Adm. Rob Bauer heads the NATO Military Committee at a time the alliance has grown to 32 members, the war in Ukraine rages on and Europe’s security architecture has been tested in new ways. On Friday, June 7 at 11:00 a.m. ET, Bauer joins The Post’s David Ignatius to discuss the latest on the battlefield in Ukraine, the state of the alliance as it marks 75 years this year and the issues topping the NATO summit agenda in Washington next month.
Washington Post Live is the newsroom’s live journalism platform, featuring interviews with top-level government officials, business leaders, cultural influencers and emerging voices on the most pressing issues driving the news cycle nationally and across the globe. From one-on-one, newsmaker interviews to in-depth multi-segment programs, Washington Post Live brings The Post’s newsroom to life on stage. Subscribe to The Washington Post on YouTube: https://wapo.st/2QOdcqK
Follow us:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/washingtonpost
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/washingtonpost/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/washingtonpost/
e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e welcome to Washington Post Live I’m David ignacius a columnist for the post I’m pleased to be joined today by Admiral Rob Bower who is the military uh chair of the military Committee of NATO Admiral B thank you so much for joining us this morning good morning David so edil I want to uh go right to the drama that’s taking place even as we speak as President Biden uh delivers an address in Normandy uh let’s let’s look at what President Biden had to say yesterday when he was at the American cemetery that haunting scene where thousands of American Graves of the the soldiers who fought at D-Day are placed let’s let’s look at what President Biden said yesterday make no mistake the autocrats of the world are watching closely to see what happens in Ukraine to see if we let this illegal aggression go unchecked we cannot let that happen to surrender to bullies to bow down to dictators is simply Unthinkable so adal bar I want to ask what your message would be today to the millions of people who were watching President Biden who were thinking about the NATO alliance what would you as chair of the mil AR committee want to want to tell people I think President Biden is absolutely right in that it is unacceptable if we allow Russia to win in Ukraine it would have dramatic consequences not only for Ukraine but also for the rest of the world because that is the message the chilling message to autocratic states that might is right and that you can get away with it and I think that is that is something we should not let uh uh allow Putin to do and therefore we have to continue to support Ukraine with money with weapons with ammunition with training and uh and everything they need so and that is happening now for more than two years which is amazing in itself but we need to do more and we need to uh to to therefore ramp up our uh production capacity in in our part of the world to make sure those weapons and ammunition are going to be produced faster and bar what’s your assessment of the situation on the battlefield today Russia has been pounding uh Kar which is second largest city of Ukraine in the East near the Russian border has that uh offensive slowed and does Ukraine have the weapons in place it needs to be able to stop Russia for moving further west I think um the things Russia is doing they started to to uh to to be on the offensive again basically when the uh the support from the west from the 50 Nations that support Ukraine for more than two years now slowed down uh the big one was of course the 61 billion package from the US uh but in in in in in in other nations there was sort of a uh a downt as well in terms of the support so that sort of gave the Russians the idea that there was a window of opportunity and they started to attack the front again at several places if you look at the results uh it is actually not U impressive they have taken some Villages uh but it’s not strategic militarily at all in terms of uh the uh the the the the positions they now have uh the uh the attack from from the north from belgaro towards harke is actually not feasible with the number of troops that they have U and so again this is uh it’s all uh adding up to this uh to to to the picture that the Russians have not achieved any of the Strategic goals they they wanted to achieve until now the mighty Russian army has not been able to defeat the much smaller Ukrainian Armed Forces U it uh it is a war that we’re now at the 835th day of a three-day war and uh and Ukraine not only prevails but has been able to take back 50% of what the Russians originally took theyve been able to drive the the Russian Navy to the other side of Crimea with without a Navy as a result they have been able toh to start the export of grain again without a deal with Putin uh and so in uh in many many ways we’re talking about more than 350,000 Russian uh soldiers killed and wounded in this war so the Russians are not in a good place at all but of course it is extremely difficult for the ukrainians as well and therefore we have to continue to support them so that’s as positive and a count as as I’ve heard from a senior official about blunting this Russian offensive that that began several months ago let me ask about another thing that troubles analysts and that’s Russia’s systematic attacks on Ukrainian infrastructure in particular power uh we’re we’re just in early summer but the level of power is already sharply diminished many apartment buildings in ke can’t keep the lights on parts of the day and people are are deeply worried about what happens when winter comes what’s your assessment uh of the infrastructure power and energy situation in in Ukraine and is there anything that NATO and its member countries can do now so that the winter for ukrainians won’t be a nightmare I mean if you look uh I mean traditionally uh in war there’s always the intent to break the will of the people and that has been done by attacking the infrastructure or electricity gas water in the beginning of the war then for a while last winter actually they didn’t that was fascinating in itself and then they basically attacked uh civilian homes they attacked the the the the the houses and apartments of people to break the will of the people so far the Russians have not been successful in Breaking the will because this is an existential fight for the ukrainians if the the Russians stop the war today and go home pck their gear and go home then the war is over if the ukrainians stop the war today they have lost their country so for them this is an existential fight they will continue they tell their president every month continue the fight despite all the The Killing despite the uh uh the construction of infrastructure despite the hardship as a result of indeed no electricity no water no heating uh and this this is not going to be the first winter the next one if uh where there’s a lot of hardship for the Ukrainian people so I’m not convinced that you that Putin will be able to to break the will of the Ukrainian people are extremely strong people when I visited them in March I was visiting KF in March spoke to the to the political leadership to the military leadership and uh I’m I’m deeply impressed by how uh strong that nation is how uh they are fighting for their existence and I’m the Russians don’t have a clue what they’re fighting for the the ukrainians do in terms of how we can support them I guess the The Continuous discussions between the 15 Nations that support Ukraine and Ukraine is uh is is is an important venue to uh to to to hear from the ukrainians how we can help them best it’s not only weapons and ammunition but it’s as you say also uh um in terms of infrastructure equipment uh technology uh that supports the electricity Grid or whatever that is being hit by by the Russians so that is an a continuous uh uh dialogue and uh and I’m I’m convinced that will do everything possible but that it is difficult is is that is absolutely clear let’s talk a moment about escalation President Biden uh just last month joined uh the recommendation uh of NATO Secretary General stoltenberg and other European leaders in uh authorizing Ukraine to use Us weapons to strike inside Russia uh this was described as uh limited strikes in terms of range make the case for our listeners if you would uh as to why us and NATO weapons should be attacking Russia uh directly and and how do you evaluate the risks in making that decision well I would turn it around militarily it is the best thing to do if you are attacked from uh Nation uh that is illegally attacking you and they start a war and you are defending yourself you can do two things you can wait until the missiles reach you uh and then try to uh to kill the arrows or you kill the Archer and the Archer is in many ways in Russia uh there’s aircraft taking off from airfields in Russia there’s uh the logistic support for the fight in in Ukraine from the Russians which is oil and gas which is logistics which is transportation which is the production of weapons which is uh all the things you need in a war they are being uh produced and being brought from Russia so it is the logic thing to do militarily and it is possible within the law of armed conflict to do that because the Russians started this war and the ukrainians are defending themselves so it is militarily logic it is within the law possible to do it uh and uh the only discussion for a while between some Nations that gave longer range weapon systems to Ukraine uh and Ukraine has been whether they would allow Ukraine to do that and I’m I’m happy for Ukraine that that permission is there and and do you think Admiral that there should be limits on the range of those weapons how far into Russia do you think they should strike or do you think that should be left to the ukrainians again there is uh in uh in the in in the law on armed conflicts there’s no uh there’s no limits in terms of the range so militarily again if the target is deeper into Russia then uh militarily you want to to strike that Target if uh uh for example the uh the the aircraft that take off from an airc from from an Airfield deeper into Russia what we’ve seen with the uh increasing range uh that the ukrainians have been given uh to strike was that the Russians had to uh to push back to bring back their logistic nodes uh and that of course makes it more difficult for the Russians to be successful in the fight if you have to bring back your Logistics from let’s say 10 15 20 kilom to 50 100 kilometers that will uh make it more cumbersome for the Russians to bring in the logistics and that helps in the fight so I think that is the thing you want to do uh and if the Russians have to be uh uh if you if you push back the Russians deeper into Russia that will make the fight more difficult for them so I and and again this discussion on escalation uh we’ve heard many times uh that Putin used or other officials use the word red lines when it came to the tanks when it came to the himars when it came to the attam and every time we sort of waited a little bit longer to think about it and then we then we gave it uh and the and the result was actually that it wasn’t a red line but the actual result was that the Russians were able to strengthen their defensive Works in Ukraine so uh in many ways we have allowed uh Putin to work on his defense uh based on him saying it was a red line and every time we gave the weapon and we used it against him he’s not stupid so he understands it’s it’s it’s within the law and it is militarily logic then it wasn’t a red line so we have to be careful not to uh to jump time and time again to this idea that everything is a a red line that everything is an escalation because uh uh uh first and foremost Putin is a is is a has been lying about basically everything he uh he recently said he would never attack a NATO country he said to the reporters uh if you think that you are stupid well he uh he lied about attacking Ukraine so um I think the time is over that we should allow Putin to uh to to self-d deter our us because that’s basically what has happened many many times so in Practical terms Admiral as you know far better than than most this issue comes down to Putin’s threat specifically by him by former president MV and others that that Russia’s prepared to use tactical nuclear weapons to deal with what it sees as escalation by Ukraine and its NATO supporters should NATO ignore those threats should it prepare what it would do uh in the event that Russia did use tactical nuclear weapons and in that regard do you think that if Russia was so reckless as to use tactical nuclear weapons a NATO response to that would be appropriate David let me say one more thing about the the the the question before that so if a nation still wants to limit anything with regard to the weapons they give to Ukraine that is their right I mean it is a it is a sovereign state that gives away weapons and if they have concerns with regard to the risks uh then uh then then it is their right to discuss that with Ukraine so I’m not questioning that but you if you ask me as a military man what is militarily logic and what is possible within in the the law of armed conflict then that was my answer so so I want to be I want to be clear on that with regard to nuclear weapons uh with regard to nuclear weapons um there’s been a lot of rhetoric and uh especially from MeTV he’s I think he’s getting Crazier by the day uh and uh uh but that doesn’t make it less dangerous when he says things like we’re going to attack U whatever Nation with nuclear weapons it’s not even he’s not even only talking about Ukraine but he’s even talking about NATO Nations um the quote unquote good news is that uh so far uh we haven’t seen anything with regard to the uh to the to the to the nuclear posture of the Russian armed forces that has forced us to change ours so for now uh two and a half years almost into the war it is rhetoric it is d dous rhetoric it is dangerous because it sort of becomes normal to talk about nuclear weapons like this and and nuclear war should never be fought and will never be won so um it will change uh things dramatically if the Russians use it I’m not going to talk about what NATO is going to do uh because part of deterrence is that it becomes that it is not clear necessarily what NATO is going to do so uh and it’s not not useful to talk talk about what NATO or is or isn’t going to do uh that is that is for the Russians to be seen so fair enough ask you about one more escalation issue president macron of France has said that he is ready now to begin training uh I believe it’s 4,000 Ukrainian troops to send Mirage Jets but he’s also talked about the possibility of sending French uh troops into UK Ukraine as military advisors do you think that’s wise policy is that one that other NATO countries might also consider let me start uh by saying David that NATO does not have troops under command of NATO in Ukraine and there is no plans to do so so that’s very important to to start with second if a nation uh would like to do something like that send troops to Ukraine it is not only a issue for that nation and Ukraine it is an it is a it is a discussion to be had in the alliance as well because the consequences of an attack on those troops uh if it comes to it is most likely something that NATO is going to get involved in so in that sense uh I think it is extremely important before anything like that uh would happen is that there is a discussion amongst political leaders in the alliance but for now uh there there is there is no troops under NATO command and there is no plans to do so so I want to turn to the NATO Summit that’s coming next month here in Washington DC um following an important Summit a year ago at at vilnus um the question remains will be on the table I’m I’m sure in Washington whether there should be some uh alteration of the timetable or conditions for eventual Ukrainian membership in NATO what’s your view about how this issue should be addressed at this year’s NATO Summit I think it is clear that there will not be a decision on an accession of of Ukraine uh entering NATO because uh first and foremost uh Ukraine is at War if we would allow Ukraine in the alliance now given Article 5 NATO would be at war with Russia so that is not something we uh we think is wise and therefore it’s not going to happen and Ukraine uh knows that so I think that is not the discussion uh the discussion is not going to be a timeline discussion it’s going to be the it’s going to be about the conditions and uh um at the same time I think it is important for Ukraine uh and as Secret Secretary General Stenberg was clear on that it’s not going to be a question on whether Ukraine is going to be a member it’s it’s about when so I understand the discussion on the timeline but at the same time given the fact that I know every wants short Wars everybody wants peace but in the end it there is a war now and it is a war that has taken uh now already more than two years and the end of that war is not within within uh I I don’t see a very quick end of this war so uh we don’t know the timelines what is important though is that we uh show Ukraine that they will become closer to Nato more and more and that’s why we’re now working on this Mission uh which is going to look at four things one is the coordination of all the training second is the coordination of all the things Ukraine needs to make sure that it uh that that that we Talk Amongst the allies and find uh the things that Ukraine needs and then third is to get it to Ukraine through logistic notes the fourth one is a new one and that is uh that we talk about how the Ukrainian Armed Forces will look like after the war for the future armed forces of Ukraine the first three things is things that are being done by the seu in in visb and the coordination is now being done by the Ukraine defense contact group organized by the US with 50 Nations at the moment but it is a it is an important signal if uh those efforts uh 50 Nations through us helping Ukraine is going to be coordinated through NATO that is an important step towards closer cooperation between Ukraine and NATO bringing Ukraine closer to Nato that is one second there is going to be a discussion on a more solid continuous stream of finances for Ukraine and not an sort of um discussion on a monthly basis is there more money is there more money if we can make sure that Ukraine knows there is a certain budget per year then that helps them greatly in organizing themselves uh through the war and and after the war and then the third element is there is this new joint analysis and Training Center in Poland that is going to be set up to make sure that we learn the right lessons from the war in Ukraine uh together with Ukraine and and and with with NATO so I think those three elements are important signals for Ukraine to make uh the people in Ukraine understand they will become closer and closer to Nato without an immediate uh entry into NATO at the Washington Summit that’s a helpful summary of what’s what’s ahead here at the at the at the summit next month so we ask our audience for their questions and I want to read one from Patrick in Illinois who who asks other than Ukraine where is NATO most concerned there could be another attack on a non-nato country uh what’s what’s your thought we look at Russian uh statements about about Georgia other activities where do you see potential danger well the issue is that people focus on the Eastern flank and on the Nations where I mean you the Russians are in Georgia so I mean they are not thinking about attacking Georgia they are in Georgia uh they are in mova um it’s not about attacking mdova they are in mdova since the early 90s so the Russians are in a number of nations and and and of course these nations where they already are are probably a little bit more vulnerable to further uh Invasion than than other nations uh so that is one second uh then there is the discussion on uh uh on what the next Target might be whether it is in NATO or outside NATO but the Russians are basically everywhere they are in space they are in cyber they are in Africa where they use the Africa core the former Vagner group to destabilize Nations uh they are in the uh in the Arctic they are in the Atlantic Ocean so they are everywhere trying to create strategic dilemmas for the alliance and if there is others other opponents uh and so that is something we will be vigilant on we have to make sure that we keep on looking 360 degrees uh in all domains space cyber land maritime air to make sure that we understand what they’re doing and on top of that there is the disinformation and misinformation and the hybrid actions the Russians uh uh lost a lot of spies because a lot of the uh the Allied Nations kicked out uh a lot of so-called uh uh diplomats uh that were that were spies at the beginning of the full-fledged invasion in in Ukraine and so they were uh they were uh hampered for a longer time in their activities in our part of the world and they now revert to different types of operation and that is U for example hiring uh local people uh for money to uh to cause trouble to set fire to a building to put a bomb somewhere or things like that sabotage actions in general and then the story of course is that uh you know if you if you use a local person in a nation then you can sort of make the story that that person was against its own nation and is now helping Russia etc etc which is nonsense of course they just pay criminals for actions they uh they hope will uh will destabilize our part of of of the world so Admiral a question we’ve had from many viewers uh you won’t be surprised to hear is what effect Donald Trump’s election in November would have on NATO he’s has a history of of sharp criticism of of NATO he’s said that if NATO members don’t pay up uh Russia should go ahead and attack them as as you and your colleagues prepare for a future where we’re all uncertain about the outcome what plans are you making and what worries do you have about that possible change in US leadership I I think the the the core of the critique of President Trump was that Nations did not invest enough in their own armed forces and therefore in their ability to defend themselves which is in line with article three of the treaty article three says every nation has to be able to defend itself and we have a lot of nations in the alliance have neglected that for for many many decades so I think that critique was right it is correct that we had to repair that that Nations had to do more to invest in their armed forces and being able to defend themselves and I think that is happening now so at the moment we see that more and more nations are doing that we see that more and more nations are going to live up to the new agreement the agreement in vus is now that at least 2% of the GDP is going to be spent on the fence and the idea is now we believe that in Washington the secret General can can uh can tell the world that about 2third of the alliance now Allied Nations is is uh is at that level of 2% or above and that is a huge increase uh if you compare it to the time when President Trump was the president so I think that is the core of the critique that the US uh was paying too much of the bill for too long understood that that that was his critique what I’m really asking is if uh future president Trump took steps that uh seem to undermine NATO would the alliance push back other words does the alliance care deeply enough about its continuation and and strength abolutely that it would push back against absolutely and the SE gen Secretary General stoltenberg has pushed back on on on the on the words when uh uh uh uh president Trump was talking about uh uh you know Nations that do not pay up uh uh should be attacked by by Russia it’s dangerous um to talk about it like that and it is not only dangerous for the Nations he was talking about but it is also dangerous for US soldiers that are now serving around the alliance and in the world if somebody else thinks that you can attack a nation and NATO will not take any measures so that is in itself dangerous and not helpful at all but it’s not as simple that the US president alone can uh can withdraw from NATO it’s a treaty and he will require uh the house the Congress and the Senate to actually do that but of course talking about it that way is not helpful at all so Admiral Rob bow that’s a just a extraordinary tour of all of the issues that are facing NATO on a day when we’re thinking especially about NATO with this D-Day anniversary I want to thank you for joining us on Washington Post Live it’s been a pleasure David so please join us for other programming if you want to see what we’ve got coming up uh register subscribe to Washington Post and our our programming and and our wonderful news content please go to Washington post.com uh washpost live.com and see what we’ve got uh thank you for joining us today hope to see you again soon e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e