O Centro Soberania e Clima realizará, em 24 de maio, às 10h, a quarta e última parte do Ciclo de Webinars “Clima, Sustentabilidade e Defesa”, com o tema “Defesa e novas tecnologias sustentáveis no Setor da Aviação”.
Esse Ciclo de Webinars é promovido em parceria com o Núcleo de Capacitação em Economia de Defesa e Desenvolvimento de Força (NCAD) da Escola Superior de Defesa (ESD), o Projeto NETZMIL, apoiado pela Vice-Reitoria da Loughborough University (Reino Unido), e pela Associação Brasileira das Indústrias e Materiais de Defesa (ABIMDE).
O objetivo do Ciclo é debater os desafios e as oportunidades que a agenda das mudanças climáticas traz para a segurança e defesa nacionais, compreendendo desde as visões atuais com base nas iniciativas governamentais em andamento, até análises prospectivas referentes às tecnologias empregadas no enfrentamento e na mitigação dos efeitos impostos por essas mudanças.
Neste sentido, alguns dos tópicos a serem discutidos incluem os potenciais cenários e desafios para as operações militares no contexto de descarbonização, os desafios de implementação da agenda nos âmbitos político e econômico, desafios e oportunidades de inovação tecnológica e a atuação da indústria de defesa, reflexos desta agenda nas relações entre a defesa e a sociedade civil, entre outros. O Ciclo está sendo realizado conforme a seguinte programação:
16 de novembro/2023: Webinar – Mudanças Climáticas e Defesa Nacional
1 de Março/2024: Webinar – Inovações Sustentáveis e Economia de Defesa
26 de abril/2024: Webinar – Estado, Indústria de Defesa e Transição Energética
24 de maio/2024: Webinar – Defesa e Novas Tecnologias Sustentáveis no Setor da Aviação
Neste quarto e último webinar, intitulado “Defesa e novas tecnologias sustentáveis no Setor da Aviação”, pretendemos discutir acerca dos avanços da pesquisa e do desenvolvimento de tecnologias visando à redução das emissões no setor da aviação, tais como a eletrificação de aeronaves, o desenvolvimento de alternativas aos combustíveis fósseis, com especial destaque para o combustível sustentável (SAF), entre outros. Mais especificamente, este webinar buscará responder às seguintes perguntas:
Quais as principais iniciativas que o setor da aviação tem desenvolvido no que se refere à descarbonização?
Quais os principais desafios que o setor enfrenta e quais os impactos representados no setor da aviação civil, militar e da indústria?
Quais as oportunidades de atuação para o Brasil e para o Reino Unido no contexto do desenvolvimento de tecnologias que possibilitem alternativas aos combustíveis fósseis, como o SAF e o e-SAF?
Essas e outras questões serão debatidas pelos seguintes especialistas de diferentes setores:
Andrew Sweeney, Líder de Estratégia de Aviação Sustentável (RAF)
Prof. Dra. Amanda Duarte Gondim, Coordenadora da Rede Brasileira de Bioquerosene e Hidrocarbonetos Sustentáveis para Aviação (RBQAV)
José Luis Gonçalves de Almeida, Gerente Executivo no SENAI CIMATEC
Dr. Tiago Sousa Pereira, Diretor da Agência Nacional de Aviação Civil (ANAC)
Moderação: Prof. Dr. Duncan Depledge, Pesquisador Chefe do Projeto NETZMIL e Professor de Geopolítica e Relações Internacionais (Loughborough University)
the climate sustainability and Defense webinar series during which we’ve been fostering discussions on the challenges and opportunities climate change brings to National Security and Defense according to perspectives from Brazil and the UK this Event series Have been hosted by the sovereign and climate Center and organized in partnership with the brazilian superior Defense College the net zero military Project at Lu University in the United Kingdom by AB My name is dunc deedge I’m a Senior lecturer at Lub University and the Lead investigator on the net zero militaries Project and today I’ m going to be moderating this session on Defense and the new Green Technologies in the aviation sector I absolutely honored and delighted to Welcome our guests Dr amando Gin Dr Jose Lis galvez Drago perira and Mr Andrew Sweeney by Way of background and to introduce the speakers Amanda is lecturer in chemistry at the Federal University of Rio Grand and is the coordinator of the laboratory of biofuels primary processing processing and environmental analyzes of pra she holds bsc and MSC and a phd in chemistry and she also coordinates the Brazilian Network of bi kerosine and renewable hydrocarbons she is an Expert in environmental chemistry at the Rio Grande Grande de Norte Public Ministry and leads research projects on Oil residue valuation biodiesel production water Quality environmental contamination renewable hydrocarbon and hydrogen focusing on bi kerosene and Green diesel Jose Louis is Executive Manager at Senai sitech responsible for petrochemical refining Energy efficiency Pulp and Paper environment and Safety Jose Lis is also responsible for the decarbonization and Low Carbon H2 projects in the chemistry area and the h2v Atlas for the state of Bia he has two degrees in Chemical Engineering including a Masters a phd in catalysis and is also a full member Of The Academy of sciences ofia Tiago is the director of the Brazilian civil aviation Agency and also occupies the position of acting President Director before joining the board of directors he was responsible for several departments at the same Agency Tiago also worked for the Central Bank of Brazil and the Ministry of planning development and Management He is a career civil servant a government Executive of the Ministry of Management and Public Services innovation and a lecturer of economics and regulation at the Brazilian institute of development teaching and research he also has a PHD in economics from the University of Brazil and finally Andrew is a squadron Leader in the Royal Air Force with over a decade of Experience as an aerospace engineer in the Defense aviation sector currently He is the Leader of the Royal Air forces sustain sustainable aviation strategy he created the blueprint for the Defense aviation net zero strategy which outlines the pathway to achieve the ras aspiration on net zero 2040 goal Since its release he’s been developing the program to deliver this Vision working in partnership with stakeholders from Defense Industry academia and wider government in addition to previous Experience and Engineering focused roles Andrew was selected for a prestigious Royal Air Force Chief of the air Sta fellowship attending the University of Cambridge to study inil and Engineering for sustainable development his Project was entitled assessing the vulnerability in net zero aviation strategies to military decarbonization pathways before we begin just as a bit of housekeeping during this first Part of Our webinar I will be drawing Opening questions from our guests and each of our guests will have 10 minutes to answer After this first round there’ll be some Brief followup questions which you each have two minutes to respond to and then during The Last 30 minutes of the webinar we will welcome questions from our audience so to begin with and starting with Amanda Amanda Could you please share an overview of the current development stage of alternatives to Fossil fuels in Brazil Hello Everyone Good morning, it’s a pleasure here, thank you for the introduction, it’s good in Brazil at the moment, unfortunately, we don’t have saf production, right, some projects have been announced, including to start the construction of biorefineries now in August, right, several projects announced But none actually worked When we talk about technology we already have some developed right And they are the ones that are mainly applied, right, that is vegetable oils, vegetable oils already have a very high trl. Of course, the development of this technology has been advancing to improve the economic issue of using catalysts, using hydrogen produced by the Plant itself in order to reduce operational costs, right ? This is a matter of evolution and maturity of the technology, right? In Brazil, we also have a very strong interest in the True Jet alcohol atj route because We have a very significant production of water and alcohol in Brazil, so given that, this is this other technology of great interest, it doesn’t have the maturity of the ref yet, it’s on a scale of trl, a little between seven and oo, right in the world, but in the Brazil, yes, there is great interest. Furthermore, right, I, as a researcher, inform you that new forms have been emerging in the literature, right, By electrochemistry, through photocatalysis, of productions, of course, in trls, still very low, right, no, I’m not expressive, and I would like to focus here for those who are listening to us, that really So , Brazil’s great advantage is the availability of this biomass, right ? advanced, what helps us to have this biomass at our disposal, right? To be able to work, right? So this one, right? brings our eyes to Brazil, right? This issue of biomass availability, we hope that this will advance, right? building a, uh, a bill where I encourage, right, industrialization, the construction of biorefineries, the Brazil model is a mandatory model, right, so it’s a model that’s different from Europe, which is a model that’s more incentives and punitive and different from United States, which is an incentive for investment, right, they encourage investment, our model is a mandatory model where we, by law, oblige the use and not in the case of non-use. Is there any type of punishment, so as we introduce biofuels in Brazil and as soon as we reached, today, 50% of the liquid fuels used in Brazil are from renewable sources with the help of alcohol and biodiesel, which are already used, so we advanced in this way and in this same model we will now advance in PL with the addition of the saf of Green diesel and biomethane, right, so we hope that this bill, right? It really transforms an environment, an environment in Brazil, favorable to this industrialization, I think that’s it, or even that’s the message for us it’s here open Thank very much Amanda for setting US off with this webinar with that introduction to brazil’s potential in this Space we turn Now to Jose Lis um Jose Lis How do you visualize development of a Market of alternative to fossil fuels from the Industry Perspective is Vision Good morning everyone, thank you very much, I would like to thank you very much for the privilege of being here with you, see, it is a privilege on my part and thank you very much to all the organizers of the event, see, I have one, I have prepared something to comment on with you, right? the market for the development of alternatives to fossil fuels in Aviation is in a period of transition and growth, the industry is increasingly aware of the need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, right? and is investing in sustainable technologies such as the electrification of aircraft and the development of alternative fuels, like saf, it is believed that electrification would be very suitable for small aircraft, hydrogen for medium-sized aircraft, and saf, or alternative fuels for large aircraft, sustainable aviation fuel, saf, is one of these promising alternatives, producing from renewable energy sources such as vegetable oils, as Amanda commented just now, saf is an alternative to aviation kerosene, one of the main pollutants in the sector, ok, as the production of sustainable aviation fuel is in its infancy, it faces technical and financial obstacles Among them, the high production cost and the demand for large-scale production stand out. It is important to remember that this sector of alternative fuels is still an emerging field however as technology advances it is expected to become competitive in the market for production and effective use of sustainable aviation fuel it is necessary to consider several important premises firstly saf needs to be blended safely with Jet A1 in various degrees Currently, airlines can mix a maximum of 50% of saf in their tanks following the standards established by stm 4054. Furthermore, saf must be able to use the same existing fueling and airport infrastructure. it must require significant adaptations of aircraft or engines to be used, another crucial aspect is that the saf must meet sustainability criteria such as the reduction of carbon emissions throughout the entire life cycle, in addition, the production of this fuel must not compete with food production nor cause deforestation; finally, saf production must have limited freshwater requirements in its production process. Alternatives to fossil fuels in Aviation are in constant development and the industry has to focus on several production routes, one of these routes is that of fatty acids and these hydropresses, Efa, which uses oils and fats as raw materials, ronell is one of the companies that provides technology for the development of saf through this route, another route is synthetic paraffinic kerosene, Fisher trop sintic paraffine kerosen, which uses resources solids from biomass such as wood waste, there is also, as Amanda commented, the alcohol wheel to Jet n ATG atj which produces saf from ethanol and also other alcohols lanz Tec and gevo are companies that are using this technology In other words, they make this technology and the isoparaffin route synthesized from fermented sugars and hydropress that produces safes from fermented sugars, the company Mires is the holder of this technology. In addition, we have the Kerosene route of catalytic hydrothermolysis C I think it is ara and euglena is the route of paraffinic kerosene synthesized by biodiv hydrocarbons, each production method has a maximum limit for the amount that can be incorporated into the Jet A1, as regulated by stm 4054, the volume of synthetic fuel that can be added varies according to the production process used and can reach 10 30 or even 50% of the Total volume there are several airports around the world that already distribute sustainable aviation fuel for example London H airport or fuel emirates planes with saf in May 2024 In addition Melbourne international airport Orlanda in Florida has also increased the supply of saf in Brazil there is great potential for the production of biofuels for aviation and the country is preparing to be a protagonist in this scenario it is estimated that the adoption of saf could reduce up to 80% of saf emissions CO2 from aviation in Brazil, the production of aviation fuel will be explored by some industries, Embra Air, for example, signed an agreement with AFU to expand the use of SAF with the expectation of receiving more than 900 liters of fuel at a larger heisen Global producer of sugarcane ethanol is evaluating sites in Brazil for an ethanol-based saf plant for technological challenges The aviation industry requires a range of skills including cybersecurity specialists, data scientists and engineers to manage and maintain efficiency to advanced technologies Furthermore, the regulatory environment is another challenge faced by the aviation industry in relation to market challenges, decarbonization is fundamental to the competitiveness of Brazil and its companies on the global stage, representing the creation of opportunities and reduction of so-called transition risks However, decarbonization requires measures that reduce greenhouse gas emissions and increase energy efficiency in the defense sector. Decarbonization can have significant impacts. The transition to cleaner and more efficient technologies can lead to improvements in operational efficiency and reduced energy costs. fuel In addition, sustainable technologies can give more visibility to the image and the reputation of defense forces allying with global efforts to combat climate change in short, the transition to a more sustainable assessment is a complex challenge involving technical financial and regulatory issues, however with industry commitment and support With appropriate policies it is possible to make progress towards MG chour How isabora with National and International fors to Ensure the implementation and certification of those New Technologies in addition What are the Main challenges and opportunities that you identify adain eh Bom dia danc Amanda José Luiz Andrew Well, it’s a great pleasure to be here to debate this subject, which today is one of ANAC’s main priorities and one of the main challenges of Brazilian Civil Aviation, right? I’m going to start, this is my first intervention, talking a little about our challenges, right? Aviation is already the most popular mode of transport in interstate Brazil, but it is still not universal, right? We practically have classes A and B here in Brazil, with less than 30% of the population flying and a country that unfortunately has a matrix of transport very based on road transport, right, so we have remote areas, and with difficult access, so access only by boat, right, there is no aviation, so it’s an essential good, an essential service, but unfortunately, still for income reasons average of the country, the question of the cost of the ticket ends up not yet fulfilling, in our vision, its role of regional integration , national integration. In this context, our main challenge is this, right? How to reconcile the sustainability of aviation with our need to of using air transport as a modal that actually integrates the country, right? And considering that the cost factor is a key element, right? People will adopt air transport as it becomes cheaper, however, like Amanda, You mentioned in your speech We still have technologies that are still in development, but they haven’t reached the necessary scale and haven’t been approved yet. We still don’t produce saf in an industrial way. So that’s the big point, right? That’s Brazil’s big challenge in this trajectory. of decarbonization how do we decarbonize the sector and also in a way that does not impact or mitigate the negative impacts of decarbonization on the growth and popularization universalization of Brazilian air transport this is our big challenge, right? Internationally, moving on to the first danca’s question eh we have we now have a discussion eh Brazil is present right Anak is present through its specialist technicians in the main international discussions not the main one there in the international Civil Aviation organization is the Protection committee Environmental caep we have accents in this committee we discuss the certification of fuels and the definition of decarbonization goals and our big thing, I think our big role is to try for Two Worlds which are, uh, they are interconnected but the discussions have always happened separately, right now? uh aa ical, right the international Civil Aviation organization it is very specialized in discussing the rules applicable to aviation and this discussion on the other side of decarbonization I’m talking about a discussion of energy transition so it’s a right so we’re having an energy discussion within ical within the organization within the environmental committee so we have a very large participation in ical in all panels including Environmental Protection and now our role is to try to bring other players from academia and that’s why this seminar is It’s so important for us in the energy industry academia to take part in these energy discussions that are taking place within ical so that we can reconcile those Challenges that I said are the challenges we have, right ? sustainable aviation fuels are able to make the decarbonization metrics fair, right, that we can, uh, ensure that all the feed stocks, right, the raw materials are considered based on objective criteria, uh, try to also bring the reality of Brazil’s and South American countries’ environmental realities to the calculation of life cycles. In short, it’s a discussion, as I said, that permeates the aviation sector, it also brings the discussion brings topics and brings experts from the energy sector. So today our big challenge is this, right? How we ‘re trying to contribute is trying to bring in people, oo, some experts who are not used to it, right, traditionally, no, no, they don’t discuss in the ical to try to bring and bring our and our perspectives so that we can get international regulations that will be issued by ical that meet our market, right, that meet the characteristics of the Brazilian market and the South American countries, so for try to summarize this dance, I think these are these two big points, right ? it is being discussed, the rules are being discussed in the ical, right in the Civil Aviation organization, it is international, so our challenge is to try to bring people from the energy sector to help us in this discussion that is happening in that aviation area. Thank you very much Thank question finally then to Andrew Andrew is very good to have you here for your Defense Perspective and considering your Experience with the raf strategic planning and Rad back to net zero one And and bearing in mind that This is also aimed at 10 years before the official goals you know this is a net zero by 2040 rather than 2050 strategy um Could you share an overview of the Main initiatives that the raf has been implementing the Highlights the Main ongoing challenges uh particularly considering uh how how it relates to the need to retain operational effectiveness while still reducing emissions yeah Cheers Dunk just to Echo everyone else Thank you very much for inviting me to participate I think it’s a really interesting debate around the different Regional aspects of this an un likee my colleagues I’ll be wishing everyone Good afternoon than Good morning from here in the uk but um um I think the first thing I’d like to just address as Part of that probably is the the aspect around the 2040 goal as opposed to 2050 I think that’s really important How I elaborated on the rest of The Question so the uk Ministry of Defense more broadly has kind of set out a policy of as Being a Fast follower to our respective civil sector and trying and our goal There is to contribute to the uk government legal requirement to Become net zer by 2050 so some people can quite rightly Ask why then is Royal Air Force set itself this goal What is already a very hard task to try and do that 10 years sooner and some people quite inspirational some people think that’s quite a distraction from What Defense Is there to do in terms of providing National Security but Who works in H Space I actually find a very practical measure of what it has done is it’s brought it into the consciousness as everyone’s Minds today and it means that We’re able to sit around the table with a lot of our civilian colleagues and help influence the debate influence Where the technology and research policy is focused and We’re not kind of coming late to the party in 10 years time when this is kind of them brought into the horizons of where defenses C and spending kind of timeline start to kick in um so I’ll make no Bones about it 2040 is very much an aspirational goal I really like draw out on that that Word um and We’re still unclear as to whether It’s even Possible what it does do is it makes it significantly more likely that we will be able to comply with the government legal requirement to be n by 2050 um so then coming on to kind of the next Part of The Question and what have we been doing about it so A Year ago we relas something Called the uk Defense aviation net zero strategy one and that was a document that was developed in partnership with our strategic supply chain a lot of Industry Partners a lot of academic institutions that we Partner with and then also broad Cross government collaboration and essentially that set out to do two things it Wanted to articulate the risks that climate change And sustainability and the associated society and Energy Transitions posed to defenses aviation sector and then also What are the then levers or measures that we have to mitigate those risks and capitalizing on the opportunities um so II won’t dwell too much on the Risk because it wasn’t the Focus Of The Question but I think It’s important but that very much looked at Six areas and it was things such as the Physical ris that climate change Might pose so Higher Air temperatures and How that Might Impact the propulsive efficiency of our aircraft which Might limit How much they can lift or one the Endurance of those platforms um You’ve Got some the Energy transition ris whereas in Order to Deploy into operational theaters We’re absolutely dependent on Global aviation Supply Chains and Global Airport infrastructure so We need to maintain that interoperability with civil Global Airport infrastructure Part of that and is also parts on like our Own legitimacy and the role that we play as we intervene in Humanitarian aid and disaster recovery or maybe climate security operations We need to be showing to be doing our part and also how we attract Young aspiring talented individuals Into The organization Who Are taking this seriously one so they were the kind of risks that we explored but more important for This conversation I think is what are those things that we doing how we putting this into practice one and we have five areas explore Now so and these very much tried to align with the uk government Jet zero strategy as we are a Jet zero council member ourselves and try and Create that synergy between the art transport and the Ministry of Defense so the first one is we Call it rethinking capability provision This is military Jon for doing things and What we’ve seen is as we see Acceleration of technology in of external sectors How is that having an Impact on the way Defense Goes about its Business and a really good example we Use To an explain this where we absolutely have to maintain or improve Upon our operational effectiveness but we use technology To Do It differently is things such as synthetic Training so we’ve seen the improvements in the Gaming sector through augmented reality and virtual reality haps web-based platform from a f to fth gen fastjet platform we’ve seen that a Huge proportion Of The Flying can be shifted into synthetic environment and the driver for that isn’t climate change sustainability um It’s actually to reduce costs and make sure we Preserve those Critical Hours on those really High cost assets It’s to improve Safety outcomes because there’s less Risk of operating in a synthetic environment than in a Live cockpit and It’s also around operational Security as we get more Modern platforms as we see our adversaries develop their own increasing capability they’re able to Observe the Training that we undertake and as we test sensors and those kind of things if We’re able to do that in a Cyber secure environment it means that we a Protect that in a way that means our adversaries can’t then learn When We need to It into effect just so happens that all of that shift though leads to better sustainability credentials for Defense We need to be able to measure that benefit and Champion it Where where Possible um so so that’s the first One it’s all about how we um reduce the amount of lifetime Hours we maybe need to undertake but we cannot in Any Way compromise on operational effectiveness we will always need to have Life Flying to deliver operational Effects and we’ll need to give that Training to live crews but It’s how we do it in the best way using technology at that time the second One That I’ll touch on is how we improve operational efficiency um and this is all about delivering those operational effects but maybe conserving the amount of fuel that we need to use and that has various benefits efficiencies can be Taken as productivity benefits or efficiencies and whichever way you look at it so by better efficiency you can increase the Range Of platforms You can increase the payload they can Carry um or you can shrink your supply chain um and the vulnerability you have there to keep those assets live and operating which also then leads to cost benefits it also happens to improve your sustainability credentials again one and the ways in which we do this good through can Key areas is Fleet renewal so New platforms we ‘ve seen for again from fourth to fifth generation fastjet platform it was an external piece of work that calculated about a 30 to 50% reduction in in-life operational Energy use and between those platforms which is quite consistent What civilian see as well a noting we ‘ve just in the uk Gone through a Huge recapitalization of our platforms a lot of aircraft won’t Change in the next two decades so we also had we retrofit sustainable measures or fuel efficiency measures to those aircraft be that weight reduction or aerodynamic improvements or propulsive efficiencies um the US Air Force have done some really great work in this Space on the1 Where things like changing the orientation of windscreen wiper Blades had a 1% fuel efficiency saved across the platform It’s Thinking Outside The Box Like That and the third area for efficiency is the operational side and there a program championed by a Lady in Royal Air Force Called squadron Leader mckinnon Who’s some great work and fuel efficiencies and emissions reductions which is looking at all the things about How operators Preserve fuel more effectively be that the way they operate around the airfield the flight planning routes they choose to use or maybe the reserve carriage fuel they take with them and is absolutely necessary to take as much as we were before one that Part of it is also Key those two That I’ve just spoken about are all about how you shrink the amount of fuel you need but clearly You’re Going to need some fuel in Order to operate and deliver military Effects so it then comes in What of the options to Swap the remaining fuel that’s in the system so it’s not based on Fossil fuel feed stocks and the big One which we’ve heard loads on today then is sustainable aviation fuel which ths about a Third of our decarbonization pathway one with strategy one and the Air Force has done loads of work in this Space Across three areas again so the first one is understanding the technical requirements of emerging fuels we have people Who commit to International Bodies um such as the asm body that qualifies Future fuel specs um we’ve partnered with uk um synthetic fuel producers to understand How that Might improve supply chain Security and resilience for Energy for aviation in the future we’ve then done some work around how we operationalize use of saf um so people May have seen in the news that the Royal Air Force in Back in late um 22 did 100 % satlight on a Voyager platform which is one of our Airbus a330 derivatives um and that was all about how he understood getting the fuel from a supplier bring it into our fuel infrastructure on airbase and then delivering that to an aircraft and then flying with it and understand some of the technical barriers that would allow US to do that on a more routine basis and we got a Huge amount of learning from that but it also had a Huge external effect to show people the seriousness With which the Royal Air Force was taking it and then The Final bit on the side is to Do With The disruption Within the commercial acquisition Space which I think is quite often not talked about as much Airlines are very much changing the way in which they look for fuel in Order to try and Get The saf Industry off the ground noting that at the Minute investment is one of the key blockers to be able to scale up Supply and to get those Plants built and starting to produce the amounts that we need one so the air for is in the last two Financial Years 9 Million lit of Blend which is approx of the Royal Air Force fuel which We’re using on a routine basis now just understand that routine use of it Within the B of routine acquisition process and what destion we need and a final technical Lever is around what we Call zer propul I know that Jose briefly talked about this but It’s looking at Battery Electric hydrogen fuel Cell and hydrogen combus Technologies Now Because of the immaturity of those Technologies and the kind of performance requirements of a lot of defense capabilities These a Tiny part in our kind of transition out to a 2040 timeline but there are some niche capability areas where they can work and we’ve been working on Project M which is going to produce two experimental aircraft that explores these Technologies in the bid to inform Future requirements for some of our small Training aircraft a really good example we’ve also done a lot in the kind of smaller UAV Systems as well electrification and those those projects doing now it strat ABS fundamental foundational Pill To Build on knowledge of that as we see civil aace using more of these Technologies in the 20607 2080 kind of timel so that’s quite Key and the last One which I’ll very quickly tch time is we recognize in the strategy that There is not a way to get to Absolute Zero Within the Def aviation sector by 2040 or 2050 there Will residual emissions Within and that’s we that Might be because unlike civil aerospace We’re not going to be able to use commercial levers such as Paid for offsets to get rid of those residual emissions how we maybe use our States to effectively capitalize on that larg state that we have to May be innovative about how we can maybe use some biological means to offset those residual emissions The Big thing that is around wrapped all of this I talk about as well is the importance of non CO2 emissions so things such as contrails This is quite a Complex Topic and I won’t go loads of detail on it but that is a significant contributor to the environmental Impact of aviation and something else that We’re doing a lot of a studies and trials with Partners as well because of the links to platform Security about Being able to see contrs and visually Observe aircraft so I think that’s important to mention that as well but I’ll pause there I recognize that’s a Huge amount of content but Thank you very much and look forward to the discussion Andre thank you I mean I think that was that it was hugely informative for audience particularly to get that of Clear understanding of how ral Air forces Thinking About these problems so in summary What we’ ve heard so far really is is is is you know we we’ve heard that Brazil has opportunities and aspirations to be a producer of biofuels uh and sustainable aviation fuels in particular uh we’ve heard about some Of The Challenge and the opportunities of actually pursuing uh this sort of Market role as well as I think the the mixed requirements of the aviation sector of the future so We’re moving from a sector that’s Being very much focused on One kind of fuel to one that’s going to have to R on diverse sources of Energy depending on which airframe is involved we’ve heard about the need to bring Together expertise and also promote collaboration with International Forums and finally the ways in which Defense Might be looking at sustainable aviation fuel as an opportunity to improve operational effectiveness in the future I’m going to use ch position now just to take the opportunity to pose a question for the panel and we we’ll work around the panel in the same same way starting with Amanda Andrew began to touch on This a little bit in his remarks but Given the theme of the webinar It’s quite striking this idea I think that uh Defense could be a Fast follower um the one that is going to essentially be watching Where the civilian markets go and follow in behind but I I’m kind of left wondering could Defense do more could Defense be more proactive and so my question to the panel is in terms of driving uh an aviation sector transition What role do you see for Defense and do you think Defense could be doing more to Help drive this transition so Amanda I’ll begin with you please you’re muted at the moment thank you for the question dunc it’s the defense right There’s a crucial role there I believe in other countries also here in development technology eh of support for the country’s development also in this sense, right, and so they can make it easier to move forward, right, to study, as was said by Andre, to study several everything that can be done to be able to mitigate or improve this energy efficiency, as was said, logistics, walking walking studies with fewer planes, etc., this is also done by Civil Aviation, right? And you know that in the case of aviation, right? we have ionization, and it’s a little more difficult because electrification is a little further away. Not that it’s impossible, but that It’s actually further away because it demands a volume of fuel in a volume of energy, it’s high density, right? In current engines, not to mention that, of course, we have planes being used for more than 20 years, right? At least in Brazil, up to 25 years? planes are used, so it would take 25 years to use this technology that is available today, right, and of planes. So this fleet does not change as quickly as car fleets compared to urban mobility, right, so, defense has a huge role in carrying out these tests. of use, as you rightly said, But there is a difficulty in Defense, which was even a study of a project of ours here at GZ, is that saf is produced, let’s say, in a refinery, where the production cost is worth the volume. In other words, you mitigate the cost of production if you have a large volume, right, you know that if you have a small biorefinery it is not so effectively Economical, in other words, the value of this fuel is only a much higher value and defense is an issue in which it needs to use fuels in points that are extreme, let’s say , there is not very easy access and one of the project studies of one of the projects, I think it was with Germany, we were studying exactly a way of producing saf, right intensified in a volume small in remote areas exactly to be able to see the Defense issue, right ? So these advances that the defense makes help a lot, right ? efficiency Including the exchange for new planes that consume less, right? The planes, I think it was Boeing’s mistake and Airbus says that the new planes compared to 20 years ago mitigate 15% of the use of fuel or whether it reduces, right, 15%, but they are 15% more economical, so all actions help. But it is also known from studies that it is not necessary to develop saf production. Because without it, it is impossible for us to reach the target set by Corcia, right, that we are going to have net zero, right, of having no emissions, right, the increase in emissions with the increase in aviation is in 2030 and in 2050 we are reducing this, taking as a baseline, 2000 25, and the emissions from 2005, so that’s how we we really need to develop these technologies and mitigate their value so that they really are made available as soon as possible to be used. So we do have to work in this direction and I think that the role of defense is an extremely important in this sense, perfect dunc , thank you very much Absolutely, right? Without a doubt, no defense plays a fundamental role, right, in the development of these alternative fuels, right ? they are more different fuels in their composition, right, and what I see, for example, is that perhaps the defense could help us a lot, perhaps by doing some tests, mainly because to date we have only been able to add up to 50% to Jet A1, right, of the saf produced by from renewable raw materials, one of the main causes is that jet A1 is generally composed of four main products, linear, branched, naphthenic and aromatic paraffins, and most saf production technologies today can only produce linear and branched, minimizing linear paraffins through their freezing point. So I think that defense could provide Perhaps a lot of incentives for technologies using renewable raw materials such as lignin, for example, to obtain nafit and aromatics and that we can gradually increase the saf concentration in Jet A1 I think this point is a very important point, right, so that we can greatly reduce the consumption of kerosene-based fuels. So I think this increase, right? And also, of course, we we have to work hard but really in technological development so that we can reduce capex, right, and the opex of these production processes so that we also have a fuel that is competitive with current kerosene. So I think that the role there is to defend the Air Force is fundamental to encourage this type of technological development, thank you very much, please , the history of aviation is intrinsically linked to defense, right, all the major international aircraft manufacturers have specific sectors for military aviation, anyway, so Well, I believe that for the defense sector it can function as an incubator for new sustainable energy technologies for aviation, as happens, right, in the production of aircraft, right, several aircraft models were first developed for military aviation and then Adapt pro pro for Civil Aviation and the same thing I imagine I’m not as much of an expert in energy as our other interlocutors here on this panel but the defense sector is testing new technologies working as an incubator right, an incubator and then passing on technologies that will work better or worse and so on. And then in the second moment, to gain scale, it goes to the civil sector, right to the Civil Aviation sector, so I see that defense Yes, it has always had this role not only in Aviation but in other sectors, you know, of promoting new technologies, putting these new technologies to operate under regime And then these technologies are absorbed by the market and then with the technological model Already well established, scale is gained and costs are reduced, and then things end up being added to the market, and to the civil market, and finally, to, so I see that the defense sector has already demonstrated, especially here in Brazil, in Europe. In the United States, there is a very, very important role for the development of aircraft and, of course, I put this role of incubation, this role of developing new technologies, testing, really innovation, right, research and development, it comes into a regime. then with a lower production cost you gain ass on scale And then you can popularize these new technologies here in this case we are talking about renewable energy technologies, right about energy that decarbonizes the Civil Aviation sector Thank you very much for that Tiago Andrew just before I come to you umago We’re well aware that you know you’ve Taken time out your afternoon to be with us today and that you have a pressing Schedule and we need to leave soon so if you don’t mind we have one question from the audience I’d just like to post to you uh before we continue with this discussion about the Def seor so you’ve addressed the challenges of balancing the So in fact we have the incentives and regulatory mechanisms for the industry, right? short-term measures, short-medium and long-term objectives that have already been addressed in some way here, right in the various statements, right, short-term, carbon neutral growth, and then the color is the compensation system for companies, this for the international market, right, carbon neutral growth, carbon from 2020 depending on the countries Brazil applies in 2027 starts to apply in 2027 And then companies can either or or emit less through saf or compensate through the carbon credit market Medium term the goal there of reduction through saf by 5% in International Aviation and the bill that Professor Amanda mentioned, right, 10% through saf in 2037 and zero emissions in 2050, all these regulatory mechanisms they have the objective, right they are they have the objective of decarbonizing aviation Now the cost reduction instruments will depend greatly on the level of finance that the country can provide for this new industry so we have the BNDS, our exin Bank, right, our development bank with some special credit lines that take into account sustainability criteria just to stimulate and provide funding for this new industry that is being born in saf right of sustainable fuel and we also have the international scope under development in the international Civil Aviation organization, the finvest Hub right aa ical has made itself available as a HUB in which investors will come together with financial institutions and countries that will require saf to comply all these goals that I mentioned and trying to create financeability, especially for developing countries, Brazil has acted very proactively in the country to try to boost the consolidation of finvest HUB, we still believe that unfortunately for these countries involvement, the amount of financing available is still insufficient to boost this entire saf nascent industry, so we need to raise awareness, bring this problem to the discussion within ical so that it stimulates these financiers to come with funding to enable the saf production the development of the saf industry in all countries so that it scales and costs Thank you so much for these Insight And and just to as behalf of all of Us today How much we appreciate You taking time out of your Schedule to be here with us and you have others I thank you and I leave a hug to everyone and I reiterate that it was a pleasure to be able to participate in such an important discussion for us if it is a priority to anak the Brazilian government and and please count on us for all as well as technical discussions and webinars we want to be present at all a hug to all and good end Thank you so much tiag OK so Andrew thank you for your Patience um but if we could return then to this question uh about whether Defense needs to play a more proactive role in driving the uh the aviation sector Energy transition I’d be grateful for your thoughts on that yeah absolutely II always have to trad a fine Line here of Giving the views of Andrew versus the organization I guess I’m here to represent but um II think when I sit on these discussions around sath um if if you when I hear the challenges that we’ve got to overcome sustainable aviation fuel currently makes up. 2% of the Global aviation Market and we need to get it up to Where It’s a taking up a significant proportion greater than 50% at least by the time We’re hitting that 2050 timeline a and in terms of the technology development I actually don ‘t see people Crying out For Us to be a Huge player in that Side of it ii see the amount of government funding that’s Gone into things like the aerospace technology institute in the uk I see the investment coming from the Private sector Side through companies like rolls-royce Airbus Boeing and the technology and unlocking that I think it’s happening and you see the work that’s being done to qualify some of these fuels through the International Body stm that seems to be developing where I actually see the big challenge here actually developing sufficient production capacity and the uk government has done a Huge amount of work here to try and unlock how we get that increases that production capacity with I think they’ve Given around 165 Million Grant funding to a Number of different Plants in the uk um they’ ve created a clearing house in One of our universities to try and expedite that clearance process for the technology but actually when I lot of these discussions it’s all about the amount of Invest Private seor investment that’s needed to get those ease off the Ground and actually even although all of these saf Plants have got a like greater than 100% of their production capacity sold as potential off to Airlines or different aviation fuel users that doesn’t give Enough backing for investors to still give their money so where I actually think Defense can be useful is because We’re essentially the government’s airline if you want to kind of reduct it make it reductive as that one we are a publicly funded exploiter of sustainable aviation Fuel and we although we only occupy around 2% of the uk aviation fuel Market Any if you look at historic Energy Transitions the difficult Part of moving to Any New Energy medium is getting from 0% to the Market to 5% so if you look at defens as 50% of the H Part of the problem all of a Sudden you completely flip that on its head in terms of How Defense can be used to provide that investor Confidence as a kind of guaranteed off taker of that fuel to then start to unlock that increasing production capacity so I actually think It’s more In That economic how you use Def as guaranteed buyer of this product that can actually be how you unlock the increasing production capacity asos to Defense having to spread very fite R expenditure that we have In These pressing kind of Public fiscal times where we already got to look at things like hypersonics and ai and kind of biological of Defense and things Like That it’s so ring go to cover I don’t that’s the place where we IMP In That economic sense of Being a guaranteed offer of that fuel that investors would see as like a good reason to want to then Invest In These Plants to get them off the ground yeah I think that’s a really interesting response Andre thank you and I think making that distinction in particular between Defense as a buyer and Defense as a kind of research and innovation S And and The Need To kind of disentangle some of those things to clearly understand Where where and How Defense can contribute to this transition um we have a cle coming in but just before we turn to those I was interested as well and whiz panel again so begin begin with you Amanda this question is for everyone it’s about trying to understand to what exent this is a that needs to be driven At The National level as well as To The International level and what I mean by that is you do you Brazil to work in jointly developing some of these alternative Energy sources and so What’s that kind of ro for International collaboration and Andrew specifically to you I wonder Again In terms of collaboration uh between Defense sector um not entirely sure if This is um in your in your domain but I was Thinking About the Global Air Force coalition for example and the kind of role that that Might have to play so if you had some thoughts on that amand If I turn to you first eh dcan eh esse eh essa question let’s say like this between countries this development I I think today it’s very global, mainly the development of international patent technologies, this interaction for development today is due to our form of communication today, it’s fast, right? We’re all here at the webinar talking, in different countries, and access to documents, this is happening quickly, thing that we really need to pay attention to is because although we have to be fruitful, it is important, this sharing of knowledge technology, even decision-making between countries, unifications of definitions of concepts, of this understanding, even because aviation it is Global, we go between countries and others, so we cannot have different standard specifications for this , right, so this is a precaution Exactly because we are dealing with aviation, we travel between countries and not in a single country But in fact for to produce to encourage this, we need to have a regionalized look because we have different biomasses and different realities in each place and that we need, let’s say, produce this energy in a very centralized way and use it locally because because This transport of energy generates costs as well as a real increase in data , let’s say the inefficiency of CO2 friendliness, right ? as I reinforce that all this sharing of information and this exchange of experiences is extremely beneficial and can greatly help development and we can reach results much faster but we do have different things, let’s say, to deal with in environments and eh different where perhaps, let’s say, in a country like ours, which is Brazil, it has a continental size, we have discrepancies within the country itself, we have very different regions and different climates with different productions, so I don’t even have a single solution for Brazil, right from production to development, what would be the most viable route, etc. It’s not unique, right? I’m in a state in the north of the country, right? Rio Grande do Norte Natal, very close to Europe, is closer to you, at the extreme, but we have a very large potential for wind energy, right, we are a huge wind energy producing state, so you can have an idea of we are already self-sufficient, 98% of our energy used today is already produced in the state and wind energy, despite the electrical grid in Brazil being connected, but we are here, so if you talk about electric cars, here would be an excellent place because our energy It is electrical and wind power, so it would not be using electrical energy from a fossil source but from a renewable source, this will not happen in other states in the country, we have some states that have great potential for wind power, we also have one here. great potential for solar, right ? of alcohol is not a significant production, whether it is a sugar cane plantation, alcohol based on sugar cane, but we do not have biomass production, the south of the country and the center-west have a large production of biomass and that would perhaps be the place to a refa process then you say in relation to saf in our case what would it be, right? the production would be a production in which electrical energy was used, which are the efios, as in the example of a fich tropis, which is a more expensive technology, but we have electrical energy. cheaper renewable energy, so in some places we could benefit from this other route, right? To be able to obtain the saf that would be wires, okay? So in this case, we need to have a regionalized look, but in exchange for knowledge of the development of this thing, We must and must share this knowledge and experiences, etc. for faster development for us to come up with faster solutions for decarbonization, especially the two most expensive decarbonizations, which are aviation and sea Thank youens answer and I think your points about geographical diversity very well Taken and I think it speaks to reinforces what we were saying earlier shift sleer clo Duca I certainly think that all national and international cooperation work is fundamental so that we can enhance development, right? technological our research the work of innovation this is fundamental this is me we are doing here at sená and Cimatec a lot of work of national and also international cooperation precisely because alone we are not going we are not going anywhere we are going to take a long time very slowly, without a doubt, Brazil is a source of biomass, right, in general, as Amanda commented, heterogeneous, very large, right? We have biofuels, fats, we have vegetable fats, animals, sugar cane, ethanol, okay, and palm trees, right ? it competes a little with corn, it also competes with food, but not agave, we are even working with agave, right, for the production of first generation and second generation alcohol and I think that One of the very big solutions that we have is also to work with the The waste we have is more difficult, more expensive, but it is very important that we also work with the waste, eh, I say waste, for example, from Palm Oil itself, from palm oil itself, we are working, for example, with bunches without fruits to polish cellulose and then very large fermentables, there are technologies because not all yeasts eat pentose, which is also produced, so it’s very complex, but I think we have to come together to try to do this work. Another point that I think is also important is that we will also work in such a way that the conventional planes that we have today that are still flying, there are planes that are up to 25 years old that are flying today, they have certain orings that do not allow the aromatics in nafit to be low. I think we also have to work in this area so that we do not, eh, no, no, not allow the concentration of aromatic is very low, below 10% because they start to shrink, and there are technical leakage problems within the equipment itself. So I think that’s another point that we have to work on, okay, I think that’s the point so that we can can increase Even the concentration the concentration of the concentration of saf within the Jet A1 So I think that the work with International cooperation because each of the areas, each of the research and development institutions They have heterogeneous forces and so that if we can join these forces, all of us ALC will achieve our goals much faster, okay, so I think this is the point that is very important, okay, okay, dunka if we don’t interoperate Across regions inevitably encourage some Bad behavior to occur so if we aren’t working on a collective group of nations You can see scenario Where behavior such as tanking Where people fly to airfields where you can get cheaper Fossil fuel based fuels or they’ll take more from airports Where that’s not Being maybe as mandated or incentivized to do so and they kind of undermine the kind of efforts on a more Regional level if we don’t start working Together so I think It’s Absolut however the development of each reg enery Security that enery feed will be we did a Huge Pie of work looking at the differences between the United States America and they very much adopted a more Biel kind of approach Du to the agricultural surplus that they very Lucky to have whereas if you look at the mandates out uk I’m not taking that lot greater Land Competition so in the uk we have much greater competition Need for food Security and for the housing Crisis and how we develop more housing so to go like Take a of that Land to then start making feed stocks for aviation fuel would not be like politically or environmentally or economically sensible so if you look at the uk government approach to this That’s why they [ __ ] the he which limits the amount of biofuels that are able to be sold in the uk aviation Market and also [ __ ] a subet Liquid which draws Upon those renewable feed stocks and incentiv that capacity be increased to deliver that so those Regional kind of strategies for How they meet those tets is really important for their Own energy Security needs but I think looking from a Defense point of view D very briefly mention there a Body that was established a few years ago Called the Global Air Force climate change collaboration and that’s Now got I think around 50 Air forces participating that group and looking at how we approach this energetic sustainability climate change challenge collectively and if you think conversation we talked about Being a Fast follower to respective civil sector well the other Part of that problem is not moving so Fast that you maybe move in a different Direction or move too quickly for some of the allies We fundamentally need to operate with when we go and Deploy on operations so we’ve got to make sure that we the Air Force has openly said it wants to adopt a real Global leadership position with this It’s how we bring some allies along on that Journey with us and make them real where we can May Make of this activity Happen quicker in partnership rather than as individuals um so One Piece of work that we’ve been looking at through An academic Um collaboration that we have in Place with the WH la University of Cambridge um is trying to start to map um they have a Huge Model for Energy feed stocks for aviation fuel globally and how we start to [ __ ] a metric of Energy Security against that specifically ring pretending the allies that we Tend to operate with and It’s starting to understand and how we maybe use that to feed into things like War Gaming for Energy Security when We’re considering kind of Future a geopolitical Conflict how we start to consider that an Energy Security aspect and how we would then use our air assets based on the feed stock availability that we have Across allies is quite Key and I actually think that diversification Across feed stocks Will also be Key to kind of increasing that Security itself so having a Mix of people Who take more biofuel approaches and some that take more synthetic Power to Liquid approaches I think that diversification also enhances collectively our Energy Security Cross allies thank you for that Andrew and also for that Brief introduction to the to the Global Air Force collaboration which I think is a really interesting initiative a just while We’re one on the theme of uh the uk which you mentioned of course um we have a specific question for you Andrew from our audience uh which is the media reported earlier this year uh of the uk saf mandate to be scrutinized by parliament How likely do you think it is to be approved and if it does What would be the next steps for Airlines airports and other Market players yeah great question um so I think the one thing that has [ __ ] a significant question mark over This is obviously the news that came out yesterday about the prospect of a General election in the uk so obviously This was the current government on their agenda of business however what i would say Is this Piece of legislation I’m I’m led to Believe has strong Cross government support um so I do believe it Might not be a priority for Any incoming government but I do think it would still continue to be pushed forward um so I do think It’s highly likely that It Will Come into effect I just think there’s a question mark Over the timelines of that until we know will it be come through in this government’s Business or will it be have to be [ __ ] into the kind of shuffle of What the priorities are going to be for Any incoming government one but What would be the next steps at Airlines airports and market play so essentially the mandate set out very clear objectives How much of the UK’s aviation fuel mix has to come from sustainable feed stocks and that’s set I think It’s 2% by 2025 10% by 2030 I think It’s 22% by 2040 and the obligation for that is very much placed on the supplier so Airlines airports um they actually in reality have to do very Little other than consider the Financial implication is going to be by having to pay for this fuel because that fuel is going to come in currently cleared blends so itl be as just said It’s 22% by 2040 that’s not going to exceed the 50% Blend Cap that we currently have cleared through the qualifying body one so they don’t have to change Any infrastructure we don’t have to change Any aircraft that Will just be A seamless Drop In in those quantities um Where the kind of I Guess the real um work comes is on those suppliers How they then secure the appropriate Supply in Order to meet that because there are It’s that carot and Stick that I think loving went into earlier the mandate means that There is a buy obligation so if they do not meet the appropriate amount of credits of saf to meet those kind of different targets then they will have to pay a Penalty for Any fuel that they’ve sold that hasn’t t met that that command need so It’s really then starting to stimulate that supply chain because it is going to be a very demand at that Point Where people are going to have to buy it um so I actually think it’s a very Smart Piece of a legislation that’s been passed For Those reasons and It’s had Huge like Gone through two consultation consultation processes for all of those different stakeholders with everybody very supportive and actually wanting to see it move through as Fast as Possible so they can start to kind of consider those economic impacts that it Might have one so I hope that answers a question but Happy for Any comebacks if a Part of it not specifically focused on no I think that’s really helpful Andre thank you Jose If I turn to you I have two questions for you from our audience the first is do you think that Pressure from the aviation sector customers could be an Active driving Force influencing sustainability strategy to some extent and secondly uh does there have any agreement collaboration NGO with the military answering the first question Duncan Without a doubt, society has a fundamental role right, in impulsion, right, today we see that society in general, she sees, she reads the labels, she sees what type of food she is eating, people demand better quality food, they demand air of better quality they require an environmental of better quality, more more appropriate and society is becoming more and more aware of this energy transition. Because we have no way out, right? The level of CO2 in the atmosphere today, or two equivalents, is reaching more than 422 ppms, right? We are having a very large volume and society is increasingly feeling these climate changes that have been occurring in the last 20 years or in the last 30 years that we have been experiencing, so society is sensitized and it effectively plays a fundamental role in boosting This change, this change is a very difficult change, it is a very big technological challenge, right? Even though we have a very large range of biomasses here, all of all types, but it is a technological development that needs to be carried out so that it is competitive and that in the end it does not fall on the shoulder of society, in other words, this additional cost does not fall on the shoulder of society, so it is a role that we have and we have to do it anyway regarding the second question that we have, we have, yes, we We are finalizing some agreements, including with defense, so that we can, in the future, do joint work on technological development for the production of saf, and we are working on that, and still in a very incipient way, we have a center for skills that are working on decarbonization and low-carbon hydrogen, which also work on alternative fuels, we have work there and we are also training people with a high level of Master’s degree in this area so that we can then try to overcome all the technological difficulties that we have in relation to the replacement of Kerosene G A1 in the medium and long term Ok dun I think I answered your question true Yes thank you thank you very mindful the time lastel deriv from One of our audience members um and again we start with Amanda then Jose And and finally Andrew and The Question is uh should do you think that this theme The Time is right for this theme Now to be addressed in Brazilian Defense documents so this audience member Notes that the latest versions of of the Defense White Paper I think published in May does Not address The role of Defense and decarbonized Any um so to our Brazilian panel I would say do you think it’s time and and to Andrew um I wonder if you Might just briefly reflect on whether you think that this has done much of a difference in the uk context Because Of course Over the last five years What we’ve seen is a lot of documents published by the Ministry of Defense on decarbonization on Defense Energy strategies and so on we begin with Amanda Duca aqui aqui In Brazil, let’s say this and this issue of renewables, right? It’s a point in our daily lives, so we already use it a lot. It’s news, it’s a government agenda, right? of this decarbonization, so I’m going to confess here that I’m surprised that there is no Defense document that has come out about decarbonization, but maybe that’s the reason why defense, like us, already uses 50%. of our renewable liquid fuels, if we were to compare it with the rest of the world, right, we are making great progress, even I say this, when I speak in lectures, and you show our data compared to what we do, we have already done our paper , we have already done much more than everyone else , but we have the capacity to do much more, right? development is very, very big and the part where we are decarbonizing in Brazil, I say it is an expensive part because the cheap part, we have already made the switch from ethanol to gasoline, we have already done it, we have 85% of our cars are Flex, we already use direct ethanol, in a possibility of cars, that is, ethanol has a value similar to gasoline, biodiesel is already coming in at around 15%, it also has a similar price, the market has already managed to have one price similar to the competitive fossil fuel, so we for diesel have already done this stage, we have the entry of electric cars, right, and on the other hand, we have electrical energy that is mostly hydroelectric, such as wind, wind and solar, growing immensely, right? Where? I live, most of the houses today are putting in solar energy, in other words, each house practically becomes a power plant, so we are well advanced. And then the part of decarbonizing air and sea is a more expensive decarbonization because the exchange of this We’re not talking about the exchange, the value of the infrastructure is very high, right? To exchange for a newer, more efficient infrastructure, so we actually use a 25-year-old infrastructure, right? changing a fuel and this fuel has a characteristic it has to be Drop In that is it has to be the same characteristic as the fossil fuel, right for aviation S it has a specification rigidity and this means that a fuel is needed, let’s say So, with a more refined specification and, of course, a fuel that needs greater technology development and also a higher cost, so we are encouraging the decarbonization of a more expensive part and we are aware of this, right? We could do it immediately, it’s already been done. Even defense uses this. Defense uses these fuels that are already partially renewable in their tractors, trucks, etc., so we have a role today in society’s industry. I think it’s very strong in this sector. right, and maybe defense plays a role, not as a motivator in Brazil, but rather as a use of what you’re already seeing happen, not that it couldn’t be, right, just like in the United Kingdom, an incentive for seeking out these spaces, right, and producing documents and to influence this in a bigger way But in fact, as this in Brazil already has an advance I believe maybe she is not in that role in Brazil I what is ISO pass asis here happening You For Those like opportunity to talking Def is doing inz resp to Energy [Music] Oh without a doubt Without a doubt, I agree with Amanda, I think it is very important and if the defense, if our defense here, I say specifically in Brazil, would also in some way boost the development of saaf, it would be a factor. more than we would have , I think it’s very important that we have to walk together, society, everything, everything, we have to walk together, so it’s very important that we have, as I say, a help, a boost, right? a very great cooperation, including with defense, defense itself exists, there are very good specialized technicians, there are very competent research and development areas, right? I think it’s very important that all the work that society does is civil society has been carrying out this and all research and development institutions have been carrying it out in this sense, in fact, it’s the world, no, no, we’re all in this together, it’s a problem of global survival, right, so no, it doesn’t make sense, right, so it’s necessary for us to do it a global effort, right? a global effort so that we can overcome all our technical economic and financial difficulties in relation to this energy transition and the saf has a very important role in all of this, ok, so I think that defense can help us very very very very very thank you dunca thank you and Andre finally Any Any concluding thoughts from the uk Perspective yeah I guess What the one thing I would add I think It’s really interesting How It’s been discussed I would never like to I guess try and posit my thoughts on How It applies On A Country by Country basis but certainly when you’re trying to make the argument for why climate change is important there’s a whole range of audience you’re trying to engender Action from and for some people altris argument if It’s right thing to do by the planet by people that Side very easy to kind of Fer the action you need but For Those I guess less convinced It’s making that Connection to National Security and the Impact on your um Defense forces Goes a long way to when you make that Connection between climate change and We’re entering this period of great Energy Competition and you can guarantee that if the uk and advise that we operate don’t Get on Top of this sooner and realize the risks and opportunities that guante addresses Will do exactly that and be at a disadvantage compared to them when you join those dots between those two kind of different Worlds and they collide you can then start to really engender some really positive Action that comes from that one that has some real benefits to the planet and sustainability but also improves the operational effectiveness of Defense as a whole which is ultimately what We’re here to do is to Ensure The uk’s National Security and those two things people think they can pull you in two directions and actually they go a long way Together Hand in Hand and I think by articulating that Within some Key strategic documents Over the last five years we really have joined the dots on that which has helped US unlock some levels of activity which we’ve maybe not seen elsewhere I think there’s some great points to to end on there Andrew so Thank you very much for that um so we’ve reached the End of our time um so need to draw this All to a conclusion Now um very much Hope that uh everyone has enjoyed this webinar enjoyed the entire webinar series if you’ve seen some of the other meetings as well if you’ve missed Any of the previous webinars and would like to Check them out the series is available on the sovereignty and climate Center YouTube channel and the center’s web page you also find on there copies of the various reports from those webinars that have been published so far and indeed there will be a report published on the basis of this webinar as well um so please do check that out um and so finally All really left is Thank you so much Once Again to Amanda to Jose Luise to Tiago to Andrew for taking time out of your busy schedules to be with us today your insights Have been absolutely fascinating and I think what you’ve really done is contributing significantly to moving this discussion forward and I very much hope that our audience will be taking uh many of your messages Away with them today uh and thank you of course to our audience for taking the time to join US and to listen uh and to Engage with this series so whether It’s morning or afternoon where you are I will leave you by wishing you a very pleasant week