The Papal-Imperial War of the Investiture Controversy (History of Everything Podcast ep 132)

Over the course of Christian History in Europe there was one conflict that would change the balance of power as we know it between the church and the state. For almost a Century, ideological and literal battle would rage between papal and imperial forces over who has the right to appoint members of the church. This would be the investiture controversy.

Travel to Germany with me https://trovatrip.com/trip/europe/germany-and-austria/germany-with-steven-bell-nov-2024

Travel to Peru with me https://trovatrip.com/trip/south-america/peru/peru-with-steven-bell-jul-2024

Discord: https://discord.gg/BJsRA6UpXx
Twitch: https://twitch.tv/Stakuyi

Check the podcast and other platforms for more content here:

Podcast: https://historyofeverythingpodcast.com/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/stakuyi

delicious coffee
Stakuyi – Lewis & Dark

Hello everyone stuck here and I’m Gabby and welcome back to the podcast my hoes welcome back and I’m going to tell you all this right now I’m very excited for some of the stuff that we have coming up we have okay so in may we are going to

Be going to Italy that whole trip is completely done so if you’re wanting to join us for a trip then you’re going to need to either hop on Peru while there’s still time or the trip that we have here to Germany just launched and there are still a couple spots that are available

For the $200 discount past that it will go up by $200 to 2,800 so if you want to get in on that while you can join us because we’re going to be having a ton of fun and speaking Christmas let’s talk about Christ wow what is segue no that

Actually that was okay not gonna lie that was genuinely probably one of the better Segways that I’ve had of literally anything that I’ve done because we’re going to be talking about something here that is um papal history it’s so funny that you would write a Papal History Podcast right as I was

Writing a Papal his Street podcast I was inspired it’s one of those things here again but it’s different were you okay so I’m writing one from my podcast on papal scandals and I asked him oh what was the investor controversy is that what inspired you literally it was so

I’m like you know what I’m G to do you’re doing a whole bunch of different things I’m going to do an entire Deep dive into the investor controversy which for anyone who is unfamiliar with that there was a time in which the uh the church was significantly weaker than what it would become

Like you know how we think of the Catholic church and like the big dominant power like the big church in the medieval period yes for a decent amount of its beginning it was actually much weaker than we give it credit for though it’s it’s it’s very interesting

Okay and I know that when I go into this that we’re going to be talking about another thing that is European history we’ve done a lot of that from stuff that is just what it is that we had written or ideas or things that were planned but

We have a whole bunch of other plans of other areas of the world that we’re going to be covering next like this next week’s episode that I plan on doing is going to be iben matuta who is essentially the Moroccan Marco Polo it is a very fun little story to go into

And it gets kind of wild because little spoiler alert he didn’t write down any of the stuff that he actually did himself he he he talked about his adventures Orly to another guy who then wrote it down so you can bet that there’s going to be a whole bunch of

Embellished stuff that is pretty wild anyway the investure controversy this is also something referred to as the investure contest or just like the dispute right this is something that was a conflict that went from the late 11th century like 1070 like 1076 or so all the way until the early 1100s like 1122

And this would occur between the papacy like the Catholic church and the Holy Roman Empire or rather I should say that in comparison to the full Holy Roman Empire it was specifically the dynasty of German monarchs that ruled red the Holy Roman Empire the salian dynasty which for anyone who remembers when we

Did our podcast episode on the hre specifically this is what I’m talking about here like Otto the papal conflict the issue between the Imperial house and the papacy this was something that was focused entirely around on the appointment of bishops priests people who like monks these kinds of things

Like the officials who would have been working in the church this was a practice that was called lay investure now Gabby you went to a religious school but I obviously know that the school that you attended was not Catholic Catholic yes nope so I I don’t know what

It is that you would have actually learned at that point in time about what specifically would have been happening here at this point but I’m pretty sure that your school since it wasn’t Catholic would have looked at this as one of the key examples of corruption that would have existed within the

Catholic Church potentially yes so the thing is kind of was or rather I should say this was a uh a blatant political move that was um that that was very obviously not something that was religious related and would create a bunch of problems for the Catholic Church good for the rulers not

For the church so in the podcast episode that I was writing basically the popes in and of themselves becoming Pope within that little like time frame essentially meant that you would probably lose your mind and they cycle through about seven popes from 896 to like 904 yeah because becoming Pope

Everybody it was so political right correct because it was all based around the same families as soon as you took this position it was just Intrigue like people were trying to kill you people were trying to get you to side with them people the popes literally lost their

Mind yeah no I would bet because a whole bunch of them end up getting like literally assassinated that is something that happened a whole bunch I mean in addition to being assassinated they did they did do a lot of dumb stuff a lot of them were so corrupt um yeah love that

It was going well for them the thing is is that it wasn’t just the papacy that was running into the same same kind of issues see the idea of lay investure is that the church wasn’t actually the the thing that had the power to go and appoint bishops priests and other

Officials right lay investure is where the king like or specifically the emperor like the Holy Roman Emperor that was the person that was going to be able to select the Bishops or the archbishops like the people who were going to be on the ground and providing all the

Religious services for an area and this was a huge amount of power that a secular ruler could have instead of just the pope like the idea of a bishop being not loyal to the pope but instead being loyal to that secular ruler that was massive and so the dispute that we’re

Talking about here was something that was very ideological it existed it for decades that would go on between all the varying popes like the gregories the Henry’s well Henry was actually one of the Emperors is this where there was the pope and then the antipop sort of kind

Of yes and antipop was raised when I was writing my episode there were so many points where oh yeah he became Pope but then this other guy also got appointed Pope by this other group and then also there was an anti-pe oh just wait yes there is going to be some antipopes when

You get get to one of these parts I’m pretty sure this is something that probably came up in one of your uh examples of just a controversy when this happens probably more than if if it was controversial I was on it but the story that we’re talking about is going to

Have massive ramifications political religious everything for literally centuries afterwards this is huge so okay background to all this we need to go back to the beginning of the hre sort of and when I say hre I mean not all the way back to Charlemagne I mean the reign

Of Otto the the Holy Roman Emperor who would rule from 962 to 973 of the aonian dynasty this was a guy who was a massive religious Patron he was someone who really wanted to promote his influence over the church and when he did this like all the donations that he would

Give this is something that would spawn something called the aonian Renaissance essentially what he did is that after he was coronated very quickly after he went and completely restructured how things were supposed to work inside of his kingdom like in the secular side of things and how things were going to work

On the religious side with the papacy and he claimed to have the right to create new entire like FS like these little essentially the Imperial territories within the Empire and to install handpicked Lords or Bishops it didn’t matter whether they were secular whether they were religious whatever he

Could go and create these himself to try and manage the lands and serve under him he would create a bunch of these Bishop Orcs which are the that’s literally like a Lord but it’s a bishop he would create monasteries he would create convents he would create schools all kinds of things

And this was huge to boosting Christianity’s presence and simultaneously boosting his own power beyond that Otto and the people that would follow after him would continuously consolidate their control by inter in in the church because remember this is Lay investiture they are able to appoint who is actually the

Person in charge so let’s say that they you know want to do a certain thing and the bishop of an area goes up to him and goes um Mr Emperor you’re not supposed to be doing that that goes against the teachings of the church you know what he could do what could he

Do you’re no longer a bishop buddy wait hold on is Otto is this like Otto the great like Otto with Pope John you know John John the 12th in the in the 12th century yeah 962 yeah yeah 962 yes oh my gosh I do know this one yes so as you

Can probably imagine this guy he um he didn’t want to ever take no to like take the answer of no he just would do whatever it is that he wanted and he specifically was the guy who was appointing all these Bishops so they pretty much let him do whatever it is

That he wanted you know that’s just that’s just kind of how it happened and that selection and appointment process of lay investure that was something that was going to completely overwrite the ability of the popes and the archbishops and the others to do the same because they could not interfere with the

Secular rule of law that he established at least for a Time fast forward a little bit of time and you have the Holy Roman Emperor Henry iiii who is the second salian Emperor and he was pretty famous for being a very religious guy especially his public displays of being super religious and

All of his piety also the fact that he intervened a lot in in the church which was pretty much every Holy Roman Emperor well the thing is if we go back to Otto right because what I was writing in my episode was essentially that Otto got Pope

John like J Pope John got Otto’s help to Stave off the king of Italy correct and through doing that he had to appoint him like crown him emperor of the hre yes and from then on even though John subjects were pissed because they made another German in charge of the hre

Basically it was too late and Otto had all of his power and then John you know he kind of lost yeah he lost a lot yes yes he did and I mean that’s the thing it’s kind of a double-edged like they removed uh Pope John and put Pope Leo in

Charge correct of the church yeah and what ends up happening from that scenario is it creates a double-edged sword because it creates a reciprocal relationship where the Holy Roman Emperor has to be crowned by the pope but the Pope can only exist by being supported by the emperor so it creates

This very toxic relationship between the two where they are both they both need each other but they want the other person to do exactly their will exactly and as time goes on the church just really starts to push back on that yeah that’s that’s the whole point of the investure controversy of what

We’re going to be getting uh what we’re getting into so Henry III he goes and appoints Bishops in ailia in Milan in Rena in Italy and when he does this it ends up pissing off a lot of people right because it’s not we’re not exactly pissing off a lot of people at this

Exact point but he does these things and then immediately afterwards there is the sinod of sutri something which he had to personally go down to into Italy and he had to intervene in a Papal dispute between you asked about antipopes three different rival papal claimants was this

One of the things that you went into on your side here gab I’m not sure I don’t think so okay well I’m kind of glad here because I’m gonna go ahead and explain it then because oh my God was this thing a massive mess okay so that sin of sutri

That I was talking about that was a or Suri actually not even sure how i’ pronounce that this was a council that was called in order to resolve the massive disorder within the papacy so there was a faction in the church that wanted Henry III to intervene to try and

Fix the conflict and also at this time he needed to come down and get actually crowned by the Pope in an official ceremony so in Autumn of 1046 Henry III who at this point was not King of the Romans he was just King of the Germans

He went down south he crossed the Alps with a large army accompanied by his own private retinue of secular Lords and also the Bishops like the Lord Bishops that served under him the varying Prin of the Empire and he had two goals in mind from this one he wanted to be

Crowned as the Holy Roman Emperor not just King by the Pope in Rome and also the bigger problem from that is that he really needs to make sure that the guy who was in charge the pope was not someone that was going to end up being questioned he needed to have a firm

Grasp and control of that title because if he got appointed Pope or not appointed Pope if he got crowned holy Roman Emperor but then the pope got overthrown and then they were like oh well we were just going to throw out everything he ever did like what they

Did to formosus remember yes then he wouldn’t have legitimacy and it would create a whole entire conflict and everyone would question if he was actually the Holy Roman Emperor because this guy had no power to do that exactly yes that is literally the problem here

Oh my gosh I loved I love this kind of drama yes there is a lot of drama here it just immediately goes into it okay so Rome right at this time it’s in a basically a state of open Warfare between varing different Noble factions exactly as you talked

About with Pope John what was going on in this time is that the papacy and Roman general was not nearly as peaceful as it is today in the transitions of power um the the papacy the pope was essentially something that was controlled by different noble families and they kept on for years cycling

Between the same noble families for who would end up being in charge and there was outright Warfare that was going on between three candidates uh over who was actually in charge there was a pope that ruled at St Peters there was another at the Lin and a third at St Mary major and

Two of them one of them being Benedict the 9th who is one of the sons of the counts of Tusculum and the other being Sylvester III of the keni clan they were like literally rival families that wanted to take over the entire papacy they were big players in the whole

Nobility scene of Rome the third guy though he’s a little interesting this is Gregory v 6 and his situation is really weird because I kid you not he literally had purchased the title from Benedict the 9th two years earlier okay I loved when they would literally just sell the

Title um because you know if I existed in a time where I could potentially buy it I did cover that though it was guy he I think he sold it to his father-in-law or something but I would sell it to but the thing is he did take it back after

He sold it he took it back and then he lost it again and he was messy he was so messy yeah the whole thing that um for anyone who’s unfamiliar with this case what ends up happening in the case of uh Benedict I nth and with Gregory is that

Uh so he bought it from him in good faith and what that means is that he didn’t actually have the money to be able to pay benedict for his title it was pretty much a promise of like hey once I’m you know in charge I will pay

You I think it was Benedict the 11 sorry oh yeah because that’s a later one this is a this is another one that happened okay this happens multiple times Jesus Christ nobody named Benedict or Gregory should be Pope it is law literally early church history is hilarious in just how

Broken so many things are um I just I I I find the stuff absolutely hilarious did you write about that one guy who um he chose the name Pope Julius not after the previous Pope Julius but after Julius Caesar no I you told me about it

You told me about it but I have do not have that in here because it’s not part of the uh the investure damn it so okay um what ends up happening here is that each one of these guys holds a specific part of the city and you’re going to

Wonder okay wait what the hell why does Benedict control part of the city when he was supposed to have had the title of Pope bought by Gregory already well we’re going to get into that so Henry goes and meets Gregory at uh pen Pienza

I think is how I would say that for the title for the place and he was received with full honors at this time he decides that a sinod is going to occur at sutri which is a place north of Rome that is supposed to be beyond the city where

Things are going to be significantly less violent before an assembly Gregory went and testified that he had quote in all good faith and simplicity purchased the papacy from Pope Benedict the 9th in 1044 after the departure of Benedict the bishop of Sabina had also declared himself Pope as Sylvester III oh yeah

Gregory Benedict and Sylvester and poor Henry thei was like who the is Pope yeah so so here’s the thing though because of this whole dispute that would end up breaking out over the course of who was actually in charge of what was happening Benedict never got his

Money so Gregory couldn’t get him his money which meant that Benedict ended end up coming back and instead saying that he was still Pope I in my thing they said that it was because he wanted to sell it because he was going to marry his cousin but then his cousin turned

Him down so he came back and he was like no I still want to be Pope yeah and apparently he never got his money anyway oh shoot and his cousin turned him down for marriage you would think back in the day there weren’t many options for marriage right so like if your own

Cousin was like okay I’ll marry you and then they said no oh my God literally Loveless and poor got no maidens got no maidens got no maidens guess I’ll be po at least he had a fallback plan you know yes so this Council okay it goes and summons the three different popes

Right and natur they are anti-popes at this point like there is no real legitimate pop it seems and both Sylvester and Gregory attend this the claims of all three popes being the pope are very quickly dismissed like there’s no way that they’re going to be regard

Able to regard any of these guys is legitimate Sylvester gets stripped of his Rank and he gets exiled to a monastery Gregory ends up resigning with his words being and I quote I Gregory servant of the Servants of God do hereby ajudge myself to be removed from the

Pontificate of the Holy Roman church because of the enormous error by which simonal impurity has crept into and viated my election meaning because he literally bought the position this was something that was deemed to be simony something that was not allowed by Church law and thus yeah he he was not going to

Be legitimate and the council ends on December 23rd a form of the council was then repeated in Rome the following day which would completely dismiss Benedict Henry then goes and fixes things by selecting his own Confessor the bishop Sader I think is how I would say the name it’s the bishop of Bamberg

To be in stalled as Pope and he gets the name Clement II which fun fact I’m going to say this in here this is hilarious when I looked into this that guy Benedict he comes back again and tries to renew his claim on the papacy in 1047

Literally that same year when Clement II died which was a year after he was put in power in the first place but it didn’t last long though because Henry the like drove him my away he was like get out did not work at all so okay also

The Pope that they installed died like shortly after that 10:47 time frame though yes but Benedict didn’t become Pope a fourth time although it would have been cool it would have been cool if he did yeah so none of it really worked out for any of them there was a

Lot of rapid changes in power which is what happens in a medieval period when it’s a bunch of really old men that get elected into a position no it was literally like one guy became Pope and I think it was something insane like two days later he was dead that’s how bad it

Was yep so okay three consecutive successors to Clement II you had damus II Leo the 9th and Victor II they all get selected by Henry thei from a pool of loyal German Bishops like people that were specifically going to be German and loyal to him as heads of the church and

They would rule essentially until 1057 which is not really a long time by the time that Henry II would die in 1056 the Holy Roman Emperor and from that the Empire was pretty much Supreme Over the church and papacy this was something that was undeniable the secular control

Of everything that was I mean that was absolute the Empire controlled the church’s highest office which brings us then to the 11th century reforms because at the time that all of this is going on in the early 11th century there is a reform movement one of the early ones here within the church

Or I guess middle ones within the church that is trying to fix things and by fix things I mean not have it so that a Emperor or King can just Walt in and get and go hey uh you didn’t let me do this thing that I wanted to do so you can no

Longer be Bishop what they wanted to do and this was a movement led by the papacy and supported by a bunch of prominent Church figures was remove the church from being dependent upon the secular institutions from removing secular interference from allowing the papacy as God’s like representative on Earth with the Pope to

Actually be superior over other secular rulers the papal claims of authority over monarchs and Lords is something that would specifically come at least in part from the Donation of Constantine which oh my god do I need to explain this for a second and I think that Gabby

If you are not familiar with this exact document I had a teacher a a professor back in college that put this like it’s it’s my favorite way that I have ever seen anything phrased with any kind of historical document this I’m trying to remember the

Exact wordings of of what it was that he did was it Dr tubs yes it was Dr tub oh my God you never sh about Dr tubs you should check in with him I should check in with him I wonder if I could get him

On the podcast you taught me so much you taught me so much and now I torture my wife with that knowledge that you gave me I should send him a message and invite him onto the podcast that could be fun my old history Professor you would love that so okay the Donation of

Constantine was a medieval forgery it was a forgery of a document dated to the 8th Century that claimed that it was an original 4th Century document in which the Roman emperor Constantine the Great like yeah the Constantine that converted the Empire to Christianity that he granted supreme authority and spiritual

Power to the church over secular rulers so over the king over the Kings the document claims that in the like year 315 or to 317 Constantine was cured of leprosy by Pope Sylvester the first and in gratitude for this he surrendered his power and the lands to the pope and the

Pope then generously gave that power back which allowed the emperor to actually rule did Constantine have leprosy no no there’s literally lying no straight lies this is genius honestly straight up lies and the cont the story behind this for how this whole document even comes about in the first place is

Freaking hilarious so okay um the and I’m GNA kind of try to explain part of this at least how Dr tub had explained it in here uh the Donation of Constantine was most likely written and then used to coers pep in the short who was the King of the yes I know epithets

I freaking love epithets Stephen the short I am average thank you very much slightly above okay you’re not 6 foot you’re like 5 5 okay that’s like the that’s that’s the disappointing number because you were close but not close enough GE thanks I have nothing against

Height I just have to make fun of you for that one okay sorry to anyone who’s 511 I love you Mah anyway so this thing was likely written in order to convince pep in the short to give the lands that he had conquered from the Lombards to

The church under Pope Steven the second and so what what what happened is right is that the the pope asks Pepin for help because the Lombards are basically trying to take everything over there within around the papacy and he wants to drive them from the lands Pepin comes

Down with an army and completely shatters them and uh and the way tub explained it is that he goes oh thank you thank you so much for your help thank you for this I I’m so eternally grateful and guess what by this document that we’ve actually found here buried in

The vault oh wait ink is still wet uh shake shake shake shake shake shake shake yes by this document ancient document 300 400 years old that we have found we have we have supreme authority basically I’m not saying it ex exactly and he he explained it so much better

The whole class I still remember that point was laughing their asses off but that’s basically what happened right yes the sure this donation was written specifically to con him to come down and help and then after Pepin died it was also used again which didn’t really work

To nearly the same degree but they tried with pepin’s son Charlamagne so they just kept trying to scam people yeah it was used as a document specifically in order to be able to coers the feudal Lords who Pepin literally could not read he was completely illiterate so this

Document this wet document that is being waved in front of his face he has no freaking idea what it says so guys this makes War ofy Barons so much more real okay so guys we did a war of the Barons uh lar event in South Carolina that was

Hosted by Fallon fair and Stephen was a baron so if you were a baron and you weren’t part of the church you could not read yeah okay so while we’re on this trip all of the church like I was part of the church we have to like translate

For them write for them make contracts and all they had to do is like squiggled their name because they couldn’t read or write and I wrote stevea Love Letter you know be the none that I am and I give it to him and we’re in a group of people

I’m like you know trying to be all queued because we’re doing uh what what is the fancy writing calligraphy we were doing calligraphy with like literally ink and parchment paper and I pass him this note you know to my Baron and he goes he holds it up first of all and it

Was inappropriate he holds it up and he goes I can’t read this and so the abess literally the head mother of the church comes over and it’s like I can translate for you when I tell you I almost died sorry I feel like it was kind of

Relevant to the story and you all needed to hear that and if you want to um see what the letter says I will put it’s it’s on my Instagram just go to the war of the Barons it was very inappropriate yeah so that I and that pretty much was true for

All this pepen could not read his son Charlemagne also could not read now charlot manne couldn’t be convinced to nearly the same degree but he was still going to be the champion of the church and this is something that the church would continuously use over the like

Over the course of the next like six 700 years 800 years to prove their supreme authority until it was eventually proven to be a forgery by the priest and Scholar Lorenzo Vala in literally the year 1439 so this document from 7 like 58 D was used for a whopping 700 years to

Convince people before they finally went back and looked it and went hey wait hold on guys we’ve been bamboozled this is fake I feel like they said Bamboozled but okay so yes this is the reason why if you’ve ever heard the term the Papal States right where the pope is literally

A ruler that rules over lands across central Italy that is what would happen like this land was supposedly granted that he have the ability to rule this but anyway the church and its people according to the reformers they over time had become oppressed by the varying different German kings the the the

Varying different Franks the ostrogoths vizigot all these different people here since the time of Constantine that these secular rulers had forced control of ecclesiastical property and had kicked them out of their office they could do whatever they wanted and that this was not how it was supposed to be that they

Didn’t actually have the authority they targeted specifically the investure issue that was that was facing here anything that was related to secular Powers being able to intervene within the church and in particular the thing that they hated the most from this was the practice of simony as well as

Marriage of the clergy something that specifically was already prohibited by Church law like you were not supposed to be able to do it but there was very little control that the church could actually imp Clement see the whole thing with clerical marriage is that at this time it wasn’t necessarily Catholicism

Just yet uh it it was Christianity but what we would think of as like the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t really properly exist until after the Schism and so there are a number of different priests and other people that would literally go and get married and and they would do

This and it’s not a good idea for a priest to be able to get married in a noble society that potentially a priest could get married to some Noble’s child and then from there get power yeah literally power and also wrapped up in the uh the the Noble’s Affairs I have a

Question for you yes if you were a priest and I was just you know some girl would you marry me uh no I would take my vows and everything very seriously that’s the thing if i’ if I’ve promised no if I’ve promised to specifically do something no

Steve you kind like like not marry me yes I can gab so if okay okay were you not the one that made the video in which you claim to be a bride of Christ and you pushed me away but if we were in like transported back in time and then

You were unfortunately forced to be in the church or something turned into a priest you wouldn’t marry me I literally wrote you a love letter as a nun at our LARP event no no no Gabby you you changed things around here you asked if we were like back in time like that’s

Assuming that I be born in that time period And I I have the same convictions I do now no I mean let’s let’s you’re changing the goal post to this with the time travel change your M answer yeah because I don’t know what circumstances would have me involve me priest I’m

Assuming I’m only doing it and then leaving the church if you grw up in that time period right yeah you will not marry me but if you time travel back you will marry me yes that’s kind of iffy you’re not really consistent about your principles are you where’s the integrity you

Bastard anyway continue you bastard why do you do these things to me I had some free time okay anyway the other thing was simony which was literally as I said the uh the sale of ecclesiastical positions this was something that was heavily criticized for leading to large scale immorality

Within the church because you could literally buy your position you could become a very power powerful Bishop through paying enough money and simony was a very common practice in medieval Europe especially with all the different feudal Societies in which if you had a a person that was newly invested in their

Position as a church official they would want to repay the person who had appointed them to that position sometimes this was literally in the form of money so that’s where it would actually be payment or it would be for political favors like you put me in this position and I will literally do

Whatever it is that you want that sort of thing that whole thing goes Way Beyond what church law was supposed to allow and as a result of this subversion simony was very heavy heavily rallied against over the course of the 11th century by these popes by Clement

II and Leo the 9th that this was one of the again major causes of corruption so okay the 11th century popes which included those being appointed by Henry III they really want wanted to fix these issues and Pope Leo theth actively wanted to codify law like he wanted to remember

What I said that Christianity at this time was not nearly as structured as it would later be there was a lot of different variants around he specifically wanted to structure Christianity was there was too many beliefs and heresies that were all around it that could potentially could

Lead to Greater issues that or rather greater issues that it wouldn’t lead to nearly as much people control so he propped up the papacy as being the sole judge on Christian doctrine no King could decide what was Christian or not or what was true theology no one else

Could nor could any of these other varying little religious movements around the parts of Western Europe no it was specifically the papacy that had the sole authority to do this and that is what they were pushing these actions of course naturally pissed off the Byzantine emperors who you know

For centuries had literally seen themselves as the true rulers of Christianity I had a question so why couldn’t the king because the king had the biggest armies right the popes at this point did not so why could the king just be like I’m actually the ruler of

The religion now and then you know threaten them with violence I don’t know just a thought oh great question because that’s what I would do I just shut this down man it’s getting messy just wait until we get to talk about Henry IV and you’re going to see exactly what happens

Is that when you reject the pope literally here’s here’s the thing about feudal societies Gabby it is a top- down structure of a pyramid and the problem is is that you would think that in a pyramid the bigger the base the more stable it is but it was always a case

Where the nobility and people under you in the pyramid are constantly trying to chip away at the top and around themselves in order to climb the social ladder higher they want more Authority they want more Independence they want more everything so if they have the opportunity to go against someone on

Religious grounds they’re going to do so and that’s exactly what is going to end up happening and we’re going to be talking about so okay in response to Henry III’s installation of popes back during his Imperial Reign Nicholas II who was again one of these big reformer popes he

Issued a papal bull in 1059 specifically out La secular interference in the appointment of popes by assigning the authority of papal selection exclusively to an electoral assembly of seven Bishops which can you guess what the name of this is no the College of cardinals okay so the the thing that

Exists to this very day the thing that that elects the popes right yeah this came into existence specifically because the papacy was freaking pissed of all the kings or really the emperor continuously interfering and appointing whatever popes they wanted that’s so funny because in my episode one of the

Guys um he was buddy buddy with the College of Cardinals and I was like oh that’s so crazy why did he think being friends with the College of cardinals will make him po well now I know now you know so all right this happens right and the papal Reform movement effectively

Surges after the installation of Pope Gregory iith this guy was a huge defender of church Authority he wanted to protect the church from secular Powers over the course of his entire life and he fought for this hard he would continuously try to reform papal superiority and make sure that it was

Going to be the thing that was going to be the leader of the church and not you know the emperor the policies that he would uh end up putting forth these are the things that would end up becoming known as the Gregorian reforms you know from the name Gregory so Rory and his

Supporters were especially concerned with well what had been a problem here before with everyone else lay investure and they wanted to challenge that concept as papal Imperial tensions were only increasing in 1074 Gregory VII who would did not want to compromise at all in the fact that the church was

Supposed to be superior over the secular world he asserted that church officials could only be installed by the pope and demanded that any secular rulers whether they are a count a Duke a king or an emperor it does not matter they had to obey this policy the following year he

Would go and write his dictus Pape which is a list of 27 statements that would define the powers of the papacy and from this he would declare the church was superior to the state the pope was Supreme over both he was entitled to reject Bishops and Kings if either of

Them were un fit for office he had supreme authority now naturally of course uh the secular rulers didn’t really care about this and for Henry IV the young son of Henry III now he didn’t uh he he he did not like this one bit and the thing is it didn’t really matter

To him he ignored it once the whole Regency issues were uh issue was resolved in 1065 since he became king technically speaking when his dad died when he was only 5 years old uh Henry ivth would then face constant challenges and revolts all over his kingdom most

Notably in Saxony and Northern Italy and these were all revolts against him trying to centralize Authority specifically under him the big way that the emperor would control things in this time as we’ve already talked about was specifically through investure and simony and political patronage marriage these kinds of things Henry would only

Make the pap Imperial tensions worse when he would install new archbishops in fmo Milan and spaletto in 1075 which pissed off the pope so much that he threatened Henry with excommunication Henry didn’t care though he knew that you know all these things happen that even with the Pope threatening to excommunicate him this

Was just another local Revolt this was just another challenge to his kingship like everything else so he goes and assembl a imperial host something of Imperial supporting Bishops and clergymen at the sen of worms in January of 1076 and there he and the assembly renounce their allegiance to the pope

And call for his abdication they basically say that he Gregory I 7 is a false Pope and in response to this Gregory goes and excommunicates Henry oh my gosh yes here’s the thing about excommunication and you studied a lot of this here when you were when you were looking at the

Thing for your episode I’m sure and by study I asked you for anyone who’s unfamiliar with what happens with excommunication um you are basically kicked out of the church and in the Medieval World you can’t be forgiven anymore like you don’t get any more Grace from God yeah there you are you

Will not be able to get into heaven no communion no nothing any everything is supposed to be kind of done through the lens of God and the church so that means that all of the vassals all of the merchants literally anyone and everyone across the Empire is forbidden by the

Church from being able to obey the German King which is so interesting though like how they took excommunication so seriously um because have you guys been to a Catholic Church you know what I’m saying recently I’m not Catholic and when I went to church with Steve who is Catholic you can’t do

Communion and everyone just kind of stares at you if if you don’t know what you’re doing so I could not imagine back in the day not being able to like partake in the religion would be terrible the big thing that would happen with it is it’s not even just you if you

Excommunicated if a rule gets excommunicated what would end up happening later on as it would develop and the papacy would gain more power is that they would outright stop the bishops from being able to give communion to anyone within the kingdom really which means that Not only was the

Ruler destined to go to hell essentially like they they would not be able to perform rights they would not be able to do anything that was necessary for the afterlife that this means that all of the regular people the Nobles everyone within that Society was damned did that happen every time or

Just sometimes throughout history because I’m actually curious to how how many excommunications there have been but there have been quite a number cuz I looked into excommunications cuz I wanted to write on excommunications at first and then a lot of the things that I was reading were saying oh the king

Couldn’t do it so the PE he lost the people’s respect typically yeah it wasn’t just the loss of respect though that’s a that’s a really lightwe of phrasing it he lost their support entirely because he was literally the thing that was standing between them and salvation at that point in their eyes as

How they view it religiously that’s terrible yeah so again Christians across Europe were prohibited from obeying him and a lot of his supporters who had supported him for years retracted their allegiances and instead threatened to overthrow him Henry’s political crisis would intensify when a group of these influential Lords of Imperial

Territories would issue him an ultimatum demanding that Henry needed to submit to the pope or he had to abdicate his throne and over the next several months he would face increasing and significant opposition within the kingdom and he would have to maneuver his politics and public appearances to try and say no I

Am not going to give into this I am strong I am great I will not have to listen to the pope because I am the true authority of Christians essentially and it didn’t really work because Gregory supported the ultimatum and threatened the the the emperor not

With having the next Emperor be his son and by you know his by by Blood by hereditary succession instead the next ruler would be elected and that the Nobles would then have the authority and ability to do this and so naturally as Nobles go as you

Know very well how it is that they act um they’re going to want to depose the king in order to be able to take more power for thems and so Henry IV being faced with a very real possibility that he was going to be deposed in just a few

Months and with very little support all across Germany he decided that he was going to have to do something drastic he was going to go to Italy directly and while most of the passes over the Alps were being guarded by his opponents since there were little revolts that

Were all over the countryside here for him he managed to find one that could be bribed in order to allow him to get through and so in December with a group of only around 50 people including his wife and son like literally his baby his infant son he began to move southwards

Chroniclers would report that the winter of 1076 through the 7th was one of the harshest they had ever seen and Henry had to literally pull a Hannibal and cross the Alps so Lampert of hurstfield is where uh like is one of the more reliable sources that we were able to find here

That talk specifically about this incident and it goes and I quote he therefore hired certain natives of the region who were skilled and well accustomed to the rugged Summits of the Alps they were led to his on or they were to lead his Entourage over the Steep Mountains and the huge mass of

Snow and to smooth the unevenness of the path by whatever means they could and for those who were following when with these men as their guides they had with great difficulty reached the summit of the mountain there was no possibility of advancing further for the mountain side was precipitous and so they said

Slippery because of the icy cold and seemed to rule out entirely any hope of descent in that situation the men tried to overcome every danger using their own strength now crawling on their hands and feet clinging to the shoulders of their guides and also occasionally when a foot

Slipped on an ice surface falling and rolling down for a considerable distance at last with difficulty and for a time at serious risk of their lives they reached the plains the queen and the other women who were in her service were placed in the hides of oxen and the

Guides who had been hired to lead the Expedition dragged them down behind them some of the horses they lowered down the mountain side by means of certain contrivances others they spanel and dragged down but many of these died while they were being dragged down the mountain and very many were crippled

Very few were able to escape the Peril safe and sound so literally they had to climb over the mountains and in the process he took his kid oh yeah he took his literal baby and okay and they lost like a whole bunch of their horses was

The baby okay yes all good so news of his arrival soon started to spread around Italy and the pope was afraid thinking oh God the emperor is literally here he has brought an army maybe he’s here to capture me maybe he’s here to kill me we don’t know so the emperor did

Have a lot of supporters amongst the Italian nobility which would allow him to raise an army to attack the pope potentially so a Woman by the name of ctis Matilda took Gregory to her castle at kulsa where they would have to wait and see what Henry was planning on doing

And on January 25th 1077 with a blizzard fully raging around him Henry would arrive at the gates of kosa and here is Gregory’s own account of exactly how that happened it was written just a few weeks after the incident quote finally he came in person to kosa where we were

Staying bringing with him only a small retinue and manifesting no hostile intentions once arrived he presented himself at the Gate of the castle Barefoot and clad only in wretched Woolen garments beseeching us with tears to Grant him absolution and forgiveness this he continued to do for 3 days until

All those about us were moved to compassion at his plight and interceded for him with tears and prayers indeed they marveled at our Hardness of Heart some even complaining that our actions savored or savored rather of Heartless tyranny than of chastening severity at length his persistent Declarations of

Repentance and supplications of all who were there with us overcame our reluctance and we removed the excommunication from him and received him again into the bosom of the Holy other church it’s like the um prodal son is that what it was called yeah so literally the emperor shows up with his

Entourage crying and pleading outside of the of the gates in not like the fine dress of a king literally in Woolen cloth like just the the cheapest roughest cloth that you could imagine showing that he was repenting to try and get forgiveness and so before he was

Absolved of his sins and had the excommunication removed from from him Henry had to promise Gregory that he was going to be better quote and gave the following oath I Henry King promise to satisfy the Grievances which my archbishops Bishops Dukes counts and other princes of Germany or their

Followers may have against me within the time set by Pope Gregory and in accordance with his conditions if I am prevented by any sufficient cause from doing this within that time I will do it as soon as that I may further if Pope Gregory shall desire to visit Germany or

Any other land on his journey thither is sojourn there and his return then he shall not be molested or placed in danger of captivity by me or anyone whom I can control this shall apply to his escort and retinue of all who come and in his service moreover I will enter

Into any plan I will never enter into any plan for hindering or molesting him but will Aid him in good faith and to the best of my ability if anyone else opposes him so yeah that that whole section here like everything it is that I describe it’s a whole series of quotes

From the different Chronicles that are talking about this shows up for this CLE Castle crying his heart out begging for forgiveness right and he gets it and in exchange basically has to promise he is not gonna try to overthrow the pope and kidnap him like had previously happened

With a whole bunch of different popes I mean honestly that’s a fair that’s a fair exchange it’s a fair argument you know right once that happens the pope goes and holds a a mass he gives communion to Henry the whole excommunication is lifted and they have dinner together and according to another

Chronicler about this the emperor was in such a bad mood during this time that he refused to touch his food and just grind his fingernails the entire time in the table why was he in a bad mood because he literally just had to give up all

Mind you this is a guy G he had to gravel yes he had to gravel that was his fault I know but this is a guy guy this is a guy who has been King Emperor he has been the ruler since he was 5 years old he has known literally nothing but

Power that is that is him entirely is literally just being violently humbl like they snatched his wig yes very much so and with the final blessing he went back home with his supporters the problem was is that these actions this whole thing taking place was going to completely shift how medieval politics

Was going to function it was going to completely change the balance of power by submitting to the pope Henry had acknowledged that the pope had the right to depose secular monarchs before this wasn’t really a thing what remember what he said is that the pope was going to support the people

Trying to overthrow the emperor that the pope would call for the emperor to be elected not have it passed down so how do they check the power of the Pope after all this exactly exactly because there is no way the pope could be like the most powerful man and it not go orai

Because we saw what happened with the King being the most powerful man and it went orai that is precisely what happens well the thing is we know for a fact that these popes weren’t as Godly as they thought because if you look at the papal scandals um yeah know yeah yeah

Which for anyone when hears that that’s a that’s a patron exclusive episode for you right I think we said that in here yeah that’s a patreon exclusive episode for the mystery of everything podcast yeah so you all subscribe to our patreon I I hope you do at least in the first

Place you should check out theirs which I may uh leave a link down to it’s new it’s new we’re working on it we’re new to the podcasting on our own without Steve but yeah gab you’re entirely right that’s that is precisely what ends up happening is it’s going to create a lot

Of problems and you’ll see this as time goes on once the Black Death hits which is a whole other thing that we could talk about but that’s that’s not this episode either way Henry does pretty much from this inadvertently acknowledge the the right of the Pope to be able to

Depose secular monarchs and it strengthens the claim that the church is superior over secular powers that the church is superior over Kings and Emperors yeah despite Henry’s submitting to the pope though it didn’t cause his enemies to go away the anti-imperial faction within the empire did denounced

The German King and instead went and elected a guy called Rudolph of renf renfeld then who was the Duke of swabia as Henry’s replacement this would launch a Civil War called the Great Saxon revolt and Henry would have to fight this and then gradually start to try and

Gain back support from among the varying different German Nobles and Bishops but when he did so he would go and follow and do the same tactics with lay investure simony and everything else and would once again get excommunicated are you kidding me in 1080 at this point

In time I if I were him I would simply plot the demise unfortunately of the Pope yeah you’ve played Crusader Kings because oh he Gabby that’s pretty much what happens here because he’s not going back and and supplicating himself before the uh before the pope this time no no

No very soon after this that Rudolph guy he dies and so now Henry’s Army doesn’t need to deal with that instead they March down south and launch a Siege of Rome okay now he’s speaking my language I don’t support his actions I’m just saying logically since he was going to

Do what he wanted to do anyway to accomplish his goals right he needed to get rid of the Pope exactly I’m not supporting getting rid of the Pope I’m just saying logically he needed to do it so Henry so Rome is under siege Henry then deposes Gregory iith as Pope and

Instead installs wibert of Rena as Pope Clement III and subsequently after that is then confirmed as the Holy Roman Emperor by this new pope that literally serves him the siege of Rome then succeeds in 1083 and Gregory the 7th is held captive for the following year until a very interesting character from

History that I do need to talk about him but I’ve talked about a lot of European nobility history here this time so we’re gonna have to do that at a later Point Robert with scard the Norman Duke of apulia Calabria in Sicily the guy that would basically create the Norman

Kingdom yes that’s right for anyone who’s confused the Normans as in the same people that invaded from northern France conquered England and created the modern state of England with like William the Conqueror another group of Normans had gone South into the uh into the Mediterranean and conquered Sicily

So yeah that that’s how that that’s how that happened he went and forced Henry’s Army North and sacked the city in 1084 freeing the Pope Gregory though would remain deposed he wouldn’t actually end up having Authority would flee in Exile in southern Italy where he would die in

1085 so he never actually got to come back to Power Henry would in turn continue to practice lay investure simony and everything out else throughout his kingdom and when he would do this it would slowly build back his control over over Imperial territory but remember there’s always a but

Yes the problem is is that there were still a number of rulers that resisted him the rulers of Bavaria Saxony Tuscany more they still opposed him and when Henry invaded Northern Italy again in 1090 to stop an uprising by another Anti-Imperialist faction or Coalition that was being led by Matilda of Tuscany

And wealth ivth of Bavaria and the Gregorian successor Pope in II their armies managed to stop him and in 1093 they even went back and assisted the rebellion of Henry’s eldest son Conrad who rebelled against his father the marriage of Matilda and wealth though we the fth who was going

To be the husband of Matilda that marriage was dissolved in 1095 which broke the alliance that gave Henry the opportunity to reconcile his differences with wealth 4th Conrad’s Revolt would end up collapsing in 1096 and Henry would at least from this even though he was weakened regain some of

His influence over the following years but ultimately he would end up abdicating when he was forced to do so in 11:05 after his younger son betrayed him his chosen Heir Henry V and it’s this Henry that things are going to kind of finish under because upon the Ascension to the Imperial

Throne after his father’s abdication Henry V would receive the support of the German nobility and even the reform-minded rulers within the Empire but the tension that would exist between the Empire and the papacy was still something that was going to continue that did not change Pope Pascal II like

His other reformer people that had come before him he still wanted Independence and so he rejected the right of this Henry V to practice lay investiture naturally in the year 1111 following a failed compromise over lay investure Henry did something that he was never going to be able to recover from do you

Know what he did Gabby what’ he do he kidnapped the pope wow and when he did so he demanded that the pope acknowledge his right to invest his own Bishops like that he could practice lay investure and to crown him as Holy Roman Emperor Pascal would submit to Henry and when he would

Do so at first this seems like okay that everything is peaceful right the emperor finally succeeded no no the church Council that would follow after this event said that the events that would take place that Pascal’s submission to Henry that was nullified because this was all done under duress with him being

Imprisoned so that could not be legitimate Henry’s actions of kidnapping the pope would also take the people that previously had supported him the German Bishops and the clergy they turned against him and that is something that gave the secular rulers the ones in Saxony and other areas that wanted to

Get more Independence for themsel they now had a legitimate reason to reject Henry’s Imperial control over their lands and resist him that disagreement over investure and the tension that would be created between the H in the papacy that was going to continue on even as the pope was going to actually

Fix those issues and not have to deal with that with France and England and other territories the hre though that was going to continue on for a long More Time Resolutions to that conflict would be proposed throughout the Decades of conflict but it specifically always failed at balancing the spiritual and

Secular role of Bishops what was going to happen until finally in 11:21 some ground was gained and a compromise finally would occur something known as the concordant of worbs this would then occur in 11:22 that agreement between Henry V his vassals the pope all of this eliminated

Lay investure that the emperor was no longer going to be able to just appoint popes or not appoint popes but be able to appoint Bishops that Bishops were to be chosen according to canon law and free from simony that they could only be installed by quote the relevant Archbishop accompanied by two other

Bishops the emperor maintained the authority to still invest Bishops with secular Authority and property making them vassals of the lay rulers but the feudal installment would carry no religious significance meaning there was no ability for that Bishop to be able to do religious actions specifically that the emperor directed they would have to

Still follow Church law specifically and here’s the thing the pope not the Pope the emperor still had the right to give them property he still had the right to give them secular Authority and from that the emperor still maintained some power but he was greatly weakened because here’s the

Thing Gabby that by giving the Bishops Land by giving them secular Authority in a specific region the emperor is not tying the Bishops to the emperor he’s tying them to the land and so while temporarily they’re going to be more loyal to that emperor

As time goes on they are going to be in that area in their own power base with more loyalty yeah yeah oh isn’t that a thing where the whole thing where they couldn’t have kids with people became an issue because Bishops wanted more land or something correct correct yeah it was

A big thing here I vaguely remember you lecturing me on that one night when I was trying to go to bed it was like 2: a.m. I was trying to lie down you were like oh yeah and Bishops had blah blah blah blah blah but then they had issues

With land and then the church had land and I don’t remember it exactly I was falling asleep yeah so the change that we’re talking about here something that would benefit a lot of the Dukes and Lords the local Lords who they were going to be able to influence the ecclesiastical property within their

Realm the thing that previously had been directly controlled by the emperor wouldn’t that decentralize the church a little bit Yeah well not exactly no because the uh the pope was the one who would get to still directly appoint the Bishops but the power and financial base of those Bishops was directly tied to

The land around them which would increase local influence and you know what that means for the Holy Roman Empire what this is where it starts to become less holy less Roman less Empire is this what leads to the Magna Carta no that’s England huh yeah but it’s the

Similar kind of concept of the Nobles not wanting the king to be able to just order them to do whatever that it had to work with like that the Nobles have a degree of right and in this case the more rights that were Stripped Away from the emperor the

More decentralized that the thing became and although the Holy Roman Empire would not really begin to decentralize for a couple you know hundred more years this was really the beginning of that long process so it is that the investure controversy would completely change the entire balance of power in

Europe and that my friends is the end everyone thank you very much for for listening this has been staki with the history of everything podcast I appreciate all of you for joining in if you want to check out our trips that we’re going to be leading here to Peru

To Germany and also the updates that we’re going to be giving out with uh regarding Italy please by all means click the links down in the description simultaneously go ahead and check us out on patreon if you want adree episodes as well as free bonus not free bonus

Episodes but literally if you want bonus episodes that something is offered leave us a review every time I say leave us a review you guys leave like some one person leaves like a scathing review of me specifically and I get that so if you want to roast me do that if you don’t

Want to roast me don’t do that do what you want to do my friends thank you very much for listening I appreciate all of you and we will see you next time goodbye my friends bye