TOM STEELS | Journey Into Pro Cycling and What It Takes To Be a DS

Join us for a gripping journey into the heart of professional cycling as we delve into the last three decades of pro racing and the world of sports directing.

From Tom’s excitement of joining the number one Classics team when racing pro to later becoming DS for the same team, discover the evolution of cycling, the challenges young athletes face, and the importance of mental toughness in this captivating conversation.

From the chaos of the Tour of Flanders to the relentless battlefields of Roubaix, we uncover the strategies, challenges, and split-second decisions that shape the outcome of these monumental races, the intense pressure, camaraderie, and occasional controversies that unfold behind the scenes.

Discover the untold stories of mechanics scrambling to find the riders’ foul-weather clothing in the rain bag, spare wheels, the strategic game of supplying riders during crucial moments, and the delicate balance between following the rules and prioritizing rider safety and performance.

Gain insight into the human side of professional cycling as Tom reflects on the joys of victory, the frustrations of defeat, and the unwavering dedication to supporting riders through triumph and adversity.

Get ready to experience the thrill, tension, and exhilaration of cycling races like never before.

Take a seat inside the Soudal Quick-Step team car as we explore the dynamics during some of the most iconic races in cycling history.

Welcome inside the team car and the unseen drama of cycling races.

TOPICS DISCUSSED
00:00 Introduction
04:43 The Early Years, Tom’s Journey Into Cycling
13:59 Transforming Young Talented Riders into Champions
17:59 The Transition to DS
21:50 Studying the Race Course
24:59 Race Radio vs Moving on Instinct
25:49 Racing, Communication, Post-Race Briefing
39:02 Race Rain Bag Logistics
48:43 UCI Rules and Fines
58:55 Eddy Merckx
01:10:15 Ending

It’s a fully packed and insightful episode with Tom Steels of @soudalquickstep

– PODCAST LINKS –
Spotify

Apple Podcast
https://podcasts.apple.com/it/podcast/castelli-cycling-podcast/id1669906821?i=1000648937159

SEND US YOUR QUESTIONS
If you want your questions to be answered on air, be sure to submit your questions by sending us a message on social media or by email to⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcast@castelli-cycling.com⁠

[Applause] [Applause] and they just pulled full and they broke the the group in pieces I think we left with uh 15 1520 Riders ballerini tff Peters was in bulas was in so really really a strong team but also chipollini was in yeah you have to be careful that

That you don’t burn too many young guys on an early age it’s it’s not so easy not everybody has called Amco the singular goal of this podcast show is Will to bring you various stories from the world of castill as we are joined by by cyclist from all levels and disciplines together we’ll explore the best practices for Peak Performance discuss how to dress for racing and training and cold and hot weather share

Writing stories and hear firsthand about new and Innovative products in the works so if you’re new to the show make sure to browse through the list of past episodes as I’m sure you will find plenty of stories that will catch your interest and as we just hit 200,000

Downloads in our first year of the show an important Cornerstone we have decided to give away two VIP Hospitality tickets inside the iconic rubet V Drome or when this year’s per ret will take place on April the 7th the only thing you’ll have to do to participate is really to head

Over to our YouTube channel if you’re not already there and leave a comment on your all-time favorite Peri robe story or moment maybe the sector or a favorite classic couple writer of all time we’ll draw the two winners on March 26th and for those of you who haven’t watched the

Rubet from the inside of the V Drome I can assure you it’s something special as you’ll be watching the television pictures on the big screen all day and as the Riders approach the iconic Vel Drome you will watch the leaders bump over the final sector and turn right

Into the Vel Drome and at that moment you will drop your eyes from the big screen down to the spot where they will appear the point where the pavement ends and concrete Begins the Rand Corner onto the Vel Drome and to me probably the greatest Corner in procycling all the

Noise the banging on the publicity boards the announcer the holes of fans booming into an amphi of concrete all at once I even get goosebumbs now just talking about my last experience but now this could be you on April the 7th the only thing you have to do is head over

To a YouTube channel and leave your comment on your favorite moment writer or story from this iconic race the queen of the classics but back to this episode without further delay please enjoy my conversation with Tom Steels who wrote the rupe nine times and won 64 races in

His career before retiring at the end of the 2008 season and before pursuing a career as sport director helping other professional cyclists perform at the highest level as DS hey everybody Welcome to the castelli podcast I’m really excited today to have Tom steals one of the world tour’s longest standing

And probably the most experienced director sportive Diaz and a guy who has seen it all on the show today if you weren’t born earlier than the late ‘ 80s or didn’t follow Professional Road sighing in the news you might never have heard about Tom but he’s an absolute

Legend of the sport he wrote on some of the best classic teams of the ’90s including seven years riding for M mg and M quickstep and you know if you take a look on his palmares you will find nine stage wins at the T of France two

Stages at the welta four times Belgian national road race champion two times winner of viam omop H folk and the list goes on and on so Tom it’s an honor to have you on the show it’s an absolutely pleasure to have you on and thank you

For taking the time to join me pleasure is mine yeah no problem Tom I’m sure not all of our listeners are familiar with who you are so let’s start having you share your story on how you got into cycling your career highlights your 14 years writing professional with half of

The time writing for myay Quick Step and how you ended up where you are today yeah that’s a long story yeah that’s a long story no I actually started uh to ride a bike a BMX to be honest because I couldn’t ride uh the horse at home I always fell off because

In my family my brothers I have three brothers they all like came from from uh horseback riding uh but I I was the youngest of the four and I always fell off and I said I going to quit it and I uh uh my father gave me and my mother a

BMX and I started for BMX for for four 5 years and then I went into Road cycling old by coincidence but at the end yeah it turned out quite great so uh I know but uh I started because I I fell a lot of a horse yeah and then the story

Continued then I got uh better and better uh I combined a lot with the track track racing um of course I had the the handling of the bike from the BMX so I was really not really afraid uh to race even though my first two races were a

Disaster uh couldn’t even shift properly uh the second race I I crashed yeah I came home uh under the blood with my brothers even my brothers always because of the injuries I was 15 so my my mother already already freaked out because she saw me like I already almost had to

Quit um but then I got better better and better uh I won my first year uh two or three races uh the after 25 and then I continued and then just uh you roll into cycling before you know it your the career is over it goes quick yeah

Because you turned Pro in 1994 yeah that’s 30 years ago yeah that was still a completely different uh different way of cycling yeah I mean really old school I mean you go to the races with I started actually in a quite good team was the first year um was called frers

2002 so we started with with all Young Riders all Neo professionals uh got the opportunity to to get into cycling to get into professional cycling um but yeah really old school I mean we went to the race with uh with the race car and two normal cars uh we

Had to clean our clothing uh after the race so you went to into the shower and you tried to to clean your clothes for the next day so the humidity and the shamer was always very high but it was fun to be honest it was fun uh and step

By step of course was professional I stayed there two years one a stage in two laer uh One V Steinberger there was which was a classic in Belgium and then I was picked up by by Patrick Patrick lefer and then I went directly to the

Big M team how was the M team different back then it’s always been the number one classic team but back then you also have a lot of the Italian Riders there was a good mix and also was also Tony ringer was on the team and you had later

On Frank F patini Miki moo I mean you had the all the local Legends I mean you that team just had that fire power to to be strong you know throughout the whole season yeah for me it was really a culture shock I mean I came from a small

Team I went to a big team with almost I mean 35 Riders a lot of nationalities a lot of different Riders and many people I mean we are already with a lot of people but even they were at that time still bigger yeah um yeah and for me

Sport five was a big difference Al to adjust to to the trainings I mean I suffered I must say the first period a lot but I will never forget my first race I mean was I think was um with them in um T mediterrania yes uh um suddenly

I saw seven because in those days you still could ride with eight Riders uh in a stage race I saw seven blue guys going to the front I said yeah okay um still without radios I think I have to hurry up I’m too late I was think the last man

Hanging on and they just pulled full and they broke the the group in pieces I think we left with uh 15 1520 riders with ballerini taffy M Peters was in Bas was in and so was really really a strong team yeah but also Chini was in so uh

Still with his uh leg Wars on you probably thought this is going to be an easy one yeah but the first time they pulled I could I could already beat chipollini chipollini was second who was in those days one of the one of the fastest yeah so then you make your mark

And then you have the confidence of the team behind you you have your own confidence but I think maybe that’s was one of the most important race to win yeah especially because then you get also the Italians behind you like ballerini and Taffy and they didn’t know

Me the day they just saw a small Belgian guy coming into the team that they have to work for yeah um but okay I won and then I continued wow that was that was the big milestone of your career where everything started to accelerate after that yeah yeah yeah then you get into

The classics into the classics team you learned a lot yeah then your first Grand Tour we also always rode to win was always uh the pressure was always on in every race going from small to big uh big races and it’s still the mentality we have now in this team also every race

We go we try to to make a plan and to win um but that we learned um luy Peters was there Patrick was already there uh so yeah it’s just Anna which which which I got already early in my career winning a lot of races and the spirit of riding as a team

That’s makes me think of the wolf pack this is also how the name wolf pack how everything started of course it came up later but you know that that mentality was from the very first days of the team yeah it’s it’s the way we think also also also uh baramati has the same

Mentality I mean we were we were cyclists because of that we know we knew already early in the career or I already knew um yeah you need your people around you to protect yourself and to control the ways but you need really a team within within cycling and that we knew

And that that’s actually what we also do in this team yeah I mean the name Wolfpack is is actually uh invented by by Brian hle I it was Brian uh Brian who did it um in his Maes after after the races yeah but it it’s actually it it is a good

Summary why we do racing and and how we think it’s the best way to go to race yeah all for one and all for all it’s a bit uh it’s a bit the same bit the same yeah yeah coming back also to M that Jersey design was so and still is today

Iconic yeah that you still see it in Italy on the road sometimes uh people riding around that replica over the years in the 30 years that you have been living the world of professional cycling is this still today your all-time favorite cycling Jersey when it comes to The Graphic aspects

Yeah it it was completely different um it was nice even if I see it now even if a tourist in Belgium still wears that Jersey it gives you a good fing and it it it has something different than any any other uh any other Jersey in cycling

Yeah I think it never has been copied or never has been a jersey with the same impact I think correct um besides the national Belgium Jersey as a champion with the three colors um which was also very nice to ride in but but that Jersey of M had something special yeah because

For you with four National Belgian national road titles that’s also big achievement to your palaris yeah that was very very nice winning in a in a national Jersey whatever country you are if you look back the people still remember most of the the races especially in the tour if you want them

In a national Jersey something special give something else on a on a victory yeah yeah today cycling has just changed completely I mean we see now younger but very young athletes coming into the sports and being superheroes um already being a few steps up the ladder compared

To 20 years ago or 10 years ago nutrition has changed a lot training bike stuff AER clothing the compacts gearing the Ness of the of the bikes and everything is this something positive you think for the sport or should we take a step back and let some of the

Young guys maybe develop first before we throw them into bigger grand Tours yeah I think I little bit too much Evolution I think is what I want to ask you it’s uh it’s a lot to carry I think and especially for young kids I mean cycling

Is not an easy sport no every race is tough every race you have to dig deep and for young kids it’s it’s not only only it’s not only cycling itself but it’s also the social capacities that you have to have to be 160 170 a days away from home yeah

You need to to fit into a group uh yeah you have to be careful that that you don’t burn too many young guys on an early age it’s it’s not so easy not everybody has called uh it’s called rco No some people need and it’s not a lot I

Mean they need one or two years more also develop their tactical skills correct because at the end physically and professional cycling that doesn’t make the results it’s the capacity to think tactically because you always compete against a guy who is maybe 1 or 2% less

Or 1 or 2% more and then the Tactical skills make the difference but with the professionals to learn to win is not easy that you really have to learn from the young young categories uh also not to lose your your mental toughness yeah that you still feel like you’re a winner

And that’s that’s yeah that’s the challenges we have some of them can come over because they’re strong enough but I think 80% of the of the rid maybe 90% of the Riders just that one or two years more would benefit them more than come to directly to the to the professionals

Also the parents have to understand if you have a young kid of 18 years old if he’s 21 he still can be 15 years of a professional cyclist then his his backpack is filled a lot more than when he comes over at 18 or 19 correct yeah

Yeah and also because in a younger age you probably think you can take the leap earlier and then you have all this expectations and pressure on your shoulders and if you just have one Bad season it could be bad luck a crash or something maybe you’re out for Lifetime

After maybe you’re never going to come back you know it’s it’s you have to be on an age where I always say your first 2 three years as a professional you have to have the luck or you have to have the body to continue training without many

Setbacks because then you grow yeah but if you’re too young you raise two months an injury you you raise another two months you get sick but you cannot continue to develop yourself if you’re not strong enough and then the mental aspect comes and then yeah depressions

Then then why do I cycle why do I do this uh or the other side the bike is not good enough the clothing is not good enough and then they start to search for the details yeah but the bike is always good enough clothing is well to make

Results of course nowadays in cycling also clothing also bikes make a big impact impct on the highest level but to get to the highest level there are different ways to get there now these are some very wise words it’s a tough world I mean if I have a I had a CID to

Cycled who was who tried to to be a cyclist but he didn’t like to train so I never ever pushed him even as a young kid you have to have the feeling to go training to get on that bike but the feeling has to come from yourself

Yourself yeah is it from the night outside you will never survive long time you have to have that that fun and you you can give some guidance but it has to come from the the person on the bike itself come yeah no that is so true now

We covered we covered already but we also covered your 15 years of writing professional now the other 15 years as a director sportif or Sports director because did you make the shift already when you retired the end of 2008 and then you started 2009 as a DS or how

Long did you or what year did you start I started with coaching after my career uh but I also worked for for television as a co- commentator on the Belgium uh Belgium television and also there I learned a lot for me it was quite good

To to be one or two years out of cycling just to have a different view on cycling still help helps me a lot when I see when I hear uh people giving comments on Races uh because I know how it is to be there in that small box um with not so

Much info you you only tell what you see but maybe what you see there is a completely different story behind but okay there can only tell what they what they see but it was nice it was nice to uh to be there to to to just see

Different things about two two years but then luckily I also got uh the opportunity to to start back as a DS and a coach into into uh yeah Patrick’s team that was 2011 then yeah I think so was nice I mean it it’s to be a sport director it’s completely different job

You’re not a bike rider anymore uh you know how it is to be on on the bike but you’re not the bike rider anymore um yeah and and you just have to yeah it’s a complex job and I I don’t know where really to start but it’s it’s a lot yeah

I can imagine and espe the first season because one thing is also when you race those races as a cyclist versus your first time behind the steering wheel in a team car and you have to drive through the pelaton you got the radio you got you know so much is happening and you

Know on a bike you know the gaps you can get through I mean for me looking from the outside it must have been nerve wracking and stressful you know especially the first the first year um how did you what was your experience yeah the first the first uh

The first race was always I did myca as the first race which was not easy you have the trees left and right from the roads and mechanics yell go to the left then you often hear and then you of course hit the tree with the bikes yeah

Uh you have the walls you have the Riders around the cars you have the descents you have uh you have a lot to take to take care of um because driving the car into into a bike race it’s probably one of the one of the toughest job during

During the race you really have to be focused I mean the bike riders have no protection they ride behind your car 60 km an hour hour you have to have uh 15 eyes to see everything the guys in the car the mechanic and the Cod driver is also very

Important um but it’s also fun to do I mean un luckily I mean 95% of the drivers of the cars were former Riders so to be honest yeah it’s it’s it’s a bit the bike race also behind with the cars um and yeah we have to have discipline also Riders have

Always and will always have uh the upper hand when we are in the cars we don’t make the race we don’t have to make the race and if yeah we help the Riders have a flat tie we try to get there as fast as possible but always with a little bit

Of safety to not yeah H some risks yeah but that’s one part of the job of course I mean the other part is um when I started to be honest that was still the race book I still see me standing in front of the bus with the race book

Just showing a little bit where the wind came from but that was it the next step I I start to search for for other tools to to to just get more information so I start to watch Google Maps just is there this small Road or not I make the notes

Yeah uh when I did my first or second rou I did the Recons and I really had like a a rally car book 2 kilm further we go left narrow just just to talk to the Riders Riders and then other tools came um the first thing I said yeah the

Meetings maybe we can do it with the PowerPoint maybe it’s better with the screen just to show the Riders so it was in a hotel with the screen then the next step uh we put it in the bus to make uh the meetings before before the race with

The PowerPoint then other tools came like Veil View and Ride with GPS and then where we could really follow the race and now to be honest yeah we know every corner every little road every open sector every little po hole on the road and if it’s slippery or the wind

Direction is changing yeah because you also have someone sometimes up front yeah further up the road who can give you Direction tell if something was is changing especially in grand Tours because you you see it in front but you often don’t know where the barriers are going to be or small changes especially

For the last 5 km if it’s a bench print every information can be crucial so the guy in front uh gives us that um well in front that we still can give it to the Riders but yeah it’s it’s it’s uh I mean the preparation of a race you easily

Talk about 3 hours 4 hours for one stage so you can count uh if you do have to do Grand to 21 races how much time goes in from filling in the cause understanding the cause to put it in a PowerPoint for the meeting which is actually

Uh the tactics of the race if the race goes normal because a lot of things can change but there is a lot of time that goes into that preparation but you need it also to be calm in the car because at least you know the course where you get

Into do you think sometimes the Riders they count too much on you guys in the back in the car and don’t act on Instinct yeah but that’s something we teach them I mean we at the car we are the last solution they are the first Solution that’s good they have to feel

The race because if it has to come from the car it will take them 10 kilm more to 10 km more effort yeah so for me the most important is the meeting in in front of the race just to know who the leaders are uh who is going to pull the

First which teams cannot go which teams we going to watch in the final how we going to do it ourselves that’s for me the most important thing when they leave the bus if if they have a clear tactic to be honest I would be very happy only to say the dangerous point

And tactically that they just go their own way yeah and that’s something I really like to teach them also even if they make a mistake in the race it doesn’t matter because if you only do it once if they do it five times it’s another story you learn from your

Mistakes you learn from your mistakes yeah correct and Riders are no robots and you yeah even without radios I still want to have the best and you can only do that by giving Riders responsibility and also give them the responsibility because uh then I always

Think if I was a bike rider and somebody tells me always in this year what I have to do yeah 5 km lat probably will be out you you have to have that instinct in the races yeah plus it’s also it’s the only place where you can feel the

Tension there is if there’s something that is building up you know inside of the group or in the breakway if somebody is about to go on know go in the Breakaway or attack or something you know that is something you can only feel if you’re there in the group and not

From a few kilometers behind in in a team car yeah I mean if if you have have the luxury to be second or third car you still see what happens but if you car number 8 or9 to be honest yeah then then you’re too far away to feel it um later

On when you get the data B in uh after the race you see the race data then you know this was this was hard or this was hard or the other R suffered or not uh but during the race to be honest I’m I’m I’m always happy if if you go on the

Road with a small team then then you are much more relaxed and you don’t have to put situation right that was were um yeah that were not necessary correct how many team cars are allowed on the course doing let’s say one of them coupled monuments I usually can follow with two

Cars but yeah if you take like a race like T ofas or Ru that’s too hectic so even with with one car it’s already not easy to come to the front group so usually um like in Belgium it’s forbidden to start in the front so you have to follow directly from the second

Car okay but then at certain point we say okay the second car goes out takes the sticker off that he cannot come back into the race and then we just follow with one one car yeah how many people would you then now you mentioned rub have on the course with spare Wheels a

Lot can you know the number or yeah really a lot I think uh I mean every sector is covered yeah and now also for security you calculate a lot of time to go from one sector to another one yeah I think the times of cowboy style is over

That’s not acceptable anymore yeah which was 10 of 15 years ago was a different story yeah I think we have um five or six teams five or six cars going in between with uh yeah like 20 25 people with spare Wheels andot Rings bottles yeah they will be SI saging through all

The sectors making sure that they also have that plan they also know where to stand they also text us in the car where they are they also put it on uh on the V map on the V map then you know where they are exactly then you can

Say then you don’t have to say they are in one kilm but then you really can say kilm 105.6 they’re going to be there yeah know you always think about it when you’re watching it on on telev know and you never really understand all that stress that that is going on and how

Hectic is you know inside of the car but also all the people standing alongside the course one thing is you have one puncture and one Rider who goes down but another thing is if you have three Riders goes down the same at the same spot you know and they all need a spare

Wheel or spare bike yeah uh and often often you also make to make tough decisions I mean often you cannot wait no and then you leave a rider behind with a flat tire because you you especially in R it’s very tough but also in T ofers and then you just always move

On yeah to the people who are really still in the race if you you will always give a rider wheel but often you just give the wheel and you go on and then the ride with the Riders on the stand and we also breathe them in front what

Can happen yeah they understand it also but it’s it’s very hectic I mean once I I step into the car with my colleagues I always say okay this is our office today it’s it’s an office also you have different iPads but they always say if

They ask me um isn’t it boring to be 7 hours in the car it’s not boring it’s like 5 minutes the race starts and you go on and once you get concentrated then you have to keep yeah your your brain is just uh and after the race we also dead

And that’s probably also a bit of deep brief you have to do after the race with the riders or yeah if something happens you do the next day yeah you do debriefing if it’s really necessary if yourself have already enough information so you listen to the Riders and if you

If you really feel there is something boring then you’re going to look for the moment or or try to to get your story clear that you get to the riders with a clear story I always say 10 minutes after the race they can yell whatever they want that’s not important but is at

Half hour after the race if that story still stands or not and then you know okay we have to do something with it or to learn for the next race or if it’s a problem to solve the problem or just to have a laugh but I’m not the debriefing

Guy every day they already have to do a lot they don’t already have a lot of time but you listen and you learn and then if it’s I I think in in my whole career I did it maybe four or five times when I really felt okay this is not a

Okay guys this is not who we are and then you see the next day everybody back different mentality and yeah I think those are the the right approach Tom what is the most difficult decision you had to make in your career as a DS yeah

One of the the toughest I mean was like leaving um Michael morco behind in the tour he wasn’t good um but we still went for the station and we needed cars and and and uh yeah we had to leave him behind alone that was a tough one luckily we

Had a good F here who was behind the broom wagon yeah and the broom wagon luckily also was very gentle at least to can to give him a bot and you have to respect also the rider if he doesn’t want to stop it’s it’s it’s also we knew

It was almost impossible to come into the time limit so that was a tough one yeah also sometimes it’s tough really to make uh a call while you especially when it’s it’s it’s tight to chase breakway but still a rider is in but you think you have more chance from behind

To win that’s also very tough call that you don’t also take likely and of course crashes I mean a crash always goes straight to the heart you always uh yeah when once you hear or see a rider on the ground that’s that’s never ever going to be a a nice thing to see

And you always I always calm myself down to be sure if you get him back onto the bike he also good to go on the bike luckily and that’s that’s a good thing I think in 95% of the races we also have a doctor in the race and once there is a

Crash usually is in the second car in the grand Tours uh we always call them directly up um that beside the raise doctor at least we have our own doctor also also knows personally the the rider yeah yeah losses I mean it was a nice

Thing to hear from iio who was a a sport director first year with us uh last year uh the nice thing was uh we did together the race in the last stage in D we wanted to go for the win and one thing he said and we’ll never forget because

That actually that’s that’s exactly how it is as a bike rider you into detention through run on the bike but once the race is over it’s over I mean you take a shower but as a sport director the adrenaline just keeps on coming and if you win it’s okay you also

Lose it quite quickly but the frustration if you lose it just sticks to the body and that’s something you have to learn also that’s why running after a race or just doing something different half an hour to get loose of the race then go to the Riders is

Usually a good thing to do but the adrenaline just keeps on coming yeah no I can’t imagine I no all all the goals and goal setting and but it’s know it’s also a way of you know doing a bit of meditation after just letting go of the

Issue or the problem or the result and like you said go for for a 30 minute run just to clear it out rethink about it cuz maybe get a different perspective and relax and come back you see it differently yeah and you also cannot forget yeah I’ve done competition sport

When I was eight it’s also in my system it is once I come into competition that just have a different mindset it’s a completely different almost a different person you see yeah there are some people that sometimes I questioned meeting them casually in person I thought how could this person be such an

A good cyclist because as being a good cyclist you need to have this hunger Hunger for winning and give a little bit extra I’m saying and have a big ego because again I’m happy if my teammates win but I wish it was me it’s kind of still that mentality you have as a

Cyclist I I can see that then when as soon as with those people when they pin on a race number Boom the mindset just completely changes yeah and it’s like it’s it’s like an extra power you get on board you have Riders who are good Riders on training but never will be

Exceptional but those are the guys usually in the race once the number is on they get do their best and you see even the numbers changing and you have the guys who yeah I think out of out of 10 Riders maybe one is a real winner the

Second one or the third one is close by but there are not so many winners in the team they really have that that in like like even calm guys can really be winners because they feel the race and they want to win yeah because to win you

Have to dig deep you always have to dig deep and you have to have that nasty mentality for yourself yeah did you say I will today I will not lose and if you lose then you throw the helmet away and lot less than before but even I threw my

Bike in the air uh after a frustration loss over the years yeah you learn how to handle it more but the fire inside still stay the same outside you stay more calm but inside it’s still balling that’s why the bus if you close the bus they can do whatever they want yeah and

It’s also necessary to do it but yeah a winner is a winner um it’s um difficult to say it is a team sport but at the same time an individual Sport and there are so many expectations also building up to but then you also have

The glory and now as a DS I assume that you are probably more on the road today than you were when you were racing yeah you know between training camps Recons yeah out there at races how does it feel with someone succeeds in Victory like something that you guys have built up

For some big big race or when Casper as Grand won to of landras in in 21 that joy that is within the team after when you guys are popping champagne and celebrating that must also feel like something special to you as a DS just

Was as it was back in the day when you were raising for a pay the feeling is almost the same I mean nowadays with the on board cameras you see you see see the the joy we have if ryer wins and it’s it’s not a it’s not a theater we really

Are really excited I mean if Casper won Tour of flers even last year in the tour when he won that incredible stage in the tour which was so close and we had a difficult tour well then we explode then we just and then we’re happy even with

Tears even with yeah and that last and then you’re like uh you you’re almost like the bike rider again which which is with many people who do a job this is also in our job one of the most nicest things to do when it goes wrong it goes

Wrong then we also feel down and then but when it goes good it’s like yeah it’s like a big uh big party but it’s not only the US in the car it’s it’s it’s also the emotions in the bus it’s it’s the guys the hotel everybody just

Goes you flow 1 cm above ground if you if you win and uh the tougher it is to win yeah the deeper it gets the the the nicer is it’s uh if you win if you win a lot even you know every every win is difficult especially as the next bike

Rider you know it’s never ever easy to win but you get a certain mood of we will again win again but if you get and you win and then you have a win and it’s no it takes you out of that dark space because then and it completely changes

The the vibe and energy there is around the team so you know that’s right what about in inside the of the team car when the mechanics doing one of the classic races say omope or k or hint and so when the Riders come up to the car asking for

Something in the race rain back is it easy or is it very difficult for the mechanic to find what they’re looking for how does that work I mean we Supply the equipment and the race wi bags until the Riders we to stuff their stuff but how does it actually unfold inside of

The team car so you have to imagine you have the the team car mechanic behind um and I must say nowadays to be a mechanic is not easy it’s not easy it’s a very technical bike it’s a bike that is strong but on the other side

Also vulnerable so to be a mechanic in the car they are not there on vacation it’s it’s not easy so you have seven rain bags behind and their rain bag is like a little bit like their personality if you have an organized people but because you have rain bags everything is

On yeah all warmers gloves everything has his compartment everybody every piece has his his place in this but some it’s perfect the ask rain jacket and nowadays with the with the stuff we have from castelli they have different choices for different weather types um and if it’s organized it takes

A mechanic 10 seconds to take it and it gives it to the rider but if you have a rider with a little bit of less organized skills then it’s all over the rainb and then it takes 2 minutes to find what he needs or it’s not in the

Rain bag that he asked it that he for got it in the hotel or it’s in a place that you never find it and then it takes longer and longer and usually if they need rain rain clothing it’s usually because it starts to rain but then you don’t have one

Rider who comes but then you have seven Riders who come to the car and then it just OB bom explodes in the car so then the mechanic uh yeah then can be very hectic in the car and if it’s like really warm day yeah then they come for bottles and then it’s

Like and if you have car number one or two it’s quite okay but then the battle starts with the other cars the battle starts and the the the box with the bottles is in the in the back so he has to turn around and if it’s like a hectic

Course like in Italy with 15,000 C in 1 kilm then then they really have to have a strong strong stomach but it’s it’s hectic it’s for sure I think it’s uh I think we did one it was quite a nice story we did um Le B Le with the snow

And then we had a good weatherman and he could really predict listen um within 2 km it’s going to be over for half an hour it was really like snow and everything wow so D at least could say to the Riders hold on to the jacket

After the hell it’s going to be dry then of course it took everything out and I was together with u with with Brahma yeah Brahma and he wanted to dry all the clothing so the desk in front of the car no way was full of clothing so outside

Was like I don’t know 4° yeah but I had to put my window down but the heating was full on on so I was like warm in the car but I had to cool from from the outside while driving at that driving yeah while being busy with the r

But still yeah but yeah that’s that’s to come up with Solutions yeah yeah yeah it’s like a little bit of being of MacGyver yeah um sometimes we have to fix the cleat sometimes we have to fix the chain it’s always something yeah yeah I heard also a couple of fun story

Funny stories and but one of them was also one of your your guys who crashed uh and broke the Boggle uh the closure Boggle on on on the on the specialized shoes so he need a new pair of of spare shoes which he was supposed to have in

His race R bag but what the mechanic found was a pair of casual shoes or Runners but yeah that was a fun one okay so then when you’re at the race I always thought about how you guys especially doing one of those like long days in the

Car as you mentioned earlier 7 hours how do you guys go about your lunch break let’s say when you’re going to eat your sandwich or taking a nature break you know when you got to go you got to go tell me a little bit more Tom about how

All that works yeah um of course the lunches are prepared by the by the SWS and that’s also improving uh nowadays we often get a salad or you usually it’s like um how do you say the name a baguette a sandwich yeah which is probably a little easier to eat than a

Sal easier to eat yeah especially if you’re driving yeah yeah yeah if you’re driving it’s impossible to eat the salad but um so yeah and you eat when you have time uh and you drink when you have time and the natural stops then we usually call Al colic and then of course if

You’re far behind in the in the colon you move up just to not to lose too many spots because in a in a grand tour like the tour it’s it’s all well but like in a small tour you have to be careful that you don’t get out of uh after the broom

Wagon after the police escort because then you’re out of the race and you come into normal traffic so you move on and N9 out of 10 you move to the front a village comes no space to stop and then you have to wait wait wait then our other colleagues come back again and

Then you find the spot and then you you stop and then you try to get back as soon as as fast as possible but you really have to be careful how far behind is the broom wagon that’s not so far I mean if you’re if you’re there for 1

Minute 1 minute and a half it can already be tricky uh often you see especially when you drive last car yeah even Riders who stop to pee if this last car doesn’t stop they also often out of the out of the cars and then you never

Can come back so there has to be some uh solidarity also especially for Riders who are really and also often Riders just yeah they stop to pee and and The Paton doesn’t go fast but they still go 40 45 right they have the feeling it goes quite okay but before they know it

There’s nobody to bring them back so uh it’s not the first time a rider really has to chase down uh the group because he stopped uh he stopped for too long and even for Rider but also for you guys also finding especially doing a grand tour finding a good spot where you can

Actually go and do your natural break where there’s no people no fans you know where you’re not in the way it’s not easy I mean this whole no when it get hectic I must say I uh I lower the consumer of of Dr drinks yeah I’ll bring

It down so we don’t have to stop often so I heard um I don’t know if it’s true but I’ve heard that doing a grand tour where the start usually is around 12:30 1:00 and not like um the classics where you would start early in the morning

That there is this Unwritten DS or mechanic rule that you never have lunch before 1:00 is that right or you don’t in in the car is that or is there some only some teams that’s in only some teams I think for me the limit is 12:00

Okay so usually if it’s a late start and we are we are there at the start and the meeting is done then usually yeah we eat what’s what’s in the car already before the race then at least you can eat quite that easy yeah but yeah I think with us

It’s not really a rule no okay no that’s good to hear yeah what piece of advice would you give to someone new coming into the DS role and getting behind the wheel for the first time as a sports director first of all of course know the

Ca uh know your qualities but also your your pitfalls and also as a sport director we have to be modest it’s still the bike rider who wins the race we help them and we try to make we try to get the best out of the

Riders but at the end we just do our job and we are a small piece can be a small piece of Victory or not but yeah we we try try to bring the rider in the best possible circumstances to the race but from start to finish we have our role

But the rider does it correct yeah the rider does it and we can help and sometimes we have that small small part where we we help them with information but they have the legs and they just have to spin the legs and I don’t want

To down downsize our job but I also want don’t want to make it like we are like you often read like The DS’s they make the tactics and they make robots and yeah no that’s ridiculous make a plan with the guys it’s always it’s always together with the because I can can make

A plan but if the Riders say no no we want to do it differently can also be a good choice but then you discuss about it at least that you you have a clear plan but as a DS you have to be a people manager and you have to understand that

Um this one year the mechanic the guys on the office is they’re at least as important as uh as we are it’s it also that has to be a team and the structure of a team also has a big impact on on results and we we carry maybe a lot more

We carry responsibility because if it’s not wrong we have to say it also but we have to count on our on our colleagues also on every level of uh of the team of the team yeah no it’s one big chain if there’s just one missing link then it’s

Not going to work so and enjoy it enjoy the job because enjoy job yeah you’re right what is the worst fine you ever received during a race or the most stupidest yeah the worst one that really of course we do things we also know if you get a fine sometimes it’s a 100%

Fine correct fine the other one is you can discuss about it but one one of the the toughest finds we have got was with julan in the tour where we we he took a bottle just after the 20 km rule which is of course yeah you cannot discuss about it it was like

19.8 or 19.5 but he was just just after with a good reason was the last climb of the day there were a lot of people already on on the course a lot of Spectators just he moved to try to find a safe spot was a very hot day we had to

Pass a village at high speed so there we couldn’t give a bottle the group was very compact so there were there were good reasons why he was just after the 20 km rule so we got a fine June lost is Jersey Co time so the world lost a lot

Of people uh there I missed a lot of humanity in the decision and then I lost it then I just couldn’t hold it anymore uh and it still went I had a discussion with the commer which actually is a good is a good person but yeah that decision

I really could not live with and the Riders were on the bus and and my colleagues were on the bus and they hear it but that that’s still for me one of yeah on on The Human Side one of the the worst decision I ever had to

Cope with yeah but okay still alive and still go on to the other race but also for Julian but but in general I mean yeah we we lost so many people of so many friends so many parents yeah and then just just the contrast was too big

For 500 M and and half liter of a B I completely agree with you but those guys also just following the rules but yeah bit flexibility yeah don’t blame it but it just and the rules keep getting you more and more strict from the UCI also

With some of the new rule sets now that what you think yeah often has forgotten that that um the rules are getting very tight the fines are getting very high but yeah as a DS we have not we have no Union I mean we we are always in the

Race we we we protect our rights but also we help also other Riders from other team but now you get a f for everything we know our limits I mean 95% of the time but is at 5% of course you you have to be careful that it doesn’t go that is exaggerated right

But it’s like giving giving bottles to a rer if rer comes back after 2 weeks of racing 35° you give him a small push because he has to carry seven bottles those kind of things they just you just have to find the human aspect also every to get

Dropped in the final and that’s actually the mentality we got from Patrick when we had him as DS if you drop in the final you drop in the final no help from the car nothing at all that’s because you’re not good enough or the calls is

Too hard yeah then you play it then you play it good but if provider has a has a mechanical problem 150 km to go nothing happens in the race please be a little bit flexible also yeah that do help to at least give the the the PE the public

The spectacle they deserve in the final because on television sometimes you see maybe a rider from another team being held up as you said to the rest of the Caravan and to the group by other team cars sometimes you see television they go on and focus on the r just for one or

Two seconds and then they cut to something different but there will still be UCI commers on parkour but it’s something that you do to help Riders because you also help Riders from other teams but also to bring something to the race you don’t want to lose some of the

The big main favorites of the race just due to a rule or no no no I mean I mean there has to be kind of a solidarity in in the in the team cars because also I mean if you have a flat tire if you stopped for a natural break those are

Not sportive elements then you we usually and also I mean then every sport director will help uh every ride out not important which team he is of of a world tour team or proc Continental every Rider will be helped even if a rider ask a bottle if you are behind The Brak and

The team car is not there they only have one car then you also give him a bottle to help him out and it’s it’s hot and he’s he’s suffering another story is if a rider gets dropped then they have to be really strict if a rider gets dropped

Then you often see the the boundaries that they still have or behind the car or whatever that’s not correct correct if Rider drops and he’s he’s like close to the time limit out is out I mean of course if it’s if it’s snowing and hail and then then but then they usually also

Flexible but hanging on the car on the climb for 2 km that’s not yeah those things there is a big big difference between even in Bunch print there is a big difference between what’s what’s uh what you can and cannot do but there four are the rules but it’s it’s it’s a

Thin line It’s a Great Gray Zone and you have to that yeah some commer really have an excellent feeling they feel the race they make good decisions you can talk to them also uh you can discuss with them you can we you can tell your story we also hear their their story

Because it’s also a different world for us for us but some comments says yeah the power sometimes is not it doesn’t bring the best out of people sometimes yeah and then of course if something should change in the overall then you also have the counterpart from other

Teams going to the commes talking there I mean then it’s becoming one big yeah that’s course but it’s funny us to say this also about in the bunch Sprint so keeping your line I just had the pictures of early 90s Abdul jabarov when he was do his printing and he would be a

Little bit like pushing and everything but even Eric sa you remember You’ been sprinting against him I’m sure and been racing against did the same May with the head or shoulders and the arms out uh yeah a lot of things have changed you know have changed of the rules the

Mentality and those guys that’s the way they raised also the way that sometimes you just lean up against another Rider just because that I mean it’s not to hurt the other person maybe just using your balance you’re leaning up and just to get yourself back on back aligned

Again so yeah yeah it’s a thin line I mean one of the things I always did like you say if I knew a rider was coming um because he was maybe also pushed away I already brought my shoulder to him because the the sooner you touch

Shoulders even if you he pushes you a little bit away you still stay on your straight line yeah it it’s it’s it’s difficult to say I mean as a sprinter in that environment you see everything you see a shadow you listen you you you follow every move you’re so sharp even

Now I cannot imagine that I ever did it but if you think about it back your your your body is is so sensitive about a lot of stuff yeah but one thing is always clear if a rider really moves from his line I can say directly that’s on

Purpose or not because you’re so you’re so aware what you’re doing that it’s it’s silly to say I I didn’t know that he was coming oh I didn’t know it oh oh yeah sorry but yeah no that’s you’re so aware of everything around you that you can say directly this is on

Purpose or this is not on purpose and even if it’s on purpose sometimes you feel like going to win I going to win and somebody comes and you have that that instinct to go to the right but then as in the DS you have to say listen

If you win or lose if you win you have to be clear but you never win by doing stuff where you hurt a colleague or you do it in a way that you say this is not correct because on the long term you will lose more than you win but that’s

The job of a it’s interesting to hear and also interesting I like I like to hear from your point of view coming with your many years of of experience because you bring a lot of very important points to the table here but about helping cyclist in general also about being the

Perfect all round DS because that’s what you need well you need of course you need your colleagues also I mean I have I have my things other other colleagues see differently and and you try always to find your but but the rider itself seeing a long-term career for a rider

Protect him when necessary for instance when he doesn’t of course that’s together with the doctor but also say okay go out even raise is never so important as your health correct if you have to go out you have to go out I mean you rest two weeks and you restart again

In another race a rise is a race is a race and we have the luxury in our sport there are many races if you go to the Olympics as a I don’t know a Marathon run maybe we have four chances a year yeah we have 80 chances a year so it’s

It’s and the health of RI that we also always have to protect and just to get the best out the rer and I learn from uh the package as done and we we Tred to get it better but yeah we are not we also not musicians I mean some

Riders get get a lot of their careers other Riders are very good teammates you know they can do better but if you always push push push to get them better because you know they are better at certain point it also stops and then the other Rider who they are and it’s also

Okay I mean if if they are fine with the results they do and they are fine with the salary and their contract then it’s also not up to us to keep on pushing you can do it you have to do it for Young Riders and you have to do it on a

Certain stage but if they’re five six seven years professional then they are the ride who they are there’s not much there you can change that no come down to my last three questions here when you grew up in Belgium with cycling who was your childhood cycling Idol or cycling hero I

Must say because I come from a totally different environment uh cycling was not the main spot in our in our family so I was the first to start with cycling but the luxury um and it I mean it’s it’s a classically I mean uh as a Belgium but I

Had the luxury to start in the team with uh let us say now we’ say a devil team with the team of Eddie Ms and I had the pleasure in a young age two persons I must say so you have Eddie MKS who was quite impressive who was with us

Involved who changed our positions who made up by so he he came to the race and he he started to to take a key on so he was part of this he was part of the of the race was luxury to ride with with this song top guy and I also had the

Luxury to work with uh with Patrick seru who was yeah six day King he was my first coach to be honest on the track but also on the road I learned a lot from him and I also learned the winning mentality of him so yeah I had really

The luxury of of working with two well one of the nice persons but but to be honest also winners um and they they yeah they they shaped my of course with he was really nice to met him and to see um what character can do and how with

How much passion he built the bikes and who was involved with us but who are we against him I mean and then with with with yeah with Patrick c i really uh had a lot of lot of nice times together and they developed also my career but as a

Young kid Idol to be honest I didn’t have you didn’t have any yeah maybe it’s also good I mean it’s uh it gives a different perspective also showing that it’s it’s cycling is not everything uh maybe no and and you start with the with the wi page I really didn’t know

Anything anything you didn’t follow cing at all before so no I didn’t I really I mean I rode a bike that my father bought on a second hand Market uh was not even the race bike I mean but it’s good for me it was good but I still remember my

And you don’t remember everything but I still remember my first uh race um I had to put on my race p and I was looking what are they doing I mean how do they do they put cream on or not I just didn’t know anything anything yeah you

Were learning it by doing probably the best school you can have but just like you said before with with Eddie apart from being well one of the best but maybe the best recyclist of cycling history I spent some time also in in Belgium and at one of the kermes races I

Was out doing in Len Eddie was sitting there I didn’t know that but I was in the Breakaway to the last I don’t know the last 20 km got dropped and like just dropped out of the race completely after went back to the bar where you need to

Give back your your race number and this this this guy behind me he just he says hey why don’t you first he talk to me and I don’t it was French or flam I can remember he was but afterwards he found out I was stranger you know Foreigner

And he told me hey hand back your number and come come to my table here and join me for a beer and I turned around and I looked at Eddie MKS I was like no way are you talking to me or to someone else

And that’s it I mean came to his I don’t know what you call it stum Tish or what you call it he was just there watching the local kermas race and S but I remember being such a gentleman that I came back to we were staying up in rashmin in an

Old hostel it’s a your place yeah yeah really I live 10 K from there Nicholas yeah play yeah nice and I remember telling everyone else there from from from the from the team and other riders that I just had a beer with ad M and they like yeah well don’t believe you

Like such a gentleman what I what I really was most impressed about his character we were with the Olympic team in lanot and he was our coach so we were there and the the coach of the national team was also there Ron Van Mar was which also was a former Rider and they

Wrote together and the first day apparently Ed he didn’t have the best legs but then I talk he was also already stopped many years and the second day he came back but red sweating and then he said if he thinks he going to hurt me

Every day he’s wrong so even if he was out of condition his character took over just to show you are still the best nice and we have a doctor in theion who who really rides a lot with him yeah he has such a character he can hurt himself so

Much which is a quality to be honest which you see with the best they can hurt they can suffer so many pain but that’s really the first time I saw that even if you stopped even if you won everything it’s in your jeans it’s in your jeans as you said earlier no

You’re right if you’re if you’re a real race horse you’re a real race horse for Life yeah yeah so two last questions what is your first castelli memory if there are any could also be a Castell team from the days that you were racing or yeah what garment you got later on I

Wrote with yeah of course the the Belgium two Belgium teams uh I wrote with uh with M but that was I think sports that was sportful yeah sportful for a few years and Santini later but I when you won the Nationals it was with sportful because I think we have your

Jersey actually your signed jersey in the office yeah yeah yeah yeah that was a sport yeah yeah yeah yeah then was that was here with the team I think but also that evolution is incredible has changed and it keeps changing now now we’re going back to the tunnel with rco

To do some more error testing for the tour yeah but that also is such a high technology it is yeah I mean if if I take my bike and I put on a Gaba and our days was like 15 layers just to stay warm right now you just put one jacket

On one under lay and you go 7° you’re safe it’s impressive and sometimes I remember in the ’90s when it was just pouring down raining then you put on a rain Cape no matter also if you knew that you couldn’t really breathe inside but other races where it was maybe just

Drizzling a little bit sometimes you would just not even put on the rain cap because you knew that the moisture would not be able to get out you’re still going to get wet and you will not no longer be aerodynamic you know I just feel this like big parachute like

Pulling your back more than I still remember the first Rider who had the character to put on a a DT suit in the race was a guy from I think it was a guy from Earth yeah or Jersey and we looked down and we said is he going to do and

Everybody start to laugh with him because he didn’t even at the pockets I mean he was just but then you see okay there has always has to be some guy who starts with it and at the end nowadays aerodynamics is such such so important because it’s it’s a big surf I can’t

Remember but I have to look it up but I read in a cycling book long time ago about I think it was gron who in the 80s showed up to a road race where in a TT suit I think it was him or Andy hampon

It was one of the the American I think was was great but no you’re right and then just disappeared and then it came up then with usel and uh and yeah just just yeah and it’s nowadays I must say many riders Say Arrow is everything uh I mean leaving look at their narrow

Handlebars that they’re maybe a little bit too narrow sometimes and with the with the breaking lead was pointed in and yeah I mean nowadays if you if you if you get onto a bike bike and clothing you just ride with the same effort or you have the feeling at least you go

Three four 5 K fast yeah which is incredible if you know how much power it takes to go 5 km F completely but also that mental thing yeah the the play bow effect that comes in because when we with a sister brand sportful their first year sponsoring saxo Bank we were down

Steve and I and Sonia down in forto Ventura and and then also talking to B re uh because I had Fabian celada asking for longer legs so longer shorts and if you could get his Arrow shoe covers with the top riding Spartacus in Gold I remember ban was like you’re not going

To get longer legs and we’re not going to ride Spartacus in gold and then you know he kept on asking F asking and then one day then bana he called me and said hey just you know for the tour that was the tour where he won he

Probably won it anyway the prologue and took the the yellow Jersey when he told us hey on those uh fion shoe covers just right Spartacus but just in small in go and you will see he’s going to go like you said those 5 10 20 faster you know

It’s uh you never see a rider anymore putting the clothing on just by putting in the M yeah I mean if they put the AOS sock on they really use the spray they they see if the sleeves are okay before a TT it’s really yeah it’s it’s it’s

Also yeah it’s also part of the game yeah it is what is the biggest now we’re talking about clothing fashion crime you have seen in cycling like the worst look or the worst thing could also be like now we have high socks because back in the day when you were racing there was

Just a standard height but then they just became longer longer longer yeah yeah I must say it doesn’t look that great I must say but you know it’s good it’s fast but it’s just with us we are grown up with white socks slow right socks correct uh yeah it’s it’s

Different yeah even if you see the riders coming out of the bus with the short pants and the uh the the long suck on for Recovery it’s it’s a strange s but okay it’s it is what it is yeah it’s part of cycling today of cycling yeah

But I do agree with you I’m more on the the old team when it comes to to how to dress I mean it has to be white socks they can be a bit higher it still looks looks nice white socks White Shoes you know just the black shorts just keep it

There or at least dark colors keep it keep it uh keep it classic you know and stick to tradition so hopefully we’re not going to see any more of the only for only world champions any more white bip shorts true in the room I mean it’s just they’re just terrible you know that

When when when when when it rains some like you also have to respect it but okay it’s I think it’s it’s okay for a world champion yeah for a world champion it is so yeah that’s the only one who can be exactly Tom thank you so much for

Taking the time to we have been on for a long time almost an hour and 15 minutes but thank you so much it’s been a pleasure talking to you and I’m sure that all our listeners here they picked up a lot of interesting stuff here I

Can’t wait wait to to we share this episode with with the rest of the world it was really good thank you no thank you so much okay have uh let’s go down and get some food now it’s already getting late yeah okay we will do that you by bye Bye