Losing my baby sister to the streets of Belfast… With: Lee Maria

In this episode we are joined with Lee Maria Hughes. Lee Maria takes us through her heartbreaking story of how she lost her baby sister to the streets of Belfast…

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Welcome back guys to the bear and P St St [Applause] here welcome to burn Scully life a night of entertainment it’s going to be Bingo Loco meets an and de there’s going to be holiday giveaways there’s going to be good crack there’s going to be dancing there’s drinks get your te Now ladies

And gents this is the moment you for Welcome back guys to the bear and Scully podcast with me Sean skolan AKA Scully oh man AKA The Bear Eden the face for radio behind the scenes the technical genius techical genius that he called himself which leaves me baffled and today we are joined with Lee Maria how

Are you yes I’m good guys brilliant thank pleasure to have you here thank you for having me here good yeah thank you I know it’s been a bit of a a wait cuz I’ve kind of meant to be here and then had to sort of reschedule but yeah we’re here you’re

Here now that’s the main thing we’re here we’re ready to rock and roll and the magic podcast is we were here exactly when we’re supposed to be so thank you very much is it Lee Maria or Lee um Le Maria’s fine if you can’t if you can remember that I can I

Can t Maria Le Maria T Maria’s fine um Le Maria thank you very much for coming up uh we we’re going to talk uh about your sister mhm unfortunately you’ve lost your sister now but we’re going to talk about the the her life and and the the misgiving the the the things

That have happened and and and and we’ll get into but before we get into that we always like to go back to the start find out a bit about you your sister your childhood where you grw up and then we’ll we we’ll move on from there okay

So um yeah cm is a baby of our family um she we used to ni we did nickname her velcro um because she was just my dol’s bluee girl um like I say she was the baby she was the last born and she was just honestly she I laced every RI and turn

Of my daddy um where my daddy was she was um and she just loved him and face vers he loved her too um we grew up in down Patrick uh grew up in a in a Housing state in down Patrick and we had a great life growing up um my mom and

Dad were were amazing parents um we had amazing neighbors we had amazing friends around us um yeah I’ve got an older we’ve got an older brother older sister myself and Catherine and her being the baby like we tortured her I’m not going to lie like we did torture um like we

Used to do crazy things to her it was terrible so we used to like get her in a blanket and like swing her and PR we weren like we were going to let her go on the sofa but we used to like let go

We at her and she used to CR into the wall and stuff and uh we as you do yeah as you do as you do um and then was the age cap between Catherine and I was three three years and yeah um we used to like robber selection boxes and then

Stick all of the turkey lights into her box cuz it was one chocolate you hat it oh god um but a great kid um a lovely lovely child just a just a really outgo beautiful beautiful kid she really was like um and yeah we we love to realize

Their like and growing up then was there your old you have an older brother and sister what was the age gap between them and and Katherine um so probably about eight years and then about six and then three so you all close enough we were really close yeah we’re all really close

In age yeah and and schooling wise what you all want the same school all three guards went to the same school yeah we did indeed um ion actually had just done a massive big thing there with our old secondary school they this is their last year of independent teaching they’re

Amalgamating next year this year this this next teaching year um so they are using this last year in memory of Catherine so they’re dedicating this last year to Catherine’s memory which is beautiful really really lovely um really lovely I I I um devised a project on the back of Katherine’s death called Kitty’s

Project and we’ll talk about that a be bit later on but on the back of delivering that to the school to the students and in samares they’ve Now supported the welcome organization here org ni support um but so then you you R through the same school and what about

College did you goool to college or work or or um well my brother went on to be a chef um a great chef he is too um my older sister went to University the one and only who went to University I went on to college and Katherine didn’t um

Academically it just she wasn’t that strong academically um and I suppose based on that sort of comment that’s kind of where it all sort of started to go wrong for Katherine um she had a massive Mass massive um group of friends in school and they they grew up together

In in the estate that we grew up in um but there was like particularly five of them that were really really super close um great great crowd of girls that were and supported each other and helped each other out and I think for me I’m really I’m able to identify and pinpoint

Exactly where I believe things started to go a bit wrong for Katherine um and she was 15 and she was in fourth year and so out of these five friends there was one of those friends who passed away um nothing suspicious or anything um she just had a health issue that she passed

Away from and for me that’s that’s the point in Katherine’s life where she started to display to display something wasn’t qu quite right with Catherine after that no they are friends they they supported each other they had that peer support it was fine um the school you know helped

Them where they could with the loss of this this really good friend who they’ been I mean these girls had been together from them were Nursery School we not fourth year at this stage you know so you know I suppose taking it back to where I’ve sort of touched on

Her and daddy were very very close you know that relationship um Katherine started to really started to withdraw you know she started to show SS of you know she was very suspicious she was very mistrust on her people and you know she was quite impulsive she was angry

She was she was just lashing out it just wasn’t our child that just wasn’t her um and this Behavior just continued and continued and just escalated and it escalated and she was just she was kind of off the scale but no one kind of took a step

Back and was like hang on a second you know we’ve we we know this girl we know her sisters we know her brother we know her mom and dad we know the family she’s come from what’s Happening Here something’s just not ringing true

Um and that for us back then and I and I know I’m working back 23 24 years here guys I I know that I understand that and mental health at that point was definitely not talked about it wasn’t discussed it just wasn’t um did we know anything more than what we know today

About mental health I would hope so um but yeah it was very evident there was something wrong with Catherine’s mental half at that point and what way was she did what signs was she display was she doing you know in her behavior obviously it sounds very much is this more a

Hindsight with more knowledge now of the situation and and studying it you’re seeing these or at the time where you’re like you know she’s just going through a phase and this has happened her friend or what way did she start spiraling as you were saying yeah well she just was

Completely like she had cut all communication she didn’t want to spend time with us she isolated herself you know she was like going out not coming home for days on end you know there was place at the door there was neighbors here lifelong friends my parents at the

Door saying listen you know he need to have a word with Catherine here she’s she’s just completely acting out here you know so there was you know there was different scenarios where Katherine was causing havoc and that’s what she was doing she was causing Havoc um and I

Suppose they address the the the question on is that did we realize what was happening back then no we didn’t um but we weren’t medically trained to understand or to you know to work out what these symptoms and what these signs were what was what was Gom you know my

Brother my older sister and I were perfectly normal people but yet this kid was completely off the reels and we didn’t know um and I think the sad part about all of that sort of seeing her behavior and and watching her behavior was that Society gave her a label at that

Point in her life she was the bad kid she was the kid that just wanted to cause Havoc she was the kid that didn’t care when an actual fact she didn’t know what was on with her and it was only later in life which we’ll touch on as well that we then

Understood all of this finally um so she literally got through from her early teens um and and in her early teens you know I I kind of need to I always try and make this quite clear you know me talking about this and me raising awareness about this this isn’t

Me point fingers or proportionably him to anybody about what had happened to Katherine and about where Katherine was kind of let down um for me it was always about trying to understand what could have what could have helped that situation what what could where was the

Support for us in order to help that situation then there wasn’t any back then and that’s that’s okay we understand that and there wasn’t any um but as as cman through you you know our later years you know in 200 4 so we’ve gotten from 1987 to 2004 and she um

Yeah her life is just manic at this point and I mean her life is manic in what way and that she was just self Haring um she was trying to take her own leg from multiple occasions she just completely shut down from the world and

That poor kid had no idea and what about substances that she turned to any substances very very soon after this initial trauma in her life of losing her friend substance abuse and alcohol abuse came very quickly after that came very very quickly after that and then we’re

Thinking to yourself so is it just that she has an addiction to alcohol and drugs but that was quite evident later on that that wasn’t why she was taking alcohol and why she was taking drugs we we always see that it tends to be the secondary cause of of the main issue was

A mask It’s A coping mechanism you know you have said it and me and Sean are are fully aware we grew up in a in a different generation than now people are aware and children and even you see children in school now they’re talking about feelings and all it was not we

Needed to paint this picture for anyone listen in there’s a massive gulp between 70s and 80s babies and then ughs and 10 babies now in the in the awareness and and we’re talking in hindsight when I think back of some of the children that I grew

Up with I know Identify some of them that I was like they might have had ADHD and that more explains why they were they might had this you’re more aware of it but not at the time you’re aware of it you just think there are there are

Bad they’re a Messer they’re the black sheap they’re and that is as you say that label comes and and and then it become self a filling prophecy where they get this title and they might as well play it and they do become that they become that

Label I mean cine is very evident to that she became that label because what that label done the cine was it literally it it had taken away her selfworth it had taken away her her love for herself and she didn’t believe in herself she she and and the problem with

That is is because because she didn’t understand what was going on in her own head she her demons tormented her her demons tormented her to tortured her um and yeah she used alcohol and she used drugs to basically you know to shut those demons up and that’s what she done

And that’s what a lot of people do a lot of people do that like I work with some of the most um vulnerable women in Northern Ireland um and that’s what they do because it’s their coping mechanism because they can’t cope you know why I remember um I’ll probably yeah I remember one

Time um um Catherine had um tried to take her own life and she had cut her wrists and I remember ringing me and I we had brought her up to where we we live and we brought we got our re house not far from us and I remember

Ringing me this morning and said L I need your help I need your help so I went R and she had cut her her wrists open and I remember I rang the GP and the GP said to me you need to ring the community crisis team they need to come

Out in the Sor and I I Grand okay so rang them and I remember this I’ll never forget this and I actually tell our student nurses and queens this is well um especially the guys who are in that mental health capacity um area I remember this one guy sitting

Down and this gu said there Catherine are you depressed because you drink or do you drink because you’re depressed and she said that she was depressed because she drank and then two guys got up and left me with that child and basically said stop drinking and they laugh me with her

Her wrists are CAU right open and I’m sat with this kid going what do I do with this you know and I’m talking she’s only 8 years Dead next month God rester I’m talking maybe 12 years ago that wasn’t that long ago you know when she was doing this to herself and that

Was the attitude then you know thankfully I get the opportunity to share that story with our nursing students now and and queens and and they now are aware of that you know and and that’s going to help them you know in the future whenever they’re qualified

Nurses you know how to deal with a situation like that you know um but I’ve never forgotten that I thought that was terrible it was bad enough that she hadn’t had any support I’m not saying she didn’t have any support when she was older in life she did there’s no doubt

About that she did but for me it was too little toate see see through all that um you know obviously her friend passing and then obviously say you rebelled turned against everybody or whatever way it was and then the drink and alcohol so around all that you’re saying that

There was no help there but what was people going to be looking for we talk about mental health so much on this so what was it in Katherine’s mental health that was going on with her at that stage I’m going to get to that and make

Perfect sense so in 2008 so remember the word I used vcro where her and daddy so Catherine lived at home with my mom and dad and we were all Up and Away married and in 2008 my daddy died at home um we had lung cancer and cast found my daddy

Dead um and then 18 months later my mommy dies so we’ve got the first traum of her friend and then we’ve got the trauma Daddy and then we’ve got the trauma of Mommy and all of these things are just comining and compounding and compounding the issue and then in 2011

When she was 28 years of age she was diagnosed with an emotionally unstable personality disorder which is the most complex mental health issue that you can be diagnosed with and all of those sign and all of those symptoms back when she was 15 the impulsivity the anger the

Rage the mistrust and you know the suspiciousness all of that was there then and it was that one trauma that first trauma of her friend kicked that off sorry what was the diagnosis emotionally unstable personality disorder I’m not I’m not aware of of that but I I would can you explain it more

Tell me in like a layman’s terms where you know I I I I’m understanding that and I’m understanding the met the complexities of it but just that diagnosis is something I didn’t hear but it it seemed to me all the way through that that there was like a traumatic

Stress disorder but there was has been compounded with multiple but so you you are effectively born with this mental health issue okay but it just takes one trigger right to kick it off okay and that is how it all happened at the very early days in Catherine when when our little friend

Died and that’s exactly whenever all if you look at all the signs and symptoms of it she started to present with that and then every sort of trauma that came after that it just Amplified it and Amplified it and then her behavior just got and her addiction

Or intake of alcohol and drugs was massive at that point like and tell me you know what was the relationship like then it’s very hard to maintain a relationship with somebody like when they’re when they’re going off like that what what what it became of of your relationship with with your your sister

I’m so glad you’ve asked that question so what I what I explain um particularly when I’m working with you know some of our most vulnerable women um in Northern Ireland is that there’s family members who absolutely have the Copa mechanisms and the coping skills to deal with loved

Ones who are in active addiction addiction through mental health issues there absolutely are I am the prime example however there’s family members that can’t Y and they they just can’t do it so what they do is they they go into fight ORF flight mode and they start

Backing off and they start backing off and they start backing off okay um and the ripple effect that that has on families is horrendous it is horrendous you know the impact of that for me I was very very lucky that I am a very strong person and I never ever ever ever once

Never once turned my back on her I never once she knew that I loved her and she knew that I was always there for and I was was always there for always so I think in total 17 years of my life I was her care I was her go-to I was her

Support network I was the one tell me Le Maria and that’s amazing and I can the love and compassion that you have for your we sister you still talk about it that we that we and and I love that because what come of her life wasn’t her doing the spiral and she couldn’t

Control it but there’s going to be a lot of people listening here and not everyone has that level of compassion and and that that you have and that’s not to say they don’t love them at don’t some people detach from people because of self-preservation they can’t watch

What’s happening to them they can’t have they don’t have they’re not emotionally built to deal with that and they B the head in the s or they turn and and they do that not out of they no longer love them so it’s been it’s amazing that and

And and I would get that from the type of person you are it’s amazing that you help but just some people then that that has h a family member that may be sping like this and and they just they they they can’t do it and they can’t do and

They are not to be judged for that they go into protection mode they have got to protect themselves they perhaps have to protect their own families and their own you know partners and and that’s fine and no one should ever judge anybody for that you know and for you but is it is

That not hard is there not a friction then between an Our member if you’re the one that’s that there’s a massive burden and it’s a burden and I don’t mean it as in it’s a burden and thing you love her and it’s something you’re ready to do

But it takes it takes a lot from you it takes a lot out of the person that’s trying to help because they’re getting the lies and they’re and they’re getting the disappointment and then when they think they’re getting them on on the straight now something else happens and

And you’re carrying that can on your own does that create an inward friction between other siblings that maybe have decided to take a step back do you do you get present there 100% 100% you know I call it the I call it the Perpetual C the Perpetual cycle of of Katherine’s

Life you know she tried she couldn’t do it she tried she couldn’t do it um you know I was very fortunate guys that you know honestly I they say a woman ship marry a man like their daddy and I did because my husband is an Angel um to put

Up by like 17 years of my devotion to her because she was the third person in our marriage and I have never regretted that and I knew I would never regret that and he was very patient and he loved her he loved her like I loved her

Um I’m not saying my older and brother didn’t love her my older brother and sister didn’t love her they had they they adored her they just weren’t built to deal with it and unfortunately and I say the word unfortunately because it really is unfortunate and I really want to try and

Get this point across is that my older sister um is also an alcoholic and also died too also nearly died two years ago um in July um and for me and her and she BL admit this that that was down to paulan into that protection mode so she completely

Walked away what we found is whenever so Paula was so um emotionally and mentally like struggled with Catherine um because she couldn’t help her she just didn’t she just couldn’t do nothing for her um and Katherine’s crazy behavior as well but you know part of what happened with

Paula in the end and um was that because she walked away she didn’t the guilt that Paula feels for not being there for Catherine and being that support network has paula has very very much struggled with that very much struggled with that you know and that’s not far on her

Because she’s now suffering with her mental health because she had to walk away and she didn’t you know I had I had the nights in the streets with Catherine I had the mornings in the streets with Catherine I done all the hospital visits you know I got her picked up off the

Street I got her banded up and fixed and everything else you know I was there strap of a hat and that was okay because I I was able to do that Paula wasn’t you know and my heart was out there because she’s nice offering that and she doesn’t

You know she feels partly responsible because she wasn’t able to help her but I think in relationships like that there there’s there comes a point in your life that you have to protect yourself you we’ve heard from so many different people yeah and whenever you’re involved in that there you there’s mistrust

There’s there’s lies there’s everything and if you keep getting hurt and hurt and hurt yourself it comes a point that you’re like I can’t take any more of this and I know you were there for her and you always had her back but stepping back was the right thing for your sister

To do 100% And I think we need to make that clear that 100% as as tough at that as tough as that is to step away it is the right decision to make for some people where you were mentally strong and you knew that you had the

Strength to stay with your sister and look after and do all that but I’m sure you had your highs and lows with your sister through all that as well definitely yeah definitely it wasn’t easy Jesus it’s it’s very it’s a very vicious on first cycle we’ve seen

This when you lose somebody to an addiction and and you did have to step out of that ring and I I made a a a comment before with a podcast we’ve done recently um the thing about addictions sometimes it’s like the person’s in the room and they’re pulling the pin and the

Grenade and you have to decide if you’re in the room with them or you’re out but it always leaves the guilt there and it’s it’s an unfair hole because you want you wanted to help you want maybe you weren’t equipped to help and you had to protect yourself and it

Just it and and like you won’t ever have that pardon me you won’t ever have that regret you 17 years and and and and and it’s is because I don’t think I could be the person like you I’m not like that I’m Different I would get the point

Where somebody kept doing that to me i’ be like [ __ ] this I you know I’ve had enough of this and and and then it would eat me up afterwards because should I have done something different and that’s the awful thing about it on and it just

Messes so much with your head like but we haven’t discussed this so your sister and yourself and your brother you’ve lost both parents you’ve lost your sister and a very sure like that that’s that and for play to you that is to anyone it’s a Liv nightmare that so like

And and to watch the slow unfold it’s the hardest thing is to watch the person fight that fight inwards when you’re seeing them and their fighting this and their the demons they have and they’re trying to fight this and they’re not winning it’s the slowest car crash like it’s it’s

Just like the ripple effect through your family and and I’m sure for your father and your mother before they pass to watch the their baby like the ripple effect through a family it it’s it’s the toll that it still has with with your sister up until and I don’t has she has

She stopped drinking now has she she was two years sober in December past well for play there yeah and uh and I can see you being my pray there it uh but it’s always a fight and and and it’s a mental health one but with so with that and how was your parents

Relationship with Catherine you know I know you were fit to Handler in times but how was it you know if your dad so hard for her father that’s the close relationship he had with daughter and to watch her and and not be fit to help and

And and not know how to help and there’ll be so many parents here that are heartbroken and they’re watching a child and they’re trying and if love fixed these things they’d be easy fixed absolutely because this is what I always said like if if love fixed the problem

All these people be cured because they’re loved but we’re not equipped and we don’t know and and it happened then and there’s been misgiving and there’s something I didn’t want to ask you this year your your sister tried to take her life a few times do you think the the

Mental health Team and the way they respond to somebody that had multiple attempts changes that their level of compassion diminishes because it wasn’t the first if it’s the first time maybe we can help them but if it happens a few times do do you think they’d be a bit

More blasé I know that’s a very loose term but the way they spoke to you the way they said that and just left after do you think sometimes they they see a record cuz we have spoke to a few people about this and they said that do you

Think sometimes they say go this isn’t the first time and then their mindset changes that yeah because they’re good at the end that oh this is just a cry for help this is to cry for help but is it a cry for help you know if you’re

Cutting your wrists it’s a very extreme cry for help absolutely absolutely and like I suppose for you living in them asell you know knowing that this is multiple times and and and thing but what what when it really spired and then she was on the streets what way was that

And what oh God that was so tough that was so tough so on the yeah she effectively became homeless on the 15th sorry 19th of March 2015 um yeah her life there was mitigating circumstances um which we’ll not talk about but yeah that was self-destruct at its absolute Maximum

Impact um and oh God love her her her Pure Life and you know I think out of all of that and even through that whole journey whether on the streets living on the streets and living homeless she never wanted us in that environment with her she never wanted us to see her like

That God love her she really didn’t like and I used to it’s quite strange talking about it now but like I used to be sad at my about eat my dinner and I used to get this good feeling in my stomach and I go I have to go and my husband’s going

L i atat your dinner and I’m like I have to go and I used to get this this feeling it could have happened to me at any time of the day like I had seen me getting out in my bed at 1:00 in the morning going to the street in Bast

Looking for a f her no just now I know she’s fine back home sh change child ready for school and way to work that was my life for 11 months well 12 months actually um exactly 12 months um and she honestly guys she just she had been assaulted she had been attacked

Um at one point she was so badly brutally beat um she had uh like 208 staple stitches down her forehead by the time we had gotten her treatment in the hospital she was just like why anybody had to live that life is just yeah God love her and she was

She was good as gold the Christmas before she died my sister-in-law and I went down to loads of stuff for like the shop or we bought our load of stuff for or we Christmas presents and stuff and we get we bought her a coat and you [ __ ] give it to the homeless person

Besid her she just went here I don’t need that and just give it to the homeless person besid her and I’m like Catherine really that was for you and she went she needs it more she had a massive heart and it’s Testament because you know I I’m okay to

Say this like she was ining out of um hey Bank young offenders um over the course of a couple of years and you know I do I do a bit of um work with the like I say the women um there as well and even the staff would attest that you

Know she was just a great kid she was just an amazing kid like and she just was dealt a [ __ ] H life like well can asked you a question obviously your sister was diagnosed then mhm but at that point what what was the help there was it medication was it um trying to

Get her to go and speak to somebody for help like what was there any help at that stage so she was 28 years of age at that stage Sean so the sheer complexity in need was far greater G than anything you could ever imagine her mental health was completely off the scale her

Addiction to alcohol and her addiction to drugs was huge okay so they they try to you know what’s more important do we fix the addiction or do we tackle the root cause what’s the trauma what’s causing the addiction you know when they talk about yeah gets over gets over gets

Over but hang on a a second you’re never going to be able to get someone’s super or clean off drugs until you actually determine why are they there in the first place they’re not there for no reason like my sister most certainly wasn’t there because she thought it was

Good crack she was there because her mind was so messed up that she couldn’t live a normal life like you and I she just couldn’t you know so get to the RO cause of that and then look at that you know and for me that’s but can I ask a

Question and I get that and this is like the the the the the the the Chicken and the Egg here how do you get to to the root cause if they’re on alcohol or they’re on drugs you know and I I know what you’re saying you know instead of treating the

Secondary problem we need to move to the but how when that’s maybe clouding the Judgment or or making them you know their behavior you know and and incoherent and it’s so hard at that point because trying to treat the addiction to then treat why you’re

Addicted or do we do it the the reverse order I don’t know I’m not I’m not a spices I don’t know the best way to approach that but I do understand that for a lot of people their frustration was you’re not addressing you’re kicking the can down the road here you’re not

Addressing the major issue but while she was on drinking alcohol would that have been a possibility to get through to to make a break through on that or absolutely not absolutely not and that’s why I do some work with an organization Bast and one of the campaigns that we’re

On at the minute is that we want to try and get a dual diagnosis Center um made available um in Belfast because if you’ve got the Dual diagnosed Specialists within the same building then you’ve got a half a chance you know you can tackle one or tack of the other

You know but that’s kind of you have to tackle both together um and that’s really important you know that’s really important who what do you what do you call this uh organization you work with oh The People’s Kitchen The People’s Kitchen yeah the People’s Kitchen um I

Do a lot of work in their campaigns um like we’ve just done um empty shoes lost lives campaign so in 2021 there was 212 people died in the street on stor yeah um and then the one before that was enough it’s an off campaign it’s very powerful that because I remember looking

At that and I’m just thinking we we need to First in this Society tackle the stigma of addictions we we’ve talked about this people just think if someone’s an alcoholic or a drug they the scourge of society and they don’t want nothing to do and if you could turn

Play 100% would reckon this people and and now people are good horse and majority of people are good Hearts but an overwhelming opinion and in homeless people don’t realize that the homelessness crisis that’s happening now and it is a crisis because it’s getting day by day but people would far R move

Them away to somewhere they can’t see mhm and not and and turn a blind day and I know that sounds awful and people be listening this and saying I but that this is this is the way Society is and and until we address that that the the main issues here and how massively

Underfunded homelessness is in Northern Ireland I know you have the The People’s Kitchen and you have Simon community and you if few but every one of them crying out for help and with how to sit in government and out any and they’re not getting helped they’re not getting financially backed by the government

Sure they’re not um these charties aren’t no yeah no and like you know that that that’s that’s well that’s one issue but when you’re when you’re going back and forth and your sister’s there and and and and I know this sounds awful but some people say you

Know I I I want to try and help them but they they’re more peace now than than the life and termo they had did I want you know losing a family member you can’t even I can’t even put that in but would you want to keep them when

This is the turmoil in the life that they have you know it it it you know when you got that call the call you’re dreading how did you hear about it how did you do you know it was always um it was always a conversation that Daren and I

Used to have and he used to say you know what would you ever do if you got that phone call cuz I lived every day in my life with she trap addition I did I’m not going to lie you know while she was not to while she was homeless but also before that

Um and I’ll never forget it um so I touched on the the the date that she became homeless which was the 19th of March 2015 on the 19th of March 2016 was the day she died exactly a year to the date um that she died and a friend of

Mine who had B mother who like she’d done like this Outreach work for the homeless she was she’s amazing girl and she had been with Catherine the night before and she had brought her Catherine loved milk and tomato soup don’t ask me what that was about together yeah so

Donna used to bring her milk people take cream of tomato anyway well yeah so and Donna had brought this to her and it was actually quite sad um later on when we had Katherine’s inquest um but Donna had brought her this soup and this milk cuz

That’s what she loved and she had taken a be drink of it and then Donna had tucked her in and she had gone check the rest of the city for other um homeless service users and she was feeding lons and stuff and she she double back on

Catherine and at the time what Donna just thought she was like completely out for the count snoring her little head off so she talked her around again and just made her nice and comfy but on B Don she was actually dying because we learned in Katherine’s

In quest I’ll go back to the getting this phone call the next morning I get a phone call from Donna at 9:00 to S the police have asked me for your number and I was like okay so I end deliv him in darn turn the TV off I think the police

Going to be called and the next thing this on Mark police guard is pulled up by T our door and dar went yeah kiddo this is the call and I just knew I knew in my heart um sorry and uh I opened the front door and I remember saying that I get the

Child cuz the child was upstairs and he went and sorted the child out and it was a quite a small police woman and a big tall police man and he was like I can’t say this any other way other than your sister’s dead she was

Found in Oracle she that was a 10 10 so she died at 10 9 um I was actually an off duty nurse from the Royal and was walking through town she come off a clock shift and was walking through town and this guy had flagged her and they

Tried to save her life and stuff but that’s that didn’t happen but anyway um that’s how we found out Katherine had died and um yeah that the the the trauma of that was really really tough really really really tough um like my brother and husband had to go on identify her

And oh God that was a nightmare and but look she yeah she and it was only the weekend before um don’t really like to talk about religion but I was in Mass the weekend before and I was fighting with my mommy and daddy and I was like just

As you’ve touched on begging my mommy and daddy to take her how how cruel can someone’s life actually be you know to live the life that that child was living you know when I asked her many occasions would you rather live a life as AAR or

Live a life on the street drunk not knowing where you are how safe you are and she said that’s life that’s life she you know how is that like we can’t we can’t compute that but we we don’t live our reality either and the pain and the suffering and and

And not knowing how to compute that and her mind she didn’t know how to and was there any peace for you I know that’s an awful question and I don’t mean that in that way but for some people that have lost someone sometimes they have a level of guilt

Because they were a bit of Peace because watching someone you love and you’ve tried everything and you can’t see anything that’ll save them watching them live a turmoil and a and a suffering is is as heartbreaking as anything because where’s the light where’s the change you pray every day that something will

Happen and and we can change it but you know you know and that’s why I I I that’s was when you said that like you know you wanted your mom and daddy to look after that and it’s Brave of you to say that because a lot of people will

Sure that and there will be some people won’t say that but you just want them to be a piece at that point absolutely I didn’t have I didn’t have I couldn’t find comfort in her death for a long time um but eventually I did and you

Know it it was It was kind of it was a bit crazy because I went from like 17 years of her care and looking after her and running after her and then she was gone and I was lost I was I was lost for

Two years I was like what am I what will I do in my life you know I had a really good job at the time and you know I’d work my way up and I was doing really really well and I was just like no I I

No I just need outside of my four walls nobody got nothing for two years of my life I literally just cut the world off because I couldn’t isn’t this mad right so my life revolved around her I never had a minute when she life but I couldn’t function without her I and I

Don’t know if that makes sense that do sometimes I say that and people go what but you’re that nurturing type and your purpose was to care for her to love her and because where she wasn’t caring for herself and giving herself the love that where you felt you had the step in and

Do that and then it’s been taken away so it’s that purpose but now the legacy of Katherine isn’t isn’t there it hasn’t ended there you’re now going on to help people to do things that do these talks in schools and then we touched on that you have the foundation but just before

We move on to that and I think this is important for people to to take time forsel you then have to have time for yourself and your mental health you’ve lost your baby sister You’ve Lost Your Mother and Father you you know was there time there then you had

To just sit back and and and and take care of yourself I I did I did for those two years I think for me through through all of that and through you know having that responsibility and she that sounds really bad she wasn’t my responsibility

She wasn’t my child but I just she was just yeah I think for me the sad part of all of that um and all of that support and all of that time I spent with her all of that you know the external agencies that I tried to you know engage

With the helper and everything else you know out of all of that I didn’t get to say goodbye dear I’m that hurts still I didn’t get to say goodbye you know and I think for me that still that still gets to me that still hurts I she she knows what how you loved

Her and and yeah everything you give there there’s nothing you should be beating yourself up for there’s many many a person that I wouldn’t judge because I’m one of them would have walked away long ago so you know I think you need to to free yourself from that because you’ve done

More than anybody would do and what you going on to do for her yeah in her name you know it’s only a short time you be with again it’s it’s not a you didn’t get to say this is why always say to people we we we tee oursel down with

Guilt we tie ourself with thing and we but she knew you loved her and she knew what you wanted for her she did so you should have no questions for yourself you you should you absolutely not because I I I’m not I’m I’m a lesser person I couldn’t do it that’s the truth

I don’t I don’t have I I don’t have that that that level of compassion that you had you you know so that’s why I’m saying it because I know it you done more for than that because if it was me I don’t I don’t think I could do that

But that’s that’s the difference and this is the hard thing but I want to ask you because I want to see talk about the legacy is one but I think it is important for people out there that are in the similar position or were in the same position and realize that there’re

Still always there’s always things but do you think if at at the very start if we could have identified the her mental health and and the problems she was had at the very start before the spiral before was compounded you know and and this is one I want because sometimes people are like

I don’t think we could have helped I don’t think there was options but do you think there would have been options if if she had received her diagnosis early on when she lost her we friend and and there you know for mental health from from things we can learn for mental

Health and for people understanding that do you think there was that I’ve said this in front of our politicians while they were active in storment I’ve sat in a room with Rob and Swan and Davy hary and Naomi long them all and I have been very open and honest had Catherine’s

Mental health issues been identified managed and taken care off at a very early age I have no doubt in my mind C would still be alive today I think there’s the mark in society that we need to improve on we need to be the these people that are

Vulnerable and need that help early on need this and that’s something in in in young ones because there’s many situations we’ve had where people are like I don’t know I don’t know but there’s situations where you you’ve obviously studied in depth the the the mental health the complexity of it and

And and look back because sometimes when we speak to people they’re very clear in the courses of event but what what what what this is is hindsight conversation when we become educated we then identify things things that we didn’t identify at the time so when you see traits and

Things that you now know to talk about we were not aware at the time this was just something and the this was a phase and then the phase progressed you know so sometimes we speak with hindsight and we identify things but it wasn’t always as clear as that but going forward for

Our society now is to identify them things as were as as it is if you see somebody and they’ve lost somebody and they’re not talking to someone or they’re not in a group of friends or they’re certain we the short and play there is and sometimes we hear like

There’s like your sister was failed and and I know you’re not being you’re not bashing the Mental Health Service as much as I probably would be I would be angry and then I would say you probably went through that cycle you’re angry and and they got that and now but

Proactively you know setting up better better identifying points and and people talking and I think it’s great that people talk sometimes I think talk too much about sometimes I think we we’re making people weak because we talk too much sh about but the only thing with it

Is it sounds like it’s very complex mental health that you know what she was diagnosed with oh yeah is it is it hard to give a diagnosis on it though do you know what I mean well how well for me that’s really simple they were able to

Diagnose her when she was age 28 yeah why not diagnose her at age 15 well now some of these mental conditions are not 20 years old old and 30 years old and like com uh I’m I’m only asking the question like some some mental health um diagnosis are very hard

To spot but I’m that’s the only reason I’m asking why did it take till 28 years of age was it something that was hard to spot or like why did it take so long do you know when I find out about her mental health diagnosis at her

Inquest I didn’t even know she had one had a rqu yeah that our corner of Northern Ireland um held on the back of her death because we couldn’t get a cause of death and it was then when I was given that report that I had learned about this

Diagnosis and what did that feel like to know that was there some comfort not when you did it did it make things clear for you it made things clearer but it didn’t give me any comfort it didn’t bring me any comfort I know you know there was clearly something wrong with the child

And you know and I and then you know way later on in life whenever that diagnosis and stuff came about guys Beyond No Illusion she had all the help and all the support that could have been given to her but that’s not when she needed it

Too late it was too late she needed it then not not I cuz the she complexity need at this point in her life was so massive you know she was so destroyed by our mental health and the addiction was just too great you know and that’s why

You know you know I I just want to always try and make sure that you know that early intervention for me is key is key to you know mitigating and hopefully eradicating that end result of you know that Perpetual cycle of homelessness and addiction and in and out of prison and

You know I I think that that can change that you know and I do I believe that wholeheartedly no and and and I get that and I do believe that because it it it just seems you ever see them like where the the the the parallels of life where you see

Them change and and and you know the trajectory on your life and your mental health where it changes and people can always go back till nearly points were were changed and and if at that point you know we we’ve met a lot of people that have maybe had addictions and

They’ve received help and they were like if I had spoke to the the person I spoke to now at that point it would have helped so much more so I’m I’m 100% convinced you’re you’re you’re right what is now what now you’ve set up you’ve set up the a foundation or oh

Kitty project yeah Kitty’s project yeah um so kitty’s project is like I’ve just touched on its early intervention into youth mental health and the initiative um is like the the initiative is that but for me the objectives um particularly within our our education system um you know the first objective

Is to create a safe space you know that’s create a safe space for our young people cuz our young people have massive massive feelings you know and for me our young people will show us before they tell us that there’s something wrong you know their behaviors how they present

You know different you know as you talked about a traits that aren’t normal for them you know and this is what I tell you know our kids in in school you know you’re with each other every single day if anybody’s going to notice as at

You you know so instead of um you know judging and maybe slightly bullying or whatever you know support and encourage each other you know ask that question you know the one thing that I have that shines through I think out of everything you know is that that compassion you

Know just have a bit of empathy and a bit of compassion about you and you know that goes so so far um but yeah so and very quickly the objective is create a safe space you know build the trust and remove the stigma you know that’s the three objectives to the initiative and

Is this like a a peers where you’re educating children to PE support each other where they where they can identify or is just to educate the the teachers that they can or Collective both basically both um yeah so I amum yeah I’ve had the I’ve been looking

Enough that I’ve managed to cover a few of our secondary schools in Northern Ireland now with it um it has been received really really well new feedbacks really positive um and it’s just you know it’s about just helping these kids understand that you know there’s repercussions to

You know saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing you know just just keep an eye on each other and just support each other and no matter what don’t [ __ ] take drugs no 100% I think I think that the show don’t [ __ ] take drugs please

Please don’t get Dr look listen um you know that’s why I asked you early on about the sance we we know that when people are struggling that they they they look for escapism and copis mechanisms and and the two standard seem to be alcohol and drugs M and that’s why

We’re talking about that but I love that I love that idea that you know you’re going into school because if you come in and spoke to me and the compassion and the loss that I know you suffered I would be like this is just our [ __ ]

Here paid to come around here and do this here I would you’re speaking from that place I think you you know and and I think it’s beautiful that the Legacy will be there might be one friend turned to our friend and and just get them to talk and change the trajectory so it’s

Not like Catherine it’s not going to drop they’re going to talk at that point and and and and that Legacy is going to be that her death wasn’t you know in vain there’s going to be people from this that you know you’ll never know about it

At all and you’ll never know but they’ll know and that’s okay yeah and and I think that’s lovely and I think it’s a very selfless uh thing I think I like that I like the fact that for me if you came in when I was young I could relate

To that you know the pain you’ve suffered someone talk in real life and I think that more schools should be open to having that and and I always juggle I always say we have to look after kids and teach them M Health but sometimes we need to tighten them up

Too because they’re they’re getting softer and softer as they go but if that is the world war and they are getting softer then that means we need to be more gentler because there’s going to be more children that are are going to struggle and and it is it’s becoming

Clear that there’s more children struggling yeah and especially at home we tend to do this we we we brush it away and we hide away from it before it becomes too much of a monster we can we can address you know like I said that you going through a

Phase that’s something we use a lot people say in terms it’s not really such a thing as a phase people don’t go through you know if something’s happening there’s a reason there’s a motive there’s a there’s a a consequence yeah so if people are listening and young ones and they think oh they’re

Only going to maybe talk to them or get them to talk to somebody that they trust one thing we always find with people that they’ve always said it doesn’t matter who it is you talk to as long as you find someone you trust somebody that

You you and and just sure that half that problem get it out and that’s exactly it and one of the big things that I um kind of had pushed her um I was lucky enough to get a sit down with with Siobhan O’Neil who’s our mental health champion

In Northern Ireland and um I had sort of had this sort of environment we’re talking about cine and um you know she was she was the first person I think out of all of the sort of scenarios that have been in that she actually said to

Me tell me about her from your V first memory and it was it was just a lovely conversation but for me you know with especially within the school set and then that post pry set and sry I’d having counselors in that school because every school has a p care Department we

We know that and have counselors and that’s okay don’t make a kid walk up back hard or during scho I didn’t even know we had when when I went to school and I’m not that I’m not that old like yeah that that you know I didn’t get water out of a well but

Like what I mean is there is a massive change so we can’t always knock there is a change now and there is more of an emphasis but it it doesn’t hurt to do what is your what is your goal now what is your aim to reach as many schools or

That that would be my that would be massive for me I would love to be able to present Kitty’s project to every single student year 12 13 14 throughout Northern Ireland I would love that and this is this your your is this what you’re doing now is this I can see

Obviously it’s your passion and you know one thing I I really enjoyed about this pod was we we’ve touched this and it’s a similar to one thing I said sometimes when we we lose somebody in them circumstances we remember the death and not the life

But when we start this pod the the light and the the love and the the passion that you have for your your we sister it just burns through that and I think that’s always to anyone that’s struggling at the minute you know try and go past the the the bad times try

And remember that and hold them there because they always were that way kid they just had life happened to them and and that’s the sad reality that that that it is you know when you said to give away you know she was good hearted honestly and this is going on

But now is this your passion is this what you want to do full time is this what you’re doing full-time or or no no no no I have a full-time job so anything I do I do in my own free time or I just use my annual leave days to do this

Tonight we’re trying to manage it all um but there is a wonderful service in Bast I I had been I’ve been lobbying and sort of campaigning for additional services for particularly our our women our vulnerable women in Northern Ireland so on the 19th of March this year uh next

Month which is C’s anniversary the there’s a new women service um that opened but we will be opened a year come March and it’s named in memory of Katherine amazing it’s fantastic honestly it’s just fantastic um yeah so it opened last March on her anniversary

On her 7th anniversary and it’s a t 10 bed full-time accommodation for some of our most complex where is that B fast that’s all I can tell you um but it’s it’s such a fabulous service it’s you know it’s it’s ethos is that it’s trauma informed

Support um and that were trauma you know as we all know um funded by the housing executive Ram by the welcome organization in balast um fabulous fabulous accommodation 10 beds 10 rooms 10 women can go in there that’s their home for a maximum of 24 months and the

Whole purpose of it is to help these women into that next step of Independent Living once they’re not homeless anymore that’s brilliant it’s F that is brilliant and and I have that in your sisters but I hope there’s so much more to come because you know it’s amazing

But what Northern Ireland is doing at the minute for their homeless is a finger in the dam there’s so much more needed done by our our our government here till to not just fix the media problem to address it and the other thing um as well is what they needed

Look at is that you’ve got family leers on within the psni within the prison service within um you know whatever other services out there but there’s no family Le is on for someone who has a loved one who is actively homeless on the streets there’s no support for the

Family members at all there’s just no support yeah so people don’t know how to handle it they don’t know how to deal with it and I think that’s massively important I think that’s something that stor might need to look at as well see for me and I have to be honest with this

This the naivity of me we live in a rural Country Town you know it’s not to say there aren’t people homeless there are I don’t see it in the but this is we living up in the sticks and people joke about us up here as young as I would now

Obviously I’m more educated and become more aware of this but I would have been like you people just assume this now and I’m not saying this because this is an ignorant point of view that I used to have i’ been like well if they have

Family why can and and no I know that’s ra you because that’s a very ignorant and I’m coming from I’ve obviously educated myself but but there’s so many people out there that would sh my old mentality and I’m like that’s not the oh I’ve had those people literally all over

The top of me for the exact same reasons um you could have took her home oh really could have taken her home it’s it’s and and you know what it is when I think about that but I’m saying that when I think about that I realize how

Stupid that was and and and and listen it’s not the the the only stupid ignorant thought I used to have and I had all these thoughts around what mental health was I had all these thoughts around what suicide me I had all these thoughts were and the older I

Got the more I know I don’t know and and that’s what I’m saying I I it’s it’s it’s I like that you said that because I want people to understand that there there need to be support because they think that this is just the way this is

And why why would they need to when when there’s so many people out there hurting too yeah so no um I want to thank you very much for coming up thank you so much guys and uh I’m sorry if we asked you a lot of stupid questions you didn’t

Ask me no stupid questions at all but uh you know as we move on this journey in the podcast and has become something more reasonable this is definitely h a topic we want to get out there and think but I just want to finish up and saying

I think what you’re doing in your sister’s memory is amazing so far BR thank you so much thank you so much thank you very much thanks Sean that