William Ury | Russia, Ukraine, & the Vicious Cycle of Humiliation & Trauma

Humiliation is reflected in most major historical events, especially in wars.

Throughout the centuries, humans continue to be stuck in the same pattern of humiliation. And it has become even more significant in the present.

With COVID-19 bringing a sense of interconnectedness and the whole world tuning in to the Russian-Ukrainian conflict, author and anthropologist William Ury dissects the root cause of this cycle. He explains that empathy is our most powerful tool in negotiation, as it enables us to understand our “opponents” and communicate with them effectively.

*Please note that this episode was recorded during the first months of the war in Ukraine, and William and Thomas’ commentary is relevant to that time. Since then, circumstances may have changed.*

Key points include:

✔️ How doing our inner work helps us to act more effectively toward the betterment of the collective
✔️ Using strategic empathy to better understand an “opponent” and find a constructive way out of conflict
✔️ How both COVID-19 and the war in Ukraine galvanized the world and made us aware of our interconnectedness
✔️ Fear and crises tune our collective instrument, and we can use them as an opportunity for positive transformation
✔️ Being a “possible-ist” – someone who can see both negative and positive possibilities and potentials, and can act accordingly to move situations in a positive direction

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William Ury is one of the world’s leading experts on negotiation and mediation. As the co-founder of the Program on Negotiation, he is a driving force behind many new negotiation theories and practices. Ury is the co-author with Roger Fisher and Bruce Patton of Getting to Yes, a 15-million-copy bestseller translated into more than 35 languages, and the author of several other books including the award-winning Getting to Yes with Yourself.

Over the last four decades, Ury has served as a negotiation advisor and mediator in conflicts ranging from the Cold War to ethnic and civil wars in the Middle East, Chechnya, Yugoslavia, and most recently in Colombia, where he serves as a senior advisor to President Juan Manuel Santos. In addition to teaching negotiation and mediation to tens of thousands of executives, Ury is the founder of the Abraham Path Initiative, which seeks to bring people together across cultures by opening a long-distance walking route in the Middle East that retraces the footsteps of Abraham and his family. In recognition of his work, he has received the Cloke-Millen Peacemaker Award, the Whitney North Seymour Award from the American Arbitration Association, and the Distinguished Service Medal from the Russian Parliament.

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Thomas Hübl is a renowned teacher, author, and international facilitator whose lifelong work integrates the core insights of the great wisdom traditions and mysticism with the discoveries of science. Since 2004, he has taught and facilitated programs with more than 100,000 people worldwide, including online courses which he began offering in 2008. The origin of his work and more than two decades of study and practice on healing collective trauma is detailed in his book, “Healing Collective Trauma: A Process for Integrating Our Intergenerational and Cultural Wounds.”

Connect with Thomas here:

Website: https://thomashuebl.com/
Facebook: https://facebook.com/Thomas.Huebl.Sangha/
Instagram/Twitter: @thomashuebl
YouTube: https://youtube.com/@thomashuebl

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#ukraine #conflictresolution #traumahealing

I right now I say I’m a possibilist you know because in a possibilist can see potential can see possibility you can see negative possibilities because you’re not like it’s not like oh everything could be great no you can see the negative ways we could develop all the negative potential but you can also

See the positive potential and then you can act accordingly to see if you can transform transform and heal the situation and move in the positive direction welcome to point of relation with Thomas Hubble a podcast that illuminates the path to Collective healing at the intersection of Science and mysticism in

His conversations with Visionaries innovators artists and healers Thomas invites guests into a relational experience that allows inspiration and Innovation to emerge this is the point of relation Our Guest for today’s episode is William Yuri William Yuri is one of the world’s leading experts on negotiation and mediation co-founder of Harvard’s program on negotiation and a best-selling author over the past 35 years he has served as a negotiation advisor and mediator in conflicts from ethnic wars in the Middle East the

Balkans and former Soviet Union and most recently in Colombia we hope you enjoy this conversation William Welcome to our third conversation in this podcast today thank you for joining again and one welcome thank you Thomas always a pleasure yeah last time we talked at uh you know

The first time we had our conversation there was a war in Israel last time we scheduled the conversation then there was a started the war in Ukraine and um and so today I wanna continue a bit our conversation you the last time you gave a very lovely overview over the

Composition of the current conflict and how it built up over many many years and um and one thing you said last time I think that I would love to dive into deeper is the the Vicious Cycle of humiliation trauma and then re-traumatization and other humiliation and it goes on for

Thousands and thousands of years as you know anthropologists so um how do we do it how do we stop it well let me we go to the balcony first and uh so you know you know one thing that I’ve been thinking about since our last conversation you know you talk about the

Repetition or repetitive behavior that gets generated by trauma and I can’t help but think about how Vladimir Putin was born in the wake of the siege of Leningrad of Saint Petersburg where you know like hundreds of thousands maybe a million people starved including his brother died his

Mother was tossed onto a pile of corpses so he’s born right in the wake of that trauma and then I think now he’s the Russian forces are besieging Kiev you know you know it’s like you jump from the siege of Leningrad to the siege of Kiev and Kiev

As a place is the symbol it’s like the Jerusalem it’s like the capital uh it’s like the the birthplace of Orthodox Christianity for Russians so it’s like it you know it’s like what causes us to replicate and repeat you know the same patterns that are buried there and uh and for me

As far as I can understand underneath all of it is uh deep feelings of humiliation the Russians have felt deep feelings of humiliation obviously the ukrainians um have felt deep feelings of humiliation their own traumas and it’s like and right now Russia the way the way um one responds to humiliation often in

A very unskillful distorted way is is through violence that’s you know basically from humiliation comes the need to use force that somehow that that will and and force just creates more humiliation and then brings counter Force and and somehow the only way out that I can think of is that

Is to meet Force with power and by power I mean the kind of power if if if humiliation if Force arises from humiliation genuine power arises from humility and the humility and and we’re seeing this right now in Ukraine in Europe around the world in the calls that you

Are have you know there’s a kind of power of unity of that’s emerging I mean even um as we speak right now you know it’s interesting that that the leaders of three European countries are in key right now they flew to key right in the middle of the siege the the prime

Minister of uh Poland of the Czech Republic and of Slovenia that’s that’s that’s power that’s not force that’s power that’s coming up and that’s what I call the third side that’s showing up that’s showing up to witness in a very real way and it sends a message it changes the field

And because in the end force can you know military force can accomplish certain things but in the end power the genuine power the latent power of us all which is in the end spiritual power is greater in the end it’s like water and rock you know water

Roads rock you know and uh so for me as far as like how do we break the cycle of humiliation by not adding to further humiliation because right now there’s a kind of a there’s so much outrage in the west and in the world around what’s happening

That there’s I can sensitive there’s a there’s a desire to humiliate Putin humiliate Russia all that will do is just uh keep the cycle going and somehow the way to break the cycle of humiliation is to step back and and ask where’s the way of power to

Counter Force rather than the way of force to counter Force what I love very much is like when you speak about the humility because I think anyway I think like humility is a great quality in life in general but it’s humility is connected to the knowing that I need to

Bow to life in order to learn and in a way you said that in humility comes with me being a student of life and not me being the one that knows how things are and I think that’s a very powerful uh opening I think um when it’s about when it’s about breaking

The cycle of trauma or um if breaking is the right word but interesting right you said you said um that there is humiliation what I also see like because here’s my process when I when I listen to you when you started to speak about Putin’s past

Immediately it feels like the two of us dive into like a space that we open up of sensing so when you said it I felt you and I also tuned in with like we both started to feel Putin right and I can’t do this when I when I when I

Make Putin and the the bad enemy I can’t do it because I don’t feel anything but if I allow myself to stay open in my own humility then I I can begin to feel and just with the trauma that you described of learning Crowders and Petersburg now

Um like there’s humiliation but I also think there’s a lot of fear that is so overwhelming that it becomes numbness and absence like the incapacity to feel so we we in a way sacrifice our capacity to sense and feel and we gain a kind of a level of protection

And and so I think yes there’s humility and I would also add there is a lot of unfelt fear because those circumstances are so scary and they’re existentially threatening that I think one one result is like closing ourselves down into a functional mode and then when you when you the way you

Started I felt wow that’s also part of the remedy and I think that’s also must be for you as a mediator one of the key tools is to practice some sort of Attunement to a situation in order to gain a deeper understanding and if that’s so so that’s

My question now if that so maybe you can speak a little bit about that because that seems to be a core aspect of becoming the remedy you know just in myself as I try and take you in the situation as someone who’s engaged in trying to help the parties find a way out

You know I can feel you know that you know the the feelings you know the you know like you can feel the shock The Suffering The you know the pregnant women killed that you just like all that’s produces you know I can feel the the fear the anger

But from a and From A Balcony perspective you can feel all those things include all those welcome them and then also trying it’s almost like that’s why I like the balcony metaphors you you’re you’re you go to a balcony you’re not you’re you’re connect it’s not to it’s not to

Disconnect it’s the it’s to connect it’s they get a larger View and then in the play It’s almost like you you zoom out for a moment from the from the picture so that you can zoom back into all the different characters and so who are the characters on the stage you know Putin

Is one and sort of Dive In and the only way to understand Putin is from within Putin you can’t you can’t uh you it’s not like you can study if you study Putin like like a scientist studies a beetle you have to know what it feels like to be a beetle you know

You it there’s this inner subjectivity there especially if you’re going to bring any influence to Bear because like to really ask the question what is really going on here where is it getting stuck and how do we get it unstuck and that in no you know that empathetic

Um that use of what I would call Strategic empathy it’s empathy for a purpose and the purpose is to find a way out to find a way to heal and it doesn’t preclude Justice or uh you know uh human rights or anything like that it’s it’s like if we’re trying in the play

People are stuck here and they’re just going around in a circle how can you write the play so that maybe this person steps here this person steps there this person steps there’s this person steps there and they start to move in a more constructive Direction it’s interesting because you’re you’re

Also saying something I love this because I think we are right in becoming the remedy because the question was how do we stop that vicious cycle and and I think the only way and I really believe the only way is to open up the inability to feel

Because for many people in the moment you can create an enemy you you’re protecting yourself so like the and then we talk about Russia or like but it’s not anymore that we are part in because many people think oh if I feel then I agree or then I

Agree to what’s happening or I become weak or all these ideas that are born out of trauma they are not born out of a real sensing doesn’t make us weak at all the opposite and I’m sure you you experienced this over and over again but there is an assumption that I cannot

Feel somebody who does terrible things and and that same thing I think that’s also what many the mystical teachings like many of the really trained Masters they weren’t weak at all but they were really dialed in so this this quality is I think one of the core elements that enough people can

Hold the space because when I listen to you so ever since I got to know you what I really loved about your way of of being in conflict is that you become a space that can host the conflict because if you need to externalize the conflict and

Then try to mediate them between them it’s never gonna work and I would love to hear your take on this because it only works if you become a space or the collective becomes a space that is bigger than the conflict but it’s very clear with the conflict and within the

Conflict so I would love to maybe you can speak a bit about holding a conscious space for the fragmentation yeah that’s that’s that’s that’s it uh you know if if I’ve found anything in 45 years of wandering around different War zones probably more than two dozen war wars in

The world over the last 45 years you know asking myself what’s the secret to peace the secret to peace is us and it’s us doing the inner work that allows us to host the conflict within us and then collectively to host uh to host it to create the spaciousness

And that’s that’s the name like I give that the name the third side to me it’s like conflict is always like two sides like right now it’s Ukraine and Russia and then the only question people are asking themselves is which side do I take right and I’ll take this thing

Well there may be another option which is to take the third side which is not a neutral in the middle the third side is the whole it’s the whole it’s what surrounds it’s that spaciousness that you’re talking about and the third side to me has at least three dimensions it’s both the

Community you know it’s like the worldwide Community is right now hosting you know watching witnessing this conflict witnessing it and then we have to learn how to witness it collectively witness and you and I have talked about that there is the that’s the external third side there’s the internal third side

Which are the people like within Russia and within Ukraine or who are who are you know the societies there that can actually those internal third-siders play an enormously important role in also creating space right now there’s a conversation going on inside Russia and a conversation going on inside Ukraine and then

There’s the inner third side which is you know the spirit you know it’s the it’s the uh and you know if I think of for example let me give you an example in South Africa you know how did apartheid end how did apart apartheid everyone thought that

That was going to go on for ever you know the the conflict between the blacks and the whites and the whites were had more power and whatever it’s I was in South Africa when Mandela was in prison just before he was released and everyone was thinking it

Was gonna go on forever and then I was there like five years later and it was a completely different South River what had happened here in that transformation the third signing out engaged you know the world was there you know the you know the different countries uh there

Were you remember there were University group I mean there were boycotts there were sanctions there was all the things that we see now today with with Russia that was going on the International Community was energized and the key was within South Africa there was a mobilization of the Civil

Society of the business and labor and women’s groups and Faith groups and leaders they all got energized and created something called the national peace Accord and then there is a spirit of the third side which in Africa was called Ubuntu Ubuntu is the The ancestral spirit and

Ubuntu means I am because you are we are that’s what Ubuntu means it’s the spirit of we and uh Mandela and tutu invoke that they were not just leaders of of one side Mandela was very explicitly a leader for the whole he made it really explicit all

Along that he wasn’t just fighting for the freedom of the blacks he was fighting for the freedom of the whites too and if you think about his leadership when he went to prison he was a very he had a kind of he was kind of a reactive

Personality he was a boxer you know okay I won’t get into a fight when he went into prison what he learned as he writes in his Memoir is he learned to search his own inner processes his own mental and emotional processes he learned to study himself and he realized that’s the beginning

That’s you know the balcony and then what was the first thing he did he started to learn the language of his enemies he learned Afrikaans and he learned their not just their language but their history their culture their history of humiliation and suffering because they’d been put in the very first

Camps that were called concentration camps by the British in the borough war in the early 1900s so he was able to he was able to Not react go to the balcony he was able then to put himself in the shoes of his enemies doesn’t mean he agrees with his enemies but he was able to do that and then when he got released from prison he was able to speak to them in their own language

Using their own history using their own culture speaking it you know putting himself in there and that’s how he was able to persuade them and then with the spirit of Ubuntu which allowed for forgiveness to kind of persuade his own people to start to heal the wounds and so there was the very

First Truth and Reconciliation Commission and so it’s it’s all of those combined he was able to um there’s all those all those aspects of the third side combined created the spaciousness within which a phenomenon that we thought wouldn’t change transformed itself it wasn’t that the conflict got resolved it’s this conflict

Transformed which is more important it changed its form it continues to this day there are tensions but it fundamentally changed and when I got back to South Africa in 1995 Mandela was if he’d been in prison for 27 years he was out he was the president

Of the country and the clerk who had been president when I was last there was now Deputy president how did that happen it’s amazing that’s amazing yeah but it’s it’s another you you you described it now as a process it’s exactly what we said before is like we need always someone or

A group of people it can host the fragmentation especially with like in a hot conflict that’s happening now like a war like that even the fragmentation is so strong that most of the people join a camp you know either I’m on this side and I’m

On that side and I you know I’m on the sides of the good ones but which is understandable but it’s not going to help the the conflict the conflict needs like a Consciousness that can embrace it without agreeing to whatever you know anything yet that’s not that’s the

Second step is the action the first step is the space and um and you described this beautifully but I think this is something that many people I think do not understand they’re still much more emphasis on the outer action to fix something then

On the on that space so now but now if I if I take that voice for a moment and I tell you yes well William all of this is great but once there is a war we need to protect the people we need to take care

Of the women and the children that are suffering or the whatever the refugees like we don’t you know we don’t have the time to see it now around the campfire and do some rituals we need to act and I would like you to if you can respond to that voice because that’s

Very predominant at the moment well I I absolutely agree with that voice we do need to protect the third side to me that what the third side does is the first thing it does is interrupt the fighting in order to initiate the talking and create the space for the talking and

Collaboration so the third side uh is the collective voice that says no this is unacceptable this shall not happen this will not happen in order to say yes to an alternative process so so you know the you know in the case of South Africa for example you know there was

A universal no from the world to this set this system of institutionalized racism and there was a no emerging from the society and not just from the blacks but from the whites from the business Community from theologians from religious leaders saying no this cannot continue so so there’s no question it’s not the

Third side isn’t just all that’s just sit around the campfire and talk you’ve actually got to you know protect and and the the third side is what stops the conflict from happening it’s like it plays the role of you know the intervening and saying no now the

Question is how do you intervene in a situation like like Ukraine how do you do it but there’s no question that the first role of the third side is to stop the violence to stop it so that the talking can begin so two things so how do we do this

Practically now like if you what a great idea is to stop the fighting because as you said it’s not so easy to just go in there and stop it especially when nuclear weapons are pointing in all directions of the globe the second thing is that I’m interested in is your take on

What’s actually inhibiting that the entire world’s getting up right now because it could also be that not only Europe or the NATO states are on their toes but actually the entire world would get up and say no way not doing this so like what’s the inhibition that because people and also people saying

You know like yeah it’s great because in Europe it’s now a big thing but in Yemen or in other places in Africa there are words all the time and the whole world doesn’t care so what is with this is this only an immune system because it’s so close to

Us so it’s a similar uh cultural background or what actually triggers that response and why does the world not get up all the time when there is a war no matter where it is and how much uh maybe economic interest or political interest is in that area maybe you can

Speak a little bit to that yeah it’s it’s one of the questions because you know there are I’ve been working there there are Wars going on right now there’s Wars going on in Yemen in Ethiopia in you know the rohingya there and they we don’t even hear about

Them anymore Congo right there’s so many so much and with the casualties the human casualties and the suffering arguably being in much greater levels even that the terrible horrific things that are happening right now in Ukraine and yet right now the world is glued you know and and particularly the

Western world but I think the entire world is glued on Ukraine it’s becoming a kind of a um a global tragedy and and it to me it actually I understand and absolutely can sympathize with the with a thought that hey why aren’t you paying attention to these other places

Absolutely we should pay attention to those other places too with no question about it I I that’s why I devote my time and there’s something about this it’s I’m just even trying to understand it I don’t know the answer to this question but it almost feels to me like

Like if you put this in a larger perspective and you look covid the pandemic happened and it was like it collectively psychologically for the collective human psyche it was like wow the same phenomena is happening in every part of the world there wasn’t there’s not one corner of

The world so it was like even though it was a it’s a you know it’s a tragedy it’s negative but it was like it was it’s like suddenly the world stopped and we were all feeling the same thing which to me was a really and then

Then there was a moment when it’s kind of like there’s like Humanity there’s like a a play going on and the play for the world that the world was looking at was covid and that was the main subject you know when the economic effects the obviously the you

Know people were dying the hospitals everything every everyone the whole world stopped for a moment and was watching the same play in a way because we’re each watching our own play and then suddenly The Whole World’s watching the same play and then it’s almost like we’re there watching

The same play of covid and then covid for most of the world took a dive suddenly societies were starting to open up again and then it’s almost like like kovid was going off the stage and then in came Russia and Ukraine and they occupy the whole Global stage again and

It’s like there’s there’s something happening here there’s a global play going on and I I had friends in in Brazil who you know who never follow Wars and just following this and they were saying to me come on Putin give us a break we just did kovid don’t bring in another play a

Tragedy you know but you know there are even like you know a little humor on it but it’s like but there’s a reality that that uh that now and maybe it’s a positive phenomenon the world is getting increasingly conscious that of its interconnection covid made us conscious during the connection

Someone gets sick in China and then suddenly someone gets sick in Copenhagen and someone gets sick in San Francisco and then someone gets sick in Cape Town and it’s like it it was kind of a very real experience of the interconnectedness and now with Ukraine it’s interconnected

Also because this is not just a regional conflict suddenly with would you have Russia in the west you have the two largest um stockpiles of nuclear weapons or you know facing each other and confronting each other and you have the possibility you have the highest risk of of a

Nuclear war since October 1962 in the Cuban Missile Crisis where that affects everyone I mean if a nuclear weapons go off it affects everyone and even it’s even short of that The Economic Consequences of this war affecting everyone of the the the oil prices they got the people

Using to fill their cars or whatever it is affects it in Liberia it’s affecting you in Brazil it’s affecting the United States so everyone’s feeling it and the question is can we take advantage of this moment of Universal attention to say can this be a wake-up call for us to realize that

Anywhere in the world anything happens it’s it’s our it’s our Collective responsibility to witness it in the way that you talk about it and then from that witnessing for skillful action to arise Collective action to arise which is the power that Collective power then in the end will be stronger than any Force

Exactly exactly and the and in the line of your events and like it’s the it’s in line with 20 or 30 years of time we have to develop a capacity or deal with maybe tens of millions or hundreds of millions of climate refugees in a way that are

That we won’t be able to deal with if if we don’t develop that capacity so that’s one question also is wow we have like this these are all science that we have to develop like a systemic Global capacity here which I deeply believe is true I mean I resonate very much with

What you’re saying and on the other hand also that we learn about the inhibition what inhibits that kind of response so both we learn what supports it and what inhibits it and um on the other aspect maybe you can speak to I don’t know how much you include this in your own contemplation

But it’s interesting that that covet and now this war are happening in a time when there is a significant conscious or unconscious rise of collective existential fear because I think slowly slowly it’s seeping in like climate change and it’s it’s like magnitude is slowly seeping into the collective consciousness

That before you know with some scientists were saying it and yeah okay but now that we can start to feel the the effects that are really happening already I think that so the that kind of level of threat that starts to be more obvious um is I think also an underlying factor

In this whole equation that you spoke about yeah you know you know it’s almost like as you’re speaking I’m almost imagining you know you know I’ve talked about the you know this image of the campfire right and to me it’s not as if you have to convene the campfire everyone is sitting around

The campfire right now and Inc it’s just that a lot of us haven’t been paying attention exactly we’re there you know all of humanity is around the campfire but a lot of us haven’t been paying attention and we’re either numbed or or just you know and now you know through these challenges like

Covid or Ukraine and you know climate were becoming sensitized we’re tuning Our Collective instrument to we’re waking up and we’re saying oh you know and and so to me that it’s an opportunity now to to you know it’s like the the fear is directing our attention to the fire

In the middle there and the question is can that fire be a transformative Force like fire is in which we can we can we can then say so how do we we can start to pay attention we’re all paying attention now in a way that we weren’t paying attention and now that we’re

We’re paying attention is there and this is what I think is is so needed is there a a vision of where the world could go in a positive direction because right now what our minds are filled with there’s a lot of negative Visions you know like okay you know climate you know

Extinction of all species nuclear war um you know pandemics um you know great power rivalries now there’s Cold War you know it’s cold war it’s the end of an era you know we have all these negative images which are possibilities they’re genuine possibilities the question is where the

Positive possibilities that are that can feel like yeah we could start to move in that direction can we wake up can we heal can Humanity heal itself can that be the question I mean looking with straight eyes at all the the suffering around the world and

All the ways in which things are going negatively can we and this is what I for me like people ask my me all the time you know are you uh pessimist or an optimist after all this and I I’ve given up saying I’m a pest I’m an optimist I

Right now I say I’m a possibilist you know because in a possibilist can see potential can see possibility you can see negative possibilities because you’re not like it’s not like oh everything could be great no you can see the negative ways we could develop all the negative potential but you can also

See the positive potential and then you can act accordingly to see if you can transform transform and heal the situation and move in the positive direction right and and uh that’s a great that’s a great moment so because like to first to have like this the Inner Space

That’s needed to hold both is already based on a certain development like that I can hold both levels of possibilities in myself and still because if I can hold both there must be a greater holding space because either I’m attached to hopefully it’s going to be

Good or everything’s going to be bad or I’m holding a space but what is that space what am I holding so that space seems to be a bigger awareness or Consciousness than all the possibilities that might unfold in in it and that that leads us to to two things I often say like

There is a horizontal and a vertical flow of in formation what does it mean William informs Thomas which means Thomas has a form of William inside I have a William in my nervous system that’s the one that I see and you have a Thomas in your nervous system that said

Thomas that you see and relation is there is the moment to moment update you know but we are updating each other or if we feel each other we update each other if we don’t feel each other we start living in the past so when we update each other all the

Time so then we are continuously fresh like that’s a creative relation and that’s what I experienced with you often so when we are in this so we are you know and and then there’s the vertical information that’s how we bring potentiality at least according to the mystical

Perspective the space allows us to bring information in that is not just informed by 2022. like there’s a higher information that comes in as insights deeper understanding like new possibilities that open up that I didn’t see before and and I think that’s very interesting and I would be I’m curious how you

Experience this also in some of your mediation practice but when you are a dialogue related to what’s happening in the room that there’s always a space for inspiration that comes in that is new in formation that has the power to create the new form a form that we don’t have yet you know

And I would love to hear what you think about then I uh what you’re saying is very sometimes very I resonate deeply with it because it that to me one of the more powerful questions to ask in conflict or in life is like what is wanting to happen here it’s not like

What will happen or what you know even like what shouldn’t happen or what should happen but what’s wanting to happen here what’s if you’re watching the play you know and you are actually you’re in the play it’s the same time as you’re watching the play you know I’m an anthropologist by

Training and you know anthropologists are participant observers well we’re all participant observers right right we’re all life is we’re participating we’re all responsible and co-responsible for this human play that’s happening right now including the tragedy right now in Ukraine we’re co-responsible doesn’t mean we’re the blame but we’re

Co-responsible we can respond to it right we we’re co-responsible and and we’re also if we we can cultivate the ability to observe at the same time which is go back and forth from balcony to Stage balcony to Stage balcony to stage and from that perspective then

Uh can we you know I mean I mean I love your information I was like you have my image in you I have a time I have a Thomas in me you have a William with you and and and that ability to to do that to to

Actually you know I have a Putin in me I have a zelenski in me I have everyone in me right exactly so so then the question is okay from that perspective now what’s what’s a way to dance here what’s the way they can dance with each other in a

Way that opens up space instead of the way that we’re we’re not dancing with each other we’re fighting with each other just closes down space closes down the heart closes down the and compassion empathy to me is the way to take these highly constricted situations and begin to slowly slowly slowly they

Open up and then space and then new possibilities show up and for me you know you’re saying you know where the information comes right it’s like if you if I put myself in alignment you know where do where does inspiration come from it’s like you know you you know like you get ideas

Um I mean I’m just reminded of a of an example like um uh uh a year ago uh not even a year ago nine months ago whatever I I I I got um the president of Afghanistan was gonna meet with the president United States um this was you know when the before

Before it was all gone and I I got a a request to come to Washington to to talk to the president of Afghanistan before he would meet with the president United States and I thought I was trying to understand that situation at that moment I was on a

Walk I’m saying what could he possibly say in this particular situation the war everything was collapsing whatever what was it that he could say and it just just it just arrived at me that you know he could ask for lots of things but he could simply say turn to the

President the president against turned to the president of the United States and say look I’ve come here all the way here from Afghanistan just to ask you one question and the one question is can I go back to Afghanistan and say that you are tell the people of cancer

That we have a friend in the White House just that and and uh and because because to change the nature of that situation the dynamic of that situation was can I go back and say and and you know it was just like it just arrived at me and then of course

That’s what I did I went to Washington and in fact that’s what he did and and it changed the you know it didn’t change the whole dynamic the whole play but it changed the dynamic of that conversation from the beginning to say you go in with your fixed positions no

To say can I go and say that you are our friend and it just changed the dynamic and that was something again just information that arrives it’s just like how do you shift how do you shift the dynamic of that situation exactly beautiful beautiful that’s exactly what I mean and I think

Like so that’s very powerful that you gave like a real practical example from that that you have played and then one more thing I will add and I’m curious again what what you’re thinking so when Thomas looks at William and I have Pavilion inside so I don’t know if

The biblium that I see is the William that is out there I only know what I perceive but trauma creates cracks in the screen like a computer screen and you have a crack so you see I see you but there is a crack and so so that’s one thing so the the

Trauma reduces our capacity to have to be informed by each other and that creates distance othering distorted perceptions fragmentation whatever separation the other thing is something that you said that I wanted to come back to is when that’s true between us then everyone whenever we think of President Putin or silinski or anybody

We have all of them all of us have them inside so what’s now the existence of a person is it the person in the body or is it the person in the body and millions or billions of people in which that person exists as an energy

Field because in us it’s just like it’s just the electromagnetic stuff happening in our brain that’s perception so we are like there’s always a particle in the wave field because we all exist in each other so how can we work on this like because that’s basically that’s how I

Understand the third side the third side is that we created and now but the third side has the same fragmentation inside so many millions of people in Europe still carry the the wounds of the second world war they did our grandparents or our parents were part of inside so it’s

Not that what we see is what’s really happening it’s minus the trauma Distortion that we all carry inside and I think that’s a very interesting question around the collective information field because how much can we influence the one that we any public person inside you know because how do I allow myself

To really create a relation because Mr Putin is not just out there he also lives in everybody inside that’s really fascinating so yeah I would love to see what do you think about this well I I like it and and you know it’s it’s you know we can see the

World in terms of particles or we can see in terms of waves right and we know that both exist right you know from physics you know it’s like it’s wave and particle at the same time so applying that to this kind of you know conflict that kind of metaphor at least

Then you know what if on the stage it wasn’t like individuals like Mr Putin Mr zielinski Mr Biden Mr XI you know all these people Mr macron no what if it was uh a wave and let’s imagine what if you saw just like there’s a field of humiliation and fear

Dense field here and the question was how does it dissolve how does it begin to dissolve and into you know humility and Trust let’s say you know and you know how does humiliation become humility and trust and fear become trust so it’s like and we actually saw our the task here is

Is is working on the energy field which is which is in in some way depersonalized it’s not particles it’s all waves right it’s just that so there’s all this humiliation humiliation that happened historically emulation whatever it is so how do we take this thick dark dark dense kind of mass and begin to

You know begin to hold it in that spaciousness right so what we’re holding in the spaces is not people anymore it’s it’s this it’s this dark dense feeling and how do we how do we transform That Into You know like dark clouds become lighter clouds or whatever it’s like how

Do we do that and to me that would be really if we started from that perspective then we might get to okay practically then what does it mean in dealing in people as particles but but start with the wave conception I think it would be really interesting and you know the thing is

There’s so much insecurity right now if you think okay there’s Universal insecurity the insecurity is being felt by ukrainians the intensely it’s being felt by Russians it’s being felt by all Europeans as being felt by everyone on Earth how do we how do we take insecurity

And move it towards a common sense of security Mutual Security exactly exactly exactly and the only way that I have seen so far is we have to create a relation here that is strong enough to include the this related aspect of the past and if we because only when the present

Moment has the power to onboard the fragmented reality which is postponed experience with this tremendous pain which is a holocaust the Second World War I first world war Cold War like all this stuff is still all the pain is still living amongst us it’s not nobody cleared that space up really it’s still

Living and I think if if our relation is strong enough then the fragmentation that might show up between us we will be able to handle it we have enough resource to handle it and the other thing is also that what you said is like because I love it because you as a

Possibilist you are living in the wave world because in the in the wave field there are possibilities once they become manifest they become a particle they become better they become substance so but it also means that if everyone if millions of Europeans have put in inside now

Or zielinski or President Biden or you or whoever then the Wayfield is determined by our state of consciousness that determines the possibilities that we are able to bring forth together and and I think if we can overcome somehow this notion of Separation that it’s happening there and I’m here I’m just

Reading my new news but they are doing this to wow my state of consciousness really matters because that helps to raise the con the collective into a possibility that we can’t have here we can only have here and or the governments are an expression of the collective Consciousness we can

Have the government only that we are able to have because of who we are as millions of I don’t know U.S citizens or German citizens so I think that interdependence that you spoke about at the beginning is so important that we are not separate entities but that we are individual and

Collective at the same time that’s it that’s absolutely it and the you know the this illusion uh what I think Einstein called a very persistent illusion that were these separate little entities alone just you know and obviously if you if if it’s if we’re just these little separate entities alone then of course

Everything is scarce from separation you know comes a feeling of scarcity and then from separation and scarcity you know it’s going to come fighting you know because you’re going to fight over here and and the truth is that’s that’s that’s one reality and the question is there’s another reality where actually we’re separated

And we’re connected we’re interconnected we’re all in this web and oddly enough there’s abundance you know what’s abundant one thing that’s abundant is like which is the key to moving from A to B here is respect basic human respect for the other sides for everyone’s dignity dignity for everyone respect because respect you

Know Latin respect to see to actually see the human being there to actually see and feel the human being there to see their value if I respect you I don’t have less respect myself right if I give you my food I may have less food but if I give you respect I

Don’t have anything less in fact you give me back more respect and then you know it’s just just a total positive something so to transform this insecurity and humiliation into a sense of safety if we can begin to respect which behaviorally the best way I know is to

Listen but to truly listen you know to listen not from within your frame of reference but as you were saying from within the other person’s frame of reference put yourself in their shoes you know really from within if we can listen that way and we can you know hold positive intent

Then slowly slowly slowly collectively we can witness from that perspective then then it can shift and we can create cycles of mutual respect and mutual safety because the truth is none of us are going to be safe and to all of us are safe that’s right and and that what you’re

Saying to put myself into somebody else’s shoes is work and I need to want this like I need to invest something because it’s not always easy because if it was that easy you know we weren’t talking now like like we are uh so we wouldn’t talk now because the the

The the the the part of me that has a hard time in in listening with such a quality to something that I maybe disagree or to you know a perspective that I I don’t like is work it’s something that I need to invest energy into and I need to be

Willing to feel the discomfort that comes with it it’s the hardest work that human beings can do and the little that I’ve learned from my own experience is if I want to listen to you I actually have to begin by listening to myself and listening to you know creating the

Space of everything that’s going on inside of me once I listen to myself there’s more spaciousness that I can actually receive you otherwise I’m just so you know if I’m listening to you but I’m actually I’m really not listening to you I’m just paying attend there’s this anger and

Fear and judgment and all these things that are going on there’s no space to take in exactly so this is the hardest work we can do but it begins if I want to respect someone else I have to begin by respecting myself if I want to listen to someone

Else I have to begin by listening to myself it’s not uh just uh kind of like other focused the work starts with self and then it expands up when you realize that self and other is an illusion and you you keep on expanding your sense of self so it includes the other

Okay exactly yeah yeah it’s pitiful because I often say that wisdom is the capacity is the amount of world that you can include in your actions you know like how much of the world can you include in the way you live or move so that’s beautiful what you said

Yes so this is sounds amazing I think we never need another conversation because we didn’t get to the part that the like the the mystical and the spiritual part and I see the time is already pretty Advanced but this was amazing I think also like the the individual

Anti-collective and the wave field and the particle I think that’s a lot for us to contemplate like because that is not just um ideas that that is literally what the collective is composed out of you know like we all hold we all live in each other and the more synchronized

That form is like if really I mean everybody that knows you if there’s a synchronization then that’s a very powerful field inside and outside and uh so I think what we what we spoke about today is is fantastic I I am very excited about uh our conversation and uh

It’s always very inspiring William and I would love to continue if you if you have time I know you’re busy whenever it is let’s bring in the the mystical a bit more next time let’s do that Thomas really you know I really really enjoyed it and it’s like yeah it’s it’s so much

Um I just want to say that to some listeners this may seem like wow waves verticals things like this but all I can say is that in my experience because I I try to land all this in very practical actions practical advice to leaders on what can be done now you know very

Practical so to me because things are so stuck we have to go way out and we have to take in other perspectives and then Zoom it right back into practically behaviorally what can someone do tomorrow morning in that direction and it works it works at least from my experience

It’s it’s maybe the only thing that can possibly get us unstuck from this from this traumatic uh trauma based you know mess that is behind all these dangerous conflicts that we see today exactly and when I whenever I listen to you over like over time and I listen to you I hear how

Important it is for you to take walks in nature to you know to really go to the balcony and contemplate your mediation processes and the possibilities as you shared with us before and so yes on the one end it looks like going very far out

But we don’t want to repeat the past and in order to bring in some future like something new we need to make a space for it otherwise we are just reactive and just recreating the same thing and and it and a certain dehumiliate or humiliation um that is happening and it will just

Create the same thing in the future again so what is like you know it looks like it solves the moment now but it’s it’s just the the first Cornerstone for the next catastrophe in 30 50 years so how can we do it differently that that

It’s it brings in a new Option and I think for that you know when you take a walk it’s not just taking a walk it’s also making space for something new to arrive and I think that’s very beautiful and important for the next practical step very much walking in nature and there’s

The beauty to me I’ve long notes that you know because I work in war zones and War things it’s very hard and tough and you take it in and beauty is the bomb beauty is the antidote Beauty somehow creates that spaciousness that allows me to integrate all these horrific happenings around the

World so maybe next time we should talk us about integration this is an interesting word follower thank you so much it’s such a pleasure every time again thanks for listening to point of relation with Thomas hooble stay connected and get updates about new episodes by visiting our website point of relationpodcast.com and by

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