Finding Ćejf in Bosnia and Herzegovina

How Do You Find Ćejf?

Adventure, Sustainability and Growth in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

In this video podcast I talk to Kathi and Numa Numić, who discuss the development and plans for their travel agency, Ćejf, which focuses on mindful and sustainable travel in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

We look back on their successful first year, highlighting challenges, achievements, and the desire to expand their offerings beyond the well-known tourist spots.

Their preferred platforms for engagement are their website and Instagram, with potential plans to expand to YouTube in the future.

Find out more about Ćejf at: https://cheyf.ba/en/welcome/

Please also do share this video and leave a comment with any questions etc you might have.

Stay tuned for more exciting stories and adventures from the Englishman in the Balkans podcast!

Thank you for being a part of our podcasting community, and we look forward to bringing you more exciting content in the future.

Support the Podcast at: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/davidbailey

In this episode of the podcast, I’m going to link it to something that happened just over a year ago, and just over a year ago I came across Numa, uh, and Kathi Numić who are in Sarajevo, uh, and they had this pretty cool idea to open a travel agency.

I talked to Kathi for a little over an hour, uh, and I’ll put a link to that, uh, in the show notes. And she told me what the idea was and how they looked at launching this. Um, travel agency in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Um, maybe Numa will, uh, sort me out on this as we go through this edition of the podcast, but I always thought that starting a business in Bosnia and Herzegovina was like really, really difficult. Well, whether it was or whether it wasn’t, they have got now, um, a

Really super endeavor underway and it’s formed on the concept of Ćejf There’ll be some. Uh, links as well. I spoke to Numa in depth about what Ćejf is. And in fact, uh, we have guests here at the moment and the girl said, uh, I’ve come back for some Ćejf

So obviously this works and it resonates with people. So yeah, we’re a year on, uh, and today it’s a very sunny day in Sarajevo is a pretty miserable day, uh, in the North of the country. But welcome back to the podcast, Kathi and Numa, you know, back a year ago.

Um, as I said, you were coming up with this idea. Of, um, getting more people to come and see this beautiful. And I always still say it much misunderstood heart shaped country in Southeast Europe, in the Western Balkans. If people go back to our last podcast, they’ll, they’ll get the

Vibe from what you wanted to do then. As I say, we’re a year forward. So since its inception, um, how has it been building your mindful and sustainable travel agency? What experiences have you had? Was it as you thought it was going to be easier, harder? I would say it was the.

Rollercoaster we expect, but the good one, you know, not the scary rollercoaster where you’re like, I’m going to die. I’m going to die. No more like the, Oh my God, what’s coming next. And so exciting, but a little bit scary kind of rollercoaster.

Yeah, it was been, it has been a little bit stressful, but otherwise like, uh, nothing but rewarding, to be honest, it’s really, really going into a good direction. What is the response when. People get in touch with you. I know that you’ve got an amazing website.

You have an app, you have all these marketing tools to help you. But, uh, if you’re on Instagram in particular, there are so many people now, uh, trying to saturate the market, but, and I’m not saying this because I

Know you, but it happens to be a fact when you, when you go to your site, it is, it is very, very dynamic and it does entice people, I mean, that’s sort of. Work to produce an online presence that immediately gets people hooked, needs an awful lot of creativity.

There are two of you, and when two people work in a creative endeavor, there’s always, I won’t say the ego, but there’s, you know, a ling of ideas to who’s, who’s gonna do what. How have you managed as a couple, as a married couple, intimately involved in a business?

Uh, been able to make sure that things run smoothly to produce the product? That you have. I think, um, in the beginning, it was a little bit of a mess until we discovered that, uh, everybody should keep, uh, so that we know immediately

Who is responsible for what, uh, so we both come from a sales and marketing industry or like cutting, maybe like even more from PR and marketing. Uh, so it, it began in the beginning to, uh, that we think I shouldn’t have you done this and, and, uh, should I have done this?

So we set up clear, um, responsibilities. What is somebody doing? So, um, Kathi is definitely responsible for all the great things that you said, like the website and Instagram. Uh, the important thing is that I know as well, uh, what to do if, if Kathi

Can’t do it, but like she’s for the net creative part, and obviously I am for the operational part, everything regarding in Bosnia, since, you know, it’s There is no language barrier. So we, we set our, um, responsibilities very clear. So it doesn’t intervene between us because it’s most, it mostly happened

That I thought you are going to do this instead of, uh, that we are fighting about, uh, what should we have done that? So, so It was that learning actually, that it is like in a company, you need to do this. I need to do that. And then we know who is responsible.

I think one of the biggest learning was also, even though we live together and we see each other each day, we still need to treat it like the business it is. We need to set up meetings where we talk about certain things and we stick to the

Meeting times and we leave the meeting with a clear to do list for everybody. Okay. And once we started doing that, it has become much better. And we also have some free time again where we actually don’t talk about the business and just do other things that we like doing.

I’d like to pick up on language. Um, when I, when I go online, um, to find out and keep in touch with what you’re doing, um, I invariably, German language, uh, webpages, to be honest with you. Um, Kathi, you’re, you’re originally from German, Germany.

Uh, and of course, Numa is from Bosnia and Herzegovina. And when we talked informally on one of our meetings together, you know, you said you would like to get people from Germany to come down here for no other reason that, you know, the, the bucket airlines, the cheaper airlines were

Starting to penetrate Bosnia Herzegovina, uh, and so to bring people down. With Ćejf is Ćejf predominantly targeting Germans or have you got a recipe, is almost a one size fits all? Uh, I would say it’s predominantly targeting the countries that, uh, work to, uh, live to work, not work to live.

You know, like Germany still has this culture of people working a lot and being proud of being busy. And then you have the U S with the hustle culture as well. So I think it’s targeting this countries where we really teach the guests when they

Come and we’ve had American guests as well now a little bit more and you really have to teach them, look, you’re on vacation. It’s okay to sit here and have another beer. Before we continue the tour or it’s okay to stay over and sleep in

This town for two nights because we can promise you there is enough to see to stay longer and just relax and take time to unpack your bags. So I would say we, we are, so we are targeting the Western Europe market and as well, the North American market, predominantly, we started with the

German language because, uh, that was the easiest niche to, to, to target right now. We started actually with Ćejf Reisen and Ćejf Travel. We did it like on both languages. Uh, but it’s unfortunately only two of us. It was too much of a work. Um, the Instagram translation works very well.

So we, we kept it in German. The website is in, in both languages. We will soon as well, uh, integrate the, uh, Bosnian language. So it will be as well for the local people that want to, to, um, To experience shape. So, but the, the tours are constructed for the Western market.

So it’s a lot of hiking, wine, wine tours, and a lot of these possibilities to experience change, to take, uh, to take some moments to. Just to soak in the moment. So it’s that it is predominant in German, but it’s basically because of

The social medias are not allowing that we are doing it for both languages, like easily, so we had to choose our back. We also, we started out with German, but now two years in, it’s getting more blurry, we are getting more bookings from other countries.

So in the long run, we need to find a way that works for us to include everyone. But like Numa said, it’s just difficult because it’s very time intense. When the guests arrive, and I know it’s mindfulness, uh, and it’s chafe, which

Are, you know, they go hand in glove, uh, really, but when you get people that have catapulted themselves out of, uh, Memmingen airport in Southern Germany, and they arrive, they’re still in this culture of Rush, rush, you know, where’s the taxi? Oh my God, why is, why have I not got my taxi?

And, you know, why is there a traffic jam? This is all, uh, emotions that don’t jive with what you do. So how difficult is it to calm these people down in the shortest possible time to say, hey, you know, this is what chafe is, just calm down.

Do people find it an easy thing to take on board or are they slightly confused in the first, day that they’re with you. I think they were all a little bit confused when we tell them, you know, like chill Polako, it’s fine. Don’t worry.

And when they start seeing it as well, it’s not only what we tell them, but when they just look around at the, at the old town in Sarajevo, they will see like everybody’s working, but everybody’s having time for a coffee. People are relaxed, relaxed and chilled. And.

We start explaining and then telling them and I think very quickly they realize, yeah, okay, we are in that kind of a country. I mean, it’s, it’s a Southern country like you have that in Italy. We have that in Spain. You have that in Southern France. So they’re like, ah, okay.

I know, I know about it. I heard about it. I’ve been in this kind of countries. Okay. Let me, let me check out what this country has to offer. I would say, even though you have them. Okay. Now we have our beer. What’s next? And I’m like, have another, if you want.

Uh, and then it gets them confused because mostly it runs in their head. Okay. Do I have to pay some extra because I’m staying longer with this, uh, guide or is this going to charge me extra? I’m not sure, but like, uh, they have this a little bit

Of confusion, I would say, or. Yes. Yeah. But they get a hang of it pretty quickly, I would say too. And then especially, you know, you know, when we have guests that, um, get the rental car and then they venture out on their own, then very often they just tell

Us funny stories, you know, how they just ended up in a place, but it was fine. They didn’t find the location they were looking for, but they found something else and they just sat down and they just enjoyed and was just really nice.

And those are the moments where like, Oh, they got it. They, they know what Ćejf means now, you know, when you’re talking about, um, taking it slowly, somebody that I, I know quite well, uh, said, what, what, what should I do today? And I said, well, what do you want to do?

He said, no, no, that wasn’t the question. What should I do today? And when you’ve got the amount of wonderful places and wonderful experiences, um, that you can see, feel, touch and smell here in Bosnia, Herzegovina. It’s one of the hardest things for me to do.

Is it to go to an ethno village, or is it to go, uh, to a town? Right? And that always causes me angst, to be honest. So, when you have, uh, a group or an individual that comes along, how do you approach tailoring the experience to what they want?

Because, you know, let’s say there’s a hundred and fifty groups. Really cool things to do in this country and you’ve only got time for, for 20 of them. Do you have a, uh, a way of helping you or a, uh, a sort of drill or a, I don’t

Know, a flow chart to help you do that? So what we always do is we have a little questionnaire on our website. Where we ask the people questions already, like how long are they staying, what their approximate budget, what kind of activities do they like.

And we just list different things that you can do in Bosnia, like you can do kayaking, you can visit villages, you can do a cooking class. So we asked them a few questions already, and then we set up a quick

Video call, 20 minutes, half an hour, to get to know them even better. And there we ask some additional questions, like if they said they want to go hiking, we ask them, well, are you a proper hiking gear, going up the

Mountain for eight hours kind of hiker, or are you the leisurely, let me enjoy the view and the beer kind of hiker? You know, and we just explained to them a few things again, like most of them, they

Don’t say they want to drink wine, but then we ask again, so do you like wine? You know, we have an amazing wine region in Herzegovina, we have like 2000 years of VT culture and then they’re like, Oh yeah, we would like wine. And then after we’ve gathered all this information, they get

Their personalized travel plan. And if they feel it’s not a perfect fit for them yet, we can also edit it again, you know, we can add more things or remove things. But we also suggest them to stay two nights in one place at least.

To have time to soak up the vod and we don’t like to pack the day full of activities So what we like to do is to have one or a mix of two activities per day so that they always have time To just enjoy and do whatever

They want in, in the rest of the day. But we give them as well, a list of suggestions of museums and restaurants and stuff that they can do. Um, and as well, we give them a 24 hours, uh, kind of, uh, possibility to contact us.

But like most of the time, um, it’s, it’s kind of well planned and, uh, there is so much, so much to do, and even they could stay longer at certain places. I mean, the places where they go is like from Jajce to Mostar to Sarajevo and as well Banja Luka.

Um, there is so much to do around those places. So when they are staying two nights, it’s actually short. But since it’s mostly Western Europeans, they want to have a full schedule. But sometimes we are also strict with the people, you know, sometimes

They want to do things and we’re like, no, you couldn’t do that. You But no, you’re not going to do it. It’s a nice idea, but it’s not working. It’s too much driving. It’s too much in a day. We will not plan it for you like this.

We will plan it for you like this. And we have the final word because we know the country as, as experts, you know, like we should sometimes tell the people, no, no, no, you stay there. Trust us. And when they stay there, they’re like, you’re right. Yeah, I should have enjoyed that.

Yeah. Yeah. Because people just know pictures or think that they know what they want to do when they are there. But then they underestimate or overestimate the distances, the people, how much it takes time. So we kind of like said, Kathi said, have the final words about something that we’re pretty sure into.

We’re talking a year down the line now. You, you know, you’ve, you’ve, you’ve, you’re on the way, the inertia’s gone, um, and you’re traveling now, um, through what I would imagine is an amazingly exciting time. In the business in that year, have you identified, and I’ll use this

Word stereotypical, uh, which is most probably not the best word, but it’s a word I’m going to use if you sort of like identified a stereotypical traveler that uses chafe. We thought about that, but the thing is, we have travelers from all kinds of ages.

And all kinds of interests, like from culture to adventure, to, but what connects all of them is just, you know, this. Uh, desire for adventure, you know, they are all adventurous and curious travelers. Most of them have been to interesting destinations in their lives already.

Like now we have an older couple that booked with us. They just came back from Nepal where they did like a multi day trekking tour. And then we also have people that are more interested in luxury travel. So it’s really just the curiosity and adventurous spirit that connects them all.

You mentioned age there, Kathi. Um, what’s the average age of your, your client so far? That’s also, it varies. Like we had, we, we planned, uh, trips for students that traveled through the country by bus. And we have couples in their seventies that travel with a private driver for three weeks.

It’s really, it’s, it’s a complete range of, I would say it would be 35, but because we had people from 20 years old until 70 years old. So we, it, it, it might be that we are attracting people of our age, but really from a vegan students till carnivorous professors of 70 years.

We had it all. And I think, uh, the reason is that we are this personalized, uh, travel agency that adjusts to everyone. So that’s why they have this like questionnaire. I like wine. I like hiking. I like, uh, I don’t know. Like we had people traveling, um, like totally sustainable with the night

Train to split and then taking all public transports in, in, in, uh, Bosnia Herzegovina from Livno to Mostar to Sarajevo up to Banja Luka and Bihać. Um, all the time with the bus vegans, um, they were still students. So like in the early twenties.

And, uh, in, in, in couple of weeks, I have, um, set over 70 years old Swiss couple that, uh, will, I will be their driver and, uh, and, and, and we’ll drive them for two weeks through Bosnia and Herzegovina. It’s everything to everyone. It’s adjusted.

Sometimes people have me as a guide for two or three weeks, or sometimes we just see, see them once. Uh, because, uh, they, uh, just want to do a city tour. Then they have, uh, uh, air, uh, then they have a rental car and they continue on their own.

So it’s, it’s adjusted really to everyone. When they arrive with you, you, I’m sure you ask them, how did they find you? Right? There’s, it’s, there’s a plethora of platforms these days and the tourist market has never been an easy one. It’s always been full of.

Uh, mega competition so far in, in, in the research from your clients after one year. What is one of the defining things that is resonating with you about how they came to find you? I would say, um, so, so we, they contact us like through three, uh,

Most, uh, uh, so either recommendations, uh, from people that know me or, uh, like, uh, have been here. Second of all would be, uh, uh, our, uh, mostly Instagram, uh, presence. That is. I would say. And like, uh, the third one is over the webpage.

So we are, I would say we are a digital agency. Marketing agency that does tourism. Uh, and that would be our three main main ways how people co, uh, contact us. So we even, uh, didn’t, so we quit, uh, trip, uh, TripAdvisor at Via tour and

Get your guide, uh, because we didn’t like the way how they’re working. Um, and did it totally on a, the, the longer and, and, and, and more difficult path. Uh, and did it all over, uh, our straight B to C. So like, even we don’t. We don’t have a B2B partner.

Uh, so we have, we have online, like two of them, but we are not concentrated too much. So the more difficult paths we take took, but now it’s a really rewarding path. Your offering it is from, as you say, very small, slow, to go and see some exciting things as well.

Can you give me one example of each? I’m not saying the lower and the higher end, but, uh, you know, from something that people have found so amazing by just chilling to things that people have found amazing by having their heart racing at 200 beats a minute.

I think, well, rafting here is great. You know, that’s for the adrenaline junkies. Another activity that people really, really love, it maybe doesn’t get their heart racing in the adrenaline kind of sense, but in the, oh, I’m happy and a

Little bit tipsy kind of sense, is the, um, um, Cuvée making workshop, where they can make their own wine blend from three different drenched wines, you know, and they can try all the combinations. Which one do I like most?

And then they filled it in the big bottle and they corked it and they put the label with their name on it. And we had the guest who tested us and he was like, Oh, my son, my son was born and I finally opened the bottle that we made together and finally

Tried the wine that I made myself. Um, so that’s something that they really, really like. When you’re out and about looking around, uh, to find new things that you can incorporate, Um, what, and this is mainly for Numa, I think, what, what, what strikes you when you’re walking around, whether it be

Sarajevo, Mostar, or even out in a village, in the middle of nowhere, and you see something and you go, Wow. That would be good. How, what’s the mindset to walk up to somebody and say, excuse me, I see what you’re doing here. And I think tourists would like to see that.

Is that a difficult thing to sell to local people to come on board with, uh, offerings that, uh, you might have in the future for your clients? Um, I wouldn’t say it’s, it’s, it’s hard. So, so like everybody, I, first of all, the, the, the culture is, uh, I would say

In the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina, we’re going to, we’re going to Extremely, uh, in towards being a good host. So everybody wants to show that and everybody wants to, to, to, uh, somebody else to experience that the only, the only problem that might occur would be the language barrier.

So for example, very often people want to go to older people to see how they are living, especially in some remote villages like Lukomir or like Prokoško Lake. Um, and of course. Some old grandmother is living like farm life for the last 50 years.

It’s hard then to make a connection between her and some guests. So then I would be, uh, a translator’s where we are losing a little bit of, of, of that, um, sincere, uh, talk. That would be the only obstacle that, that I see.

Um, For me to discover what would be interesting for somebody is, um, is right now easy since I have lived in, in so many different countries and traveled. The world through my, through my job and through, through my passion. Uh, so, so kinda, I, I, uh, developed that eye that would

Recognize something like this. So it’s actually was easy for me to see the benefits and the beauty. Let’s say like about Sarajevo since I’m from here and then I see this expertise. But, uh, when, when Kathi came the first time, uh, to Sarajevo, when we were living back then in Cape town.

So, and I was showing her all of the things. that I thought would be worth seeing and I was as well struck, wait, but this is really great. And this is really cool. This is, uh, what people would come from all around the world in

Cape Town to see this, you know, like untouched beauty, great views. So like in Cape Town was different, like it was the ocean. It was uh, some different untouched nature and something that we have here. And the more I was like showing it to Kathi, it became more obvious to me.

And then as well for Kathi, so Kathi even It was actually Kathi’s idea that we should show Sarajevo or Bosnia and Herzegovina to the world. And, um, I was, I would, I thought I was not that objective, you know, like, of course, it’s my city, it’s my country.

I think it’s, it’s beautiful or worth showing, but it was, you know, like, uh, both of us, uh, heard like people needs to see this and me as well realizing, Hey, this is something very unique that we have so many different things in a, such a small area.

So we both kind of developed that. One of the things that really grates on me even today. And, uh, and recently somebody said, David, you’re, you’re, you’re looking at in the wrong view is the fact that The tourism industry in Bosnia

And Herzegovina, I think, could do a lot more to help the country. That’s my own personal opinion. opinion, especially when it comes down to these, uh, especially when it comes down to spending, uh, huge amounts of money to make an almost Hollywood style production of what the country looks like.

And I think that money could be much better invested into local villages to help people do something so that they could, uh, give an offering. And I was just blown away. How the heck did you get in your first year?

Onto German national television with a TV show that must, come on, must have helped you more than your wildest dreams. The magic of digital marketing. How did, how did you, how did you pull that off? No, I mean, there was a little bit of luck involved for sure as well, you know,

But we just made sure that when somebody is searching for Bosnia and Herzegovina. They find us before they come here. Like that was always our idea. We want to reach the people and talk to them before they come here, because

If they come here on their own, and then maybe they research a free walking tour and Saturday, well, not that free walking tours are bad, but you know, and then they go to most that, and that’s basically everything that they can research on their own.

So we said, we need to set up our digital presence in a way that people find us when they start researching. about their trip to Bosnia Herzegovina and then we talk to them and tell them what there is to see and to do before they arrive and that is how the journalist

Found us because she was researching like they had decided oh we’re gonna do a show in Bosnia Herzegovina and then she started researching And she found us and she was like, yeah, I can’t find a lot of information online. Let me contact them and see if they can help us.

And then, um, the, the TV, like the TV channel, they said, Oh, Bosnia and Herzegovina is still like a dangerous travel destination. So we cannot send our two poor reporters to go there and figure out everything on their own, who knows what might happen.

Actually, we need a travel agency to organize everything for us. And that’s what we did. Yeah. And as well, that we don’t have a National Tourism Board, we, we thought it’s, it’s, it’s really a pity and it’s a problem, but we saw it as well as a, as a opportunity.

So we started, uh, uh, Generating content and, uh, knowledge based, uh, blogs about Bosnia and Herzegovina, uh, uh, and about everything it’s still in process, but everything that might occur as a question we are putting out there so that, uh,

People will come to us and contact us as, as the experts, which we hope that we are, uh, in, in, in the meanwhile. So like the, the lack of, of, so, so this, uh, lack of infrastructure that we have, we saw as an opportunity, actually.

When those journalists arrived, Uh, from Germany, uh, and most journalists, especially when it’s to do with radio or television, they have an editorial aim already in their mind what, you know, they’ve actually written a shot list before they’ve got there, uh, with their preconceptions. Um, how much did they have to change?

How much was the original idea changed on the hoof while you were taking them around and showing them these wonderful things? What we really loved about this particular show, I would say, is that, um, their only prequisite was to meet people in every place that we visit.

They said, so we cannot just shoot, you know, nice pictures of Sarajevo or nice pictures of Mostar. We need to meet a person and do an activity with them so that the place becomes memorable. Which we liked. Which we liked.

And we set up the activities for them, like with a diver in Mostar, and with a, um, with a ranger in Sutjetska National Park, and they did some dancing, um, with a traditional dance group here in Sarajevo. And that was really nice. Because they were really open to just see what happens.

So they, they didn’t have a big agenda. They had places they wanted to visit. Neom, for example. They said, okay, Bosnia Herzegovina has a coastline. We have to go there. And we told them, well, but it’s not very pretty. You know, Neum is not the prettiest city that we have.

And they were like, oh, it doesn’t matter, but we have to see it. And that was actually the only requirements that they had. And I think that’s why the. The show turned out so nice and it really did focus on the country and

The people only and not on any like politics and separation that there might be if you dig a little bit deeper. And so it just became this wholesome travel piece. I have to just to add on, uh, Kathi, you know, like, uh, it’s always, and as well,

Mostly concern of people from Bosnia and Herzegovina and some others as well. That come here, will this, um, political problems that we have come out on the surface and like being seen and you know, like, uh, people really forget

That, uh, one of the main, uh, or like most popular, uh, places to visit in the world is South Africa, Thailand. And let’s just keep with this too. And I like. Countries with really problematic, uh, political scene there and backgrounds, they’re like even worse than like actually in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

And nobody’s talking about that. And nobody goes like to South Africa and Cape town. Let’s say to like in, in, in, in Bangkok and like the political situation there is really bad. Like, no, they’d like. Go there and enjoy their great food, the great people, the great nature.

And we have to keep it like that. Uh, every country has their problem. Germany has their problem, you know, like, and let’s, let’s keep about this natural beauty, the, the, the really great hosts as people, the great food, the great

Architecture that we have here, the great history that we have here, let’s, let’s keep focused on that and like, not like. Be distracted that we have some political problems in which every, every country has the greatest country in the world. The U S has a really a lot of problems.

So let’s, let’s, you know, like, let’s not focus on that. And that was like, as well, this, this show that we really liked, it was all about, uh, great stories that we have to show behind the scenes. We talked about politics a lot, you know, but for the journalist,

As well as for us, This was an interesting conversation to have, but it was not relevant for the show. And they kept it that way. Which is, which is really great. Last year, you were smiling like you are today and, um, really excited about the year that you had planned ahead.

Um, and it seems to me that your first year exceeded your expectations. Um, am I right or am I wrong in that assumption? You’re definitely right. Okay. Here comes part two then without giving too much away. What are the, what are the, I won’t say that the detailed

Plans, but how do you see Ċejf developing for the next 12 months? So we are doing something super exciting and super scary this year, two super exciting and super scary thing. First of all, we are hiring two new people, which is. It’s beyond imaginable cool.

And we are hosting two group trips this year. One in Krajina, Banja Luka, yeah, it’s a Bihać. I know Jajce is not technically right now, but it’s on the way and one in Sarajevo, Mostar and Sutjetska National Park. So we are really excited for that because we saw, okay, there are

Still a lot of misconceptions. People are a little bit scared to travel through Bosnia Herzegovina on their own. And there are also solo travelers that we can’t really cater to at the moment. So yeah, those group trips are another exciting thing that’s happening this year. Hopefully happening because they need to get booked.

Of course. So one is happening. Definitely. The second one, the, the, the one by the local is like almost, almost happening. Yeah. Uh, we having this two, two and two new, uh, workers working with us, like, uh, to help us, uh, even to grow more on a more sustainable way.

Last year we were like overworked, uh, which is a nice. thing to complain about. Uh, but now it’s, it’s, it’s time to, uh, grow on a, in a healthy way. So, uh, to show even more of the country, what he would like to do.

And one of the things in that is going in that direction is actually, For example, this, uh, Banja uh, this Krajina tour is to show a little bit more of, uh, the unseen Bosnia and Herzegovina so like everybody that comes here, uh, sees Sarajevo Mostar, which I think they have to see.

It’s, it’s for a reason they must to visit, but as well, um, there is so much more to see that, uh, more to develop like in, in whatever direction you are going there is. amazing, at least nature to see so many waterfalls, so much untouched nature, so much, uh, sports to be done.

Um, so, so we would like to develop even our, uh, online presence even more to take over the national board and like to show this hidden beauties that like a lot of people, even from, from the local people don’t know, you know, uh, to develop that kind of tourism.

Let’s go to Vares outside of Sarajevo. Let’s go, you, okay, there is, you know, like there are wine farms around Banja Luka that a lot of people don’t know. Um, local people, and especially then don’t know, like if they are from, from Germany or from the UK and so on.

So this, this is our goal to, to grow in a sustainable way and, uh, to show a little bit outside of, uh, the already known parts, like Kathi said, we have people already coming back. Uh, there is a lot of to offer for that.

We need, uh, touristic infrastructure that first, uh, local people need to to build up, uh, or like the regional people, people coming from Serbia and Montenegro and, uh, and Croatia. And then as well with that will come, uh, other people that will stay here, uh,

For 10 days, for two weeks and explore the country with their bike, with their, uh, with a canoe and, uh, eat, eat some great local food and so on and so on. So we have already, I think on average between seven and 10 days that our guests are staying.

The national average is like two point something. Um, so we are already beyond the national average. Still, it’s the triangle, you know, Sarajevo, Jajce, Mostar or Sarajevo, Mostar, Trebinje and back. Uh, with some stops, you know, like either Sutjeska or sometimes to

Banja Luka or sometimes to Bihać, but that’s a more of an incident. So we would like that to be developed. more of some hidden gems as well with the time coming. Finally, uh, and yeah, I think this is going to be a, maybe a challenging one, but I’ve identified it for some time.

You articulate it far better than me, but one of the downsides to tourism in Bosnia Herzegovina is this lack of a national tourist board. Um, an organization that joins up the varying parts of the jigsaw that is in, Every part of life in Bosnia, heads of governor.

It’s a jigsaw and it needs somebody to bring it all together. And that hasn’t happened, uh, in the last decade. And speaking to the few people that I’m in contact with, I do not see it happening in the very near future or the midterm, um, future.

And you’ve expressed about how frustrating it is. Um, is it possible that you’ll have to take matters in your own hand and to create a quasi. National Tourist Board working with other areas. And, and do something for the country that the country’s official departments can’t do for themselves. But it’s an opportunity.

Yes, yes. I think, I think we cannot be it because that would be too work intense. But now after two years doing this job, we have made great connections into every part of the country. You know, there are amazing people. Young tour guides. They’re amazing, uh, travel agencies and tour operators out there.

So now we are actually, we, we made our own jigsaw. We are now connected with every part of the country and we have local people that can help us there, which is amazing for the travelers, because now we can just send them.

Um, two yards and we can just send them to Sutjetska National Park and we know our partners will take care of them there perfectly and know the place much better than we could ever know it. And, well, and we will just continue educating people on our social platforms

And on our website and take the take over the that that part of the job of the tourism board and tell them what there is to see and what there is to do and that it’s safe and just show them the variety of activities and places, you know, and

I’m not sure it doesn’t hold us back. It holds the country and as well, the destination back. It doesn’t make sense to, to go to any tours, like a fair or like a conference and to promote, yeah, Jahorina not to promote Bjelašnica to promote Sarajevo and not to promote.

Sutjetska Because this is all like a micro location. Take it from whichever side you want. It’s like from the federal or from the. Republika Srpska It’s just like it’s, it’s not in the favor of the, of the smaller community because it doesn’t make sense to make it, uh, separated.

But for in the end, like we team up with the other agency and then create our own tours. Uh, we do, uh, we need to collaborate, which is beautiful, which is, uh, you see that. That is very possible that we work really great together.

It’s just like you’re not in the favor actually to both of the entities to, to go on a conference and do it separately, which is now at least happening. A big shout out to USAID that is like, Getting it together.

For example, now on ITB, I think they’re all together on the one umbrella, but it should be like in, in the future. So this is in the end opportunity for us, uh, to be more visible. We all, yeah. Like Numa said, we all just grow slower, but there are a lot of young

And ambitious and passionate people out there working in tourism and happy to work together and collaborate. So we just have to do it ourselves. Finally, then before I let you go, um, you’re both marketing professionals. So this is an absolute easy thing. Where the people, where would you rather, I’ll start that again.

Where would you like people that are interesting, interested in visit in Bosnia Herzegovina and would like, uh, to be shown around by you out of all the platforms that you’ve got, all the places that you are, What is your preferred platform for people to find out about you and to engage with you?

For me personally, I would say the website. Well, like, yeah, it’s a website and then an additional with Instagram, since you have, you know, like, uh, different parts and highlights where you could find out. So our goal one day is to actually make it a little bit more on YouTube

So that we can explain more, you know, like website is as big as it can be. You don’t, you can’t overfill it. It will be too much of information. With Instagram, it’s the same. You, you can like have this like one minute real maximal, just like to grab

The intention, uh, attention of the, of the viewer and, uh, to get like some basic information, some inspiration. But you know, like on YouTube it would be, okay, this is a national dish, this is how you order, this is what you could see.

This is a little bit, it could be a little bit more explanation, but for now I think, uh, the website and Instagram is the best thing to find out a little bit more, uh, about the country, about what we are offering as well on Kathi’s

Instagram, which is she’s great doing like world class thing, I would say. And, um, yeah, so like if you, if you, if you go down the rabbit hole, you will find out quite a lot about the country, about us, about everything that you need to, to, to know.

Guys, thank you very much indeed. I can’t wait, uh, till, um, either I get down to you or you get up to us. We always say it’s going to happen, but there’s a myriad of things that comes in the way. But next time you come here, we’re going to sit down.

We’re going to do like have some rack here. We’re going to do, we’re going to do. Like a, a master class in Ćejf. And Tamara’s father has already said to me the other day, when are they coming up? Cause I’m going to do Kotlić for them.

So he’s going to cook it out in the garden. So that would be nice. Thanks for the time today, all the very, very best. And it would be cool. Uh, maybe in six months time, although you’re going to be up to your armpits in work.

Just to catch you for 10 minutes to find out how things are going. Thanks a lot for being on the podcast in this episode. Thank you, David. Say hello to Tamara. Yes, say hi to Tamara and we’ll see you soon.