their life people they wrecked they wrecked they wrecked they’re not going to tell that to you but they will have that because you’re never the first well maybe you’re the first victim but very rarely you’re the first victim and you know in your story you end up talking to a bunch of people and that’s very common so look at look at somebody’s history look at their dating resume to the extent you can do that and when they tell you oh yeah every woman I dated was crazy Bing Bong yeah I just really that word tell you it it it was so weaponized the word crazy yeah yeah and in country music we use that word all the time like you know like yeah that’s that yeah but so it’s it’s you know but now I kind of have I think I went full P pendulum you know like when my sweet husband was like I was like listen don’t ever call me you can call me anything just don’t call me crazy he was like okay lady but I think I think that what’s powerful though is that he’s taking you for you right it’s like when someone can look and accept your history and embrace it and know that that’s part of you like I think that that’s you know if we’re going to go back to the signs like that’s just a sign that you got a good person there they’re not judging you they’re not trying to shame you for your past right um and that can feel very supportive and feel safe yeah and not only do they accept you but they see you maybe better than you see yourself and if you can find someone that sees those things in you that are are you but you don’t even see them and they bring out the best in you it can be like the opposite of a narcissistic relationship it’s like a both people sometimes I it is a little annoying when my husband sees something in me that he’s like did you notice you just did that and I was like God damn it how did you know this before me um I’m just joking but there are but there are certain action traits like um not to derail the conversation but my husband when I clean a lot he’s like you’re anxious what’s wrong and I didn’t realize oh yeah and so he would be able to so I was like how do you predicting because I don’t predict baby I just see that you clean and so he noticed my behavior quicker than I did my husband notices that too like with different you know things about me but does he say you’re crazy you’re cleaning because or say hey what going on better I would yeah that’s the right answer yes exactly but when again when someone that is is interesting that a third party can see you better than sometimes you can see yourself and I think that’s partly why we get trapped in these types of Dynamics because we’ve telling I me going back to what you said earlier ke like we’re telling ourselves a story and that story we just confirm it to make our areas you know our lives seem safe yeah okay so that is resist old patterns thank you for addressing that and then you it say yes to what’s best how do you know what’s best well I think self-awareness is a big big part of it for me because I can see like if someone’s like I’m like I don’t think I want to be in this conversation anymore or do that that’s I think that self-awareness is just but that’s that’s something I’ve been working on like that takes a lot of discipline to be a in it all the time especially I don’t know if you find with them in friendships as well especially when it’s a group of girls so so recently I’ve started to feel like a little weirdness in in in a group and I’m like I was ignoring it why everyone loves each other Lisa why you feel weird and then over the time I was just like let me just trust my gut and let me just and then as I was assessing more I realized okay some people aren’t authentic and so but I didn’t address it until I was like but you actually have to address it I was like just kind of brushing it off and it wasn’t until I was like I only want to be places where I feel like I can be me and there’s no pre and then once I so I had to say you need to address it I had to look at it and then I had to ask myself what I’m going to do differently um and between those little shifts then becomes okay you are now able to turn up in your true authentic self um and somewhere I heard like the definition of integrity what you think is what you say and how you act yeah and if one of those don’t align it means you’re live in integrity and I started to really pay attention oh Lisa hang you have a thought are you saying the the words that align with your thoughts and my actions align with my words and so that really helped me just kind of start to identify the places that may not be whether it’s in a relationship or a friendship um but I think that can hold you back if alignment has been my word for this year yeah I’ve really been working toward that because I had someone a coach that referred to me as duplicitous and it made me angry it made me so mad I was like what that’s I am not duplicitous it made me so mad yeah so there was something there right so then I had to do a deep job I’m like okay what what about this word and so I went you know I went research all the different definitions and then what I started to to un um uncover about myself it was my insides were shredded right they were all the stuff going on inside but outside I’m like hey how’s it going yeah blah blah blah blah versus being like okay how are my insights let’s get my insights to match and and get that healed so that when people meet me or when I’m in conversation it is really authentic and it’s not just to make other people feel good in a moment right like people usually don’t ask others how they feel because they want to know how they feel it’s just like an extended high but what’s interesting though don’t you think even in what you said we want people to be comfortable but really we want them to be comfortable is that we’re comfortable oh for sure yeah we’re not good at being uncomfortable and so ultimately if we can just embrace the discomfort yeah in getting to the truth and then the the most authentic things but we don’t want to embrace that discomfort well it’s not really fun no but it’s so good for us it is you know but you also don’t have to open up other people’s boxes and I just say that as I have a tendency to do this so I try to like people I try to be you made me feel very comfortable when I came in your home I appreciate that and everyone did and made an effort and I go well that’s really nice and and they weren’t doing that because they’re like ah that Campell he’s a crazy so you don’t know what he’s going to do we better just keep him calm like I’m a tiger and being generous and gracious yeah and so that’s a nice thing to do to people and you don’t have to poke and prod and go I want to get right down to the heart of the matter I need to open up Keith you don’t have to do that you could just leave my box closed you know and I can go on my way so I’m not against making people be comfortable I’m not against you know we don’t have to cry all the time yeah no that’s interesting and I think I I was saying it more from we will mold ourselves into being something that doesn’t authentically align with us in order to make someone else comfortable so are we going to sacrifice oursel to avoid that that discomfort of the conversation and I would say that’s probably not a good thing to do in the long term because you’re going to sacrifice yourself in the interest of discomfort and you’re going to lose a group of women man can really be revealing both both meaning both sides of that right like there is nothing more effervescent about a group of women that get together and just are like yes let’s go push you higher how do you feel it there it is like you’ll like levitate but man if there’s just one little it’s like it’s like everyone’s got scissors and it’s like a it’s a clipping free for all and it’s really interesting like who who we surround ourselves with are such a reflection yeah Gil friendships especially like groups I’ve got one group that like they’re just solid yeah they’re just amazing women everyone’s got each other’s backs and no one puts up like a front and when we’re struggling we’ll say how are you and no one will ever say I’m fine yeah like that’s one of our rules like you have to be honest in your response and so having a support system like that but going to the last one that you guys list on beginning to live again and hit me is to refuse to ignore the hurting places that’s going back to the uncomfortability of it um talk to me about not ignoring the hurting places I went to all the places well I think we’re we’re just not meant to carry it we’re not meant to carry all the stuff that we carry as humans pain shame like it just it’s like I I feel like I’ve lost so much mental weight yeah right like I feel like my mind has space and I’m not in a hurry to fill it because I’m not avoiding anything so I’m sitting personally I’m very uncomfortable in this moment in my life because I don’t know what I’m doing next for the first time I think in 30 years because I’m refusing to I’m refusing to force a next versus just be in this I don’t know and okay I’ve torn off every closet door the hinges are gone the all little skeletons are out dancing the book is everywhere it’s you know it’s all out there and there is a piece that’s that I’m getting to now experience because there’s nothing hidden and I think that’s I’m not suggesting that someone has to go write a book or whatever and publicly display it like I have but I think that when we can own our stuff and go to our deep dark secrets that’s when we get that Integrity that alignment and the freedom that comes with it because you’re not avoiding yourself and then also I own my narrative no one gets to tell me you’re a this you’re that I know exactly what I have done and where I am now and that there’s Freedom that comes with that like I own it I was complicit I made my decisions and they were influenced for sure from different situations but that I think ownership and self- responsibility too is where we get so much just Clarity and then it’s not heavy then it’s just then it’s just kind of hanging out right it’s not weighing us down how freaking badass and confident do you feel right now girl I don’t know about that I uh I’m going to say it for you I really like myself I had breakfast with myself alone this morning and it was just really lovely I have to fill it with my phone or you know or distracted I was just eating my breakfast which sounds so silly no it doesn’t that’s interest but it is so powerful because I just got to sit in my own self and it’s very imperfect and gloriously flawed but that self-acceptance is so uh it’s just a lot easier self-acceptance is a lot easier than trying and that’s really freeing you know to be able to just exist and not need anything from the outside that’s so powerful guys guys this has been so amazing where can people find you individually and in the book why do we stay oh well we are all over social media um Stephanie quail.com for any of our events that we’re doing uh why do it stays everywhere you buy books independent book stores or Amazon if you want to leave a review evidently those matter they do they matter we’ll take them and Keith where can people find you uh I have a website wkei campbell.com that’s about it I’m kind of hard to find if you want to learn the sneaky mind games that narcissists use to trap you then click here right now chronically second guess myself I often blame myself I don’t always feel safe in the world I am almost obsessive about details
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WARNING: I will never ask for your contact info in the comments section, that is someone impersonating me!
Ps. Your soul radiates and I can see you are a beautiful person inside and out. I’ve been there back to back –
Overt narcissist then covert narcissist. It is amazing what they can do when they take your power..
I’m glad you have risen from the ashes!
Notice this type of abuse happens overwhelmingly to women. My belief is that it begins with girls being indoctrinated with the messaging that her goal in life is to get married to Prince Charming and live happily ever after. So they ignore very important information when getting to know men. Girls are rarely taught the truth about the nature of men and how they can lie and manipulate to get what they want. Girls aren’t taught the signs of abusive people and patterns. Girls are socialized to take care of everyone else and their feelings and ignore their own. Girls are taught to disregard their intuition because they are “hysterical” and crazy. Girls are taught to be the “cool girl” and not speak up or make waves. Today we have language for some things because of social media. For example, negging, is the equivalent of her description of the guy clipping her wings.
I know dudes who do that, it's quite common actually (or it's becoming common practice). They are opportunists, they secure multiple sources of income, sex & other supplies. They're basically wh@res, but worse. And it's all a gameplay to them, they feel no shame or remorse.
First, it can happened almost to anybody. Second, you need to forgive yourself for not seeing the red flags. Third, you need therapy and start all over again…
We’ve all been there. Trust your gut.
Yup also they give a compliment with an insult,I like short girls,it’s like what?!that’s not nice
Or saying ur not fun cuz they can’t just come and pick u up whenever they want
Or commenting,u have a body of a 16 year old,ur beautiful ur so hot.so weird.like which one is it so confusing
“I validated him”
So true.
This is just spot on
Everyone should hear this! It is just excellent. Thank you for sharing your story and i will get this book!
After 2 yrs with a narcissistic sociopath (who is a ceo of a publicly traded company) it took me 3 yrs to get back into the gym. He was ultra judgmental of my physical body. I’m a nutritionist and physical trainer. He often compared me to his ex wife and the multiple women he was in relationships with. (Ironically he’s 80-90 lbs overweight with erectile dysfunction)
Covid hit just after the breakup ( the 8th discard ) at which point my personal training business became exclusively online. I completely felt unworthy of self care. Gained a bunch of weight and the self loathing and shame kept me stuck for a long time.
Fortunately I did the healing necessary to keep me from attracting, and being attracted to, toxic men. I’m back in great shape and I just feel sorry for the unaware women he is now involved with.
I noticed that the covert narcs can't hide their need to belittle. At first, they will praise you and compare you to others, belittling them. They eventually turn and start bashing just you. As an autistic who mirrors, I just bashed back bc I thought this was his way of being humorous, not narc grooming. Thankfully, he imploded and ended and I realized what was going on. Glad I escaped w him feeling like the sh#$% he is, glad I called him out on it and let him know his weight, failure, etc. sucked more than my ethnic features. He literally tried to bash me for being Asian
Oh my God. Thank you yes toxic relationship 1 2 and 3. Oh my!!!! This is so good eye opening for me
What's the singer's name? I didn't hear it
You have saved many with this episode.
Narcissists are the worst parents.
Sounds like my neighbor.
Lisa, you are an angel. I love you and your channel so much.
A person who is deep in the situation may not be open to listen to what friends and family are warning them. It’s when the individual realizes that they need to open their perspective and see what they need to do heal and work on in breaking the cycle and pattern. It’s a process.
As one of the survivals of a manipulators. I can say one thing I knew right from beginning something was off, I understood it, even identified, later recognized it, felt hurt, frustrated, mad. I think we are all know what hurt us, but if we had any feelings like that as growing up, although when we were kids we hated tht feeling ( me for instance could not wait to get out and run away as soon I will be old enough), and if they give us any feed of where our gaps of needs are and if they feel tht gap even with a bit we get pulled right back in. Throw all those hurt relationship I'm happy I went through them – they made me stronger, tought me love myself, chose me and self radical acceptance, and learned to walk away from toxic ppl regardless how sweet, handsome, rich and high status they are, I can smell bs miles away . Good luck to all
Always remember that water can and does cut through stone given enough time. Even a subtle drip can take its toll over years.
6:41 textbook gaslighting.
Imagine they are totally different is fantasy and that is what a narcissist needs to manipulate and con their partner
I was secure before meeting him. He said I made him want to be a better man. He was a wolf in sheep's clothing and when I finally stopped tolerating his crap, he dumped me saying he was going to find a secure woman…
It still hurts but looking back it made me stronger. I know what to avoid instead of overlook. Intuition was like wtf but my heart was keeping me chained to the devil. So happy to be free! Good riddance and good f$#ing luck.
I am still in the middle of being in a abusive relationship. No, he’s never touched me but a lot of what this woman is saying I have experienced the cheating the lying trying to make me feel like I’m not heard. I’m not seen saying I’m insecure because when he’s flirting with a woman right in front of me, I talk to him about it and that means I’m insecure, there’s so many things that I’ve heard in the author talk about that are just like that lightbulb go off thank you
"How did I let this happen to me?" The phrasing of that question is the place to start. This relationship didn't "happen" to this woman – she chose it. I'm not faulting her for this man's terrible character – who on earth is going to even imagine someone is this predatotry? But the fact remains, relationships DO NOT "just happen" to an adult woman.
What an excellent topic! Really making me think!
What a jerk, he took advantage of your naivete and your kind trusting demeanor . This is like the worst sin of all. What a jerk!
People feel so much shame after being scammed, but it shouldn’t have to be that way.❤️🩹 We need to put the blame where it belongs.
Been there…
It is always our story and the fantasy that is denying the reality. We all had that initial impulse telling us this person is no good, but we did not listen. We also had low self-esteem that we believed everything bad they said about us. It might be true that we were victims of reality, but more so we were victims of our own weak minds.
Stephanie, you are a blessing.
She was gaslight from start. Possibly not first narc in her life hence did not know how to escape this sh*f
YES!+ I've experienced all of these behaviors from my Malignant Narcissists husband of 42 years married and 45 years together. I'm in the process of getting Divorced now. I need to get your books to learn the best ways to negotiate with him. Especially now that I've moved out of our marital home. He has defamatory statements about my character and mental health to my older brothers. He called them several times trying to get my brothers to agree with his self-diagnosis of me. He didn't think I would verify the truth. I did just that. Then I confronted him with his lies. He's done these tactics of belittling and defamatory statements about me for years during our marriage. He and my mother both continue to do this to me. I feel like I should tell each of them, "If you don't stop this behavior, I will get an attorney involved and sue you both individuals with defamation. Oh, my mother is 91-years old now, living alone and raised me without my Father present for the majority of my life. She's a Malignant Narcissist too. My mother Divorced my Father when I was 12 years old and he died of Cancer when I was 14-years old.
Omg the goldfish!!! I’m dying Lisa 🤣💀🤣💀
Thank you for sharing ‘clipping’ ego shock. Wow, narcs do this all the time. Calling out these toxic tactics enlightens all of us!
26 yo is very young. This was a red flag .
The advice to look at a narcissists’ history is almost impossible for the very reason that narcissists are so secretive. It’s part of their nature.
They often live double lives and take a lot of measures to hide things (for example they’ll have a second phone).
You also can’t ask his friends because a lot of times narcissists are well liked by others due to their superficial charm. They also often do “acts of service” aka the communal narcissist, to make a good impression.
The aforementioned is one of the reasons you often feel that there’s nowhere to turn because nobody will believe you.
As a victim of narcissistic abuse we often wonder if there’s something wrong with us considering how well-liked and often successful the narcissist is. This is still true even though the narcissist is blatantly manipulative and mean behind closed doors.
Oh my goodness, I've been in that same situations multiple times with my husband
"Cutbait" ❤😊
"I questioned myself more than I questioned him." That statement hit me so hard. I was in a ten year toxic marriage to a narcissist. I'm divorced and out of the relationship three years now. I am still on my healing journey. So much of what was described in this podcast was my story. My message to anyone who is struggling to leave a toxic situation is to just walk away. I know it's hard, but there is healing and work to be done on the other side. You will not regret leaving. It is so worth it, the first time you look in the mirror and see yourself and smile, you will feel a joy and peace that you thought you lost, but it was not lost, it was just sleeping. Welcome to your healing journey! I wish you success. Don't stop moving forward. I promise you will not regret leaving. Healing and wholeness is on the other side waiting for you! I wish you luck! You got this…😊❤