Peter Cardwell | 09-Jun-24

Westminster insider Peter Cardwell scours the latest news from Parliament, featuring exclusive interviews with political heavyweights.

Catch Peter every Friday from 4pm-7pm, and every Saturday and Sunday from 10am-1pm.

the independent studies as well have said that none of the parties are actually able to on their tax Jeremy H the chancellor today saying that people who earn over £100,000 need to be given tax breaks I think I mean you’re in a cost of loving crisis M you’re trying to get people to vote for you most people don’t earn over £100,000 pounds a year that’s an absolute dream to many many people awful lot to dissect and uh Peter cell is the man to do just that no Chesney Hawks this week though which we’re very dis not this week Lou did send me a voice message the other day yeah I think he might be changing his number soon uh listen uh thank you thanks for having me I’m back next weekend at 1:00 here on talk so make sure that you join me there Peter Cardell coming up next right here live on talk [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] e [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] this is talk [Music] very good morning I’m Peter Cardwell this is talk thank you so much for your company I’m here between now and 1:00 big political week coming up we’re going to be discussing some of the party’s plans what they’re putting to you but the breaking news this morning is not political at all it actually is in regard to the TV Doctor Michael Mosley who has been found dead his uh body has been found on the Greek island of Simi we’ll be going there live in just a minute to talk about that and what the latest is also labor has the largest lead over the Tories since since March we’ll be talking about a half ton electric bike posing a threat to London pedestrians and of course the dramatic Rescue of those four hostages yesterday we’ll be talking to the cousin of someone who is still being held hostage by Hamas terrorists 210 people according to Hamas terrorist figures which we’ve got to be really skeptical about have apparently been killed in the operation by the Israeli Defense Forces the Israeli Army we’ll be talking to the Israelis about that and what happened they say the death tool was lower but nonetheless uh there may well have been civilian casualties taken there we’ll also be talking to Von talking about Von gathing in Wales because the first Minister there has had a vote of no confidence uh only a few weeks into his role also labor announcing plans to fix the prisons crisis and keep criminals Behind Bars loads to talk about this morning I want your thoughts on all the things that we’re talking about maybe your memories of Michael Mosley as well who’s an incredibly popular TV doctor he had books he had columns and newspapers all sorts of ways maybe helped you lose weight Tred end to an amazing career uh give us your thoughts 0344 499 1000 is the number to call you can text me on 872 with the word talk in your text you can tweet me at talktv or follow me at Peter Cardwell you can also send me a WhatsApp voice note or a text message via WhatsApp on that c main number 0344 499 1000 stay with me until 1:00 here on talk [Music] well let’s go straight to Nicholas veladas who we spoke to yesterday actually a Greek uh journalist who is on that island of uh semi uh Nicholas uh tragic news this morning just bring us up to date with what we have learned in the last hour a group of journalists together with the mayor of Simi went uh out on a boat uh in order to reach the caves system of caves called Abes where you know Michael musley might uh have been found on the way as they were searching the area you see you see the pictures right now the um they found him just uh 20 yards from the water he had reached his uh the point he wanted to go at a marina uh he would get a a taxi from there SE taxi to go to yalos where he was living with his uh wife and a couple of friends but unfortunately he didn’t make it now uh it’s either he fell out of this Rocky Hill or maybe you know the heat uh uh hit him because it was uh the local say that it had reached up to 45 degrees celius at the time about 2:00 215 in the afternoon uh the so one of the cameraman who was uh actually on the way to the caves called a beast uh he spotted some something on the on the beach and uh he zoomed in and they found that it was uh the body of a man pressed like uh Michael Mosley he the umbrella he used to protect himself from the scorching s was found on his side uh there is not so far a positive identification his wife and his children who are and the four children who are on the island have been called you know to recognize the body uh the uh deserts unfortunately had an end that uh uh authorities you know thought that something like that would could have happened since he took a very treacherous path on the way to a marina from p uh all the CCTV camera stuff that was seen uh yesterday and the day before had recorded him on the way but uh through P after P he moved toward a marina uh that’s a very very Steep and Rocky Hill there and it’s very difficult to cross even at uh when the temperature is all right at that time it was 45° they say so it was really a difficult task that he said upon and he had almost reached there I mean his his body was found just 20 yards from the sea which meant that had he crossed these 20 yards he could have called a taxi a SE taxi to take him wherever he wanted on the island because the at at this spot in a marina there is a station of SE taxi station so he could take there’s a a taxi every 20 minutes from there so he could have taken that and yeah be save but unfortunately he didn’t make it Nicholas this was a very extensive search over a number of days I’m sure questions will be asked as to why this particular area wasn’t looked at is it remote it doesn’t sound as if it is no it it is not not the mayor tells us that about 200 people were in the in the vicinity but uh the way he felt probably I mean he was covered by rocks and uh uh I mean you cannot see it easily you can see it from the from the sea that’s how I mean the cameraman a local cameraman uh zoomed in and found him uh the but the people who were near the bits they couldn’t they couldn’t see him because they were like sort of two yards away I mean if you see now where the uh uh the the the fire truck stands I mean it’s the other the other end of this uh golf there uh and uh people didn’t see him as simple as that although there was an extensive search and rescue operation many people were involved in that the fire brigade the uh Port Authority the police uh many volunteers the some Red Cross volunteers who came on the island sniffer sniffer dog that was sent from Athens uh helicopter drones it was a huge search operation and finally he was found by a cameraman just crossing you know the this area Okay uh Nicholas thank you very much indeed that’s Nicholas vadis who is a Greek journalist there on and uh reporting the news that on the island of semimi the TV Doctor much more than a TV Doctor Author columnist uh really very very wellknown and uh very revered uh Doctor Who give people a lot of information about all sorts of things not just dieting but all sorts of different documentaries and uh Health advice he wrote a column in the mail on Sunday as well uh Michael Mosley has been found dead the police are reporting uh that the body uh has been identified as as Michael Mosley found on the Greek island of semi if there are any developments in this we will of course bring them to you throughout the program here on talk but I want to talk about something else now which is that a report that says that mass immigration in Britain has made Britain’s economy bigger but not actually made us richer uh Steven wolf is the director of the center for migration Stephen this is a very interesting report because it says that mediocre economic performance since 2010 has been flattered by the 6 million population surge between then and 2013 this is according to the resolution Foundation think tank so this is a a pretty leftwing think tank but at the same time the numers not entirely adding up what do you make of it well I’m not surprised I’ve actually been calling on this this for probably about four or five years and certainly when I started drafting papers uh for the government about the impact economically on the United Kingdom that it would be negative I mean let me try and if I can take two big pieces of economic data for people and try and break it down GDP which is loved by politicians the bank of England and think tanks who support large growth is about just the the economy of the companies governments and people in a country and it rises by getting more and more people in just so you keep putting people in it rises and Rises because it’s based on the idea that more people spend more money and that’s why governments love it because they can say look we look great and if you fail in two two it is an In fairness Stephen it is an internationally recognized way of working out how big a country’s economic output is but I totally get your point in that um I imagine the next sentence you’re going to talk about uh GDP per capita as in each individ individual person actually brings into the economy yes because GDP per capita is about how you and I how much wealth we have and what we’ve seen from the statistics from the office of national statistics is saying that GDP per capita which shows how wealthy we are as an individual has fallen it’s Fallen by 0.7% over the last couple of years and what that means is that every individual is 100 poorer just because of the rise in GDP over that period of time and why does that matter it matters a great deal because whilst you’ve got this group think in government that’s saying GDP is great it means that it’s brilliant for asset owners people who own houses and bus and big businesses but what it also means is they’re not automating it’s led to a reduction in wages over a period of time because they don’t have to increase it it has big environmental costs because the more people that you get in the more houses you’ve got to build the more roads that you’ve got to get in and in and in further on you also have to increase taxes or borrow as this government has to pay for it so you get increased costs to the to the country of our interest rates to the International Community so as a whole this think tank is correct it’s shown very clearly that as you have more immigration into the country it makes each individual poorer and although GDP Rises the big difference there is that I think now research is beginning to look at GDP uh is that it’s actually Peter helping the richest people in this country grow not the poorest well that’s interesting as well in terms of the fact that migrants themselves generally tend to be uh fairly uh poor uh of course many of them economically have come here although there are some at various levels of society as well as you know doctors coming here from abroad for example are going to earn good salaries but actually in regard to this have we been sold a lie essentially to say that migration is is good for the economy as a as a sort of idea this is this is a straightforward as it is migration is good for the economy boosts the economy fills the gaps in the economy therefore it is therefore a good thing is that is that something we need to question a lot more using our critical faculties than we have been already because it SS from this information and from what you’re saying that we should Stephen I I I think we have I think there’s been a dangerous group think and I I I use that phrase very very strongly across the International Community from the economic schools in in Harvard and Yale and Oxford and Cambridge where an awful lot of these people who end up in government in particular here in the treasury where they all are taught by the same lecturers who for years have said that GDP mattered and it may well have done immediately after the war it may well have done in in the periods of the 60s and the 70s when we didn’t have mass immigration and it also matters to big companies I mean if you look at those who rely on low low wages whether it’s in supermarkets whether it’s those in transport and Industry and delivery of goods they don’t want to see wages rise dramatically because if they do then their modeling work starts to fail and so we need to challenge this I remember very clearly U and sounds totally weird for someone like myself but one of my first political books Peter I ever had was Arguments for socialism by Tony Ben written in the early 908 I’m not sure it had a huge effect in you Stephen but what he did do very clearly there he said the economy was going to be driven by those within government and business who believed in a low wage low skilled economy because they’re going to use all in his words the European Union that stage and other businesses to do that but I think that’s where we’ve got with immigration I think large corporations are working with those in in government who want to see GDP rise but don’t really care about the impact per person and that’s the dangerous group think that needs to be challenged by all of us okay Stephen thank you very much indeed step wolf our director of the center for migration um lots of people getting in touch about Michael Mosley as well I’ll read a couple of those in the second but Ian and Liverpool says our labor about to dig deeper into the pocket of the motorists a part of the green New Deal would it demonize uh first to justify taxing well we will see what labor say in their Manifesto they’ll be out this week we’ll be talking about that a little bit throughout the program as well also I mean Does anybody read manifestos do they count do they are they worth the paper they’re printed on because I mean there are big decisions made for example Tony Blair making the decision to give Independence to the bank of England something we’re still dealing with and as a fact of life today that wasn’t in the 1997 Manifesto things that uh were in the uh 2017 Manifesto for the conservatives the dementia tax remember that well that of course was not implemented because it made such a negative impact on that on Michael moley penny has been in touch and says he was such an intelligent man it was over 45 degrees and they tell you to stay in doers the shade never to walk out apparently he wasn’t feeling very well and no mobile so why did an intelligent man do that I wonder if he had heat stroke if I’ve had that and I had no water it’s stupid you can die very easily an unnecessary Death perhaps and a waste uh leaving a wife and family he will be very much missed said says Penny another person says I was diagnosed as a type 2 diabetic 8 years ago and used a book written by Dr Mosley to successfully lose around 70 pounds wow that’s huge and bring my weight down to a more normal BMI range I’m very sad to hear about the discovery of his body as I credit him and his work uh I think his wife might have been involved in the development of the diet and more key to weight loss recipes with my transformation the battle is never over however and being a food addict which is now how I regard myself unlike other forms of addiction cool turkey is not an option advice and Treatment available in the NHS for type 2 diabetes at the time of my diagnosis was hopeless although this has changed with a knowledge gained from the research under taken by Dr Mosley and others I wish I to express my condolences to his friends and family this wasn’t just a TV Doctor this just wasn’t someone who you know gave out advice um willy-nilly this was someone who really made a big impact including on that person’s uh a person who’s just texted in there perhaps you’re another person who Dr Michael Mosley made a big impact in on tell me uh what you thought of 0344 499 1000 on immigration as well Chris and a showw has been in touch and says a report States immigration has made the economy bigger but not richer I’m no Economist but I could have told you that years ago the economy became wider but not deeper what it did was to make the rich richer but poorer people p for it says Chris well let us know your thoughts 0344 499 1000 text me on 872 with the word talk on your text we’ve got our panel next we’re going to go through all the big stories making the headlines today and a few that will actually be making the news this week as well it’s going to be a big political week another uh debate between rishy sunak and Kier starm that’s going to be in Grimsby on Wednesday I’m going to be there for that and bring you all the latest on talk as well so stay with us you can catch me every weekday morning live from 5 we go through the front pages we talk through the big stories of the day but also we take your calls so you can go through the newspapers pick your stories and then discuss things are on your mind [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] e [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] across the UK on dab Plus on your smart speaker on your smart TV and on your side this is talk this is indeed talk and we’re reacting to the breaking news this hour that Dr Michael moley’s body has been found according to Greek police stat is on the island of Simi we’ve been speaking to your correspondent there if you have any memory or tributes to Dr Michael Mosley will’ll hopefully be talking to one of his colleagues or uh a TV fellow TV doctor but later on in the program this is obviously breaking news and we’re uh making uh representations behind the scenes to try and get someone on to pay tribute to him but I know a lot of viewers and listeners have paid their tributes who read the m just a minute ago let me know your thoughts 0344 499 1000 you can also text me at 72 with a word talking or text or tweet me at talktv or follow me at Peter Cardwell I want to talk to our panel now I’m delighted that Theo usherwood is is here political commentator recently celebrated uh 10-year wedding anniversary congratulations and Charlie Dy content lead uh Center for migration control who 10 years ago was in school uh so was was not married uh at that point um although maybe in 10 years time will be I don’t know uh Mass immigration has made Britain’s economy bigger but not made us richer this is a report we were talking about with Steven wolf a minute ago Charlie as content lead for Center for uh migration control you will no doubt have a view on this most definitely yeah um I mean I’d like to sort of go on from your point of me being in school 10 years ago cuz I’d like to bring a sort of young person’s perspective to this story um cuz the interesting thing that I am finding among my peers is that more and more people are waking up to the fact that mass immigration has done enormous damage to this country um and that’s maybe 10 years ago would have been a fairly uh unacceptable view to hold as a young person because um you would have been you know smeared well so many people I mean there are so many times when actually even discussing the fact that our country is changing quite dramatically and immigration has been much bigger over the last 20 years oh you’re racist to discuss that well you’re not you’re not perfect legitimate conversation absolutely and today we see you know the election is coming up and immigration is the number one issue it is the immigration election and that’s what everyone’s talking about so among my peers more and more people are waking up to the fact that poers will say that it’s the cost of living and um and and it’s the NHS but actually if you go to the pubs if you go walk in the stre I know that but I was actually going to support your point if you just let me actually on Friday night in the debate Nel FR said well actually if you talk about uh the cost of living you’re talking about immigrant NHS you’re issues talkig all abely it can seem a little bit TR to just blame everything on one issue but quite frankly so many things are Downstream from the fact that we have imported so many millions of people into our country I was reading something the other day that said it was an article from 2007 that said that um the population of Britain as predicted by supermarkets which are generally an authority in these things because they know how much food is being consumed um could be 77 million now bearing in mind last year on said the you know the official statistic was 67 million if you know almost 20 years ago supermarkets were saying it was 77 million that suggests that actually it’s a lot higher and what that means is our infrastructure much of which was built in the postwar period in the 50s and the 60s and so on which was built to sustain maybe 50 60 million people um is just grinding to a hole because it’s simply not built to withstand the weight of of a population of maybe 80 90 100 million um you know this is the it’s the roads the reason the roads are falling apart public transport you really think the population is going to get to 100 million in this country I’m not saying that it’s 100 million now but I’m saying that it’s it’s absolutely within the Realms of possibility if current trends continue the how big an Su do you think immigration is in this election but just looking at the numbers just to to query that because what’s the population is now 60 60 70 million the annual population rise between uh 2010 2023 this according to the resolution Foundation is up 0.7% so it’s going to take a very long time for us to get to 100 million but there is a real fear that there’s too much Amer and yeah I I don’t doubt that and I don’t I don’t I don’t question that for for a moment right but if you look at the NHS in particular you’ve got huge shortages we rely on immigration in order to fill those vacancies within the NHS now it’s fine if you want to put up a barrier to that and say actually and and the conservative government have and they’ve looked to do that with by by saying you can’t bring your dependence with you if you want to make it more difficult for those people fine then go and train the nurses in this country go and train the doctors in this country go and train the porters go and bring the NHS and bring it up so actually the NHS can function and you can fill those vacancies but I I I do slightly resent this let’s blame the migrants and say it’s their problem when actually they’re the ones who are filling they’re the ones who are filling the filling the vacancies they’re the ones who are doing the jobs and they’re often low paid jobs they’re low paid jobs and they rely on people doing long hours antisocial hours and they’re doing the jobs I’m I if you want to put up the barriers and you want to say right we don’t want the migrants go for it then come up with a solution and at the moment the government hasn’t done that because we’ve got suppressed wages we’ve got uh inflation until a few months ago was running into double digits that’s what’s making people poorer that’s why people can’t afford the things that they want to be able to as a boy man uh do you think Theo yeah I think I think I think it’s easy to blame the migrants if you want to blame if you want we’re not really blaming the migrants per se we’re we’re what I I would imagine many people maybe Charlie don’t want put words in your mouth is the level of migration I I don’t think anybody if you want to be an economic migrant I don’t blame anybody saying y I want to better myself I want to go somewhere want to earn more money that that that’s fair enough the system if I may yeah no I’m I’m in no way blaming the migrants I don’t blame a single person for coming to this country I blame the government because Mass immigration is a government policy and the thing the funny thing about it is when the government speaks about Mass immigration they talk about it like it’s the weather or something oh it’s just something that just happens and we have no control over it no there is a conscious decision being made there has been a conscious decision for the last 25 30 years to bring in an enormous number of people and I don’t blame a single one of those people for coming here why wouldn’t you want to come here they I I don’t I don’t know if it’s a it seems to me if you look at the policies that are being introduced it is making it more difficult it is making this country less attractive for people who’d want to come here and make their lives here and support our economy whether it be in the NHS or elsewhere if you look at and and I’m speaking specifically about James cly’s policy to uh put a to ban the dependence on migrants coming into this country that’s one that’s one really clear example if I I think what you need to be doing or what the government should have been doing and hasn’t been doing is investing in training programs investing in ensuring that the that if you want to train to be a nurse you actually have to pay fees to do that you know why would you want to why would you want to do that and isn’t that the point I think we’re actually in agreement here and isn’t that the point that actually immigration yes we should talk about it yes we should deal with it yes that probably the levels are too high but there’s so much other stuff as we were talking about the very start of this discussion that it actually comes into that needs to be fixed as well for you if I can make two quick points um one my my fiance is actually training to be a midwife and so and I think it’s absolutely absurd that she has to pay for the privilege to become a midwife to serve the NHS and so she has an inside look at all of this stuff and it is a mess but my second question actually there would be with Rishi sunic and Kia starm both failing to answer this question what do you think would be what what number is too much immigration what number should let’s let’s just start let’s just start with the number what was it 685,000 it was 750,000 the year before and and in large part that was 247,000 were made up by the decision to support Ukraine and those leaving Ukraine to avoid the conflict was happening with Russia and that was a conscious decision that was something actually the government had put up and I think most people support and most people supported it so that’s why we have particularly High numbers this year or the year to 23 December 23 in the year to December 22 though that’s the that’s the reason why it is out of kilter with the rest of it how much is too much though I’ll tell you my answer my answer is anything more than that Net Zero at this point is too much I i’ I’d go where the vacancies are look at the vacancies we need a we need a functioning NHS we need we need a functioning economy until you’ve got until you fixed those things don’t talk don’t don’t come back to me and talk about immigration fix those problems if you fix don’t come back to me and talk about immigration I think immigration should be done first though no no you you’ve got to keep the economy going I mean this this net migration zero argument is just a is is completely pointless you’ve got to keep the first and foremost thing you’ve got to do is you got the economy has got to be kept going we are not we’ve we we had brexit fine we had covid fine we don’t get to Tinker about now with the economy that whoever takes over whether it’s K stom or rishy sunak has been clear eyed that the economy has to come first and until you can fill those vacancies that support the economy and and ensure that the economy can keep on functioning and and we we can’t start chopping off our hands and our feet and any other body parts because we somehow think that we have to be tied to this idea that migration is a problem and the that’s a reason reable point isn’t it to say that right training nurses for example you talk about your fiance being a midwife that that in itself is an issue that will take time to solve maybe there’s the political will maybe there isn’t but just that one issue never mind things like do we have enough people in what’s left of our Factories do we have enough do we have enough teaching assistant do we have enough you know whatever and that’s going to take longer therefore if we simply said today actually let’s go to net migration that wouldn’t work even though we might want it to work it wouldn’t work I think it’s a bit of a positive feedback loop type problem because as much as you can make the case that we need migration for our economy again there’s with this study today there was the center for policy studies study that came out a couple of weeks ago that suggests it actually doesn’t have any benefit at all for our economy so as long as we continue to bring people in and as long as they continue to bring their dependence um the E economic situation is only going to worsen and so I think the problem with our system where we do have such short time Horizons where our leaders do think in such um you know short terms you know it’s just all about the next election they cannot countenance a little bit of shortterm um hardship for long-term gain because ultimately sure I mean I’m I’m prepared to have the conversation about if we were to end immigration today um there would be uh an economic penalty to that I’m prepared to accept that I’m not sure that’s true but I’m prepared you know for the sake of argument let’s say it is even if that was the case I would still be prepared to go through with that because ultimately the long-term goal of weaning ourselves off of mass migration is more important than patching up you know just putting putting plasters on every single wound and just hoping it gets better when actually it’s never going to but I want to give Theo a right of reply here I me I mean we’ve had we talk about a little bit of hardship we’ve had a decade of hardship back to well actually more see going back to 2008 it’s been hardship ever since the financial crash we’ve never actually had a booming economy since the financial crash and we’ve had then we had we we left Democratic decision I don’t dispute it to leave the European Union in 2016 fine then we had the pandemic and and and I know I don’t speak for the younger generation like yourself Charlie but um you know I know that many young people out there are find it very diff very very difficult challenging at the moment and it goes right up the income scale as well we got to go do a break but we’ll take more of your thoughts as well after the break we’ll also be talking about uh other issues as well including what has happened in Israel and a half ton electric bike posing the latest threat to London pedestrians I’m sure it’s not just in London as well stay with us here on talk [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] across the UK on dab Plus on your smart speaker on your smart TV and on your side this is talk well thank you very much for everyone who has been in touch on text on WhatsApp and on the phones as well Don says Peter we keep hearing that we need to feed the beast that is the NHS with overseas people L is a disingenuous argument that does not address the migration problem Charlie says are there not already more immigrants in hotels than the number of vacancies in the NHS well that’s that’s illegal immigrants who you you know you’re going to get they need to be processed you’re going to give them a job processing is a much bigger issue as well another person says so we increase migration to enable the NHS to function for the increase of migration um and uh another one on migration actually is Nick who says the proof is now here that mass immigration is lowering our standard of living and making most of us poorer let’s see how the lefties try to dispute this truth there’s no doubt there will great show as always and just on Michael Mosley lots of people getting a touch on one person says uh this is Charlie who says I’m a huge fan of Dr Mosley been doing ketto for quite a few years is it ketto or keto I don’t know keto diet sorry um it it’ll it’ll shock you that I’m I’m a stranger to to the name of the diet uh for quite a few years thanks to him Dr Mosley changed my life says Charlie well there we are that is a lovely thing to say in a great legacy ra tragic news this morning if you’re just waking up to that Dr Michael moley’s body according to Greek police has been found on that island Dorothy E kill bride one uh final one before we go back to our she says amazing to see the four hostages reunited with their families Hamas report on the casualties as a consequence of the Israelis if Hamas cared about their people they would release all the hostages Dorothy I totally agree with you and that is something that we’re going to be talking about a little bit later in the program but I want to talk about domestic politics first because we have now according to one poll by savanta uh labor has climbed to its largest lead over the conservatives since March uh this is Kier starmer’s party a 20-point lead on 46% up four points to is down two on 26% uh Nigel far’s reform UK is up 2.2 11% although some pools put it a lot closer as well and I think we could reach a point where reform actually overtake the conservatives the liberal Democrats are on 10 at one green party on three down one on the S&P on two also down one I mean this is interesting obviously as we move towards the election it’s going to be a massive week Theo uh particularly in terms of the the big debate that’s going and Tim Shipman today in the Sunday Times always worth reading uh their Chief political commentator saying that actually uh there have been a couple of cabinet members who said richy sunak maybe take a bit more of a backseat it’s just been Gaff after Gaff it has and of course the disaster last week of that decision by Riu had to leave the D-Day celebrations earlier to come early to come back to this country only compounded um the the campaign from the conservative point of view which has just been a catastrophe in terms of political you know where where they were they start it was a gamble to start it the gamble has not just not paid off it’s gone horrifically wrong and if you look at this if you look at this poll which of course gives labor a 20 point lead I think you’re quite right to point out about reform this is now not about whether label will win or not it’s clear it’s about what the opposition looks like it’s about what the opposition looks like the story has almost the story is almost moved moved on I know it’s Manifesto week they need to get through the manifestos but really in the last week I mean reform have been doing well so far but but certainly with Nigel Fri that’s given them a boost and really it is a question about what the opposition looks like what what is the answer to that for you well I I I think it’s going to and and this is where you’ve had the rout between Andre Jenkin the brexiteer MP and Richard Ty the leader of Reform well until recently of course when he was taken over by nital frage but but this thing of well we tried to do a deal you didn’t come over you didn’t defect this was Richard Tyson’s argument Andrew Jenkin there was we understand a conversation where they tried to broker some sort of peace between Rishi sunak and Nigel farage before the election which seemed to hinge on the eh CR and and uh e ECR always mix my H’s and C’s in that an acronym but um they they didn’t manage to do a deal and now it’s of course what what theory people like Andrew Jenkin are complaining about Andrew Jenkins complaining about and others are complaining about is actually is Nigel farage simply going to decimate the Tories and the Tories just going to be left with very very few number it’s really interesting on that point actually because Richard Ty has said at various points that he wants to destroy the conservatives yeah Nigel farage has it PS to point out that he’s actually never made that point he has said the Tes have destroyed themselves it’s imploding it’s a disaster leaving the door open Charlie to perhaps Nigel far making some sort of bid Maybe not immediately for some sort of merger take over something or other the kind of realignment that we’ve seen in Canadian politics for example what do you think will happen I think it’s honestly all to play for I think it’s so interesting what we’re seeing right now because for so long it’s felt like nothing has happened in British itics you know it’s been stultified and stagnant and boring um still interesting for the likes of us obviously but um you know with with farage actually coming back not only for this election but saying he’s going to come back for the next five years that’s actually something concrete something has happened um and again if you you know polls of one thing but if you go and speak to people in the street in the pubs um as I like to make a habit of doing um they’ll say it’ll be anything from you know I’m not like keen on frage but he tells it like it is you know not not like the rest of them to I love him you know and the opinion of the public is very much on farage’s side now again as with immigration uh some years ago that would have been quite an unacceptable opinion to have in polite company um yet today it’s it’s quite uh mainstream actually they what did you make of the debate the other night I think from from they tell us anything we didn’t really know we already know and I think what what I think is interesting just in terms of farage’s point of view and where where it goes from here we’ve got three in a bit weeks of the campaign left is does far do farage and Ty just go for the jugl and try and kill off the conserva or do they actually try and find a way of shaping the conservative party what’s left of it so that actually there is possible to for to for there to be a s of a convergence between the few um reform MPS and it will only be a few because that’s where our political system is set up and those remaining in the conservative party after the election and I think what there is a danger potentially of happening is actually I know you talk about people out there in the street or whatever but but what matters in Parliament what matters in Westminster just down the river from where we are studio is how many MPS you know what is the representation in Parliament now if K starm has a super majority of 300 plus as this poll is suggesting it’s quite possible Nigel farage could end up in the House of Commons um surrounded by what one nation MP T MPS who voted for Romain no interest bu with who have no interest in doing business with him and he and he becomes this sort of George Galloway figure for the left George Galloway entered Parliament and actually because the left of the labor party has been squeezed somewhat even though he went into Parliament when he won that Rochdale by elction has not done he’s not made massive and just and just like you can find friends in the House of Commons you can also find enemies you can find yourself ostracized and out on a limb and I think there’s a real danger and I just can’t for the life of me work out why Nigel farage hasn’t figured it out Richard Ty hasn’t figured it out but it’s a real possibility that unless they find a way of doing business with the conservative MPS on the right of the conservative party and by that I mean supporting people like Andrea janin and then if you want to be really ruthless about it going after remain MPS who if you look at these polls will actually keep their seats and trying to actually draw a wedge in there that you might end up with a labor MP then you could end up with you could end up with it just being a sort of pointless exercise you know Nigel farage and a couple of mates in the House of Commons and not really actually and actually the real opposition if you have a huge majority for labor which is suggested by this pool what you could have for you is actually the real uh opposition could be the left of the labor party it could be if George Galloway gets back in it could be him it could be other people on the left of the labor party John McDonald becomes interesting Diane Abott becomes interesting but but but that’s what he was so interesting when the week before when you had the Dian Abott John McDonald well John McDonald you’d never go after John McDonald just be very unwise but but when they went after Dian Abbott and they’d failed to do that but they did succeed in getting F fer Shen in trf would they did they did manage to stop lloy Russ and while down in Brighton and actually what you could end up with is a is a labor party that’s very much aligned with K starma where there isn’t a huge amount amount of internal dissent and a very very small opposition on the conservative benches and a couple of Reform M and and I’m not saying I’m not saying that as a fan by the way or a supporter of K I don’t think it is particularly helpful for democracy I don’t think it’s particularly helpful when it comes to legislation where there are real problems to be Shadow ministers to be in in uh select committee chairs need to go to break in a second but just a quick word on the party we haven’t spoken about at all Charlie the liberal Democrats what impression if any apart from paddle boarding and and going down water slides have they made on this election do you think yeah I I mean that the Ed Davy is a bit of a clown type figure I think it’s been quite embarrassing to see his his uh campaign strategy but hey I mean they they’ve been around for a long time they probably will still be around we got a few protest votes I would imagine yeah um but I mean what I don’t know what they stand for I mean how are they any different to the labor labor and the conservatives the three of them seem to just share share a fundamental worldview do you know who agrees with you George Calloway we will we will uh come back to this on other issues in just a minute here on talk the home of Common Sense is going digital make sure you’re ready listen to talk on radio via daav Plus or your smart speaker or watch it live on YouTube on your connected TV [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] across the UK on dab Plus on your smart speaker on your smart TV and on your side this is talk Mark in leand gets in touch and says morning Peter if migrants are coming to fill NHS vacancies why have the vacancies never been filled with the millions they already come in the last 10 years if they’re clearly uh not staying in those jobs if the number of vacancies never goes down year on year uh one person John Roberts said oh no hold on yes John Roberts has been in touched to say on uh the hous our housing market is too expensive hospitals are at capacity roads are gridlocked energy near capacity High prison population we’re talking about that later in the program stay with us for that at three and a half million plus out of work high is the answer more people no Briner for educated people you would have thought says John Roberts well the fact is there are loads of people who are economically inactive or uh not working in this economy who perhaps don’t want to work in this economy and that’s a whole other problem of getting people back to work that uh different parties are dealing with um this person has whatsapped in to say hi Peter how refreshing that such a young man on your show is so switched on to the problems in our once great country so well done Theo CLE not 22y old uh Charlie D were talking about there David and Hing says well I actually hold that one from David and Hing until we get to that topic which we’re going to do about electric bikes posing a threat to London pedestrians but first I want to talk about where all the teachers have gone a classroom Bri andr as Brit are being lured abroad this is another aspect of migration lots of people working in Australia uh and Dubai as well there are uh various people like doctors as well being lured abroad with high salaries Charlie what do you make of this story well this story is obviously about teachers leaving the UK uh as you say lured Away by large salaries in Australia Dubai Saudi Arabia and so on um and that’s that’s one element of it but there’s also the fact again to bring it back to immigration there’s the fact that we are bringing in millions of new people who many of whom have children or are having children um which is increasing the demand for teachers so it’s not just a supply issue is also a demand issue it’s the same as housing um and so it’s no surprise that uh that uh we’re not that we don’t have enough teachers frankly um because there’s just too many people Theo your thoughts I’m just looking at the numbers the numbers here are staggering newly qualified teacher in the Australian state of New South Wales for instance earns the equivalent of 49,500 compared to the starting salary in the UK of just £30,000 I think the answer is there isn’t it that’s why that’s why teachers that’s why teachers leaving plus you get the Sun shine as well if you’re going to Australia it’s a lovely quality of life in austr a great quality of life and I think and I think this is what this is what happens this is one of the if you think about um it’s a sort of symptom if you like of a that Britain is under is under increasing pressure economically one one obvious example is when you have a number of strikes whether they be on the rail rail Railways or if they be on uh in the NHS or wherever because people are feeling poor and they want better they want pay Rises and they want better working conditions and another symptoms is when when people actually decide that actually they can make a better life for themselves abroad and take what whatever they’ve learned in our teaching system or in our education system and go and go and make the money from the back of that elsewhere some people say Theo that there should be some sort of mandatory amount of time you know if you’ve been trained in the NHS if you’ve been uh given a university education here although obviously you pay a lot of money for it nowadays that uh you know in NHS dentist for example should have to be in the in the I think there is for doctors I think there is there is for doctors but not for I’m not sure there is for teachers but a friend of mine train is a doctor and I think he has to he had to do he was thinking of going abroad and I know that he had to do a couple of years at least in this country because of course the training for doctors is so much longer so so incredibly expensive even more even more than the the huge fees that they pay but but but but but outside of that you’re quite right Peter absolutely there’s you know you can it’s a Year’s teaching program of P PGC and you can but afterwards straight afterwards you can leave and you can and you can go abroad and then often the brightest and the best to deciding that um they’ll apply for jobs in places like Dubai and Australia if I may it it I find it so depressing to think about these sorts of issues in a in a more a sort of wider historical with with a high a wider historical view which is you know thinking about Britain historically we we had one of the greatest education systems the world’s ever seen we imported it all over the world to great effect and today we’re having conversations about our teachers you know teachers who should be proud to be teaching in England in Britain um PR when you can earn you know you you can earn basically a two-thirds more of your salary by moving to Australia which is in many ways a similar Society to our own absolutely yeah leaving because it’s just it’s CU why why would you stay here I mean you know I’m looking out the window here it’s gray you know it’s I think I think Brit’s a great country and I think it’s it’s wonderful to be here but also I can see why people are are you know are are moving in this direction let’s talk about the half ton electric bike posing the latest threat to pedestrians um thousands of half half ton electric cargo bikes that apparently look like small articulated trucks I haven’t seen one myself they’re set to arrive in London next year despite concerns for Public Safety and I’m sure there’ll be in lots of other places as well campaigners have worn the vehicles which weigh up to 650 kg when fully loaded could lead to rise and injuries amongst pedestrians well actually um uh a number of people have been in touch about this as well including David from Hing says been on a visit into Central London in my parred wheelchair with my uh with my uh personal assistant I encountered scooters and these electric Cycles just dumped on the pavement honestly Peter it’s a death trap fortunately High p park is free from them then exhibition rote they in themselves at you I mean there there are a lot of Hazards on our roads and on our Pavements as well for lots of different people but you’ve got these sort of truck likee um electric bikes that are the next thing that’s going to be there a lot of things that are banned of course already Theo but yet still those electric scooters for example still be on a road the the the problem is and and this goes back to the policy that transport for London has introduced fine you have the santand bikes right and you’ve got the the places where you lock them into they’ve then in allowed private comp companies to come in and put electric scooters and electric bikes which have no Locking System there’s no fixed point for them now if you’re a wheelchair user and you’re going you’re on the pavement and somebody has dumped a bike across the the pavement you can’t get past and you can’t necessarily get off the pavment pavement because there cars in the way or that there’s a step down from the curb onto the onto the road so you can’t necessarily go around if you have a guide dog or if you have a a guide stick it’s a real Hazard but Transport for London and I don’t know understand it for the life of me has simply said fine let’s go ahead with I think one of the companies called lime bikes and and there are others and allow people to do this this is the next level so we’re talking about 1500 of these Contraptions I’ve seen them they’re basically they bikes that you have to have an electric motor on the back and then you generally have some sort of frame that supports your luggage on the front that you can load you can load your stuff onto now fully loaded they’re saying they can weigh half a ton I think that the for me the real danger would be that actually they’re they’re much longer they’re much bigger it would be much more difficult for disabled people to use let alone you know to to use to get around them onard even if you’re able if you’re hit by if you’re hit by something weighing a half a ton it can cause also Serious injury as well and if you ride one of these things responsibly fine but I don’t think the company that’s come up with this will necessarily accept liability if somebody is hit and seriously hurt by one of them and it’s not just London as well they may arrive in London but there are lots of places around the UK they will inevitably come to next Charlie and there’s there’s genuine concern about this I think to some to some viewers and listeners this story might sound a little bit uh less serious than some of the other things we’ve discussed today but I think there’s actually a really profound point to be made about this because on paper in the abstract there’s no problem with these bikes being in London as a matter of fact I think I’m a very big supporter of public transport I think public transport is fantastic um and there’s no in principle there’s no problem with these bikes when it works that’s true um but the fact is the the the problem with these bikes is you for example is people laying them letting them lay in the middle of of the path you know and that comes as a result of living in a Society where people don’t value the place they live they don’t feel that they belong there and that they have a responsibility to keep it um nice quite frankly there’s been a loss uh we we’ve lost a kind of high trust society that Britain once was famous for um and I think that’s as a result of many different things again migration being one of them um but I I just think that this wouldn’t be a problem if we lived in a society where people did you you talked about responsibility where people did take responsibility for themselves and for their home you know I think you walk around London and it does feel like a sort of global a city of Global Nomads it doesn’t really feel like you’re in England when you’re in London um and that’s because nobody really feels they belong here it’s just a kind of way station um and so people don’t feel that they have this responsibility to be a little bit disciplined and to be a little bit um also maybe it’s part you you know that people won’t go up to people and say actually could you pick up your bike please I mean I’m not being funny in London if you went up to if somebody if you watched somebody dump a bike and you went up to them and asked them sorry can you sort that out please they might stab you you know people rightfully have these concerns in London because things like crime are so high again because we’ve lost this level of social trust that we once had um farage willing to inflict a labor government on those who support him how will he face them 16y olds with a vote labor will in par for years says Lesley on text Barry’s been in touch and says many people are saying that the story with the Prime Minister leaving Normandy early as old news and time to move on I find this Viewpoint appalling the Prime Minister insulted Normandy veterans Armed Forces personnel and attendants and more importantly the Dead the man is a disgrace says Barry well we’ve got the big uh big political weight coming up we obviously in the thick of a uh election campaign and just brief final thoughts from you if you would obviously sunak and starmer facing off each other in Grims be this week I’d be there for that H what are your thoughts about how this week could go manifestos as well Charlie well I mean I’m hearing rumors that Sun’s going to resign I mean I don’t know how I think that’s going to happen but certainly there are people who who are who would like that to happen I mean he’s canceled all of his media appearances in the last 24 hours um so something’s clearly a Miss I think he’s frankly I think he’s just tired and sick of it and he just wants it to be over in a weird in a the weird sort of human part of me feels a little bit bad for him I really I think he’s done enormous damage to this country but I can’t help but look at him and pity him a little bit frankly do you p uh RI sunak he’s in a very he’s in a very difficult spot but I think those who watched Westminster closely for the last few years could could see this one coming for the conservatives um he’s he’s in this position for a reason and he’s played his hand and he’s not played it very well I think for this week in terms of the manifesto week it’s bin uh for both parties and they’ll be just it always has been Manifesto is difficult and they need to get through it and UPS set as few people as possible and uh labor signing theirs off on uh on Friday going through the greatest of all challenges for any Manifesto policy Sue gra red Pan the chief of staff to to um to kir starmer I mean it will be very interesting we’ve got the uh we’ve got the the big debate this week and Grims me I’m heading up there for that uh you can follow that of course here on talk I also want to hear your thoughts on anything our panelists will be talking about uh what do you make of what they’ve said 0344 499 1000 is the number to call try and take some calls in the next St and uh yeah let us know what you think you can also text me at 72 whether we’re talk in your text or Whatsapp me uh with a voice message or indeed a text message 0344 499 1000 that’s the number for calls as well get your voice on the air here on talk we’ll talk a bit more about Israel next [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] e [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] this is talk [Music] hello there I’m Peter Cardwell I’m here between 9 and 1:00 it’s great to have your company thank you for joining me on talk whether you’re watching or listening whatever you’re up to and I want to hear from you as well3 44499 1,000 is the number to call to react to what is going on very very sad news from Greece in that Michael moley the TV Doctor according to Greek police his body has been found beside the umbrella he was holding really tragic news and a lot of people getting in touch saying that he really made a big impact on their life through his diet books through his broadcasting through his columns uh through all sorts of things that he investigated over the years so we’ll be reflecting that throughout the program and if you do have memories of Dr musley or you want to pay tribute to him get in touch 0344 499 1000 we’ll be talking in just a second about the dramatic hostage rescue in Israel and also the fact that whilst we are of course and if you’re not I I’m not interested in your views uh we are of course absolutely delighted that those four hostages have been returned to their families uh that was a horrendous terrorist attack on the 7th of October the eight-month nightmare for those hostages at least four of them is over we’ll be talking to someone whose cousin is still being held by Hamas terrorists we’ll also talk about some of the criticism of Israel because according to Hamas figures and they are terrorists and we do need to be very very skeptical they say 210 people were killed by uh Israeli forces we got the latest on that in a second from David mener who’s a spokesperson for the Israeli government uh we’ll get the facts and we’ll find out what we think I think we can all agree that four hostages returned is excellent and is good uh progress in this there are of course many hostages still held by Hamas terrorists and the tragedy in that region of which there are no winners continues we’ll also be talking about Wales this are about Von gaffing and his vot of no confidence that’s a big political development and Labor’s plan on prisons are they going to fix them because there’s a massive crisis there as I say I want your views this is my show but it’s your show too 0344 499 1000 is the number to call you can text me at 72 with the word talking or text tweet me at talktv or follow me at Peter Cardwell you can also WhatsApp me either a text message or a voice message to 0344 499 1000 well yesterday we had to brought you the breaking news on my program and around this time actually that Israel had dramatically rescued four hostages this is a number of different agencies including the Israeli army helicopter snatch squads coming under heavy fire as they H freed four people including Noah aramani uh and three other Hamas captives in a raid that was months in the planning uh one soldier one Israeli soldier was dead but there’s been criticism uh was killed as a result but there’s criticism in terms of how many Palestinians have been killed well let’s get the Israeli government’s thoughts on this because their spokesman David maner is with me now David thank you for joining me and congratulations on getting those four hostages back thank you very much Peter good to be with you yes indeed uh not a dry eye in the house uh in Israel uh including with yours truly um really an heroic operation I think these Israelis returned home uh as you said Noah Aram aramani almog Mayer Andre klov and schlom in a remarkable uh IDF forces uh cooperation with the police and the security forces here look our forces uh active as one very much as the majority of the of our people are acting right now um we managed to eliminate the terrorists and we freed uh the hostages you know uh Peter uh since the day one of this war we’ve said we’ve got three objectives to bring home those hostages we’ve got 120 uh still there we’re going to bring every single one home man woman and child we’re going to bring them all home this was an extremely highly complex and dangerous operation but we’ve committed to bring them all home and that’s exactly what we do and what we’ll do and the second thing I wanted to uh emphasize with you if I could Peter is The Bravery of our forces uh tremendous uh bravery and the great pain that we all feel this morning bit of sweet because we lost an excellent Commander father of two Commander Arnon Zamora and uh the operation has been now named uh in his name uh operation Arnon so tremendous success of a mission really resting on a head’s breath uh true heroes and an uh extraordinary um uh morality of of this Commander going in first but unfortunately losing his life but bringing out people home giving us a reason to smile really for the uh for for for the first time in many many months there is definitely a lot to be celebrated but there are real concerns for many that there have been civilian casualties in terms of Palestinians who were around this area now if you Harbor a Hamas terrorist hostage in your house I’m afraid I have very little sympathy for you but what is the death tool that the Israelis are putting on this operation so I haven’t seen that uh figure yet but it it was indeed an area uh full of civilians and uh for us we feel it was an example of the few against the many you know we’ll always continue to do whatever we can uh to limit the damage to civilians but I tell you from Hamas there are reports of 210 people dead to get four hostages back I’m not saying for for a second that you shouldn’t have gone in getting get those hostages back you absolutely should and that was the right thing to do and all the hostages shouldn’t have been taken in the first place and they should be returned immediately even without the Bri of work of the Israeli Army but there do appear to have been at least dozens of casualties here could that have been avoided in anyway well I I saw a a report on one of your competitor stations saying couldn’t you have warned um the locals that we were coming I mean what what a ridiculous uh idea look we’re fighting a genocidal murderous terrorist organization they want their own people to die I think the sooner that Brits get that the the better it’ll be to understand this conflict Hamas actually want their people to die they were hiding it’s a propaganda Victory when they do and that’s why they embed themselves within places like alifa Hospital like schools like uh civilian areas and so on because they know know that a lot of the International Community today will look at this and not be focusing on the four hostages but be focusing on the people who have died but the fact is they have died and there are civilian casualties here I expect there are terrorist casualties as well but you’re not putting a number on that this morning David I don’t I don’t have a number for you Peter but I I I do of course admit that there are is it dozens is it hundreds do do you have any sense I don’t have a a number for you and I’ll get that number for you shortly when the Army uh makes a statement of the wrap-up of this particular uh operation there have been civilian casualties but you know you don’t get to um steal our people away hide them in civilian areas being actually guarded not only by Hamas gunman but by an actual uh civilian family uh in a densely populated area you don’t get to take our people hostage and then complain that civilians have been killed when we rescue them we will always try our hardest to limit um any any damage to civilians our Battle of course is not with the people of Gaza uh they’re very much the victims of Hamas as well but we’re going to destroy Hamas we’re going to make sure that they don’t pose a threat to us militarily or in any governing capacity and we’re going to ensure that Gaza never again poses a threat uh to this country but you’re saying though David that um the people of Gaza are not your enemy it’s the Hamas terrorists I totally accept that argument but nonetheless even by the figures given by your own president you’re talking about uh something in the region of 16 or 17,000 gazan civilians have been killed in this conflict so far is there any way that that number could be minimized do you think that’s obviously that’s far too many uh civilians but at the same time uh are there measures that are being put in place to try to limit those civilian casualties every single moment of every single day we’re targeting the Hamas terrorists and trying to keep ordinary people uh out of Harm’s Way the reason why the civilian uh the civilian to terrorist ratio has been so low don’t forget you know we’ve got it down to one to one the average in the United Nations is 1 to n or 1 to8 so uh you know this is it’s it’s it’s extremely difficult fight uh Hamas of course want as many of their people to be killed as they possibly can because Western media are falling for it left right and Center you know very often I see um you know even in the UK people literally reading out h press releases up to the point where it says you know think of the environment uh think before you print I mean this idea of taking hamas’s word for it this is a genocidal murderous organization we’re on the front line of this battle but we’re fighting it not just for us because if we don’t win here they’ll be on the streets of the UK as well we know we’re on the front line of civilization but we’re going to win this battle we’re a long way towards winning the battle you know our objectives are within reach we’re going to succeed and we’re going to bring all of our people home and we’re going to destroy Hamas and we’re going to return peace to this region what would you say to Joseph Burell the uh European Union foreign policy Chief who described as what he put as the Israeli occupation authorities for imposing punitive measures against the Palestinian Authority who of course don’t rule Gaza but he was essentially saying that uh earlier that he accused you of another Massacre of gazans what would you say to him well allow me to use uh less diplomatic language when I tell you that uh Joseph has unfortunately condemned Israel from the very first day of this war even before Israel had begun its operation to defend itself against the Hamas Terror organization that says they want to do October the 7th again and again and again so we don’t exactly take his criticism uh with any uh Credence because he’s a an habitual offender he uh doesn’t like when Israel defends itself it’s it comes from that long line that European tradition of feeling sorry for Jews when they’re dead but not being able to accept when they defend themselves you know we will defend ourselves this country Will Survive it will Thrive you know this is an extremely tough neighborhood but we’re going to beat this terrorist organization because once again we’re on the front line of this uh terrorist uh outrage and whether Joseph Burell understands it or not we will be successful we’ll always do two things number one we’ll put our hand out to peace first and foremost we’re always try and guard uh civilians as much as we possibly can but we’re fighting this genocidal Army and we are winning and we will finish the job there is no doubt a a very positive uh way you’re talking there but certainly Benjamin Netanyahu is under a lot of pressure politically in all of this because there are some like Benny gance for example talking about perhaps even leaving the war cabinet that perhaps even being the next prime minister of Israel after there is at at whatever stage your country calls an election but from the perspective of those on the right those who are holding Ben’s Coalition together a tying by a threat isn’t it so Peter let me share with you um you know politics aside and I’m not really qualified to talk about the political situation here that’s not my role I can tell you what’s going amongst the people and there is you know maybe 80% support for those three objectives of this war of destroying Hamas and making sure that bringing Omar hostages and making sure that Gaza doesn’t post threat to us there’s a real uh Unity amongst these people and don’t forget you know Israelis love to argue they’re an argumentative people uh that goes back to Biblical times so we do like a good argument and we like to argue amongst ourselves but on this issue there is still I think 80 up to 80% support for these War aims that’s the reason that our young people in the Army put themselves In Harm’s Way that’s why moms and dads that send their 18 and 19 year olds uh off to fight this war understand what we’re fighting for you know what something which people don’t get very often in the UK is we’re fighting for our survival here this is not a far away land of which we know little this is right on our doorstep you know the missiles they land on my apartment uh here in Tel Aviv uh you know the terrorist attacks when they happen they they happen in streets of on the streets of Israel this is an organization that wants to destroy us they say it very very clearly we believe them when they say it Peter and we’re here to stop them we’ll always do it in a way that limits damage to civilians but we’ve got no other choice in this War uh you know Hamas could end this this after noon give back the hostages and lay down their arms they refuse to do that they want to keep on fighting which means that we will finish the job finally and bring peace back to is there any hope of of any form of peace agreement any form of negotiation with Hamas any form of thought about what Gaza will look like who will govern it after this conflict is is over there are uh so many questions that still are still there especially in regard to whether there can be any form of uh form of peace I’m sure you want to destroy herass completely and that’s the objective but is there any way in which any form of accommodation could be could be found so there’s two questions there which you put to me number one is there a chance of an agreement we very much hope so we continue to send negotiators we want there to be an agreement uh you know to to end this the hostilities but at time and time again uh and the Americans and the qataris and the Egyptians will really uh Echo what I say it’s Hamas that walks away from the steel and I tell you why they walk away is they feel emboldened by the international pressure on this country so that’s the first point on the second point of your of the of the day after Hamas look we’re very much focused on that reality uh NE neither of us are going anywhere uh gazans will be in Gaza and we here in Israel Israelis will stay here in Israel we need to live uh side by side we we’re developing plans right now to ensure that uh gazans that don’t wish for my country to be destroyed that don’t wish to annihilate every single Jew on the planet uh will be able to uh rule over Gaza we’re looking for international Partners uh of uh friendly uh Progressive countries in this neighborhood to help us in that and we want to make sure that we return peace to this region but with Hamas in power that’s really difficult okay David mener is is really government spokesperson thank you for joining me this morning on talk let’s talk to Meer elran who is a former IDF de deputy director of military intelligence uh maybe you could tell me Meer thank you for joining me this morning um how much intelligence will have been a major factor in this military operation it was a very major component of this operation no doubt about that you have to understand that the first of all you have to a uh see what the terrain is where the people are exactly what’s happening with their a uh the the ones who are keeping them H over there and of course the overall picture another thing is that you have to be familiar with a changing situation on a scale of seconds because if something changes in a particular case here of course it has a major impact on the on the entire operation so intelligence is supreme in this respect and I think that we can see from the results that this time it was working in a rem man it is absolutely something to be celebrated and loaded in regard to the uh Rescue of those four hostages there’s no doubt about that and well done to the Israeli Army for doing that there W is of course huge concern about civilian casualties in all of this do you share that concern and what do you think will have been done to attempt in some way to limit those because there will be some inevitably in the International Community who say that there will not have been attempt to limit civilian casualties well the problem of casualties and people that are being affected by what’s happening right now in the Gaza Strip for the last eight months is a major concern for all Israelis the problem is who is responsible for this particular situation and unfortunately the basic picture that had people have to understand is that Hamas as a strategy is building its military capacities within the civilian terrain within the civilian environments and this is part of their philosophy I would say they don’t care about their own people they care about the their military goals their terrorist isn’t it wor isn’t it worse actually than not caring about their own people marri don’t they want there to be civilian casualties by embeding I mean I I don’t know what they want but for me it’s enough they don’t care the moment they did they did what it did on October 7th it demonstrates clearly that they do not care about their own people about the gazin the the gazin we care about the gazin more than they do and if you suggest that they manipulate this situation in order to enhance supposedly their legitimacy within the Western World or wherever I think that they are making a major mistake because people will understand eventually that what is happening in Gaza in terms of the humanitarian problem right now and it’s a huge problem and I understand that totally what is happening will eventually mostly cause problems for the Gaza people for the Palestinians in Gaza why doesn’t the international I’m interest I’m interested in this thought on that actually Meer what what why doesn’t the International Community get that because I I mean I I think it’s pretty obvious that Hamas want as many people to die as possible because that is a propaganda of victory for them I think it’s obvious that by putting their technological headquarters in alifa hospital by infiltrating things like unra for example by uh putting you know the other day there was a school that was targeted by Israel and obviously um there there will have been uh problems there for from in terms of Civilian casualties because that is what Hamas wants they want this propaganda Victory why do you think people don’t get that why do why do they always see Israel as the aggressor of the enemy let’s make a differentiation between people at large and people who are in a position to make decisions as far as their governments are concerned people in general are ignorant about what’s happening in all over the world they are not interested and they don’t know what’s happening in Ukraine they don’t know what’s happening in Israel they don’t know what’s happening in Gaza they don’t see it because the press just gives them a very very shallow kind of a picture okay and people have to understand that in order to pass a judgment of what’s happening in a certain area they have to learn a little bit more and they have to understand what is going on as you just mentioned before on the other hand when we talk about governments we see that eight months into the war most of the important countries in the world mostly the Western leading countries the leaders the governments understand exactly what the situation is and they actually react in accordance to the reality of what’s happening in the field and they are not really you know going after the the the the masses the people who demonstrate and you know mostly the the people who demonstrate those who demonstrate are people of Interest mostly people that are instigated by the by the pales iions and this is what we see this is unfortunate but this is I must tell you this is less important than what is the truth on one hand what’s happening as far as the Hamas politics and strategies on the other hand and thirdly the most important thing is that we could Yesterday release our hostages finally from the jail for the custody of the Kamas you know which was in side a major concentration of Palestinian civilians yeah I just want to ask you just finally Meer um one of the major political parties in the UK the labor party has said that it would which looks by all metrics that we have that it will be the next government of this country has said that it will or wants to anyway recognize a Palestinian State what effect if any do you think that would have it will have no effect whatsoever the future role of the Palestinian people which is the major issue for as far as Israel is concerned will be decided in negotiation between Israel and the Palestinians this is something that I think we should strive for we should work for it very very intensely but first of all we have to eliminate Hamas because Hamas is the number one spoiler of the future of the Palestinian people and there should be and there is and there are other people with in the Palestinian people yeah that are looking for and are wishing that the future for them will be totally different from the future or for the present picture of the Palestinians in Gaza which is detriment by Hamas for the last eight months unfortunately okay Meer thank you very much indeed Myer El ran there who is former uh Israeli Army deputy director of military intelligence if you want to react to anything that’s been said in the last 25 minutes fascinating dat still there 0344 499 1000 bring it back to that final point I made Leslie has been in touch says apparently in stor Manifesto there is support for Palestine what is that going to do with policies that benefit us in the UK and then of Meer there saying that it won’t make any difference whatsoever in terms of what happens in Israel and indeed in the Palestinian territories and Gaza stay with us we’re going to speak to the uh Rel of a cousin of someone who’s still being held hostage next here on talk do you think other politicians the K starers who think that apparently 99.9% of women don’t have a pis I don’t believe for a minute that K sta thinks that there are any women who have a penis [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] for [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] across the UK on dab Plus on your smart speaker on your smart TV and on your side this is talk Jackie has been in touch on Twitter and says we need contacts with the death tool in Gaza on the first day of the Iraq War something like 15,000 civilians were killed by us I don’t think we’re in any position to judge the Israelis who have limited casualties in 8 months to 16,000 well that’s certainly the civilian casualty around the civilian casualty death tool that Benin Netanyahu says Hamas figures unsurprisingly are a lot higher and they never tell us how many uh terrorists have been killed either penny has been in touch and says how wonderful those four hostages were rescued uh and they were of course not released apparently in good health but there will be a need for a lot of mental health problems to be dealt with Hamas have said if there is a Ceasar there will be another 7th of October Israel have to defeat Hamas Israel of all my love says Penny uh Claire says uh you said the nightmare for the four rescued hostages is over the night willare will never be over for any of the people connected with this as they will most certainly live with the asmath and PTSD and so on while one person living with the trauma at the moment of having her uh cousin who’s very close to her Aon Burger is still being held by Hamas terrorists is Ashley Baki who we’ve spoken to before Ashley thank you for speaking to us again I I I wonder what your emotions were yesterday well the the first the first time we heard I mean my initial scream in my home was was it a gum was it a gum um and then when I found out the four names I was immediately disappointed that it wasn’t a gum but at the same time so thrilled um for all of them but uh also especially for Noah aram’s family I’ve come to know them very well over the past few months and you know we were all just one big family so anyone coming home we so happy of course you know as family members we have this mixed feeling in our stomach where we see these images of them coming home and hugging their loved ones and we just were jealous we want to hug our loved ones too but we’re so happy for everyone every single person to come come home tell us about uh Noah’s family you say you’re close to them and I know that they’ve had as well as this horrendous trauma that you’re going through as well of having a loved one away no and I returned after the eight-month nightmare but her her mother very unwell that’s right um so that was one of the biggest fears is that her you know her mom wouldn’t survive to see her and she wouldn’t make it back to to see her mom one last time and we’re so happy to know that they’ve been reunited and and and also um alm’s father um I’m not sure if you’re aware of this but they found him dead in his apartment this morning he did not survive his father did not survive to hear the wonderful news of his son being released my goodness I didn’t know that that’s that’s that’s horrendous my word yeah so there’s just so much trauma around everyone um for everyone it’s it’s GNA you can you can see on their faces it’s going to take long time for them to to hopefully get back to being in a good mental place what kind of pressure do you think is still being brought to bear of course the families of the hostages are are not one group there are lots of different people with lots of different opinions which is um in in some ways the beauty of Israel it is a democracy people have different thoughts and different opinions no doubt there’ll be even more pressure on the government now to bring people like aam home how much confidence do you have that the government gets the message and that the IDF will be able to do that although of course it is Hamas terrorists that are holding her and they are the they are the bad guys here exactly so I mean it’s it’s I can only speak on behalf of myself and our family because like you said everybody has a little bit of a different of opinion some people are calling for elections our family is not um we actually think that holding elections right now wouldn’t wouldn’t serve in our best interest to to get a deal uh we do want a deal as you mentioned it is Hamas that is refusing to make the deal despite the fact that it has many innocent people of its own people that are being killed because of this war they don’t care for them it’s strategy so we urge on them to agree to a deal um but we also you know we’ as we’ve seen the the overjoy in our country for four hostages being um returned back home we know that the you know vast majority of our country does support a deal uh to bring them home so um hopefully hopefully this will just bring us one step closer to putting this nightmare to end and and to Bringing peace and calm to the region what are your thoughts of aam today um Ashley what are you what are you thinking about I know you think about her every single day and you’re doing an awful lot of work to raise awareness not least talking to us and we’re delighted to have you on the program again but what are your thoughts of her today especially in the context of the last 24 hours well one of the things um that I’m hoping for is we heard some of the released hostages that came back they said they had been able to see some media and they were able to see their family members and they were able to see our protests in Israel and it gave them a lot of Hope and so I’m really just hoping that AUM is seeing that everything that we’re doing so you know if she’s watching just know that we’re not stopping and we’re not giving up and and and just hang in there and stay strong and you’ll come home um so so that’s all I’ve been thinking about for the past 24 hours is just to to to be here on your media and anywhere I can be just so hope Le AUM will see that we are here for her and to give her hope and to let her know that she’ll be coming home I like a lot of things about you Ashley but one of the things I really like is your humanity and I know you will have been thinking you know there’s so much conversation today about the civilian casualties that happened during the operation to get those four people back we don’t know the number of terrorists we don’t know the number of civilians who were killed and so that will come out but I’m sure you’re I mean I will shed no tears for Hamas terrorists but you know and I know that the people of Gaza the innocent people are going through such horrendous things at the moment absolutely and I mean nobody in the world is even talking about or or has spoken about um the we want to live protest you know just last year over 300,000 people from Gaza left Gaza because they were protesting against Hamas and were being put in jail or or tortured so we really do need to free the people of Gaza from Hamas as well and so um I know I am a person of humanity I see all humans all innocent civilians deserve the right to to live freely and to be able to express themselves and just now you know we’re talking about pride month what about you know LGBT rights in Gaza so we need to bring like a huge reform uh to Gaza and hopefully after this war we’ll be able to rebuild Gaza thank you so much for speaking to me again Ashley we wish you and your family really really well that’s Ashley Baki there is the cousin cousin of aam Berger who is still being held by Hamas terrorists let me know your reaction to this 0344 499 1000 is the number to call um uh where we’ll be talking in just a second about something totally different actually Welsh politics Von geing the new first Minister there getting a vote of no confidence stay with us for that [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] cross the UK on dab Plus on your smart speaker on on your smart TV and on your side this is talk Ule and balam has been in touch he says I despair of our media instead of celebrating the rescue of four Israeli hostages they parth the usual Hamas propaganda and attack Israel well I hope I haven’t been doing that this morning you um we’ve been talking to quite a number of Israeli voices Sally and Siri says it’s true some very sensible and very good friends of mine have swallowed Hamas propaganda Hook Line and Sinker and I avoid discussing it with them the reality is the only source of information they have is BBC News not one has dug a little more deeply it’s sad and a bit frightening I’m so glad your back says s and sorry Sally I would urge you to have those conversations I Know It’s Tricky but we do have to educate people on what the truth is Stuart and and thank you for your very kind message Stuart says if Libra recognize Palestine and the UN do the same the ne very next UN resolution should be to apply sanctions on Palestine for firing rockets in another country and wishing to wipe it off the map and kill all Jews Brian says I do enjoy your programs until Hamas are defeated there can be no peace the fight can only stop once there no threat I’m so glad those hostages are out but until the others released the fight has to go on let’s take a call first call of the day from Abdul en ler Abdul thank you for your call what would you like to say hello hi Abdul you’re on the what would you like say yeah sorry yeah I meanies with with Israeli forces as far as the government is concerned in the sense that they’re probably the most entity City it’s not a great line I’m going to take you off just for the meantime I do want to hear what you have to say we’ll try and take you uh in a minute or two if we get you on a better line um Liz Perkins is a journalist we’re going to talk to now and this is in regard to Von gaffing his leadership is in crisis Von gaffing is of course the new uh first minister of Wales um but he’s had a no confidence vote already so many problems stacking up certainly in regard to 200,000 donation huge amount of money in Welsh politics Liz thank you for joining us just outline the problems that Von gaffing has well they’re pretty king-sized problems that’s for sure I mean the situation started really when he uh bid to become first minister of Wales he accepted A2 200,000 donation of a man in charge of a firm who had been convicted of environmental offenses the easiest way to solve this would obviously to be to hand that money back however he continued to use that money for his campaign he said he’s done nothing wrong however there are people within the labor party in Wales and also the opposition in Wales who feel that it was the wrong thing to do as you can imagine and um this rout has been going on and on and on and it’s not going away however he faced this no confidence vote lost it and is still in chargeing Wales which but how I mean many people will say hold on a second here how can you lose a new confidence vote and still be in charge just talk us through the mechanics of that laser maybe there aren’t any mechanics maybe he’s just ignoring it well exactly I mean even if you do in no and which he did by two votes because two labor members were apparently ill and he he can still remain in the job you do not have to step down which seems somewhat surprising given in the rest of the country if you no confidence vote that you do have to leave so uh that’s why he is carrying on regardless and is asking new start the people of Wales want a new start as well because 57% of people people have indicated that they don’t have a proper confidence in what he is doing right now so uh yeah it doesn’t really make for happy reading some of the polling actually if there was a Welsh government election tomorrow where labor would take a hit as a result of this Scandal I mean h are yourself up there in Scotland looks like a sort of um political MTH methusa when it comes to uh when it comes to uh Von gaffing I mean he’s literally been in the job weeks and already he’s under such incredible fire but at the same time labor have been in par in Wales for all of the time that Devolution has been there in Wales is there any sense that this will have a greater effect on W on labor not just in terms of their senth seats and the Welsh assembly but also in terms of the election in a few weeks time because labor are are very strong in wheels and and have to do well in Wheels to win nationally as well you’re completely right and what is really really curious about the polling around this is that in terms of Westminster 45% of people in Wales will vote labor however if it came to a senate election tomorrow it would only be 30% so they almost looking differently at what’s going on in Westminster than they do in terms of what’s going on in the Welsh government which is a lucky thing for Sakia starma however this could prove to be a real headache for him because let’s face it he’s had a lot of issues around various personalities within labor whether it’s Angela Raina or Dian ABT I know those situations have been dealt with and are now resolved but this isn’t really helpful is it because you’re clearly drawing comparisons with what’s going on in Wales and what potentially could go on in the rest of the country so I mean really speaking he needs to deal with it he said before that he backs War Gein but you just think how yeah well well actually that leads me on to my final question Liz actually about the candidates the Labor candidates in this election because I’m sure there are candidates who are members of the Senate although they can’t be they can’t be both an MP and member of the Senate but I’m sure there are candidates who are trying to themselves from Von gaffing what are the Labor candidates actually saying about this because clearly this is a massive embarrassment for them they’d much rather talk about I’m sure uh the very popular K starmer on the National Labor party rather than the problems they’re having on their own doorstep absolutely and the thing is I mean privately if you talk to certain labor MPS they weren’t terribly impressed by VOR Gein when he first got the job anyway so uh you can imagine they don’t particularly want him on the campaign trail with them what I found quite interesting was when Arma did come to Wales he did actually have a photo call with VOR gethin so I think he’s one of the few people who does want to be associated with him but whether he will do in the coming weeks ahead I don’t know because clearly Von GTH has been described as a dead man walking and it’s just a matter of time really as to what is you know when he’s going to go I would imagine I mean he seems to think that he’s going to be able to to keep going um I just not sure that he can to be honest I mean you even got people in the labor party who are willing to knife him quite publicly actually and saying look we’ll give you the £200,000 to pay back the loan that’s not a problem at all and he’s refusing to take it so uh it’s interesting times here in Wales but clearly you know labor do have the advantage in the Westminster election at least Liz uh love talking to you thank you very much let’s have you on again to bring us up to date on another occasion absolutely great Liz Perkins there who’s a journalist in Wales let me know your thoughts if you’re in Wales or maybe if you’re not 0344 499 1000 as promised we will talk to Abdul we’re after the break I want to hear what he has to say we’re also going to talk about another topic which is labor announcing plans to fix the prisons crisis it’s definitely a crisis stay with us here on talk James well unleash does not interview people who’ve just got a new book out we talk about the issues of the day the things that are really winding people up most of all I want you on the phone Saturday night 7:00 be warmed [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] across the UK on dab Plus on your smart speaker on your smart TV and on your side this is talk well as promised we’ve got Abdul back from ler on a better line Abdul uh sorry about the problems there uh tell us your thoughts what you’re going to say on these hostage rescues what do you make of it oh it seems even worse Line This Time nope we haven’t got Abdul we will try to have him uh let’s see if we can if we can get him let’s go to the next guest we’re going to talk about uh the problems in prisons because labor has said it’s going to take as they put decisions necessary to break the planning lock on prisons it’s a really interesting question actually because so many people say oh I don’t want a prison in my backyard well actually a prison might be a good thing for a community because it’s secure first of all but also the people inside are not you’re not going to have to interact with them but it provides jobs their service needs there are all sorts of issues there there are just not enough prison places in this country and one man who knows about it really well is David Shipley who’s a prison reform Advocate David thanks for joining me on the program today how are you I’m good thanks Peter how are you um very well thank you um labor has announced it would bring together prison Governors local employers to create employment councils that are going to create and support links into the local community which can provide training and jobs to support offenders they’re also talking about more prison places what do you make of this plan can it work uh well I think they’re they’re right in their assessment of the problem there is a crisis in the prison system but their Solutions essentially seem to be to do what the Tories are doing but do it slightly faster uh so the the flagship thing about using the Secretary of State’s powers to accelerate the building of Prisons great but the 20,000 places they’re talking about building will only create enough capacity for the projected growth in the prison population so at the moment we’re building about a 100 new places a week but we’re adding about 200 people a week to the prison system so sort of a demand is outstripping Supply in terms of those uh in terms of those places even already even before we start yes and if if we do build those 20,000 places to the schedule that will literally be taken up by the by the growth in the prison population over that time period I mean I think using powers to get important infrastructure built quickly and and and Skip through planning is probably a good idea in lots of areas for this country um but labor don’t really seem to have any significant plan here the the employers councils they’re talking about those sorts of things already exist plenty of prison Governors do Outreach with local employers they work with them but the reality is what’s going on in our prisons is making people more likely to reoffend and less likely to be able to get a job after release and that’s that’s the issue we have to fix what happens within the prison not just make more of them it’s interesting in terms of the running of those prisons because it is slightly different obviously Scotland Wales Northern Ireland and so on is there any part of the UK uh we’ll talk about maybe other parts of the world as well where this is is Right are there any examples either in the UK where things are going better than they are in England for example or do we have to look to International models I mean how do we fix this that’s a great question I think the UK system generally is is not good um there are some prisons which are bucking the trend though most prisons are pretty bad but if you look at the the open prison estate for example there you’ve got lower risk prisoners able to go out every day to work or and pay taxes or to study at a local college and they’re actually really good at reducing reoffending and they’re cheaper to run and they’re easier to build because they tend to be on large sites where you can add more capacity pretty easily so that I think is a place in the UK where we do see good practice and even then within the closed prisons there are better examples so um chelsford was in a really bad State a couple of years ago and under its its relatively new governor it now seems to be turning turning a corner it’s becoming less violent there’s you know fewer drug incidents and that sort of thing so it’s a good leadership can make a difference and I think that’s the other piece here a lot of the moj’s leadership and the whole leadership culture in our prisons is is really flawed um we can also look overseas at places like Norway where they they had a system very much like ours you know kind of a few decades ago and then went to a system that’s more focused on on reform and re Rehabilitation and people might challenge that by say well we don’t want prisons to be soft but actually if you look at the system we’ve got now most prisoners spend 22 or more hours a day sitting on their bunk beds or lying on their bunk beds in their cell doing nothing that’s not benefiting anyone and and we pay almost £50,000 per Place per year for them to do that um what we should have is a prison system where people are able to work study you know or be in educations they’re actually developing skills they are you know in the habit of getting up every day to do something rather than just just kind of rotting on their bunk beds and that would be cheaper in lots of ways to run if we went into the open prison model but also would reduce reoffending got remember 40% of people released from prison are reconvicted within a year and at the moment one sixth of the prison population of people have been released and then being recalled to prison so what we’re doing is just not working okay um thank you David really appreciate that David Shipley prison reform Advocate we going to try Abdul one last time hopefully have a good Line This Time Abdul give us a ring on 0344 499 1000 Abdul what would you like to say yeah I think Third Time Lucky maybe yeah we got you ey yeah okay now as far as look um hostage is concerned first of all you know I mean look it’s it’s it’s a hot breaking situation whereby people are taken kidnapped you know obviously but he’s on both sides um Peter I mean in the sense that you look at the Palestinians who were taken and then released they were gaunt one of them actually was told by the doctors you got now after all the torture you’ve been undergoing you got very little time left to live I mean look at look at the difference you know what they’ve been undergoing and what the it’s not just now for decades even before Hamas were even thought of even before that thought came to mind you know decades before Palestinians have undergoing persecution brutality and I mean I feel in a sense sorry for Israel because they’re the most probably one of the most hated entities in the world today because of because of the actions theyve taken since the 7th of October on the 8th of October there was a hostage deal that Hamas um stated that they wanted that was rejected so this should but I mean Hamas obviously I’m sure you’ll agree with me Abdul that Hamas shouldn’t have taken the those hostages in the first place I mean they’ve created problems for themselves through their terrorism you see the thing is um Peter look you see the word terrorism can be Loosely um described for anybody in the sense that look but you think are terrorists don’t you is what Israel has been doing for decades before even Hamas that’s what I’m saying even before Hamas that that is a that is a form of terrorism you know before H Hamas are terrorist Abdul obviously nobody agrees with taking the life of any innocent person nobody agrees with brutality of any innocent person I mean I I would be if I was there present on the 7th of October I can guarantee you if any innocent person was in the line of fire I would take a bullet for them regardless of their religious ra background or race or whatever so you agree that Hamas are terrorists I I am I am I would I would take a bullet for any innocent person regardless of their whatever background they’re from can I just can I just ask for a yes or no Abdul do you think Hamas or terrorist you see when you describe terrorism look I I mean look what this say their actions have been appalling I don’t agree with Hamas what they have done I don’t agree I’m not I’m not an advocate for Hamas I don’t agree with Hamas but the point is we have to look at the bigger picture the point is how did Hamas come about Peter the thing is look according to we to read what we understand it was a creation of um Netanyahu and his his his um I don’t think Hamas was created by Netanyahu no as opposition to yasat if you read it up you look it up besides they’ve been they’ve been given funding for so long right the thing is but nobody has to be a terrorist organization Abdul nobody has to do what Hamas or doing it’s not as long as they’re forced into those actions also also nobody has to do what Israel has been doing they’ve been I mean according to a law professor what’s his name again um uh it’s arer Holocaust Survivor by the way and he’s a law professor he States categorically he goes like myself many and many many thousands of Holocaust Survivors State categorically this is a genocide and this is ethnic cleansing they State I mean they they know what they’ve been through they’ve been through it so they understand more far better than we do so they saying this is a genocide this is ethnic cleansing and this should this Israel should be stopped so what I’m saying is look well there’s an easy way to stop Israel first of all I don’t agree with you that it’s genocide or ethnic Lansing but for but let’s let’s set that to one side for a second there’s a very easy way for what’s happening in Gaza to stop and that is for Hamas to stop what it is doing and for them to give all the hostages back surely that would be a responsible course of action so would would you agree that all the Palestinian people who been taken as hostages without charge they should also be released well it’s it’s it’s not it’s more complex that and you know it in the in the sense that there are people who are in Israeli jails who are Palestinians some of whom have broken the law perhaps some haven’t there there may well be a negotiation in that but there’s no doubt whatsoever that the people who have been taken hostage by Hamas terrorists at the Nova Festival are innocent people so it’s not it’s a false it’s a false argument it’s not equivalent you should you should you should watch How I stopped being a Zionist by I forgot the young gentleman’s name he he he was he was proper anti Palestinian ask you you just watched that clip he was about 10 minutes long how I stopped being a Zionist you you that will explain better than I can of what he saw he goes I if I was I was just there in the west I was just a West Bank for six hours he goes if I just six hours has changed my perception completely well I’ve been the I’ve been to the West Bank too Abdul and my perception hasn’t changed listen thank you for your call we got to leave it there um I I will will no doubt speak in future that’s Abdul there in last we finally got him on a line there so thank you to him even though I disagree fundamentally with many many points that he made there he also wouldn’t categorically say that he thought himas were terrorist which I obviously completely disagree with we’re going to talk uh in the next St more about Michael Mosley as well we’re going to talk about why smiley face speeding signs are making drivers go quicker and we’ll take more of your calls text and tweets as well 0344 499 1000 is the number to call stay with us [Music] [Music] e [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] is talk well a very good afternoon this is talk thank you very much indeed for your company I’m Peter Cardwell here until 1:00 and then Russell Quark is taking over between 1 and 4: I’ll be back during the week lots to talk about because of course there is the uh debate head-to-head between sunak and starmer in Grimsby on Wednesday night I’ll be there I’ll be presenting on uh Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday as well lots to talk about today there was well including a reformed teenage terway who vied to go straight after appearing on the ITV Jeremy Kyle show or colleague Jeremy Kyle after getting his first ASO for a Crim spree age 12 admits he has a real problem with authority after assaulting a police officer in a booy night out can you ever reform people we’re talking about prisons a second ago actually and Matt has been in touch on WhatsApp he says we have free labor in the prison system use prisoners to build roads clean streets and repair our crumbling infrastructure lots of people getting in touch on all sorts of issues you can too 0 34449 91000 is the number to call you can text me at 72 with the word talk in your text tweet me at talktv we have a tweet actually on migrants from Cruella he says how about selling migrant sending migrants home relieve the strain the vacancies are purely a supply and demand issue send the demand back to their own countries and we won’t need to supply more foreigners um also on Michael Mosley the breaking news this morning that he his body has been found Greek police telling us that a lot lots of tributes to him including from Julian who says his wife Dr CLA Bailey created a set of low carb recipes to Aid weight loss for diabetics reminding us of her rule as well as Dr Mosley’s rule as well broadcaster uh TV Doctor someone who wrote a lot of books heal we had a diabetic person who messaged earlier said really helped uh them deal with that um let’s take a call first before we go to our main story on the on the teenage tarow who’s clear clearly not reformed and Bob I meant to take before the break but then I got into a much longer discussion with Abdul than IID originally thought I would Bob thanks for waiting um I know there’s a lot of election news this week we’re expecting the manifestos from both the conservative labor and the liberal Democrats to come out what do you make of Rishi sunak Rule and all of this we talked about dday earlier in the week and so and of you any any sympathy for him what do you make of it hi Peter uh well to be honest I I took um grievance with your two panelists earlier who said they had um sympathy and felt pity for him yeah personally I don’t this is a guy who was part of the conspiracy to get rid of Boris not that I supported Boris in the first place um but they he conspired to get rid of him so that he could have the job he’s now got but so so because of that ruthlessness you think that actually you shouldn’t have sympathy for him when he’s in trouble well exactly I mean at the end of the day all he’s done is shown he is not at all suitable for the job you know in any way shape you don’t think he should have been prime minister even in the first place even even before all these gaffs in the last couple of weeks no at the end of the day I mean I realize that we don’t have a presidential system where we actually vote for the character involved but we do in a certain sense because we vote for the party that we want to lead the country and we know at the time who is going to lead that party yeah and a lot a lot of people say that Bob you’re absolutely right I remember my former housemate used to say oh I don’t know whether I’m voting for Boris or voting for Jeremy Corbin well that was the the the idea at that stage and I start saying well you’re not actually voting for any of them because either of them because neither of them stands in the constituency in which we at that point live but a lot of people do see it that way don’t they Bob yeah absolutely and and you know in in reality you can’t blame people from seeing it that way yeah of course of course because that is the way our system is set up I wonder if I could ask you just in regard to the uh rumors certainly it’s been reported in the Sunday Times this week but apparently some uh cabinet members are saying that RI Shak should have a a back seat in this election uh that he shouldn’t be front and center although he will be on Wednesday night when he is having the debate with Kier starmer I wonder what you think of that Bob whether he can be sort of hidden away maybe that might help the conservatives in some way I don’t think it will to be honest um do you think he should be though well what is the point of having having him as the leader of the conservative party and the Prime Minister and then trying to hide him in a Cupboard when it comes to the general election or a fridge could hide him in a fridge Bob oh hell yeah don’t forget that one yeah fridges can hide Prime Ministers as well uh Bob thank you for your thoughts really appreciate them that was Bob in Ludo there thanks to him uh for uh giving giving us giving us a call I want to talk n about a fascinating story about a teenage terway he vowed to go straight I told my colleague Jeremy Kyle on his it TV program a few years ago that after getting his first asbo for a crime spre age 12 he admitted he has a real problem with authority after assaulting a police officer in a boozy night out his name is Danny Oakley he’s now 30 he claimed to have turned over a new Leaf since racking up 70 offences he seemed to have left his lsh past behind him says the meal on Sunday when he came out as gay and promised to devote his life to helping LGBT kids from tough backgrounds after being elected a qualities officer at colleague at College I should say but Botho and his brother Ricky who were known as the as Bros love that one uh apparently terrorized neighbors across their estate in wilver Hampton for years and then we’re on to the Jeremy Kyle show to try to uh sort of straighten them out or get a bit of advice and so on but now he’s pleaded guilty at D magist Court assaulting a police officer after abusing night out well there’s absolutely no uh excuse ever for assaulting a police officer and one former police officer you wouldn’t get too near if you tried to assault him is Peter Blackley former Metropolitan Police detective uh who I certainly wouldn’t mess with Peter what do you make of this allegedly reformed teenage terway can leopards ever really change their spot well sometimes they do but in my experience and recent experience of speaking of people who have not long come out of prison the sentences that really work are the long jail sentences not all the time I accept but in the main and now this work sh Mr Oakley who we’re talking about today he actually says that when he got a 28 day prison sentence that did have a significant effect upon him but clearly that effect wasn’t significant enough if perhaps he’d had a much longer child term then the effect might have been greater and his determination to live a law abiding life might have had a bit more credibility as it stands he’s been subject to asbos in the past and he supports me again in his words by saying that asbo was merely a badge of honor type of thing um it just gave him notoriety because this was the big thing wasn’t it in under under the Blair years these asbos were brought in antisocial Behavior orders did they have any real effect or as he said badge of honor um on some people wearing them with pride they quickly faded away Into Obscurity as do so many Community orders I researched some statistics by Kent Police only a few short months ago and the details that were released said what their officers were arresting people for and nearly 50% of arrests made by officers were for breaching orders they’re a waste of time lengthy jail terms work orders like Community orders and such like don’t criminals take the Mickey turn up late if at all probation officers and other staff do not rule the roost and it’s just a ruse and a complete waste of time ever a man you say long prison s uh prison um sentences work and I agree with you and that it takes these people off the streets and it means they can’t cause absolute havoc and misery to their to their neighbors and to their neighborhoods I wonder though is there any real reform I mean you’re you’re a very experienced police officer when you send people who are I mean I don’t want to trivialize this but it relatively low level crime and antisocial Behavior order although some of the things that this person is is accused of and indeed has been convicted of are very very very serious crimes but it we’re not talking kind of murder and robbery and rape here uh we are talking about things that are a little bit lower level than that although to the victims of course they’ll always feel serious but I wonder I mean prison works in the sense that it takes people away but when they come out of prison as the vast majority of people do come out of prison unless you’re a rose Wester we and cousins or someone like that is there any reform within that with some people do some people come out and say yep see the ER of my ways I’ve been rehabilitated because it seems to me that the recidivism real is just so high well first of all you’ve raised my blood pressure today by using that Dreadful expression lowlevel crimes it’s not lowlevel if your house is burgw your car Sten your phone stolen your bike stolen you’re a victim of Thro or you’re a shopkeeper where shoplifters play you every day low level is such an insult back to your point about prison punishment without Rehabilitation is of course a complete waste of time but when a prisoner serves a lengthy child term they can access the necessary courses talking therapies and the such like which in prison often have a really good effect on people because it enables them to confront their offending admit to it realize the damage they’ve look up the consequences of it because they’re in jail for a long time and they come out determined never go out to prison again it’s interesting when you see people like Danny Oakley and his brother on uh programs like the Jeremy Kyle show and and saying no I’m going to go straight and going to reform and so on I mean is that is that actually possible without help I mean you and I Peter know right from wrong uh hope hopefully in my case no right from wrong but are there people who are just bad yes of course there are and there are some people that suffer from a dreadful lack of parenting or very bad parenting or being raised by other carers who do not instill into them respect for others respect for the law respect for your environment and so on and so forth and consequently they are just to their very core bad people these people often do not have interventions early enough and by that I mean a arrest charge conviction and suitable punitive punishment and consequently we only really hear about them when they go on inevitably to commit horrendous crimes that create victims and so much pain and suffering absolutely Peter you speak a lot of sense thank you very much indeed that’s Peter Blacky there who is a former metropan police detective uh thank you to Neil in uh what he describes as labor the labor destroyed 20 M hour People’s non-democratic Republic of Wales it’s quite quite quite the title there Neil um he says labor have destroyed Wheels watch them destroy the UK starmer visits Wheels then takes a private jet to Scotland to praise green energy jobs and gets little media coverage Priceless uh he’s not the only leader certainly richy SE that going around his helicopter and his Planes and I wonder what a d if he gets there perhaps paddle board uh Sue has been in touch and says great program just to say about the cost of living in Australia it’s about double in this country also I know someone living in Australia uh in Sydney actually he played a huge rental on his house so doctors and teachers should remember this when they leave this country you’re absolutely right actually I have a relative who moved to Sydney and the house prices there are very very high um Bob in Edinburgh has been in touch and says in Edinburgh they close streets to put in parking for these cargo bikes bikes we were talking about a little bit earlier on these huge cargo bikes up to half a ton if they’re fully loaded Bob says um front loaders for kids they’re lethal any parent uh show uh show use um anybody uh who uses them any parent who uses them should be prosecuted for child endangerment they deliberately put their kids at risk in traffic in front of themselves to Virtue signal meanwhile the congestion charges uh C the congestion that causes is used to justify ules says Bob and Edinburgh so a lack of support there from Bob and Edinburgh I think there’s a lot uh more to be looked into on that and we’ll certainly do that on this program uh we’re also going to be talking not just about that issue but why smiley face speeding signs are making drivers go more quickly you know when you’re sort of driving down off and driving down a hill and uh they um have I drove through one of these recently actually in France when it was in Sp in France and it flashes in red if you’re going too quickly which I was on that occasion um or or there’s a sort of smiley face if you’re if you’re if you’re not basically also a fast train line finished two years ago you still can’t use it one Earth is going on there we’re going to talk to Simon cuer about that and also look ahead to not just Labor’s Manifesto but also the conservatives and uh the liberal Democrats as well all come out this week huge political week coming up I’ll be up in grim be for the uh face off between Kier starmer and rishy sunak who won’t be hidden away in a Cupboard or indeed in a fridge because of uh what some cabinet ministers are saying they’re saying that riak should pay play a less prominent role in the campaign what do you think of that do you think Richi Sak is a liability rather than an asset maybe you’re a massive cure St armor fan I’d love to hear from you if you are or maybe you think Ed dav’s wonderful on his paddle board 0344 499 1000 is the number to call and uh plenty more to discuss between 9 and 1:00 here on talk it’s the home of Common Sense we’re here weekdays 1 p.m. Monday to Friday make sure you’re there we’ll be debating discussing chewing the fat and maybe having the odd R over the things that matter to you [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] the UK on dab Plus on your smart speaker on on your smart TV and on your side this is talk well thank you to everybody who’s been in touch on Twitter um Robert ree says we just commemorated 80 years of DayDay with the greatest Generation give the ultimate sacrifice do you think we would be holding talks with the Nazis about a ceasefire and don’t forget what we did to Dresden when you talk about civilian casualties absolutely Robert it’s a reasonable comparison Sue says how anyone can have the nerve to criticize Israel for rescuing their four hostages is beyond belief if Hamas terrorists had not committed the attack on the 7th of October and had they not taken hostages there would have been no civilian casualties in the Palestinian territories ffs says so Arthur says if migration is the answer to a booming economy shouldn’t the UK be flowing with rivers of gold and Roads made from diamonds that’ be nice wouldn’t it um olle says how does New Zealand manage to run a sophisticated economy including great health care and with a population of just 5 million yet the UK can’t seem to do anything right with 67 million we have all the people we need we just need to organize ourselves far better I I think I think there’s a lot in that OE actually and a lot of the a lot of the problems in our country are often about reform uh rather than reforming systems I mean not the political party reforming systems and getting the best out of those systems because there’s so much bloed bureaucracy there’s so much waste as well and look the bigger things are the more waste there’s going to be that’s that’s the nature of things but just getting a grip and and I don’t know I don’t feel that any party has a grip on things at the moment maybe they will after the election I don’t know we’ll see what the manifesto said this week but first of all I want to talk about smiley face speeding signs that are actually making drivers go more quickly um we’re going to talk to Scott Dixon now who is a motoring disputes expert um Scott this seems a bit weird because surely the point is to get the smiley emoji but actually people are trying to get the highest speed they can in some areas tell us your thoughts on this well my thoughts are it’s clearly just not enforceable is it it’s it’s merely an information board and it’s simply it displays the speed that you’re going at and if if it points back to what you were saying earlier on um about everything being done on the cheap and there apparently a lack of resource to actually uh enforce anything really and there needs to be um proactive deployment of speed cameras and the police generally if they’re going to and want to catch Speeders yeah and it’s interesting actually that research from the transport research laboratory finds the devices were most effective in the first week after they were installed so it actually kind of wears off as a as a as a disincentive to speed that’s right and people get get wise to where the the cameras are or these information boards and an information board doesn’t actually do anything really does it you know um emojis simply trivialize road safety and it’s clearly a big problem and it’s a if if I’m driving and I I have a sort of I don’t drive that much these days cuz I live in London but I was driving quite a lot over the last week in France but and when you have those kind of smiley faces like sometimes they they do I suppose actually they make me think anyway oh good I’m I’m within the speed limit I’m not going to get fined I’m not going to get caught and also you know you’re being a responsible driver but when it flashes up at you know you’re seven miles over the speed limit or whatever you do I I generally do slow down a bit but clearly there’s evidence that people are just ignoring them because they know they’re not like speed guns they’re not going to Res in a fine they’re merely as you say a bit of information that’s right and and I’m the same as you in so far as if I see um one of these signs I will slow down and bring me speed down but the bigger problem here is you know if boy Racers are are seeing them as an incentive to speed who’s to say that that may be drug driving you know if there was proactive enforcement and they would catch and not just the boy races but but also um maybe drug driving and other offenses maybe the cars are taxed or insured moted and I mean the RC released a they did a press release earlier this week about Foliage for example 75% of motorists have found um you know the the 30 mph round signs and when you’re approaching towns and Villages they’re covered by foliage so this is another problem as well well um it’s just no cohesive strategy to do anything properly when it comes to Road Safety whether it’s um speed enforcement or signage filling in Poles yeah filling in Poles um that’s always a big one isn’t it um you know if every if things were done properly as you said earlier on New Zealand a population of five million um they won’t have the half the problems that we have and there’s just too much bureaucracy and everything’s done on the cheap and okay okay yeah that that’s that’s how I see it Scott thank you for your perspective on that Scott Dixon is a muring disputes expert appreciate that thanks also to Rosie bissix in uh W South Wales who says um great show how embarrassing for us in Wales the so-called first minister blubbing went presented with a vote of no confidence in the Senate the Welsh assembly uh when it is successfully brought against him he sitting in the top chair with fingers in his ears going la la la I’m embarrassed and everyone I know is too Wales has become the laughing stock of the UK well really interesting one Rosie and that Wales is is sort of the the microcosm of how uh labor might run the country I mean it is the best example the most extensive example we have of how labor operates and over such a long period of time as well Leslie says starmer manifest will mean nothing the unions are insisting he doesn’t drop some of their demands one one once in par at the left of his party will take control real fears over that Lesley certainly although I’m not sure they can he is a lot more leftwing than people think he is he’s not Blair 2.0 by a stretch of the imagination Steven has given us a ring 0344 4991 th000 is the number here has called Steven you’re very welcome to the program what point would you like to make um just on um the taxation issue both parties are saying they’re going to freeze tax on income but uh we do need more tax revenue if we’re going to grow the economy by encouraging investment in infrastructure and so forth and I thought how about doing what the USA do and every UK passport holder wherever they are in the UK is subject to UK income tax so it I’m an expert but I pay more tax than the UK rate but if somebody’s living in a tax Haven then they would be required to pay tax to contribute to the country that provides them their passport interesting yeah I think that’s a very very interesting point there are of course people uh in the UK who don’t have passports a lot of people in the UK who don’t pay tax don’t don’t pay income tax anyway although everybody if you’re buying even a bar of chocolate you’ve paid VAT on that for example um it’s interesting I mean would you be happy to receive a tax bill you’re sitting there in France would you be happy to receive a tax bill from the UK yes certainly well actually I wouldn’t because under double it wouldn’t affect people who are paying taxes so in France for example I probably pay higher tax I pay National Insurance on my pension so I don’t have to pay that if I’m in the UK yes so it wouldn’t affect me but it would affect the millionaires who are HED up in Monaco who pay no income tax whatsoever in wealth that’s drained from the UK so they can have a a business in the UK take dividend payments say of a million pounds a year and pay no income tax on it that’s surely wrong if they were American they would be chased by the FED for taxes interesting interesting well Stephen thank you for those points um I I I think it would be a brave political party that would put that forward but yes a very very interesting one nonetheless and we’re going to talk in a minute to Simon CER we have one yesterday but I just love them as a guest we’re going to have them one again today about a TR in line that was finished two years ago you still can’t use it uh we’ll trying to work out why also taking some of your calls texts and tweets as well in the next half hour I’m here for another 31 and a half minutes uh before Russell Quirk takes over I’m also here during the week actually on Thursday and Friday do Drive between 4:00 and 7:00 in the afternoon of course and next weekend between 10 and 1 Saturday and Sunday 10: and 1 Thursday and Friday 4: till 7 I’ll be out in the B in Grimsby this week as well uh because sunak and starm are having a big debate there I’ll be heading up there uh later in the week as well uh so stay with us we’ll discuss this this tree in line and why you still can’t ride it seems thoroughly bizarre stay with us here on talk [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] across the UK on dab Plus on your smart speaker on your smart TV and on your sign this is talk well this is a bizarre story uh it’s the East Coast Mainline uh there have been major improvements to the London Edinburgh uh there are meant to be London edenburgh Journey time changes a lots of people obviously go on that big line but apparently they’re still squabbling about the timetable this is more than two years on after engineering Works were finished no confirmed date for the start of improved Services well the Guru of travel in this country is of course Simon cder who I spoke to yesterday but just thought let’s speak to him again today cuz he’s great um Simon is travel correspondent with the independent Simon what in Arthur’s going on here okay well look let me lead you to a story in the times Sunday times today which actually of course you can read for free because the pay walls down this is by the excellent transport correspondent Nicholas Helen and it’s basically headlined they finished the train line two years ago you still can’t ride it now Nicholas didn’t write the headline and it is a little perhaps overd dramatic but let me give you all the background we’re talking here Peter about the East Coast Mainline which runs from London Kings cross through Yorkshire to Northeast England onwards to Southern Scotland and the main part of it is the line which goes Edinburgh Newcastle York London now they have actually been doing all kinds of things in terms of um improving the uh uh system over sorry about that they’ be doing all kinds of things improving the system of um signaling getting much much better uh increases in the amount of trains that can get onto the line but unfortunately this is the one part of the network where things have actually improved since covid you got passenger numbers coming back to more than they were before the pandemic which means there’s loads of demand for people to run trains they want to accelerate theour Journey between Edinburgh and London at the moment the fastest Train’s about 4 hours 20 minutes you should be able to do it in 4 hours they want to add extra trains from Newcastle make it three trains an hour instead of two but crucially also connect all those places particularly in Northeast England and in Yorkshire places like Bradford which don’t have a proper service to London middles BR and cleps no direct trains um connect all those and the freight operators want to um run more trains on it as well which of course we’d all be in favor of getting more lorries off the M1 and the A1 but unfortunately even though they managed to complete the line um what two years ago they haven’t actually got round to squeezing more trains on they were going to do it this December they’ve decided it’s too difficult and so here we are with improved infrastructure with the potential for running more train and yet nothing is happening it’s just a I suppose one more example to go to your political um realm Peter where there’s just sort of not been anything happening no sense of moving forward and so people are just stuck cramming onto um inadequate trains well let’s talk a little bit about politics actually because we’ve got the manifestos coming out this week Imagine there wasn’t a democracy but a sort of curcy uh what would you do uh if you what do you think the political party should be looking at the me problems in regard to transport because you’re the guru you know this back to front and there are many problems they’ll be facing uh what do you think they should put in their manifestos this week we’ve got labor conservatives liberal Democrats what sort of policies do you think would be winners or or maybe just things that need to be done maybe they be incredibly unpopular and very very expensive but just things that need to be done that’s such a great question thank you and if you ever seen me running for Parliament take me out and shoot me Peter it’s much easier talking about what should be done than actually doing it but look the the the uh incoming Chancellor whoever it he or she might be is just going to take one look at the 7.5 billion pounds being Plum being being poured from taxpayers many of whom Don’t Go Near a train into keeping a decrepit and deteriorating Railway going they’ve got to turn that around best way to do that is actually reform fairs but that’s going to mean that lots of people will pay more than they do now which is going to be incredibly unpopular but actually necessary so that’s the first thing then secondly actually and this would solve the problem we’ve just been talking about on the east’s mainline um hs2 will finally be built all the way to leads as it was supposed to be all the way to Manchester as it was supposed to be um you might as well do the whole thing now rather than halfway through the 21st century um people thinking why on Earth didn’t those useless people in the 2020s build the whole flipping thing um but then there’s Aviation and of course we have the worlds you can perhaps hear the plane going overhead I’m in South London here going into Heath R airport one every minute or so that’s because we’ve got the world’s busiest two Runway airport London Heathrow and the busiest single Runway airport Gatwick um and uh we need more capacity it’s incredibly unpopular the way to do it probably is to add a new Runway at Gatwick and at Heathrow and at stanstead but you can be the one Peter who who takes a political Flack for that everyone knows it’s sort of necessary nobody who lives in those areas wants it to happen and actually probably a a real expansion at Gatwick is the least damaging option in terms of the number of passengers affected and apart from that just allow competition to flourish it’s done wonders for Aviation I want to see and this is what I would Champion uh I would lead on reduce the fairs going to the aisle of white it’s ridiculous August bank holiday weekend normal times you can’t get there for pretty much under 300 return you and me in a car going from Portsmouth to fishborn and back so get some more competition in there competition does wonderful things even if you’re an old socialist you realize what brilliant uh uh things it can deliver in the realm of Transport okay Simon thank you very much inde Simon CER there uh bring us up sub today about the train line and also the cuer manifesto we’ll talk about more about manifestos in a minute and actually asking you what do you want to see in the manifestos from those different uh parties labor the liberal Democrats and the conservatives manifestos out this week uh just on debates Jim has been in touch from belast he says Peter there have been a recent seven uh party debate that was on Friday night you’re right we talked about that yesterday um England Scotland and Wales are being represented why is Northern Ireland not being invited as it is as it is a UK general election well Jim you make a really good point on actually of course the uh Democratic Union sanin F the two biggest parties in Northern Ireland are are bigger um certainly by pooling and certainly by uh the number of um seats they have anyway than some of the parties that were represented on uh Friday nights debate for example but I think the uh idea of the broadcasters would have is that whilst you have in England Scotland and Wales parties like reform UK the greens uh smaller parties that are uh feeding candidates right throughout those mostly they’re not Northern Ireland now reform UK as Jim will know have a linkup with a party in Northern Ireland called traditional unionist voice the green party is actually the sort of Irish green party they they Irish party North and South will run in Northern Ireland but they don’t really have a hope of being elect getting MPS elected so really the parties that will be asking for people’s votes in Northern Ireland and are likely to get MP positions are perhaps the five main parties which of course Jim will be familiar with the Democratic Union and shenan as I mentioned also the Ula unionists uh and the stlp and the alliance party as well so they’ll be BBC debates in the in Northern Ireland also UTV the station I used to work for will have a tun debate as well in leader interviews and so on so they’ll say that that actually sort of ticks the box for that because the DP and shinan for example aren’t running in the rest of the United Kingdom so actually what would be the point in having a sort of national uh debate that they’re part of but Jim I I I get your I certainly get your frustration but sometimes these can be a bit unwieldy and I think we find that on Friday night that seven was perhaps too many although it was reasonably chared I thought by Michelle Hussein Brian has been in touch and says the chat from France expressed uh money going abroad out of our daily economy he is right it is that money that leaves our economy devoid of masses of our money uh would be better spent by putting a de on it and spent back in our economy uh to make it come back well Brian thank you for that one more call I want to take from Tom who is in rugby Tom has given me a ring at 0344 499 1000 Tom you’re very welcome to the program what point would you like to make happy the first can I confirm I’m not I’m not running for Parliament okay uh second with regard to the rise of lawlessness in our society when I was a kid I was both at church and school was taught the Ten Commandments don’t steal don’t lie don’t murder respect people especially your parents now as a society we seem to have largely scrap that and what do we put in its place diversity inclusivity equity in other words just work nonsense it seems to me that we if you if you scrap your heritage your tral heritage of of values you’ve got to replace it with something of value and we just haven’t do you think we’ve lost our whole moral compass as a society Tom I think absolutely I think we’ve completely lost lost the plot we’re so far down the rabbit hole there so many issues that I don’t think the society knows where it’s going it’s it’s not just Christian values as well there are many religions which have very similar values in terms of what you’ve talked about there Commandments obviously uh I mean I think I think there there are some that are have a lot of value um there are others that have been routinely ignored for many generations and certainly now adultery for example is is something that seems Seems sort of slightly weird concept for people to feel morally about uh although although of course some people will but I I mean those clear values that are there as a basis for our society clearly I agree with you that they have been lost but how do we get them back Tom well I think maybe people need to reach down the Dust Bible from the shelf or go online and get a Bible and start reading it again I mean you know I’m not necessarily saying that everyone is going to have to become Christians but we actually need to actually start thinking about these things go back to our old valy start reading the scriptures The Sermon on the Mount other things you know these things have formed the basis of just about everything in our society be it’s art philosophy medicine whatever all of these values are and if we scrap them we’re lost you are clearly someone who cares a lot about about the Bible and I would imagine you’re a practicing Christian Tom are there are there other religions you think that have things to teach us uh have not studied others that closely um I think that the Christianity is very clearly the message of Christ was he was the way to God he says he has seen me has seen the father um all religions are trying to find god well I would say look at Christ he says who has seen me has seen the father okay um Tom thanks for your thoughts really appreciate your call that was Tom and rugby there give me a ring on3 44499 1000 there’s still 17 minutes for you to get your call in if you want um and uh John has been in touch and says you amuse me Peter with the importance you place on releasing manifestos the manifesto is only worth the willingness uh to do the things that were promised in it people like you may follow what was promised and what is done however a huge majority most voters have forgotten what was in it 2 minutes after the election is over if they ever read it at all it’s just catnip for the masses just more political theater well John I think I actually think you you’ve a lot of you have heck of a lot of a point in that I think you make a really good point and that many people do not feel that manifestos are in any way important but I suppose the point is the you know a lot of people say especially in this station with a lot of viewers and listeners you say you know I don’t really know what labor wants to do well we will know this week because they’ll outline as well the liberal Democrats as well the conservatives other parties will do at different points as well exactly what they would do or want to do what they say they will do in government I agree with you that they’re really only worth the paper they’re printed on because they changed their mind so often the example I gave earlier was Tony Blair who made the bank of England independent that wasn’t in the manifesto that was one of the first things he did in 1997 You’ have big policies and manifestos for example the dementia tax in 2017 that was never implemented for example so you could say what’s the point and and I agree I I agree with the the sentiment of what you’re saying there John even though I think you’re being sort of mildly critical of me and that’s fine because on this just this program we have a discussion we disagree without being disagreeable and John I think your point is a really good one however you’ve got to know if you’re voting you want to know what you’re voting for and a Manifesto is one way of putting that all in one place and saying right it’s online it’s online forever more you can get a physical copy of it if you really want to and then go back to that and work out what the L Manifesto commitments are and actually in five years time if they have been met at all of course the big one in 2019 was get brexit done some people feel that wasn’t even achieved even though we have brexit we are no longer a member of the European Union there are lots of other things in manifest with the people don’t take any notice of at all the conservatives labor and liberal democrats for example all had Net Zero as a policy in their manifestos in 2019 so many people say to me on this program for example we never voted for that well actually you did if you voted conservative labor and liberal Democrat the kind of party you vote for may not be the one that you agree with every single thing that they say but a Manifesto at least gives you some knowledge of what it is and that’s why we’re going to talk about it next about what labor May well be putting on as Manifesto conservatives the liberal Democrats as well and I’m asking you what you want to see in a Manifesto a commitment for the next 5 years of this country let me know 0344 499 1000 you can text me 872 with the word talk in your text you can tweet me at talktv or follow me at Peter Cardwell or you can send me a WhatsApp voice note or a text message via WhatsApp on 0344 499 1000 stay with us the legend that is Mike Graham comes back on breakfast Julia heartley Brewer she got an opinion or two into Ian Collins in the afternoon my wife loves him drive time weekdays from 4: the home of Common Sense is talk [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] across the UK on dab+ on your smart speaker on your smart TV and on your side this is talk one texture says concrete overall realway and put the buses and lores in them which takes them off the roads trains are too expensive they don’t run enough whereas buses and lorries can run all the time direct into every town and City radical idea there Brian I’m not sure that too many uh manifestos are going to have that in it uh conservative abroad says why doesn’t talk TV do a show from Australia interview a few xats as to why they left the UK and perhaps would tempt them back Australia certainly pays better than Britain in 2016 there were two competing versions of brexit and offer not brexit and brexit what we’ve done is end up closer to not brexit um says this person well I mean very interesting thoughts there uh if if talk TV wants to do a show from Australia I’m going to volunteer for it especially if we can tack on perhaps a couple of weeks afterwards for a nice holiday um crazy Badger says boy Racers is a bit sexist I’ve seen as many girl Racers over the years and one I might actually going to save that one from Alicia to put to John renol who’s my next guest but I will put nean swansea’s point across and he says unless the party’s manifestos are legally binding they’re worth the paper they are printed on new 20 Manar policy in Wales and bang they brought it in well let’s talk to John rtil who is Chief political commentator for the independent John a suggestion there that Manifesto should be legally binding I think that’s probably not fair especially as you know the 2019 Manifesto for the conservatives for example uh they didn’t know covid was coming and and sort of circumstances change but also your uh sort of Big Hero Tony Blair obviously didn’t put in the 1997 Manifesto that he was going to give Independence to the Bank of England are they worth the paper they’re printed on no of course they are I mean as I mean you I listened to your very interesting um uh words about this just before the break and you’re absolutely right I mean manifestos give you the best idea of what the parties say they want to do and obviously events are going to knock them uh knock them aside and sometimes there’ll be things like the independence for the bank of England that that that that aren’t in there but actually everybody approves of and and the general sense of direction was in the manifesto no question about that um but I mean this idea that that that Manifesto should be made legally binding I’m afraid is part of the sort of um the the sort of unrealistic thinking that says you know we should we should prevent politicians by law from lying I mean this is this is an attempt to sort of bring the law into Political argument um I mean it’s almost like saying you know Boris Johnson should go to jail and all the rest of it just because just because people disag age with him um I’m afraid that’s that’s not the way that politics should go I mean politics should be about argument and debate and people have to make up their minds about manifestos whether they believe them and you know retrospectively whether they think parties tried sincerely to implement how much pressure is there for the manifesto equipments to be uh for labor anyway to catch the uh catch the Zeitgeist because it’s interesting I mean to me all lior need to do is say we will govern the country and govern the country well that’s really all they need to say I mean manifestos are more of a banana skin really for parties we we saw in 2017 certainly the dementia tax made a huge difference to people’s thoughts on the conservative party but we’ve got these big Manifesto launches this week there seem to be something that’s really really important certainly uh for the three main parties launching them this week but but really what it’s not sort of do they matter because I’ve kind of asked you that question it’s more to do with the sense of what are the perils I suppose of manifestos because we’ve seen that on many occasions yeah know but but they are important Peter because of because how how a party words its commitment is is a very important issue that’s why they spend so much time drafting these things because you know you do have to have some kind of basis on which to uh on which to go into government what do you hope to see in the labor Manifesto uh John is is there a Big R as you said it’s going to try and capture the Zeitgeist which is that uh which basically don’t mess up so it’s going to be an extremely thin document yeah with as few specific commitments as as possible and and the and the commitments that it will make will be extremely modest I mean as they were with with Tony Blair in 1997 I remember him I think in his in his Memoir he says you know after he’d been in in at Prime Minister for about a year he he looked at he looked at the manifesto read it with horror and said you know is that it I mean um but I mean that’s that in a way is is is the right thing to do in a manifest is not to uh not put people off I mean you know the labor party is in a very strong position uh and it needs to be careful not to put anything stupid in the manifesto I imagine you’re a big fan of a journey by Tony Blair perhaps in your estimation the second best book written about the blar ear yeah yeah the second best book written about the blar [Laughter] ear after your own I have a point from one of our uh tweeters actually Alicia has been in touch and says you may not read this out well I just am but why is no one talking about the fact that Dale Vince the Green Goblin will become more powerful even though he is not an election candidate or when K ster gets into number 10 he’s an eego deranged menace to us all I’m sure Dale Vince who’s been on this uh Channel many times would uh would deny that he is an any a menace to anybody but certainly deal Vince and some other donors you know we’ve seen it with the conservative party liberal Democrats have had their problems with donors as well you have people who often give you a lot of money Frank hter is the big one with the conservatives at the moment and people judge you on that H do labor have problems with donors at the moment do you think well no I mean they’re not as bad as the problems that the Tories have had with with Frank Hester but I mean Frank Hester hasn’t tried to influence Tory policy he’s just he’s just said some embarrassing things um D Dale Vince obviously gives money to to labor because he thinks that they’re going to be they’re going to be green uh and I think that is one of the one of the that’s a big point with donors isn’t it John because a lot of people who you know the really big I’m not talking about people who give you know1 pound or a, pounds I’m talking about millions and millions of pounds ex often those are people who I mean I wonder how much influence they actually have or are they just kind of backing a winner because that’s what they want to do and they want kind of access to people not necessarily to influence power but to kind of be part of that world and to have their voice heard which I suppose is influence on itself yeah no it is influence and and it and it does create a an atmosphere where a labor government is going to feel Under Pressure to uh to do to do so-called green things even if um you I I personally think that that the Labor’s policies on on energy are completely unrealistic um but uh I don’t think that matters too much because I think I think public opinion broadly supports um what Dale Vince wants I mean you know not I mean they don’t support just stop oil and and and disruptive tactics but I mean they do want a government which does more to deal with climate change they’re not going to like it once it once it starts to starts to happen yeah yeah well on the major major changes to the economy that we will uh we will no doubt say no doubt we’ll talk more about that John as time goes on uh certainly a lot of talk viewers and listeners would would disagree but with with uh the main thrust I I agree with you public opinion want uh climate change is a big issue for a lot of people um John thank you for that John rental he Chief political commentator for the independent uh Russell Quark is taking over from me in a few minutes time we’ll be hello habit of this aren I know aren’t we um it was weird the other week because I was always taking over from um Ian Collins and then the next day he took over from me and we were in different chairs anyway what’s coming up on your program I want to talk about prisons have you ever been to prison P I have I was I was in I was in Bel Marsh with pretty Patel what had you done wrong um I done nothing wrong um I was the special adviser at the ministry of Justice at the time okay so you had a good excuse I’ve been in I think I’ve been in three prisons I’ve been in um a very scary prison in um Trenton in New Jersey so you’ve been in more prisons than maybe some criminals that should have been in prison have been yes I I interviewed a double murderer in uh in Trenton um I’ve been in bmarsh and I’ve been in high down prison in Sutton as well where speakers you really enjoyed it Peter so we’re going to be talking about the labor awful but fascinating well it should be awful shouldn’t it and that’s going to be my point later on so labor is saying that they are going to introduce 177,000 more prison places let’s see if we believe them uh my question is going to be who do we believe in so far as additional prison places the conservatives had their chance and uh not done what they said they were going to do um I guess our labor now the new party of Law and Order some might think not uh the opin PO say they are well let’s talk about it let’s see if they are in two or three years time if they do have the keys to Downing Street we’re going to be talking about phones in schools I still can’t believe that children are allowed to have phones in classrooms I don’t mean in school as locking them away they go in uh 17 secondary schools have banned them uh some people think that’s outrageous I think that’s a wonderful wonderful thing uh and we’re going to be talking about liberal Democrat policies because they have some apparently and not just falling off paddle boards and going water slides I mean there to say that we could all go on a big water slide I I I might be persuaded don’t forget bake off I mean the the city chef’s hat Ed Davis seems to be very very good at wearing no no they actually do have some policies so we’re we’re going to be talking to a libd spokesman their Manifesto is out tomorrow I don’t suppose he’s going to tell us what’s in it specifically but we’re going to try and push and tease to see what’s more importantly what will our divy do next what’s his next big uh stomp do you think I don’t know uh stock car racing par parachute jump Wing walking wing wing walking but left wing or right wing that’s the that’s the he’ll be in the center he’ll be very good well that would be the wings at all Russell have a great show Russell is here between 1:00 and 4:00 today I want to thank the top team behind the glass Chris Jacobs has been the producer Tommy bitson the assessin producer