MPs are preparing to debate a bill that would ban UK safari hunters bringing body parts of animals they shoot
The Private Member’s Ballot Bill was introduced by Labour MP John Spellar.
More: https://trib.al/ccYkmQ8
#hunting #commons #politics
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Order order point of order mad speaker of order point of order Jonathan gullis thank you mad speaker I beg to move that this house does sit in private the question is that the the house sit in private as many as are of that opinion say I the contrary no
No I think the nose have it the nose have it the clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day hunting trophies import prohibition Bill second reading John spell thank you thank you madam dep Deputy speaker and often in debates that have had a long Genesis and
Been considered many times in the house uh there’s that hacked phrase that everything that needs needs to have been said has been said but not everyone has said it one can’t even use that now because everyone has has said what they need to say at many uh many many many
Times times over that is not true of course therefore in this in this case not least because of the bill moved very ably and pioneered very ably by The Honorable member for Crawley uh in the uh in the last session of of Parliament where there was a clear and overwhelming
View of this house that this legislation should go forward and we all know that those was that was subject to um Extended delays and one was not wish to cast aspirations but one could almost suggest delaying tactics in the uh in in in in in the other in the other house
And eventually of course time ran out and I have to say um Madam Deputy speaker that in this regard even if in no other um I I do actually welcome the postponement of the general election until the until the Autumn which I hope will then give us ad more than adequate
Time not only for this bill to to make it stages in this house but also to ensure that the majority in the other place are not frustrated by a few of those are the who who take a different view on this bill and um in some ways it is slightly reminiscent what’s happening
Down there um of the debate on the House of Lords in the early part of the last century when um they divided very much between the hedges and the ditchers of those who accepted that some reform was necessary and therefore they were going to hedge their bets and allow reform to take place
And those that those who are going to die in the ditch and I hope very much that the uh frankly that the hedges as a Triumph in the house in the other house as well in order that this a very important matter not just to us but also
To the public makes progress I give way to The Honorable right honorable lady right honorable gentleman for giving way um it was about this time a year ago a report stage we reached this uh somewhat a compromised consensus to have a bill that left this place to go to the Lords
I’m right in thinking that the right honorable gentleman has reintroduced that ex exact same bill where this house reached consensus last year and also it technically doesn’t stop hunting however for those um animals protected by SES it’s just simply stops the import of any of those animals into this
Country the right honorable lady for those comments and also thank her for the work that she undertook as the Secretary of State in support of this uh of of this legislation and also uh to draw attention to other members of the house that because we wish to speed this
Uh the pro uh the progress of this legislation I would hope that colleagues would not be uh prone to making long speeches on this is on this issue indeed possibly not even medium or short speeches on this on this issue but but to stress that subject to subject to the
Chair I intend tend to be very generous with my U uh taking of interventions because I think that honorable and right honorable members want to ensure that the very strong feelings of their constituents which uh every time this comes up are made very clear to us are
Actually expressed in this house so they know that Parliament is listening and Parliament is undertaking their CES I will just finish with the com my comments to the uh right remember for somewhere in suffk um uh before I um before before I uh take the intervention from my honorable friend from be
Bebington because she is absolutely right in the last parliament in committee there were there were concessions and discussions and a consensus brought about which expressed very solidly that’s why I stressed that this was the overwhelming view the overwhelming message from this house to the other house it is very regrettable
That they chose to ignore that I understand that the uh the other house has a role in in revising legislation and particularly when there are very deep divisions um in this house that is not the case with this particular provision of legislation it is absolutely clear that the overwhelming
Majority and indeed the overwhelming majority of our constituents in many polls 86% or so I’ll come back to that a bit later are in support of this legislation and The Honorable member for Crawley skillfully put that together um and which shows the bipartisan nature of this and therefore that’s why this
Measure should go through today but also why it should be speeded through its processes in both houses of Parliament now giveway to my honorable friend just imag grateful for uh him giving way I’ll just point out that the bebington element of the Elman for constituency
Left about 40 years ago I I know he’s been here a very long time so it pro it probably was correct when when he first entered this place um uh I was actually going to to intervene and make the point that you that he has just made that actually there is overwhelming public
Support for this certainly I’ve had a number of constituents contact me to express their support and and as he has said surveys show time and again huge public demand for this so I think I would just ask him does he agree with me that it is important that we make sure
Today we get this through uh as swiftly as possible and that the other play are able to do as much as they can as quickly as they can can I thank mod friend I make no apologies for being regularly reelected to this place over a over over over a number of decades and
I’m sure that he speaks then very effectively for his constituents in elmir Port and I suspect actually the residents in bedington probably hold similar view similar similar similar views as well and that’s also important because what it shows sometimes we have issues here before this house which maybe reflect views from certain parts
Of the country and there are often arguments that maybe the arguments reflect views of those in the uh in the Metropolis or the inner Metropolis the Metropolitan Elite this is an issue that runs across parties across classes across regions this is a universal view across the across the country that they
Want to what they they they want this country to have no part in this vile trade I I find particular it makes a really important Point um like many honorable members I’ve received hundreds of emails from my constituents in batle and Spen who are aall at the vile trade
Of trophy hunting would you agree with me that the bill will not only prevent the importation of hunting trophies to the UK but it will also send a really powerful message to countries around the world that hunting and killing endangered animals for trophies is always unacceptable and much more must
Be done to pre prevent this atrocious act wherever it is can I thank my honorable friend for for that for that contribution and also for the work that I know she’s been undertaking on this on on on on on this issue quite apart from this from this particular bill but of
Course she’s absolutely right and other countries have already shown the way Australia France Belgium others are and I think there’s a couple of others they have already shown the way by Banning the by Banning the trade in in hunting hunting trophies and I hope that that
Will then what we decide here will start to send a message to other countries that this is a intern International movement and look we always realize Society evolves and opinions evolve in this country we have in Birmingham the bull ring we no longer torment Bulls in in a public
Arena with dogs or bear or bear baiting or fighting or dog we have moved on from that and this is what this is the message from this we need to move on from this not least of course because of the decline in species and um so of the
Arguments and I’ll touch on this again uh relate very much to Africa but I would remind colleagues I pay tribute for example to the campaign by The Daily Express on this that other regions of the world are involved as well um polar bears in Canada for ex for for example
And this I think again demonstrates that uh the public really do not want these magnificent creatures to just be slaughtered not only for a bizar for of pleasure but to decorate people’s houses they don’t understand I give away to my honorable friend I thank my honorable friend for giving way and I congratulate
Him on bringing this bill forward but isn’t it the case that this legislation is actually uh supported by many of those campaigners in countries like Africa who love their animals and recognize um that there’s much more to be gained and much more it’s much more profitable to keep those animals alive
Rather than to allow this barbaric uh practice yeah yeah yeah yeah I yeah thank my honorable friend and uh she’s clearly speaking on behalf of her constituents in not in not even expressing those those very strong views and in a number of programs yesterday I I I pointed out that actually for the
Long-term sustainable future of tourism in these in in these countries actually it is much better to have tourists who are shooting animals with cameras rather than with rifles rather with rifles and and and crossbows looking towards a future of sustainable species and therefore people being able to enjoy not just through
Historic videos from David atra but actually to to to enjoy going there themselves that of course gives rise to a great in a great industry and a long-term industry in the country give right to The Honorable gentlemen very gentle I agree with him he’s saying he
Pay tribute as well as to my Sussex colleague for having persevered with us for so long we shouldn’t be here this should have gone through so can I make him a practical offer cuz I’ve been struck by the number of emails I’ve had from my constituents about how important
It is practical offer to members of the House of Lords who are minded to try and sabotage this bill again and I speak as chairman of the all party parliamentary group for photography we will have a special category in the exhibition this year for wildlife photos so they can
Show How brave and manly they are by getting up close with cameras rather than guns is that a deal well I’m not sure their their knees would take it but uh that’s a uh a f a further matter I absolutely take the uh the point that The Honorable gentleman
Makes and I think that there that is right that expanding the scope of people to be able to to be able to show their skill in photography but also to show these magnificent creatures in their natur in their natural natural environment that and and they will have
A record of that that’s the record that they should have not some grizzly trophy on the on on the wall so I fully I fully un understand that but he’s absolutely right and and I’m very pleased he did raise the question about colleagues being here today because I realize where
We are in the Electoral cycle I realize that uh we have uh elections everywhere across the uh across England England and Wales in this uh in in in May and therefore many colleagues would we want to be out campaigning I thank colleagues who are here here here to here today and
Uh that’s why I I hope that they will be able to participate in order to put the views of uh of their constituents and I hope the constituents understand the effort that has to be made in order to be here sometimes on a Friday with constituency PR I give right to the
Right honorable lady I’m all to The Honorable member for giving way I think it was the the the really sort of distressing case of the killing of cesil the lion that erted many people to what’s happening and I want to put on record that I doo have many many
Constituents in chipping Barnet who want this bill to go through which is why I’m here today to support it and I thank the right honorable lady for uh for for coming in today particularly as there’s even more important elections uh taking place in uh in her part in her part of the
Country and um ones on which she and I might take a slightly different View but we are united on uh on on this on this issue today and it is it is very important that once again we stress the cross party support for uh for this important measure I earlier highlighted
The role of the um uh honorable member for Crawley but also I’d like to pay tribute to many of those who played a part in keeping this campaign going over many years yeah I think of uh my old friend Bob blizard Bard previous member
For for for Wy um a a comrade there in the labor government whips office um back in the in the days of the be before the 2010 election a great friend but also a great Enthusiast Enthusiast for jazz but also very much for this cause and he encouraged me after he’d uh gone
From Parliament to take up this issue and his involvement in the campaign to ban trophy trophy hunting was enormously important along with the current director Eduardo Gonzales who is sadly not well but I hope will be cheered by the progress of this bill later on lat
Later on today and along with as a number of celebrities most notably sir ranol fines who has been a stward in the in in the campaign Dr Jane Evans and Peter Egan whose name appear appears on the petition the instigator of the petition that I will be referencing a
Bit later in the uh in the campaign but I also want to play thank you in the other house lord mancroft said um what the government are doing today is passing socialist legislation which is an odd thing for the conservative government to be doing would you agree with me it isn’t
Socialist legislation it isn’t conservative legislation it isn’t liberal Democrat legislation Scottish national party legislation plom legislation it’s Humane and compassion well we are a broad church and uh if the members on the government benches uh wish to uh wish wish to join the cause of socialism I but he is uh
But he is absolutely right there are issues that um there are issues that sometimes divide us on uh on non on nonpolitical grounds where people from different different parties um line line line up in different in in different camps many of those are subjects of free
Votes this is an issue that unites us and one and also unites us with the British people it should have been done ages ago should have been should should have been sort s sorted out it’s really it’s really a shame that we’re having to
Be here today I don’t say I I I don’t in any way resent it but I do because I think it’s the the right thing to be doing but it should should already be on the statute should of course thank my friend for for giving way and also pay
Tribute to my um honorable friend from cwy um today feels a little bit like deja vu we are back again but what I think this does is send a message to our friends in the Lords that we won’t give up on this um it’s the right thing to do
It’s uh an absolute abor act to go to another country to kill an endangered species to stick their heads on one’s wall just seems like something out of a totally different century and I think the uh the fact that we’re here back again fighting for the right cause and
Standing on the shoulders of the Giants of those who’ve gone before on this is is an important message to both the House of Lords but also to the country honorable member for expressing that so so well and particularly the point he made that this is something from a previous century and it’s time
It’s time has passed Society life moves on society move moves on and in the way that I described him it’s interesting none of the commentators came back to me in the interviews I was doing I said how can you defend someone who wants to travel a distance to go and shoot a
Giraffe to stand on its corpse and then to bring Parts back to this country nobody seems to be able to answer that qu that question I’m not saying it was ever right right what I’m saying is it is absolutely clear now that the public in this country are certain they don’t
Want any part of it Harry mcarthy I think my right honorable friend makes a really valid point because there have been some arguments put in favor of trophy hunting that say that it lends itself you know to supporting conservation in the countries which seems to me an entirely
Spurious argument we’ve just seen some really promising figures about tiger numbers and there’s now 5 574 in the world which is actually tiny there should be many many thousands more but that shows that conservation efforts can pay off if we if we focus on those species and what this is really about
It’s not about conservation as the r member said it is about shooting anal animals taking pictur themselves parading around their corpses and then cutting their heads off to take home and it’s an AB burant act I absolutely agree my uh my honorable friend has been campaigning on this not just in Bristol
But uh here in Parliament for many years again from the days when we were working the in in in in the Whip’s office and makes a very strong point the argument about will we’re killing these animals in order to save them um is the you know
We creating a desert and called it peace and I really do not buy uh buy into that and equally importantly nor do nor do the BR British public I give way to The Honorable FR honorable has been in the past when we’ve debated this there has been this argument about
This is performing a role of culling for protective species we’ve always been able to negate that argument because there are times when there’s a a strategy for calling certain species but that’s done on a basis of scientific fact rather than inhumane delight at the killing of the animals friend makes a very important
Point um that uh if you have vastly excessed numbers for example in certain parts of this country there are problems with deer numbers and that is having an impact on um on on Woodland and the ATT and the and the Very proper campaigns of the government in order to re uh to
Rewood the uh reforest uh the country and therefore but that of course involves in many cases having professional Hunters uh do doing this having people for example firing crossbows and animals lingering for several days um and cesil the LI was as quoted and that of course was the case
That really caught the attention the imagination of the British public and that’s what focused them on on on on this and made very clear that they did not want this to uh did not want this to uh to to continue he’s absolutely right but there is another factor to this and
This is an issue that’s taking place particularly for example with elephants that the uh that the the elephants that are being taken out are of course the really big the the the leaders of the of the tribe this therefore has a significant effect on the gene pool and
There is already seems to be some evidence that elephants with smaller tusks are surviving and therefore in the world in the world of natural selection changes are taking place on the individual on the actual individual appearance but also because although people uh some some of the hunters don’t
Seem to accept this animals live in social structure some of course are uh some of course are solitary but many other animals live in social structures you take out and we saw this for example with the death of cesil the L but we also see this very much with elephants
Where this completely disrupts the social structure and and also the coherence and cohesion of herds of herds of elephants but this applies to to other other creatures as well so both in terms of Gene selection but also in in in terms of the of the development and
Maintenance of of the group species this actually works to its detriment I give way to my friend I’m grateful to friend I wholeheartedly support his bill but the point he’s just been making it’s in the title of the bill what these people are after are trophies and they are not
Going to select the weakest in the herd or weakest among Sur Pride they are going to go for the one that look most magnificent on their wall or wherever they want to display it and therefore they are taking out the strongest and weakening the gene pool and having exactly the opposite effects on
Conservation and that’s another reason why we need to send this strong message and support my honorable friends bill can I thank him for uh for for that for that contribution and he’s absolutely absolutely right the impact on the species as a whole the negative impact has to be uh has to be considered
As well especially as was mentioned previously by our colleague from Bristol right The Honorable member for Bristol because of the uh of of of the the the way in which um we are we are we are seeing real uh reduction in some species so we’re getting below the critical mass
Necessary in order to sustain a species to have the necess Neary genetic variation and maintain a healthy a healthy species as well can I just make a quick bit of progress and then of course I will because I mentioned one of the campaigning organizations and if I car
If I take interventions before I mention the others they might think I’m leaving them out but I do want to pay tribute to the many campaigns that have been maintaining interest in this issue over the years bringing us to the culmination I hope today and those are particularly
Humane Society International lion a for pores B born free um all of whom have played a prominent role in the contacting members and campaigning but also the Coalition against Trophy and canned hunting and that’s action for primates aw animal Defenders International Animal Aid animal Interfaith Alliance Catholic concern for
Animals the conserva again showing the bipartisan nature of this the conservative Animal Welfare Foundation international wildli bond labor Animal Welfare Society one kind people for nature and peace protect African lions Quaker concerns for Animals the rspca voice for lons World animal protection Wildlife Conservation Foundation Zimbabwe elephant foundation
And if I’ve missed anybody out they can text me with my included in the wind up but they but these have these have worked together very successfully to highlight this issue and we pay tribute to to them I give away to theor member for giving me and on that
Very point I uh totally agree with them I’m supporting this bill because I stand with many of my own fer constituents who have written to me on this issue and you mentioned the many of the NGS so I’ve been heavily involved with for PA UK who have provided did so much useful
Information to me on this subject over a long while as we all know this is a nonpartisan issue and peace from all corners of the house have spoken at Great length passionately and totally on their incomprehensible nature of this brutal sport so enough talking the time
Is to make this actually happen and does he agree with me that killing animals for sport is just not an acceptable practice well he makes that point very strongly and stresses once again the all party for this uh for this for this measure and that was also clear in the I
Will give away to the friend I’m grateful to my right honorable friend for for giving way and uh congratulate him on bringing this bill forward I fully support it and I’ll be voting for it today he he outlined a very impressive uh list of organizations there uh I don’t think anybody’s quite
Mentioned that apparently nine out of 10 of the British public also support this and I think that’s something that the the House of Lords need to take note of I’ve just been looking through uh the list of emails I’ve had had on this subject from right across my
Constituency from Charlton from dsy from berish from withing from all kinds of different demographic groups from all different kinds of areas around the country the British public are absolutely United in wanting this trade bound aren’t they yeah yeah can I thank him from uh for that point and also for
Highlighting the level of support of course that was reinforced by the government themselves in January in their response to the petition uh uh in at by Mr Peter Eagan and this was their response the uh the government made a we will continue to deliver our Manifesto commitment to ban the import of hunting
Trophies from endangered animals which has overwhelming support from MPS and the public we recognize they said that this is an issue that the public feel very strongly about and over 85% of our of responses to our consultation support Ed further action in the previous parliamentary session the government fully supported the
Hunting trophies Bill during its Passage through Parliament the bill passed the House of Commons in March 2023 with strong support from MPS did not progress through the committee stage in the Lords we will continue working to deliver this important Manifesto commitment and I hope the minister will be able to uh
Back that up further um in her contribution later later on this morning and that was reinforced also in a letter to the right honor s to The Honorable member for Crawley who um convened a letter from a number of members from across the house where again the
Minister at the end of January once again said that there is a considerable debate the government supported the bill they share the disappointment that it didn’t pass pass the pass the commment it’s absolutely clear that whatever our other divisions we are united in in in in support of of this
Now there is one particular aspect that I also that I also want to mention and and and highlight and we’ve talked a lot about hunting in a way um in you know in in in the world but there is also the even more deplorable uh part uh business of so-called canned hunting where
Especially uh where animals especially breed especially lions are they bled in enclosure to be shot by depraved individuals who want a trophy I pay particular tribute um again someone with whom I might disagree on other issues to Lord Ashcroft who um has spent a considerable amount of time campaigning
But also instigating Research into this appalling into this appalling trade and I hope the uh the bill will help to reduce its attraction one firm involved in this Dreadful trade advertised your Hunt is never complete until you receive your animals at home for you to uh re REM reminisce and
Recall your experience for the rest of your life do we really want to be associated with people who take that sort who who take that that that sort of attitude I’ve uh taken an amount of time and a a number of interventions um we
Could go on a lot further in a lot more detail but I recognize that the house will want to make progress and I recognize that some colleagues will want to make what I hope will be brief contributions of course is he going to take us through the Clauses of this bill
And particularly refer to Clause four which was incorporated in the bill as a result of the acceptance of one of my amendments when this bill was last debated clause for as it now stands has not yet been explained and I’m be interested to know whether the rise honorable gentleman supports it and how
He sees it going to work in practice can I thank uh the right honorable gentleman who in other context as on the British American parliamentary group uh where we’re joint officers I consider a par a parliamentary friend but I also thank him for highlighting the fact this bill was amended by was
Amended during its passage in order to take account of various views it was carried without descent in this in this house and forwarded down there I thank him very much for highlighting that that that that aspect and that’s why precisely it should be voted on again
And sent back down to the other house in order to be encapture incorporated into the laws of this land Madam speaker I beg to move question is the bill be now read a second time uh Henry Smith Madam Deputy speaker thank you very much for calling
Me early in this debate it is a very great privilege to follow the right honorable gentleman the member for Wally uh and I pay tribute to him and indeed so many other members across this house who have worked so hard not only uh in supporting my bill uh when it was uh
Before this house uh last year uh but also uh for their campaigning on the issue of ending the importation of the hunting trophies uh the body parts of endangered species into this country it has been uh a fantastic uh effort and indeed enjoys the support that we’ve
Heard uh so far of well over 4 fifths of the British public and indeed it was a Manifesto commitment that I stood on four and a half years ago and I understand has been reflected in the manifestos of many other parties represented in this house uh last March
Madame Deputy speaker the uh hunting trophies import prohibition bill that I brought through passed this elected chamber unanimously and uh as we’ve heard from my rore friend member for Christ Church we accepted compromise amendments to make make sure that it was reflective of as many views as possible when it went
Down to the other place uh quite frankly a very small minority of peers acted discourteously in the way uh that they sought to block this legislation and that is why uh we have had to bring it back and I’m grateful again uh to uh the rights honorable gentleman for doing so
I mentioned the widespread support uh for this legislation in this country but it’s also extremely popular in other parts of the world as well southern Africa has been mentioned I was in a number of Southern African countries uh last year uh where there was a clear
Desire again I would say by a majority of people to make sure uh that this legislation is enacted in this country and indeed uh as the right gentleman has said in other countries as well because it is not a natural practice of people in southern Africa this is a
Neocolonial uh import uh that uh was uh brought uh to uh that continent uh during uh the time of uh colonization uh and is not something that is uh Native and uh therefore uh it is something that I think enjoys widespread support the ending of this PR practice across the
World it’s also as the rights on gentleman said not unique to uh Africa there have been some claims that somehow this is some racist legislation this is telling uh countries around the world uh how to uh act and how to conduct their own hunting policy uh let’s just remind
Ourselves this is a piece of import legislation this is this legislation is saying that we in this country by a clear majority choose not to want to allow the importation of the body parts of endangered species slaughtered and killed by hunters into Great Britain that is the territorial extent of this
Bill that is what it is designed to do nevertheless I think it would send a very strong signal that these practices are uh deeply damaging to conservation as has eloquently uh been said uh by the right honorable gentleman the member for Wally in his opening remarks the damage
To the gene pool by taking out the uh most top um animals uh in say a pride of lions or a herd of elephants the big tuskers is something that is beginning to damage uh their ability uh to be able to survive let’s remind ourselves again what this legislation is about uh this
Legislation isn’t about banning hunting although I might have aiew on that this legislation is about protecting endangered species before it is too late give I will be delighted to give in his tour of Africa did he have the opportunity to meet president maizi of Botswana who has described Western
Interventions as a racist Onslaught he said it’s racism they talk as if we are the grass the elephants eat it start it startles me when people sit in the comfort of where they are and lecture us about the management of species they don’t have uh well no I haven’t uh met uh the
Current president of Botswana but I have met the previous president of Botswana president Karma on a number of occasions and he is passionate about ending trophy hunting because it is not uh typical African communities who uh benefit uh from uh trophy hunting uh it is The Big
Industry uh that supports it uh that benefits uh from that and therefore I think the Botswana example is a very good one because in a country like Botswana there is a huge a huge difference of opinion over whether trophy hunting should go ahead of course I’ll be delighted to give
Way gentlemen I pay tribute to him for the work that he’s done on on on this issue but isn’t the answer to his honorable friend that uh um this bill is actually dealing with the UK and the import of trophies to the UK and says nothing about
Bwan right absolutely correct um as I said earlier on this is a piece of imports legislation with the territorial extent of Great Britain it is what we choose to import into this country and the clear majority of the British people do not want the body parts of endangered
Species uh to be imported into this country because the majority of people uh care about uh those Majestic species uh and they want to see them uh continuing to exist uh for their children and their grandchildren and many generations to come the idea that killing an endangered species saves an
Endangered species is just absurd and should be called out for what it is I would be delighted to I I also uh again pay tribute to him for the work that he’s done on this and again uh reiterate that the fact we’re back here is rather absurd because this house agreed
Unanimously to take this through what I wanted to say though is that my constituents in Watford which are very far away from many of the countries that this is happening have absolute passion uh to end this uh practice but as has been stated this isn’t about the practices in those countries this is
About what we import into our country and if there’s anything that we need to do is to make sure that we um this AB burant Act of importing what is effectively dead carcasses of endangered animals for people to stick on their walls speaker I’m very grateful uh to my
Honorable friend the member for Watford he has been a stalwart in supporting me in this campaign uh and uh his what he says is absolutely right this is about again to remind ourselves what this piece of legislation does this is about what we choose to import or not into
This country uh and it extends uh to the importation of endangered species body parts hunted throughout the world um this would as uh the right honorable gentleman the member for Wally said extend to uh the prohibition to bring in the uh trophies hunted from polar bears
In uh Canada uh we don’t see people claiming that we’re being racists against the Canadians because we uh choose uh not to want uh to import endangered uh polar bears so we do need to remind ourselves what this legislation does Madame Deputy speaker uh I could speak uh with passion uh on
This principle for hours to come but I conscious that what we have here is parliamentary procedure and therefore I don’t want to detain the passage of this bill any further and I would call on honorable and rights honorable members across this house to send a very clear message from this elected house once
Again that we in this country she’s not to import the body parts of endangered species trophy hunted into Great Britain thank you uh Rosie dufield thank you madam speaker all of us here in this house are familiar with the term trophy hunting we’ve come to recognize the evil acts of
Those two harmless sounding words represent but for those watching who may be less familiar Animal Welfare organizations such as SPCA International Define it as the hunting of animals for sport not for food usually the animal is stuffed or a body part is kept for display they go on to say many Hunters
Claim that trophy hunting isn’t bad for animals they say they’re supporting animal conservation the opposite is true live animals support the population of their species the league against cruel Sports says we believe this multi-million pound industry is unjustifiable from an animal welfare welfare point of view but also for
Conservation as it is responsible for endangering species around the world and as for sport that word is usually reserved for activities that revolve around the more positive aspects of Life Fitness healthy competition teamwork friendship Personal Achievement Endeavor and endurance not a single one of those can be attributed to an
Activity where an individual who chooses to photograph themselves grinning triumphantly celebrating their killing of a once gentle and graceful giraffe whose lifeless body Now lies slumped and twisted at their feet pumped full of deadly bullets yeah my good friend the vet and Animal Welfare campaigner Dr Mark Abram obbe agrees he says anyone
With an ounce of compassion and kindness despairs at seeing these images of cowardly pathetic Trophy Hunters grinning over their still war kill exploited animals used as pathetic props to maintain even Elevate an online self-image of superiority without any shred of guilt or conscience he goes on to describe those taking part in these
Killings as having a tragic lack of empathy and the highest form of narcissism and that to be complicit in this most extreme callous form of animal cruelty plus then to harvest the body parts and ship them back home to the UK couldn’t be a clearer indicator of violent antisocial
Behavior every member of this house will have had emails letters and meetings with constituents who love and value animals and who Lo those who exploit harm will kill them the kindness shown by so many British people who campaign on behalf of animal Charities who volunteer who make donations or
Fundraise and who share a love for our planet the incredible breathtaking Wildlife that we’re so fortunate to benefit from how dare a few wealthy individuals decide that they have the right to buy and cause the death of a lion a polar bear or an elephant alongside our constituents
There are those who use their Fame and public platforms to fight for the protection of animals those campaigners include frequent visitors to Parliament whose passion is infectious people like the wonderful Peter Egan friend to many in this place who for years has fought hard to raise awareness and keep a ban
On trophy trophy hunting Imports at the top of MP’s agendas Peter works with fantastic campaigner Eduardo Gonzalez who we’ve talked about earlier supported by many across this house including the member for Corley who has never given up fighting to protect animals during his time here as he steps down at the next
General election it is vital that we carry on his compassionate work and that is something I absolutely pledged to do to best of my ability no speech about Animal Welfare should leave out top animal Champion Ricky jaas he could spend his days polishing his many awards but instead he chooses to condemn trophy
Hunting it’s a shame that those who consider the murder of animals a hobby he supports the ban and call and has called it Humanity at its very worst the murder of animals for fun is also condemned by Chris Packham Bill b Joanna Lumley sanov fins MPS and activists
Across the political divide and those with no political affiliations whatsoever the legendary Jane goodle says trophy hunting is utterly cruel utterly unnecessary and utterly disastrous from a conservation perspective it inflicts pain and suffering on animals for no other reason than to boast of some ephemeral power
There is no sorry prowess can’t read my there’s no material human need met by it it’s a hobby pure and simple and a deeply gory and a deeply sorry I really can’t read my writing and a deeply wrong one at that so I urge colleagues to support this private members Bill
Sincerely thank the member for Wy for bringing it Forward today and Echo the words of the Humane Society there’s no excuse for trophy hunting so let’s get the band onil wig thank you madam Deputy speaker and uh for me the one thing that unites this house is that we all want to see
Conservation and to see it done successfully but this bill has always been about racism and neocolonialism and this bill is questioned by science and by African countries and if anybody no matter how much you think you love animals is thinking of writing or contacting me about trophy hunting I insist that you
Consider seriously what African Representatives have said about this bill and about people like yourselves if we compare the last 22 years 73 sites listed species of animal have been imported as hunting trophies in the same period of time the pet IND industry has traded in over
560 listed species so if you care about sies then perhaps this bill should include pets as well and I don’t believe anybody in this house intends to be racist but this bill crosses the line the namibian environment Minister pohamba chieta has written to our environment secretary denouncing the
Bill a regressive step towards Neo NE colonialism your bill implies that your judgments supersede our insights and expertise such unilateral actions made without consultation and collaboration with us challenges the sovereignty of Nations like Namibia we’ve talked about Botswana and I’m going to quote what president Massi says but it’s worth remembering that
Botswana had 50,000 elephants it now has 130 ,000 elephants the population increases year on year by about 5,000 elephants they issue trophy hunting licenses for 400 and those licenses have never all been taken up so when he describes intervention in African Wildlife as a racist Onslaught from the
I’m in the middle of the quote but I think the president will forgive me for allowing him to intervene you with me that this house is perfectly entitled to make decisions having considered all the facts not selective facts all the facts and then decid that whatever it is it does not
Want to have hunting trophies brought into this country doesn’t he agree with me we’re perfectly entitled to do that if I didn’t respect the house I wouldn’t have bothered turning up today so I don’t think that’s a a valid point I think the bit that we mustn’t do and
We must consider what how we would feel if Botswana or Namibia or Tanzania or Zambia or South Africa or Zimbabwe we’re legislating on what we do here because awkwardly for The Honorable gentleman we’re not Banning trophy hunting in the UK we’re targeting sites listed species
And we don’t seem to care that that can be up to 5,000 of them of which only a handful are actually relevant so I if I can continue uh this is a regressive step towards neoc colonialism whether he means it to be or not your bill implies that your judgment Su supersede are
Insights the people who actually look after these animals and such unilateral actions made without consultation challenges the sovereignty this is a racist Onslaught for people who sit in the comfort of where they are and lectur us about the management of species they don’t have and he wasn’t just speaking
For himself last November the times the Telegraph and the daily mail reported the the ordinary Africans share his view the paper quoted from a survey of 4,000 people in Botswana Malawi mosambi Namibia South Africa Tanzania Zambia and Zimbabwe who said the UK legislation was racist and neocolonial that’s what they’re saying
About us so whilst I respect the sovereignty of the house I wouldn’t like it if they said things like that about us and I’m astonished that he does so I’ll give way to him the times which I don’t read very often The Honorable Men said they rightly I the African Community leaders
He’s referred to and conservationists they rightly argue that it’s not for us in the west to decide that they should manage their wildlife and that is I why I cannot Endor this but I’m not telling them or demanding how they manage their Wildlife what I’m saying and I think
Many me members in this house are saying we don’t want those discuss in trophies in this country simple the African countries find it appalling that British politicians show no concern for African lives threatened by these animals they are furious with the virtue s signaling proposals which lack scientific credibility and again
And again and again they return with the facts and they are completely ignored by honorable members in this debate uh I will come on to what Oxford University said about his facts and figures um this week botswana’s Minister for environment and tourism along with the high commissioners of Namibia South
Africa Zambia and Botswana came to this house to represent their dissatisfaction with the bill this is significantly different Madame Deputy speaker from when my honorable friend the member for Crawley brought the bill forward there was no push back from African countries then now we’re seeing significant uh uh unhappiness from these countries about
This bill deer ministers and their labor Shadows know that the high commissioners of these six African nations have jointly condemned this bill as inexcusable meddling in Africa’s Democratic Affairs there are in the UK tens of thousands of Trophy Hunter animals which the bill doesn’t cover and
If the UK hates trophy hunting it should ban it here first uh I don’t particularly want to see that but that is what people in Africa feel when the bill for the proposed ban was read a second time last year the minister told the commons that its purpose was to reduce the impossible
Pressure on Africa’s Wildlife other MPS argued that me that the measure would save thousands of animals from the barbaric and Savage African practice of legal hunting indeed The Honorable member canre used other such adjectives but this is misleading in fact 70% of MP’s statements from the second reading
Of this bill were analyzed in an Oxford University study and were deemed to be factually incorrect this is a 6,000 species Bill and most of those are not threatened by trophy hunting since the year 2000 the UK has imported around 1% of the species
In this bill in 24 years at least 20 of the species that the UK Imports may be or are benefiting from trophy hunting rural Africa welcomes controlled legal hunting it helps manage excessive herds and Rogue animals and the fees that Hunters pay also bring significant cash into remote areas where tourists and
Photo Safaris cannot get to this incr creates incentives for villagers to refrain from poisoning snaring or shooting the animals 20 to 100% of concession fees usually go towards Community Land Africans know that legal hunting reduces illegal hunting and it’s the poaching often funded by Chinese criminal gangs that provide the critical
Risk of survival to the species that we all treasure and these brutal gangs are indiscriminate in how many animals they kill by contrast legal hunting Estates need and want to grow them herds to ensure the future of their businesses and that is why they invest heavily in anti-poaching
Patrols they provide the armed guards which are vital to protect these animals from gruesome deaths This legal hunting operates under strict quotas agreed by national governments and the international regulator and as a result the herds have flish flourished one paper found that in Kenya where hunting
Has long been banned there has been a dram dramatic fall in Wildlife numbers another study found that Botswana which did ban hunting saw a horrific surge in the human Wildlife conflict with a 593 increase in elephant carcasses being discovered and that disaster led to the ban being quickly
Reversed in 2016 briefings from the international Union for conservation of nature iucn States that legal well-regulated trophy hunting programs can and do play an important role in delivering benefits to both wildlife conservation and for the livelihoods and well-being of indigenous and local communities in a letter to to the
Secretary of State for the environment food and Rural Affairs namibia’s uh Minister for environment and tourism said we are most concerned about how this proposed law would undermine the finances of our protected areas and conserv IES the lack of dedicated land and the protection which hunting pays for would critically undermine the
Survival of species which we all love he went on to say the implications of this legislation therefore extend far beyond what has become known as trophy hunting potentially impacting the livelihoods of rural communities that rely on the revenue it generates a joint statement from Southern African government representatives in the UK opposed the
Current Bill saying yes I’d be delighted I think that only I think he indicated that only 1% of these trophies came to this this country well if it’s only 1% and we enact this piece of legislation it’s not going to make that much difference then is it to to those
Countries it made enough difference for him to turn up and for me and it made enough difference for all these representatives of countries who care about the creatures we all purport to care about to say that this bill is wrong and in fact they said if income streams from trophy hunting were
Substantially reduced as would be the outcome from this bill land would be abandoned and subject to poaching or converted to less biodiversity friendly uses such as Agriculture and livestock production local communities live near and with Wildlife would suffer I think it’s pretty clear that they don’t think he’s right the statement ends Southern
Africa’s track record on conservation is worldly Ing and we use trophy hunting to do it let us continue to do so and I recognize that that is very awkward for members opposite who care about animals but the people who are responsible for those animals are telling us that we are
Wrong Botswana is the top country in the world for large animals Namibia is second Tanzania is third and all three countries have paid hunting to finance protected space and armed guards for these animals and the country which is 123rd in the world that’s us are in the
Words of David atur one of the most nature depleted countries in the world we got rid of the last brown bear a thousand years ago and our last wolves 264 years ago Africa’s human population has also risen Eightfold during our lifetimes causing immense pressure on the land available for wildlife this
Means that Africans are increasingly coming into conflict with big animals which may eat their goats threaten their children or trample their Villages botswana’s Minister for environment and tourism started an article published in the Daily Mail last year with last month I attended the funeral of two villages
In my homeland both of them were teenagers tragically killed by charging wild buffalo as they traveled to school and work and sadly this is not an isolated incident she went on to say believe me I do understand the horror people feel when they see a trophy of a uh when they
See a photograph of a trophy hunting um person posing behind beside a recent kill lion killings in particular seem to cause outrage amongst Britains especially after the notorious shooting of cesil the lion by the American Trophy Hunter in Zimbabwe in 2015 the picture widely circulated of Walter Palmer standing over cil’s body became
Emblematic of man’s destruction destructive relationship with nature reasonable though this reaction is it is knee-jerk it fails to acknowledge that for many Africans trophy hunting is vital for the local population it is a wildlife conservation measure that generates income used to combat illegal poaching supporting Community Development and enhancing habitat protection sadly we
All too often Focus solely on Animal Welfare and possibly at the expense of human life in Africa I have thought carefully about the amendment I intend to submit for this bill the bill does not need to keep coming back in the way the honorable moment for Wy has brought it back my
Amendment will ensure that the bill protects certain species whilst recognizing that other countries are better at managing conservation perhaps even than we are it will allow the Secretary of State to add or withd Draw countries from a list of countries which issue hunting licenses and show sufficient levels of concern for
Conservation any hunting trophy obtained under license in a country that is on the list would be exempt from the ban Kenya would not be on the list as it does not allow hunting and its Wildlife numbers sadly have declined but countries that do and that were doing a
Good job should be allowed to continue this bill is questioned by science it is questioned by African countries and there is no excuse for blundering into an inadvertent racism and I ask the house that if we want Africa’s big animals to survive into the future do not ignore the science and the
Misinformation which endangers the animals that We Care the most about yeah C eord thank you m Madam Deputy speaker and uh um I it’s an honor to follow the north The Honorable member of North heriage here but I can’t say that I agree with a single word that he said he
Quoted David atur and David atur describes trophy hunting in this as incredulous uh and uh certainly doesn’t support it I pay tribute to my right honorable friend member for Wy for bringing this forward the previous work of the honorable member for Crawley and also to our our departed friend Bob
Blizzard who did an enormous amount of work on this issue when he he was a member and and and the reason I just wanted to make a short contribution to this debate is because I had the privilege of actually going on a Savari when uh uh my wife and I visited uh
Africa and uh it it was the trip of a lifetime and if I ever get the chance to get back and do that again I don’t think it would be the same trip because the first time experience of seeing these magnificent beasts in their own habitat um is something you
Never forget and I would try to impress that on those people who seek to the these uh uh the the thrill I suppose is what they’re looking for of murdering these the these beasts I we arrived at our camp and within 2 hours we were in a
Truck and taken out to uh to to look at uh the wildlife and within that 2 hours I was s sitting in a truck in with open side sides and a lion just walked past the bottom of the truck I could literally look look down and see the
Back of the lion as it walked past me and and I sat there and thought for a minute what hell am I doing here uh because there is literally no cage around you uh and uh but you trust entirely this uh stranger that you’ve just met who is the guide that takes you
Around and here you are with this wild beast only a couple of meters away from you uh just walking calmly past the truck so get up close and see those animals in that to and and experience that is something never to be forgot and the most most memorable experience was
When we were on the side of the chobby river in Botswana and uh and uh a herd of elephants were just feeding at dusk grumbling to one another talking to one another as they at the reads on the side of the river and we got up quite close to them
Felt these huge beasts quite quite close and felt entirely safe and you felt that you had a privileged position being so close to them in their natural habitat and experiencing them in that way the idea that anyone would go into that environment with a gun and Slaughter
Those animals is beyond me uh if you want to experience the wildlife don’t go murdering it go up close to it and experience it and if you just imagine for a minute the truck that we were in had probably about a dozen people in it
If every one of us had a gun and went out slaughtering the animals you know the the effects on the species right across you know would be enormous so so the I mean the the numbers of us that go with their armed with cameras rather than guns um on the economies of those
Countries is enormous you can’t you can’t compare it and the arguments that we’ve heard today about about being uh you know racist towards uh African countries it’s not just about African countries I not any will anyone say we’re being racist to Canadians but not wanting polar bears to be imported this
This I mean as in the words of David atur this is incredulous I’m going to give away once because I want I don’t want to take up too much time the Canadian government to object it’s the African countries that object to this and and I hope that that was clear from
What I said earlier I’m sure it is but but it’s also a very tiny bit of their economy that the hunting uh uh fraternity he contribute to but what we seem to have heard today is an argument that without the enormous wealth of the people who go trophy hunting uh that conservation
Can’t be afforded and I just don’t accept that that is a a a reasonable a reasonable argument and and of course you know fees can be paid by people like I would pay an enormous fee for the privilege of going to uh uh to see these
Animals in their own habitat and and and leave behind that fee in order to pay for conservation so there are there are ways that we can we can uh contribute to conservation which way would out out out out uh uh out pay the money that uh The Honorable members officite have been
Talking talking about and just to finish I mean let’s be honest about this the PE the majority of the people that spoke this talk this out in the House of Lords in The Other Place were hereditary peers that’s the truth of it the enormously privileged wealthy said calling this
Idea that has enormous support from all of the people course because it has the support of the people it has to be socialist doesn’t it I mean has to be socialist because commoners want it and uh how can we possibly uh see the conservative party supporting such a
Measure that is so socialist in its fundamental objectives I mean this this is complete nonsense but there is a species that perhaps metaphorically I want State metaphorically that we should be hunting to Extinction and that is the position of the hereditary peers in the ability to
Vote on our Lords in our country that is an outdated anathema that has to come to an end and the person who starts that hunt will have my full backing uh so Christopher choke ma Madam Deputy speaker I I think it’s a Pity that The Honorable gentleman in a debate
Which should be about facts has allowed his prejudices to come to uh the the four because I don’t think that helps his cause indeed um my honorable friend and I agreed that actually this shows that we are winning the argument today because the honorable gentleman here some of his colleagues are having to
Resort to uh smearing U members who are in the other in the other place and they put forward perfectly reasonable uh amendments and the the pro the problem the problem was that they ran out of time for discussion and it that that that bill as it was had been
Amended in in this place and the only reason it was amended in this place Madame Deputy speaker was because my honorable friend and I tabled a large number of amendments which put pressure upon the promoter of the bill and on the government to accept some of those amendments and one of those amendments
Was to add something to the bill which is now Clause four of the bill and one of the Amendments was to remove something from the bill which is which was a Henry VII Clause allowing the uh subject matter to which this bill would apply to be extended by statutory
Instrument without any proper uh consultation so the bill is a better Bill than the bill which was first introduced into this place by my honorable friend for for Crawley but the bill is still um very defective and and certainly I think it would be a much better Bill if the the Amendments
Suggested by my honorable friend in his excellent speech were to be incorporated within the text I Happ to get away need be but um sorry I thought I’m sorry I was a little slow to give to intervene at that point uh my my R friend is making an excellent speech
As always and the purpose of these amendments is to ensure that we take any uh risk of racism away from this legislation because at the end of the day we are united in wanting better conservation my honorable friends that is that is what unites us and the disagreements across the house are on
The means to the end everybody wants to have better cons conservation of endangered species and wildlife in in Africa and I like the The Honorable gentleman Elam I’ve been to had the privilege of going and and seeing um Safari in in Africa in South Africa indeed on two separate occasions one was
In I think about 1984 and it was pretty hard to find in the game reserves um the wild animals for which we were uh looking but when I went about 18 months ago again Madame Deputy speaker there were there was abundance of rhinos giraffes elephants
Lands leopards and so on and uh we had some most amazing experiences and where we we stayed people were using their cameras but they were also relying upon the protection provided by uh the excellent team who were looking after and conserving that area of a essentially a safari park
Or or a game reserve but when we were there Madam Deputy speaker we could see with our own eyes what was happening with people who were coming in trying uh to poach the animals which have being looked after and the cost of measures against poachers is incredibly high and
How is that cost going to be funded unless it’s going to be paid for by the people who are actually engaged in the conservation and one small means by which they do raise funds is through allowing the collection of trophies and they they allow people to collect these
These trophies and I think almost all of them are that are not kept in in Africa are imported into the United States or into Spain or or into very few are brought into uh this uh country um and so what it I I think this came out in an
Early discussion whatever else happens whatever happens to this bill this trophy hunting is going to uh continue um but it may not involve the import of of a small number of trophies into this country under a Licensing and Regulatory regime which has stood the test of time so instead of having regulation of
Imports we’re going to have an outright ban on Imports and why are we going to do that when you look at the impact assessment not for this current bill Madam Deputy speaker but the impact assessment which was produced in 20121 in in respect of an earlier uh
Bill and the answer this is produced by the government why is government intervention necessary it will address public concerns about Imports of hunting trophies from endangered species so essentially the government is admitting in its own impact assessment that this is about presentation about virtue signaling about pandering to public
Opinion whether or not that public opinion is sound so let’s take ourselves back to the time Madam Deputy speaker when the government took the view uh and Parliament took the view that we should um abolish capital punishment at that time uh a vast majority of the population took the view that we should
Keep uh capital punishment if we’ applied the principles which are appli being applied in relation to this bill then we would still have uh capital punishment because it would address and I quote public concerns about the issue of people being murdered and that they we we in this
House need to rely upon science and fact rather than allowing prejudices and ignorance to uh Prevail and that’s one of the reasons why I do hope that this bill will be able to be improved if indeed it receives a second reading uh to today can I also um Madam Deputy
Speaker refer to the what else another point in this impact assessment because um paragraph uh four or or I think section four of of the impact assessment at page 21 in paragraphs 98 onwards refers to the costs of this proposed legislation and I think that’s the point
That my honorable friend and I are seeking to get across to the government it says in 2019 a letter from 130 researchers described how in African countries that practice trophy hunting more land has been conserved under trophy hunting than Ander national parks with hunting areas contributing to landscape connectivity some argue that restricting
The Import and Export of trophies from hunting risks land conversion and biodiversity loss and other alternative area area management strategies must be in place to promote conservation protecting dangered species and support livelihoods furthermore many questions remain on whether Alternatives such as Wildlife tourism can effectively replace trophy hunting especially in areas with
Poor political and economic stability and areas with less aesthetic appeal that is and not what I was saying that is what the government said in considering the costs of this legislation when it was doing its impact assessment and then it goes on to say that Wildlife conflict with local people
Can impose serious costs including causing physical harm and death damaging crops predating livestock and competing with livestock for food where Wildlife provides few benefits to local people and or imposed substantial costs animals are often killed for food trade or to remove a problem animals and that’s a recognition a welcome recognition by the
Government of some of the realities surrounding this subject rather than relating solely to the prejudices of of of people who have uh been ill informed by certain organizations the government also concedes and I I quote at paragraph 100 evidence suggests that trophy hunting can provide a value for animals which
Incentivizes their protection for the purposes of hunting rather than indiscriminate removal EG land Loose Change to agriculture without trophy hunting an income stream linked to positive conservation outcomes could be lost and other options need to be in place to address this conflict that’s what the government was saying in its uh
Uh impact assessment and so I hope we’re going to hear from the minister when she uh winds up this debate how the government is going to address those concerns which it recognized in its impact assessment if indeed it is still hellbent on promoting and pushing this legislation through to try and get it
Onto the statute book and then the government also conceded perhaps this is a point my honorable friend could also refer to the government also conceded in this impact assessment that a ban in the legal movement of animal trophies could have the unintended consequences including the legal trade in Wildlife
Parts which is unregulated it could also reduce the amount of protein available to local communities as meat is often a byproduct of trophy hunts after a hunting ban in 2014 in Botswana one Village lost the provision of 154 tons of meat so less protein was available to the community this resulted in an
Increase in illegal poaching and document and documented declines in Wild life so that those are facts uh Madam Deputy speaker what is the government’s response to those facts to which it referred in its own impact assessment in 2021 and then the final issue of costs under paragraph 102 one of the major
Arguments for hunting for trophies is that it provides Financial benefits to local communities and without trophy hunting these benefits could be lost however the extent to which local communities truly B benefit is the subject of debate and of course that’s the debate we’re having today um Madame
Deputy speaker so let us not take a a view that all those people who are supporting of this bill are lovers of animals and all those people who are against it are uh despise animals nobody could be a stronger supporter of animals than than I am and indeed my wife and I
Are proud that we have produced a daughter who is now a veteranary surgeon uh and can one produce uce any more evidence of the The Importance of Being into inculcating one’s children a love of animals which their their parents uh share so let’s have none of this nonsense about suggesting that this is
This is a vile activity and and those people who are against this bill are are some subject to some sort of vilification that is completely uh ridiculous Madame Deputy speaker can I also uh refer to the letter to which my honorable friend referred as well from the namibian association of cbnrm
Support organizations this is a letter which was sent to all British MPS and I’m disappointed that there aren’t more of my parliamentary colleagues here who will have seen this letter and and what have they done as a result of the points made in this letter one asks
Rhetorically the Mr Louie um says please do not regard Africans as being incapable of deciding our domestic policies the reason we have legal hunting is that it pays for protected land for our big animals as our human population grows it is crucial for our landons and elephants to have a such space
Our rhinos also require armed guards to safeguard them from Ruthless poaching gangs financed by Chinese criminals when there are no guards massive numbers of the animals get killed by these brutal gangs legal hunting pays for the guards and kills far fewer and when we as a
Family were um in uh South Africa we saw the consequences of what happens with rhinos because in order to uh try and disincentivize the illegal poaching of rhinos the rhinos are dehorned but such is the value of rhino horn now Madame Deputy speaker because of um ill-conceived
Bans on use of rhino even from dead animals that rhinos are now being poached just for that part of the horn which is no longer visible which is a part of an extension of the head and that again is a consequence unintended consequence obviously an unintended consequence of
Restrictions on the ability of countries where they have got uh when they are not able to export the Rhino the horn from uh dead animals and and so this is why this needs it is a very nuanced uh debate and I’m not sure that we are
Getting as close to it today as I think their lord were when they were debating it at report stage in in their house and th this um very important letter of Maxi Louie goes on to say the evidence for this is in the peer-reviewed science which shows how successful Africa system
Is at defending our precious animals people who have read this science and back legal hunting including the EU commission I’m not sure that that’s his strongest argument um and George mbio I think that is a stronger argument so does the global regulator of the international Union for conservation of
Nature we use legal hunting to manage our big animals because they are a mortal risk to us and our children African lives are at stake you do not have any dangerous wild animals Britain got rid of its last brown bears a thousand years ago and it last wolves
264 years ago so what he says in conclusion is wildlife in Africa is flourishing because of our management we ask for no more virtue signaling it’s arrogant ignorant and racist and I couldn’t have put it uh better my myself Madam Deputy speaker and that’s why I’m I’m very disappointed that the
Government continues to be uh pandering uh to those people who uh would fit into the description given by Maxi uh Louie uh and can I now turn to the amendment which was passed in the bill which was presented last in the last session uh by my uh honorable friend for Crawley
Because the right honorable gentleman in introducing the bill today didn’t refer to that except to say that uh he this was in was now in the the legislation and it showed how we had passed a bill to the other place which as a result of a consensus that’s one interpretation of
What happened on that uh Friday when we were debating uh report stage amendments essentially what happened uh as you may recall Madame Deputy speaker was that uh there were a large number of amendments and uh and a deal was done uh whereby some of those amendments were um
Accepted two of them two in particular all the other ones uh were rejected um but one of those amendments that the the the new Clause setting up an Advisory board on Hunting trophies is now in this new uh Bill and I’d like to just speak briefly to uh that and the importance of
It and the background to it because who is going to decide on these issues relating to uh hunting uh trophies a and that’s why I think we should have expertise rather than people who are um prejudiced this and that’s why claw um Clause 41 requires that the secretary of
State must appoint an Advisory board on Hunting trophies to be known as The Advisory Board The Advisory Board appointed under that subsection must have up to three members and the role of The Advisory Board is to advise the Secretary of State on any question relating to this act which the
Secretary of State May refer to the committee on any other matter relating to the import to Great Britain of hunting trophies derived some species of animals which appear to the Secretary of State to be or to be likely to become endangered and that I think is a an
Improvement on the original bill because it would requ require the Secretary of State to take some advice instead of just listening to the Mob so to speak um but um and and and I’m I’m pleased that this is actually still in in the bill um and Clause 44 says in a me appointing
Members of The Advisory Board the secretary of state must have regard to their expertise in matters relating to the import of hunting trophies but one thing which we did discuss in the previous uh Bill and which I I don’t think uh we have really discussed today
Is the extent of this bill because this bill extends to England and Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland but the prohibition on Imports only applies to Imports into Great Britain and why is that and why does the right honorable gentleman in limiting this bill to Imports into Great Britain think
That that is going to help meet his objective and doesn’t it really show that uh we are no longer one nation of the United Kingdom but there’s going to be a different regime in Northern Ireland uh compared with that which prevails in the rest of our our country
And um I hope that perhaps the minister will be able to explain um in Her speech why this bill if if the government is in favor of this and the it is the government which purports to be a government for the whole of the United Kingdom rather than just Great Britain
Why the government is only uh restricting purporting to restrict the import of hunting trophies into Great Britain and not into uh Northern Ireland and maybe that’s got something to do with the fact that there’s a an open border between Northern Ireland and uh Ireland itself um and that Ireland is in
The European Union and the European Union has a much more benevolent approach to the issue of the import of hunting tropes and it seems that this government has but I think that that’s an important issue which needs to be addressed uh in this legislation and I
Hope that um when the the bill get if the bill gets into committee that we can ensure that the bill the provisions of the bill apply equally to all parts of the United Kingdom and um so Madame depy there’s no need to speak at Great length on something like this when the arguments
Against the bill are are so uh strong but can I just say that I don’t I don’t think um we should vilify the people who engage in conservation measures in the way that some people have been seeking uh to to do the the proof of the pudding
Is in the eating if you look at Kenya compared with other countries in southern Africa uh Kenya as a result of their well-intended bands that has been totally uh counterproductive whereas in uh southern Africa we are seeing tremendous progress in conservation of endangered species and just thinking
About out um slightly uh lateral to to this but I was thinking um are is the collection of rare butterflies endangered butterfly species um illegal in this country and the the answer is no it is not except with very very few exceptions so if we are free uh
To uh pin butterflies uh to uh the wall and put them into uh display cabinets does it really suit us that we should be preaching to people in Africa as to what they can do in terms of their conservation uh measures I think not and then we talk about the importance of
Culling and culling is essential um if you’re going to control the number of species in for example in a restricted area in a wildlife par we engage in culling in this country particularly now of deer culling and part of that culling can be can include using um the right for people with
Rifles to to shoot uh some of the deer which they think have got the finest um antlers and then those um deer are then uh kept um or are kept as as trophies um that that’s not my line of business at all but but I I respect other people may
Like to to do that but it’s it’s all part of the process of culling um in order to ensure that we don’t have too many deer to be managed within our country so Madame Deputy speaker this is a complex uh bill um and it is worthy of further detailed consideration but can I
Also say that I’m I’m worried is that the government may have a secret agenda which is essentially uh to try and use the parliament acts in respect of this uh legislation and I’d be grateful if um my honorable friend the minister can assure me that under no circumstances would the government seek to
Override the parliament of this United Kingdom by seeking uh to use the parliament acts again on on a bill which was uh rejected in the other house because not because it was voted down but because there was a lack of time given for it and I’m not sure that
There’s any precedent where the parliament acts have been used in circumstances where the debate in the other place has been curtailed through lack of time um and then when it’s brought the bill is brought back in the next uh session then that failure to provide time by the government is then
Used as a justification for using the parliament acts and I’d be grateful if the minister could respond to that point as well when she winds up uh this debate but finally can I put on record Madame Deputy speaker that I am a against this bill having a second reading in its uh
Present form and hope they have the opportunity uh to a vote in that way later yeah Shadow Minister Ruth Jones Thank You Madame Deputy speaker and I’m very pleased to be able to be speaking in this important bill today ending the importation into the UK of trophies produced during the barbaric
Sport of trophy hunting is something that should have happened a long time ago and I thank my friend the right honorable member for wle for bringing this this bill forward today following on from The Honorable member for Crawley’s earlier Bill Madam Deputy speaker we need to get this sorted today
Because we’re running out of you know wly crawly I’m not sure there’s another constituency that actually rhymes with this but I’m sure we can work on it I also thank the Animal Welfare Charities Nationwide including four pores Humane Society International World animal protection and ban trophy hunting who’ve
Been working tirelessly for years to pass this legislation and who’ve produced a most helpful briefing note for this debate today and I’d also like to pay tribute to the former president of Botswana Ian Karma who’s been a tireless and passionate campaigner on these issues too but for all the praise
Our campaigners are due Madame Deputy speaker we shouldn’t have needed to be here debating this bill today this is a piece of legislation that should have been passed by this government long ago we all know that members of the public including in my own constituency of Newport West overwhelmingly support this bill
The wide public support that exists in favor of this legislation is reflected in the fact that banning hun hunting trophies was both a 2019 conservative party Manifesto promise as The Honorable me member for Crawley said earlier as well as a labor Manifesto promise so why is This Promise by the government not
Already in law why has the government failed to bring forward its own bill Banning trophy hunting as it pledged to voters that it would and given an earlier private members Bill seeking to implement a ban progressed through the house last year why are we here again debating an equivalent Bill the reason
Madame Deputy speaker is that the private members Bill we debated last year was deliberately and wholly undemocratically derailed by a small number of mostly hereditary conservative peers in the other place as The Honorable member for Elam pointed out earlier these peers ignored the will of the public the welfare of animals and
Their own party’s Manifesto commitment by using the amendment process as a blocking device on this side of the house we think that’s unacceptable and the labor party wants to see this long promised and long overdue legislation progressed as soon as possible I will that when the bill reached the
House of Lords no peer step forward to sponsor it why didn’t a labor here do that I thank my honorable um the The Honorable member opposite for uh pointing that out and uh obviously there were issues that were going on within the house that the other place which I
Was not party to at the time so I’m sorry I can’t comment on his comments there um but these I will I’m great she keeps referring disparagingly to a hereditary peers but isn’t it correct that of all the peers in the other place a significant proportion of hereditary
Peers have themselves been elected to that house unlike most of the other ones who are appointees I Thank The Honorable member for that um and and he talks about me keeping referring to um in fact I’ve I’ve referred to it once and that was in response to the gentleman beh behind me
So you know I do sex friend of course I will um I find it fascinating that not only do members opposite want to defend this uh uh sort of completely outdated and barbaric practice of trophy hunting but they also want to uh what want to defend the polic the procedure by which
A few um hereditary peers elect amongst themselves with not a member of the public having any any say in the matter could I also help my uh honorable Friend by saying of course in the last in the last session of parliament the bill here was introduced by a conservative me
Member of Parliament indeed there was a cons a a there was a conservative uh member of the House of Lords who was going to take up that that that that bill someone else shot in and grabbed it before with a bit of slight slight of
Hand if he wants to defend that sort of jiggery pokery he’s welcome to UD and I’m just quite anxious that we come back to the bill as opposed to what might be a later bill in the house which is about hereditary peers who is Jones I I thank
You madam Deputy speaker for clarifying that but I do thank the member behind me for for clarifying the situation that happened there and I will move on because um this bill will prohibit the bringing into Great Britain hunting trophies from the species listed in Annex a being the most endangered
Species or Annex B bringing being species threatened by commercial trade of the principal Wildlife trade regulation these lists largely correspond to the equivalent list in the convention on international trade in endangered species of wild FAA and Flora sites an important International agreement protecting endangered plants
And animals that the UK is a party to the bill also creates an Advisory board on hunting trophies as The Honorable members opposite highlighted earlier which will advise the Secretary of State on any issues relating to the legislation or any matter relating to the import to Great Britain of hunting
Trophies derived from species which are or are likely to become endangered I cannot emphasize how crucial this legislation is trophy hunting is not only bar barbaric it is Holy unnecessary in this country as in most countries we have long recognized that animals should not be subjected to unnecessary suffering this principle is
Reflected domestically in our Animal Welfare act 2006 and aligns with our understanding supported by Animal Welfare science and also enshrined in legislation animals are sentient beings as sentient beings animals deserve to be treated with dignity and Humanity but there’s nothing dignified or Humane about the sport of trophy hunting it
Involves killing innocent animals for the sole purpose of turning their bodies into trophies these animals often experience immense pain fear and distress in the moments before they die some may be shot by inexperienced Hunters using less efficient weapons like crossbows or spears which do not deliver rapid death and we saw this with
Cesil the lion in 2015 who suffered for several hours following his wounding by crossbow in a beautiful part of southern Africa before he was finally put out of his misery his death quite rightly caused outrage around the world including right here in Britain other practices that hunting trophy can
Involve raise further welfare concerns and I was horrified to learn of the practice of canned hunting or the captive Wildlife farming of animals for hunting this practice often involves inflicting extremely poor welfare conditions on the captive wild animals mostly Lions who may have to suffer from unsatisfactory enclosures a lack of
Enrichment and insufficient provision of shelter and vet treatment all so that part of their body may eventually be become somebody’s Trophy and let’s not forget the ne negative impact that trophy hunting can have on other animals as well Madame Deputy speaker such as the Haunter Offspring who may be unable
To survive on their own after their parent is left for dead and this was highlighted again earlier um and also the weakening of the gene pool again highlighted earlier these are important factors to to consider trophy hunting can also have a negative impact on Wildlife Trophy Hunters tend to Target
Some of the world’s most iconic animals including endangered wild animal species such as lions polar bears giraffes and rhinos these Hunters selfishly kill these vulnerable animals so they can display their body parts as some sort of perverse prize World animal protection notes that British Hunters have brought home approximately 25,000 hunting trophies
Since the 1980s and approximately 5,000 of these came from species which were at risk of Extinction the public are right to find this absolutely war and want to increase the protection afforded to these species who are already under pressure from habitat loss climate change poaching and illegal Wildlife trade by passing this
Important legislation and The Honorable member for Canter um outlin so eloquently earlier on these issues because let’s not forget Madame Deputy speaker how unnecessary these hor Horrors really are compared with overall Revenue that local economies gain from tourism income from trophy hunting income is so insignificant a 2017 report by The
Economist at large analyzing eight African countries found that while overall tourism was between 2.8 and 5.1% of GB GDP in the eight steady countries the total economic contribution of Trophy Hunters was at most about 0.03% of GDP in St contrast to the claims made by The Honorable members
Opposite we also know that there are more ethical and sustainable alternatives to Trophy h in for conservation and I note a recent study which showed that 84% of previous or potential tourists including those visiting from within Africa to South Africa would be willing to pay a daily lion protection fee for wildlife
Conservation similarly photographic safaris which as the Born Free Foundation puts it involves shooting an animal with a camera rather than a gun is another welfare friendly alternative to hunting trophies these alternative activities have the potential to generate income equaling or even exceeding the income currently generated from trophy hunting without causing pain
Suffering to wild animals as The Honorable me member for Elam uh highlighted in his amazing experience he had on his photographic Safari the idea that this country should be supporting efforts globally to promote Humane tourism is also consistent with recent legislation passed in this house the animals low welfare activities abroad at
2023 however I know that the Secretary of State for environment food and Rural Affairs is yet to even consult on the activity regulations which are necessary in order for this legislation to have any impact or to give any indication as to when such consultation will begin and
I would encourage him to do so as a matter of urgency because wild animals deserve protection and this requires regulatory action but as with so many Animal Welfare issues this conservative government is letting animals and the public down by failing to act because as a shadow Secretary State State my friend
From cuden North pointed out last Friday when another private members Bill containing a broken conservative party promise was before this house there is a rather extraordinary number of Animal Welfare pledges made by this government which have been completely abandoned the government likes to tell the public that it has progressed World
Leading Animal Welfare commitments but compassion in World farming ranked the UK only ninth out of European countries by the percentage of cagefree farm animals trailing Luxembourg Austria Sweden the Netherlands Germany Slovenia Denmark and Belgium so of course while on this while our government has announced support for the private members bill on Animal
Welfare issues they were that were put forward by its backbencher MPS after the government abandoned the kept animals bill this is not leadership and I would gently say to the minister if the government really cared about animals and if it really wished to honor the enormous public interest in passing
Strong laws for Animals it will be putting forward its own promise measures itself so until it does so we on this side will keep reminding this government of its broken promises and we’ll keep putting forward private members Bill like this one today which we hope will become low as soon as possible Madame
Deputy speaker we have seen in the house here today A near unanimous show support this is not racist Colonial legislation this is UK law governing what comes into the UK that is our right and this bill seeks to exercise this so let’s get on with it and let’s get it done thank
You Minister Rebecca thank you uh Madame Deputy speaker now there are very many on both sides of the house who have been eagerly awaiting the passing of this piece of legislation uh and also many uh outside uh campaigners have worked tirelessly on this issue and many of our constituents
I’ve had many emails myself uh in Taun and Dean on this so I want to thank uh uh The Honorable member from Wy for introducing this bill and Wy warly apologies for introducing this bill and all those who have taken part but not least of course uh my honorable friend
From Crawley uh who did such a sterling job just one year ago we had a lively debate then I think he will agree and we’ve had another similarly Lively event um debate today um and so so I wanted to just list some of the colleagues who have so spoken so eloquently on both
Sides but we’ve had um we’ve had the honorable member from East Worthing and shorum on his photography issue which was such a well-made point about taking photographs of these wonderful creatures chipping Barn at Watford uh we have also had suffk Coastal so input from all those on interventions but also some
Some some really moving speeches uh particularly from my honorable friend from Crawley and we’ve had many opposition speakers of course uh joining in as well uh I wanted uh it’s clear obviously still that the hunting trophy idea uh continues to divide opinion we’ve actually uh witnessed some of that
Today from our honorable uh friends from Christ Church and North herfordshire uh there’s disagreement over the scientific social economic moral ethical rationale for trophy hunting and that will no doubt continue for some time and there are those who point to the evidence about the potential benefits of
Well-managed hunting we did hear a great deal about that uh from uh my honorable friend from North herfordshire uh but we’ve also heard on the other side of the of the evidence of harm on poor practice but what I really wanted to stress today is the critical thing is we
Are actually facing a triple planetary crisis we have biodiversity loss climate change and pollution and though those are the greatest threats that we are facing globally and as the nature Minister Madam Deputy speaker this is in my box every day and uh I am only too
Aware of the threats on all those things and how we need to tackle them and about a million animal and plant species are facing extinction uh many many of those things have have occurred in really recent Time In Our Lifetime and the abundance and the um the diversity and
Connectivity of species is declining faster than at any time in human history and this includes species targeted for trophy H hunting and uh we all know we all know and we all love them elephants rhinos lions leopards polar bears just to name a small handful and there are
Those who argue that banning the import of trophies from these animals won’t do anything to improve their conservation status and I’m I’m certainly listening to my honorable friends but the question we got to ask ourselves is whether the import into Great Britain of trophies from endangered animals helps tackle biodiversity
Loss does this trade really help secure a sustainable future for species on the brink of Extinction and many animals r a terrible threat anyway because their habitats are shrinking and that’s for a range of reasons social economic but certainly climate change is all part of that and
Ultimately the aim of this bill is to ensure the Imports of hunting trophies to Great Britain are not putting additional pressure on already threatened species that is what should concentrate our minds and that is why Madam Deputy speaker I am pleased to confirm that government will be
Supporting this bill and in doing so we will signal our continued determination to fulfill our Manifesto commitment in this regard and I’ve heard arguments that the ban will have implications for local communities and conservation efforts globally and that is definitely something something that we’ve got to consider very carefully and we must be
Alive to the unintended consequences however this bill is about Imports to Great Britain many have referred to that um earlier in the debate my writer one friend from suffer Coastal reminded us of that and this is about listening to the British public uh there is clear strong and consistent
Messaging that we need to bring an end to the import of endangered animals taken for the purpose of hunting trophies and indeed The Winds of Change are blowing Us in this direction a number of countries have already put these restrictions in place so it is I’m actually not going to take any
Interventions because so many interventions were taken already and we do not want to restrict the the you I will refer I will refer to some of these points he has rightly raised though in in just a moment um it’s obviously important then to recognize that the import ban it won’t prevent a UK
Resident or citizen from participating in hunting whilst they are overseas uh trop trophy hunting can and will continue around the world and it’s right that each country should be able to decide how best to manage its own Wildlife uh this bill does not change that and this was actually highlighted
By my own friend from um North Herford CH and my own friend from Christ Church you know vifly but we’re not preventing that so I think that has to be remembered and there have actually been regular opportunities for any countries on all around the world on both sides of
This debate uh to uh to discuss this whole issue and raise raise their points and indeed we’ve had letters from the president of Botswana and Namibia which actually the High Commissioner was written to just yesterday so it’s really important that we keep in mind the contribution to UK uh the UK trade in
Hunting trophy makes annual Imports of hunting trophies in the UK are very few in number it’s on average 73 per year over the last 10 years but even so it is essential that we do our part to ensure that communities around the world can properly benefit from conserving the
Wildlife that they live alongside and this will was reflected uh during agreement on our hugely important Global biodiversity framework and there’s now very strong and essential focus on how we as a global community Finance biodiversity conservation and restoration work and I know that members in this house know just how much this
Government is doing on that front with our huge 93 million pound Darwin initiative and our 30 million um pound Darwin plus initiative and all of that focuses on biodiversity and conservation but working with locals and Indigenous peoples so so penultimately Madam Deputy speaker I’m just going to turn to the
Bill and just run through uh some of what it contains uh the bill will ban the import of hunting trophies for specific species with the explicit aim of ensuring that Imports to Great Britain are not placing unnecessary pressure on species that are already at risk for these species an import ban
Without exemptions will be the most effective providing Clarity and addressing conservation concerns arising from trafy hunting Clauses one and two of the bill together make provision for the import ban it will cover trophies brought into Great Britain from animals hunted after this legislation comes into Force there are strict um uh clear lines
About anything that’s happened before that um and the definition of a hunting trophy in Clause one is the body of an animal or a readily recognizable part or derivative of an animal that is obtained through hunting for the Hunter’s personal use this is how hunting trophies are defined in our current
Controls under sites Clause two applies the import ban to all species listed in Annex A and B of the wildlife trade regulations the wildlife trade regulations implement the convention on international trade in endangered species or cities in Great Britain and annexes a and b are broadly equivalent
To appendix one and two of that convention and include species that the global Community have agreed to protect through trade restrictions due to their conservation status they cover a great number of species is threatened by International Trade such as big cats or Bears all primates hippos rhinos and
Elephants and as a result the bill will end the permit system for imports of hunting trophies from these species there will be no Provisions for exemptions to the import plan uh clause three is about movements from Northern Ireland uh it really clearly states that from nor um the import ban would not
Apply in relation to the removal of qualifying Northern Ireland goods from Northern Ireland to Great Britain Clause four which was raised uh by uh The Honorable member from Christ Church established as an Advisory board on Hunting Trophies the role of The Advisory Board is to advise on any
Questions relating to the ACT referred to by the Secretary of State and Pa five simply covers extent application commencement and short title so in uh summary just what very quickly on the impact assessment as it didn’t allow any inventions the we heard some views about that impact assessment and the
Government was going to do about that but actually there are two sides to that as well the impact assessment um present it did present uh both sides of the debate but it also highlighted that trophy hunting can lead to population declines and over hunting threatens over 30% of endangered mammal species
According to iucn it also noted tro trophy hunting quots are reliant on rather inappropriate unscientific or excessive quotas and over Reliance on opinions and money management is also based on poor quality data similarly a report by the University of Oxford found damaging effects of unsustainable traing hunting can extend beyond hunting areas
So I I hope that’s answered some of the questions Madam Deputy speaker uh this has been a very positive and Lively debate on both sides of the house I’d like to thank my honorable friend for bringing this back to this house uh and Rec uh reconfirm that the government is
Fully committed to supporting the village uh with the leave of the house in that case I will not be calling John spell to wind up um but we’ll move straight to the uh question the question is that the bill be now read a second time as many as are of that opinion say
I the country [Applause] no division clear the lobby e the question is that the bill be now read a second time as many as our that opinion say country no no tell us for the eyes Mark Fletcher and Mike Wood tell us for the nose Sir Bill wiggin and Sir Christopher choke e
E investigate what the delay is in the lobby please e e for order order the eyes to the right 49 the nose to the left zero thank you uh the eyes to the right 49 the nose to the left zero so the eyes have it the eyes have it unlocked unlock
10 Comments
It is sick that hunting of these magnificent animals is still being done by the rich people from the so-called civilised world. The British almost drove Asiatic Lions and Tigers to extinction in India. This is an unforgivable crime against nature.
There shouldn't be a discussion. Just stop the hunting ffs
London labour see racism everywhere, apart from on its own doorstep!
Is what we pay massive salaries to politicians for . God help yhe country.
Is this value for money?
Why is the place empty? It makes my blood boil that these so called representatives of the people are not there for all debates 🤬🤬🤬
THE HONOURABLE MINISTER mentioned that the people responsibility for these animals is telling us we are wrong. Among things he has mentioned previously, and now I agree with him, he is absolutely right if they can take his mentions into consideration 😊
The other minister said, "Do not export those horrible animals. What is horrible about that
In John Spellar we see Bwana still lives on telling African nations how to be civilized!
Hypocrite
Why would they ban trophies? 🤨