Dr. Joseph Loconte, Presidential Scholar in Residence at New College of Florida, joined Rep. Crenshaw to trace the origins of Western Civilization and America’s founding values, from Greek and Roman cultures to the influence of Judaism, Christianity, and the Enlightenment. And they examine the deep resentment against Western Civilization among the far left and increasingly among populists on the right.
Joseph Loconte, PhD, is a Presidential Scholar in Residence at New College of Florida, Senior Fellow at the Institute on Religion and Democracy, and the C.S. Lewis Scholar for Public Life at Grove City College. He is the author of the New York Times bestseller “A Hobbit, a Wardrobe, and a Great War: How J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis Rediscovered Faith, Friendship, and Heroism in the Cataclysm”. Follow him on Twitter at @JosephLoconte.
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We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are creative as a member of Congress I get to have a lot of really interesting people in the office experts on what they’re talking about this is the podcast for insights into the issues China biot terrorism Medicare for all
Indepth discussions breaking it down into simple terms we hold we hold we hold these truths we hold these truths with Dan kensaw landed welcome back everybody today I want to have a great conversation about Western Civilization we have quite the guest to do just that we’re joined by Joseph
Lante and I want to have this conversation because we’ve seen uh in recent history as many universities are ditching teaching western civilization in favor of other worthless woke topics like gender studies and whatnot um and there’s even some on the right-wing populace side that I think question America’s founding principles and um
Question what conservatism is is is even about um just today there was uh well-known conservative commentators I’ll just say her name it’s Molly way claiming on social media that our own intelligence Community is actually more of a threat than Russia okay so look there’s there’s a lot of problems here
There’s a lot of emotion there’s a lot of claims um that are just devoid of evidence or just logic um and it’s I think it’s deeply rooted in uh an intense resentment that is spreading not just for our political institutions but our society at large this this idea that
American America itself is is corrupt um I definitely noticed that both political parties believe that America is just a worse place if the other guy is in charge and that didn’t always used to be the case with at least Republicans but it certainly seems to be the case now
Just based on what I hear um it’s a problem and I want to know if we can rescue ourselves from that deep cynicism and pessimism and uh I think looking to history and uh Western Civilization teachings might be helpful so Joseph thanks for for being on I’ll
Say a little bit about you before we start he’s a presidential scholar and Residence at new College of Florida and the CS Lewis scholar for public life at Grove City College I served as a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum he’s the author of The New York Times bestseller
A hobbit a wardrobe and a great War how J.R token and CS Lewis rediscovered Faith friendship and heroism in the cataclysm of 1914 to 1918 and um also worked uh at the associate as an associate professor of history at the Kings College in New York City and distinguished visiting professor at the
School of public policy at pepperd University um got a few other books you’re free to mention as as we talk but let’s just let’s just dive into it um you’ve also testified before Congress before um yes I have uh some some time ago uh I’m sure that was a a fun
Experience and uh you’ve also been an adviser to the White House on faith-based initiatives um under Bush it sounds like and right there a huge bio here so um appreciate you being on Joseph I mean Where Do We Begin I I kind of want to begin with a little bit of uh
Uh reminder of you know if if you had to give a give a course in western civilization and you know just a few minutes what are some of the big what are some of the big ideas that that people need to be aware of if somebody wanted you know in layman’s terms just
Describe to their friends look this is what I mean by Western Civilization what what would you say terrific and thank you I having me Congressman it’s an incredibly important conversation I think we’re going to have here what’s Western Civ go back to the Greeks and the Romans Greek and Roman culture that
Classical culture transformed by Judaism and Christianity the judeo-christian Outlook transformed Again by what you could argue the the the Revolutions in the 16th and 17th centuries the technological scientific revolutions political Revolutions in those centuries um and then geographically we’re talking more or less Europe of course the United States North America
Will throw in the Canadians gentle neighbors to the north but yeah that’s the idea this classical biblical tradition which has been profoundly influenced by the scientific and political Revolutions of the 17th and 18th century so what’s important about that for us right now what ideals institutions came out of Western s
Uniquely well things like government by uh consent of the government separation of powers uh political Freedom political equality uh religious Freedom all of these ideas really were unique to the Western uh the whole Western tradition and I think the danger we have right now is there’s such an Amnesia such an
Ignorance of the history such an ignorance of of that cultural inheritance Congressman that we don’t understand what it requires to preserve that to transmit it to pass it on there a thin line between civilization and barbarism right and we’re seeing that thin line just melt away of course in
Many of our urban areas where I live back in Washington DC especially so yeah there’s a there’s an amazing inheritance we have from the West with all of our problems with all of our difficulties with all the blacks the black spots uh in our record I get that I teach that
History I I understand the Dark Side of Western Civ I get it but boy the contribution to human dignity and human flourishing out of Western Civilization it’s remarkable and we got to hang on to yeah and so maybe we go into it in a little bit more detail so you named a
Few I think principles that that came out of um centuries thousands of years really of of History uh separation of powers uh this idea that the that every human is in is imbued with some kind of value um sort of a divine right to or natural rights you know life liberty
Property or life liberty The Pursuit of Happiness however you want to describe it um you know but but that all came I guess I think step by step and and you know one of my favorite observations uh Russell Kirk observation that you know we had all these great ideas from from
From throughout thousands of years of history from Jerusalem to Rome to Athens to London and they were just and and we finally wrote them down in Philadelphia all at once and and you know we can bash America all we want but it’s like it’s still the best place to be and we’ve had
A pretty remarkably stable constitutional framework um for being a young country it’s still the oldest constitution so you know what so if we if we if we phrase it like that I mean what what did we first get from Jerusalem and then and then and then
Athens and then Rome how would you how would you say we we learned our lessons over time yeah terrific and and I want to emphasize that point you just made Congressman learning the lessons just call me Dan please all right then sure Dan the uh the American Founders were so
Deliberate about the founding about the Constitution and they learned the lessons of history took to borrow from my friend Oz Guinness the great social thinker Oz Guinness um they they learned from history in order to Def to defy history Right Use the lessons of History to defy history meaning the natural
Drift of things is Decay deterioration degeneration right you got to push back so what do we get from the Greeks and the Romans and then onward just kind of you know headline version of this the amazing thing about the Greeks for all their problems was okay Power katos
Belongs to the people the deos they call it democa democracy government by consent you’re getting that idea of government by consent from the Greeks it will collapse into factions Mass mob democracy mobocracy is what we get instead of direct democracy becomes mobocracy and it all collapses the
Romans pick up on this idea though of government by consent and they and they found not a democracy but a republic a representative body the Senate they have Council sharing power separation of power you’re getting that in in ancient Rome but that idea of a republic not a
Democracy to borrow ideas from the Greeks they’re going to take it the next step but the other things that the Romans give us especially through Cicero is natural law you mentioned natural rights a minute ago you don’t get natural rights the rights we articulate in our Constitution and the Declaration
You don’t get that without natural law this idea that there’s a universal moral law unchangeable applies to everybody across the globe that goes back to cisero yeah and that’s kind of amazing articulating natural law right yeah it it is it’s funny I was just just reading up on on on a on a
Book that on cisero’s book uh uh how to how to run a government or how to run a state or forget the the exact title but um one of many writings and and he talks about this this yeah sort of the self-evident natural law which is of
Course what our Founders wrote in our Declaration of Independence about something that is self-evident what how did they I mean we have our own ways of describing a republic versus a democracy right it’s it’s popular on the conservative side to say we’re not a democracy we’re a republic and you know
But it’s important to flesh that out a little bit uh what we mean by that and and then how exactly did the Greeks govern um forgive my uh has been a while since my Western Civ that’s class I suppose so did they literally govern with a pure democracy so if there’s an
Issue at hand it was just a a vote to the public whereas you know in in and there’s whereas there’s representation in Rome in the Senate and you know you’re you’re you imbue that representative with decision-making Powers maybe let’s get into a little detail on what the differences were it’s
Worth doing it’s worth doing because the founders learned from this and it’s worth doing so what do you have an ancient Grace if you’re a citizen and not everybody’s a citizen obviously slaves aren’t citizen women don’t get rights of citizenship but if you’re born in Greece and you’re a male you’re a
Citizen and you’re expected to be you’re expected to show up at the Acropolis in aons and vote maybe 5,000 guys would do that out of a ation of maybe 50,000 or so in Athens 5,000 going to show up and they’re going to debate the issues of the day the domestic policy issues
Whether or not to go to war you’re going to cast your vote directly wow that’s Mass direct democracy and that is literally what they did direct and no one else in the world is doing it it’s an astonishing thing for some reason then the Greeks get it in their heads
We’re meant to live in Freedom not be ruled by dictators Kings and Pharaohs how they got that idea still a history you know from historian but there it was it took root there right Rome learns from that that turns into factions tribalism Athens goes against Sparta the
Pipian war it’s a big disaster it ends badly but then the Romans learn from that they say okay wait a minute we don’t want direct democracy but we want Democratic elements so what is the Senate in Rome not everybody’s a senator once again right but it is a lifetime
Appointment if you are a citizen uh you can become a senator so maybe there’s 300 400 500 or so Senators right there arguing Cicero giving his speeches on the floor of the Senate and that becomes really the most important political body in Rome you have these other guys
Alongside the two cils guys who are kind of sharing par like a president and a vice president but if they ignore the the advice of the Senate that’s going to be a problem so it’s a representative body for the rest of for the rest of the Roman Empire and and they rep
Represented regions of of the Roman Empire just as just as we represent regions in Congress or how does that how did how did they do it exactly they theoretically represent the entire Roman Republic before it became an Empire and that’s one of the tragedies of ancient
Rome it went from a republic with a real limitations on Power and then it just degenerates into autocracy tyranny Civil Wars an Empire and all the rest of it but at its peak the Golden Age of the Republic just as s i was realizing things to go in South about 100 years
Before s they always watching things happening they’ve got this representative body that holds in check the the worst impulses of of the populace make governing decisions no I’m just asking like how does a senator become a senator did did did they did they literally have an election um these
Are very basic questions but I don’t think we all know know if if you’re if you’re a Roman citizen and you’re of age which would have been I guess at that time 18 1920 right to whatever you you have you are eligible to be in the Senate and so you’ll be uh advised
By another Senator you’ll be invited in and you’ll you’ll serve a life a life term as a senator so you’ve got a technically a large number of Senators uh representing uh the Republic but only a certain number could be there at one time okay but but but but the people
Don’t there’s not there wasn’t like a democratic process to to elect the Senators as representatives and cor and so I wonder if I wonder if that was maybe one of the problems so they didn’t really take many Le too many lessons from the from the Democratic the pure
Democracy of Athens they they said that doesn’t work that’s too chaotic but maybe if we have a large maybe if a larger body of people deliberating it’ll be you know somewhat the will of the people and also more stable I guess the problem is is the will there was no will
Of the people and so it’s kind of it’s kind of not that surprising I guess that it evolved into sort of the dictatorship that it did um and I wonder if that’s that’s that’s obviously something our Founders looked looked at carefully yeah they did because you had
You had the problem of factions as you know Dan this becomes a huge Topic in The Federalist Papers Madison and the guys they realize this is the Mortal disease of self-government factions and it and it it will it will bring down the Roman Republic as it brought down uh the
Greek democracies as well different families powerful land uh families land owners fighting amongst themselves or pushing out the middle class The Artisans the Tradesmen who don’t have the voice they want to have so there are all kinds of competing interests of course in a in either a large Republic
Or an Empire how you going to manage those interests challenging absolutely challenging challenging especially if there’s there’s you know we we’ve built in a lot of sort of pressure release valves into our system that they simply didn’t have but we learned from but backing up though I mean so where how
About the theory you know where do Greeks get this idea that that regular people could have a say in something right where they get you know that’s that’s interesting and I think and and I and I I think like when Russell Kirk talks about Jerusalem he’s talking more
About what what did we get from Jerusalem I mean he’s talking about the birth of Christianity he’s talking about this and he’s he’s talking about a moral framework a judeo-christian moral framework which is important for for for Western Civilization because whether you’re an eist or non atheist you’re
Still abiding by what could be considered a judeo-christian moral framework right you The Ten Commandments make sense to you whether you believe in God or not um yes and and and the other you know interesting Theory I wrote a book on uh it’s called maybe the birth of individualism or something I can’t
Remember who wrote it but it was just pretty decent it was and it really it was probably too much detail so I never really got quite all the way through it but the but the basic lesson was the interesting thing about Christianity was it was the first time that every
Individual was given power over their own religion because if you you know you look to kind of the Old Testament St to old old um Jewish practices your access to God was through priests or Elders it was not through your own you know heart it wasn’t through your own prayer that
Was the interesting Revolution that Jesus you know brought to brought to the world and that that you you everybody gets to access God so it’s like the it’s the biggest um statement on equality in history and you know I wonder if I wonder if but did that really influence
The Greeks it’s I you know my history isn’t perfect on that because we’re talking about Greek history that predates Jesus so right so that can’t be where they got it from but it is but but at least it’s important for for our for our context and what we
Believe yeah yeah Jan and it’s hard it’s hard sometimes to know uh how the borrowing process politically speaking but borrowing um you could you’re absolutely right though when you say what what the Christian faith introduces into the bloodstream of the West is a universalism and a human equality that
Was simply not known in the ancient world period a universalism and and a and a human equality right and we were just talking about this in my class today actually my Western Civ class over here at new College this idea this message from Jesus for God a verse that
A lot a Bible verse a lot of people know for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life it’s an open invitation and in that culture in in Rome in the first
Century think about that a chunk of the population or slaves most people are not citizens don’t have access to political power here is a message of the universal indiscriminate love of God no matter who you are no matter what your background race gender it doesn’t matter you put
Your trust in Jesus and you have eternal life that’s a radical message of human equality if you think about it right yeah no it is and it’s it’s it’s an important part to understand about how how we think about it and how our Founders thought about it okay so let’s
Let’s move on so the so our Founders are are watching um well they’re they’re reading their history on on Athens and Greek history and then okay that didn’t work out exactly how they how they wanted it to so how did the Romans do it okay well that didn’t exactly work out
Either this these these experiments keep keep keep defaulting to to despotism and and Anarchy or or or just brutal dictatorship and so okay so they mve their sites to to uh to you know Medieval Europe and and Renaissance Era Europe what are they learning well that’s that’s a terrific
Question think about what happens when the Roman Empire Falls right fifth 6th Century IND Decay Roman Empire collapses who’s left standing well what’s left standing it’s the Christian church and this is where the Catholic church plays a really important role and the monks play a hugely important role in keeping
The the flame of civilization burning when it’s pretty dark outside of the borders of the Roman Empire right so the value of Education the value of literacy the value of work the importance of some relationship between church and state in which the state is trying to upfold these basic
Moral truths and basic moral ideas now things go off the rails you could certainly argue as you get into the middle and later Middle Ages in the church State relationship and the power struggles and that ultimately Dan of course the Cor coruption the absolute utter Corruption of the papacy we got to
Be frank about it one of the things the founders Learned was coming out of the whole European context was hey wait a minute mixing church and state the way you’ve been mixing it is a bad idea it’s been tried and it’s failed it led to all kinds of corruption and then ultimately
Religious wars let’s separate those two institutions of church and state institutionally separate a bad idea and it’s a bad idea because I mean I’m going to make an assumption here but i’ love to hear your answer why is it a bad idea and I assume because what it
Does is it imbus some sort of divine power into what is nothing more than a human being who happen to be a king right and that and that just creates invites that kind of corruption and abuse of power yes that’s that’s certainly down a huge part of the answer
The divine right of King’s Theory but also on the other side on the church side as soon as you have a government that says okay this is the uh accepted an official religion this is the favorite religion that if you don’t buy into that religious Creed you’re on the
Outs and so you are resistance or Rebellion against the National Church it becomes a political rebellion and now you’re seditious I’m a John Lock scholar as well and to me this is one of Lock’s great contributions to the Western liberal tradition is to understanding as soon as you have a national church you
Can have all of these losers the people who are on the outs and they’re civil and political religious Liberties will be trampled that’s the pattern that’s the historical pattern right Dan yeah and don’t worry I’m going to get to lot because I know you’re a lock scholar
But he’s like you know 17th 18th century or so you know we’ve got a long way to go I think um we got right right but what what what else were you gonna say there um I cut you off no I was just GNA
Say that no no you didn’t cut me off at all uh that that this pattern of kind of church State um Partnership if you will and then feuding back and forth it is an uncomfortable fact for all the achievements of Christendom with the Catholic church so dominant all the
Wonderful cultural achievements and they are immense and they are impressive in in bringing uh uh what had been really a a a barbaric corrupt degenerate Roman Empire and civilizing it and christianizing it it’s an incredible achievement but things do go south and they will go south in part because of
The church State relationship issue yeah and and and in the end you know religion is religion the Bible is the Bible it’s it’s the men are still men and and you know and so like you know as as Christians we always find ourselves you know debating the authority of of
Christianity with you know non-believers or especially those on the left who are just trying to to discredit it and and then they’ll they’ll point to examples like that right where where there was massive corruption where where there is that intolerance well how can you say
You live by these how can you stand by you know a church um when they when they do these things and and how do you answer how do you answer that well look part of what I have to say is let’s think about some of the amazing things
Achievements that we take for granted now in the modern world it’s a debt that we owe to Christendom and well let’s just take one obvious one maybe not so obvious to people outside of your listening view here Dan out of your audience the Scientific Revolution The
Narrative we hear from the left is the how we got the scientific Revolution was we finally cast off all the religious Superstition we became rational we got we got rid of the boogeyman of religion and you know ENT the enlightenment in the Scientific Revolution absolutely not the case historically we got a
Scientific revolution you think about this early scientists Kepler Newton Galileo and the Gang they are all either deeply committed Christian men or they’re certainly uh their worldview is consistent with the biblical understanding of a Creator separate from his creation an intelligent purposeful Creator right we can study the natural
World The Motto one of the mots of this early scientist was um God has written two books the book of scripture and the Book of nature right and that’s not inconsistent at all with the scientific Pursuit Of Truth Isaac Newton deeply involved in the scripture and his own commentaries on the Bible
Newton said this Plato is my friend and Aristotle is my friend but my greatest friend is truth so a commitment to Christianity to biblical religion was not inconsistent at all with the pursuit of scientific truth in fact the one fed the other you there’d be no scientific revolution in the west without
Christianity period That’s a debt that’s a great debt that we owe despite all the shenanigans going on at the time that you could argue right yeah no mean it was because it was a mixed bag right I mean because you obviously had some clergy that were completely against it just like we have
Today Chang um right you know and but what’s more interesting about today this is totally dis sear conversation to have but I’ve had it on this podcast before is how closer and closer I think science is bringing us to God uh when when you when you think about astrophysics um
Theoretical physics particle physics evolutionary theory kind of I think being was massively debunked as a creationism or as a creation Theory um you know we we we’ve had those conversations with some interesting people here on the podcast and it’s just there doesn’t need to be this divide
Between science and religion I think is the ultimate Point um okay so we’re keeping we we continue down history and you know eventually we we arrive at some sort of some sort of like free market ideals right this idea that we that you know societies have always traded with
Each other that’s always been a thing but you know Dark Ages medieval Europe largely feudal systems I mean where where did that start to begin the the the the cap where where does our understanding of capitalism and property rights start to start to Bubble Up you
Know fabulous question I want to take it back uh a bit here Dan in that the idea of protection of private property this is a deeply rooted value in the west you go back to some of the oldest legal codes and we just did this in my Western
S class go back to the oldest legal codes in Greece or in Rome uh the code that the Romans had protection of private property and penalties if you violate another gu’s property and it seems to me what the Jewish and Christian Traditions do is they they strengthen that commitment they deepen
That commitment because and we’ll get to lock eventually I know but the idea of property is going to take on a broader meaning in the west not just your physical property what you own but even your your intellectual property right your labor your time yeah that’s right your your creative
Abilities the things that you’re creating using your imagination using your your hard thinking not only the sweat of your brow but what’s going on in your brain and what you’re creating a broad view of property and I think this goes back to this judeo-christian understanding of the human person that
There’s a fundamental dignity and worth here and so when that person produces something it’s an image of what God himself does he creates right that’s a deeply rooted bibl idea we create in a fruitful way just as God creates as a as an intimation of what the Creator does right right right and
There’s yeah there’s this again like sort of this natural right element there where we you were allowed to protect that um okay and so moving on what our Founders also reference English common law quite a bit and um you know we we had some interesting uh in-depth
Research on this as we just impeached my orcus because there’s a really interesting debate about what what impeachment is for and um our Founders debated that uh we continue to debate it to this day that that’s an interesting conversation if we want to have it but
Um tell us about how they look they were British right they were they were basically they were British subjects who defied who who decided to rebel and become just Americans and um yeah and so they know the British system and and this is this is then there’s not it’s
Important to note not everything from the British system was bad they took parts of it they like so what was the what were main elements there yeah let’s P it’s a great question to ask Dan and we need to think about this as Americans and when I did my work my academic work
On John Lock 17th century thinker I came away really deeply encouraged by the debt that we owe the intellectual and even spiritual debt that we owe to the Brits so what what did we get from the Brits the Americans are claiming their rights as Englishmen in the Rebellion
Their rights as Englishmen they’ve got the Magna car behind them they’ve got the English Bill of Rights which helps establish the constitutional monarchy limits the power of the king you say what both can we can we explain to the audience what both of those are before
We move on too much well think about that Magna carter in the in the in the 1200s basically says nobody’s Above the Law right letting out some basic things about you can’t just be arrested without any cause you need just cause for arrest so limiting the power of the Sovereign
Right from the Magna carter and the English Phill of Rights in the uh British Glorious Revolution in 1689 that’s kind of one of their big sort of founding documents if you will right what are they saying in they’re limiting the power of the monarchy they’re making
The uh the parliament a a a reinforcing the power in the say of the of the English Parliament as representing the people right government by consent they’re reaffirming that principle of government by consent against dictatorship against Kings divine right of kings that thrown that away throwing
It away in the English Bill of Rights and some measure of religious toleration as well which was new in in Great Britain so it’s an important docum the Americans are claiming all of that as their own but the other thing they’re claiming down which is really important is natural rights natural rights came
Out of the debates in the 17th century in Great Britain and this was mostly the Protestants who are arguing this way the Catholics would come in later but in the 17th century it’s dissenting Protestants in other words if you’re not a member of the Church of England you might be a
Baptist you might be a Quaker you might be an independent guy who can’t that you that go to the church of England and you are fighting for the rights of conscience so you can’t separate the debates between political freedom and religious freedom in the 17th century
They are joined at the and the Americans have taken a lot they’ll take a lot from that they they will just run with it the principle of freedom of conscience the Americans going to run with in a way that the Brits weren’t prepared to do right this this idea freedom of religion
And um well this is let’s Sidetrack a little bit because it gets into an interesting debate that is often had about separation of church and state and and so sometimes and there’s different interpretations of that what what what is the right interpretation that our Founders understood to be separation of
Of church and state because they were obviously religious they they they they referenced the Bible more than any other document when when you know in their writings um as they debated and everything it was it was just well understood that um yes there was a there
Is a Creator and I it’s it’s literally in our founding documents so it’s it’s it’s not like they it’s not like they wanted to separate it completely I think you know what they meant was you should have the freedom of religion there shall be no there shall be no State religion
Is that an correct interpretation yeah and I’ve learned a lot from my good friend o Guinness on this and and of course other readings but think about the uh the First Amendment con will will pass no law respecting an establishment of religion nor nor prohibiting the free exercise
Thereof two Clauses Dan two Clauses with a single overriding purpose what’s the purpose protect freedom of conscience protect religious liberty now why I think the founders saw what John Lo saw if you don’t protect freedom of conscience religious freedom then all the other freedoms are at risk think
About it why do you want the right to speak Free Speech free press right of assembly right of Association because you’ve got something to say you’ve got a conscience you have a set of convictions if those aren’t protected in law as the fundamental Freedom then the other
Freedoms are at risk that’s I think part of the genius of the American experiment putting it front and center in the Bill Bill of Rights so let’s go into lock a little bit I mean what kind of world was he living in that he felt he needed to
To to write some of these you more famous writings the two treaties of government um especially those and and and and famously make these declarations about freedom of conscious the the importance of human freedom and this the sort of idea of natural rights with life liberty and property um which our Founders
Turned into life liberty and pursuit of happiness which is an interesting conversation as to why they did that but what what was he living in and what if we I’m also curious like what’s the counterfactual what if lock just was never around do you think these ideas
Would have would have come to be some other way he was massively influential in our Founders he was actually thanks for that question Dan it’s a big one let me take take a crack take a stab at it what’s going on from say 1660 to about
1689 when lock is most active but just stop and think for a minute just before you get to 1660 Britain has had its own Civil War you had a fight between the king and the Parliament right it’s a bloody Civil War they actually abolished the monarchy for a Time literally
Abolished the monarchy and they got rid of the state Church they abolished the National Church the Anglican Church in 1660 with all the chaos they reestablish it so it’s called the restoration we restore the monarchy we restore the Church of England you think things are going to be okay they’re not what begins
Now in 1660 is the sort of frenetic attempt to get people to conform conform to the new National Church the Anglican Church uh and get on board with the political agenda lock is living through that period as the government is becoming more restriced clamping down on people’s political and religious
Liberties to force people into the church of England it’s just leading to all kinds of civil strike and you’ll have another challenge Again by the 1670s 1680s the King Charles the first and then and then Charles II excuse me Charles II and then James these guys want to challenge the authority of
Parliament they want to get their own way it’s a power struggle not a civil war but it’s a real power struggle so lock is brought up in a Time Dan put it this way political absolutism think John uh think uh hanss right and the Leviathan political absolutism and religious absolutism or religious author
Authoritarianism they go hand in hand they are joined at the hip in the 17th century in Great Britain they’re joined at the hip in France Catholic France on the Louis the 14th the absolute monarch the Sun King right so L has to deal with both both problems he’s got to deal with
Political absolutism and he’s got to deal with religious absolutism so he gives us these two really remarkable documents the two treatises on government and his letter concerning Toleration to say wait a minute let’s establish some principles what is government about the fundamental purpose of government luck articulates that in a
Way no one else had done its job is to protect our natural rights what are our natural rights life liberty property life liberty property and a government that fails to protect those natural rights is no longer legitimate and you have a right to revolt no one else that
Articulated in it such a powerful way as lock did especially in the second tritus so that is a huge thing that’s the cultural environment he’s in politicaly saiding it’s deeply contentious uh and there’s a lot of repression it’s an incredibly uh violent time in Great Britain’s
History and this is referred to as so he’s Scottish uh John Lock right he’s he’s not Scottish he’s English he’s not a Scot he’s English he’s a member of the Church of England I thought he was Scottish okay um but but but there’s so so when people refer to the Scottish
Enlightenment is is is I think the more American Enlightenment really there there’s multiple enlightenments happening maybe maybe maybe flush that out for us yeah luck is part of the early English Enlightenment but it’s an Enlightenment that is not hostile to religion the French Enlightenment Dan as
You probably know which is one of the reasons I like to pick on the French French not only because they’re French uh is that the the uh the enlightenment in France was deeply anti-religious not just anti-catholic but anti-christian anti-biblical right the de christianization program of the French Enlightenment guys nothing like that’s
Happening in Great Britain and certainly nothing like that in the United States so the British Enlightenment emphasizes virtue emphasizes morality it’s friendly to Christian faith and there’s a huge emphasis on individual rights right that’s on the English side the American through the Scots you’re right though
The Scots have a huge thing on this uh through that Scottish Enlightenment on the American side You could argue that the Americans what do we bring to the table on the enlightenment I think we probably bring not only republicanism small R representative government into the enlightenment in a big way we also bring
You could argue Christianity in in the American context Protestant Christianity predominantly that that’s one of the streams two of the streams that enter into our Enlightenment republicanism right yeah natural rights and Protestant Christianity help really shape the American Enlightenment in a way that’s not true so much in Great Britain
Certainly not in France did they so you there was a lot of debate over what kind of Congress we would have um whether it would be like a a parliamentary system the way the British had uh or by coll system with the Congress and you know a
House and a senate the way we the way we do it have and the way they ultimately decided upon and and to me it makes logical sense why you decide upon that because you know if you have just a house well you’re I think you’re still
Subject to the the whims of of the mob I mean it’s and I see it in the house all the time I live here all right it’s um it’s it’s emotional you’re up for office you’re up for reelection every two years and it’s it’s very easy to to get people
To even say and do things I don’t think they believe um whereas the Senate is supposed to be a different you know at least a different body um where something ELO has to pass uh but I’m not actually sure did they reference that idea from from another uh government I
I’m not aware of it well you know they certainly studied other systems not only the Greeks and the Romans they studied some of the uh republics the Italian republic city states uh Florence um Venice and what happened there how did they govern but the big challenge for the founders of course
Stand was okay we’ve got this vast Republic this vast geographical space one chamber ain’t going to cut it so we need a represent a more representative body like a House of Representatives but we also need a senate that thinks more in the National terms and that’s kind of
The genius that was one of the great compromises really going was that iess I guess my question is is that by Camal Congress an American first idea like was that was that our idea first or was that something they they looked at I I don’t
I don’t know I mean it I don’t know of any other government that did that well you could well the the Brits of course had a House of Lords and a house they have a House of Lords yeah right right that’s true so it’s out there it’s out
There but the Americans gonna of course put their own their own spin on it right right yeah the house of in the House of Lords is a is a um it is not an elected body it’s uh you you you get there through your Noble lineage and still
That way by the way um yeah and and our Senate Perman yeah you’re a permanent member right and our senate or first Senators at least uh before The Constitution changed was uh were were elected by state legislators so it was meant to yeah represent the state I I I
Think we should I don’t know what you think I I think that was a better system um until making it a popular vote I think basically creates over time it’s taken some time but it’s getting there has basically created two houses um that are you know that they’re not quite the
Same but they’re more similar than I think the founders intended them to be um I don’t know what do you think about that I think you’re probably right now I don’t know what the answer answer is I’m not a political scientist I I’m leaning more and more toward term limits though
I can tell you that emotionally it’s emotional Yeah Yeah well yeah know I just I always remind people like you know hey they’re like well I want to get rid of Nancy Pelosi I’m like she represents San Francisco who do you think’s G to replace Nancy Pelosi it’s GNA be some like crazy
Blue-haired you know lady who identifies as a dolphin on Thursdays like that’s that’s who’s going to replace herself not sure you’re getting a whole lot better deal there um the term limit is a whole other discussion but okay so I I just I love kind of going through this
History and and and and reminding myself and others sort of where we where we came from and why we do things the way we do um I just think it’s it’s it’s fascinating now let’s talk I mean maybe more modern politics um see how these loan principles or Founders were deeply
Uh I guess um uh impressed by them um influenced by them uh I think it’s obvious that that the left has has has always um been well not always but certainly the Marxist left which is a maybe more recent phenomenon in the last century has been decently suspect of
Those principles uh for variety of reasons um we could talk about that and then what what is their issue with those principles uh fundamentally you think and and how that manifests in our in our modern debates and then we’ll move on to the you know I think the more ENT
Phenomenon where the more populist right I think also doesn’t agree with a lot of these principles yeah that’s a fascinating question Dan you ask me what what what are the what’s the fundamental grievance or grievances that the left has with our liberal Democratic order
Mhm Bo a lot put on the table I guess they would look at the liberal Democratic order and say well in equality all around too much inequality whether that’s in an economic sense or in a political sense we’re not getting the Level Playing Field that we want
Right and so the idea of Merit hard work Merit a meritocracy it seems to have become anathema to the left but it was so important to the founding generation and think about what the Americans did it was anti-elitist in so many ways I understand the racism right from the
Beginning believe me I get that I understand the the residual elitism but if you think about it what the Americans going after is that whole class structure that was so dominant in Great Britain the ordinary farmer can make a make a a go up can make a run can enter
Into a political life in an amazing way with an echo of ancient Greece You could argue a person with no particular inheritance rights or anything could really become a prominent Citizen and we have all kinds of examples of course of that in our history the left is not
Comfortable with that because it focuses so much on the people who seem to be left out for whatever reason right so meritocracy is one of them but I think the other thing the left really despises right now which is so deeply troubling is well what about the whole concept of natural
Rights natural inhalable rights by virtue of Being Human and I think that concept now is uh it’s it is anathema it’s not it’s not putting it too strongly that the left cannot come to to the conclusion and agree yeah there are certain inable rights that come from the
Hand of God that we just don’t mess with by virtue of being a human being it doesn’t seem to me that the radical left believes that anymore if they if they ever did right right well see and especially yeah that radical Marxist left because their end goal is this sort
Of egalitarianism and by definition you’ve got to infringe on somebody’s natural rights in order to force equality like perfect equality so it you know course of course they throw out those principles I think the other thing is they they’re at their heart you know there there’s there’s like the really bad crazy
Progressive stuff and then there’s sort of your kind-hearted liberals like there’s different categories yeah and I think you’re kinded I think your kindhearted liberal is just a utopianist and I think you know which is which is ultimately just it’s it makes you you’re fine you’re nice but you’re naive and
Because utopianism is impossible and and and and and they’re and they’re constantly frustrated that utopian that that that the utopian reality isn’t there whatever now however they Define it to be this is the other problem without really strong principles in place what you define as utopia could
Just be anything and and and like I’m not clear on what what grounding like Foundation they have to to Define what Utopia is so that’s like a whole separate issue but but the thing about stri for utopianism is like they’re willing to just burn down foundations because they can’t reach that utopian
Level that they want exactly right and you end up just getting lower and lower and we try to convince them of that so that they’ll stop yes yes yes that’s right Dan think about communism gets it start in the mid 19th century with the Industrial Revolution marks and Engles
And you can argue that the early Communists they are genuinely deeply disturbed by the by the negative effects of industrialization and they see an unjust social order I understand that but what’s their solution eliminate private property it somehow that’s going to solve all society’s problems if we eliminate private property somehow
That’ll change human nature so I think there’s a bad anthropology at work if I could use that word a view of a human person a bad anthropology at work on the left particularly on the left if we just get rid of private property people’s whole way of interacting will just
Change and become what almost Angelic yeah and we will create a sort of perfect egalitarian society that’s just not how life is right there’s a reason we’ve been protecting private property rights in the West for about 5,000 years more or less yeah and it’s and I I think conservatives are just more comfortable
With the notion that like you this is about as good as you can get it as far as a system is concerned um it doesn’t take away uh human nature human nature can can can go bad it can go good and you have to accept that as it is and and
Build a system that is that is best conducive to to the outcomes you want of of prosperity and and freedom and equality those those outcomes you need to Define ahead of time again like in our founding documents I think they’re defined ahead of time and I think that’s
Like the fundamental drawback of the left and and and so you know my conclusion is always I’m glad they’re around because sometimes Liberals are just they’re they’re good at pointing out things maybe some injustices here and there that could be fixed yes and that’s that’s okay like that’s a
Kind-hearted thing that I’m glad they’re around for but I don’t think they should be in charge of actually fixing it because they’re because they’re just not they’re just not properly governed by by limiting principles and I is like such a big deal um and it’s you know
It’s why I explain to people like why be a conservative and for me it’s like a it’s a thought process you know it does lead to certain outcomes that we’ve kind of all ended up agreeing on but more important than anything it’s a thought process and so now we get into the
Conversation about the populist right to me they have like you know how do they how do they fight against this these locki and principles because it’s not the same as the left they’re not egalitarians um they’re just really mad some of times and I’m not so sure it
Goes a lot deeper than that but but they’re also utopianist like they have this sort of idea in their head about how things should be and then and I guess the way they do start to look a lot like the left is is coercing the state to make that Utopia
Theirs what do you Do You observe yeah I think that’s a pretty good summary Dan if I had to maybe use the phae they’re embittered utopians if I could borrow from you on that I think they’re embittered utopians and we’ve seen this before you know not so uh distant in
History this is really this in many ways the story of the 20th century the early first half of the 20th century what happens after the first world war Dan a lot of embittered people the the watch word of the hour is disillusionment you fought this war industrialized Carnage
What do we have to show for it nothing wrecked economies Empires destroyed millions of people unemployed why do you think fascism begins in Italy which was on The Winning Side of the War uh 1919 to musini they’re on the winning side of the war incredible disillusionment the problem with
Disillusionment is it sets you up for what the demagogue the utopian alternative and that’s that’s what takes flight in the 1920s and 30s Eugenics communism fascism Nazism all born out of a kind of disillusionment and anger so I’m I am deeply concerned about where the right is today in America they are
Embedded utopians and what are they doing they’re doing a very similar thing that these ideologies were doing in the 1920s and 30s reach for the state the state will help bring about this utopian Vision we’ve got well we’ve been down this road we’ve seen this movie play out
Before haven’t we Dan yeah now it’s it’s literally what conservatives are supposed to be against and and look it’s a mixed bag some are some aren’t some are some uh you know it’s it’s politics is complicated and you choose you choose a politician at well and in some ways
They’re they’re uh I think consistent conservatives and in other ways I’m like how on Earth do you believe that um you know and so I yeah and there isn’t the thing about the the populace it’s like it literally is just what’s more popular at the time I mean that’s why we call it
Populism and so for me the left has always been a populist ideology because they’re like hey what do you want you want more Freer health care then let’s just give you Freer healthare just elect me and I’ll just give it to you like I’ll just give you more benefits that’s
Just elect what do you want like you know because if I if I do a poll of the people and I say do you yes or no do you want $1,000 from the government what do you think that poll is going to say like
It’s going to be a pretty high PLL so so so according to populism and direct democracy that’s what I should just do yes but I don’t because I’m conservative with limiting principles and yet you know our populist I’ll never forget it was a 2020 election let me add to the
Equation as well I’ll answer the equation in terms of a flaw on the left and we’ll see how it connects to the right a deep materialism seeing people as not they wouldn’t use this language but as Commodities this is the great Marxist era if you view people only as
As physical beings there’s nothing Beyond them no Transcendence no spiritual Dimension then what’s going to happen you’re not going to place the proper value on the family and all that does to en Noble and to dignify you’re not going to place the proper value on
Work which does much to en Noble and d and dignify people because we’re not just material things who have to have our material needs satisfied there are deeper emotional and spiritual needs we all have made in the image of a Creator if you’re a person of Faith so the left
Has jettison that as we know become increasingly secular and the Democratic party increasingly secular Progressive Movement so what about on the right because a lot of these guys on the right certainly claim it’s different it’s different because they Woulda they’re like the I mean on their profile picks
You know it’s like whatever Psalms this proverbs this I mean it’s they’re like they really wear it on their on their on their sleeve so that’s right it’s it’s it it’s wrapped in religious stuff but I think they’ve forgotten something really important out of their own religious
Traditions which is this at least one thing they’ve forgotten you have got to transmit this great cultural inheritance we have the political ideals political liberalism dignity you got to transmit that to education and the impatience and the cynicism of the hard right it stuns me Dad spent a couple years recently
Here at the Heritage Foundation that’s another discussion for another day I think they have many there not everybody but some have fallen into this trap over there forgetting the incredibly important role of transmitting that Western Heritage to the Next Generation through education you’re not going to solve deep cultural problems with an
Election cycle it’s not going to happen right and the right has has almost forgotten that what would you say yeah well it’s worse than that um so that it is true you’re not going to solve it through an election cycle you need you need consistency if you’re
Going to win the trust of Voters that’s true but the the so my my observation of you know what I call the populist right I don’t know what else to call it um they call themselves that you know natc cons is another one National conservatives so they’re America First
Sure um as if the rest of us aren’t it’s it’s a weird and all that really boils down to generally is don’t do anything with foreign policy that’s what they tend to mean by America first so it’s it’s kind of a shallow View and you know I’m like it’s not America first when
Like everybody else controls the world’s sea lanes and and all politics around the world that’s not America First that means we’re going to be last every single time because we get the last at the table but you know it’s a foreign policy discussion for a different time
Um I I think what what what really binds the the philosophy that I’m worried about is is is really just grievance and victimhood so this is this is another place where like the left and the the far left and Far Right meet like really really well and they and they lock arms
Is sense of victimhood victim from the government victim from other social classes now they choose different social classes to be mad at don’t get me wrong right it’s but it’s but it’s but it’s it’s definitely boils down to this to this ideology where you’re no longer in
Charge where like you really don’t have the agency that conservatives were we so proud of like no it’s like it’s like you know let’s let’s let’s quote my friend Joo right it’s like extreme ownership like you own everything that’s a very conservative a mindset it’s a very seal
Mindset of course because and we like to do everything to do with the extreme and so he’s talking about it in leadership terms but but it’s it’s it’s meaningful when we talk about in individual terms too because like look maybe you are truly victimized but in the end your
Mentality to be able to get out of that is important and if you could just continue to believe you’re a victim then you’re going to be looking for the demagogue to save you exact and that’s not a conservative value right that’s exactly right and all and again there’s a historical pattern
Here it seems to me a bit if we could say that Dan looking to the demagogue to solve deep cultural problems how did we get there I understand the the issue of grievance and a sense of being on the outside being put down being treated like garbage from the elite institutions
I’ve got some I’ve got some years on you Dan so I can I can remember a time when not all the institutions in America uh the popular media of course uh the the academic institutions Etc even the business community I can remember a time when they were not all kind of amassed
Against a more kind of traditional conservative view of the world where you are not quite treated with contempt in the way that conservatives can be I understand that I get that grievance but then you got to ask yourself the question all right how did we get there
How did we get there and what can we do about it rationally what can we do about it and that’s why as an educator of course I’m going to emphasize you have got to train the Next Generation up in this great cultural inheritance that we have
In my class the other day with some of my students I made reference to the Lincoln Douglas debates glazed look on their face these are college students now at a good institution had never heard of the Lincoln Douglas debate so we we have a lot of work to do that’s a
Generational task and that takes patience grievance will not get you there right no it it it won’t and it’s just emotion I mean people want to be mad and and social yeah social media gives them an outlet for that like it never has before and so I think the also
Feel angrier um they feel more divided even though whether it’s true or not is is it’s you know it’s hard to it’s hard to measure um but somebody rightfully pointed out that you know only God can really have the emotional capacity to deal with omniscience and uh and none of
Us really do and so and the internet kind of gives us this sort of this omniscience but it’s a but then you add to that the the reality of negativity bias where you know our brains drawn to negativity I know mine is right like I a million good things happen to me but
There 10 bad things it’s like it just yours a down um and so it’s it’s making people just really upset and they’re looking for that outlet and the world here here’s another I think new thing in in politics um or Society really is it’s just more complicated um the founders were living
In an era where policy was just not that complicated and so I think sometimes too we we we bemoan um some some of the some of the policies that are in place and and don’t really look to why those policies are in place or why we’re doing
Things the way we do it maybe we should change it maybe we shouldn’t but but there’s but there’s oftentimes no sense of humility about like what someone doesn’t know or not know and we live in a really complex place you know the founders didn’t have uh the centers for
Medicare and Medicaid to deal with they didn’t have these massive bureaucracies they didn’t have to to figure out how to how to how to do regulatory regimes on on you know Spectrum control and HF and and who does what and radio frequencies and laying down fiber optic cables and
And building U you know space satellites there’s just a lot and and so it’s really easy too for demagogues especially on the outside and kind of the media world to just say things with some Authority because they’ve got a high listenership and they’re very entertaining people and people just
Believe it you know and I’m like you this week for instance we had our the some debates on fisa and it’s to me that’s an example of of a belief in something that isn’t true um where like the the Jerry nadler’s Bill who’s a you know far-left Democrat
Somehow made it into my friends on the freedom caucuses hands and they loving it and I’m like but you’re going to dismantle our entire security apparatus and they’re just like no we’re not we don’t believe you and I’m like I I mean we just disagreeing on basic facts at
This point and it’s it’s a frustrating debate to have um wow but it’s it’s it’s happening yes and Dan to your point the more more that emotions and anger and rage become you just part of the in the air and in the in the water in The Ether
Well then what happens the rational thinking I mean rational come clear logical analysis if that goes out the window we are in deep trouble there’s a line from CS Lewis where he says uh the great Christian Author um nonsense in the intellect draws evil and after it
Nonsense in the intellect draws to evil after it and Lewis was so good on coming back to think it out man think out what you’re saying uh and and the screw tape letters that wonderful diabolical fantasy the screw tape letters these demons tempting the Mortal one of the
Things that comes up is don’t let your mortal Man start thinking rationally don’t let him go go through logic who knows will that will take him right so the the denigration of this good clear critical rational thinking caring about facts that is a huge problem for this
Republic right now Dan and I’m not sure what we do about it but we got to keep pushing back with truth we we’ve got to keep standing up making hard choices saying hard truths in a way that can be received not in an angry you know burn
The house down kind of way but we got to bring some truths to Bear facts to bear on the situation which is the kind of thing you do thank you I I try and um wise mentor of mine told me look good leader leadership is delivering the
Truth to people at a rate that they can handle and and you know and I’ve seen some politicians Crash and Burn because they’re like screw you this is this is what it is you know and it’s you got to choose your battles because if you don’t
Live if you don’t live to fight another day you’re just you’re just out of the fight um yes and what I worry about on the Republican side we were talking about you kind of the obsession with just winning the next election and I’m actually not so sure we’re obsessed with
Winning the next election I think I I agree that actually actually that’s actually the scary part something else yeah you know like if I mean say I’ve said it openly like look if Trump’s I didn’t participate in the primary in this presidential primary at all and I
Still won’t um but when when when and I think it is a when uh Trump is the nominee look I’m GNA advocate for him over Biden that’s simple as that um but I’m not so sure some in our party want to win I think there will be generally unification around Trump to to
A large extent but I but I mean more winning the the general battle you know I I see Democrats in their current form as the easiest party in history to beat um if if if we just if we just stick to sort of Reagan conservatism you know you’re sticking to the basics you’re
You’re maintaining your principles you’re not you’re not jumping to to positions that are clearly contradictory to your own principles um you’re nice about it right you’re very conservative but you’re not angry about it and that is that’s a very that is an easy towin um Doctrine if you will and I just keep
And and and and we have that debate in our own conference sometimes right you know I remember when McCarthy was still here it’s like you you you’ve got to still win guys and and and and there would be members who would actually stand up who were like no there’s value
In losing I mean if that’s what it takes I’m like there’s no there is there’s literally none there’s no value you in that in in in losing you know this seat or that seat um if if the goal is is winning on policy now see I’m not so
Sure that’s their goal and we’re going to have this fight right now yes um you know because we’re debating other whether we want to actually get some wins on a supplemental or not yes and I don’t know Dan don’t we have to ask ourselves the question and I’m maybe
I’ll put the question to you you’ve been putting questions to me um the founders if you think about it they could produce leaders who were world cled leaders they could produce dozens of them in that in that founding generation really men and women eventually who could stand up and
Lead amazing caliber of leadership we can’t produce men and women of that caliber now hardly what you can count them on one hand if you can find the one hand to count them so the question I have that a lot of people have is well how is it that this in political terms
How is it that the parties have produced these men as their as the head head of the party as the head of their movements is this the best that we can do everyone I know wants to say no it can’t be the best that we can do we have to do better
But we’re not doing better so the huge important cultural question Dan is why why is the is the best that we have right now why um what would you say I’d say the simple answer is because you know people don’t put enough importance on primary elections and so you know if
You don’t if you don’t like your choices for whether it’s whether it’s in the president’s race or whether it’s in your local Congressional race if you’re looking at your choices and you’re like how the hell how the hell is this my choice well you got to ask yourself did
You did you vote in the primary and did you try to get 20 friends to vote in the primary the answer is usually not you know so I’m I’m really yeah I’m mostly talking about my kind of you I wouldn’t call them moderate Republicans but call them inactive Republicans they know
They’ll they’ll vote a general election like yeah we’re going to go support the Republican got it yeah but but you know our our voter turnout in primaries is very very slow now sometimes it works out okay sometimes it doesn’t it we could go across the different districts in
America and look at them you can have an R30 District where you got a crazy person representing it or you g to have an r0 District where you’ve got a really good solid governing Republican that really wants to solve problems and understands that solving those problems
Is messy and you’re going to piss people off and that’s just the way it is and I I think I think part of right-wing populism is a refusal to believe that fact and it is a fact that if you that if you want wins policy wins
You do have to have the right people win elections and have sustained majorities and to have sustained majorities you have to be persuasive and to be persuasive you can’t just be yelling and screaming and being angry all the time right you have to kind of you have
To stop and take a breath and think through some of this stuff so you know it’s not really a problem in our system I think it’s a problem with um you know the how how easy it is to get people to believe certain things you know because
Of social media and that being a prim location where people might derive their news from but also just lack of participation by those who are honestly maybe more levelheaded but when you you know just psychologically the more levelheaded people in America um you might call them moderates I’m not so
Sure they’re necessarily moderates they’re but they’re but they’re also not as passionate right they’re not they’re not going to to Republican or Democrat Party meetings um those you know they’re not and and we need a better mix of of I think participation from from our own
Voters uh to actually fix some of those problems um like if you know if you don’t like your choices that’s what you got to do yes yes I’m with you most of the way on this stand I guess the question I’m I’m still wrestling with as
A historian of course as a voter and a participant is where the populace is now if they’re so uneducated about the nature of our system our our Republican system our federal system the states have authority the Federal what the con if they’re so ignorant of
That it seems to me they’re just so much more vulnerable to the demagogue and that’s a left right problem it’s not just a right problem or a left problem if we don’t understand the nature of our system and what it was designed to do what does it mean to be self-governing
Citizens you got to be able to govern yourself at the end of the day and if you right yeah you know you got to have a Civics education I’ve actually just finished I’m also working on them but like seven or eight lectures on Civics 101 and I’m excited I’m working with the
Jordan Peterson on that and excited decited to do it and you know it’s mostly I think it’ll be great I mean because I want people to understand that you know what a congressman does and and and what they don’t do right and like there’s and and and what what what
Separation of powers actually means you know like well you had control the Senate house and presidency why didn’t you do this there’s a 60 VT threshold in the senate for cloer and like you know there’s just some basic stuff and also why don’t you do this well it’s not
Really a federal thing you don’t want us doing that you know it’s right you got to be careful what you ask for um because because the shoe on the other foot question has to be asked and so yes so and so that’s not a satisfying answer
To a lot of people who are angry and want and want something to change and you just have to remind them I’m like you you know and they somebody will often say well this is what the people want and I’m like well it’s what you
Want um and I’m sure there’s a lot and there’s a lot agree with you but if the people wanted it you’d probably get it you know the reality is is that some things are just are just a lot of people disagree with you more than you realize um because we all
Kind of kind associate within our bubbles and then we get this this sort of confirmation bi us about what we believe and and I think that’s it’s human nature yes Dan I’m delighted to hear you’re doing a Civics thing here with Jordan Peterson because you could hardly
Do anything more important to that IND political moment I think and this goes back to the Greeks in in in ancient Greece in Athens if you didn’t participate you’re a citizen if you didn’t show up in the assembly and vote and engage in Civic and political life
They had a word for you and the Word was otai idiot idiot you were an idiot you were you weren’t fulfilling your civic responsibility to the city state you had to be engaged the Romans had a civil a similar idea as well with the word patas Duty Devotion to duty Devotion to
Country right out a Virgil I like that word a little bit better than idiot but yeah but it is it is yeah it’s a civic duty I’m going to incorporate some of the things you said on this podcast in into my lectures you know because I’m
Not of I’m not a western or civilization expert by any stretch but um you know the in the first of my lectures what I basically explore is is why do we even have a government you know and and and and try to just map that out like well
Because we need to organize ourselves okay well how should we organize ourselves I don’t know it’s like yes let’s have a leader okay well we got a leader now what okay well that didn’t work out so well and like how many people can you really have a leader
Under how many how many people can be governed by one person is you know the complexities to society so it’s like exploring all these interesting questions and I think helps people get to like okay this is how we got to where we are you know with a local state and a
Federal uh government and of course we argue about where those Powers have been overstepped and of course as a conservative we think there been massively overstepped on the federal side but um you know we fight that um and that’s that’s the purpose of think Dan another
Way to put this if I could um is we’re kind of at a Hobs versus lock moment moment it seems to me in our political culture Thomas Hobs the Leviathan give me a a powerful ruler over the whole Commonwealth he’ll tell me what to do but he’ll provide stability and order
Right and may me Prosperity give me that powerful ruler the Leviathan that’s HS then lot give me self-government give me government by consent of the government which a whole different view of the human person our obligations not just our rights and responsibilities rights but our obligations and responsibilities right
Hobs versus lock and it seems to me we’re at a hob Hobs and lock and moment right now and it’s anybody’s guess which way the country’s going to go we’ve proba been there for a long time I mean how long have have we put basically every ounce of effort into whoever the
President is I mean we we we’ve definitely gotten to a point in our society where we view the president as this as this all powerful King everything is the president’s fault and everything good that happens is the president’s fault you know the stock market goes up it’s the president stock
Market goes down it’s the president it’s like well stop imbuing so much power in this person now Congress has imbued too much power in that person by simply abdicating that Authority I’m not sure what do you think here’s a question what do you think our Founders envisioned
Like if they were to look if they were like to you were to ask them about 2024 um would they have envisioned the the factions that we have now being so so so clearly divided in a left and right spectrum and a republican Democrat kind of spectrum I think Madison might have I
Think I think a guy like Madison mid he really deeply worried about factions and the potential for factions to really tear the Republic apart well but I mean like I mean like I mean like a two-party system basically do you think they ever imagined that or do you think they
Imagined a lot more parties or do you think imagined more like Regional differences able to combat each other that’s a terrific question you can not combat but balance yeah yeah yeah I think probably depending on the founder you’re talking to you’re gonna get a slightly different answer I think they
Really hope that after going through the the the the the fires of the Revolutionary War with this now United Country and this Constitution and the two Chambers the Senate and the house and a a president who was not K who limited himself to two terms and it
Wasn’t even in the Constitution from the getto you don’t have to put it in the Constitution George Washington set the example two terms I think they were really hopeful that we’d be able to manage these differences and that you prevent the whole kind of factions taking over with such a large country
And so many different communities so many different constituencies they have to compromise and think about this then the compromises they they they um they managed at the convention were truly remarkable and I don’t just I understand the issue of slavery and and and that unfortunate deep compromise with that
Deep sin I understand that but they they made other compromises which were terrific which held the union together which they didn’t have to make and might not have made and that’s everything from the two Chambers the federal system the separation of powers I mean these were immense uh breakthroughs in political
Theory under pressure and the in the hot summer in Philadelphia without it conditioning not bad right yeah and and you know I think and and I put this in one of my lectures too I actually do believe that if with the benefit of some hindsight that it was it was certainly
Inevitable that we would have a left and a right faction the way we do yeah and I believe that because I think every country has that now they might have different you know uh parties more parties than we do that are viable but in the end they have a coalition
Government and an opposition government in the end it’s always and it’s often in this sort of conservative ative liberal divide and I think that’s I think that’s natural to The Human Condition uh and I I point to you know um um uh Thomas Soul’s book conflict of Visions is like
The the best book on this subject about like how the human mind is just divided into this and on the one side basically a a you know a desire to have government have just more control and and and develop that utopianism and on the other side more what he calls the constrained
Vision a constrained view of government that say allows for a little bit more risk and and human nature but but does its best to create a system where it doesn’t completely fall apart and like for all the hand ringing we have about our America these days it’s like it
Hasn’t fallen apart like our economy is still like a great height you know things aren’t that bad I always worth telling people who are angry I’m like get off the internet for 30 days please just go out to your community and hang out with people and you’re going to be
Like all right maybe America’s not so bad because it’s not it’s just it’s just not like we got bad things happening we got bad Trends in universities and things but it’s also not all universities um it’s it’s highly concentrated in Elite Coastal universities um you know there’s there
There’s context that I think we in the in the in the effort to hyperbolize things in order to make a point which I get as a politician I get the the the Affinity to do that yes you still got to contextualize things so you don’t piss people off too much because then they’ll
Want things that you didn’t intend for them to want that’s right that’s right Dan if we we can’t just keep catastroph izing everything and that that satisfies some emotional need I think for a lot of people to catastrophize but we just can’t keep going down that road it doesn’t lead to constructive solutions
To the problems we really have and we can solve so many of these problems with some good clear hard thinking honest thinking facing the facts try to reach across the aisle once in a while there are people across the aisle who are sane and we’ve just so vilified each other
And that’s a recipe for disaster we got to get off the ification bandwagon don’t we yeah it’s it’s a more of a problem on the right right because we have labels for it you know Rhino or if you if you try to work with Democrats on something
It’s the uni party yeah I’m like what does that even mean man yeah what does it mean you you’re writing a book you’re about to come out with a book on token and Lewis is that I am actually yes it’s it’s called the the war for Middle Earth
Jr tolken and CS Lewis confront the Gathering storm 1933 to 1945 thanks for mentioning it uh D it’s a deeply encouraging story well these guys they have a ringside seat to the rise of these ideologies in the 1930s tolken and Lewis do in Great Britain fascism communism totalitarianism and what do these guys
Do well Britain’s going to be at War struggling for its existence but it’s at that precise moment 1939 to 1945 what tolken and Lewis are getting on with their callings they’re not politicians they’re academics and writers so what are they doing then they’re writing their great epic works with all the
Uncertainty that’s going on in the world and it’s not even clear Great Britain’s going to survive they’re getting on with their works and think about their stories then they’re not dystopian cynical uh stories of anger and rage they’re drawing our hearts and Minds to the true The Good The Beautiful they’re
Creating a vision of a world as it ought to be so there’s a hopefulness and a moral Beauty embedded in their stories think about it Dan during one of the most dark darkest period really of human civilization 1939 to 1945 and they’re not going to allow that emotional mood
And Gloom to overwhelm them they’re going to push back it’s a great story yeah well look forward to it coming out they’re pulling me out because I got to go talk to CNN I guess um okay so we we I’m sure we could we could talk forever
And um I appreciate you being on this has been a great conversation thank you thank you Dan thanks so much great being with you I appreciate it
10 Comments
The thing that really scares me is that this assault is coming from inside as much as outside
How the West was lost. Sequel to 1963 movie.
I won't be voting along party lines this time. I swung rt for DeSantis but I won't for Trump or maga. I don't care how much they threaten me.
Get Jaeson Jones and Julián Leyzaola on to talk cartels
Ok. I have to respond. I live. In CA. The nominee for president has been picked every time since I have lived here before I get to vote. Our system disenfranchises 95% of the country allowing Iowa and New Hampsire to decide who the nominee will be Since the resounding majority of the country doesn't want a Biden/Trump choice in November our system stands in open defiance of what the people want.
Dan crenshaw is terrible for America.
America is waking up, P O S
Get closer to God
To start with God is The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost. Three yet one.
The law is our schoolmaster. It teaches us who The Father is, our law giver, who The Son is, our redeemer who you are and what it will look like after the return of Jesus. Jesus kept His Father's law while He was here, He will still keep it even though He is now King. Jesus inherited His Father's ways and laws etc..
To practice our religion is to be doers of The Word. In doing so we learn to not only give our heart to God, but our mind as well. Then one day, hopefully soon, we learn how to give our soul or body and we become the living sacrifice God so seeks.
The church can't do what Jesus did because it is God who heals etc. through the living who did as Jesus did and can "keep" His Father's laws, given to the children. No one can keep all the laws because they were given to a nation.
God and Jesus are one. So if we can see Jesus, we see The Father. So let's look upon Jesus. So let's see what The Father did when we repented and asked for help. God placed His law upon our heart.In John we are told that Jesus is The Word.
Jesus is The Word, John 1:1-5
The Word God spoke: Exodus 20:1
The Word God wrote: Deuteronomy 4:13
and The Word God made flesh John 1:14.
Let the Law that hung on the cross and the Law written in your heart not just guide you, but lead you and your loved ones. As Paul would say, "put on Jesus." Seek the face of Jesus and spread Him over our land. Arm your children, home, loved ones, neighbours. Remember to pray always. Allow God to set our borders, protect our loved ones and may soon come His day and we are still standing. Put on Jesus, our Ten Commandments, Deut. 6:8-9.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Psalm 119:151Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.
Perhaps we should walk in the Spirit and Truth the way God says to in Deuteronomy 6:8-9. All who know and love God, and those who know one cannot stand against the world, need to trust His wisdom. To know their voice is to "keep" the Ten Commandments and Sermon on the Mount. Be sure to set your borders! He hasn't left us, we left Him when we took Him from public schools, courts,etc..
Please people. We need the Armour of God. What harm can it really do to follow His Ways, and customs? If you love Jesus, accept Him for who He is. Don't be caught in your iniquity. Get in His covenant. (K.J.V.) A decision we all must make for our family.
And remember Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.
This was great. I don’t have a party but I started voting in primaries this year.
Hey Dan looks like your plans to send u.s military to invade mexico will work..they are about to have a woman president 😂.