From E190 with Richard Cheetham MBE
Richard Cheetham is a senior fellow in Sports Coaching at the University of Winchester. He received an MBE for his contribution to education and community sport in the 2017 New Years honours list.
Richard is both nationally and internationally recognised within the world of coach education, having worked with the likes of Sarcens, British Fencing, British Cycling, England Cricket Coaches Association, and the UCI World Cycling Elite Coach Education Programme since 2014.
00:00 Coaching Philosophy for Building Connections
13:25 The Power of Coaching Relationships
21:10 Balance Between Qualification and Experience
27:58 Finding Your Unique Coaching Identity
39:51 Coaching Philosophy Development Through Qualifications
50:32 Coaching With Empathy and Vulnerability
59:15 Self-Awareness and Improvement Through Experience
01:09:24 Coaching Philosophy and Curiosity
01:18:32 Lessons From Sports Documentaries
01:27:03 The Power of Authentic Storytelling
01:32:18 Connecting With Potential Coaching Contacts
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Richard Cheon thank you very much for coming on to the show well thank you very much you’re welcome l so I want to dive straight into coaching philosophy and I want to start off by asking what is your coaching philosophy okay well uh I suppose that
Philos My Philosophy is is a way of being in necess a list of things it’s how you are so and one of the things that is I always want to make it a memorable experience positive memorable experience of being coached um but there’s enjoyment I put brackets fun
That sometimes got all fun but but we’re not learning think well let’s call it in an enjoyable learning environment they reflect on positively that celebrates success in all its forms I heard you talk about in an interview before when you were saying the first few weeks especially at the University
He was saying the first few weeks you want to you can almost disregard the learning within the first few weeks and really get to know people in that and it was a real it was actually really refreshing to hear and I was then putting myself back to experiences I’ve
Been and you think day one sometimes people or coaches want to go straight in with knowledge maybe even to place a little bit of credibility in from their side and go right we’re going to throw some knowledge and we’re going to do some exercises we’re going to do this
But actually taking the time to get to know someone and it was funny that you what the timing of me having this podcast with you because I’d done something recently with uh a couple of clients where I chosen to spend one or two sessions with them just purely
Getting to know them and they they’d almost look like you’re not doing anything you’re not actually going anywhere in in invert comm’s sort of progression of skill development but actually what I was hoping and then what you cemented in the conversation was you you’re actually developing the relationship to do all of
That better further so yeah it was it was very interesting when you spoke about spending that first few weeks what is it that you’re trying to do within those first few weeks when you are working with people to get to understand them you made a a really interesting
Point that we we thinking we one let we have to validate ourselves this subject content here we are this is a subject this is our degree and all like I understand that but equally put yourself in the shoes of the learner who’s going to be there for three years maybe it’s
Their first time waiting home in Alien environment doesn’t know anybody um and you know if I’m going to work with somebody for three years without being intrusive in the questioning because it’s not about being nosy it’s actually just digging a little bit bit deep to who’s in front of me what their
Background is um variety of different things and no one particular question like where where are you from what’s your favorite sport they they’re important questions they unimportant but I ask other questions um that give you a little bit of a narrative behind why that person’s there um and the knowing
Of somebody is very important in connecting with someone because there could be that instant connection with someone across the room instant connection with myself what shared interest where we um Somebody went to the same secondary school as me obviously many years apart and it’s it you if I’m if we are
Going to coach somebody teach somebody spend time with somebody and the knowledge has come second the the connection comes first the understanding of aort trust open um th those are really important foundations before we move on to the second piece otherwise it becomes process like I walk in you teach me I
Learn graduate and I don’t really want to have an environment that is is like that I want to have it more of a nurturing environment where people you know I I always remember the first lecture with students and I always recall it to them when they graduate and they always remind me of
Moments and that for me is is priceless in what I said about My Philosophy about creating memorable experiences so if that was if that was someone walking into your first lecture what might that look like yeah I think what what trying to do in the first lecture is is um it
Is I have a game it’s called a tattoo game apologies for the name I made the game up I call a tattoo game if you ask a group of people and I have plenty of examples of this and uh if anybody’s got a tattoo in the room and
Then people hand up yeah tattoos are an insight into people tattoos generally have around about five things you know um they are Allegiance the team they support there family you know births of children relationships um GE geography sometimes where they live Sometimes some of their culture yeah Pacific Islanders
For example have culture C you the cultural symbolism that goes with tattoos and then always a funny one which is um mistakes where someone’s got a tattoo wish it hadn’t done it you know they an ex partner or a night out for example um and that opens up you know because
People have tattoos as a it’s their story they’re wearing their story and and that then I said well give me another theme and then people through another theme and because they choose the themes I can develop a question from that theme if I come with my questions
Were they’re my questions if the group has biocity very much around I’m asking this question because I want to know where I sit with other people you know so it could be um anybody else play musical instrument you know they want to know to they want to
Feel where they fit who’s around them where the connections are it’s interesting you say that because I’ve got i’ I’ve got my tattoo here and okay that is uh it’s of my cap number for Sussex so I’m the 6 96th player to a play for Sussex and it’s
It’s the Roman numerals of the of that number with the Sussex emblem the badge behind it and the martlets and I got that inspired by an old teammate of mine and he had he played um for his country and he had his country on his chest and
He had his cap number on his chest and I asked him like why is it there and he said because that’s my story that’s a part of my story and that’s a part of me and I even remember then thinking well even the scars that you have on your
Body the I’ve got all these different scars from moments that I’ve had whether it’s playing sport or just silly accidents I’ve had along the way or surgeries that I’ve had to have and each one is a story and I used to then think well I would get a tattoo if it had a
Story behind it but every tattoo does have a story even if it was you were pissed up somewhere and you you just decided to have it that that’s a story right that’s a story that you’ve got and I think even those ones they connect you on that level and it’s those little
Idiosyncrasies the the scars the lit literally those those stories that we have that will connect us the best and yeah that’s that’s a interesting game that you’ve decided you’re wearing your story and that’s immediately without me knowing anything about you that question about tattoo look how long you’ve spoken
About something your face lights up you recall that moment you start talk about how it happened it’s a very proud moment you huge proud moment to have something like that and so you’re wearing your story and and imagine they’re room full of people who do have them but doesn’t
Have not everybody has to have them because then you develop it further and you say well is anybody thinking of having one and then if you had it what would it be but so you start to connect people in for people or if I had one it would be
You know some daughters a third of October 2010 yeah that would be mine tattoo if I if I had one um and then we joke around why why wouldn’t you have it and they said well you haven’t left home yet so I don’t want to tell my parents
Or thecage to tell my husband or wife go girlfriend boyfriend yeah and then of course that that lightness then it gives what I call permission environment for them people to feel at EAS to do other things you know and then you already what you’ve got is connection that it’s
Actually a safe place to share things an interesting you yeah I really like this whole the the the the literally philosophy that you’re talking about because it’s I think I go back to school right I go back to school and I think of I think of the teachers that I loved it
Wasn’t the subject they were teaching it was nothing to do with the the actual curriculum it was all to do with who they were how they taught us how they treated us the environment they created in that classroom and and and I went to a state
School so we got a state school it’s it’s a big room I we’d have classes the 30 to 40 kids sometimes and they’re they’re bigass classrooms at that time and to create that environment where and and I actually then think about it now as a sort of more fully formed adult
Where you go that’s a one man like orchestrating all of those people and I think most coaching environments have sort of some form of R show where it’s like you can’t have more than 16 people to one person and then it sort of disconnects but you think wow how how he
Just literally this one teacher his name was Mr Shephard right and he he was so good at holding a room and everyone loved him absolutely loved him I don’t know many people that had been taught by him that wouldn’t say he was one of their favorite teachers and he just made
You feel like you’re one of his mates you you went in there and if he did say something that was to shut the room up whatever you listened you instantly listen whereas there were other teachers you might challenge or there might be a bit more friction because they hadn’t
Created that that connection that bond with them and what this is talking about I think people Miss I think people don’t create that too often and I’m curious to know what you think might be some of those reasons why they wouldn’t create that what what would possibly be the
Reasons why coaches would feel or would struggle to create that that connection like that well first of all I wonder whether he’d actually rang Mr Shepherd and told him because I had a geography teacher for Mr PR and um yeah I was told to ring him up and I rang him up in
2010 25 years after he taught me to my dry retake and he retired but he remembered me and uh yeah don’t know if it may he was surprised to here from me but 25 years ago never forgotten the impact he had at a very important time in my life you
Know crucial time and I sometimes wonder whether we are you know whether we find time to let those people know exactly how they made us feel because that’s so enriching you know um and and that’s that that teacher Mr Shepherd will have hugely influenced people critical time of their life and
Subjects they may not love confidence may not get elsewhere um and what I suppose your question is why don’t we find time well because I think we are there is a tendency to feel when a race to learn right marks get said go let’s go we got curriculum to do we’ve
Got a session to plan we got a season to prepare for y I know that I I don’t find that less important but that bit comes after the first bit you know if you ever been to a physio or an osteopath for example those first few moments are about listen to you know
They want to know your back story they want to know you V your KN they want want to know a little bit more about you that actually lead to why you heard your need and then the drive to why you want to get better so quickly what you want
To get quicker for um it isn’t you know it’s never be an onerous process I mean if you meet somebody for the first time um you know we we how do we connect we connect through conversation about about one another what’s happening in your life what’s happening in Mor teaching
Coaching should be absolutely no different because um you know I don’t mean this to be an I’ll give you an example I uh somebody said to me oh um want to do an Iron Man and I said what do you want to do an Iron Man said
Because I want to be a triathlete so well you’d have to be athlete there’s something deeper there so really deeper there said I said no not really I said well there’s got to be something there because to sacrifice so much time to one goal has got to be a
Real meaning behind it got to mean something to you because if it means something to you the training is easy if it’s or I feel I should do it it will it will break down if if there’s an ill and drive to do it then it’s easy it
Doesn’t mean the training is easy it means that on tough days you go through it so you ask the back story to think people connect you know how many times have you walked past somebody you worked with and I bet there’s something you share that you’ve never found out you
Know I did a uh I won’t mention the school but lovely school I went into some staff with their staff and the two teachers and we taught about music and like I said like come back gave him an activity that was kind of spirits around music and the physics teacher and the
Call it home economics now you know there not sure what the common term is for for that um but they had both been at the same mtown concert the week before they worked together for 12 years and they never knew each other how to Shared love
My my work was done in many ways and want to know I want to go back in there a year on find out how they found found out how they connected so you know the art of I work in Professor cycling and you’re going to be with
And then what in professional rugby as well you know in professional Cy you are away with from your family for 200 days a year it’s quite important you you look at that person Beyond The Athlete you know what doesn’t mean that you want to be intrusive about their
Life just understand you know and share those conversations that are not performance conversations they’re just about life I I think I think of the there’s this quote by John Wooden which is a good coach can change a game a great coach can change a life yeah and I think
That’s it’s actually so much deeper and truer than just that quote itself because I don’t I don’t think the per my personal per my personal belief of the art of good coaching should not be about that I leave these people with the skill sets to perform in
The arena that they’re in because it is one it’s not guaranteed they’re going to to do to get success because even if they are the best ever like the goats of whatever domain they’re in everyone has a loss percentage everyone has no one’s 100% so no one’s there’s going to be
Moments where they’re not going to win and that I’ve I’ve always pondered over the even the thought of people talk around well the the the journey is the destination but actually the the company I think that you have along the way is even more important so those those relationships that sit
Alongside all of that and just everything that I’ve had or I see now or what I try to be is right how can you leave these people as better human beings because their sport will end we need to not only just equip them for just sport but also equip them for life
But probably in doing that we will make them better athletes they will just be that and I I’m curious to to know what you think where you where you believe in at is can you create good human beings and great athletes at the same time absolutely I I I think that the two
Go hand inand you know because we want to be treated as a person first and the athlete second you know you don’t you I’ve been to too many I’ve been to some of environments where there’s a hierarchy in the room and it’s like I’m a level four coach and I’m a level one
Coach so I changed the question and I made people leave the room and come back in the room and I said when you introduce yourself this time introduce yourself as a difference you make to other people a level be workout because right now my the most important coach in
The room is one of coaches my daughter and she’s six not level four coach yeah it’s about reframing what your role is is my role get my role is in high performance but you know what I’m I coach six sholds if I come back in 10 years time and still doing the sport
They did with me and I set them on that Journey well I have been a part in that Journey that is you know I Spar the love in it you my daughter does down bike racing she didn’t do that at six she love ring a bike she never knew that
Eight years on she be doing that the love is what sparks that you know if you get love of some sort that’s the energy and that that sets a light that path of Engagement and pursuit of it um so your levelness of Coach yes is a recognitional where you’re working at
And obvious an achievement to get to that level but just think about how would you answer that question what difference I make to other people and in that Journey which you talk about you know sometimes that Journey has different significances for people it can be a journey of
Overcoming it can be a journey of setback and you me about resilience you know a red Ser it could be um a journey of of pure ambition I’ve you know I’ve I’ve always wanted to do this and if you understand that drive that individual then you orchestrate and react with
Individuals in a very different way you know you’re not you’re not have a room full of one size fits all people you’ve got a room full of very degrees of motivation and and explore that and then also if you think about the journey that you and I have been on in our separate
Ways all the people we’ve met and when you mentioned John Wooden coach you know great coach changed some of his life well I met a great coach who absolutely changed my life you know and there’s two particular coaches who had real significance one I’m still in
Touch with you know uh over 28 years on you know and on a karaoke station just with a broke ankle singing my way and there he was in front of this Legend coach I’d heard so much about and so embarrassed you’re the legend that’s MC ritual and
He’s one of one the greatest friends greatest influences so yes it it changed my life you know do you think that I was going to say do you think that people run away from this focusing on the human being first because of this potential impostor syndrome they may feel and need to force
That credibility over and it’s something that I was really interested in asking you around where do you believe the balance between qualification and experience lies and there’s probably another thing that I’ll layer on top of that in a minute but many people are I think too quick to sort of Slam
Their their qualifications the reason why they’re in the room or like what they’ve done here’s my list of who I’ve who I’ve worked with bang bang bang and then actually you miss that human bit which is what have you you gone through like how can I connect with you and and where is
Our where can I see myself in you sort of thing and and how can we how can we sort of bond in that way so yeah where do you lie with the blend between qualification and experience that PE coaches have yeah I mean this is a i
You’re doing mying but there is a feeling when your walk into room that we have to validate ourselves to the audience the first time you know so there’s there can be a feeling that you walk into to a new group you got to validate yourself straight away saying
Something or doing something I am this and I’ve done that now that you’ve done that great but you haven’t done it with the group in front of you they have no experience of you so their only validation of you is their experience of being with you you know if I have taken
A team and we’ve won a league well I haven’t won a league with you that that’s there that’s okay but the validation comes from my experience of you so we talk about philosophy beginning I always think you know go I mean it’s a long way back to the Legacy
Book by James Kerr but it’s it is very true you know what would others say of you is a better sometimes a better flet to say I am um so quantifications are important absolutely and I I work with national governing bodies where we want coaches here qualified we want them to
Get better it we want them to understand more about coaching give people better experiences in a safe environment and I always say don’t let the ceiling of the coach be the ceiling of the athlete you know I stopped learning therefore the person I’m learning can no longer get
Beyond that because I haven’t skilled if you want athletes to get better then coaches should get better coaches should learn informally read listen pick up ideas and also formally have that those qualifications so I don’t think there’s a one there isn’t any thing about being qualified I think
It it is important absolutely but um The Imposter syndrome which I had a question you mentioned it earlier from somebody when I was in a course just before Christmas and the guy said look um you know I’ve never ridden Twitter front so you know I’m worried that I’m
In this now this role and I said well you don’t have to ride the tour to France to have that role you have to know how to work with people you have to understand how to work the Dynamics of the relationship with people obviously you have to understand the sport you’ve
Got to have some intuitive response to that individual in front of you and that comes from experience um we know that the greatest footballers don’t always become the greatest managers um that is proven time and time again um so I sort of given quite a lot there but I would
Say when I’m introduced to groups I don’t always like to be introduced by what I’ve done I like to say what I’m there and then use in my presentation examples from my story where appropriate if I walk in the room sound the funniest man in the world I’ve got to make
Everybody laugh straight away okay that’s to other people but not to these people so I bring my experience to room know want to about the group I’m teaching to enable me to then work with them and then over time those little moments those noticing moments we give feedback we encourage we take somebody
On a a visit and they go that’s that’s true I haven’t thought about whatever it is that is the validation you get from the people it was interesting interesting I had a couple of students call get in touch with me bya social media and they are um sports psychology students so
They they’re doing either their undergrad or their masters and they were then looking to go into employment and they followed me on social media but they were then asking around how they get into certain institutions how do they get jobs how do they sort of get work
And I I mean I started the conversation by saying like look I’m in the trenches with you if anything like I’m not here I’m by no means and I haven’t I haven’t I didn’t go down sports psychology I’m in performance psychology and doing that route but it’s same D same same but
Different but um we they were saying what is the most important thing really to to get these roles and how do I do it what do I need to show and I just said like look your qualifications will get you into a room like no doubt they might get you an
Interview but do not discount the story and and the way you can be relevant to those people in the room and is leading again with this idea of story like what is it that you’ve gone through so if you were trying to and I asked them what
What level of sport have you played with for well I played Junior representative football but I’m now want to work in a professional football club so I don’t know whether I can work in that environment because I’ve not played at that level I said well you don’t have to have
Played there but if you’re going to talk to whether it’s an academy or whether it’s like a junior setup to begin with tell them some of your stories like what went on with you and if you’re trying to teach whether it’s like a mental skill through it might be selft talk or it
Might be visualization whatever it is like have you tried using it have you seen it work with someone or where have you seen a story of someone else work use the Le use that power of story to create that that that that con contion with them and then this sort of leads on
To my next bit which is I hear another form of coaches which are probably older that are a little bit cynical in their thinking which is that I’m not getting into those rooms due to the fact that I don’t have the experience and I don’t come from this
Environment so if you have a coach that has that mentality or is having that experience what would your advice be to someone like that yeah I I I do realize that in professional support there is uh a lot of roles given to those who have performed the highest level you know
We’re looking for an assistant coach the first team so we’ll get an ex first team player and that’s happens in all sports for in varying degrees of success and and you can understand why they make those appointments but to those people who haven’t kind of had that high performance
Background you know I always say to students open days and people I work with is what’s your and and they say what what you mean they said well you got degree a sports psychology what else and they said I don’t understand well you know I won’t name the team but
I want to work one professional rby teams and they spoke about uh the summer when students graduate and there influx of letters from people who’ been to a certain University and I just graduated from University X and they’re not written response but the response of the
Guy who I knew in there looked in and said well what’s C hand what’s your hand and if everybody’s done a degree in X surely can differentiate those people is the additional things that those be to their colors so you know I I love traveling the quite a few years just traveling and
And that’s a rich story to have with somebody because it gives you breath culture it it speaks of um you as a person having confidence and uh awareness um you know so and even if it’s something like you know I know I know a coach high performance coach at CH selftaught the
Guitar you know way back now didn’t get the job he’s got because by by doing that but I’m I was one of my questions was him I was fascinated how he taught himself the guitar didn’t have a coach so he’s got real understanding about learning so therefore he’s going to have a great
Understanding with with athletes and a oneto one um but it is the end and where your end is um is point of conversation that will get you into the room alongside the qualific the qualification but it will be a conversation stter with a person in front of you who knows what
You may connect with yeah I mean I left my job and I graduated and went uh to New Zealand you know for three years and first thing I did was was join rby Club English person and using rby you know that’s interesting I didn’t get any
I was welcome with open arms you know that that wasn’t my story to get my mind short but it certainly is you know my hand b i I really like that and it something that I when I transitioned out Cricket it was something that I’d really tried
To well weirdly enough it was actually something I did free becoming a a professional cricketer was I found it really important for myself to have my own USP as to why when whoever’s either going trying to sign me in a contract or at the very early stages when I was sort
Of 14 15 trying to get into trial setups for County age groups but I I needed to have a USP I needed to be unique I needed to have something and I remember sort of sitting um I was in a gym and I just now really vividly remember this
Just sitting there going what makes you different what What Makes You Different leis and I’m sitting there like and I’m sitting there go I got nothing and well I have my condition so I’m like well I’ve got this condition but that’s give me that’s got me on the back foot
Initially physically but actually it puts me on the front foot because I’m probably resilient to overcome some things and I’m might be braver in certain situations so okay I’ve got that that’s unique and then I’m then I start going a little bit further I’m like well what skills can I be slightly different
At well I don’t but then you get into a comparison race and I’m like well I’m not as good as them they I don’t have the skills like them but I’m left-handed okay I’ll I’ll take that like and it was something as simple as going I’m left-handed and that was where I started
And as I’ve grown up and I I continuously tried to do that find out what my find out what your USP can be what is how can I have my and and so I would continuously try to add those in so every year whether I’m adding a new
Skill I’ve got this extra skill or it was me going to Australia when I was 18 going having all these different experiences then I would add maybe a characteristic I need to be a better teammate I need to be empathetic need to be caring whatever it is I need to be
More hardworking adding those in and then get to retirement and then you lose the sport as like right now no longer trying to be a professional athlete now what is it that I want to do how do I try to get where I want to get to and I
Listen to and I I personally use um his app Sam Harris waking up I promote my own app but I use his app for myself um he he spoke in a podcast about how he’s a a mindfulness meditation teacher and a neuroscientist and he openly admitted he’s like I’m not the best meditation
Teacher in the world I’m not the best neuroscientist in the world but put them together I could possibly be the best one combined and I was like that is neat and and I then realized I sort of sat down and went well what is everything that I’ve done so I’ve overcome my
Condition become a professional cricketer I’ve become a yoga teacher meditation teacher breath work coach PT I’ve done all these different experiences then I’ve traveled here done that and then you you if you sit down long enough is where I’m getting with this is that if you sit down long enough
You can find your ANS you can find all your unique elements that come up to you and then if you can’t find them start making them like you said I mean I’m learning the guitar so I’m I’m self- teing myself the guitar and it’s it’s a fun experience right it’s I’m
Left-handed I couldn’t find too many people that could teach me left-handed so I like right screw it I’ll just learn it myself and then that gets me I mean even to the point where if you’re going out on a date with someone it’s like that’s a conversation piece right it’s something
It’s no it’s almost like starting youring coaching relationship with people is like dating they got to know a little bit about you first before they really want to get into a deeper relationship with you so I I think for people who I find always are struggling
To find out what makes me unique what H how can I be unique I’m not as good as these people that I see out there on TV and if you’re a coach I’m not as good as someone on Netflix or whatever it is it’s like well you will have a story
Somewhere you will have these bits about you somewhere you just got to try and find them like and and it for me it didn’t take too long once you start listing things out you’re like oh gez I’ve done a bit Yeah and don’t you know don’t sing
Someone else’s songs you don’t don’t try and be anybody else like when we first spoke you know I was more interested in your resilience than anything else you know human body resilience like how I want you in the room to tell people talk to people about um overcoming yeah
That’s a wonderful gift when you can say to people you know yes is my story but I understand understand where you are understand what you’re walk going through that relatedness is Absolut critical how can I relate to you I was you once I’m experiencing what you’re experiencing that’s a great attribute to
Have far better than say this not better qualification don’t mean that but hand in hand is is understanding you know and when I talked about the three themes which we SP about RI to this this one thing which is really important to me is understand someone’s
Experience how close can we get to the experience the person in front of us to be better with them um you know I think of an example now you sometimes students will get to their degree s that what do I do do I go
Traveling for a year or do I get do I take this job and I said to them well talk to me about both and then I’ll tell you which want to do and they start to talk and because they know I’ve done some some traveling in the back in and
They start to talk and I said I know the answer I said how do you know so because I told which I watched your face when you were describing both and your face was lighting up when you spoke about Australia and it was okay when you
Talking about this job so you gave me the answer that relatedness that conversation was not about qualifications it was about an understanding of that person in front of you and if you can have that and you mentioned just now relationships dating coaching psychology it is all about that
Relationship that we build with people um you know and I I do remember the story you know of in one of the books I Wasing about creativity which about the the the director of the film Ghostbusters uh when they looking for a lead character they’d hold these parties
And all the Agents of actors would say to we need to go to the party and um so the director of the film went to the party he didn’t tell anybody he was the director of this film he was just looking and speaking and interacting with people until he found the right
Person because he knew if he told him who he was he wouldn’t get an authentic dialogue he get somebody to be telling so excited to tell them about who they were and then that’s how he found the lead character for um the ghost Masters yeah it’s authentic conversation with somebody some connection something
And you know what I can work with that person so wherever your hand is is a differentiator is the start of a conversation and who knows um me it’s it’s a random example but my sh supporter last year went took my daughter to the cup semifinal went to
Ticket office at Bram Lane and the guy said have you been to any matches the season said we’ve only been to one so I don’t know we can S one because it it’s all about getting points from previous matches I said I it’s a shame because the last time went this the cup
Semifinal when sh woms they played sh United in 19 19 anyway long time ago and um I was just asking way up to the leads and he said I was at the game I remember it we spoke about walked out with two tickets because he you he knew that I
Was that genuine support to wanting two tickets you could see how important was I took my daugh to the cup semifinal against Man City it could tell in the way I was talking to him I wasn’t swinging the lead I was abely just recounting something that he could relate to now
Um the qualifications are important I would never let my daughter be coached by anybody without a qualification hey in the sport he does this pretty hairy and so that’s always the first part because it says to me that I want to do this sport I want to be good at it I
Want to be good coach I want to explore learning learn from people who’ve done the sport long time we do of course but also enrich myself with other things as well and whatever they are you know I’m reminded by the story of um Andy hurry at at Somerset so he was the
Head coach at Somerset when I was playing um I think he’s director of cricket there now and when people tell me about well I I don’t know if I can get to the top because I haven’t played the game at the elite level always use him as a reference point and
He from my knowledge was um a military fitness instructor and had played Cricket but he didn’t play at First Class level now the era in which he coach ended up coaching Somerset was an era of just greats I think I think every year they came second which like Unfortunately they
Didn’t win for themselves but they came second consistently and that’s an insane level to stay and they had but they had England players I mean you’re talking people like Marcus tresk Nick Compton overseas after overseas player coming in the International Players Jos Butler leis Gregory like grown up there the
Overton brothers and these are like unbelievable players and I always just used to think go how is he how is he commanding a room where you’ve got Marcus tresi England Great the there’s nothing he doesn’t know that someone like him can’t that Andy hur’s going to add in and I thought
Yeah what what is it that how’s he going to be able to hold that room and then you would turn up to a game and you would turn up to a game and it’d be 8:30 in the morning you walk into to the to the ground and as you go into the ground
There’s a there’s a gym and their gyms like all glass wall and I kind of know why now but it this all glass wall see in and he is in there pumping iron and he was in serious shape like he has got a work ethic that’s through the roof and
You realized that they they leveled with him at that just his work ethic alone was something that they went okay this guy’s serious this guy is this guy means business and for them that was the elite level of it and I’m my thing I always then say to people and I’d be interested
To know how this lands for you is that I don’t believe in order to get to the very elite level you have to have played at the elite top at that Elite level however if you haven’t played there then there needs to be some other criteria
Around you that is Elite that really is Elite and and we’re talking about the more I guess softer skills that you might have it could be your organization could be your work ethic could be your care and diligence into what you do that has got to be in my opinion Elite in
Order for you to get which undoubtly will happen you will need to get that respect from the room and that comes from athletes when they go this person’s serious this person really cares and and then it almost dissolves away that idea of what they didn’t play at our
Level yeah I mean isn’t it current I mean I wonder how many people new yor and KS playing career yeah I funny enough just did a video on him actually so he played at Mains and like then he just went straight into coaching yeah yeah you
Know I don’t know I don’t know I’m really follow football very much but obviously know him I have no idea he played for he he played at Mains for 11 years and then went straight into coaching he he literally retire finished his playing career uh and went straight
Into coaching and then he took them to the Bundesliga so he he he played he played he played a bit but he didn’t play bundes I don’t think he played Bundesliga very very top level where he eventually then had all his success with Brito dman and then eventually now being at
Liverpool yeah I mean I I I understand that from experience of standing in front of people never having been at the level they’ve been at but what’s been I’ve been able to do is to bring something that they don’t know I bring my knowledge into their world
Which they didn’t know about you know I’m never going to talk to group of professional cyclist about cycling really because me yeah raced yeah it’s okay but I didn’t ride the big races be ridiculous to me even to use that as a conversation starter what I bring to the
Room is my knowledge that I know will land in their world and that has you know fortunately been in this for I think 10 11th year now with those and an understanding of this transition from Ro to sport director or from player to coach you give I understand the skills
That they will need to do that job and they’re not about cycling because I’m not I don’t talk about cycling rugby about the skills we spoke beginning about relationships connection yeah who’s in the room how can I connect with you how do I know that you have taken time to understand me
Beyond what I do that’s a really important code um and so this validation and of of you being to stand in front of that room as you just said is not about playing Cricket it’s not about being the best cyclist it’s about understanding the interconnectedness of of coaching
People and the philosophy that you knit with it you know which is for me is big part around empathy your trust which is critical trust meaning safety safe safe to share things with you know you ask me to do something I know that if I get it wrong
But I won’t have negative consequences in terms of feedback for you so what all of that Blended in is what validates you in front of those people and I before the validation then just comes over time because what happens is that whenn Lose or Draw reing Sunshine whatever you have have it how
You react to those circumstances with those people people continues to validate you with them you uh I’ve got a player next player my local rby Club is currently with the NFL draft like re Summit right uh yeah me my local Club Bas St is is
Huge he spent most of his you know most of the time just and he working getting through his rehab and his exercises and training um you know all of that time I didn’t know he was going to do what he did it was I knew he interested in it but my
Relationship with him was growing around not American football it’s around me just helping him to get fitter reab work on different things he needs to get better at um and so that is something that grows with the people you coach you don’t walk in the room and transforming straight
Away you know and don’t walk in the room and think I better better do it it’s amazing now to capture because you know it doesn’t work like that from my experience yeah so so how do you spoke about this very start your coaching philosophy how and I’ve even obviously
I’ve heard you say coaching is about letting go but how do coaches create their own philosophy if they currently don’t have one so what’s one of the first things we do in course at Uni is we is the modu around coaching philosophy the midst that’s part of a
Module you can start by saying things you know what and what’s important to me what was important to me when I was Na and they’ll list off things like building confidence enjoyment posit being positive trusting um authentic you they might use the word authentic but you know be the be the
Person you are don’t put on a mask like you’re on a stage because you can’t wear all the time whereas you can wear you all the time because that’s who you are and then you say right okay so what what would you like people to say about
You and they write exactly the same thing who was what they valued in a coach so that’s how you start it um and then once you’ve got some Foundation of what’s important to them give them some where you think what would you do now how are you going to
Feed back how will you include everybody in this um and then we we move around different things where give them examples um like noticing noting is really important you mentioned about Mr Shepherd in your classroom there a class of 30 people try where possible to interact with everybody at some point even you
Say hello to somebody it’s about creating your own philosophy on the foundations of behaviors that will guide your decisions so for example um let just give this example about feedback and conversation a local club we spoke about streaming so you now they’ve got this A and B team and that separates friends
Who joined the club together now one’s in a On’s the B team and some the players were told oh you’re now the be te you know you’re not big enough strong enough fast enough and they said to um what would you want to be said to you if you’re in the BT
They said what do you mean well you’ve just told them not big enough strong enough fast enough imagine that to you how would you you want to be told and so we we spoke about that and I said why don’t you have why don’t you say
This we could what what do we need to work on to get you to the first team different conversation because it gives optimism hope aspiration partnership what can we do at least we can try this you not the conversation is about you always being in that B team
And the a team is some distant goal and so when you put people in situations that they experience and when they are faced with giving that experience to somebody else they’re much more understanding it because they’ve gone through it I was told this once I know how it
Felt I really want to make sure I’m the same with somebody else or I never want that to be said to me you know so so it it emerges it emerges from experience it emerges from wanting to learn um emerges through a little bit of self-awareness
From feedback from others if you got a coach mental or just a a critical friend and it and it kind of molds itself into a way of being you don’t have to wake up and think right I’ve got to be positive enthusiastic build confidence success and great
Experiences I don’t wake up with that it it’s part of your DNA there’s just that there’s something that you’ve said there that makes me think about how often coaches are vulnerable and how much power that can have and I was writing down a a question that a friend of mine had just funny
Enough before we jumped on this podcast I was having a conversation with via text and I was explaining a relationship I got going on where the other person has had something really challenging going on in their life and I didn’t know how to navigate it I I was sort of I
Don’t want to force anything on them at the moment because there’s so much going on for them but I also want to talk to them and she said just asked the question like what do you need from me right now and I thought about that then
In a coaching context in in sport and I thought what an amazing question that might be for a coach to have actually said what do you need from me right now and that also requires this level of vulnerability to say well I don’t necessarily know the answer to that
Question right now because I need you to give me a little bit of insight and it also then reminded me of a conversation you had I’d heard you have where where you I think you said um how would you like to learn learn you said how would
You like to learn today and in a classroom and so I think there’s something to be said about coaches being courageous enough to be vulnerable in saying I don’t know right now and I need a little bit of input from you but I’m going to do my best in order to help you
Out and that’s not to say I don’t have all the answers it’s to say that I need this to be a partnership I need to in order to get the best out of you I want to know how you want to work and and vice versa
And I I kind of think back to some of my coaching and think I didn’t really get you you didn’t really get that question you just got right this is how it’s going to happen mold yourself to this environment and arguably there are some times where
You need to do that there are some non-negotiables you got to do you got to mold yourself get involved but that’s not every time it’s not all the time well so lovely to hear hear that because you know what you’ve just said was absolutely for me so
Important what do you need from RE right now sometimes yeah this empathy piece or it because what you just said is very often a question that comes alongside someone who’s had a set now we can’t solve it we can’t cure it we can’t undo it but we can sit with
That person and navigate our way with them around what they need from us and if it just silence if it is distraction just talk about something else tell me about the weather tell me what your family’s doing tell me on a whatever it is that is so important and I can give
You a coaching example from this when a similar students a Tas they um PLS game in the hall once’s blindfolded with a ball with bells in it and they have to roll the ball into a goal where there is a blind a goalkeeper who’s who’s got a a
Blindfold room and I said to them what’s the first thing that you’re going to say to them and they said oh we we told them the rules um told them my name and how you scored I said okay well um what do you think they need and that became the next bit what
They need do was orientation so where am I in relation to the goal and feedback how do I go cuz I can’t see it you have to give me feedback that’s exactly the way that you mentioned it is what do you need from me right now it’s not the
Rules I need you to have some understanding that what’s important to me right now is I don’t know where I am relation with the people so can you just orientate me and then can you give me some feedback on howo and that’s real athlete centered coaching that’s real empathy and
And it’s words that’s it coach Emanuel it’s absolutely what you need for me right now and what you’ve just said there is taking away one things we said earlier about coaching individual they coaching on mass and for me it takes away you know Darwinism I use Darwinism
Quite a lot just survival the fittest what I got here because it you know I toughed it out and others didn’t think well maybe now people would have made it there if spend a little B more time trying to understand what really made them flourish you know it’s uh it’s a book
About um coaching children developing children you know in terms of learning and coaching you have the cactus and the Orchid you know Cactus Will Survive whatever the conditions the Orchid beautiful will flourish you just need to know exactly what to do with it and neither is better than the other they
Just have different conditions how do how do we get coaches to access these parts of them that potentially they may not have done before so if they’ve gone through a qualification they’ll be heavy on the the textbook stuff the really into that where do you usually guide someone that
You think needs to develop this part of of their coaching style philosophy being however you want to describe it where where do you direct them and what do you sort of encourage them to do well one the things is you want to work coach you want to get it better you know
You got you ideally want something you says look I want be better than I am how can you help me can you informally just give me some feedback um I’ve done that you know that’s probably my role than my work I don’t actually deliver a formal qualification I sit and watch coaches
And notice things and give them feedback and they want to get better and even if something I say to them is yeah I didn’t realize I was doing that just happened recently although it’s an ouch moment it’s a good learning moment yeah I did us doing that yeah
Well this you know now and the work I I I’ve done particular within cycling environment with the sport director courses and the diploma course I teach them is if the people who are the coaches of others can experience what you are what you stand for they are more likely to be Advocates
Of it when they coach so I got a group of coaches for me they’re all athletes or Learners so I work with them the way I work with team players soon and then when they experience all this understanding learning understanding connection variety of different things in that coaching process when they
Experien it they go wow I didn’t realize that was so important and then of course they then go out and are become kind of like um Advocates of that experience because they they felt it themselves you know you went to Australia put you in a room
Gra going to Australia couldn’t you I I went there I never thought it’d be as good as it want you know you got go to a Str because this and there but you can’t always deliver something you haven’t experienced that res has resonated with you I don’t mean always
But those have have Rel landed with me you know those conversations you know I think deeply about you know I’ve when I’ve started teaching I remember this struggles with with how I deal with challenging Behavior and then I just remember when I had a student few
Years ago I remember this question and I didn’t know how to say to him I had to think long and hard about it I didn’t want to go in and say you’re doing this I wanted to get better at doing that and I just came this question and I
Said to him I’ve used this before and you conversation that I said to him look it’s taken two weeks to C with this question so here it is when I look at you what do I see and he went messing about it that’s exactly it I’m from there we created a
Great relationship because we just changed how we were I wanted to get better I wanted to engage in that person I wanted to find out how I could work with that individually and better so it is not always in a formal course it comes from experiencing things reading watching learning in the most
Diverse you know environments to get to get better there’s something that I’ve found and it’s it’s almost like a a I I did it it’s an accidental benefit that I’ve P found myself in is the fact that doing this podcast I in the process of early editing it I have
Had to sit through hours of listening to myself and some people I know so many people hate that they absolutely hate it and to me at the start it was horrendous like I just wanted to get through the episode I just wanted to shut myself up
I wanted to move on get it get it done but then I started to get a bit more curious about okay well how can I actually improve the podcast how can I improve what it’s doing why why the podcast that I listen to what do they do
Well what do I like about them what are people saying what are they doing and I’m by no means where I want to be but I am way better than where I was on the first episode of this of this show and it’s through the fact that I look at it
And I go well okay well how can I improve my inflection in my my speech how can I add a story how can I actually shut up when someone’s talking there’s there are guests that you can have on that you realize when you listen to recording back one of the worst things
You can do on a podcast is speak when someone else is speaking and and it creates a horrendous experience but just in that art of staying quiet and and not feeling the need to be saying anything or be heard or be yeah be involved has has improved my ability to sit in
Silence but then that ability has allowed me to create better impact when I give a speech so if I give a speech I know that there’s a a strategy or a a mechanism you can give in public speaking where you leave a pause at the end of something and you let something
Marinate in an uncomfortable few seconds of Silence but it creates power it’s also allowed me to recognize when I speak too quickly like my my thing is to speed up rather than to slow down and it’s to go the other way I have too many things going on but
It’s it’s it’s taught me that and then I went one step further was every time I went and did a coaching session and I and it’s kind of worked in a real favor is that I use it for content for social media to develop my work and my business
But I hope so again use it as a coaching tool I go how did I speak in that session how did I respond to I usually have the camera just facing me so I don’t involve whether it’s kids in the room haven’t got consent things like
That I I would just have it on me so you can hear the questions they ask and then it’s how did I respond to that what was my what did I say did I wait did I was I too quick was I too slow what whatever
It was and you just use it as a a date a point or a a way in going this is how I want to get get better and I would I would question how many coaches are comfortable videoing themselves to then look back on it and and I learned
This whole experience again a very early experience I had which was the professional Cricket Association one year had an opportunity to go and jump on a Dale carigi course two-day course on presentation and they said we got two free spots first person grab it goes up
Bang email replied I’m going and I went to this course and it was it was hilarious you had to do seven talks in two days on nothing you knew about a subject you knew nothing about I think one talk I had to give on a piece of paper and they recorded everything and
Then what they did is they recorded you and they took you to the next room to to dissect everything that had gone through tell you everything you You’ done really well and there was there was a lot of people in the room that had come from corporate life and they were very they
Were directors they were just egos in the room it’s really funny but one guy was so interesting he they were like you’ve got so such interesting stuff to talk about but you’re just not willing to talk about it or get it out there we need to change your style and he’s at
The back of the the guy was teaching Mark who was teaching the class he was at the back of the room he said what what do you love doing he’s like well I enjoy my work I’ve got my family I’ve got some Hobbies like what hobbies have
You got and he’s like well I play bass guitar so okay well give this speech whilst playing the bass guitar and by whilst he’s doing this speech he’s playing this air guitar we’re all clapping we’re like we’re all singing some sort of song that he’s trying to
Sing but it was you looked at him and when he’s completely changed his experience of what he’s he’s told us he’s actually we’ve we’ve resonated with what it was but it was it was the art of being able to be comfortable enough to break out of this mold of something you
Thought you were into something you wanted to be but doing it through actually viewing yourself and seeing yourself and going okay that’s not that’s not someone I would want to be coached by taught by listened I wouldn’t want to listen to that person so yeah I would encourage coaches to to video
Themselves yeah that’s uh that I think you absolutely sung one of the areas in order to get better we are going to have to have some uncomfortable moments of realizing what we are like and watching ourselves unless you’re I’m not sure what the right word would be unless you love watching yourself
On then you’re watching yourself thinking so let’s take a simple example and watch some I did and I was pleased with it when I was there but I watched some video and I thought I spent too long getting the group active Okay it it was uncomfortable I was I was like
Cringing watching it thinking that was me it wasn’t that bad but I had to watch it on my own in a room with no one else I didn’t want everybody else to watch it so those moments of self-awareness are going to come from what I essentially before ouch moments realizing that we
Pause too long we’re grumpy we are um speak too quickly whatever it can be and I not always good as it I know because we we are emotional people we’re going to have you know I’m moving just moved to house so it’s a bit of a challenging
Side but a friend of mine said to me Rich when you when you bring me up make it sound like I’m make sound like I’m pleased to hear from you I said yeah grumpy aren’t I said you’re grumpy now put the phone and ring up again oh
Rich okay you know little things it took that moment of self-awareness and somebody telling me but they told me so I could get better and we’re going to have to have some moment when somebody’s going to say to us look in order to get better you really need to and then the
Sent fish or something just like you’ve said you know how do we come across to others we can only see that by being an audience member of our own show and you know I listen to this podcast um maybe I’ll have those things while I wish I not hesitate been clear um
But when you said about how can coaches be better it is comes from you drove that yourself no one’s told you to go to d k Kiki course and no one told you to listen to yourself on your podcasts you drove that yourself because you want to
Get better so the the internal drive to be the best you can be it’s something that’s not in everybody within coaching some people just coach and that’s what they do but to get better takes us to challenging uncomfortable moments of self-reflection and feedback from others um but they do it with the best
Intentions so you don’t make a bigger mistake on the bigger stage I I have a I I think a part of my philosophy a big part of my coaching philosophy now is that I would never ask someone to do something that I’m not willing to do or
That I wouldn’t do with them and so I have a young lad that I’m coaching at the moment and I’ve been hired to help him with his his mental strength his resilience his confidence and that’s what we’re working on but the mechanism in which I’m doing it is through physical training Cricket
Training yoga yoga meditation we’re using different I’m using all my I’m literally pulling on every lever that I have but we went I I turned up at his house the other day and five minutes before I was turning up I just text him saying put your Runners on I turn up
I’ve got my Runners on I like right we’re going for a quick 4K run so we go for a 4K run uh we then get back to the house I go wait there open up the boot of my car grab a 20 kilo dumbbell give him the 20
Kilo dumbbell I grab the 10 kilo uh vest and we go down to the bottom of his Hill and I go we’re going to Lunge our way up to the top of this hill and he needs the physical training like a part of what we’re trying to do was that but then we
Get to the top he’s daered he’s never done something like that before he definitely won’t look at his his home Hill the same way anymore but I was like what did we learn what did we learn from this and and he was just like not stop even as much as it was
Hurting and and and if you were to I’ve had snc coaches on here if you did to dissect the snc department of it it’s like it’s not a perfectly strategic program whatever but the point being was that he did something that was really challenging he literally stood there and
Went I’m willing to do this I’m I’m I’m in I I’ll do that and then I encouraged him along the way to continue going but he didn’t stop and that for him with the overall goal of what we’re trying to achieve which is build his confidence he
Has now got a receipt in his back pocket for when someone says what have you got to show that you’re confidence why I did this experience like and I got through it I learned how not to stop and so it’s but the big point for me was that I
Wasn’t standing at the top of the hill going keep going lunge do this now I’m not saying everyone’s got jump in the The Trenches if you physically can’t do it but I will never ask someone to do something that I even haven’t tested done it myself experienced myself
Potentially when I was a pro and that that’s a big part of of my philosophy and that that wanting to learn continuously when I see these moments where I mess something up whether it’s on the podcast or want to improve on something I think the way you view it
People get cringy over looking at their mistakes is because they do have that judgmental lens on themselves in the sense that they and I would just AR I would question as to can you just be a bit more Curious so now I have this I weirdly and this does probably sound
Arrogant is that I will watch myself on these podcasts and I will smile at the moments when I get things wrong and I laugh at them and I go what an ID like but that’s a built of my capacity to I want to I want to always take the piss
Out myself cuz and that comes from my history of my condition where I took the I took the mick out of it early on in my life so that if anyone else did it it took the power away from them goes well I already do that so
You’re not you’re not doing anything I’m not used to and I think now I just encourage people it’s the be curious not judgmental the Ted lasso Walt Whitman quote it’s the it’s it’s try to be curious as to okay well okay did that thing but it’s it’s idiosyncratic of me
And it’s a bit it’s a bit strange that I do that but I’m willing to try and get better but I love that bit about me that I’m just curious by trying to get better and that’s the that for me is the whole piece around that c curiosity is
Interesting I’m hav’t used that this semester maybe I was talking a lot about last semester curiosity is key I mean going back to the athlete you’re trying with how much better for him was it better for him that you with him when he did it yeah The caran Killers the fact
You with him and what did you say ear you know that this thing about empathy peace just be with somebody the fact you’re with him this distant figer well we changed we changed the dumbbells and the thing so we both had we did the exact same thing so I made sure that we
Both did equal measure and we could we could mirror that you see the other thing is um just about t army training though when we got ambushed by one of the RO recruits on the brby training day and the guy jumped out the bushes with this
Gun blanks he fired this blanks and he said I Dro drop and give me 200 push-ups I said I stop and I said 200 serious it’s like I know a little bit about exercise I was never going to be able to do 200 so we haggled
Him down to 50 in the end because we could do 50 because he’ picked this arbitary figure up out out the air we’re never going to do so the fact you did that with your athlete is gives you that feedback that you can adjust it because you are with
Him you know what it feels like so you know what he has experienced you know way to lift it stretch it take it back and um going to curiosity piece is you know I I been I’m working with students about they can choose a film documentary
To critique on Sports so we looked at things like sound the river um looked at the Playbook just examples uh I’m interested in what they’re curious about because curiosity is key in learning how could I get better where can I go to get better at what I’m doing um and if you
Get curiosity in in a learner then it’s easy how do you spark curiosity and you know I I didn’t go to it I remember a coaching course years ago invited um actors from a theater to work with coaches because coaches are on stage to get them to feel like what is stage
How do you project your voice to an audience with your mannerisms so they I got a student who stand up comedian he didn’t tell us jokes in class he’s a bit too embarrassed but he I just want to be confident standing in front other people
So I decided to to do this like 15 20 minute slot and stand up comedian so doesn’t matter where we learn the tools of our trade but well let’s I’ll rephrase that don’t close your mind to where you can learn from because you’ll always pick something up
From s somewhere else you know um and that Curiosity you know again the Little Gems that we get I remember going course a long time ago 10 11 years ago and that talk in the afternoon with a lady who worked in hotels and it was a long talk
I have to say um but right of it she just said this we train our receptionist to our hotels in Spain to understand the Journey of the grumpy people who land at the desk and just want to check in and then she then said because they
Start at 6:00 in the morning getting to the airport going through that they got three kids they get on the air blah blah blah then they got to find the high car then they got to find the hotel and the kids are tired everyone grumpy they come to reception desk that’s their Journey
So they grumpy with you you know and is it say with an athlete what’s their Journey like before they come to us if they L at training or maybe they’re like what’s the reason for being late no one likes being late for training you know I don’t think they
Been wrong you gotta be unique I think you got to be a certain type of person to do it consistently and yeah I think then you you not you’re not wanting them in your team but no I I think it’s it’s there’s so much of what we’ve
Spoken about and and as we come towards the end there’s so much what we spoken about that you talk about documentaries there and I have watched have you watched Chasing the Sun have you watched chasing I encourage you to watch that that that was a really I love that and
They’re gonna have chasing the sun too so it followed Rassy arasmus um on the 2019 World Cup and then they’re going to have chasing the sun too for the for the last World Cup 2023 but you got such a beautiful insight into how they’ve done what
They’ve done I think the best way I could describe it is and I’ve had James Kerr on the podcast of what he did with Legacy they they that’s a film they basically put that into film in this scenario and then another one that I watched recently was
Whistleblowers and that yeah yeah and it was really interesting one thing that came out of that for me was these referees of the the professionalism in which they showed so kind of goes back to kind of going on to following on from what I was saying where I would never
Ask a someone I’m working with to do something I haven’t done is that they they’re H they’re trying to hold such a high standard but they’re treating themselves like an elite athlete they are purely treating themselves like an elite athlete and it’s it’s like if I want to be in this Elite environment
I’ve got to be thinking like these guys and that’s where they gain the respect and I have no doubt off the back of that documentary just the Insight that they got through what they face on a social media the The Barrage of abuse they get I have no doubt that there’ll be players
That will respect them so much more knowing what they actually do behind closed doors and how much work goes into what they’re doing on field and obviously I i’ think referees in rugby are the Pinnacle officials that we can we have at the moment in sport and sorry
To any officials that might be listening but but um I think the the main thing that I I think of with with this sort of stuff where you’ve got all these documentaries you have got quite literally playbooks in front of you and yet there is some form of
Barrier that many coaches find and and I’ve been to different environments and it’s it’s so interesting that every experience every room you go into is so totally unique is full of different characters so you can’t place what the All Blacks have done into any other environment because you don’t have
The culture you don’t have the underpinnings of that but there are some there are some elements that we’ve spoken about today the humanistic elements that if you are brave enough to run with them I think they they will work in many environments there’s just it doesn’t matter what the culture is it
Doesn’t matter what the sport is they will just work but for some reason I there’s a panic that goes on with people and they either revert to the textbook they revert to what they’ve known before and they they go away from this authentic version of their coaching that
They’re not willing to engage in and that for me is always the challenge that I I try to put forward to coaches is be like be the coach you wish you could have you could have had um and the one you want to be and trust your instincts I
Think you know sometimes our intuition and instinct is it is over is overridden by the feeling what we think is others is the right thing rather than deeply know is it want to do you know what’s your instinct telling you and and that’s when with experience your intuition
Becomes stronger because you have seen so many different things you know you’ve said the wrong thing at some time you’ve learned from that you’ve done the right thing at the right time you learned from that you watched somebody and all of those experiences never wasted long as
You learn from them you know you’re right it you know it’s don’t take the old blacks culture into English rby don’t work what can I learn from you that would sit well with me and all those environments everything you watch one thing that comes in is always about
People you watch those playbooks those fils I don’t think I’ve learned anything tactical about any of them you know because they’re just to blur if they are tactical well they’ll take it from the old blacks and put it into local rep Club because it’s too much but what
Could you take that could sit with where you’re at so all those things are important and then and I will watch chasing the S I do hope there’s not a chasing the S three because that means England wouldn’t win the next World Cup but you know yeah
We’ll hope but yeah it it’s and this is what I’ve asked the group to do said look watchever whatever you watch learn something from that to be able to bring back I don’t if you watch free solo yes yeah yeah in that there’s so much I I look took something from it and
I use it um Alex hon talks about in that where he Maps out the roots so strategically and he visualizes them and he runs them through his mind so much that he said I have such confidence about doing it that I would turn to eight I could have 880,000 people behind
Me and I would just turn around to them and say watch this and then climb and I use that Mantra now I use that mantra for myself so if I’m giving a talk it’s a part of my pre-t talk process that I have I have a quick breathing technique
That I do I say um I have a I have one about saying how lucky people are to have me so that I don’t feel fearful of going on so it’s kind of again a bit of a confidence booster and then I say watch this and
That reminds me of all the practice that I’ve put in to deliver that talk and it came from that well to on I should hold that and I should tell them that when I see them the next Friday you’ve talk me about that learning from that film there’s
Always something you get you know this informal formal learn what I learn from around me that I’ve picked up alongside what is expected of me in this role some people trivialize it though sadly I think some people trivialize it that’s so for the England so for the Chasing the Sun I’ve seen
England rugby pundits sort of sweep it under the carpet and go oh yeah got Chase in the Sun and I go well it worked like there’s something in it and we had building Jerusalem that was a documentary after the work up the we so you know I mean it’s their story and if
It works for them and it’s their story then and who are we to criticize it you know yeah it’s fascinating like I said you always get one thing from it and I do remember I I don’t want to say too much I may get this wrong but I do
Remember that there was some on the shirts the sou African players each player I think maybe when they played France I think they had the of all their family members they had they had images of family members on um on each one it’s a famous it’s a viral clip that came
From it of Rassy arasmus talking about that and him talking about um uh maaz Alman pimpy and he was talking about his jersey and C kisi has spoken about it quite a lot that they’re all in the team and everyone’s got faces is on the numbers and it’s all of their
Family members people that have been in the journey and mimpi only had himself on his shirt on his on his number and they said what’s going on there and you’re all arrogant why have you got that he said no I had no one my family’s dead my mom’s dead my dad’s dead my
Brothers sisters they’re gone like I don’t have anyone and it like apparently the whole room just boom hit them but that galvanized them it it brought them together but it was all again if you watch the documentary it’s just brilliant how Erasmus does it and it’s done through caring it’s done there was
Again it was so much to do with the story of how they could connect to the wider culture of South Africa what was going on at home used the sport almost like an Invictus type story and they they were doing it in their own way and and it’s it was built off these
Meetings that they had but the meetings were yes they were strategic and there would have been strategic meetings done on of course but there these other meetings that go on or parts of the meetings that happen where the emotion and the the speeches come out and it’s
The people talking and there is just so much to be said about that part of it um having making all of the work that you’re doing have this huge purpose and meaning and then they’d run through literally brick walls obviously they’re huge athlet they’re playing a star of rugby that’s
Verocious but they’re doing it backed with quite literally an entire nation so it’s incredible and there is in those jerseys everything about rugby but nothing about rugby everything about the story your story your tattoo right back to the beginning you know and and and that if you know who not learn from that
Everybody has a story no people in the room have the same story how can you harness that to advantage of the team yeah and I guarantee now that the team will well if another team tries to copy that and the authenticity and that is not theirs not they don’t own it you
Know that’s the beauty of the All Blacks the authenticity of the All Blacks is is their culture unique to them we can glean bits from it to establish your own uh you know i’ just been working with this team Before Christmas about culture and we didn’t want to have anybody else’s we
Went to embodied who we were so we created it and it’s great to see already the defens is made you know um because we owned it we built it Rec created it um but that story is again right back to the beginning about do we understand
That people they in front of do really understand where they’ve come from I mean I can’t imagine the reaction when when you told that story I mean that’s was it’s just taking Everybody by surprise you know it’s and then how do you harness how do you well it probably
Just some stuck self-driven isn’t it but but that one story who wouldn’t want to go out the changing there and work for that person and that person to work for but then you know so yeah yeah look we’ve been going for a while and um as we wrap up I usually ask
Two things of people that on the show so is there anything that you are listening to reading watching at the moment that’s inspired you uh that you’d be recom you’d recommend to people uh book called How we learned by Nick shlon Jones that’s about learning remember earlier was how we learned
How we learn added that’s I’m watching and uh I’m watch south of the river ship out PR ship footballers within the C London those are two things at the moment which I’m I’m one is kind of LIC release just to watch and learn authentic storytelling behind players
Journeys and then book about how we learned has already given me so already great themes when I work with coaches and how I teach amazing and then the last bit is the last bit is based around how uh so the last question that I ask people is is there anything from today’s
Conversation that you would provide a challenge to the listeners to take forward we spoke about an what’s your end we spoke about curiosity the end I think is critical critical word word in learning I would say go and watch something different that you don’t coach and what
Can you learn from it you know I spending my days not at the side of rby pitches as a coach now I’m at a downhill mountain bik race wow that’s pretty cool funk environment to be the in the start line fist pump each other so great Rivals hug each other and
Fist pump each other at the beginning share stuff on Instagram they’re they’re each other’s fans that’s what I got from that so put yourself in go to a different setting s and just watch brilliant I love that look for people that are listening uh that might want to reach out especially anyone
Coaching that might have questions following up from this episode where’s the best place for for for us to send them to get in touch yeah um like you can contact me on Twitter topr or Instagram is two Professor which is to as in twwo how they contact me at the
University so richard. Cham winchester. ac.uk and I’m happy to share some of the things I’ve have helped me a lot and ideas and questions you’ve got you know um more than happy to share some of the things I’ve touched upon today and if they want to I Wars off out to come and
Sit in a session that we do um then then more wel going to come down to University sitting with the so be delighted to have them and um yeah I did have a somebody who pretended to be a student joining the course and they were and they just come up from the Olympics
With a silver medal that was quite cool St realize that you don’t have to be that person to come to lecture you’re welome to come as a guest like the silver medal W around the neck didn’t give it away yeah they didn’t bring it on they just like they just uh yeah they
Revealed it right at the end so it’s quite a funny story but anyway that’s brilliant look Richard thank you so much for your time this has been an amazing conversation the time’s flown by so when when an episode runs like that you know it’s been a good one so I really
Appreciate you coming on well listen Louis it’s too I’ve been delighted to be invited it’s nice to meet you and thank you very much for really this opportunity and it’s been great conversation thank you very much indeed