James Forrester: on his rugby career, forced retirement, entrepreneurship and Gloucester-Hartpury

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Today’s episode is with one of the most exciting and unorthodox talents rugby has ever seen, Gloucester and England backrower James Forrester.

James is now the CEO of Gloucester-Hartpury – reigning Premier 15s champions.

Having burst onto the scene for Gloucester, in 2002, at just 21, Forrester made his England debut against the Barbarians, scoring a 65m wonder-try, skimming none other than the great Jonah Lomu.

James’ rugby career was to come to an eventual end, with a ‘blood curdling’ scream and an injury the operating surgeon said was the worst sporting he’d ever seen, comparing it to someone who’d been in a car crash.

Olympic gold medal winning Fijian coach, Ben Ryan – who’d coached James at school – said of his retirement: “The tragedy is we never saw the best of him – he could do things on the field that defied belief. The game is losing a great talent”.

Enjoy this interview with a true Gloucester and rugby legend, as we talk about his life and career.

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*About The Starting Line Podcast*

The Starting Line Podcast, hosted by award-winning serial entrepreneur, PR expert, and best-selling author Rich Leigh, is all about drive, ambition and curiosity.

Speaking to entrepreneurs, entertainers, athletes, philanthropists and thinkers, guests open up about positivity, success, resilience, perseverance, mistakes and more.

Go back and enjoy series one guests including Levi Roots, James Cracknell OBE and Apprentice winner Marnie Swindells.

*About me, Rich Leigh*

Your starting line doesn’t have to define you.

My upbringing was especially rough. I’m sure I’ll fill in the blanks sometime.

But I remember thinking – I have to, and I CAN – break the cycle. That single thought changed my life.

At 17, I dropped out of school. At 18, I became a father for the first time, and left the chaos of my family council house without a penny to my name, determined to rewrite my story.

By 30, I was a successful PR agency owner with a #1 best-selling book. We were working with some of the UK’s leading brands, entrepreneurs and celebrities.

Using that influence, I helped to raise more than a million pounds for sick children.

Hosted by me, Rich Leigh, The Starting Line Podcast is your weekly dose of inspiration, featuring powerful conversations with the world’s most influential entrepreneurs, entertainers, athletes, philanthropists and thinkers.

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*Timestamps:*

[Music] hello hello hello and welcome to the starting on podcast with me Rich Lee we’re well into Series 2 now hope you’re enjoying it again there are plenty of guests in series one just audio if you haven’t already listened to those but hope you’re enjoying listening and watching I’m speaking today to one of the greatest and most unorthodox Talent rugby has ever seen and that’s Gloucester in England’s James Forester James is now the CEO of Gloucester harbury they’re the reigning Premier 15s Champions I was there at the final Kings home last year it was incredible they’re the best team in the Women’s Club game in England and potentially the world and that sounds really over the top but you know England being the best women’s rugby team um Gloucester right now as I as I record this top in the table winning last year I think it’s it’s hard to dispute that they are the best club team in England and possibly the world so there I said it having burst onto the scene for Gloucester in 2002 AG just 21 James made his England debut Against The Barbarians scoring a memorable 65 meter try skimming none other than the great Jon ALU in that same year Ben Ryan who happened to be james’ coach at his school St Edwards a prestigious private school in Oxford uh and that’s a school that he earned a scholarship to uh Ben Ryan was his coach and that is Olympic gold medal winning foran coach Ben Ryan no you know no less said of Forester in an article in the Oxford mail and with the headline Forest a tip to take World by storm James is going to be a worldclass player and injury permitting will be in his prime for the 2007 World Cup when he could be one of England’s key players and remember England won the World Cup in 2003 21 years ago Jesus now that choice of words was oddly prophetic because just 5 years later James’s professional rugby career was to come to an end with a blood curdling scream and an injury the operating surgeon said was the worst sporting injury he’d ever seen comparing it to somebody that had been in a car crash james’ resilience is without question and his positivity is endless Ben Ryan bookended forest’s career with this statement the tragedy is we never saw the best of him he could do things on the field that defied belief the game is losing a great talent now James has done an awful lot in his life and his career we get into it this is another one in the series of let me show you the incredible people from our area um as well as obviously highlighted incredible people from elsewhere I hope you enjoy this it’s a wonderful interview with a true Gloucester and rugby Legend as we talk about his life and career and the impact he had on Rugby and Gloucester haven’t been inducted into the Hall of Fame even um you know following his incredible performance in the 2003 po genen Cup Final and plenty of other matches that many will remember follow we are uh start line show on Twitter Instagram Tik Tok start line podcast on Facebook LinkedIn um I keep doing this I’m sure most of you skip this but you know stlp pod.com email hello starp pod.com if you’re an agent or a potential sponsor or you’ve got something cool you want to talk about I’m always open subscribe you you’re there already go do it review us if you want to that’ be lovely but all that being said without further Ado I bring to you my conversation with the Mercurial talent that is James Forester I hope you enjoy it yeah there’s some definitely some challenges in rugby I think you know people often assume rights just always go up is in TV money but that hasn’t been the case with all the different different sort of T TV models now I mean it’s been an odd TV model it was it used to be so easy to watch rugby used to be SK yeah now Amazon TNT yeah I me even even the Six Nations it’s like what’s it on yeah you spend a minute or two but I mean with yeah so TNT now what’s TNT BT becomes TNT now it’s Discovery so I’ve got to get a discovery Plus app so I can just watch and I’m still I still don’t know because I’ve got sky and I only watch rugby through my sky app now and I’m like can I do it through Discover I haven’t even worked it out so yeah I’m in the same sort of boat but um yeah I think people assume that in sport you know the curve always just goes up but that hasn’t been the case I think the last they recently negotiated the last rounds of Rights for TV rights and I think when you factor in inflation it’s probably gone a little bit backward so um yeah crowds are probably not necessarily growing I think they’re up a bit this year so you know there’s loans from covid um you know issues around salary cap so yeah still lots of challenges but yeah I think I think gloucester’s in a really positive place now so um yeah gloss is always cited as one of those clubs is doing all right you know financially you know as profitable yeah and I think gloss got I think really good owner really good CEO bit biased he’s friend of mine but I think some really good people in the organization so I think uh lots of things to be positive about I think they got a great young great coaching um setup so I think they’re doing a lot of a lot of the right things um there are challenges I think you know the the model of rugby is to on the owners yeah who wants to be a rugby club owner who wants to do you know I remember back when you were playing when walking Shaw you know I remember there being some serious Financial you know you need to Chuck some money in you know this is like you know this is going PIR shaped so it’s it’s not like rugby and you know money in rugby it’s it’s being okay it’s been okay and then it’s it’s all of a sudden because of Co or something taking a hit you know it’s always been a a difficult model to get right yeah and R’s got to find a way of find finding a model that’s a St able and that’s you know players might not love it but that might be around controlling cost around player salaries um cost generally around the game until until you have a model that it’s either bringing in more money in terms of revenues whether it’s TV rights or an extra 5,000 people a week through the gates or however you get there but you know it has to be sustainable I don’t think this model way just lean on uh ownership you know the owner is is right so yeah there’s I think actually I’ll ask that you know Saudi stuff is that like how’s that going at the minute like because obviously that was a big flash point a couple of weeks ago month ago um I think the club’s official positions they don’t comment on investment potential investment um yeah I think as said Rugby’s in a place where you probably have to consider offers um and what’s on the table but I yeah I I don’t think I’m in a position really comment on the I’m not this isn’t a gotcha I’m you know just genuinely interested in like you know cuz as a as a fan I’m torn yeah you know and I think most people probably would be you think okay infrastructurally you think think of the money that could then come into gluster harbury think of you know what that does yeah but what cost and to what end yeah and you’ve got to feel comfortable that it’s um happening for the right reasons but as you say um I think so much could be done with some extra investment around infrastructure around Community I think Gloucester Rugby’s doing some amazing things with the foundation they got new CEO Rob Weber who’s um got a charitable background and I think they’ve really changed their model around the foundation around the community um yeah piting the community at the heart of that um and having having a really big impact so I think gl’s always done that really well I remember being at school and getting picked up I can’t remember what days we used to get picked up on a Mini Bus like you know a handful of us rugby players and we go to King’s home and be taught like digital skills and things like that in so like you know one day Henry Paul was there and you know fure came and you know um that you know it was obiously around that sort of time so you know I think they’ve always done good things in and around the community and you know I remember like you Simpson Daniel being at some you know some competition I played in handing out a ball and you know just I think it’s always that like there’s always a presence I mean I think King’s home and gler Rugby’s always been in the heart of this community and hope it always will be um was always very proud to represent the club and and part of our rers to go out in the community and coach and go into schools so go out in the community in liquid think don’t remember liquid yeah you do yeah maybe I mean maybe you don’t very rare very rare visits yeah I think probably more fre more frequent than the players nowadays yeah it’s it’s it’s odd now thinking of players and you know not just nutrition but generationally even it’s on my team you know they don’t I guess because being from a more sporting background how do you celebrate you know you get out you get out there you have a few beers yeah I think I I’ve always considered myself quite lucky that I played in the era I was actually I went on a um charity bike ride with Mike Teague and Ian Smith a couple of weeks ago and we were talking about it and you know I think Tei sort of just missed that professional era so he probably wishes he played near he’ earned some money because yeah he was probably one of the world’s best players and in market value he would have been earning a lot of money if he was playing today yeah um and I was I I said to him I just feel quite privileged because I played ner that still had the I guess you got the best of went to Cil play wayil yeah we had elements of that amateur era played with a lot of big characters who who been fully amateur then gone through that transition into professional um and the game was professionalizing so I got the sort of feel like got bit best of both world it was fascinating time I think it was a lot it was a lot of fun but we also were professional we had some brilliant snc coaches and Brilliant medical staff I know Ed still Ed AR Ed AR Mike Anthony uh we got Wayne diesel we went on to Tottenham head of medical at Tottenham so we had brilliant people around us great coaches but we did go out and celebrate on a Saturday night um yeah we had a lot of fun and lot of big characters in that dressing room that you know not saying there aren’t big characters today of course there are but I think everything’s a little bit more controlled and yeah to the detriment do you think of rugby or well not necess say quality the um sort of product but I think um yeah let’s just say I I I’m glad I got the opportunity to play in that era I think uh it was a lot of fun and yeah got paid a little bit of money and all the rest of it but what was a little bit of money what was your first contract uh oh God I mean my first contract was £3,000 a year yeah uh so your first contract you were 18 19 so so I was um 18 I’d sort of a bit of a non-traditional route I’d missed out on England um 16 and 18s um when say missed out how close you I just yeah I went went through Southeast and played really well and then just didn’t play well in the trial there’s a big one of these massive trials you only got sort of 10 20 minutes to impress and I’d impressed in the buildup over the sort of six eight weeks before but I just I had a poor trial so were you one of your better County players would you say yeah I mean I was play I actually for some reason went and played for sorry my school teacher thought it was the best route to get into England 18 so played for S played really well on the London circuit and I was I think I was in a position to get picked sort of the south of England just had a poor trial so I missed out so I started making plans to go traveling with two of my best buddies one Johnny Goodridge who ended up ping for cluster as well so we um we B one these six-month tours around the world Asia India of indan neple Thailand you know usual usual sort Gap y thing and uh and then just before I left I’d sort of done some Trials of Gloucester having been at school and playing United and Colts and they offered me a contract just before I went and I said oh okay that’s great but I’ve already book this ticket and yeah didn’t go down that well I think um who offered you the John fidler John fidler was the sort of team manager right so that’s Rob’s dad wasn’t it yeah Rob filler’s dad and I think uh being yeah sort of public school kid from Oxford heading off traveling was not the sort of Norm especially when you had a sort of contract on table I I made that decision to go yeah and sort of back myself said look I’m you did yeah yeah it was an amazing experience came back in February I was ridiculously underweight well I I read 63 kilos that’s probably a bit of an exaggeration that’s making you like 10 10 St I don’t think I would have been operating but yeah I was how T are you 64 6’4 but I was so CU we we didn’t have a lot of money so we’re traveling around not eating very much yeah and uh came back really underwe people didn’t really recognize me when I got back I saw proide blonde hair and I think you can see my ribs and all this sort of stuff so um yeah came back but got back into it and sort of bed myself and yeah unusual route I think my first ever cap was a England a cap so I sort of broke into the first team Andy Hazel had an injury so I started getting some game time in the first 15 then very quickly got picked for England a I think the following week I went away to Safa with England sevens then I came back and I think I dropped from England a and then played for England 21s right so I saw went backwards I wasn’t it all within the course of a month yeah I think it literally three weeks it was sort of England a toward AFA did the sort of world seven series sa afca and Brisbane yeah and then we uh I think I came back and got dropped from England a and played for England 21 so yeah um yeah not the sort of traditional route but good yeah good fun and um so if you weren’t 63 64 kilos um like what do you think you were and how did you how did you get to kind of competitive weight quickly yeah I’m not sure I really did I mean I think things are pretty different those days obviously I was on a snc program but I don’t think the nutrition advice probably where it is today um so we’re talking 99 that’s yeah yeah 99 so I’m not sure I really understood you know um you know counting your calories and your sort of macronutrients and things like that obviously I was started ping weight on but when I broken the first two I have still been really light I think I was like early 90 okay so was yeah but I guess my game back then and the game was more open it was a bit looser I think my game then you were you were well you always were just a rangier player yeah and I just I think I just covered a lot of ground I could probably just run all day larg how skinny I was I guess um so yeah just covered a lot of ground tried to be everywhere wasn’t the most physical obviously wasn’t a sort of heavy Frontline Ball Carrier but would sort of pop up the Cent all weighing and yeah let’s go back you mentioned your school it was um St Edwards yeah um I looked at the alumni some of the I mean you’re in the Wikipedia you know alumni page you’re on there um John Goodridge is on there um and you played with John at B yeah so John way back played together from the age of seven good story actually mini rugby from Seven both our parents decided to put us both we were both at State schools in Oxford and we both went for sports scholarship at cward Oxford yeah and both ended up getting it so went to school together from 13 to 18 and then both got scouted by Gloucester so ended up at Gloucester together he ended up actually having a year at Quinns um quins was it Quinns it showed an interest in you as well or there were I had some interest from quins andon actually I my dad ended up writing to glester so I don’t think anyone could take huge credit at Gloucester for me ending up there I got some interest other clubs and gave my dad the idea and he actually wrote a letter to Gloucester asking if we could come and visit Gloucester they just said come and have a trial see we we’ll have a look at what you can do lad and that sort of thing and what an incredible way in yeah I think it everything was very different then it the dawn of professionalism you knowmy weren’t really set up Scouts things like that so it was it was all very it was almost hey we’re getting Premiership interest from Northampton and Harley Quinn so so James got to be at a level so you know take a look why gler done um we had look quins Quinns and um I think maybe Irish and I don’t think we were hugely impressed with quins obviously it was also quite a big commute going to London with traffic and being in Oxford sort of gloss made sense so and coming down here I just loved the atmosphere loved King’s home really lik the coaches they were who was who was coaching at the time was it Philly s Andre at that time or so it some old some of the old sort of gloss like John Haynes Pat Kylie who uh coached lney for a long time um and then into guys that Andrew Stanley yeah and just yeah really good honest guys great coaches so just really enjoyed the setup got involved got straight into it got straight into the Colts I think very quickly I played a United game I think at actually Oxford University played one played for United at B away and they had four World Cup players playing who’d come back and needed game time so like the Glanville Mike cat Bou and I was 17 yeah that’s incredible 17 um Steve J was my opposite man number eight yeah yeah yeah um who became a gloss player so I saw 17 playing against these guys who just come back was massive yeah yeah I was definitely not massive other notable people Amelia Clark yeah yeah yeah Game of Thrones Amilia Clark and obviously lots of other things lond mayor to David Lewis um Lawrence Olivier yes I think it’s Lord Olivier I think um and Florence Pew who’s just been in Oppenheimer and obviously very famous for lots of other things um I mean that was five of author of wi The Willows umth wind went to that’s incredible I mean so and Douglas bar so Douglas bar very famous Air Force pilot who lost his legs right okay refused to stop Flying so they’ P him in the planes without legs and he continued to fly through throughout the second world war with metal legs wow so yeah so Douglas B yeah so some yeah some incredible people famous people I mean that the school you said that you applied for a scholarship yeah um would you been able to go without that scholarship no so I got I got I got sports scholarship and a burer um definitely not um pleading poverty but yeah I don’t think I’d have been just would have been on the cards wouldn’t have been on the cards without that sort of support and yeah I always say Rugby’s given me everything you look back and you know getting a scholarship I think that gave me huge opportunity you know I’m big believer in you know just repetition and practice you a lot of people read this book bounc by Matthew side um just being at a private school just means you are playing rby 3 four times a week in our downtime me and Johnny G just go down the playing fields and just kick a ball to each other for hours and hours hours and I just think that’s shame in that state school kids just miss out on a lot of that opportunity just that sort of time sort of in the seat if that makes sense which is a shame because I think half something like half the England team always from a private school where I mean it’s 37% 37% of the english team private 37% of kids actually go to private school so it’s OB very and it’s 5% of English footballers go to private school so it’s 89% that went to State School played professional football and in rugby it’s 47 I think it was per that go to state school so it’s but then it’s I I was I was looking at thinking well what are the reasons for that and I looked at State School 90% of State schools play rugby so it’s not that state schools aren’t playing rugby it’s got to as you say be be something else is it is it rugby they play three or four games a year that’s the thing isn’t it it’s it’s not not compulsory but is there an A and A B like what what’s the process what’s the set up yeah and it’s just all that opportunity I think fairly early on we had access to gyms and things like that but I just really believe it’s just that and also it helps when your coach was Ben Ryan yeah Ben Ryan’s my coach so Ben Ryan of Fiji seven Chief Ben Ryan yeah uh so he came in at 18 uh brilliant really Innovative uh quite fun I remember his first first meeting with us he basically just showed us a video of his highlights from his playing career that great was the point of it he said oh I just wanted to show just want to show off that’s that’s um I found a piece in the Oxford mail um Ben Ryan talking about you oh really yeah um you really did do Rec I always do I promise you um the headline was Forester tipped to take World by storm oh do you remember this piece of saw no no um Ryan Ben said uh he is going to be a world class player and injury permitting will be in his prime for the 2007 World Cup when he could be one of England’s key players that was 2002 so you’ve been playing professional for two or three years at that stage injury permitting injy that’s the line that jumps out right and we will get into you know get get into all of that but so you don’t remember or you didn’t know that Ben said that uh you you must have at this time 20 years ago yeah was obviously into my career so yeah maybe I would have been aware but I’m sure my Grandad my granddad kept all my clippings so when he passed away he found some books and he just kept absolutely every newspaper clipping throughout my career just you know the idea of fames doing that did you know your granddad was doing that at the time um I so great story about Grandad so I very lucky to have two grand dads quite lat in my life one was a major general um saw a bit less of him but my mom’s dad was a big rugby man did both of your grandads play one played for Leicester the other for bath and centry yeah that’s right that’s right um which is incredible B pedigree and your dad played for Oxford o was a yeah decent good standard back in the day um so but my good story about my Grandad so obviously my my parents were working you know supporting us through childhood so I got this opportunity with gluster cult at s 17 so I basically had a year of being at school in Oxford which is yeah it’s a fairly long commute especially in the rush hour is it so we’d have training at 6:00 p.m. and my Granda would drive from reading in his mid late 70s from reading to Oxford picked me up from school drive me to Gloucester watched training Dro me off about 9:30 at night and then drive back to reading wow and you my parents did some of those commutes but my largely was my Grandad was doing that for those Grandad on your mom’s side yeah uh David Naylor passed away a little while ago but he did that for 12 18 months so again it’s that yeah it’s that opportunity you well they they took it’s opportunity provision and steam yeah and he’s provided both opportunity and esteem in that sense he’s saiding James you can do this and I’m here and I’ll support you and give you the opportunity to make happen you wonder you know i’ I not got a rugby scholarship had I not had a family around me like I did a grandfather you know parents but grandfather who’s prepared to do that in his mid late 70s that was that was a six seven hour round trip for him bless him that’s incredible yeah so you know you do you do look back and wonder think of the influence and impact Rob’s had on my life and you know such small margins right and you know if you taken that bit out slideing doors of the situation it’s if your dad hadn’t written maybe maybe that letter didn’t get read a week later you know like maybe maybe maybe what is your family setup then so your I read a story that your dad used to take people uh you know operate as a tour operator and take people around Oxford with not entirely yeah I’ve quite entrepreneurial I think that’s certainly my dad so I think Dad’s claim to fame as he’s never worked for anyone in his life he basically left school and he just sort of found a way to earn money so I think early on he yeah he’d do these sort of fake tours around Oxford they’ go up to Japanese tourists and claim to be a a qualified tour guide and do guides tours around Oxford and then I thought I think he bought a removal van he became a removal man and then built and built and then ended up um started his own first swimming pool business and then he ended up with this um this sort of wooden uh C he’ build build cabins and large wooden structures so yeah his claim yeah claim to fam he never worked for anyone once at his life so or took a salary so uh yeah quite a good story I mean that’s incredible so what was his upbringing like quite quite tough so yeah obviously the son of a of a Major General General who’s as you can imagine back in those days pretty hard line to Dad was sent to boarding school at 4 and a half um yeah I think that was pretty tough um I think that affects you in certain ways in terms of um your relationship with your parents you know and I don’t think there was even a boys barding School locally so he actually went to a girls boarding school for a year or so but basically you know Granda was moving around a lot North Africa us he’s in Washington I think Dad was basically um yeah boarding and looking after himself from the age of four and a half I me he tell stories he he’d come back for Easter and his mom lived in pH Chelsea and he’d walk through the door with all his um massive suitcases home for say Easter and she’d look up and go darling what are you doing here and she wouldn’t even know it was Easter holidays and things so um yeah so that probably made him quite self-sufficient quite young yeah to the point where leaving school he’s like no I’m okay I can do you know I can take responsibility myself uh yeah and um yeah so I think I think that had an impact and he wanted him and my mom wanted to be there for me and my sister so even though I went to a bowling school it was never D was like we lived locally and it was never an option of barding so I think it it’s quite damaging to him you know obviously barding schools are very different nowadays but um so that was never an option so yeah I was very lucky growing up had huge support around me dad took me to mini rugby at the age of eight and became our Classics or became our coach day one and went all the way through from 8 to 16 as our coach at the Mighty B and you’re pretty successful with B yes yeah we had I think we ended up having four of the lads on our team played some level of professional rugby W um we’d go around the country winning tournaments everywhere and we’ sort of beat bath every year you know this tiny little town north of Oxford uh so yeah we and yeah what was it just a good year was uh well it starts evolving doesn’t it like we had other people start coming in and they see the success yeah everyone in the county so if you basically by the end of it but anyone everyone that played for ox County to come and play for B so what were your first memories of playing rugby being absolutely freezing I look at the kids nowadays they’re like they’ve got the skins and the tracksuits and the hats and I just look back at photos I just remember where were the tights when you were yeah it was just like shorts t-shirt and I just remember try you know getting those sort that sort of frostbite fing in your hand but no look Rugby’s being my passion since day one I just love it just something about yeah getting B you know I was obiously a player that enjoyed attacking so just getting ball in your hands can you remember when you first felt like oh actually I’m quite good at this um how old you re Ian I was pretty decent through minis but actually having got the rugby scholarship I I think I was quite a late developer this about 13 yeah so actually 13 14 maybe even into 15 I don’t think I was particularly a stand out player at school I remember we went my first game having got this Robby score shoet my first game for played RGS High Wickham so another big Robbie school they got of Matt dorson Nick Duncan I think they’ve had three England scrum halfs go through there but they’re these two brothers the Gilbert brothers who both at the age of like 14 um they were like 6′ five with beards and I was just totally outplayed out of my depth was it was a real sort of wakeup call like oh I’m not as good as I thought I was um and that was sort of case for a couple of years did it feel like there were a lot of eyes on you being a scholarship kid yeah I think quite L expected of you and yeah I was I was fine I was good and I was good but not excellent I think for those sort of two three years and then I just sort of one of those came back one summer I just grown a foot right and um was that the year I read you scored 35 tries during one season did I yeah um where you’re getting this day this starts from so do you think it was the height like yeah and obviously how do you think help just just that going through that development phase that’s I guess puberty and suddenly I was a foot taller I was a lot faster and stronger and um yes definitely started having more impact but I I wasn’t like one of these kids that played in the first team at school in the S fourth or fifth form and he broke in the low six so um but yeah it’s a really strong rugby school um but yeah definitely I think took some time I think the way my style of play Maybe isn’t suited sort of um being someone that gets into a first team at 15 I you know I was developing you playing eight at this time yeah six eight you always you always played six or eight yeah six eight and then um I did I did play I did play in the back line when I was 13 at Club okay because actually again back Johnny G he did this parents te teacher swap so he went and spent a year in Australia and we didn’t have a fly half so I I think at 13 I spent that year playing fly half which I think great for devel it just to consider what it’s like from a back perspective Asos impr your skills and understanding so yeah bit of that how were you at kicking so I kicked at goal for the first half of my upper six year so again back my Grandad because of yeah well because back in the olden days a lot of number eights used to kick so my grand would always nag me and he’ take me out and we’ do kicking your grandad number it as well yes right and then I so I grew up right next to iffley rugby pitch where Oxford uni played literally over the fence so i’ I’d actually break into the ground when I said break in I jump over a fence um and I’d just go and practice my kicking so I was I was a decent goal kicker um but then I actually I lost as a game we lost one game in my upper six year which still haunts me and I scored a try and then should have converted it from about 10 m in from the post and I missed it we lost the game by two points and then we brought a a young 17-year-old fullback in from the second team and he took over the goal kicking and that was sort of the end of my goal kicking days but yeah I was I was all right I used to practice it a lot um did you ever kick a goal for Gloucester no no you know well we we had Ludi Mercier so I mean you did early on so get to mer that was never in the conversation I remember Mercier when they raised the flags I don’t know if this was PR or not but when where they raised I think they’re still higher than other clubs hilarious because they’re like well we don’t know if it’s gone over or not it’s to so far and so high so you had your Premiership debut in the 20 2001 season do you remember it uh yeah so the season was basically over the Premiership season they they had one game left the men and then I think they had a European semi didn’t they um so they actually got highing cup semi-final so what they did is they basically P out a second team for the last Premiership game so they P about four of us Academy boys went go out a go and it was a it was a it was a sort of game expect at the end of the season neither team really cared it it was a Prett deal a Prett po poor game and it sort of getting to the end of the game and I don’t think I’d had a particularly big impact and all I remember is I just there was a penalty on like 10 meter line I just took it quickly and um I end up scoring under the post so had a bit of a moment which was which is nice scor on your Prem debut so yeah he get a little bit of recognition but it wasn’t it wasn’t a sort of Big Time game but um nice to sort of get that game at the end of the season I think off the back of that four or five of us were given first team contracts it’s still that was the three that was the three no I think the three was that year then the next year went up to like N9 or 12 or something so could you live on that uh no but I I think I still unit doing a bit of uni there I think a bit of a student loan and okay you dropped out uni didn’t you so I did four terms four terms at Uni so the story again very different times Philips sandre was our coach and I was probably my head was in rugby anyway but I left Birmingham on a Friday and I was picked in a Premiership game against wasp which was live on sky on a Friday night and we I drove down M5 just hit one of those horrendous traffic jams I think it was a big pile up a big crash and I’d left in good time but I ended up turning up half an hour before kickoff so I end up turning up at like 7:00 obviously got a baller King and I think Philip called me into the office on the Monday and said you played well but I’m dropping you because you were an hour late this is not acceptable uh you need to think about this University thing so I was sort of actively pressurized to give up Union to be honest I was um fairly easily swayed because I think I just wanted to be a rugby player what you studying at un uh history and sociology okay why history and sociology I really enjoy history I’ve have no idea about sociology I think I literally went along and I think day the first week don’t even think I knew what sociology was but I really liked history I still do I’m quite a big history fan um but I have no idea what I was doing the sociology bit but um didn’t he say you’re a history fan what you mean I just so if I’ve got time a lot of the books I’ll read will be either history books or historical fiction just really just always been really interested in particular did history a level uh did Politics as well um yeah world wars I think sort of the how Europe developed over that sort of 18th 19th century that was in my level so yeah just really really enjoy my history listen to the sort of History podcasts and yeah so you weren’t too fuss to leave uni behind no and also it shows him some commitment yeah look I was just I just always loved my Rugby and I think if I was if I was opportunity I was going to take it the commuting was tough uh again it was a different era and the support wasn’t around you um to you I think nowadays you be actively encouraged to stay stay in Union whereas though yeah those foso the other day you know didn’t play because he was doing a you know doing a um a test right yeah and that’s just completely fine it’s like you’re playing for England in Six Nations that’s how it should be it is how it should be but abely wasn’t the case then with my knee you just don’t know how things are going to end so but I don’t I don’t regret it um I I I manag breaking the first team fairly young youj right yeah yeah Andy Hazel picked up a few really bad injuries in that in that sort of year or two so I got probably a bit more can you remember the back row when you came into it uh yeah so my so my f i remember my first proper start where I was picked on Merit we played Newcastle at home and I can tell the story everyone was terrified of Junior par he’s the chief he’s even the big senior guys like Phil vicker were pretty scared of him I think and we were playing Newcastle and they they had a lot of those Simone Boys Like ingga Pat lamb uh Epi tiny so that was a big game for our Simone Lads Junior and Tesa yeah and they dropped Junior and I got picked on Merit for the first time and I remember I had to get some treatment after the team run after they announced the team and I went back over the change rooms and it was dead everyone had gone home but I could just hear one person in the shower I was walking shower thinking please let me Junior please let me Junior I walking it’s Junior and we’re just sort of standing there washing and he didn’t say a word to me for like a minute or two then he just goes hey D Jango I’m like yes junior he said those Simone boys up in Newcastle they’re going to be might Mighty pleased I’m not playing I was like yes Junior I agree and then ironically aam got sent off in the first minute for fighting with EP tiny was this the one at Kings home yeah that was a big flash point that was that your that was my first start on Merit that was that whole racist thing remember all of that got sent off words were exchanged a big fight because because Zam was a hooker they needed to put a new hooker on so they pulled me off so my my that start lasted about three four minutes and then I watched the rest of the game on the bench um yeah brilliant I mean how do you how do you kind of reflect on that your first season I guess as a as a you know being started on Merit so what was what so that was that the 2001 2002 season yeah God it’s tly the really I’m really stressful one but I think yeah we over achieved that year um I think we ended up finished third in the league and I think the year before the team and I had mean involved the team finished some 9th or 10th so off the back of that you got picked for the England 15 yeah Against The Barbarians yeah that’s right and that’s where you scored 65 M yeah I had five meters every year but maybe it’s 55 but yeah that was that was yeah brilliant week I think that was the first time they didn’t cap that England barar game that was a annoying so you didn’t get a cap for it but we had a brilliant team out it was a really sort of PR who else was who else was playing that so vickory was playing Simpson Daniel um God I can’t remember Jay Worley I think Steve Thompson was um Andy gomasa W okay so that’s a stacked England yeah we we had a strong team out it was annoying they didn’t cap it but on the barbarians so obviously lomu is the the name everybody at the time I can’t remember still the case but it something like the most capped barbar team that P together and so the back three was was lomu Cullen Montgomery that’s ridiculous yeah and yeah you had like Pat lamb and uh was Zam playing uh yeah so and obviously Sim Sim scored that unbelievable try and he he ran round he s the ball in the air tricked lomu then I think he gassed Montgomery and then beat Christian cullin in the corner like wasn’t it five minutes before that you scored your try yeah I think you scored and then he scored he totally um he’s like if you’re going to do that yeah yeah but we were great mates I I think we were Chu for each when was the last time you watched that try I’d love to lie and say like 20 years ago but I it does every now and again people show it to me or um you if I showed it to you would embarrass you yeah please don’t definitely definitely don’t um yeah I mean I don’t know how many views of it but probably half of them are my family to be honest yeah it’s a good day and I think I remember actually there wasn’t a function after the game so I think we had food and then sort of all disappeared and I actually went to Oxford with some mates I think it the first time remember being sort of recognized and he was in a kebab shop so obviously that night so I went into Ox had a few beers with some of my schoolmates and then that we went and got kebab and a couple of lads in the Kabab shop recognized me from that day and that was just quite because you you get recognized around Gloucester a bit but being recognized Ox was quite surreal I sort of remember that moment um thinking oh was a bit different so yeah it’s a great day to do that you know VI victory was captaining I think and me and simad sort of make that debut together pretty special day and I remember remember just being a of lomu I remember kickoff you know it was a year or two before I was at school watching him in the world cup and then you’re just sort of I remember just standing there waiting for kickoff and just staring at him just thinking this is bizarre uh yeah brilliant experience yeah I mean did you interact with him at all I so I had my auntie came to the game we actually um walked past him on the staircase and I think she made some comment and I was like shut up auntie and she’s tiny and obviously he’s just giant of a man but not not massively um yeah he’s so so he didn’t say anything as you passed him no no I was like you’re like I just want to get away from you as quickly as I can possibly get away you know one icon just he changed rugby he really did yeah he to did he did he inspire you a talks 95 yeah I mean that so 14 I was I was a I think again because I love my attacking rugby I was a huge fan of that era of New Zealand newal rugby so my hero actually obviously lomu but was Christian Cullen who actually then because I got an opportunity to invite some rugby players out to Singapore for some events I got Cullen to open my La open my business so Christin Cullen cut the ribbon on when I launched my business in Singapore which is amazing moment for me so and then Cullen was playing in that game as well and he was an absolute hero for me Cullum LOM is obviously that sort of iconic Cullum was incredible because wasn’t a big guy no he’s really small but just the most unbelievable a and I used to love watching super 12s wake up early 8:30 Sky News Sky Sports yeah so I think for sure that era of sort of New Zealand Super Rugby definitely inspired me and I I was also yeah love they played a more attacking style didn’t they that was yeah Mike Teague and the back row of England those days wind bottom Dean Richards um but definitely that era was yeah really inspiring who was in the back row for the All Blacks at that time oh would have been zinzan um Josh kield um can’t think who the six was yeah no I mean as you say just incredible I used to absolutely love that you know I think when I played attacking was you know I I love defending I did but you know I was like I was a bit bigger than everybody else for a period of time and you know basically any space was was fun yeah you imagine that you are you know you imagine that you were LOM right you’re running around that’s what you need you need those role models to inspire people and get them out get them out playing and I we’ll talk about women’s rugby end a bit I think because I think that’s important to talk about role models and Inspirations and Pathways into the game and things like that uh 2003 he won the young player of the year the RPA young player of the year um sports writer young player of the year so this is your second year as a professional yeah for second year in the first te I remember that year incredibly well won the poen cup yeah um that was the best year of my care it was a phen as a glester fan that was an incredible year um I was I was 14 I think 13 14 at the time so again my own aspirations to play my I’m so I’m watching you guys I’m watching Junior paramel you know to he’s silly with the shed and you know all those things that year um 70 well 75,000 people at twickingham yeah you scored yeah scored one um yeah that was that yeah that year was really special I think yeah my regret is I think we should have done more of that team I think we we should have won the well you came top should should have could have I guess was were unbelievable but you came top of the league and it was the first year they brought playoffs in yeah and I think it was yeah it was tough for us to take that to wasps at twickingham in the way you know it was it was it felt frustratingly inevitable that Gloucester this Plucky upstart Club I think we had a three- we break didn’t we for the final and was all about they played the week before weeks before maybe hard to know how to manage but look I’ve when you talk about leadership I think the biggest thing I’ve learned is taking responsibility so I hate people that make excuses so was deserved it in the end but it was a tough it was definitely a tough one to take and I just look at the Quality in that Squad yeah that’s probably that would be my biggest I’m going to ask you a question about that in a second but the guardian after that said English rugby can now officially welcome a new fresh face star while the man of the match award for the this apin cup went to Mercier I think he scored 20 points that day um they said the most eye-catching presence as predicted was gluster number eight James Forester so I think you’ve made your you think the point I’m trying to make is in a couple of years time with what Ben Ryan said and then a couple of years in the league you you were already being people were looking at you thinking oh my God you got you know you’ve really got something big and different that you’re adding to you know you’re you’re very different back row to what most had seen at that point yeah I was different I guess had a different style probably I was probably in reality a bit of a hybrid back forward was I think you I wonder if today if I might might Tred you in the center maybe yeah um cuz you you know you weren’t afraid to put boots a ball no um there weren’t many there weren’t many forwards Keith wood they would occasionally do it and then you um you come off though that’s the thing you know you’d score from them um I used a chip in the European final did and that was the6 I played a lot of football so I played more football than rugby up till the age of 13 I do think and I big believe in multisport playing multisport up to your I was a sort of Center back to be honest so I wasn’t like a flair football but I think it really helps um just having that weight understanding how to sort of Chip and kick on so it definitely helped my game but that yeah I think that was my favorite year you winning young player of the year I always say that probably means more to me than my caps because I think for me my England career is pretty underwhelming and I’m not overly proud of my two rubbish um England caps and actually winning that award because it was voted for by the players yeah um meant a lot to me and probably still does and probably means more before I guess we get on to England caps and and you know should would have could have of things can you name that Pon Cup Final team oh uh go start start with one um start with lced who would have been L that that year so I think did Trev St I know injury so I think I can so it would have been um Trev aam de obviously started CU vix was injured and he lifted the cup pasty was injured wasn’t he so it was Rob fidler and is it it was Ed Pierce no it was Adam it was eustus sry so yeah Adam eustus and uh fidler fidz and then myself hazy boa bat Ro Junior was on the bench wasn’t he he was what was boa like as a captain Oh brilliant just full of chat very amusing um he would actually torque himself up while running with the ball so he’d actually seen those players he’d be he’d be if he was like making a break he’d actually be commentating on himself um uh a big character but just I think one of those guys I think throughout my career gler our leaders were more lead by example and sort of he was what they say um he was just he was just tough you knew he was going to outwork anyone it’s just a traditional South African six you know guys like him and hazy allowed me to play the way I wanted to play they do mean they did carry hard and um hit a lot of rocks and yeah so brilliant and obviously felt yeah very fortunate to start with Junior on the bench Junior’s great great player and then Gasol yep Ludo Y tesar and toddy it Oh Henry tesar and Henry it was it Henry very often F and Todd Sim Marcel and Tina St yeah you remember the bench oh God testing me now um four would have been hooker yep um ronero yes second row Ed Pier y bat Ro junr yeah scum off C Smith Simon Amore Simon Amore yeah is that it that’s exactly it jez there you go there you go well done so I got everyone apart from eustus yeah who only only because you thought he might have been injured well no I thought Mark cor was injured right I thought maybe started I would I would have got used on the bench I could remember who started right yeah so there you go yeah well done good squad I reckon that’s a that’s a pass that was a pass yeah that’s a it’s a an A minus yeah well it was a great day and we’ve um we’ve got a 150 year anniversary on dinner on Saturday at the club and they did this Hall of Fame team recently and actually what what you noticed because it was a good little era for us and what you noticed quite a lot that team is from that sort of mean it was an incredible team obiously vicory not playing but when you think of the front row and not to take anything away from you know decks but you know when when you’ve got Woodman as an vicory yeah and yeah lead made me look good because they you know the quality of our pack gave me gave me great platform allowed me to play the way I want wanted to play and so yeah very lucky really so I mean what’ you do that night uh so so I think Don casy ex gloss player own the Strand right so from memory we just the best bit is always the changing room did we cut off tzar’s dreadlocks I have a feeling we cut TZ said if we won he’ cut off his dreadlocks I think his dreadlocks went in the change room at Twickenham and then it’s just those moments with your Mates is you can’t if I think I think Dean Ryan said to me when I retired if you could bottle up that feeling after a game with your mates when you’ve had a win if you could bottle up and sell it you’d be a billionaire very quickly like that was the special bit and then my favorite bit was always the bus so we’d have a 2hour 2our bus journey and obviously everyone’s just elated and um who were the who was the best in the changer room oh god um well yeah we sat together B row so um ha like hazy and I would often I think choose the music hazy particularly but him and I were into really into hip hop and I think the older boys hated it but we sort of always had the stereo so we’ always put on like notorious b and stuff yeah 90s hip hop yeah I’m a huge hip hop fan so who else so and um Marcel Garvey Johnny Goodridge all really big hipop fan so we sort of controlled the music and the older boys would winge but I think we remember Garvey after his F when he got his first um contract it wouldn’t have been long after I remember seeing him in an Audi TT and I and I thought it was the coolest car obviously I’m quite young still headdresses car no I know I but made spent some money actually he’s fairly Frugal chap so he prob probably sold it quite quickly he’s very he’s done very well for himself he went up to FR did an IT degree and he’s got a um a role in an IT company in France so we we still stay in touch a lot he yeah really good mate well that’s the thing do you and that team still keep yeah so quite a lot guys so Johnny GID him and I grew up together so we still speak probably weekly um see a lot of Simpson Daniel where’s he now is he still around here yeah he’s chham so our boys we coached the under 11s together at Cham Tigers oh our boys are in the same class at school okay uh so see a lot that worked out pretty well see a lot of him oh God the pressure on those boys uh we we’re fairly chilled it’s like listen we made our England debut together yeah you’re in the same year yeah yeah um from that team I just named um Andy Gil’s stay at mine Saturday night CU he’s coming to this dinner um Jake came and visited stay with me for a week or two he had to come back this a couple years ago he’s back in cap Town um see a lot of Andy Hazel Alex Brown obviously wasn’t in that3 team but joined I think next year we obviously working together now and see a lot lot of brownie Mark cor works at harbury saw we do yeah so he’s in chel he’s actually coached chel College I see quite a bit of him vicory um we had a big Christmas lunch uh we always get the old boys he came along we did it at his restaurant Trev Woodman was there Chris 40 works at harbury um so yeah there’s still lot connection yeah yeah it a I think we had some success and I think that helps bring you together it bonds you it really does you know you don’t and ALS yeah tough times as well but uh some good days so yeah and I think that there a lot of guys I will I imagine stay in touch with Junior doing now Junior works at Bristol so he’s on the operation side uh Bristol um yeah so a lot of guys stay very loc I love the area so I obviously went to Singapore for 10 years yeah but chose to came chose to come back to CH just because we love the area we had friends here yeah nice part of the world good schools so yeah yeah um you were named in the 37 man training squad for the World Cup um yes but then you got a wrist injury so this is the 2003 world had I played a few more games that season but I actually did the wrist if you if you went back the footage their Center late tackled me I think Henry dumm hry pulled dummy the ball and I was on the line and um their Center hit me late and I wasn’t expecting I fell back and landed on my wrist and I snapped my SCA lunate ligament I see the scar yeah a few scars so that was that was it so look I think I probably I guess I would have gone on that summer tour to New Zealand with England and I guess would have had a shot I would probably played that New Zealand marry game which I think was pretty challenging yeah I guess did hry go over with that one that the year that he got picked I think so God you’re really testing my memory now yeah sorry to of in more than I think yeah I think um can I ask a question about that how how did you boys respond to Henry Paul coming into the squad because there was a lot of headlines around him at the time CU I mean I forget what he was on but it was you know it was a lot I think it was 250 it was a million quid fouryear deal wasn’t it so I think he was the first million pound yeah oh just massive excitement I mean I he no showed for his um press press conference really true Henry style but no we were massively excited I mean we grew up so Johnny good is a massive Wigan fan so grew up watching quite a lot of Wigan yeah he’s really likable guy obviously very yeah very out going very charismatic um enjoyed a beer on a Saturday night uh but yeah we just excitement that’s good to hear cuz you know you hear about these players that come in on these Marquee contracts and you know people might take against them or you know so it’s good to hear that he he fitt no I think yeah he he I think he had you know some good good moments in his 15 career but it wasn’t always sort of as smooth sailing as he probably would have liked in terms of I mean there’s a lot of there was a lot of pressure to make it work internationally but R is just so is very different there’s a lot of that space But I tell you what when you if you go back and watch so England won four Hong Kong sevens in a row I think he played in all of them he was just a different level at he ridiculous like some of some of the things he could do I mean just the way he could CIS and playing players with that you know that flare and that ability and I think Henry Paul was one of the first Henry was ridicously talented I just think Rugby Union maybe just couldn’t quite find the position for him like was he a 13 where do you think he was I think probably sorry 12 sorry 12 I think 12 probably was his position but I think yeah with Henry skill set um I think he probably was just slightly more suited to league so while he’s still probably very very back did he go back to it I think he um he no he went to leads didn’t he I’m not sure he went did he go maybe he had one year back in league but he’s still a very good player but he was world class at league and he world class at sevens but no we we were just massively excited like that time I was a young fairly still still a fairly young lad in the team so to have a worldclass player like that turn up it’s just nothing but exciting there’s no resentment around the money or anything like that we were just I guess also then it’s if possibly players see that and think that opens doors for us too down because it sets a precedent and then maybe at some stage you know you we want a great players as our team we want to try and win premierships and so yeah there’s nothing but excitement yeah yeah so you were injured um in that mat so you were did you go and train with that 37 man squad no I don’t think I ever so I think they named me in the training Squad but I don’t think I ever then met up so and you were 22 at that time so yeah 23 and I i’ been in the squad a bit so i’ uh I’d been in the squad for the Autumn before and I remember simbba played all those games so they played I think all three of the big Nations have played Australia New Zeal South Africa in that Autumn before and I think I was the fifth choice in that Squad so I think you had delaria healed back and I think Worley was on the bench I think Moody was injured and those four they didn’t pick up one injury in that whole series so I didn’t get an opportunity um and I think yeah because I think after that wrist there was then just very consistently injured wrist elbow shoulder I would have loved I would have loved A Chance in that sort of period yeah um and I didn’t really get it I my England opportunities came a bit later and I think because then in that sort of pattern of just consist 2004 Wales 2005 some yeah and I was by then I was sort of getting almost an injurious season and I do think it just sort of affects well you gutted not to be part of that 2003 yeah of course I mean simbad was devastated he just missed out um obviously I I was injured so it was an option but yeah of course I mean I remember watching the final on your cha but part of you like I think the odds were against me going I would have had to have done something special to get on that plane but just yeah to not have the chance to join that train Squad was do you think it like was it all injury orientated for you was it all like uh no I mean again I yeah said said earli a big believer in taking responsibility looking out of Windows rather than mirrors so look there were times where I probably wasn’t consistent enough there were definitely flaws in my game I don’t mind I’m very happy to say game oh it would it’ just be the physicality but I was as I said I was probably almost a bit of a hybrid back so I I’d say I always played better in sort of September October and March April May than um those deep winter months play on grass pitches so yeah I was probably more of a fast trck player probably I think just some consistency whether some of that was around injuries probably consistency in my physicality I think so I don’t I don’t really mind were they the work cons of things that they’ g they yeah so I remember yeah I remember Phil L England Fates coach telling me remember him saying to me you’re a very good Defender but to get in this England back row you need to be a world-class Defender you’re not there yet so yeah so I I’d get feedback I mean it was fair regular probably the hardest England back row to to crack yeah then there were guys like guys didn’t name so then you had Moody Cory the the Sanderson Brothers Andy Hazel um so yeah was very wor yeah Worley and then the big three so it was very very tough to break into that back three and probably unfortunately for me my best rugby was when those three were just at their best almost as well yeah which and Leadership you know that bit older I guess so you know arguably they bring that with them big characters exactly that so do you do you feel any angle or upset towards you know missing out on uh yeah like I mean I would have loved some more caps um whether I was good enough to get more I guess for other people but yeah you grew up dreaming of playing for England I I sort just about managed to get some caps but I would have loved a more meaningful England career so that’s why I’m proud as said proud of you know some of the stuff we did at Gloucester and winning the young Player thing as a probably means more to me than my caps but yeah of course I’d i’ I’d bite someone’s arm for another 10 20 caps yeah of course I guess then it does get us to April 2007 when a minute into the game so we played new cart so I’d come back from another injury I’d done my I think i’ I’d done a knee and I’d done a smaller knee injury had have an operation six weeks come back broken my wrist so my thumb was hanging down had a operation on that came back and I think had one game against Newcastle played really badly I remember just just had a terrible game but still got picked the next week to start against Bristol so it was Bristol at Ashton gate yeah right so it was a minute in do you remember literally yeah literally from kickoff I think they won the ball and playing some phase and I just yeah remember I think guy called Sam Cox threw a dummy um and they had a big big six and I was sort marking him and I sort of bought the dummy so I went to tackle the six but then realized it uh he dummied it so I tried to make ground back up and get back to um tackle the ball carrying I just sort of got myself in a bad position and it was a sort of what they call a non-c contct injury so my knee just collapsed I wasn’t even hit by anyone just sort it stick in did it twist in the T and it collapsed so my stud stayed in the ground and my knee collapsed and hit the floor so it’s one of those ones you don’t want to watch on TV yeah yeah pre I mean I’ve got a quote from the time you said I’d ruptured every single part of my knee to P tell a tendon that connects the kneecap to the shin B was gone both minisi and my anterior cruciate ligament had ruptured and I also taken out a big lump of bone from the knee the surgeon Andy Williams who treated lots of international Sportsman said it was the worst sporting injury he’d ever seen he could only compare it to someone who’d been in a car crash yeah and nobody touched you uh yeah no one touched me so very bizarre um yeah so and you are 26 at this time I just I think had just turned 26 a month before um apparently blood curdling scream which do you remember that yeah so one of the main thing when gloss fans come up to me that actually more than anything else they say to me I was there when you did your knee at Bristol I’m like okay thanks for reminding me um do you do you hate being reminded of it no like I always appreciate people come and say hi so I don’t really mind but um it was tough I think my mom my mom didn’t really watch me because I got injured so much and couldn’t really deal with it and actually had been for a while and came to that game with sat my wife and yeah they they heard me screaming so uh wasn’t wasn’t a great day and was that the worst pain you’ve been on a pitch oh worst pain ever yeah it was hideous and but they they sort of missed the damage because the ACL actually can be very painful for a minute or two but then almost sort of dies down so it shouldn’t be that painful and I think I rang rang them the next day almost almost in tears the the physiolog or doctors and I said guys I’m in like I’m in tears like I’m in so much pain and then they said okay well let’s get you in for a scan Monday morning I went and saw Rodney Jake at the Lista hospital and they sort of started Ultra scanning my knee and that’s when they realized my pel attendant had gone and that’s why I was in so much pain because essentially my leg wasn’t connected it was basically almost so I shouldn’t have been standing up how were you getting around were you well I had crutches but they just thought i’ done an ACL so normally that’ be okay but shouldn’t have been upright because essentially my knee is not connected and that’s why I was in so much pain and I think they had to take like two liters of blood off my knee that they just drained a load of knee out and then they had to rush me up and I had to have a bit of an emergency operation so an ACL operation should be I think in about an hour and a half could be wrong right but I think my operation was s hours so wow I think I went down at 500 p.m. 5:00 p.m. at night they sort of P I think when you Sportsman they often pick you at the end of their day um if it’s an emergency to get you in so I they went in at 5: and I didn’t get back to my room till 1: in the morning my wife has obviously sat there my partner at the time wife now um prant was she no late soon after but um obviously panicking yeah um yes I did a lot of damage were you panicking um about the injury um I I think they I think you sort of kid yourself a bit and I think In fairness they hide it from you a bit because what’s the point what’s the point of yeah being totally honest with you so I think people around me were positive I think coaches and Senior physios knew I was probably going to really struggled to come back from the injury but they knew I’d want to try like mad so in many ways what’s the point of being 100% honest you might as well tell people do you think you just prone to injury unlucky with with injury it was the way you played what do you what do you think uh yeah I think I was prone I think if you look at my stature um I’m naturally a um quite a thin lean person if you look at things like I’ve had I had a number of wrist injuries operations my wrists are very thin my ankles if you compare me like Pete buckton great teammate of mine I mean you just if we stood next to each other we’re just built incredibly differently and obviously um my game was my speed so I guess I’m doing things um at higher speeds than say a buxon I guess um he would probably work lot harder than me but um so I guess I guess when when you put those two things together Tinder talking on a podcast about buckton and he’d always do things in training like injure other people uh you know accidentally injure people and bucker all every time he’s stood on my toe he did that way with his hug studs and he killed the toenail um and he was famous for injuring players like he injured more of our players in opposition um and I actually so I actually posted my toenail to him I actually I actually P an envelope and addressed it and stamped it and sent it to his house when the toenail died and fell off how long did it take to come off yeah it took like yeah one those that died slowly over I mean that’s really premeditated that’s kind of psychotic in a way James but did you appreciate it yeah Buck got a lot of banter so I think he’s great guy so I mean so you don’t think there’s any it’s just physiological I mean for me I I dislocate easily a jaw operation thumb operation knee operation and they say that it’s a hypermobility thing because I’m weaker in extremes of motion of movement yeah um it’s like you know if I’m bench pressing I’m I’m quite far down I think similar so yeah again I think I’m similar and I get myself into some strange positions which in some ways probably made me um that’s difference there I was in some ways but I I look I was there’s no doubt I was injury prone um do do you think when you know England coaches are thinking of you when Woodward’s thinking of you do you think he was thinking ah you know there’s there’s a risk well I think when wood was there I wasn’t as injur prone and no I just think he thought other people were better than me but uh maybe what your relationship with Woodward uh well I wouldn’t say had a huge relationship with him cuz I guess I was a bit a fringe player um yeah I had a few conversations with him I I I played really well in that England a series in O2 and so yeah he spoke to me a few times CU I was sort of I was asked the question what am I going to get a chance in the first team and that was the year they won the Grand Slam and obviously again and that was that was the one just one as an England fan and I think I I got man the match in the aame and I was hoping I’d get a chance when they went away to Ireland and Clive did say to me look you played really well you couldn’t have done more more but um I can’t drop I can’t drop Jay Worley or yeah delalio or Hill quite rightly so yeah I didn’t he wouldn’t talk to me that often but You’ often also have that relationship with the fors coach so Andy Robinson was for Coach time he probably communicated a bit more than me with me Phil L defense coach big part of my game I was working on so I mean you said that around the point of that the the big injury kept breaking down what do you remember that yeah well as I think I mentioned a moment ago so in the buildup the big one I did my other knee six week injury I broke my thumb and they were like literally back to back so I come back play inja and so that happened three times in a row in the lead up and then I came back and did my knee so I don’t know what was going on I just I don’t luck or physiology did you ever get to the point of being especially depressed about it like how how are you mentally around all of this because yeah it’s tough um the boys s of keep you going remember when I did my big knee I actually went back a couple of hours so the boys obvious played that whole game had went got changed went dinner and I think they were all just leaving the stadium and um I just ordered a new set of golf clubs and they had arrived that the day before and I think hazy Andy Hazen knew about it he made some joke about oh you won’t be using those golf clubs for the next 12 months so yeah some dark humor and Chang so yeah it’s really tough I was rehabbing for 18 months so that is really hard great Physio and Bob Stewart who’s the sort of England and lions physio so yeah lucky to have him but there yeah there are some dark times I remember s of opening up the boys had to train on Christmas Day because we play boxing day was every boxing day so I think we do a team run on Christmas day and i’ you did what you didn’t want to be do what I did want to do is be seen to cutting C are not doing what the players are doing so I’d always want to be in when the boys were in so I do remember opening up the rehab gym on Christmas day so the boys are out on the pitch doing a light team room and I’m sort of opening up the gym and turning the lights on on Christmas day and I just remember that was because you know you should just be with your family if you’re not playing really but I didn’t want to sort of Miss out I didn’t want to be seen to be not doing not in on the days the players were in so um yeah it was tough um it was tough I think there’s probably always uh suspicion as I said I think people around me and the medical team probably um dressed it up a bit and to give me confidence and get me through that rehab period because if you if you’re told there’s very little chance of getting back then that’s going to be pretty tough so what kind of rehab were you doing oh it’s brutal I spent a month in Boston this guy Bill NOS a lot of guys back then would go out to see with do this sort of we do a lot of backwards work it really hits your vmos and your quads so you get on a treadmill on a big incline and you get in a 90% 90° Squat and you’d walk backwards at the treadmill and you’d have to stay in that position for a minute give a go it’s uh tough I’ve done a ton of operation knee operation I’ve done a ton of knee knee rehab similar so we do backwards bike so you take the saddle off a bike similar Theory get a 90° Squat and then you’d cycle backwards for like a minute minute and a half a really high setting just your legs blow up so yeah um look I work really hard I don’t think I could have thrown any more at it but just it was just the damage to the cartilage that the they do these micr fracture operations and they’re just not successful they just don’t really work for elite athletes so I think everyone knew I was going to struggle to get back but what you heard about a stem cell I know they wouldn’t have had it then necessarily not so much there but even now I think yeah that might work if you’re just living a day-to-day life and it help you walk to walk to the shops and but to do what we need to do so you don’t think you’d have been able to get back with modern advancements in I I don’t think so I’ve took a I think a 2 coin size hole out of my inside my cartilage so I think I was always up against it um how did you feel when you did realize or when you were were you told or what was it your choice was it a coach what was the so the story was yeah if I’m totally honest you probably bit of you probably kid yourself but also you don’t admit out loud that you’re struggling so wouldn’t want to say I was dishonest but I had a great relationship with Bob Stewart fysio and Leon Lloyd the Leicester player who came to Gloucester him and I rehabing together for a long time and we started our s return to running protocols together we hard remember we were doing lenss of the field and Bob was watching us in our first few sessions back and we were like running next to each other and I was like I’m in agony and he’s like I am as well and then we’ get back and Bob would be like oh how’s it feel we be yeah yeah really good really good and I think you’d be kidding yourself also obviously there that sort of employment bit where you’re like oh God that’s what fin implications of long-term injury so I did have an insurance policy so I I always knew that if I retired I would get a lump some just which help give you a bit of security and not not to say the figure but how long does that keep you TI it over for I mean I I basically I insured myself three I think three years salary so it wasn’t it was it was yeah fairly significant I mean definitely helped me then make that move to Singapore helped me invest in my new business so it was yeah so they they also pushed a testimonial year forward for uh I had a oneoff dinner so I had a big dinner which brilliant really obviously really grateful for the club for that so i’ like 350 people yeah um but yeah it was uh yeah tough tough 18 18 months tough 18 months so the story how how it how i s the decision so again it was struggling with with that sort of being honest about how it’s was really feeling so I contacted the actual the the RPA so Damen hopley Alex Anon at the time told them I was basically struggling that I wanted some independent advice so I went up and saw a really wellknown physio in London and the RPA sort of I think financed it and organized it and it it all a bit kept it quite hush and I I went up my day off and I think I took some of my scans with me and things but I didn’t tell the club I was going so went up on like a Thursday went and had this appointment showed him the scans told him how I was feeling he reviewed my knee and my knee just was always angry so it was always like quite red and puffy it was never never look and I didn’t have foot extension so I always had a slight Bend in the knee and uh so he he reviewed all and he just said you’re done he just said um so it was the fysio at that time to this is this wellknown fysio up in London this independent advice and I was honest with him about how I felt I Bas told him that whenever I ran or even walked I felt like I was being stabbed in the inside of my knee uh he just said you’re not you’re done James I’m really yeah I’m really sorry but there’s not it’s not even like a 7030 right it was he just said you’re not going to play a league rugby again what did you say to him like what did it feel was it Rel so if I’m honest maybe a little bit of relief it didn’t really didn’t really hit home that day and I think I called my wife on the way home told her I don’t it still hit home and then um went into see Bob’s St the next day so my physio so great he became a good you know spending three hours a day with him came quite a good mate came to our wedding and stuff just asked him if I could have a meeting and that’s the point hit home I sort broke down on him um told him sorry mate but I went up to London yesterday uh would needed some independent advice really sorry I didn’t tell you uh they’ve told me to retire so that was yeah and they used those words they said you need to retire yeah yeah and I look I think the club knew I think they knew anyway coach at the time or this was Dean Ryan this was Dean Ryan yeah uh so this was at harbury in the physio room in the little side office told Bob well I couldn’t really tell him I was couldn’t really get my words out but and then walked up the hill told Dean and then I think maybe they said come back the next day I came the next day and just stood up in the meeting room and told the boys was that the hardest yeah I think um I think there’s a bit of relief there because I’d been dealing with pain for a long long time just constant swelling so my knee was just hot all the time because I was trying to P load through it to get back and the knee was just angry so I was just icing it constantly constant in pain conly on painkillers conly on anti flam but on that note on the painkillers note I know when some players do have an injury like this they you know they might find not just not just uh you know oh that helps a little bit but they they go too far with with painkill because of the sity of the operation I was actually I was in they again acl’s nowadays you walk out you have an ACL and you walk out that day I was in hospital for seven days I was bedbound for seven days and I had a morphine drip and then I was sent home with very very strong painkillers but I’ll be honest I I don’t remember having any issues but I I was on very strong pains for a long time because I was basically bedbound for basically six weeks right and I was you know I would have been on Morpheus type morphine type pains for that period and morphine drip for a week so probably looking back I was probably on too much but I don’t remember it never became a problem I don’t remember having issues never became again you hear some of those players and actually nowadays I would have been more aware of it I maybe I didn’t just maybe I did notice maybe I got a bit ill when I came out I don’t I don’t remember there being an issue um so you didn’t kind of turn to drinking or I think when I I think when I retired I probably you miss out on a lot don’t you when you play professional rugby so I think when I retired you know went up to London a bit more and went out a lot more with school you’re you’re still young 26 and you I missed out on all those sort of 21st birthday parties and things like that so but I look I’m not making a big thing but I’ve never don’t I’ve ever had an issue with drink like I like party but not not big issue but um I think I think in terms of the struggles after retiring I think I moved to Singapore quite quickly after that got an opportunity why was that was that a I wanted to get away from bit I didn’t I didn’t wanted to hang around I think I wanted to get away from rugby and I found it hard to be around rugby so and I just I always love traveling I love seeing the world and I got an opportunity to sort coach Singapore rugby I got this opportunity to do say like a sales role in financial services which just wasn’t for me but gave me the opportunity to office bound I to be honest I think that year I really struggled because AI didn’t enjoy that job I was coaching which I enjoyed but didn’t enjoy that job how did you get into coaching the sing I just threw the RPA again they a contact plus of M you said I’m heading out to Singapore well no no more the other opportunities and I had a really good friend there called George ripen right he got me in with the SIU so I I sort of head coach to single rugby which sounds quite Grand but I was probably paid about 500 quid a month and um and I had this sort of other job but I think I think I struggled that year looking back um really miss rugby really miss my mates sort of sitting in an office doing a job I really didn’t like your life’s just completely changed yeah and uh I think looking back I I found that year very hard I didn’t really watch any rugby I remember being sent a video if you remember that great James Bailey try course I think one of the best tries of Gloster ever I played a very I didn’t really do much I sort of defended a bit on the line then we scored this 100 meter try I think someone tagged me in that post you know this a year after I retired and I’m in Singapore and someone tagged me in it and again it was one of those moments that where it really hit home cuz I just didn’t really watch much rug someone tagged I remember watching that and getting really quite emotional um just watching that video um I guess you lent on your wife’s support around this J was brilliant throughout um she was girlfriend at the time then we moved to Singapore had a baby yeah obviously married been married a long time now she was yeah amazing throughout that she nursed me I mean she literally nursed me out had a potty by the bed could couldn’t go to the toilet for a week could struggled with the toilet really for six weeks so yeah properly nurse me she brilliant she’s always been very focused you know she’s had a career herself so she’s very driven ambitious person she runs marathons and so yeah she’s definitely inspiration to me as well and very lucky to have her through that period think Ben Ryan commented at the end of your career you certainly did he said the tragedy is we never saw the best of him he could do things on the field that defied belief the game is losing a great talent so you could do things on the field that defied belief and that the the first part of that the the tragedy is we never saw the best of him do you believe that um how do you think well I think you you always have a bias right so there’s always an element of ego and arrogance I think to get to that level like when I you know when I was in that period like I’d love to say Joe Worley massive respect for him looking back he probably was a better player than me he got lot more caps but yeah at that time I probably believed I was better than him and you have to yeah you have to so um yeah I think what was frustrating is I think there was a period just at the start of that season where I had all those back to back injuries I think I won a Premiership player of the month award in September yeah in September and what I’d done is I had P quite a bit of weight so I got up to sort of 108 kilos and I guess what I was trying to do was I guess fill those holes in my game that you know I got feedback about so and I think in that month I did feel like I was getting that balance between my I guess my attacking game which I was known for and maybe improving my defensive game so yeah with that bias and that arrogance ego there is a part of me that is disppointed I didn’t get a really good crack at that season the next season in that sort of physical shape I was in when I put on maybe an extra 5 kilos I’d learned a lot I think I was more physical so uh I guess the answer is so you so you feel like you going I mean you feel like you’re going in the direction of being a better player yeah and maybe and I guess 26 26 yeah you’ve got seven or eight years as a back row still to potentially go yeah so no I still probably maybe still flaws in my game and there a lot of good players out there I guess but yeah part of me feels that if I’d had a really good crack at that year the year after then I’d like to think I could have got some more England caps um some people might disagree I don’t know but I don’t think there are many people that would disagree I think you know I I can say it you know on your behalf I think most people would look at you know your game pre injuries or you know pre pre rtir but I think I yeah I’m a big believer my leadership style and running my business and now in like honesty and honest conversation so I’m I think I always I think even then back then I I was always understanding the fact that I probably did have flaws in my game so and I think I talked about looking out windows rather than mirrors so yeah I think I did always appreciate that I think I was on that Journey at that time to try and improve in in those areas and I you I was desperate to play more games for England I knew that probably to do that I had to fix part fix parts of my game and but also while trying to be true to the the reason I’d got there so yeah so yeah that ego in me probably thinks yeah I could have got a few more England caps but who knows it wasn’t to be but you played 136 games for Gloucester you scored you started 97 you scored 54 tries in 136 games now I know I’ve come at you with a few Stats today this is quite a fun one so 54 tries 136 games um that’s 0.4 tries a game simbad what do you reckon he okay 274 appearances do you know how many tries he scored I mean it’s a much bigger 130 what’s 138 more games played so play double the games you played how many tries you reckon you scored God I told to guess cuz he scored 120 tries in uh in those 274 appearances that’s .44 tries a game so yours is 0.4 his is 0.44 okay so per you know tries per game and given you were known for being a tri scoring eight right so um you know pretty close yeah I’ll take that I don’t know what that does how do you feel here in those stats what do you think uh yeah I mean look I think if I think if you are if you ask the that he’d say say I got 100 caps I don’t care about SC um and the reason I guess I didn’t get 100 caps probably as I said before areas in my game I need to I thought you might enjoy players but I do remember Lawrence unbelievable attacking player particularly earlier in his career he played he played want a do wi Olympic gold or commor gold play in seven so he you know I think over time he p on weight and um he obviously had that really big n iny Met look he’s a hero of mine um again he’s one of those guys in the squad when I broke in England squad an02 looking at him I’ve been watching him at school hero of mine so I’m not going to say anything negative about Lawrence of course not no I just thought it’ be you know like not like you’re not like for like eights that’s that’s the that’s the main thing you know you bring something you bring very very yeah I I guess I spent an awful lot of time hanging around on the wings probably help my my trra but also you know credit to you know Dean Ryan um that sort of threep pod rugby we played in that period yeah basically the the theory was you played more width to width and basically your back rows would actually sit on the touch line so my it’s brilliant you’d be like a number eight you get up from a scrum rather than running rock to rock like Mike Mike te just hitting sort 40 rocks in a row I just stand up go and stand on the touch line and wait for the ball uh it’s brilliant um it’s like a dream so yeah probably some of that down to the way lost have played as well so talk a lot about Singapore yeah after the injury you head out there as you say you get involved with Singapore 15s and sevens was it at the time yeah yeah I sort of coached throughout even when I was building the business I kept did so you did all your badges over there or had you already done them yeah I ended up uh did level two in England then out there I think the SIU supported me doing my level three so were you thinking I can make a good cracket being a coach um I don’t think I ever did you just want to stay close to the game I think once my business started taking off I think that was I probably in some ways enjoyed that more and felt there’s more opportunity there I think when you get away from high level rugby it’s very hard to get back in I think I knew coaching s for rugby five years you ain’t going to then turn up and get a Prem mhip job because the levels just for me it was more fun it was also quite good for my business because we’ we provided the physiotherapy for all the r Prem rug teams around Singapore it’s like big part of our business model so staying rugby was quite it quite useful but also I loved it like I co Wanderers working in that you working in that um in the desk job you know the office job how did you then get from that to your business and was so that was Youfit yeah yeah talk to me about youit so Dean Ryan’s first person talk about purpose and and I hadn’t heard it really spoken about before but he brought it in in that era and um we talked about beyond the expected so we’d always behave and and train and play beyond the expected and and then I moved to Singapore sort of had did a bit of this coaching and then had this sort of job this job which I was you know very grateful for the opportunity but just wasn’t for me um and I think that’s that purpose bit because I just didn’t know why I was turning up to work every day I just was I was miserable to be honest wasn’t happy wasn’t enjoying it I just knew I knew within five minutes of sitting that desk this wasn’t me so over that year I started transitioning I had some mates who lived locally who I became friendly with locally and I just started training them in my backyard and we just trained together so I wasn’t charging just strength condition first few first few months it was just like two mates so I had some kettle bells and we just train the garden kettle bell swings you press ups and we’d go and Sprint up this hill that’s around the corner and then it started growing then they started bringing mates and then they started bringing mates how was your knee in and around that training so I it’s interesting yes not great but it’s about load and I think I was trying to come back to be a professional Road player so you’re doing a lot so back then it was like I had a desk job and I do three circuit sessions a week and so the load’s much less so actually you could sort of manage it a bit better um because I was just doing three things a week rather than 10 or 15 so it’s all about load when you’re coming back from injuries like that um so before I knew I saw had this boot camp and then so you didn’t intend to build no I was and I started doing and I’d done a nutrition qualification so I started writing some little nutrition plans for people and then I I started charging because there were literally people turning up to this these sessions that I didn’t even know so I started I think charging cash um you remember how much oh it’s like 10 bucks was like five quid but you know we’d start getting 10 15 20 people yeah and I um then I met this kiwi guy who was running a very similar business so he had an actual big boot camp business really successful around Singapore and I had started doing the nutrition work and I had this like very small boot camp with the mates and then him and I met over a number of coffees and then we decided to open a personal training studio so we hir a space in Chinatown which is right next to the CBD so surrounded by skyscrapers just to the left of that or just beside that these all these small Chinese Shop houses and yeah we put some money down on at least 3 months up front bought the equipment and just built this s of quite small but Niche personal training studio and yeah I said this sort of purpose piece I was just so much happier training these people doing the nutrition plans some of the people I did the nutrition plans for had amazing results you know there was guy that lost like 20 kilos that was amazing feeling and then I was like well this and this is a sort of reason to go to work this a reason to get out bed and which I sort of felt like I’d missed for a year and you know there big quite a big Financial Risk you know taking a space in the middle of the sing CBD wasn’t cheap did you take a kind of mid to high level priced stance like what was your yeah so we we yeah we wanted to be Niche and we understood we had to understand very early what our sort of position in the market was and we just felt there was this massive opportunity because while there were some amazing gyms in Singapore people have throwing a lot of money at the for us the quality of people was very poor whereas there were a lot of very high net worth individuals very serious people in Singapore every Bank every hedge fund every insurance company [ __ ] broken company in the world are in Singapore in this sort of square mile so we felt there’s this huge opportunity if we get the right people really high quality people so it was all about the trainers it was all about so it’s all about the people about the quality of the trainers we brought in we started a physio business about the quality of the physios we brought in and we would just talk about the quality of our people we’ celebrate the quality of our people we’ talk about results would celebrate results and you know there were some gyms top of the skyscrapers millions and millions of dollars we had this sort of little niche sort of sweaty what kind of talk to me about the kit you have we did not spend a lot of money really basic stuff but then as we started expanding we took the space next door and then we took another space a few miles away and then another space CBD and then we started expanding in open four so how how big did it get uh so at the point I saw left Singapore I think we had 10 locations around Singapore and and you own you no had a couple of uh so some Partners so I was one of three basically okay so and was it an equitable split was it yeah I think I had 40% or something like that so and we had some other smaller investors um and look I I think the lesson i’ I’d always take from the is I was I was by no way by no means a business Expert I was by no means the biggest the best personal training in the world certainly wasn’t a physiotherapist but I think I just saw an opportunity and I think the thing we did well is we just saw that opportunity and we went for it um I think it would have been quite easy to go oh let’s do it a year maybe I should do some more qualifications yeah what do I know it’s always too easy to put it away again to push it off and I think if I had because the opportunity was then that you know if you’re opening gyms now in Singapore it’s much more challenging really happy to be honest about that I think you in life you need a little bit of luck and I think we got you just had Les less you know arguably you just had some you know particularly bad luck yeah some bad Lu but off the back of that i’ got some insurance money that probably allowed me to move Singapore and make a decision say it’s like we’re playing Monopoly every day and you’ll land on the [ __ ] ones you land on the great ones and you know ideally was Pasco and you know you you’ve definitely landed on yeah I you a few few squares you wouldn’t want to be yeah and um I think I yeah talk about resilience I think adaptability actually in many ways because move Singapore did a job I didn’t really like adapted found something I was passionate about there was a risk to it I was certainly not going to be paid much money for the first year or two you know my wife again was brilliant she had she’s always had um great career and like we’ve supported each other during different times how was it having kids at that time yeah well sing sing’s a brilliant place to have kids quite easy well the healthc care is amazing everything’s just quite easy it’s a lovely lifestyle we grew up kids grew up around the pool they were you know strong swimmers you by the pool every weekend how old are they now by the way um sorry 15 13 10 right um and two of them were born in Singapore one just before we left right so they’ve got sort of Singapore in passports yeah we had I think people ask me about my you know regrets and about rugby I think on balance I wouldn’t change anything because um the injury at that time I think I was very injury prone anyway the reality is would I have been one of these guys that played into my 30s probably not it could have been two months later yeah it could have been a year and two years later the injury at that point because we hadn’t really started having kids we were flexible and we had the opportunity to move to Singapore and I think that’s probably the best thing we ever did my wife and I was moved to Singapore just in terms of life experience see the world we did an awful lot of traveling I started this business which um you want a business award for that as well s expat entrepreneur award yeah look we as said you always you need a little bit of luck I think um we went for it at the right time um certainly made some mistakes along the way you learned a lot I think big thing for me was mentors I think we had some amazing people in our business in terms of our staff but also the people the the the paying customers coming in you’re talking about CEOs of banks CEOs of hedge funds so I had a couple of um people within that that I’d lean on I’d say oh can I take you for coffee they’d actually probably end up buying it anyway but um and I and I really benefited from some of those people within the business in the early days just giv me free advice and because you know I didn’t know anything really about accounting I essentially became the CEO and you become you need to become jack of all trades so learning a lot about accounting you don’t need to know everything but you need a decent understanding to accounting marketing like we we we started marketing pretty well we started that sort of using that really high quality imagery quite early celebrating our staff celebrating our clients success we got good branding as well yeah you know it’s really good branding yeah we went through some rebrands over the years and I think what I found is and I don’t know if you’d agree the second you’re honest about your capabilities and they lack thereof and especially you’ve got the right people that you’re talking to and I’ve had it with clients um you know of my agencies people are so supportive the second they’re like oh okay I can help you you know it’s just if if you put up a front and you know you pretend to be the best at everything all of the time yeah people don’t want to support you they they want to help you yeah and I’d say that I’ve got a lot of weaknesses I think that’s one of my strengths is knowing what I’m good at and what I’m not and I think being that that Honesty piece like understanding what you’re good at and where you need support for sure so where that for you where does that philosophy come from is it is there some you know is there something that I think I think learning from mistakes I think you know maybe in my past when I first started the business when things went wrong and a lot of things did go wrong I’d probably point at other people right and I can’t remember the the the point or where I learned but I think probably one of those mentors like I think you need to own everything that happens to you I think particularly when you’re in a leadership role of CEO or leading a business I think the worst thing you can ever do is point at the people below you in terms of mistakes being made I think because essentially you’re responsible for everything all on you but tops with you yeah so I think and I think when the people in your organization see you taking responsibility I think you get a lot of credibility even if you have made a mistake M I think um and likewise I say to my team and you doubtless said to yours if you make a mistake just own it and let’s learn yeah and I think when they see that um you get credibility even if you have made that mistake so um so what did you what happened to that business is it still in existence did you sell yes so I sold majority of my shares but kept a bit and then I stayed on the board five years still operating still doing great things we’ve built an amazing corporate business so we run all the well for LinkedIn and Asia cross Asia so Singapore Hong Kong was that life changing sale sell of your uh yeah it’s had yes definitely had a big impact on our family so came home and bought a house and um still long way to go and having three kids you never you never have as much money as you think I think that’s when I met you was 2019 just moved back you just moved back you had long moved back and uh so I came into huddle um you know chap Tigers yeah so in a great I opened a great little gy Chanel called yeah the Huddle we got we just do personal training small group training got a great little team Craig Rutherford local boy who you know I do know CRA manages it he’s doing a great job so I’m really proud of it Craig’s kind of done similar to what you’ve done you Singapore there’s a lot of the traveling a lot of the you know I know he’s quite a philosophical guy as well um great guy yeah excited it’s I said to him two days ago it’s just wonderful to see him doing well and you know I always celebrate anybody in everybody’s success and I think sometimes he’s a he’s a great guy really honest yeah very passionate very very good trainer passionate about helping his clients yeah so yeah um yeah great little business um so it’s nice to be doing that when say little business what’s your ambition um yeah I’d love to grow I think again I spoke to it earlier I think there’s you need a bit of luck so the time you we got our timing really right and Singapore I think the market is very quite crowded so you have to find again where’s your fit in the market so again it’s ch we’re just trying to be quite um holistic in terms of offering that personal training small group training there’s a lot of these 24-hour gyms now so we can’t compete with those you want to you know that’s the thing so again it’s about the quality you touched on quality of people yeah you’ve been in 24-hour gyms presumably you know I used to work in the gym that’s you know I was a gym instructor then PT and you know all those things class instructor whatnot you get in there and you go into one of these places and they don’t even there there’s not a stuff member to talk to there’s not there’s that’s their model they of course yeah so we have to differentiate ourselves and Craig’s very good at that so fantastic um but obviously I’ve got this other role gler harrey and so you came back and you got involved with harbury straightaway was it yeah I said Mark Co Johnny Goodridge were there they said just I didn’t really know what I was going to do I had a consultancy role with my business so I just ended up doing some coaching very part time at heartb yeah was that the men’s and women’s men’s start with and then it just evolved got asked if I’d help with the women’s team that was as a fors coach yeah fors coach dis and D um good fun I think I I never really thought I was going to be a full-time coach I I do enjoy the business how many days week were you doing that oh was I think to start with a couple of mornings and then it just evolved over time we we talk about timing because you came in you know with gluster harrey Team uh and now you’re CEO of of gluster harbury yeah just won Premier 15s last year yeah um phenomenal team you know I mean that Kings home day that day last year was incredible packed to King’s home yeah best attendance for a a women’s rugby match Women’s Club game a Women’s Club game I think world record for a club game I believe I might have been overtaken now do you think you’ve come into women’s rugby at a time when it’s really on the ascendency yeah look it’s it’s obviously again a bit about timing but genuinely I I loved coaching them I never thought I was the best coach in the world but had a passion for the group because there’s some absolute superstars in there they work so hard you know you’re Natasha hunts you’re Zoe orof Rachel Lun Tatiana herd these girls are just Superstars but we just probably didn’t have the squad squ there to really compete so we’re sort of a mid-table team but I can see what it meant to them these girls are just brilliant professionals great great players worldclass players um and I just felt back then that I could maybe help a bit on the commercial side so I sort of pitched to harbury to help com help the side commercially so I started doing sponsorship deals what was that you going out to businesses yeah bringing and then with that money we could then invest in the program invest in better players and then I was part of a process where we I sort of pitched to Gloucester rugby to have a strong relationship having a formal JV and basically for both organizations okay harbury and Gloucester to invest a bit more we felt that actually with a relatively small amount of investment where this team already was there was huge did you feel like it was kind of Gloster in name not in Partnership yeah it was it a bit of that there a bit of you know gluster come on that’s you come yeah there’s so much we could do here um there’s so much opportunity and and no one disagreed with me that was the thing it was like yeah you know Alex Brown CEO now it’s like yeah this the right thing to do that we they 100% saw the opportunity and agreed with me it wasn’t like I was pulling teeth so everyone’s been rowing in the right direction the same same direction sorry sponsorship conversations you had what were you doing just going to Big corporates yeah and they were harder back then um because the team was less high profile that’s you’re knocking on doors and saying give you know Chuck some money to women’s rugby without the eyeballs that necessarily probably bit more then about CSR now there’s probably a bit where it’s bit CSR and a return on investment in terms of eyeballs on the game there’s a big TNT deal we had 10,000 people at the final so I think that day you obviously I feel like I missed out a bit on Rugby um end of my career but seeing the players the staff how hard everyone worked over a number of years it wasn’t always easy for us we were finishing fifth every year every year we were losing to SAR Quinns by like a point just missing out so to see um to win that final at twick in front of that crowd the Sun out and see how happy our players were and our staff were after all the hard work that got in that was really that was up right up there for me terms of highlights my career is really how these things come back around I bet when you were sat in that office in Singapore you never thought that you’d be stood back at King’s home with a winning Gloster team no absolutely not yeah wouldn’t have thought about women’s rugby or um but yeah just I genuinely feel privileged to I’m CEO so said she lead the organization how did you become was it so with over time with the sort of yeah with the coaching and then I had this sort of commercial role for glost harbury they then I’d sort of um written this white paper around how we should the two organizations could invest a bit more in the team and then off the back of that we we formally formed this joint venture so a lot of work went that a lot of legal work um to set that up and then obviously with the bigger investment it was a more serious thing so they wanted a CEO and obviously I was asked to apply for that role and and got it um but yeah feel really privileged to to lead that group of players and staff the they awesome world class what I mean what do you think the world of women’s rugby look like in the future you know in the near future it’s so exciting the World Cup next year they they sold 63,000 tickets last year for the France game twick incredible as well um I’ve no doubt they’ll sell out twickham next year for the World Cup um there’s a lot of investment going into community and we talk about our purpose a lot um so our purpose of gloss heart we to inspire the next generation of young female athletes in our community and if you were at that game which I think you were I took my kids and you noticed the crowd it’s quite different the audience quite different it was very different it was a lot more family and young family and young and you can basically go as a family you go as a family of four for 20 quid fantastic 20 quid for a family of four um sorry 30 quid um yeah great day out girls play great rugby the ball play time’s really high really high that’s you know that’s the thing that I guess my introduction to women’s rugby was years ago you know watched you know watched it over the years Maggie Alon and you know people like that over the years but the balling play time is something that you do notice is significantly higher why is that um I think well look first and foremost girls really skillful I think the skill level’s gone through the roof over the last few years honestly the players probably don’t obviously kick the ball as far as the men so there’s there’s this element there’s a tiny bit more territorial well there’s an element of well actually if if you’re not you know if you’re not Stern for um for zfu punts the ball 70 meters away if you’re not kicking the ball that far there’s maybe less benefit of kicking the ball away like keep the ball play rugby yeah and try and make your sense try and make your 30 40 meters by keeping the ball Alive Now obviously Gloucester harby do play fairly pragmatic game we do play a territory game we’ve got two of the best kickers in the world at nine and 10 um but we do try and entertain the girls call themselves a circus so we try and uh we try and entertain our fans I think they do that and I think the impact they’ve had on our communi is massive over the last year or two I remember just before the final we won the semi and then the next week we were front and back page of the citizen obviously I grew up yeah I was regular on the back page of the citizen as a male player but to see the girls on the front and back page of s and I remember I took photos and I put it on our sort of teams group and I said this is the impact you’re having because this would just not have happened two three years ago like to be front and P back page of the local newsp paper and they were basically saying girls have done it get to the final yeah that was yeah one of those one of those really special moment really special moment for the city as well I think yeah I’ve argued like these girls are your team they’re the city’s team um they they a lot of them you know munt um Ellie Ellie rugman they grew up Forester Dean um the gluster girls really proud to play for this city so yeah to get that sort of 10,000 attendance at the final was it was it was a surpr like we hoped but probably it was better than we hoped and yeah just fantastic day can you ever see a marquee kind of million pound a year female player so I know in Australia um I think rug the rugby league and the NRL women I think the budgets are getting much much bigger I know as CEO of gloss har that our budgets have dramatically increased over the last two or three years is that public yeah I think so and obviously we’ll be a limited company so I think you know we we have we we have minimum operating standards so what what’s the typical budget for a squad so I I think I think a lot of these women’s teams will be up towards a million pounds a year now so spread across how many players in the 800 so that sorry that’s not salary cap so sorry the salary cap um the salary cap right now is 190 so it’s it’s relatively small but in terms of budget for physios coaches I think teams will be because you have to hit these minimum operating standards so I think teams will be around the sort of 800k million pound Mark at the moment in terms of but I think my I think my goal is like while obviously I’d absolutely love these players to match what the boys earn yeah think they deserve it but obviously there’s a reality here terms TV deals number of people at game so we’re not we’re not there yet and we have to be pragmatic and there’s a lot to celebrate we have to be sustainable but my goal CEO and we’re not quite there yet is I’d love the program to be the same standard as the boys so the opportunity the snc the medical the quality of facilities the kit the nutrition the food they get after training so my goal and I don’t think we’re million miles off but we’ve got a way to go i’ would love the programs to be the same what tips you to what tips you to that point what what do you need to get to that point well you looking at sponsorship deals um look we need we need more people attending to drive revenues we need more sponsorship deals what does a sponsorship deal look like at this level uh so yeah I don’t mind being open about it so our sponsorship now is between sort of five and 6,000 and then we wear the same match kit as the boys so we have we have sponsorship deals between 56,000 and 45,000 and everything in between so and look the response from the city’s been brilliant we’ve got some brilliant sponsors in the community um particularly after we won the fin that obviously makes conversations a little bit easier with the profile so look we’re not there yet but like we for example we don’t feed the players as much as I’d like I’d love to be able to give them really great nutrition food after every me after every session they train in Ary or so we split between Kings and harbury and the facilities of both are absolutely world class so as I said the program has come a long long way and I’m obviously driven to deliver that sort of equity um in the program not quite we’re not quite there with salaries yet but hopefully that can keep what’s an average salary well look I mean you you can work out so right now it’s 190 and you’re probably you’re probably paying 30 players yeah so there are a lot of these players that are also doing other things to to yeah so so actually the majority so majority the girls the senior girls who are in international squads earn more of their money from Central contract so red roses Wales Island are starting to look at more Central contracts um Scotland as well I think have 25 Central contracts England have 3540 I think okay PE girls contracted how many of how many of the players we’ve come so far I remember a couple years ago I think we had a couple of injuries but zo Olof who’s one of our co- captains I think one for one six nations was maybe the only player going over to red roses right I think we had we had sort of eight core girls and then two young players who got invited to train so we had something like 10 going training that Squad of 30 it was a wider Squad so maybe it’s 40 but we had something like 10 girls and then and that’s actually s we had similar numbers training when we were sort of doing well in 03 I think we had about 8 10 boys regly going into England Camp yeah so it’s a good sign yeah and then 12 Welsh 12 Welsh two Irish two Spanish 12 Welsh and they’re centrally contracted as well yeah I think oh wow okay so do you have the majority of the players fulltime d we still have a lot of dual career players who are really important to our program who have jobs they physios and teachers and uh police women so obviously we still really relying on them uh but there are more each year more and more will be sort of fulltime is again salaries don’t match the boys but they are fulltime some of them are still studying at harbury and they’ll dip into our daytime sessions lessons from the professionalization of rugby in 95 through to I guess when you started playing are the lessons from them that are both either applicable or avoidable now in the women’s game um I think I think what the league have done well is um I think they have learned some of the lessons but I think what really important I don’t think it’s helpful to necessarily talk about it I think the men’s games come a long way they obviously went through that transition from amate to professional I think it was challenging where where they still were dual career players at a certain point right so yeah and I think I think what we’ve done I see on the ren reation committee um and we have regular commercial calls so like we’re trying to grow in a really sustainable way I I’m s on this committee that chooses what the salary cap will be and how we Ren numerate players and doing things like sitting education outside of the cap seeing apprentices outside the cap sitting uh some rent agreement for some players outside the cap so really trying to support the players but while growing in a sustainable way so I think that’s that key I guess the key lesson is um that those revenues need to be there we can’t be growing above revenues it need to be sustainable what does success look like in the next couple of years for women’s rugby to you um well for glester harbury we’re really ambitious we I said we want to inspire our community we want to try and finish top two every year because when you finish top two you get home semi and if you get home semi it um really increases your chances of winning that and getting to a final so look we happy to say we’re a team that want to finish top two in the league every year what we hope is obviously with the World Cup next year we get a massive um bump in awareness and uh attendances and sponsorship you know we’re hoping those games across the World Cup next year sell out is King home hosting uh they’re not actually unfortunately but I think Bristol are obviously Kings home is for like World Cup um 10 capacity 16,000 so they’ve given a lot of the games to football stadiums right actually Sunderland Brighton okay so they’re trying and get like 30 40,000 people to these games so it’s really exciting really exciting times and hopefully that can have a knock on effect in terms of participation in the community a lot of money is going to community initiatives pre-work up to try and get numbers to into the game into into watching games are there the same concerns in the women’s game as there are and I’d love to speak to you know some you know um to Mo and you know players like that are they the same CTE type concerns the same you know head injury concerns in the women’s gam as are the women in the men’s game oh yeah of course you think it’s blighting it in a similar way um yeah but it’s just about I guess hear this following the science uh postco but yeah so obviously we’re massively conscious of it we have very strict protocols around concussion now the Rugby’s in a very different place you seen those gum Shields some you have yes the girls all have girls have the impact gum Shields we run we share the but um yeah I love I love the sport I hear parents that even played the sport that you talk about I wouldn’t have my child play rby and you know I think we need to answer those questions and more I again it’s about those honest conversations I think uh understanding the science putting protocols in place tackle technique um yeah there’s a lot around it’s a lot different so I started playing in 99 when I was 11 um and it’s a lot different now back to you versus what it was like then that’s what it was like when you only a few years prior had probably started playing um I I think the people you know people have always done the best for the players with the knowledge and the information they have um yeah I think obviously have been some issues with concussion uh but hopefully the game’s moving the right direction guess a lot of your peers were possibly in that we played I guess in that worst era where it got hugely physical everyone got very big but the tackle high was very high we Tau yeah we coached to tackle fairly high and you protols weren’t quite what they are today but you were taught to tackle that high like to is that like a ball dislodging well we obviously yeah technique thing yeah and obviously you short the ball and yeah yeah stopped that FL it was we there’s obviously a heavy rugby league influence best coach you’ve ever played for God I I probably would probably would say Dean I think uh did it help that he was a back roow as well yeah yeah um de was incredibly Innovative I think he came with this three pod system I think he really thought outside the box so Ben Ryan was a coach by as well but only at sort of school boy level very quite similar actually very Innovative um yeah Dean obviously was challenging he he would definitely challenge you challenge me a hell of a lot challenge you on bits if you weren’t playing well um certainly hard task master but I think I think his knowledge of the game is understanding the way he looked at it the way he evolved the game that three pod system we played that was very successful for a couple of years suited my game so um re enjoyed it and I guess it coincides with sort my favorite period of my career so the big I would I would say Dean I think what was the biggest bollin you ever got from that would definitely be Dean as well uh there were probably every Monday for about four or five years um what would he get on he had actually Dean for a while had an office above our gym over on the Lion’s Den the other side so we used to train in there and then there was there’s offices upstairs and most Mondays there’d be a sort of knock on the glass pain and you’d look up you just point at me and go and you go off and he’d have his laptop with your Clips um obviously where I played I guess I was quite high risk wasn’t I I took some risks and made some mistakes along the way so there were definitely some Bings in there over the years any memorable ones um I I do just remember just I think I don’t I don’t remember ever getting bollocking for like Behavior or anything like that or it would all drinking or it was it was always um bad decisions on the pitch I remember we played Paris um in the Hardington cup I think it was my job if they threw the back of the line out it’s my job to sack so we decided that game to sack their mall and they threw the back line but it’s like 55 M out and I missed it I I I forgot where I was being dopy or I just missed the sacking and they actually I think they from memory they drove us like 55 M I don’t remember but for Dean Bas is something along the lines is that’s why you’re not playing for England at the moment I like the D was 55 M but um yeah I remember real bollocking off that incident and it’s always you in those days I imagine it’s different now but it was always in front of the whole Squad so Monday 40 Lads um video clips and yeah if Dean uh wasn’t happy you knew about it I guess you played your whole career at glester you after B so you you never played for you’ve only ever played for two clubs Mighty B and uh glester glester what does it mean to you to have only been yeah I think special I I had a couple of opportunities over the years like other clubs um but I always just felt home here obvious I think Kings Z is such a special place and everyone talks about it but many ways I my favorite memories are at King Zone rather than say twick them even though some good Twi just the atmosphere almost feels like there’s more people there uh had a great group of mates we were having success probably not quite achieving what we would have liked but always felt like we were there or thereabouts so I I’ve never seriously considered leaving and will you offer anything big uh I don’t know about MoneyWise but um I I had some approaches from very serious some um high up League teams I I sort of semic considered but um I yeah did any kind of have you considering it harder than others um yeah like I think I I think I did have a con there was a conversation with was one point obviously I think they were doing good things but is around that sort of 034 I think so Gloucester were right there or thereabouts and all my best mates play for Gloucester and you know you know looking back was obviously went on to achieve a lot so um so yeah but I I don’t have regrets I I love playing this club I’m proud fact I only play for one Club um as I said I’m still very close to a lot the I played with so yeah no regrets on that note then best forward you’ve ever played with so yeah it would it would be as said very lucky to play behind the pack I played against so it would be vix or Trev so T Trev Woodman or Phil vicory don’t know if I could pick between those two I mean vix obviously had a longer amazing career I think there was a period around that World Cup where Trevor’s unbelievable not underrated because he was rated highly but even better than that yeah probably again people made him to the best of him because I think the best Rob he ever played was after that World Cup he came back I remember I think the two or three weeks Premiership weeks in a row where he scored like winning tries from like 40 meters and he was breaking the line and stepping the fullback and Trevor’s unbelievable athlete so Trevor and Vick can’t I can’t can’t separate them what about favorite back you played with best back I hate to though but probably has to be simbba doesn’t it Jason I played couple of I think Jason was my captain when I was got those caps for England so Jason Robinson obviously talking England hit okay but I think Simba just uh the thing people don’t realize about Simba you they talk about his all those magical moments but his consistency he never made a mistake I don’t think people quite realize what how good his skill set was like his passing his pass catch I like go through if you went through videos he you wouldn’t find he wouldn’t drop the ball he’d never drop the ball he’d never make a poor pass that all his passes would spot on um so he’s actually like this sort of everyone talks about this amazing gifted attacking player but actually he was so consistent he would have never been dropped for Gloucester which is a hell of a thing glester is a top team I guarantee in that 15-year period there wouldn’t be one game where he wouldn’t have been first name on the team sheet and that was just his consistency so um him as a player but I think people un undervalue underrate his total game like he was unbelievable I’m going to make you do it between the three of them pick pick the best oh I guess just because of what he achieved you have to go vix uh like some of his moments you know was it olivan man he absolutely smashed like his ball carry his defense uh look I was very lucky I played with a lot of amazing players but I think what Vick’s achieved and like the level he played at uh when he was at his best and when he wasn’t he obviously picked up a lot of injuries over the years but he was unbelievable who’s the hardest player you’ve ever played with so Andy Hazel just Fearless you know for his size like unbelievable athlete but just absolutely Fearless yeah and actually so Alex Brown people often jokes the hardest Posh blo you’ll ever meet brownie so I think brownie he broke the I can’t imagine he broken but he broke the record for consecutive premiership games and also without coming off so I think he went 88 games so he started 88 Premier games in a row wow without coming off one minute that’s incredible so that’s basically Four Seasons without missing a minute that’s ridiculous and he used to smash like his defense mean he didn’t take a backward step he was um his defense he one the best second Ro you I ever you’ll ever see uh so yeah very hard particularly for a posh BL he’s nearly as po as me on that note did you play with Jim Hamilton then was he your era England 21’s with Jim I think he join the club after me yeah okay I’d never give him credit for anything I wouldn’t call him harest BL uh I love good great lad Jim and well um true is it true he’s got the England Rose tattooed he did yeah he did when we play when he had it but he had it covered up oh he’s had it covered up that’s why yeah so when we played in 21s he had like a England rose on his arm and then I would have done the exact same thing as soon as he got Scotland it was all like huge arm sleeve tattoos and really like pleased for him what he’s achieved he’s doing fantastic thing he’s very he’s actually people are good at what they do I think they make it look easy and I think Jim is very good at what he does he’s very good at the podcast stuff the commentating and he makes it look quite easy just because I think he’s very likable he’s yeah he’s good fun he’s likable bloke and but I think he speaks really well he knows rugby uh he’s obviously a really good player for Gloucester but I think we just missed each other so didn’t only play with them F 21s what’s your favorite sport in memory we had that obviously the European um European final score to try but I think I think just in terms of what it meant to the community what it meant to us as a team was that 03 cup yeah the pwon cup padon cup just I think the city city be probably been starved of success for a while yeah um I think Full House was at 75,000 King the noise was unbelievable I remember delalio and Gus were commentating you watch it back and they couldn’t actually speak and they went back to the studio because they couldn’t hear yeah because of the noise on the touch line I think I was very spoiled to come into a you know supporting a Gloster team that had you lot in it and then you know I think there were a few a few years it wasn’t quite as successful yeah yeah certainly had some up down so I’d say3 and actually the girls winning the final in June was really special um just uh after a lot of hard work and they deserve that so I i’ pick that right up there those two moments so one play and one one play and one just CEO not probably really doing very much but just you being a part of you know you you get to be part of their success in you know bringing the the sponsorship to the four bringing you know bring in yeah and I help with some of the Recruitment and stuff but I think I just think for me like Le leadership philosophy I don’t think uh leaders and organization should should take credit because you know the co it was the coaches it was the players on the pitch you know um I think you have to take responsibility when things go badly but I I would definitely not want to take any credit for that win but it was great to be part of it that’s wonderful and what’s your favorite off field memory with your teammates I think like t m go those moments in the change room like I there’s photos actually of they have all those old traditional baths that twicker them so all single yeah yeah and there’s loads of photos of us in those baths after winning the pan cup again I just think it is those moments is those moments in the Chang room it’s like relief as well because it’s big final lot of pressure 75,000 people like getting the Chang room with your mates just having a beer that for me you can’t they’re the meor they’re the memories I won’t forget um yeah any escapades I’m not gonna do man good man I’m glad I’m not going anywhere well done I’m glad I’m going do Jim Hamilton Stitch everyone up um I didn’t I didn’t come prepared for stories no um lot of lot of very funny moments but um who’s the funniest player on the team oh we had some big characters Chris 40 like Coral Leon ly was very funny guy actually I actually can you edit that up don’t give him credit for that but um yeah like those old boy like um those boys had gone through the amateur like Andy de Chris 40 Mark corwell I remember we great mate of mine who joined the club called Chris Park U Chris’s brother James Parks really good mate at mine he was the s x to snc for years after after rugby but he’ll be honest like he was always like our third choice hooker so he went from r a few clubs he’s always sort of the third choice hook of it he was like brilliant professional brilliant lad so he always got contracts just because he’s a great team player good rugby player yeah and I do remember we went we had like our first block of pre-season it’s a really tough block four weeks train hard and then we all went for beer in Melo so this would be like August so we’re standing on that strip in monel having a beer and uh I we were sort of youngish so we sort of stood in a group of the youngish boys and I think Mark cormer walked past us to go through the toilet and this new lad was obviously trying to be Keen trying to impress so we all had pintes of beer and parksy it’s the middle of the afternoon he had a pint of water and Mark cor just walked past double tur stopped looked at him and went what’s that mate he didn’t even use his name probably didn’t even know his name what’s that mate he went oh uh water he just looked at him shook his head went you’re not going to fit in here and walked off brilliant absolute Savage but that we yeah we had we had some good fun and that was sort of mentality loss during that period like we did train really hard yeah but we definitely went out and had a beer as well wonderful you got named in the Hall of Fame yes dinner on Saturday yeah what did that mean to you uh it did mean it did I’m not going to lie it did mean quite a lot yeah not going to lie I’m not going to sit here and go oh it doesn’t bother me it was it was a nice moment I think it was a nice gesture from the club to do it I think it was voted for by fans and yeah I think as I said earier if you notice that team is is largely that 03 team like a big chunk of it is that sort of 03 team I think the back row is myself Jake and hazy I think um yeah so look it means a lot I’m passionate about the club means a lot to me uh so to get that recognition was was it was nice yeah what do you want to achieve next what a success like to you now in in you know not just glester harbury but what is the next few years for you it sounds cheesy but um family I think is always first so you know I’ve definitely have points in my career where I’ve been really focused on on Career like Singapore building that business my wife was working really hard we were very quite career focused so I think soon as we move back we’ve you made a really big effort to at least one of us always be there for kids like drop off kids pick up being around in the evening so I think first foremost just yeah want to um be there for my kids be like a dad that goes to their sporting games and stuff it’s not even always easy because I’m balancing I guess I’m ambiti trying to trying to build a career I’m look I’m really focused on my job moment I’m really passionate about this group of players and staff being CE lost harbury I think very lucky and I said big goal of mine is I would love I program to match the men’s in terms of the opportunity for these girls I think they really deserve it I yeah I’ve got massive admiration for them so I think just short term you be be a good dad be a good husband um try and do the best I can for this group of players and staff and would love to win some more premierships um but most importantly like this Equity bit I think these girls deserve a lot and I think if we can deliver them the best program in the world and try and get it as close to the men in terms of um all those opportunities I think that’s my sort of shortterm goal James thank you so much man have you got any uh like it’s been brilliant um but I’ve definitely feel like I’ve talked about myself myself enough for one day two hours if you appreciate um look want to want to really Elevate the this group of girls so if you ever want me to come back and bring couple of the players along absolutely love that think girls like Mo Zoe are really inspirational uh some of the best athletes in the world proud of my time at Glon um you know you try not to talk about it too much and but um I think the city loves loves gluster rugby and uh yeah it’s quite fun talk him about it so yes it’s been really really good mate thank you so much for coming in pleasure cheers James thank you so so much to James for his time thank you to you for listening watching whatever you do wherever you do it uh make sure you subscribed review all those lovely things follow us on social blah blah um you’ll find us uh get in touch hello at startline pod.com with any thoughts questions concerns guest suggestions um sponsorship ideas cool things yeah speak to me talk to me uh until next time goodbye forever [Music]