What can other parts of the world learn from Ukraine, as it pioneers bringing acts of ecocide into the discussion of justice in the context of war?
Ukraine is not only having to confront the destruction of human life and infrastructure caused by Russia’s invasion but also having to deal with damage to the environment. The question of the environment is closely linked to that of justice. Ukraine is a pioneer in bringing the acts of ecocide into the discussion of justice in the context of war. The lessons of Ukraine are thus of vital importance to those parts of the world that suffer from environmental damage in the context of armed conflicts, climate breakdown, and other crises.
An expert panel gathers at the RSA to foster public discussion and continued cooperation between organisations and individuals for an ongoing environmentally focused conversation about the consequences of Russia’s war in Ukraine, situated in the context of wider environmental challenges faced globally.
This event is held in partnership with the Ukrainian Institute London, the Delegation of Flanders (Embassy of Belgium) in the UK and Ireland, Finnish Institute in the UK and Ireland, the Cyprus High Commission and EUNIC London (European Union National Institutes for Culture).
The event is made possible thanks to the financial support of the Culture of Solidarity Fund powered by the European Cultural Foundation.
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Nice to see everyone evening everyone you hear me okay welcome welcome welcome uh I’m Andy halan I’m the chief executive here at the RSA and let me just extend a huge welcome to you all uh here to RSA house and all those that are also watching online uh for tonight’s uh really special
Event um just over a year ago we at the RSA were incredibly lucky to collaborate with the Ukrainian Institute in London Alysia in particular where is Alysia over there stood up um to host uh an amazing event uh with a Nobel Prize uh Peace Prize winner Alexandra
Matvichuk and it was a a really heart-wrenching uh but also real privilege for us to hear from her in a role as head of the sener for civil liberties working tirelessly to document the war war crimes and human rights violations perpetrated in Russia’s war against Ukraine sadly another year of War has
Now passed and then as now we at the RSA as staff and as fellows remain absolutely Resolute uh in our support and solidarity uh with our friends in Ukraine uh Ukraine of course is still having to confront not just Untold human suffering but the mass destruction of infrastructure and the catastrophic
Damage to the environment as well and that means the need to secure peace Justice and recovery and to move towards a more positive future of the people of Ukraine is even more urgent now than it ever has been previously as AR say fellows uh in the
Room know this year which is the uh 270th anniversary of the RSA happy birthday to us uh we are 270 Years thank you I haven’t been here the whole time um um and we’ve chosen uh for our theme for the year um the theme of Courage through our public talks and our public
Events and that seems particularly apt as a theme this evening um it’s a huge honor for us to be collaborating again with the Ukrainian Institute team uh to bring together a fantastic panel of speakers all of whom are working with such courage and such commitment in their respective fields to make that process
Of justice and regeneration possible in Ukraine before we hear from them and I can’t wait to hear from them I did they want to pay tribute uh to a wider group uh of people who’ve supported this uh this evening’s event and indeed made tonight’s event possible and that’s uh the delegation of
Flanders in the UK and Ireland it’s the Finnish Institute uh in UK and Ireland it’s the Cypress High commission it’s the culture of solidarity fund uh and the European Union National Institutes for culture in London a huge thanks to all of them for their support for this evening and
Indeed Beyond this evening and with that it just remains for me to say it’s a great pleasure to hand across to the person in charge this evening Sasha editor of the London Ukrainian review to tell you more about tonight’s discussion introduce our speakers uh thanks everyone again for coming I hope you
Enjoy the evening and Sasha the floor is yours thank you thank you andd and thank you everyone in this room and thank you to the RSA it’s a huge privilege and inspiration for us to partner with such an institution with such a strong commitment to social change to
Regenerative Futures uh which we also hope to reach while exercising this radical courage that you spoke about Andy um for the Ukrainian Institute London it’s a very important event and we thank all our partners for supporting us and for bringing this excellent panel of speakers uh to discuss a very urgent
Topic um Global Environmental challenges lessons from Ukraine uh today I’m joined by an absolutely fantastic array of speakers next to me is Anna Akerman uh she’s a climent and energy professional a founding me member of Center for environmental initiatives ecoaction in Ukraine where she worked as head of the
Climate department and currently serves as a board member she’s also a policy Analyst at The International Institute for sustainable development working on green reconstruction of Ukraine thank you for coming Anna uh Mario karari uh is an environmental expert at the European commission’s Ukraine TR service under the directorate general for neighborhood and enlargement
Negotiations she has over 20 years of experience working on the third for the third sector central government and research institutions and she focuses especially on environmental issues in Eastern Europe specializing in Environmental Policy environmental impact assessment and Water Management Joo meta uh is the co-founder and C of stop ecosite coordinating
Between legal developments diplomatic traction and public narrative in the effort to establish ecosite as a crime at the international criminal court JoJo has contributed to un conferences diplomatic events law and business Summits as well as Publications and Broad for and broadcasters such as Time Magazine the New York Times the guardian
The BBC and much more uh part grew uh is Project Director at Neo Eco Ukraine currently uh he works on developing international business t as well as restoring Ukraine’s ecology through circular economy uh designed and developed by new Echo Ukraine I’m very excited to hear more from our distinguished panel but um
I hope uh you will bear with me for a few opening remarks um since 2014 Russia has waged its War not only against the people of Ukraine but also against uh environment in our country in 2022 its crimes only escalated um Ukrainian NGO ecoaction whose representative we are lucky to
Have here today uh has recorded 1,500 cases of environmental damage from Russian war um I will give you three examples just to uh make it more real for all of us uh the first one is mines uh during my field trips to uh Northern and Eastern regions of Ukraine um which
Were occupied by Russia early in 2022 and then liberated by the Ukrainian Army I’m very conscious not to step outside the asphalted uh paths why uh because these areas in Ukraine are heavily mined with anti-personnel uh landmines as well as other explosives explosives uh one third of Ukrainian
Territory which is um something like the territory of Austria and Hungary combined has become a mindfield um it’s the largest mindfield in the world um and this is one of the problems for us to solve in the coming decades uh my second example relates to the destruction of the dams in Ukraine
You might remember that in June 2023 on the 6th of June uh Russia blew up the kovam in southern Ukraine uh flooding around 80 settlements uh endangering around 16,000 people the number of casualties is still unknown because this area is under Russian occupation um it’s needless to say that
The damage from the destruction of the kov kadam was felt Beyond Ukraine because um water containing toxins was flushed into the Black Sea uh how have we as a global Community responded to this crime uh well the answer is that uh last week uh Russia bombed nipro has the nio hydroelectric
Power plant and Dam in Saia my hometown in Southeastern Ukraine um I would say that our response was insufficient to deter Russia in the escalation of its crimes and my third example relates to nuclear blackmail uh you may also know that early in March 2022 Russia occupied the
Zarian nuclear power plant just down the stream uh of the nepro river uh from proest that was bombed last week um for 2 years it remained militarized and last week during the bombings of Ukraine it was cut off the grid yet again and the station was put at risk of
Blackout so what have we done again as a global Community to prevent the escalation of these crimes to demilitarize the first site of Civilian nuclear infrastructure that was used for military aims while we are pondering these grave questions I would also like our discussion tonight to focus on recovery
And on Justice on holding the criminals accountable uh but before we start I would like uh to ask Anna to help us understand as a person who is uh really an expert in what is going on in Ukrainian environmental scene um could you please explain to us the extent of
The damage that has been caused by Russia’s War thank you Sasha um and thank you very much for to all of you for coming here I think on the third year of the of the fullscale war it’s precious to have um people still you know listening um
And today’s topic is also special and as you will see and I I think it’s important that we’re talking about global challenges not on Ukraine because what’s happening in Ukraine actually is teaching us a lot uh and hopefully will also give us a lot of um new tools and
Mechanisms and international ones too to actually deal with uh many issues another important thing that I would want to mention is that I see this more and more that um I mean in UK Ukraine is quite a large country the largest country in Europe however we are how
Many people are we now I never know anym the numbers maybe 14 million let’s rely on something around that um but we are in the end not many because we have one million people in the Army and actually the uh extent of the challenges is enormous and and I think I’m I’m I’m
I’m myself been struck every single day when I see how many tanks have been destroyed how many personnel uh and so on and we’re talking about you know tens of Tanks every day imagine the scale Sasha mentioned the mining and of course the mining that also is happening today is also on a
Huge scale I’ll give you just one number I will don’t want to be overflowing you with numbers but um the recent report by the World Bank says that to rebuild Ukraine to have the economic recovery and reconstruction it would cost half a trillion uh US Dollars and I was trying
To think you know how how to actually grasp this number what is this half a trillion um and we if we want to build the country also better well half a trillion is also um a number so it’s it’s a sum that the EU dedicated to implement the European green deal in the
Coming years for the whole of EU we are talking about rebuilding Ukraine and honestly and I’m sure that today’s speakers too will confirm we will never be able to do this ourselves this is why we rely heavily on International Help support all the time and plus Ukraine of
Course does not just need the military help this is the number one um um issue but also our budget is La in Mindy you know so just cover all of the basic social support education Healthcare and so on so we are in a situation where we
Have to keep the economy running at the same time fighting and I think Ukrainian resilience is and ukrainians are fantastic I’ve been myself now inspired by ukrainians every single day uh by everything they do um and um yeah and I think they’re just incredible um so uh I
Will try to draw kind of a few lines here because uh we are talking about environmental uh D damages myself I’m um a power engineer by education um and I kind of recently uh we have this digital app you know we have our passports in the in the
Smartphone we are very proud of that and we recently had also in this app uh our um education degrees uploaded so I have now kind of again I see my Master’s Degree which says thermal power plant plans uh I graduated in 201 um 2012 uh at ke Poly Technical Institute and and
My professors were uh were incredible they were basically people who were building Ukrainian power system and they were very proudly saying we build the this the dams we build the nuclear power plants and the thermal power plants and now they see them being destroyed so
Just a few days ago the uh AR thermal power plant uh was destroyed I would say completely because although some say it would take years to rebuild it I think we have to understand that it will not be rebuilt because the way actually Ukraine will be designing its new Energy
System would not would be different this was an a power plant that was built in the 70s it was running on gas and oil now it will be something different so that’s why the conversation about the damages to the environment and to climate and then the Reconstruction
It all comes together kind of under one big Cupa we together with the colleagues from eaction we have been recording the um monitoring let’s say damages to the environment and we it’s indeed it’s hundreds s of different types of course when the thermal power plant is being
Shelled it’s one type of the damage to the environment one type of pollution when we are talking about the kov kadam uh destruction uh its whole ecosystems that were destroyed and so on um and I think it’s important to Mark out the kov kadam always remember and not forget
Because this was an enormous enormous type of um damage um that was you know with one single blow up that was affected that affected actually not just Ukraine but many neighboring countries um there was pollution uh from you know the chemical plants that were all on the
River that ended up in the in the Black Sea so that the the algae bloom started in Turkey in Romania in all of the countries nearby in the nearby regions plus the mines that also ended up in the Black Sea it affects everyone um but it’s not just about
That um and I just if you keep in mind the kov kadam uh for now in the and and Dojo would be the person who would talk more about this today I guess but for now in the international um legal field there is the Rome statute that is often
Referred to and there is only one reference to environment in relation to war crimes and it criminalizes and I read intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause widespread longterm and severe damage to the natural environment this is exactly what happened with the kov
Adam and this is why things like echoside are important so but I will not be going to details now but to actually prove that anything is an echoside or an environmental crime is actually very complicated it takes it takes decades and to hold Russia accountable or anybody else accountable who takes this
Sort of decisions to affect this damage um it takes a very long time and hopefully this International Community actually be will be able to make sure that we hold the aggressors comfortable there are many things that happen in Ukraine such as um environmental crimes but also other types of um issues that
We are facing that um you know make rethink are we as a while globally do we have enough tools and mechanisms to actually be dealing with with this sort of different challenges another type of issues that we are raising also with colleagues is climate impacts of the
War uh climate impacts of the um of the military it’s not only in Ukraine that we have a war that is going on it’s also taking place in many other places around the world and also militaries you know exist and they do you know P they do
Exercises and so on but actually these emissions are nowhere to be found uh that means that who is responsible because climate as you know is something the climate change is something that affects us all so Ukraine is trying to raise The Voice international stage also to be talking about this kind of
Things um and finally and the last thing is of course about how Russia’s fullscale Invasion showed how climate and energy security are integrally you know bound to our everyday lives this war being financed by Russian fossil fuel exports abroad and it’s still the case unfortunately there are sanctions that are working partially but
Russia found the loopholes uh and basically reselling uh you know through third countries their oil and gas and coal and so on and we still keep buying it this should you know this should not continue but this is this direct link to fossil fuels energy security and the climate
Again fossil fuels you know are impacting our lives every single day um and with that I think that these are kind of the M most important things but um but also uh when we are started calculating the know the climate impact of the war we actually saw that lots of greenhouse gas
Emissions that that uh are connected to this war are the future emissions from Ukraine reconstruction because to rebuild the country it takes enormous energy you know uh Energy Water Resources and so on um and so you start questioning how do you actually rebuild Greener and we have to be talking about other
Approaches to re build in the country and uh I hope we’ll discuss some of them today too yes thank you so much Anna you prevented preempted my follow up questions to you about this uh third issue under the coupal of problems that we face which is fossil fuels uh and
Trade in fossil fuels uh feeding the militarization of Russian economy um but I would like to return to you when we talk more about reconstruction I would like now to turn to maruka and uh tap into the particular area of your expertise which is Water Management uh
Dams and water have been in the spotlight of today’s discussion so far and also of the coverage of environmental damage uh brought by the War uh in Ukraine so I I would like um to ask you to explain the particular impact on marine ecosystems uh that this war has
Brought thank you Sasha and and good evening everyone it is uh my great great honor and pleasure to be here today and uh I want to start by saying that Russia’s war of aggression in Ukraine is raising a huge amount of concern compassion and sadness in my home
Country Finland also due to our history and the second world war where we faced somewhat similar situation with the Soviet Union so our thoughts are with Ukraine really every day and and and we will stand by Ukraine whatever it will take but coming to kovka and which is
One of the worst first really and and water water pollution in general so of course kovka stands as as the most significant single event in in maybe in in the whole uh sort of environmental history of of fullscale War it is a very far-reaching environmental disaster and
As you said it goes goes well Beyond Ukraine’s borders and and it has been even called the worst environmental disaster in Ukraine since Chernobyl M so uh that tells a lot um so with the bridge of the dam hundreds of square kilometers of of um uh land were flooded
And thousands of square kilometers Upstream were desicated uh those were reservoirs and wetlands uh which which were underwater before and and um there was also a damage Upstream but Downstream uh it it was maybe the worst because this High Velocity floods they literally washed away entire uh biotypes and plants and
Animals and and for example tens of thousands of birds and wild animals were impacted or perished by the bridge of the dam and it it had a a devastating impact from 75 International Ally recognized U protected areas and and and as Anna Anna already told that there
Were also storages of chemicals in the flood zone and and and this that so the release of chemical pollutants which included for example machine oil and liquid fertilizers and and all of these chemicals together with huge nutrient and suspended solids load which means all the particulates that were forc
Flushed from land they all ended in in in the Black Sea which Ukraine’s shares with five other riparian countries so uh and and there as as we heard the high pollution load has has significantly impacted water quality but in addition to kovka which is of course the most well-known uh
Event every single Russian missile attack hitting for example chemical or mining Industries where there is a lot in Ukraine it’s a very industrialized country or mining waste reservoirs many exist in in in in Ukraine large Farms or or or waste and waste of facilities they all Impact uh Ukrainian water courses
And also the the movement because people uh have been internally displaced they were forced to move from the Eastern parts of of Ukraine to other places where they were too close to the front line and when these people move to say Western EUR um Ukrainian cities uh waste
And Wastewater uh systems be become overloaded in those cities and this is again causing pollution which then ends up in water courses and these water courses are interconnected not only with the Black Sea but with with like many major European water bodies and and for example L um L region uh the pollutants
From there what they flow all the way to the Baltic Sea which is already very overburdened by nutrients and chemicals so in that sense we’re all victims of of Russia’s crimes even even on the finished shores of the Baltic Sea we feel the impact thank you so much uh maruka and
Uh I can confirm that in laiv there is no such concept as tap water you can only drink bottled water because the water is so polluted unfortunately and um have uh really clarified for us the international impact of of the destruction of dams and pollution of water in Ukraine I’m really
Curious about the international response could you tell us a bit more about that how has the International Community reacted to this well um yeah um Ukraine uh turned to The Finnish government the Ukrainian government a little over one year ago and asking for help in in uh
Sort of gathering evidence of these war crimes including also water pollution and and uh not only Finland but also several other countries and the European Union are now helping Ukraine in this evidence Gathering it because it of course will be decisive uh how what methods and and and how reliable this
Data is because it has to hold P up in international Court one day to be to so that they can use it so it’s a very important thing to support uh Ukraine Ukraine in this also this scientific and methodological issues because unfortunately now some of the methods
That are used in in Ukraine are based on the Soviet yeah Soviet calculation systems which are not really up to Modern standards thank you and thank you for throwing this bridge to George so we have been talking about the documentation of these crimes and now um
It is uh time to uh talk about ecosite because uh um the damage to the environment in Ukraine has been branded as such and uh JoJo you are the CEO co-founder of stop Eide International there is literally no better person in the world who could explain to us what
Ecosite is and what the case of Ukraine does to advance the recognition of wide as the international crime in the international criminal court thank you so much um yeah I our organization is is global and we’re an advocacy organization and we have this one very specific goal which is the
Criminalization of the worst harms to Nature and that’s what we mean when we talk about ecos side and that that term now is becoming much more you know sort of currency in in the media you know in in academic legal discussion and of course in in politics as well um to
Describe the worst harms um and just to give a very sort of brief rationale as to why this is important um you know there is plenty of environmental regulation and law around the world um but what we have have seen very clearly you know over recent decades as this
Body of law has grown up is that it still it has it it still doesn’t have the the kind of enforceability it doesn’t it’s it’s not adequate to the task of the levels of Destruction that we are seeing and of course the environmental destruction in Ukraine so during in the
Context of armed conflict is one of the key um examples of where this happens but it does of course also happen during peace time and in in many parts of the world doesn’t require a conflict to happen um but what we’re seeing is that the enforc the enforceability is low the
Monitoring is low people don’t follow um those regulations and what we would say this speaks to is a very profound cultural issue um which is that our sort of global economic system has grown up um you know around a sense of separation from and and in a sense alienation from
Um the very ecosystems that support life and that support us um and of course they’ve grown up over centuries and perhaps you know where those ideas originated you know that kind of sort of deep dualism goes way back um you know centuries old um and you know we see it
In the the Catholic Church the spirit versus the body we see it also in the Enlightenment with reason versus emotion with reason versus nature and so on and and so what we’re seeing is a situation where humankind is seen as as able to dispose of nature as we please um and to
Treat nature as an infinite Bank of resources of course we now know we all know we all know intellectually that that is not the case but cultural change takes a lot more time than the intellectual realization so we already have this system in place and if there’s
One area where this can be um kind of intervened with in a positive way it is law um and criminal law in particular has a a kind of a moral power that you know that you administrative or regulatory law doesn’t um there’s no real moral stigma attached to breach of
Regulation but when you talk about a serious crime then you start potentially influencing the way we think about uh damage to Nature and when we look at uh damage and armed conflict in particular what although we all know that nature suffers greatly during during war almost as a sort of automatic collateral um
Effect of of of severe military action it is still conceived of as collateral rather than as a primary form of harm and we’ve you know we’ve been seeing in Ukraine the the weaponization of that harm whereas there’s actually a deliberate use of the damage to the environment but I think what perhaps is
Really important to think about here is that environmental damage has a different kind of scope to the immediate harm to humans and to infrastructure you know upon which we understandably Focus first why would we not you know harm to people harm to actually the elements that keep our society going on a daily
Basis but with the environmental harm we’re often seeing um a sort of geographical scope as we’ve just been hearing a geographical scope that goes beyond the area of the conflict but also a temporal scope that goes beyond you know a given time of conflict as as
We’ve heard you know there will be areas of Ukraine that will never be restored to to how they would have been before um you know there there’s also I think one of the senses that I’ve had from The Amazing conversations we’ve had with with with um ukrainians and we’ve been
Dealing also with the the prosecutor’s office in Ukraine over time as well um is that actually the soil of Ukraine is a treasure you know it it’s it’s it’s a really deep part of what Ukraine is and does in terms of it you know culture and
The soul of the country so there are these you know these several areas where we can see that environmental harm is absolutely fundamental and interestingly Ukraine is one of the few countries that actually does have some provision in its domestic law to deal with easide and ironically um it’s actually some of the
Ex Soviet countries that do have this in their in their penal codes because of the the the sort of timing of the breakup of the Soviet Union and the evolution of individual penal codes and the time of the drafting interestingly of the Rome statute where there was originally a clause that could have
Covered ecocide um those things coincide and so we see that happening and there are I know there are some cases beginning to be taken in Ukraine with Ukrainian law um but I think one of the things that is really important to um to of clock here and it’s actually quite
Difficult for us I have to admit it’s quite difficult for us as an organization because the worse that things the worse incidents that happen in the world the more people listen to what we’re saying about how important it is that we set these outer parameters so for example when this awful destruction
Of the K kov kadam happened last June you know we sort of sit in this place of oh my God this is absolutely horrific and you know Europe’s reeling with the scale of This Disaster and at the same same time our phones are ringing you know everything’s beeping going can you
Tell us about ecocide what’s all this about ecocide and we’re like wow people are people are really listening now and so there’s this extraordinary sort of weird Bittersweet kind of edge that we sit on with with with with this with this topic but Ukraine has been so
Important in this and I’ll finish with this but um you know zalinsky has talked about ecocide on a number of occasions and particularly in relation to the destruction of the dam um and actually the word itself has great power um and so you know having this topic come into
The media and be be spoken of and be used um you know by a head of state about a very live immediate situation is I me it’s tragically human but we pay attention when things are right in front of us um and so it’s made a huge difference to the conversation um and
Really sort of brought to the for the inadequacy of the you know the current legal provision and Ukraine’s been such a support in in in kind of moving that forward both in the EU at the Council of Europe um and and you generally in terms of the global discussion thank you it’s really
Good to hear that um the tragic disaster caused by uh Russia that happened in Ukraine last year uh has actually helped to draw attention to this legal debate on EOS side I’m just wondering um where do we stand now legally uh has the president been said
Uh does K kovka have a chck chance of becoming that legal precedent that will allow us to Define ecosite for the international criminal court I think it’s made a very concrete difference actually um and just in in in terms of very very briefly the the kind of key
Recent Milestones I mean um the interestingly the discussion was brought back onto the Diplomatic stage by another victim country but this time of climate and that’s vanatu the Pacific Island state of vanatu um who called on the international criminal courts memb states to consider adding ecocide that
Was in 2019 in 2021 a definition of easide was proposed into into the World by a a panel convened by our foundation um and that definition has catalyzed conversations all all across the globe what we have seen recently and this was very I think particularly driven by the
Ukraine situation and the kova situation is that the EU and actually the the final um vote on this was this week with the European Council the EU has now um adopted a revised environmental crimes directive that includes um a new what they’re calling a qualified offense which effectively addresses conduct that
They’re calling comparable to EOS side so it’s it’s not in a sense the fully fledged Eide that we would perhaps Advocate at the international criminal court but it’s a very big step in the right direction in a sense it’s easide and all but name and it covers a very
Wide range of crimes and and creates a really serious aggravating factor that lifts it into more more severe penalties and and and more seriousness and that brings me back to my original point about the cultural thing which is that what’s so important here is the fact that that we currently don’t take
Environmental destruction seriously enough um and so alongside this very precise criminal um aim if you like criminalizing ecocide there’s this kind of cultural or moral aim of creating a taboo around the mass destruction of nature um and I think that the the coov incident had although in a sense it
Happened partway through those negotiations I think it made a huge difference on how those member states how seriously they took that that uh that text well it’s uh really reassuring to hear that we are getting closer to actually um holding ourselves um accountable for for the crimes we commit
Against nature um from Justice to recovery uh I’m now turning to B uh while this existential fight in Ukraine keeps going on uh we keep fighting we are also keep recovering from the consequences of the fight this recovery is not postponed into the indefinite future it’s actually already
Happening because people keep leing in the country that is keep being bombed every night uh and at NE Eco Ukraine you a pioneering uh circular economy methodologies so basically correct me if I’m wrong you’re uh using uh waste and recycling it into build-in materials
Could you tell us a bit more uh how that works and probably um you encounter some challenges so I invite you to share your struggles thank you for the question um it’s a it’s a large question um I could easily speak a couple of hours on that
But I think that not purpose um we decided uh at NE Echo to move rather early uh to Ukraine so in May 22 we decided to establish Neo Eco Ukraine um because we believed that um circular economy could contribute to mitigate the impact uh of of the war crimes that you spoke already
Before uh because we believe that when we speak about environmental damage and everything we we typically speak about the primary source of damage which is perhaps War rebel but but how you are going to deal with it uh has a massive effect to the Future Generations we talk
About justice but it’s also while waiting for that Justice uh to how to minimize that impact and how to make um the living conditions for Ukraine and ukrainians um suitable and and as good as possible uh in this situation so we decided to move quite early um we are a
Commercial company so we are in a completely different setting um to the way that we want to demonstrate um how the situation can be something uh useful um by demonstrating that how to build Ukraine better which is becoming a slogan a little bit how you do it in
Practical so we decided um very early to deal with a city north of Kiev which is called hostel next to the airport 24th of uh February the key Target uh to take KF City and around that airport there are a couple of um multi store buildings that are completely destroyed ,000 tons
Of rubble um and if we would not interfere what would have happened with that Rubble just brought to the landfill in the best case and in the worst case in the field in the forest um that waste is containing hazardous waste um so that means that we would
Displace a problem from A to B and most probably make the problem on location B more complicated to deal with for future Generations um for us it was a big challenge because War Rubble of course is something unusual for a company in circular economy because typically when
You go to Circular economy you go to an existing building you strip it by different materials and then only the naked body you can deconstruct so there’s a whole methodology that that exists within our company uh for many years but warble is still something new unfortunately um so we had to develop a
New methodology to say okay how can we recycle reuse that Rubble in the most economical way respecting EU legislation respecting of course Ukrainian legislation and using equipment which is there because of course there are people saying yes we want to clean rubble and we are going to build a factory of 10
Million 20 million or whatever that might happen perhaps in 3 years 5 years 10 years I don’t know when but we need now an action to to to mitigate that so we started with that and I always use use a metaphor it’s like jumping from an airplane with a parachute that you need
To create while you are jumped already out of the airplane sounds very familiar yeah so so we we developed the whole methodology but at the end of the story of Hosto we were able to reuse and recycle 90% of the material so for us it was a surprising High number because I
Think that we would have been satisfied with 75 more or less um but but we arrived to the high number um because we we found in Ukraine a quite Rich ecosystem of individuals companies people thinking along with us um who filled in parts of puzzle to come to
That high number so it’s not us which are the heroes it’s it’s an assembly of people that are in Ukraine quite knowledgeable about environment I don’t say the whole Ukraine but but there are individuals organizations quite knowledgeable about um environmental things and at the end this 90% um went
Mainly to making new concrete so it’s not just for the road construction which is a generally use uh for Rubble but we were able to upgrade it to the highest standard of construction materials by which we are allowed to construct a Five Star Building or to build a bridge with
It so so it’s a wonderful story um that we started with of course then down the road and and going onwards um we also integrated social sustainability means now we use uh or we work together with War veterans u in cleaning this Rubble in processing this warble because we
Believe that and and now the projects they are more in the South around Mol region where um the devastation is significant higher than in Kev region um Kiev region of course we we we see the the visuals of bua irpan on on the the physical destruction but in the South
Destruction is just significant higher we are talking about Villages settlements where 80 90% is destroyed so you cannot just do some plaster works and everything um and in those areas there are War veterans that that are suffering from traumatic psychological traumas and we integrate them in our projects now because we
Believe that’s the only way to rebuild that Community too because otherwise we will leave these people behind and then once Ukraine is rebuilt we say oh we have 1 million people that have psychological problems so we integrate that and we did now we finished the third project uh in in mikolay we are
Now at a rate surprisingly 96% so so it becomes let’s say um an element but but to come back to the environmental aspect um that this build better Ukraine should be more than a slogan but but should be really a part of of policy and it’s uh very difficult
For policy makers to to make it very specific how as a policy maker in Ukraine world Bank European Union how we can make it specific and I want to give one example is that if we would use if we would to reconstruct Ukraine with the same type of concrete that we use
Standardly that would lead to a carbon emission additionally to the planet that is equivalent of one year of France CO2 emission so that is significant to global warming that means on a global level about 0.5 to 0.6% only for the concrete 0.5 0.6% of the CO2 emissions worldwide so
It’s important also and I think that that’s the the great challenge but also the the the the reason why we are in there as a company in Ukraine only Innovation only new technologies will be able to solve the problem M and I think Ukraine is is for us as Neo EO a living
Laboratory where hands on we on the scale that we never be able to do in France or another country um and we we come across with a lot of brilliant people with a lot of brilliant ideas in Ukraine uh we should give them the means the methodology the
Trust um and we see um these things happening and we we signed for example as a company on the 10th of January with the city of K uh a memor of understanding it’s a city which stores 11.5 billion tons of Industrial Waste is generating each year 100 million tons of
Industrial Waste but about 90% of that waste can be used for the Reconstruction of Ukraine so we don’t need to excavate a lot of material from the subsoil of Ukraine to reconstruct Ukraine why not converting that Industrial Waste we tested the materials according to EU standards and they are fulfilling EU
Standards but of course it’s it’s a whole uh shift change to not look to waste as a problem but to look waste as a source of inspiration a source of way of reconstructing and I believe if we will sit here together hopefully in 10 15 years uh together again that that we
Look back to the situation that you said that thanks to this there was a lot of innovation that came out of it from which European Union other countries will get inspiration will get copy of technology and I’m sure what we will do as neoo together with a lot of other
Companies will become a standard of European Union so I think that also people what we see sometimes as new Echo that people are coming from other countries than Ukraine with the idea we should teach the ukrainians how to do and I think that’s a wrong um starting
Point it is like what is the problem how can we help to solve the problem and how can we jointly see what you have as assets there are lot of Assets in Ukraine a lot of knowledgeable people a lot of creative people um and and I
Believe that this symbios of of of what we know from the past in France and other countries and what we learn in Ukraine will have a spillover effect also worldwide and and that’s really um the message that I want to convey also this evening is that yes there is
Ecosite um but we can do actions to mitigate it we should allow Innovation we should also um change policy legal POS policy legal Frameworks to allow that Innovation and not um how to say go with the flow of of of big industrial groups that are lobbying for products
That are polluting a lot that are um so I I discussed on on concrete that’s one example another example is for example insulation materials uh Ukraine is is a grain basket of the world um but that industry is generating a lot of Agro waste as well but that Agro waste can be
Perfectly used uh for insulating buildings for um reconstruction also of Ukraine we have a pilot project in ch with funded by the European Union to demonstrate how these old Soviet buildings can be converted now during the war into uh well insulated buildings using the waste of the Agro industry so
Instead of just burning that waste which is the general Practice in Ukraine for that waste is to using for insulating right now um you ask me in the question what is the challenge mhm I would say the challenge is is mainly lobbying of of Bigg conglomerates which has their
Products their way of dealing with with things both in Ukraine and both abroad which of course are not um well willing to give up their profitability or their way of doing business um and and they of course they have an audience in in in different bodies like like the Ukrainian
Government in the the Rada the parliament in the European Union as well they have a bigger hearing a bigger budget a bigger capability of marketing and communicating and of course when you’re coming in as Echo as a Pioneer perhaps with the IDS you are an easy target um and um during the whole
Process uh we came across to two very difficult periods by which we are attacked by International organizations we are attacked by local organizations by government and everything because of the pioneering aspect that we do and people say well this is not a way to reconstruct Ukraine and and that’s a big
Challenge to convince people okay yes you you have perhaps been worked together with this big conglomerates in in Ukraine of construction industry and everything but be open-minded and everything and I would say it’s not necessarily the Ukraine is as an individual because there we get a lot of
Support but it’s more on on on the the the organization that is behind the economical machine that um not only in Ukraine we have the same problem when in other countries of course but especially in Ukraine it should be um evolving much faster uh in order to say okay there are
New methodologies we need to give them a chance let’s give them a pilot authorization to do pilot projects and then evaluate um and not say well you first need to test your material for 10 years and only then perhaps we will so so there is a lot of aspects in it but I
Would say generally speaking um Ukrainian authorities um are more and more um adopting legislation that allows to to experiment uh in the positive sense of word with new methodologies which might Inspire future EU legislation even I say that’s quite hopeful yeah so so I I think that uh the
Key challenge is to convince people on a day-to-day basis mainly in in in in organizations that defend economical interests um but uh I I’m as Neo EO I can only say that we are thankful and grateful that we can be part of the Journey of reconstruction um of course we hope that
We would never have to go to Ukraine for that reason um but I think now now the situation is there let’s make the best out of it and and let’s try to minimize the impact of that environmental consequences of that Russian aggression um because when it will be paid back I
Think we cannot wait till that time to reconstruct Ukraine so let’s do it now the best way and but all together uh forward Ukraine the land of opportunities join us on this journey of recovery and regeneration and it will pay back um I I have a thousand questions but I’m also conscious that
Our audience uh wants to join the discussion so I will collect two three questions at a time uh there is a gentleman at the back who whose hand was first yes um hi um I my question is with regards to the EOS side aspect which um Africa
As a continent India as a country and many other countries surrounding it have been a victim of you know this Mass deforestation um and then in the last few years because my interest is in supply chain so I like to look at where all these products come from and always
End up in some mine in some country somewhere the issue that we’ve suffered in India and Africa has been that yes there is that fossil fuels aspect but then this green transition and there’s this misbelief that the green transition is fossil fuel free but fossil fuels still need to be burned for
The whole life cycle for extracting these resources so my question is when I was looking at the mineral resources for Ukraine all the mineral resources bar the Timber and maybe some other extractives other materials they’re all fundamental for the green New Deal so my question is and this is something I
Would never want and I don’t want it for Ukraine I don’t want it for India or even Africa or even Congo my question is this path to going green and the devastation for that has happened for Congo for 30 years people in Africa have been saying hold on our
Countries are being devastated so your green New Deal can progress for the green New Deal to progress and get resources from other countries people have to decide do we want progress for Ukraine to rebuild and reforest that country or do we want to go down the Green Path
And it’s going to be a nefarious path where we are going to have to end up having to Deforest and strip mine the whole country and with regards to the rebuilding of the country I’d just like to drop this in way before Russia invaded Ukraine Black Rock the largest
Hedge fund had already bagged the multi-trillion dollar contract for rebuilding Ukraine that’s just something run to think about why would that have happened but my question is to go green is Ukraine going to be another country that’s going to be in the basket for strip mining and deforesting so we can
Go green thank you thank you for your question uh please um yes my my question is regarding the water pollution that is happening um as some of the global uh uh leaders are very much looking forward to support Ukraine can there not be decentralized wastewater treatment systems supplied to
Ukrainians there so that or portable toilets so that they can avoid the huge loads that is going into the existing SE treatment works as you mentioned so that decentralized way of treatment will is Will Will lessen the impact of pollution there also you mentioned that there is
No such credible data available how much amount of pollution is happening so can the ukrainians who are here in UK or in any other European countries be trained in the test water quality testing waste water quality testing send them back get the data let them return back and the
New framework can be done so that uh they can lessen the impact so some intelligence is required this is called water intelligence some skill needs to be trained and also there is Earth observation satellites which is in the testing phase I think some of the universities in Australia who I know are
Looking forward to test it so why not utilize this an opportunity thank you uh I’ll direct the first question to Anna uh the green deal and deforestation and the dangersous embedded in this deal uh how you as the expert in uh sustainable reconstruction would respond to
That about being an expert you know it’s always like uh now you have to be experts in everything sometimes I feel um it’s a it’s a good question mean from the perspective of that yeah indeed Ukraine has lots of resources and uh of course even being agriculture country
You know how much Ukraine is exporting abroad um I think we are conscious that we don’t want to be um also the the raw material exporter especially when we are thinking not just about rebuilding buildings or infrastructure we we have to think about rebuilding the whole economy uh because Russia is not just
Targeting you know people or or or buildings they’re also they want to make sure that Ukrainian economy collapses that’s why they also Target Energy System right it’s all it’s all connected uh so as um our big uh industrial capacities well think of marup that were destroyed so we have to
Rethink actually what our economy would be looking like and I think it makes total sense that UK that is now moving toward the EU it’s interesting to say it in the UK well we are we are I mean um we have to be looking for ways uh to actually be doing things together
Uh and I think Bar’s examples were also great that Ukraine should indeed not be seen as a resource base but actually a partner a future member State uh with production not just of raw materials but actually been up in in the value chains right and this is the same that African
Countries are raising same kind of issues we don’t want to be just producing ra materials shipping them abroad we want to be actually producing equipment appliances and so on um and and and have more jobs so I think this is what we’re discussing and and if you hear uh our government saying Ukraine
Wants to be the green Hub of Europe I think it’s somewhere there around the lines um and also I just just want to say one word because there was about water and decentralization and I think this is uh the resilience um we we have
To be resilient now a lot uh so when we talk about building back better we building now and so on it’s a lot about decentralizing actually everything to the extent possible so because we know that a thermal power plant can be shelled a Hydro Dam you know can be
Shelled but if you’re talking if you take lots of renewable installations all over the place Place uh with with uh you know batteries uh in the school here and there with a small production of biog gas and so on you cannot that easily you know actually kill in the system so I
Would totally agree with it it’s is a very very good approach and uh and we are still thinking about you know uh and Bart said it very well you know kind of seen I I I noted it because uh seen waste as a source of inspiration it’s
Easy to say but hard to do in your mind right you have to actually change the mindset so we are kind of think slowly but surely trying trying to understand how to actually make it work um hopefully it will happen quicker than later but yeah thank you Anna and I wonder if maruka
Has something to add to this question of decentralized treatment of water actually also this deforestation and and and and uh mining question because I think it’s a very good question and uh I come from the European Commission it’s uh I’m I’m happy to be saying that
Something good comes out of out of the European Union and and you know that we are um uh I think it’s a great opportunity for Ukraine because they Ukraine is entering one of the most responsible environmental governance systems on this planet let me tell as a
Finn we we went to EU in 1995 and although we are a nud country without Soviet Legacy I mean it has impacted our environment in so many ways so it’s going to be a huge change but even before that uh uh you know EU has also regulations um upcoming regulations also
On on different forestations the so-called eodr uh regulation because we don’t want to be importing things from uh third countries which are not sustainably produced so even before Ukraine becomes a member of the European Union and adopts the EU legislation UDR will apply to Ukraine and it’s very very important
Because before the war 40% of Ukrainian uh Timber which was exported to to the European Union was illegally cut or or sold so it’s it’s uh there is some some help coming then the see uh this critical raw materials issue and the whole green transition issue it’s so
Complicated and it’s uh I’m really I have to say that I’m really concerned and not only about Ukraine I’m also concerned about Finland we have I mean in the northern Finland in the Eastern Finland we have quite some uh deposits of of of of of these rare uh earth
Metals and materials which are needed for the green transition and already now we have a huge conflict conflict up north where we have the only Aboriginal population of Europe which is the Sami people and it’s the same for Sweden and Norway I mean these people are so uh
Concerned and for a good reason so it’s um I don’t have a good answer for you but I’m just saying that you are flagging a very important thing and this will also be important for Ukraine because critical raw materials are one of the issues which have spee especially
Been raised as as the driving economic forces of Ukraine’s recovery so yeah and and concerning this this water water question I I fully agree with with what Anna said I think we are going to need different kinds of solutions also what is good with the centralized waste with
Treatment plans is that we can put a lot of very effective uh technology there and then uh in big cities you know for example we can reduce a lot of of of of pollutants uh coming to water courses so there we really should have the top of
Top notch Technologies in use but then you know especially in Ukraine where you have a lot of smaller Villages and and smaller places of course we are going to need also these small scale small scale um Solutions and for for for the treatment so I think it’s not it’s it’s
It’s we need both it’s a mix yeah it’s a mix we need both of them yeah yeah what about water sorry uh we will have to ask the next person uh please make your question really short gentleman at the back and I want to hear from a lady
Please uh be brave radical courage is the theme of the year is it working um Rich live in a world where diplomats could you speak we live in a world of diplomats and I used to be one um and leaders who are playing chess with the
World they see the world as a game of chess they are quite happy to sacrifice the porn of something in Ukraine for the sake microphone please just need so my question is how do you get these people to wake up and actually do something now because we run
The risk of this being a very interesting academic exercise and I’m my background is about taking action and we have been far too diplomatic with things so I want to know how do we get these people to act thank you for your question uh and another one from the
Audience do yeah of course me that Sasha you wanted a lady so I thought I better put my I’m very grateful um so Tammy Evans I’m a a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council so my question um perhaps is more to to Jojo uh so uh Prosecuting ecos side in
Ukraine it’s not yet an international crime uh and it’s not specifically um a crime in a crime in that sense in Ukrainian law or in Russian law so what are the steps to um being able to prosecute EOS side um in Ukraine when we when we get to that stage thank you very
Much should take that we we should okay please the last question um yeah my question is about making a link between Russian oil exports and the cost of reconstruction and environmental damage what seems to me from the outside as the fairest and most practical solution to that is to
Close some of the loopholes which allow third countries to profit from basically laundering Russian oil and my question is is there any discussion about creating a a peace and reconstruction Fund in which countries that actually do that loan drain have a general import Duty imposed on their goods that pay towards that fund
Which acts as a disincentive for Russia it can be long-term Finance if that was legally put into the Constitutions or the law of the countries question Russia would know that every missile that was dropped on Ukraine would have to be paid for over X number of years and why isn’t
That robust Financial tie that can both be a economic disincentive to waray reconstruction and the environmental damage being asked more more directly and assertively doesn’t need to be globally agreed doesn’t need to be passed by the United Nations why don’t we take action in that pragmatic way I
Think the last question Rhymes really well with the first one exactly what I was to say how do we actually make people act accordingly with these convictions uh who would like to sorry about that uh who would like to answer answer this questiony to say and is inter just I
Also feel like when the gentleman there was saying why don’t we do this I was think well ask the guy who spoke first you know but uh yeah I mean interestingly with I think with the Diplomatic action I mean what I mean again I’m going to speak from the
Position of a kind of a success story in that in that way because the the the easide um initiative is moving very fast at the Diplomatic level and I’d say that one of the key reasons for that and it may be a partial answer to your question
Question is that it’s so precise and so specific that it doesn’t encounter lots of resistance so um you know we we tend to steer clear of any kind of political pron you know sort of pronouncements or or sides side taking because we’re just trying to go for this one thing
Criminalize the worst harms um and in fact even in the case of Ukraine we only joined the conversation when ecosite itself became part of the topic so there’s a way and and actually interestingly we’re finding that we’re actually getting access to and conversations with and momentum you know
At quite a high level diplomatically so that’s one thing I would respond to that with and just briefly to respond to the lady there um obviously there’s some provision in the Ukraine and and indeed in Russian actually um law and there and that that is being followed at present
Um there are some cases being being prepared currently in Ukraine um of course once this becomes an international crime and I think you know we we’re now kind of seeing a a direction of travel legally that is that is going that way so it is just a matter
Of time of course there’s an issue with retroactivity it’s not like you can then suddenly go back and say right you did this in Ukraine at X time and therefore we’re going to prosecute you because that’s just not the way that law Works um but this I would I would actually
Just like to highlight what’s been so impressive to me around how Ukraine has addressed this because I feel like there’s a real political generosity in how Ukraine has been approaching sort of pushing this idea of a standalone crime of ecocide because obviously they know that that you’re not going to be able to
Go backwards so this is actually in a way for me it feels like Ukraine is saying you know not just you know with victims you’ve got to help us out but they’re actually saying we don’t want to see anyone suffer the way we’ve suffered you know we want to see this put in
Place so that there’s some justiciability that currently isn’t there that will then actually be useful for the you know for the whole world in the future and I think that’s actually super super important so yeah thank you uh we have time for one last question so to evade Uh Russian oil
Sanctions they’ve apparently created a gray Fleet uh allegedly using very old vessels that don’t comply to International standards Now by enabling that we’re enabling their war machine to keep going we’re enabling the funds to supp apply that are we also enabling a potential ecological Time Bomb M uh who would like to cover
Thata yeah as a I can just say that yes yes else can you say it’s nice to be an agreement yeah and and and that’s one of the after the full scale War started uh there were many sort of concerns we had uh with Russian environmental policies
Chang in not least what they are going to do with their Wastewater management and it all comes to the Baltic Sea but but this was for sure one of the the the greatest worries and now it has materialized and you know that uh that the Baltic Sea is is very shallow it’s
Very Rocky it’s very difficult to navigate we also have this very difficult winter navigation conditions because it’s ice covered so yeah and and with these kinds of ships it’s it’s just a matter of time when something will happen so it’s really a good point to raise thank you um than yes please Anna
I just I just want to mention because I feel like it should be mentioned uh it was also connected to sanctions and and and who’s going to be paying and how to rebuild Ukraine I think Russia has to pay to reild Ukraine right this is this
Is correct not the not the all of the world countries in the world this is why when you hear using Frozen Russian assets uh we have to just say say this is possible I think I I’ll not be talking a lot about it but there’s a lot
Already written about that that this is Justice this is like it should we should make it work not just the percentage of the money that is kept somewhere you know we have to actually have it working because we are talking about hundreds of billions and I mentioned you how much it
Would cost to rebuild Ukraine it’s kind of almost the same sums and also the ray of the ray of light sorry needed isn’t that because there’s been a lot of lawyers there were already presidents in the world so this is I think we have to be again I would be going into detail
Just remember this Russian frozen assets and I just want to give you the ray of light because I thought I should mention that we were talking about kovam a lot today and uh our wonderful uh environmentalists U environmental Experts of Ukraine they went to see how the dam looks like in Autumn last
Year and um so the the reservoir where where the uh the dam and the reservoir where there was lots of water right everybody was saying first all the government officials there would be a desert there it would be nothing everything would die what uh what we saw
Actually is that there is willow trees 3 m High growing there was a huge Forest one of the largest forests of the south of Ukraine growing instead of this Reservoir the nature is coming back and it’s the the nature that used to be there for centuries before it was built
Because the kov kadam was built by the Soviets to tame the nature so one of the best Ukrainian environmental experts Alexi vuk he says that if Ukraine and I I think I think this is just really like the powerful phrase that I just want to say he says
If Ukraine decides to rebuild the dam this will be an echoside mhm because it’s so big and you would basically again destroy what actually should be there so this is why when we’re talking about rebuilding Ukraine we have to be rethinking Ukraine we have to be thinking how we actually have to
Be living together with the nature this is why we have today’s conversation too thank you so much this yeah it’s a positive note to end on um let’s remember that nature will always find the way if we leave it alone and defeat those who abuse it um thank you to our
Fantastic speakers thank you to our amazing audience for all your intelligent questions and your engagement uh thank you to all our partners for supporting us beautifully as the Ukrainian Institute London we couldn’t be happier to collaborate with all of you and if you allow me I would
Like to finish uh with a poem uh I actually have to stand up to read it um it was my absolute honor to publish it in the London Ukrainian review it belongs to Kina mikal Ukrainian poet who after one of the bombings of leiv came
To the site of bombing to help and uh paid attention to the trees that were standing around the actual um uh place of the attack and those trees were standing there naked without their leaves because the leaves were torn off by a blast wave um I will read her poem
Poem in Ukrainian and then in English in the translation of Han holy ho for and now in English thanks to Han Le for her beautiful translation Witnesses of war crimes in this land even trees bear witness please Hug Me Gently asks the ash tree on the side of the road now
Even gentleness hurt s wounds ache for a long time like Fallen nuts green as July in which an abys yawned and you can’t Bridget Whispers the walnut tree Stark naked I’m deaf says The Acacia it stands on tiptoe motionless watching for Swifts it sees them but cannot
Hear I have third degree burns moans the fur tree the world around me breathes Heat like the fiery Mo of the dragon that devours me and I I’m too unscathed among you why says the dogwood tree softly drooping its leaves inwardly withered by a survivor’s guilt the dust swirls up it shrouds the
Salt of their testimony in the Billows of Silence who will listen to these trees who will call them as Witnesses in court thank you for being with us tonight uh let’s keep listening let’s give voice to the spe speechless victims of crimes against nature let’s make sure that the
Perpetrators are held accountable thank you for