On this weeks pod we breakdown Moyen’s recent run to the finals in set 3’s largest tournament (170+ players). We’re also joined by Specimen (@itsSpecimen) to talk all things Lorcana; Is the first player advantage too much? What are the top decks in week 3? How will meta adjust after the recent performances of Amber/Steel and Sapphire/Steel?
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Amethyst/Emerald Tempo Into the Inklands:
4 The Queen’s Castle – Mirror Chamber
4 Kit Cloudkicker – Tough Guy
4 Maleficent – Sorceress
4 Friends on the Other Side
4 Mother Knows Best
4 Chernabog’s Followers – Creatures of Evil
4 Madam Mim – Snake
4 Tinker Bell – Most Helpful
4 Merlin – Goat
4 Cursed Merfolk – Ursula’s Handiwork
3 Merlin – Crab
4 Ursula – Deceiver of All
4 Ursula – Deceiver
4 Merlin – Rabbit
4 Madam Mim – Fox
1 The Sorcerer’s Spellbook
Steel/Amethyst Jafar Into the Inklands:
4 Razoul – Palace Guard
4 Jafar – Striking Illusionist
4 Mr. Smee – Bumbling Mate
4 And Then Along Came Zeus
2 Yzma – Scary Beyond All Reason
4 Friends on the Other Side
4 Captain Hook – Forceful Duelist
4 A Whole New World
4 Robin Hood – Beloved Outlaw
3 Grab Your Sword
4 Blue Fairy – Rewarding Good Deeds
3 Tinker Bell – Giant Fairy
4 Jafar – Dreadnought
4 Robin Hood – Champion of Sherwood
4 Jafar – Royal Vizier
4 Beast – Tragic Hero
Amber/Steel Aggro Into the Inklands:
4 Rapunzel – Gifted with Healing
4 Mr. Smee – Bumbling Mate
4 Lilo – Making a Wish
4 Kida – Protector of Atlantis
4 Kida – Atlantean
4 The Bare Necessities
4 Piglet – Pooh Pirate Captain
4 The Queen – Commanding Presence
4 Cinderella – Ballroom Sensation
4 Strength of a Raging Fire
4 The Queen – Regal Monarch
4 Hercules – True Hero
4 Tiana – Celebrating Princess
4 The Prince – Never Gives Up
4 Let the Storm Rage On
Ruby/Amber Midrange Into the Inklands:
4 Rapunzel – Gifted with Healing
4 Maui – Hero to All
4 Pongo – Ol’ Rascal
4 Stitch – Carefree Surfer
4 Simba – Protective Cub
2 Pongo – Determined Father
4 Pluto – Friendly Pooch
4 Pluto – Determined Defender
4 Maleficent – Monstrous Dragon
2 Perdita – Devoted Mother
2 Stitch – Little Rocket
2 Chernabog – Evildoer
2 Madame Medusa – The Boss
4 Mufasa – Betrayed Leader
4 Minnie Mouse – Stylish Surfer
4 Mother Gothel – Withered and Wicked
4 Doc – Leader of the Seven Dwarfs
2 Lady Tremaine – Imperious Queen
100+ Player Set 3 Tournament Lists: https://mushureport.com/battle-bear-into-the-inklands-event-report/
The Pack Top 16 Lists (Tournament Moyen got 2nd in):
Frank Zheng – https://playlorcanatcg.com/decks/65e41359eff73f22ec52957cÂ
Jan Moy – https://playlorcanatcg.com/decks/65e414ab8e011cb9e078ff1bÂ
Michael Ferrante – https://playlorcanatcg.com/decks/65e415bb5b9c1590155fc775Â
Brennan DeCandio – https://playlorcanatcg.com/decks/65e417d8bd551c27b00ab501Â
Aaron Rubin – https://playlorcanatcg.com/decks/65e418cb5b9c1590155fc777Â
JechtShot – https://playlorcanatcg.com/decks/65e419a28e011cb9e078ff1dÂ
Diego Saz – https://playlorcanatcg.com/decks/65e41a92eff73f22ec52957eÂ
Jebas – https://playlorcanatcg.com/decks/65e41b915b9c1590155fc779Â
Alessandro Mangiucca – https://playlorcanatcg.com/decks/65e41dd6eff73f22ec529580Â
eMOEtional – https://playlorcanatcg.com/decks/65e41ef3eff73f22ec529582Â
Mark Brindley – https://playlorcanatcg.com/decks/65e41f965b9c1590155fc77bÂ
Tristan Lackey – https://playlorcanatcg.com/decks/65e420a18e011cb9e078ff21Â
Gaetan Callens – https://playlorcanatcg.com/decks/65e4214ebd551c27b00ab531Â
Kraig Byrd – https://playlorcanatcg.com/decks/65e42344bd551c27b00ab533Â
Carlos Gangkofner – https://playlorcanatcg.com/decks/65e423f58e011cb9e078ff36Â
B̩la Balogh Рhttps://playlorcanatcg.com/decks/65e424998e011cb9e078ff42
Hello everybody and welcome back to Pod canana episode 42 this week we are joined by it’s specimen specimen we had you on the podcast a few months ago I believe and then I think you took a little bit of a Hiatus after that but it seems like you’re back in full force
Been reinvigorated by set three how’s it it going for you I am so hooked it’s so good like I think now the game is in a point where with set three there’s enough cards in the game where it takes quite long time to optimize deck lists
Deck building is the thing I love doing most it’s kind of what I was known for in gwent and I’ve been looking for a c game really where the deck building experience is as deep and as enjoyable as Gwen’s was and this one honestly feels even better I think it’s like the
Best deck building experience of a card game I’ve ever played which is a huge compliment and I am really really really enjoying set 3 I think it’s fantastically incredibly balanced and there’s so much fun stuff to try out yeah for sure I think that’s the
Strongest aspect of lurana is for me I I mean at least when the game first came out I was a bit hesitant on the design of the game it looked very simplistic um you know for many reasons but the development like the actual balancing of
The cards is so well done we’ve seen it through set one set two and set three these metag games just seem to constantly be in flux I mean we talked about a couple weeks AG we talked about the week Zero metag game very much done to dominated by Jafar the week one metag
Game and now the week 2 metag game is even different from that I mean M took Blue Steel to a second place at a 170 something player tournament A600 player uh $1600 prize pool took blue steel to second place and it’s just incredible and I feel like honestly up the back of
That tournament as well Amber Steel this is the the deck list that won that tournament is also a fantastic color combination the mid-range Amber Steel list is awesome and I mean Mo and I have been totally enjoying that list uh Mo I want to toss it back over to you real
Quick just to give us a background on the tournament you played this past weekend what list you played and just break it down for us so I played Zha steel the the day before the tournament I watched uh zepha and Sky play the entire day all the
Different matchups of blue steel and I rewatched that and I was very impressed with with the deck’s performance and potential so then I also spent the rest of my time before the tournament just testing that deck also tested a few matchups with spy and the the deck kind
Of blew me away I made a few changes not not all that many and I think it’s probably right now I think it’s the best deck in the format okay okay big Asser yeah big assert I mean you kind of showed it in the tournament right you had a pretty
Incredible run um only losing out in the finals what what is the what’s sort of the current archetype that the blue steel list fulfills like what is it trying to do it’s it’s honestly has the same game plan as in set two it just does it better so it slows their opponent down
By playing character first two turns then then Rams accelerates and stabilizes off of a five or six drop on on turn four those are very sticky and capable of singing songs and then you can either if you had the quill opening you might be wanting to to reel soon
After and just play the rest of the game with the same mon of cards as your opponent but just with a whole a lot more resources or especially in the Mickey Mouse opening you’re very fine just out resourcing your opponent without having to yeah I have a question actually on
This deck if you don’t mind just something that came to mind at the moment on Pixel born it’s showing you in the pregame what decks your opponents are playing and obviously with this deck your whole new world getting discarded by an Ursa or Bare Necessities is going to be pretty heartbreaking and your
Mulligan is going to be changing a lot do you think this deck is going to become significantly better or worse if you you don’t know what deck you’re play playing against for your opponent I I did in the tournament I didn’t know what I was playing against right okay that’s
A good point for for most of the ones and I I actually even if I knew it was I think there’s very little matchups where I would even consider keeping real and even in those matchups I would need to have a lot of other stuff already so I
Think I’m just throwing away real almost all the time even if I know the matchup so not knowing it just makes me Mulligan it away all the time and that’s doesn’t hurt the deck too much I would say an interesting point regarding that is is is green and Ursula I think Emerald just
Gets so much better if if their opponent doesn’t know they need to be mulliganing their songs away like um because you really don’t want to have a song in your hand first two first four turns if you’re playing against Emerald but if you don’t know you’re playing Emeral I
Think Emeral is probably the color that gains the biggest Edge from the opponents not knowing that you are playing Emer what new cards did the blue steel list get in set three that is really unlocked the deck or at least unlocked it as it’s progressed to week two
Because it was just I think I feel like it was a deck that people sort of forgot about and it was a it was it was in contention for best deck of set two and then week zero week one of set three people sort of forgot about it what new
Cards have been introduced to the deck list that have sort of unlocked it in this metag game I think Baseline it’s just it’s just SME SME is the just making the deck better every game you played in comparison to Prince Eric you you had to play Prince Eric before to slow your
Opponent down now you can be playing smei instead and that’s that’s a huge difference it quest for two has crazy Synergy with uh cxw it can two for one without the issue that you just value trade and then it gets value traded back because that still has three attack um
So SME is the huge upgrade and then the other two new cards would be um MC dark mana and wise of the Titans which does which does at least help the deck play around um play around be prepared which it wasn’t really able to before before
It was just okay I have to pressure just so much that they have to be prepared but that it’s not really good for them but now you can actually once you ahead lock them out of the game by adding some MC maners on top of that and and also
You have some counter play to location so that helps the deck a little bit but I think the by far the biggest upgrade to the deck is just Mr me mhm quick reminder for anybody listening uh for any deck list we talk about or any materials we reference all be in the
Description below so check out there if you want to follow along um I want to POS a question to all three of you and you can choose what order you want to answer and I just want you to tell me what whether you s tier tier zero or
Tier one tell me what the top deck ink combinations are right now cuz I believe that it’s very much influx but for you right now you don’t have to be correct for all of set three but if I asked you to name the tier one decks in this
Format what would you say we can start with you spy I still think Emerald steel is my front runner as a combo uh as everything settles down U way and I like in our testing like I played Emerald steel against his um sappire steel deck and it
Seemed seem kind of favored for my Emerald steel deck believe it or not even into cogsworth he’s disagreeing but uh when I when I In fairness the version of the deck I was playing was also playing like um helar and stuff which I think the deck is probably not going to
Go down that route but I’m just a pretty big believer in Emerald steel I think it’s just got a little bit of everything you’ve got the handers card of Ursula Ursula deceiver of all is also the the three cost legendary really good In fairness with people playing Pinocchio
In amethyst that has definitely made the Ura less impressive but Ursula being able to sing let the storm rage on is just incredible and um I think steel and emerald when you combine them they just kind of have everything you need also morph into tinabell morph into Robin
Hood into Beast deck’s very consistent you can play A Whole New World you can discard a whole new world with strike a good match if you don’t need it uh it was my early impression as best deck and I think once everything settles down I
Think it’s going to prove to be the best again I think there’s lots of really good decks though the game is very balanced yeah I I try to not not make this too long but I think sappire steel is the best deck right now I think it it’s close against um against Green
Steel but it’s I think it should be slightly favored still even if they’re playing Bucky versions against non Bucky versions is really good I think the deck that won the 100 player tournament in Germany the first big local tournament that happened was a green purple mhm and
I think that deck massively took it down I don’t I don’t I’m not even sure it’s like tier two anymore because everyone learned how to play against it then people tched for example the Ruby amethyst Tech started tching pinocchios which hurt that deck a lot and Saphire
Steel has an insane match up against it so I don’t I don’t think like it is a good deck Baseline but I don’t think it has a place in this matter anymore so I think sappire Steel’s best deck and then right behind that but not not too far
Behind I would say it’s green steel and Ruby amethyst maybe those are like the three tier one decks and then the two next best decks after that I would say are purple Ste Jafar and amb yeah Ka I’d probably have to agree with what Mo said honestly I mean it it
It it doesn’t get more accurate than that honestly I I think I think makes perfect sense for me from the testing I’ve done in the decks I’ve faced I do think that Ruby amethyst is still super super strong um been really impressed with the uh location addition to the
Deck I think it helps out a ton I mean we’ve already talked about on this podcast how and saying we all agree Jim Hawkins is like that card is just absolutely nuts but um it’s actually really it’s really refreshing in in my opinion to see some new cards being
Introduced to the Ruby amus deck uh even into this week right right cuz we saw the version of it last week and now we have I believe me’s Fish Hook is featured in a few of these decks uh to help combat some matchups and stuff like that so
Um yeah I think I think Ruby amethyst will remain to be a strong contender in set three but I don’t think it’s going to be as dominant as it was in set two or obviously how good it was in set one as well but I still think it’ll be up
There like it it proves to do powerful things consistently but I think like Mo said people are experimenting with different things and there’s definitely ways to to take it down so yeah I know actually I have I have a quick question for spey since I know you’ve been
Playing a lot spey what’s your opinion on aggro right now cuz somebody asked me this on Twitter and I just I just answered them I I I could be wrong because like I was known for in setu playing a lot of Agro towards the end I
Just think this meta is it has way too much Steel in it steel is just way too good this set and I don’t think I would play Agro just for that reason alone there’s definitely some aggro Decks that could get there even against some steel decks they might have some fuel but I
Think there’s way more Steel in this set than what there was in last set yeah aggro is pretty interesting there’s so many different ways you can go about playing it what I love about this set again is like because there’s more cards now like Rockstar stitch for example you
Can play pretty good Rockstar Stitch decks in a couple like with steel where you get lots of bodyguards but you can also play it with Emerald where you get access to Ursula which can help your steel match up a bit I do agree though I think like Agro is definitely suffering
Still because of Steel dominance all over the place but um there’s some pretty y decks I mean this deck I was playing on stream today which moram was seeing where you play um probably Emerald you can also play it with steel but with pride lands you can get
Rockstar Stitch down on turn three now with Pluto and then you can just go super wide with pride lands reducing the cost of everything you just play like a whole deck of One Drops like that deck honestly seems kind of legit to me uh it’s a bit of a meme for sure because
You have to draw like a lot of combo pieces but I think that aggro is in a pretty okay spot I think any meta where Agro is uh do dominating is pretty bad um so I think it’s it’s in a pretty good spot even this like amethyst Emerald
Deck which Moran was mentioning before like pretty it’s not like a traditional aggro deck but it’s certainly like a very Tempo orientated deck and that had a pretty good performance at the tournament I do agree it’s not top tier but what I like about aggro is there’s
Loads of different ways you can go about building it and I think the decks are less linear in a sense compared to aggro decks we saw before which was all about kind of like Prince Arthur just slam and try and get to 20 like ridiculously quickly there’s like some potential now
To have like decks which start off quite quickly and then just try and cross the line a bit later so I think Rockstar Stitch being able to come down on turn three is uh pretty interesting and I I think that the best aggro deck is still maybe waiting to be discovered but yeah
Steel is always a hard time for for aggro but with with Ursula it maybe becomes a bit better so I think that’s fair I think I I really agree what you said there in terms of it feels like there’s so many different ways to build aggro
Compared to what there was in set one and set two like I mean set one everyone started off with the whole lemon lime just Lilo Simba go go go quest with dudes but uh there’s been a lot of evolution since and I I do think maybe
The like the better Arro deck will be something that has a card like Rockstar Stitch that has a bit of an engine that I can utilize I mean I don’t think this this particular deck I’m going to say now is pop TI by any means but I did see
Like the example of some kind of chernabog decks where you just play loads of high questers at the end if you get your Trin bog play that card out and then you can start doing some kind of like cycling you can try play like multiple Trin bogs and stuff like that but
Ultimately um yeah I think aggro having a type of engine like you mentioned there would really really help it out compared to when you’re just kind of dumping cards and and and trying to race really fast so yeah it’s interesting for sure I think that Agra
Is in the worst state it’s ever been in but at the same time I think that the general archetypical representation of deck Lana like the lines are becoming quite blurred like the pillars of aggro control mid-range are just not super crystallized at this point I think most decks are trending towards mid-range um
And Tempo decks like I haven’t really encountered or seen a deck that I would consider to be very viable that actually puts characters on board and just quests which maybe it wasn’t the best strategy in the past but I mean that was definitely there was definitely aggressive Decks that would just play
Characters they didn’t care what their opponent was doing and they just turned them sideways I think those decks are viable in this metag game at all and I haven’t seen anyone any any that I could take seriously because all of the all the best decks in the metag game all the
Tier one decks are heavy removal based because you absolutely need to compete for board because if you don’t compete for board you’re not just losing to aggro you’re losing to all the other lists that play locations because you get behind locations get dropped and like Mo said you get locked out of the
Game so yeah I think because of that our maybe our traditional sense of aggro or our traditional concept of aggro is also just evolving in Lana maybe this sort of set one set two aggro just play out my hand turn him sideways my opponent removes them as we progress and maybe I
Get there maybe I don’t maybe that maybe we’re evolving out of that stage in regards to aggro the stabilization of decks when they face Aro if they run locations as well is huge because like you said Aro usually doesn’t care about interacting with your opponent’s cards
So if they don’t even want to interact with characters then they’re certainly not going to be interacting with locations so once I mean again we mentioned this last week but really does feel like once you get ahead and you start playing locations it’s a a huge
Benefit to you right like it’s uh super super good mhm for question for both spy and mo is there any other list out of these like uh the top 16 from the Thea tournament last weekend that you want to hit on in particular I have all of them
Listed here I have a few of them pulled up um the one that I thought was particularly interesting was probably zha’s list like zepha did play Jafar combo and did Super well with it uh had a great Interactive game versus m as well that was a fantastic one I
Recommend watching it back um but is there any other list that really stood out to you guys there’s there’s somehow a sapphire amethyst deck which is mind-blowing and I’ve just come off the back of a stream where I was playing Sapphire amethyst with uh some slightly memy combos which kind
Of seem good so um obviously like a big problem Sapphire has right is it’s very slow early game so if you’re opening up with with sapphire um you often need like the B prepare the B prepared clear or the the grab your sword clear but Elsa kind of with bounce package can
Kind of give you some way of staying in the late game so I think that’s one to keep an eye on for sure it’s like one deck making the top 16 is pretty exciting it’s not a combo I thought would be viable but that was like one
Really out of left field you possibly know the name of that player because I’m just looking for the list here it’s funny cuz spey and I actually prior to talking uh talking about getting on this pod and prior to the tournament occurring we’re like man Sapphire looks
Like it’s in a really weak State and then Bo just comes on he’s like he’s like Sapphire still is the best deck in the metag game changed yeah it’s it’s it’s a really good sign for the game I mean it’s it’s incredible that we’re all the way into set three um so many
Players are playing the game so many good players we have a very accessible way to play the game like it’s a digital game at this point we maybe don’t have access to all of the data but to have a meta game that is this Dynamic and sort
Of uh influx is just incredible and it’s it’s honestly that’s been the story of lurana since the game released and I think that’s that probably hits on why you like it so much bie because the deck building just feels like it feels like there’s always a chance to do something
New in the metag game because the cards are so balanced yeah the deck the sapphire deck is Jack shot so they finished pretty high up in uh on day one as well cuz this is like in order so they I think like a s and one or maybe six and two I
Think s and one performance on day one um and Sapphire is pretty interesting because it didn’t really get that much new stuff with this list right like the grandar tala stuff I think Mo you’ll have um an opinion on it like PHS very lack cluster the legendary Grandma tala
Overall uh the other big problem is if you go like Grandma tar package a lot of the time previously with the two drop grat tala you’d Play One Jump Ahead as well and now One Jump Ahead is just getting sniped by um Ursula and be necessi so it seems like Mickey Mouse
Plus fishbone quill is probably the better way to go but I was just experimenting um today with the new lucky dime card with MAA dispel and honestly I started off like last week I played that deck I was like 0 and 10 and today I I started to believe a tiny bit
That it could be good so I’m pretty excited to see if uh yeah if anything could happen with this like with the amethyst bounce package you kind of get some early control with like fi being a nice addition in there as well like Madam MIM just has big stats and and of
Course the fox can rush you can deal with locations quite easily and then if you’ve got some kind of late game which Bell and Elsa give you I think there’s some potential here um it’s very very important that you have an early game though if you’re playing Sapphire with
Amethyst because you don’t have those board clears so uh yeah definitely pairing like Sapphire with the bounce package you can’t really go too wrong will it be a top tier deck no not going to be S tier or anything like that but I think it is maybe going to find a home
In The Meta game it’s certainly the deck I’ve enjoyed the most actually this set so far based off my uh couple hours playing it just now let me ask both you and mo a question then do you think a deck needs AOE board removal in this format to be a tier one
Deck no no it doesn’t I mean may maybe if if you’re contesting the board well enough and consistently enough early game you don’t have to get into the position where you need to be wiping the board right that’s the other good Decks that are out there
What they’re doing right now and to me to me the SE amethyst also stood out because I really didn’t expect that to make Top Cut yeah um it it’s not as good as steel or wuby in swinging back the board once you’ve lost it but maybe it
Can just be a little better at not falling too far behind because it can play Rafiki one drops and then the bounce pack is also pretty good at contesting early game yeah um the way I I tried making that color combination work I think I deleted all my versions
Already um I think the way I would go about it though was would be um to leverage that early those early Tempo TOS with with CW though I don’t think the list was B at all so that was that was quite surprising to me um that being
Said I think gatal is like kind of slow and bad in most matchups but against Sapphire steel or as playing Sapphire steel I actually don’t like to play other sappire decks to play grandata because all the sapphire steel board wipes that I was playing because I wasn’t playing hard removal were just
Damage based and you don’t just deal a damage to to Gat that doesn’t happen yeah speaking of slow a lot of people are cutting Bell in most Sapphire lists how do you feel about Bell making into the sapphire amethyst list and where do you think Bell is in in terms of this
Metag game where does that card land I think B it’s unplayable yeah gets gets Cloud kicker gets Medusa I don’t want that it’s not necessary to for the ramp I don’t I don’t want to see that c in by yeah I’ve I’ve also never been a
Fan of bell however if this lucky dime version which I’m maybe just full copium on having just played it is good Bella is good in that deck right lucky dime like the seven cost item you tap it uh you pay two ink and you gain LW instantly like then you’re gaining five
LW when the bell hits the board so MH I think that’s like what you mentioned as well is like can you win in this meta game with a deck which is not got board clear and the answer in order to do that is you need to either be winning quickly
With like an aggro deck of some sort and then discarding their board clear with an Ursula or you need some kind of cheesy combo which is gaining you a whole bunch of LW in a very short period of time where you can kind of just get into the late game and that’s where
Maybe like the the lucky Diamond MAA stuff could come in with this combo but also similarly like Jafar is is doing that in some ways um the Jafar versions we’ve seen are like very mid-range but I also think that like an Allin Jafar deck where you’re not even playing board
Clear and you just Bank on pulling this combo off is probably not a terrible deck by any stretch so uh what I love about the game at the moment is they are starting to introduce these ways of winning in nonlinear Fashions and um that’s definitely something I’m interested in experimenting with more
Moving forwards yeah for sure there’s one other card um in the metag game that I want to ask you all about because it was sort of the Talk of the Town off the back of this tournament and that’s Cinderella the 55 resist two you play a song it can attack unready characters a
Lot of people are saying uh most of the list that made top 16 would be very soft to a cinder and I’ve seen that even on pixel in the days after this tournament finished people are now teching additional cards for Cinderella want answers to that card what are your
Thoughts on the steel 55 Cinderella in this metag game and do you think that playing something like a sapphire steel do do you need to start teching in things like Hades or Let It Go in order to have an answer to that yes Hades Hades is pretty pretty solid I
Think I know moan wasn’t playing it um but the fact that his cogsworth got wrecked by Cinderella was pretty heartbreaking to see so I think um basically Cinderella was on that tournament on Saturday all the decks were soft to it that the card was amazing but the meta shifts so quickly
Already every deck is like almost every deck is now playing a few answer for Cella making Cella worse but I think still think for Ember steel it’s a very viable game plan just go a few lanters and you play four shifts in the re and
You say this is my big threat this is how I end games I I play this uh get ahead on the board quest for three four few times and that’s very very dangerous because it can come down as early as turn four I think that’s the best most
Unfair thing Ember steel can do right now um also after that tournament I immediately you know people see the final they’re like oh this the psychopath doesn’t play Cinderella answers yeah no oh don’t don’t you wish you had a Cinderella answer now after I played like how many I played
Um was it nine how many Swiss rounds did I play eight I think it was eight eight eight eight Swiss rounds and then top 16 top eight top four was I played 11 rounds before facing my first Cinderella and this entire this entire time I’m happy that I’m not playing cards that I
Wouldn’t normally want in my deck just to answer Cinderella and then I fa Cinderella once and I I’m pretty sure I was favored to it lose the D even though I’m even though I’m was second seat because we we are just still dieing um and then I lose very closely to it and
Then people like oh she should have should have played Hades sort of play Let It Go and to to be fair now that ember steel is rising in popularity I think it is very reasonable to start including a few answers for that because not only it helps against uh the big
Cinderella but it also helps in the mo I think especially Hades is a pretty good card in the mirror once coxworth makes it so that both boards basically don’t die anymore and then you just need to race and then Hades helps a lot um getting a threat that also removes the
Threat so I think now now I would probably play a few answers but I’m 100 100% confident and happy that I wasn’t playing an answer in the tournament yeah I think it’s uh it’s a card gamer fallacy uh that you’ll see when people prepare for tournaments um where they
Look at expected metag games they want to be insulated against everything even when it represents a very very small uh portion of the game like that Cinderella just showing up in the finals I want to ask you guys a fundamentals question um in regards to Hades versus Leto Leto is
A they have the same effect but Hades is a seven cost unable body that quest for two and Leto is a five cost inkable song um which one is better and is one better in all situations just talk to me about the dichotomy between the two cards
Because I think a lot of people looking at the steel Sapphire list right now and they’re thinking about that kind of removal and they’re wondering should I put Hades in or should I put Let Go in um I actually don’t like let go much personally but obviously the big
Advantage of Let It Go is it’s inkable and there’s probably already a lot of unable cards that you’re wanting to play I do just feel though like personally uh I’m pretty a pretty big believer on being heavy on un incbles and like I feel like the trade down to
Playing Let It Go instead of Hades is so big right like with am with sapphire there’s not a huge difference between a five cost card and a seven cost card because of your ramp tools and playing like a a five cost card which is giving
You no um board control in any way or like any Tempo in a sense whereas Hades is like just very very powerful Let It Go obviously both of them are putting cards into the inqu and I feel like when you’re doing that with Let It Go it
Feels kind of bad but if you’re putting like a pretty big chunky card on the board that can Quest can challenge um I actually never play Let It Go I’m not a fan of the card personally but I think the only reason I ever would if I was
Like super high on un inbl already so much so that I couldn’t fit the in a toour yeah I I would agree Baseline Hades is just a better card Let It Go is the advantage of being singable and it comes down earlier but basically even if there’s sometimes an early Target that
You would like Let It Go for it’s still not the greatest answer in the world because if you have to do that you’re giving your opponent the ink early which you don’t want to be doing so Hades being that expensive doesn’t really matter as much because that type of card
You don’t want to be playing too early anyways um so so again um it’s just if I if I say I cannot I just cannot afford an X1 in K I could play Let It Go otherwise I also prefer Hades awesome couple other things in the headlines uh
One is we we had a Pixel born feature last week I don’t know if you saw there was an advertisement for the YouTube channel the podc YouTube channel on Pixel born so yeah last week’s video did really good if you’re new to the channel hit that subscribe on YouTube or leave
Us a review on pod platforms it’s the number one thing you can do helps us keep the light on and then second order of business we had a comment from pav himself he said pix aorn stats are in categories you need to scroll down a bit
In the Discord post to reach our GM only stats 53% win rate going first among all players 64% is above GMS grandm so GR in the grandmas bracket there you have a 64% chance of winning for going first so 14% at least differential off of uh off
Of going first I find that hilarious that that’s the exact number that I mentioned last week that the 53% is what the it’s what the Lana designers said that they were more close to whereas I I think one of the the guy who was interviewing was like oh it’s a lot
Higher and devs were like oh with our testing it’s actually kind of closer to 50 but yeah it’s clear that when it gets to higher skilled players the difference is uh is yeah it’s it’s it’s a lot higher and and it’s worse than set three
Talk to spey Mo talk to me about what has changed from set one and set two to set three that the first play Advantage has increased um so much Co okay so uh basically the the things that mitigated first play Advantage I would say are the boardwipe
TOs where you can come back from behind right so I would say that’s probably mostly be prepared um and be prepared as a card is is still being played a lot but it it’s got less permanent because UB is no longer the best deck but also uh because of the introduction of two
Cost Ursula that can just rip it out of your hand so I think that’s a big reason and then other than that I I just think PE um Dex got so much better at no longer letting you come back once they had because now they even have tools to
Play around board wipes in in locations so I think locations and the Ursula that take songs away are big reason why um The Edge for going first has gotten even bigger which is probably not a bad thing right in terms of it’s good that the I I think it’s good that cards like
These exist but it just means that they really need to look at why this is happening and that they need to probably implement the change to combat this right I think having cards like Ursa and locations isn’t like I think they’ be saying oh this is bad because it makes
The going first so it feels bad right obviously it feels much worse in this set when you know you you do the D Ro you go second it’s okay now it feels like it’s going to be really really hard to win because of these cards existing but I don’t think that’s necessarily a
Bad thing I think that they just need to look at this and now really realize that it’s more of an issue than what it was and combat it rather than you know just saying that these cards are the problem the problem isn’t the cards the problem
Is still what it has always been is that the D roll you know what I mean like they they need to improve it I think it’s partly the cards um to be honest I think it all could be fixed to Designed they don’t need an external system in
Order to compensate uh I think the one of the big issue the big reasons that the die roll has gotten so much more significant is due to the increase in efficiency in cards um but mostly in that one to four curve but uh yeah removal in Lana is bad pretty much all
Removal is bad yeah yeah even the steel removal is like it’s the only removal we have but it’s not the most efficient in comparing it to other games at all um also anecdotally in in my tournament one where I went second on on the weekend uh
Going first I won 14 out of 15 games and going second I won seven out of 16 and so I I in all of my games no matter who who the player is that was going first the player that was going first ended up winning around 74% of the time and and
That’s that’s very small sample and it’s maybe the problem’s not as bad as um these numbers are making it out to be but the the problem still exists also was kind of fun because last part I was like um I let myself speak out this challenge
For for game designers to to play me and see if whether they can win 47% of the time and then during the the entire tournament my chat was like when I was going SE was like oh you still have a 47% chance we’re going first it’s our
53% let’s go boys they were saying that pod can fans uh should be called 53 percenters yeah what are your thoughts Bessie yeah I mean I have to say say from my first week of playing Lana I was really loving the game but I was already concerned about the coin flip aspect of
It I mean just everything about it just screams that it’s a big Advantage for going first and right now there isn’t a single deck in the game which wants to go second right and that’s kind of like as you mentioned with control cards traditionally in some kind of control
Archetype you wouldn’t mind going second right because you’re playing more reactively currently there’s just no deck which would ever want to go second so I think we need to see some kind of introduction of a deck which wants to go second um of course there’s always going to be
Talk about what kind of tools you could introduce to add into the game to increase the players’s chances that’s going second uh I’m certain that ravensburg are going to want to keep everything very simple in terms of the game rules so you see like people mention maybe like uh Hearthstone coin
For example where it’s like an extra resource where you get like one extra Mana per turn um gwent also had a a similar problem with with coin flip for a long time although in Gwen it was the player going first that was disadvantaged and they were given a few
Extra points essentially um so I would doubt that they’re going to introduce anything like that because I think they want to keep the rules as simple as possible but then if they’re not willing to do that then they certainly need to start looking at some cards and some
Decks which would be rewarded for for going second right at the moment every time uh when you’re playing a tournament game you lose the first game you get to pick if you go first or second you don’t even need to ask the question everyone knows that you’re going to want to go
First so it would be nice to see some decks which are better going second for sure but I’m not even sure what those would look like like even if even a control deck I’m not sure that there would ever be with the current current way the game works that I would ever
Want to go second even I can’t think of any deck that would MH you know of course it’s not in the current game and I’m not sure that there really is such a thing so I think in the long term there needs to be some kind of extra resource
Or something along these lines but we’ll have to wait and see do you think that they’ve made uh that the designers knew and this is kind of a difficult question but you think coming into set three that they knew that the percentage would increase this much like this I think that’s an interesting
Question like because within testing and stuff like that there’s only so much that I think a play test team can do and then the real data is reflected through you know I I would say players like GMS right you know I mean that play so much that can get this real
Um you know all of this data combined so it’s interesting to me to think did they think by this stage in set three and maybe even like set four that the win percentage for going first is just going to increase over time because they’re introducing more cards that combat you
Know like Mo was saying coming back with songs with songs um or do you think it’s just something that they’re they’re going to just see and and like look at it as it goes and and monitor it and stuff like that it’s yes or no they
Obviously not I I’d say it’s close to obvious but still develop at this point but it seems like they just undershot the um like the equity of it right like they thought it was closer to 4753 which is relatively reasonable it’s a so when we talk about die roll in a card game
It’s I think it’s like universally looked at almost universally as like a bad thing like this first player Advantage but I think to some extent it’s okay cuz you want to have levers of variance in a game where the worst player could win and droll is a part of
That I think when the differential gets egregious it becomes not great and it’s it’s honestly it’s the worst kind of variance because it’s a type of variance that exists completely outside of the game right and it’s also Crystal Clear who’s getting [Â __Â ] like it’s Crystal Clear who’s losing on this variance
Lever right you lose the die roll there’s no like oh maybe this maybe it’s good for me maybe it’s good for it’s like or it’s close it’s not close at all they’re a full they’re a full resource ahead of you like I think that the value question you’re asking when you’re
Saying like is there a deck they’ll ever want to go second it’s a it would have to be a deck and a sort of a gameplay setup where the the extra card is better than the resource and I can’t see how that’s like would ever be possible with
The current card pull um and then also one of the tangent I think another big offender is actually a whole new world like shift the whole new world uh one player dumping their entire hand and getting massive card Advantage off shifting in a whole new world like that’s that’s a massive first first
Player Advantage but uh nice plus one card you have there might as well discard it yeah um yeah what like what do so let me just ask all of you do you want to see this first player second player um advantage and disadvantage would you like to see the Gap closed and
How do you think that they could do that do they need to implement this additional system or additional layer something like a coin something like maybe the second player starts on a bit higher lore or do you think it can be achieved through card design I think it needs I don’t I don’t
Think there’s card design that could really fix it honestly I think it needs something um it needs some kind of extra resource I mean Gwen battled with this issue for a very very long time and I have to say that the gwent fix for this I think was absolutely brilliant um which is
Essentially gwent the player going first because they were disadvantaged started with some Phantom points now this could be selected depending on your deck in in a kind of different department so you had some some cards which boosted a card Up by Five Points you had some cards
Which just turned into five kind of phantom points on the board so for Disney Lana you could have some kind of card which you kind of put in your deck and it’s like oh if you’re going second this location starts on the board for example um how that would actually work
In a physical aspect I think that’s going to be the problem right uh but some kind of like location card for example which starts on the board um and does something you know you can have different then abilities and then you can mix around that and it gives you
Kind of more deck building options wherever or not that’s actually going to happen I kind of doubt I think like a phantom like a point coin system from half Stone might be an easier thing to implement within a um a physical game I I just want to touch and kind of
Disagree with spy that for me personally I I don’t think that card design is going to solve it at at this moment in time and moving forward in a few sets because like that’s the ultimate thing that I’m trying to think of is like if
It does solve it is it going to be in the next three sets because if it’s not solved in set four and set five because they’ve designed a lot of these cards like you know when we’re playing this set that they’re designing like six sets ahead or whatever it’s like if if
They’re not really if they can’t monitor this and anticipate this which is a very difficult thing to do and balance just through card design I think we’re going to have to see some other system but I I’d like to be proved wrong like I’d like to see it balance itself out but I
Just don’t know how how we’re going to see that arguably they double down on it with locations as well that’s also what pry said right that we need something that’s not just game yeah yeah that’s that’s that’s what I mean um so for me I think the problem can easily be
Mitigated with just the the design of its cards but I think the problem will still persist for example um I think zepha is very particular about keeping his stats for the matchups in previous sets and I don’t have them up right now but he showed like his Ruby amethyst
Stats from previous sets and when going first when going second his win weight in like few 200 games I think or 100ish games um when going first or second was basically the same or it was not significantly higher than going first uh in I think in the mura match up or
Something so there there’s a few matchups where it that it’s a lot less of an issue and I think to me that says with um with different cards being uced into the game for for at least some matchups the pro problem can be very well mitigated but I think first player
Will still always have an advantage um which is fine I just like if if it’s 55% I think um um or 55% or lower for for first player I think that’s totally fine with me and I would love for there to be an outside of card game of of card
Design rule that mitigates it I think the cleanest way to do it would probably be second player starts with X amount of law um but as I agree with cow that I’m doubting that will ever happen because they will probably want to keep keep it
Simple yeah I I had someone ask me uh yesterday what the worst matchup for Amber Steel songs was and my answer I think was very factual the worst matchup is the mirror if you’re going second yep like I don’t think you get worst match up for that deck like they play
Cinderella on turn one threaten to sing let the storm rage on and then what do you do and then they like you met Brendon mentioned earlier they can sing A Whole New World and just get rid of your like one card Advantage as well yep and I was actually playing that match
Before I hopped on the Pod um like I just I understand that I don’t know I’m not that against like non- games and I they’re not great but I’m okay with like variance levers where the the better player might just flat out lose nothing they could do and
That’s going to be a minority of games I’m actually like more okay with that than I was like a couple years ago but still it just feels like garbage like you just lose it you just lose the die roll and then they play that like they
Have this curve and it I don’t know basically your game experience is getting everything removed losing all the all of your cards in hand when they get a whole new world they’re shifting before you like it’s just it sucks and I think a lot like honestly a lot of
Matchs felt like the mirror was really really important for going first or second because even a ruby amethyst like they get the first Jim Hawkins like if someone Jim Hawkins a location on you it’s like do you have Maui if you don’t it’s probably over if they had any
Temple on board before that it’s probably over um yeah I hope that they do something about it mostly because uh as a variance knob in the game I think that it is very unfun and I think it’s very very unfun I think it’s it’s just the worst kind of variance it’s like
When I draw let’s say there wouldn’t be any first play advantage and I draw just a tiny bit worse by my opponent and we both play perfectly technically I would still lose to variant but that would feel much better like it’s it’s it’s not that it’s losing to variant losing to
Variant is fine but just please don’t don’t let it be the D into the in the extremes that it’s right now yeah for sure all right I want to close the book on that topic and before we head into our listener question section I want to
Ask you spey what are your thoughts on Rise of the Titans post tournament this past weekend Oh mate yeah that is the question so I played Emerald steel um I uh I felt like I was super far ahead of the meta in my kind of first like three or four days playing on
Pixel born and then I took like five or six days off on holiday and kind of came back and was focusing on playing new decks for for videos and whatnot and then I was like yeah I’ll just stick kind of my Emerald steel deck that I had
Before I had Mo in here uh in on a call who was you know like looking at my deck failed to mention my lack of Rise of the Titans in my deck which uh I am putting putting him uh down as the reason I got knocked out on day one cuz oh my
Goodness I got farmed by locations I never wanted to see another location ever ever again every time someone played a location I basically should have has gone next because uh yeah I had Helga Sinclair who’s like when she Quest dealing three damage to a character I had tinabell Dam character isn’t it damag
Character Chief BOGO who’s dealing damage to characters think about grab your sword like everything I had was dealing damage to characters but not locations and I just got absolutely railed by these nine strength locations I would spend like four turns challenging into them and even though I
Had the complete board control like I had URS to get rid of be preps and stuff as well yeah it was very frustrating so Rise of the Titans of course there’s also uh and then Along Came Zeus which can be combined with it but yeah we’re definitely seeing a lot of locations I
Think in particular the queen’s castle the for costing amethyst um and mcduck’s Mana are very very powerful big uh big willpower questing for two but um we are seeing people te against it like Maui’s Fish Hook meaning that Maui can come in at nine strength to remove those in one
Swoop uh I do feel like the locations are going to get worse as people start teching towards them but I think it was Mo that I was talking to about it made a really good point where if someone plays let’s say mcduck’s Mana even if it gets
Answered instantly by Rise of the Titans it’s not like it’s a trade and in fact Brendon I think you were in twit chat when talking about yeah the value prop on it is actual it’s it’s hilarious thank God it’s inable but this is a so let’s say your opponent play is McDuck
Manor you have the tech card you put this card in your deck for the situation you cast your Tech card you know what you’re up one ink one ink if for for Sapphire steel specifically I was playing a few wi of the Titans I I would still be the loser
Of that trade every time because that those times they they they they also decide the timing on this they can make it so awkward for me to be spending three of my ink that turn like what if I have six or seven ink and I’m suddenly I
Have to spend three ink on R of the PS and I can’t play my my gust on Tinker Bell or beast and it’s like I’m I still lost this trade even if I’m running up I actually think that’s a really good thing though uh from from gwent we had a
Huge problem with cards similar to items called artifacts and there was a card called bomb he which is a very cheap Tech card which would remove one of these artifacts and put points on the board and it was just the most binary interaction that was completely like
Game defining for a long time so much so that everything got reworked at one point and I think it’s a much better spot that it is the locations are still getting that value like that that interaction way talked about I think is’s a healthy thing if like this Rise
Of the Titans was trading up to these locations significantly it would be a pretty unenjoyable matter I think that’s fair yeah I agree it’s interesting I do think I would like I think I personally would like a a higher trade up value on Rise of the titons because like I mean
To be fair the card does say location or item so technically it’s not that narrow um and it’s in the incable is I mean if it was an incable I I don’t think you could play it I I actually don’t honestly RSE of the Titans is by far not
The best Tech against items the best tech is Mari Rafiki mari’s Fish Hook St stuff that um doesn’t just kill the item but also let get a on top of that yeah the location but also let you get something on top of that or even mer the
Crap I think Ruby amethyst is probably the best deck at dealing with locations I think that’s why Ruby amethyst is like still looking really good I was pretty down on Ruby amethyst chances coming into the set but um and it’s got also a great location in it in its own right I
Think uh queen’s castle is probably my Contender for best card of the set right now like that card is insane Moran’s unsure yeah I think we’re Mr we’re Mr Believers over here for kind you make dark Mana card yeah it’s just not though is it it’s a maybe
It is man or boys man or boy I mean I think that the the metag game already like has warped around locations which makes them feel less impactful but it speaks to the power of locations like they are they’re incredible I do think that locations um yeah they do give a they do
Give a bit more first turn Equity I think than some other car design but they can all sort of be designed out a bit by a little bit more power creep and ways to deal with locations I mean I Fish Hook is actually a card that I
Think we kind of missed in our set review that is just such a good freaking card even without locations didn’t you guys reveal that one or am I wrong no we oh God no God no uh yeah our reveals were they were good limited cards maybe
Right we revealed a card that can heal um locations an item that can he locations and revealed the three cost action that gives plus two Challenger and exerts a cut all right yeah cuz I remember you were like not impressed by the cards you revealed and I was like H
Wait a second no I would say not impressed that yeah anyway let’s go into let’s go into our listener question section if you want to get your question read out next week’s pod you can shoot as a comment on YouTube first one here is from Prince they say question for Moy
Um we already answer this but do you regret not playing Let It Go or seven drop Hades in your Sapphire steel deck or your second place deck we answer that but then they say also what are your thoughts on five drop Robin Hood oh I’ve got a hot take
Overrated no I I I love the cut but um I think it’s could actually be be decent even in SE I’m not sure I would want to be playing it but um so the cards that you’re ramping into Guston Tinkerbell and coxworth are all incredible but sad Beast was actually kind of disappointing
In in my testing so far and in the tournament and not because the card’s bad and it’s not just it’s like it’s fine that that there’s removal for the card in in dies to Zeus and Medusa you could say okay but if I play this and they have to use
Their removal it’s fine the problem is both Zeus and Medusa can come with huge Tempo on top of that and losing that Tempo after ramping uh can lose you the game so most of the time you’d rather be ramping into into a different cut and thinking about that it it would be an
Upside for Robin Hood that it doesn’t die to Zeus it still dies to uh to Medusa and maybe the payoff isn’t as high for the card um sticking for a turn while being undamaged so I’m not sure I would want to be playing it but I think it’s a totally fair
Shout uh do you want to expand on your love myot take yeah so Robin Hood great card do not get me wrong but also important to remember it’s pretty I haven’t checked the price but I know it’s pretty pricey uh super cutable in pretty much every list it’s definitely
Not like a card you have to play I don’t think you could ever cut Beast for this card I think that is an awful take I’m surprised that it’s come out of your mouth way I’m not going to lie I mean I get it like the Zeus but like Beast has
So much upside whereas Robin Hood is great if you can shift onto it right if you’re shifting onto it Happy Days yeah um I just find the consistency outside of Emerald where you have morph of of shifting into Robin Hood to be maybe not quite worth it so when I was looking at
Building um Amber Steel songs I was like hm I think that Robin Hood could definitely stay in the deck but I also think it’s very cutable and just the reaction from my chat was like that is Blas for me cutting Robin Hood’s ridiculous and I’m like okay I do agree
It’s controversial and might not be correct cuz I do think Robin Hood’s good but I think people are overestimating how good it is you’ve also in steel already got Beast as Mo mentioned which is already a card which is uh being removed by Medusa I would never cut
Beast personally and I think having the option then of just inking beast and then not and not having Robin Hood in your deck for example that’s just another card that’s getting railed by Medusa it is a pretty good one so I like Hood in Emerald with the morph
Um yeah more consistency and I think it’s great elsewhere too but you know like playing a 2 two one drop when you could be playing Captain Hook and SME on turn two does feel not great so I I I think um it is important to not play too
In the safire Ste it’s important not to play too many targets for meder because if if you’re not playing too many targets then you’re capable of inking all the targets and just letting Medusa hit Jen [Â __Â ] and that’s important um but an ember Steeler would also say it’s
Bless for me to to cut cut Robin H it having having it doesn’t matter that it doesn’t happen all the time when the shift on three happens it’s can absolutely break the game and when you the game as a as a singer five and just a threat that can take out stuff while
Getting LW plus a lot of the times when it’s removed you are actually drawing a card St no I do I do agree it’s like it’s probably just about worth it but again I think it’s super when just the fact that it’s like people like you cannot cut this card I think you
Absolutely can there’s other options you’ve got like the Gaston singer five for example in at three and it’s more so the fact that okay that combo can happen you can get it down on turn three and it’s great when it does but I I haven’t
Done the maths on it but how often does that actually happen that you find like the one drop Robin Hood of course there’s also quite a lot of removal in The Meta where it’s like quite likely maybe not likely but quite possible that your one cost Robin Hood is just getting
Removed anyway so uh I do think it’s overrated I think it’s very replaceable but I also still think it’s a very very good card I think it’s very well balanced in other words MH awesome well also I just I just switched the mic I was on my headset mic
Apologies to to the list I was wondering what that was I was I thought that I thought I was going crazy there for a sec how did you even do that on demand that’s wild um all right next one is from binton they say for those who have
A diff difficult time undertime a difficult time understanding K when you play ke put a minus three strength token SL marker on all characters SLG glimmers and play remove them at the beginning of your next turn yeah we we talked a little bit we were kind of confused how
Keo worked and a lot of people chimed in on the solution to that so I wanted to follow up um it is in play yeah that’s the biggest thing there is it’s all characters in play when you play the card not characters that come in with
Rushan stuff like that kind of kills the card yeah with all the Rush characters at the moment I think a big part because of the locations this is pretty heartbreaking for K I mean she could still see some play She’s definitely an interesting tool for aggro decks but in
The current meta with lots of Rush car characters the fact that you’re not negating their strength I think uh is pretty heartbreaking for this card MH next one is from lateralis they say love the podcast really helps could you guys post links to the deck so post the decks
In the description I just want to point this out cuz I’m sure other people have thought this a lot of times when I try to post links to decks on dreamboard just like randomly they don’t work I think it’s like a cashing issue or something like that cuz sometimes when I
Open incognito it works um but yeah that’s why I post them all written out uh so hopefully that sometimes just need to like if you open it it doesn’t work if you just try opening it again and refreshing you can get it to work it’s a bit
Buggy say is yeah the one thing I will say is even if the way brenon doing it and just putting the lists in the description there is like an import method on dreamborn where if you have the lists in like text form you’ll be able to then import as a deck on
Dreamborn so uh yeah be sure to do that as well next one is from fantasy Factor they say steel is the best color in the game it keeps every other color in check and then I followup question which we already kind of talked about I was
Going to ask do we need better removal and I also want to pose a card to you guys one I don’t know what color it’d be in one cost unable destroy I’m not going to use the right terms but destroy Target creature its controller gains lore equal to its
Lore it’s lore could be attack but I think to its lore yeah I was think I was I thought you were going to say ATT attack and then you said lore you think it’s busted yeah it’s completely that amount of Flor does not make up for the what if it was attack
What if it was a attack it would still be broken still be broken yeah I think it would destroy the shift mechanic it would make the shift mechanic unplayable in like every aspect but I do hope we get some hyper efficient uh removal at some point because I don’t know I the
The mid-range stuff is fun but I like the you were talking about this earlier Espy like they there are more non-linear Decks that are playable I hope that that expands in the future yeah I mean I think it’s a huge thing for me I mean
Inwent is kind of what I was known for is like seeing some kind of card which can be abused in a similar way to Jafar and then just trying to actually like build something that works so I’ve really enjoyed this set like for that reason just like there’s lots more to do
I think also like in reference to the meta game with uh set one and set two for Lana I love deck building but then playing the actual game it was like leaving a bit for me to be desired I think like set two especially at the
Start was a bit of like a rock paper scissors meta where you’ve kind of got like aggro Steel in the middle and then control whereas now it just feels like everything is a lot more fluid and uh yeah I’m really enjoying the game a lot
I felt like set one and set two were a game of rock paper scissors gun where there was rock paper scissors but then there was Ruby amethyst which was just I refused to play Ruby amethyst too it’s just not my style I like being a hipster
Yeah Ruby amethyst was the only way of at least somewhat Escaping The Rock Pap paper scissors style yeah all right well again if you want to get your question right out next week’s pod you just a comment on YouTube uh we talked about pretty much all the topics last thing I
Wanted to mention here was that I mean the list that we’re working on right now and I’m actually I’m super high on this list and I previously set one set two hated this archetype uh in color combination which is Amber Steel mid-range I feel like this deck has
Gotten a lot of tools in terms of being a mid-range deck like previously in set one and set two I felt like if you were playing Amber Steel and you weren’t doing the unfair shift sing A Whole New World you were just losing a lot of games especially vers control I felt
Like you had almost no chance it does feel like Amber Now can do the Whole New World unfair thing shift something do it on turn three dump the whole entire hand but they have so much more reach nowadays they have this hyper efficient 2 cost and the form Mr Fe Mr SME they
Have Beast they have Robin Hood um the big Cinderella is a great addition um and then it just has like I I love the you know this card is a card I’m actually pretty low on because I sometimes I think that the the the trade with bare necessities is not great but
It is so good in this list to yoink be prepared it’s out of your opponent’s hand at Key times or yoink the whole do world out of your opponent’s hand when you know you can out value them with something like a beast in terms of card
Draw um I just didn’t expect you know off the back of that tournament I looked at the first the the winning list I was a bit confused uh to be honest a lot of one ofs a lot of two ofs but ultimately the archetype and the ink
Combination I think it’s going to rise I really do yeah I also think the core of the deck was built pretty well like I liked uh the the shift Cinderella the Rapunzel was kind of cute too and I think seems like it’s a pretty good way to go the
Robin Hood stuff’s definitely good um but I definitely didn’t like the stitches for sure especially the Rockstar Stitch what set the deck apart for most Ember Steelers even if people weren’t really playing much EMB but I think people were a little bit down on the lanterns and I think lanterns are
Yeah the correct way to to go about EMB at the moment so I think benj benj in set 2 was pretty popular like nowhere to be seen at the moment so M and it’s not a good trade for your opponent if they have to rise off the Titans your Lantern
After your Lantern already did something yeah yeah where’s bener for benjer for atanon is like game- winningly good right and this is why sp’s playing the lucky dime cuz there’s no Benes in the M yeah exactly that that’s a game winning trade right there okay so one card we
Have to talk about for Amber Steel is chernabog one chernabog is actually good in songs I’m certain so I’m not certain I’m Sor so let me explain why so chabog I think it’s a card you only ever play one copy of so chabog if you guys are
Unfamiliar it’s an unable 10 cost which has like what like N9 n stats and quest for three if um when you play this card every card that you have every character card you have in your graveyard it reduces its cost so and then it adds all of those cards characters in the
Graveyard back into your deck so obviously if you find this card in your early hand it’s pretty disastrous but with Lantern you might be able to still get away with playing it at like seven cost or something and obviously you’re playing like a or a whole new world so
It shouldn’t be too tricky to just get rid of it if that happens but obviously it’s very good if you find it later on you can just dump it down for free but I think what a lot of people are overlooking with this card is the fact
That it’s also helping you in a game where it’s going to Mill uh this deck is struggling a lot when in games where it goes to Mill because you’ve got lots of card draw with obviously let the storm rage on aiel uh Beast for example but there’s uh times where if the chernabog
Is kind of in like the lower third of your deck like the lower uh like the last 20 cards or so you’re going to be able to play that chernabog and then suddening just out of nowhere you’ve got way more cards than your opponent in
Deck and I think we saw actually a lot in the tournament this weekend there was a lot of games that were at least the threat of going to Mill were quite serious and I think that it’s a really interesting card for that reason and I think I would always play one chabog in
These decks f example in game three of the semi of the other semi-final Jus versus fante yeah um I think it was oh no jibas versus Brandon Deo right that that makes sense um they they actually both were on like seven seven to eight cards and jibas always stayed on one
More card than their opponent so that they don’t lose to the wheel and in in that specific scenario having chabor and and then reading would actually just completely close out the game and I I see the potential for the card um drawing into it later and also for not
Being made out in the longer drawn out games I’m just and I I it it could be good enough I’m just not sure about it because the the downside of drawing it early is is extremely huge yeah yeah the downside of drawing it early is definitely big but I think when you’re
Playing a whole new world deck and when you have lanterns you can get away with it also just just coming back to whether we need more efficient removal I kind of want to have more removal but at the same time games are already so in that tournament games were so drawn out and
In the uh in the top cut we didn’t have any timer so a few rounds took like 1 hour 20 1 hour 30 there was some Ropers oh my goodness I was pulling my hair out at the roping yeah there was there there was some people they could have played
Faster but even even when they would play faster I think there was some games that just naturally take very long and I’m a little bit afraid games could be a little bit too slow if we get more fish moving yeah big set one issue actually
Was Ruby MTH M even with aases by the way if you didn’t have Evas uh yeah good luck finishing three games um but yeah big issue in set one for sure and it’s a it’s a really unfun tournament experience if or actually just inperson experience doesn’t have to be a
Tournament could be locals but um having a best of three where the possibility of getting to the third game is very unlikely it’s an un it’s just an fun factor I think it’s always a factor right like even if you were both playing aggro deck someone could be playing
Egregiously slow and I guess it’s a threat but when it comes to like okay we’re both playing at a reasonable pace and it’s still extremely unlikely we get to play a game three uh I think it’s definitely a fault uh of design they should they should keep it in mind I I’m
Happy you mentioned Mill with this deck because I didn’t watch any of those matches I’ve been playing some Amber Steel and I milled two of my opponents and I was actually pretty surprised about that um so yeah it’s it’s a real threat it’s honestly like a really
Interesting uh like dynamic in the games when you’re watching them as well as a viewer where like as I was casting a lot of these games I’m like by the way guys like if this game goes on much longer like there is like both players have to
Be considering as as Mo mentioned like Jus or whoever it was was kind of just staying one card ahead at all times like it does add like a a really interesting extra layer to the games at points yeah if anybody played Ruby amethyst prior to
Vases being added to the list in set one that was the that was the true M matchup staying above a card on your opponent and then like broom shuffling infinite infinite comboing with brooms and oh it was such a bad gameplay experience but that is long gone that is
Long gone anyway um that’s all I had sort of on the docket today I have one question guys while I’m on the podcast something I spoke to Mo about what I’ve noticed since I’ve been posting videos in the last couple weeks for loana is my comment section are very angry at the
Amount of unable cards I include in my decks oh yeah what do you guys think is the optimal amount of unable cards now I also want to make a big Point not all unable cards are created equally so there’s no way there like just a set number right for example let the storm
Rage on is an unable card but it’s drawing you a card so I feel like that should almost be valued at like half an un inable or something in your deck because there’s a good chance it’s going to draw you an in card when you play it
For example but like what do you guys what are you guys looking at when you’re playing I go heavy on un incbles like outrageously heavy on unbl on average and obviously the other thing to bear in mind is the heavier you are on unbl the less flexible you are with your Mulligan
Right like if you’re on like 20 un incbles you need to be very very safe with your Mulligan whereas if you’re playing less you can be more aggressive with your Mulligans yep I think I think in set one and set two Brandon and me were probably playing the Ruby amethyst
Versions with by far the most UN incubate nice we also did the math though to be fair we did that we did the math yeah but I’m I don’t know I kind of I I think the math that we did have was also not taking into account some
Factors on on like friends on the other side drawing too occasionally or Merlin the rabbit completely not like that’s not an unink but it draws me at least like two cards if I if I get to that and it’s very easy to get to that so I think personally I
Think okay how do I say this I’m I’m saying it anyway I think it’s kind of cringe to have this oh you can only play X on incubates and because some people have this Vision where like oh you play 69 incubates that’s fine you play 17 n that’s terrible your deck’s awful now
But what what it what it is is just so every un inable you add not not not taking into into consideration can trips that replace themselves but every un Inc you add has a cost of slightly you have to you have to slightly alter your migan and you’re
Running some slight extra risk and just the more incits you have the higher the cost of adding an extra un incub is so that let’s say I already have um high amount of un incubates then for me to add another uninc and that uninc has to
Be very good doesn’t mean I will never do it just because I reached a certain number yeah uh the other reason is cring is because what are these people basing that on I I understand that you can have a feel for something but if you’re adamant that you’re objectively correct
About um something like an unable ratio and it’s only based in anecdotal Theory or in anecdotal evidence it’s like yeah obviously it’s cringe so the math on it which it the math is not perfect but it’s pretty [Â __Â ] close to perfect like okay it doesn’t account for uh this
Is set one math by the way doesn’t account for friends on the other side doesn’t account for Maleficent drawing a card but everything else it accounts for it accounts for the Mulligan extremely powerful Mulligan in Kaa it it’s accounting for all of that so there’s some there’s additional there’s
Additional factors you need to include which is like your curve how important is it that you hit six ink by turn six how important is it that you hit seven ink by turn seven it’s a dra it’s drastically different right and let’s say in Old School Ruby MTH this set one
Ruby impis and you can extrapolate this to set three or anything but old school Ruby this hitting seven in by turn seven really important you need be prepared Ursula like if you’re missing your ink if you’re missing your seventh ink that’s a big deal so you want to have
Seven ink by turn seven because of that if you do the math and you you account for that you can turbo Mulligan for all Inca you are 98% certain to have seven ink by turn seven if you have 18 un inable cards so you’re like okay 98%
It’s a lot yeah it’s more than I thought it would be yeah but but at the same time that that doesn’t take into account that okay let’s say how I need to get to Seven ink on seven but also I want to play a card on two a card on three that
Doesn’t replace itself a like then that gets gets a lot lot harder plus it doesn’t I I think that Mulligan that that was considering is probably like oh I’m keeping every incub I I see turbo for yeah yeah and if you don’t want to be turbo have to be turbo Ming for
Incubates because you want to be mning for key cards if if you can but so it’s it’s all like on a on a wide range and um it’s just depending on how many units you need to Mulligan differently and um also never think okay this amount of un is
Okay this amount isn’t it’s just the cost changes from adding another un yeah also like really depends on your deck right like for example Amber Steel songs if some of your unbl are lanterns which kind of pay for themselves you’ve got let the stormr on which replace itself
But also you’re able to sing a whole new world really early like I think that’s an example of a deck which should be very very heavy on un incbles and yet we saw on this Tournament winning deck who was only like 14 I would be pushing 20 minut
With a deck like that but I also think that like the heavier you are on unbl the higher the ceiling of the deck is but it also becomes more difficult to play MH yeah so so your ink curve matters as well like what like is it
Really important to get to six in by turn turn six s ink by turn seven but also I said 98% and there’s a reason why I said 98% because that’s the value you’re looking for this is You can disagree with this Theory but there’s a theory in card games that if there’s
Anything that is at a game losing like it’s a game losing um sort of detriment right not having 7even in by turn seven missing your your seventh land drop you want to be above 98% to hit it that’s the idea and then I think that if something is detrimental but not game
Losing it’s like above 95% this is like an old magic theory that they’re extrapolating through Lana I think it holds uh but it’s just like some sort of probability Theory we went with 21 unbl in set one even though the mass said you’re 98 you need to be above 98%
Certainty to have seven ink by turn seven it is 18 unable cards if you go to 21 it’s 95.9% but the reason we pushed it is because the deck there is Nuance Right Use the math they get the Baseline but then you add in the nuance and that’s
You just as a player and the Nuance is things like what used to be the book right that could draw cards it’s also Maleficent it’s also singing friends on the other side that additional Nuance allows you to maybe stretch the unbl to something like 21 when the math doesn’t
Necessarily support it because the math isn’t taking that into account I don’t think that the math is the end all be but it’s resource for sure yeah yeah so so the Math’s important but it’s then like okay if the if the math tells you by adding two ext1 Inca builds like I
Don’t know I add an extra 4% of the time that I don’t hit 7even in by seven then then that you have to take that math and then decide okay is will I win enough games that I otherwise would be losing by adding these and incits right that’s
It’s it’s always a trade-off MH yep so I mean tldr is like yeah we are much higher on on enables I think than what it sounds like the your comment section is but yeah for sure mostly because it’s it is it is supported by math to be
Higher on these unbl like that that is jet that the like that conclusion is supported by math whether you’re on 21 or 22 or you’re accounting for drawing cards of to you’re accounting Maleficent or Merlin that is not supported by Ma and that’s that’s that’s Theory right but ultimately the higher the higher
Number of inals is is something that you can math out via hypergeometric calculations so I can I’ll put a link to the article um that was written by Frank Carson that we referenced in order to come to these numbers um yeah we’re we’re on the higher end for sure yeah
It’s it’s interesting I do think in general um from what I’ve seen the community are too afraid of putting lots of unbl in the deck but it’s Al it like I say it does definitely make the it more difficult and you know people can whiff and have like a handful of unink
Bles once and then they’re like oh I’ve got to cut something but like it is going to happen occasionally right like you say like one in 50 games or so is like what you should kind of be looking at that and that’s kind of could be an acceptable range I think I’m quite
Possibly too high on the amount of unbl to play but uh in general I think people are way way way too cautious even at a lot of the top meta like lists I’m seeing in tournaments I think people can like this Steel song deck is a huge
Example like there was only two copies of Zeus and I’m just like I I would always play four copies of that card in uh ambis steel songs and you just have to have to find a way to make it work in my opinion one thing I would question
Though is like I I’m not sure if that player made that decision to not include the Zeus because it was an inable they could be they could also think that inkable cards that are that they’re replacing with are just more powerful like maybe they just want more
Characters on board they I I interviewed them and they they said that they would didn’t want to go any more copies of un incbles they like to be low on un incbles for consistency also I want to add to the discussion because right now we’ve only talked about um the
Likeliness of of whiffing on on on Inc about how how important is to play inhabits but that’s that’s not the only point because um the flexibility of which card you want to be inking and which card you want to be playing adds to the value of incits if I if I have
Like three cards aand I need to Ink one of them play the other two if they’re all inkable I can better choose to have the perfect card for the scenario that that I’m expecting so that’s also something that like all of these things come together and all of them are
Nuanced and people should not for be forgetting that this is far more complicated than even the math that we are using but that doesn’t mean that the math we’re using is uh is like worthless it’s it’s still a good Baseline to go off of and I think like honestly this this inkable unable
System is like what makes slana so great it makes the deck building so interesting it makes the balance like you can have cards like Let It Go and Hades being like we mentioned like Hades is just so much better but you still might run let it go because it’s inkable
And I think like it makes the game fascinating and even just the decision making actually in terms of um like Mo mention like which cards you’re inking it is becoming I think the you know the higher you go on on Inc balls the better the ceiling of your deck is but then
It’s also making your decisions potentially like more difficult and more interesting as well like it’s really fast like there’s a lot of games I’ve been playing recently where like ah I Inked the wrong card and I think that’s like a really fascinating Dynamic of the game it’s a subtle form of complexity
That adds many many many more chances for you to make you both you and your opponent to make mistakes which is where skill expression comes from and it’s not like this the thing is it’s like Matt I believe that magic has this sort of sort of position to make mistakes
Embedded into the faas system a lot in priority um and L doesn’t have that but Sam black I believe is Sam black a famous magic player wrote an article about the detriment of these systems of being able putting cards down to ink and that it it’s not good and it doesn’t
Scale well because you’re presenting players with so many decisions that they can make incorrectly and it makes bad players really bad um but I think that it’s part it’s I mean it’s seamless enough in Lana that it’s it’s not at the bad end of it yet but it does give you a
Lot of agency over skill expression because it is it’s actually extremely complex on what card to ink and what not do maybe it’s not when you have a hand of four un incbles and one inkable and you need to Ink in order to play your card But ultimately over the course of a
Game you have to be thinking about a lot of factors even like you have think about the board State what your opponent has what’s in your hand what could come off the top of your deck Etc like it is an extremely complicated system but it’s presented as very simp because
Ultimately the actual description of what you have to do is very simple pick a card that has this this little circle or design around it and put it down but those decisions are extremely impactful in a game of L there also like another decision which I find really interesting
Which probably is like something a lot of uh less skill players won’t do do it’s like you’ve got like a one or two cost card in hand and obviously like usually you’re just tempted to play that on curve but in certain hand States it might be better to just hold on to that
Card and save it for Inc for a later Point 100% that’s it almost cost me game two of the fin nights where I kept the Robin Hood on the play and it was met with a Cinderella and I would much I think it’s a fine answer to have when
The opponent doesn’t drop CER on one but playing it on one actually ended up um hurting me a lot that I didn’t have that inkl I I did top like three UN incubates in a row but uh that’s besides the point I I opened myself up to that happening just
Because I I took that risk which I shouldn’t necessarily have taken um I think it’s just basically it makes Resource Management uh interesting as it’s not it’s not just okay when do I play which card but also every turn you have this micro decision of what cards
Will be the most valuable over the next few turns of this game or even know over the entirety of this game and I I think those decisions are incredible mhm yeah so I just have an anecdote from like a set one game that I was playing in
Person uh my opponent had my deck list cuz my like they some people had net decked my deck at that point so they he had 21 unbl and I remember we played a game um and he played out Archimedes turn one and then something turn two
Turn three and then on turn four he goes pass and doesn’t ink something and I was like what and the next turn doesn’t ink something doesn’t ink something he was like yeah man and ultimately loses the game because yeah just drew these un incbles I was like bro what is this you
Can’t play a 2 two Archimedes if you have three incbles in hand it’s like it’s not even an option it’s not even a possible playline you just have to accept that if I being the second turn player have Archimedes plus an inkable I’ll be three low ahead or something
Before you get Maleficent down but like there’s a like it it is with that with that deck in that context it was actually not even a reasonable play line to take because you don’t there’s no reason to take the risk of the top of the deck feeding you incbles or not like
You just can’t play the one drop aramed I think it happens Less in set three because we’re so Tempo based and playing on One Drops is very very powerful right now um but yeah it it it is it is I guess it is a bit of like a level up or
Something you realize as you play more where it’s like maybe I don’t play this on curve this is a resource I need this yeah you kind of just conditioned to slam a card on curve right but often it can be better to not I think it’s also
The biggest decision for for Ember steel decks and coming back to Robin Hood because Robin Hood is a card that’s insanely good if you sh can shift onto him on three but every time you don’t have the big Robin Hood you have have to be seriously asking yourself How likely
Am I to draw into it until I need it and how bad is me playing this Robin Hood if I cannot shift onto it because it can easily lose you the game but also at the same time if you draw to the shift Robin Hood on turn to or three and you didn’t
Put that uh that W down that that can also be determined so there’s you know how solve in that you cut it yeah exactly you just never shift Robin Hood hand never do powerful stuff do powerful all right spey I want to give you a chance to shout out where people can
Find you what you’re up to Etc yeah I’m posting loads of stuff on YouTube at the moment so uh I don’t I didn’t get like a custom URL on this channel yet but like if you search Espy Lo you’ll find me I’m also streaming on Twitch which is um twitch.tv
Specimen specimen all right sweet again appreciate you coming on the podcast always have great conversations when you when you join us um if you’re listening to this and you enjoy it or and if new to the podcast potentially you found us last week number one thing you can do is
Leave us a review on Apple podcast or Spotify also on YouTube you can hit that subscribe button um it helps us keep those lights on like I mentioned there a video version of this on YouTube at youtube.com podc podcast again check the description for anything we talked about
And Twitter’s are Brandon APG Kor CG Moore HS and it’s specimen thank you all so much for listening we’ll see you next week
19 Comments
$1600?
Thanks for having me! It was a lot of fun.
Back to back episodes, nice
Love your all’s podcast! Wanna ask a question; do you all think relentless beast otk is viable or are the bayou’s and Nottingham’s too clunky?
Would it be too good or not good enough to just have the second player start with one extra ink? So on their first turn they can play a 2 drop and have the ink advantage for the remainder of the game (obvious exceptions would be the opponent playing ramp). I feel like that would even things out just a bit. Player one gets to establish their board quicker, but doesn’t have access to a turn 1 2-drop or 2 1-drops. Maybe it would be too strong for aggro decks, but I’m really not sure. I like to play competitively but I only have the time to be a casual lol.
When a player goes first – and ultimately loses the game, what percentage of the reason for the loss was due to 'ink-screw' and what percentage is due to Player 2 just being able to surge ahead in taking control of the game?
Regarding the uninkable topic. My buddy has been playing a deck with 31 uninkable cards in sapphire/amethyst. And just changing his mindset to hard mulligan for inkables and ramp. And then if you bad draw you just have to ink every inkable card. Then you drop bomb after bomb after bomb. It’s wild and actually plays super well. Turn 5 Elsa is wild lmao
I think a great way to make going second not suck is the player on the drawstarts off with 1 ink and on turn 1 can ink and get to 2… totally skipping 1 ink. That way even though the other player is ahead in terms of playing cards… the second player will have the advantage of an extra card…and an extra ink… which could and would… make people actually like to..sbd choose to go second.
I wonder if they'll make cards that trigger when you or your opponent reach a certain lore count? That could be interesting. When you get to 12 lore, draw a card, or deal 1 damage to a character etc. And it'd trigger whenever you hit 12, including if someone removes lore from 13 with Aladdin, or Ursula etc. I haven't thought it through and I don't know cards past set 1 very well, so it could end up being very broken.
As far as cards, I feel like new Rafiki is actually better as a second player card no?
Play/Draw Coin Flip idea: A cards cycle that are normally uninkable but have an ability if you are on the draw then you can ink them, or that plus if they are in your hand on your turn one you can play them as an additional ink. Limit this "cycle" of cards to 2-3 per ink color and good cards on the power creep. This could allow strategies where the draw would be the desired state of decks with this mechanic. If not this mechanic what would would be a new mechanic you could intro to combat the "53%" 😉
Lol this is savage
Great ep again gents! Curious if Moyen would make any changes anticipating another new weekly meta shift. Assuming meta goes more location hate and/or slower as the presence of steel in general has slowed down aggro?
the most liked deck on dreamborn in trending is uber aggro and I do really well with it.
your opp. has to have the answers and going for the risk that they don‘t have any is very viable.
shifted WNW is a huge issue for going first edge, I hope they ban/limit WNW before set championships happen
Going first issue: I would love to see powerful going second cards, e.g. inkable 3 3 rush cards for like 3 cost (potentially reckless, dmg themselves like smee etc.). that would punish questing early on and would be an easier and more flexible out to locations. You need to be able to control the board earlier and easier going second.
Also, we need more strong stuff going second that counters shifted WNW or shifted swords. Something like an inkable 2 dmg action for cost 1 that can just kill the small character so no shift is possible.
Speci having takes making me come to the comments lmao
in my limited decks i be playing 5 uninkable's and still drawing 4 in a row in crucial moments so just be lucky
15/16, 17 is pushing it for uninkables. But also depends on what point of game it would be played.