Debate Night in Dundee – 28.2.24

Debate Night in Dundee – 28.2.24

Hosted by Stephen Jardine

SNP MSP Michelle Thomson
SLAB MSP Michael Marra
Tory MSP Douglas Lumsden
Entrepreneur Cally Russell
Author Emma Christie

ps – The best bits from 43.50

10 years ago Dundee was the yes capital of Scotland with more people here voting for Independence than in any other Scottish local Authority but a decade on what now matters most to people in Scotland’s fourth largest city let’s find out welcome to debate night debate night is the only show in Scotland that

Gives you the chance to put your questions to the people in power answering them on our panel this evening entrepreneur and businessman cie Russell Cali is a graduate of dundy University and the co-founder of unfolded a company which aims to create zero waste fashion calies the only person to appeared on

The BBC’s Dragon Den twice and turned down Investments on both occasions Scottish conservative MSP for Northeast Scotland and party spokesperson for Net Zero Energy and transport Douglas lumon MSP Douglas was a former co-leader of Aberdine city council and spent over 20 years working in it before entering

Politics also with us tonight from the SNP Michelle Thompson MP previously an MP and former spokesperson for business Innovation and skills Michelle started her career as a professional musician she then worked for over 20 years in companies including RBS and standard life before entering politics almost 10

Years ago Micha om Mara is the Scottish labor MSP for Northeast Scotland and the party spokesperson for finance born in Dundee he previously worked at the city’s University Michael joined the labor party as a teenager and was picked as one to watch at the recent Scottish politician of the Year Awards and

Finally author Emma Christie born in kumnick Emma previously worked as a journalist at the press and journal after leaving she became a celebrated crime writer with her debut novel being shortlisted for the melani prize for Scottish crime book of the year and Scottish crime debut of the year please

Welcome them all to debate Night And of course welcome also to our studio audience here in Dundee it’s great to be back with you again and you can join in the discussion from home BBC DN is the hashtag you need to debate along with us on social media give us a follow as well

At BBC debate night and our podcast will be available for you to download straight after the show we’ve got a lot to get through tonight so let’s go to our first question which comes from Linda gam Linda good evening given the alleged missed opportunity to apprehend Emma Caldwell’s

Killer can the public have confidence in police investigative procedures Linda thank you this is an absolutely Dreadful case police Scotland have apologized for failings in the original inquiry uh into the killing of Emma cwell her killer was jailed today for 36 years that’s the second longest sentence ever handed down

By a Scottish court now Emma’s family have said she was failed due to a toxic culture of misogyny and Corruption Michelle Thompson the first thing I would say is that H I can only extend my heartfelt sorrow to the family of Emma Caldwell who today will have got

Some some relief from a terrible situation where I know they fought for for years and years because she was a beautiful bright vibrant young woman and to have her life taken away in such tragic Circ ances I can only put my sympathy on the record absolutely Dreadful in terms of your question can

We have confidence now I agree with the family clearly there was misogyny at play clearly she was not given the investigation she should have got because of her circumstances completely unacceptable her life was worth very much indeed it was worth a great deal however can we of confidence yes I think

We can have confidence we look back it was 19 years ago today I myself I remember as a young woman being in the receiving end of a great deal of misogyny blockers in my career and so on and I would like to think that the world has changed that police Scotland

Although it was of course Strath Clyde before that has changed as well so yes I do have confidence and thank goodness have come straight out today and said they apologize and I know the be internal investigations then that can only be the right thing is that enough

Does there need to be more than an internal investigation into this um I think we should allow the internal investigation to do what it needs to do in the interim the question perhaps is are there other C cases such as this where it was the same underlying

Misogyny at play but at the moment and I think today it’s important we recognize that due to the fight of the family and also with the journalist I think was it Samantha s Pauling Pauling yes all credit to Heart in 2015 conducted the interview with Ian Packard and put the

The the steps in motion to arrive where we are today so I think today we should be extending our sympathy to the family there’s clearly questions to be asked of uh police Scotland but I do have confidence in what they do they’re very robust and thorough but nobody could

Take away from what a terrible situation for the family indeed indeed let me hear from the audience in this uh lady in the back row I was just curious if it’s found that obviously they’ve admitted there was failings and if it’s found that the police officer who was at the

Lead of the investigation who is now a KN or has been kned should he hand back his honor okay thank you let me just hear from a few more people in the audience man in the glasses there yes um would you say that like the we’ve lost

Trust in the police due to the lack of community policing I mean police Scotland said that they were going to stop investigating minor crimes that have no investigative leads does this affect the lack of like public um like that was another story this week based on a pilot project in aberin Shire

Actually and gentleman just behind you in the blue sweater as well do you think it’s right though that it’s an internal inquiry the police investigating the police surely it should be an external to investigate Emma Christie what do you think police investigating the police this case is that appropriate I think

The public needs to know what’s going on and I think um any investigation that is undertaken we need to the public needs to know exactly what’s been happening and and how what steps are being taken to make sure it doesn’t happen again and I think touching on what the gentleman

Said about the the minor crimes issue as well you know that the police are saying they could potentially stop investigating minor crimes you know I think if that’s going to happen we need to know that the major crimes are going to be dealt with much more efficiently I

Don’t think you can take away from the minor ones without absolutely ensuring that the major ones are taken care of and for that we need answers and we need to know what’s happening behind the scenes gentlemen on the third row yes don’t you go yeah um just touching on

The investigation or the investigation uh just watching catching a copper on Channel 4 uh a couple of weeks clearly showed that internal investigations didn’t work and in fact the iopc wasn’t fit for purpose so I wonder again if there’s going to be another alternative body that might

Investigate that known at the iopc for example un fit for purpose I I know we’ve got serving police officers in the audience this evening so I’d love to hear your reactions to this mike omara um can we have confidence in the police on the basis of this this case there

Were 32 other charges against this man more than 20 other women involved when he was on the loose and the second longest sentence ever handed down by a Scottish Court I believe uh to to him today and thank God that that family have got some some justice At Last I

Think I read today that it was Emma’s father’s dying wish he said to her mother on his deathbed you know please get Justice for our daughter um so thank goodness that that that has come to them so I think on on this issue about the confidence in in the in the police

Clearly I think I think there’s going to be more to come on this in the coming days thank God in this as well for an investigative press I have to say that compliments to that journalist but actually journalists that can pursue these issues over many years and still

Having some of that capacity left in in our journalism in Scotland makes a huge difference um so I think that there will be more to come in terms of from the press in the coming days I think that we I think the questions that are asked about the um the balance and what’s

Important in this is about trust and the public having trust in that investigation and feeling that they’re hearing the answers that are right and proper I would say that too often at the moment we’re seeing these issues come up and I would draw the comparison to

Whether it be the elgl inquiry in Dundee for um people who have been butchered at the hands of this Ro Rogue surgeon the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital scandal in Glasgow and the Horizon Scandal three very recent issues that we’ve talked about in Parliament but we’ve talked about in in in cafes and

Into our families that this is about institutions that are not accountable and that are not serving the public appropriately and too often in Scotland I think still there are people who are prejudiced against and Emma has found herself in one of those categories as somebody who has been vulnerable and has been uh

Denied Justice is police not accountable is that what you say I I think in this case it’s clearly not being accountable enough and we have to ask we have to ask questions we have to make sure that the public can have trust has to be a robust investigation if that requires external

Help in that then that should be applied okay okay lady in the very back row yes so yes I am that serving police officer I was in police for 30 years and I investigate serious crimes and I have to say from this time I joined police to

The time I left 30 years absolutely chalk and cheese they did learn they do investigations they you do see people investigating better and learning from mistakes so to compare what has happened 20 years ago to what happens now I think is comp completely unfair and that that

Question that was asked by Linda Can the police have confidence in police can the public have confidence in police investigative procedures you would say absolutely yes because constantly they’re looking at every inquiry to see where changes can be made where we can make improvements and it absolutely does happen on every investigation Douglas

Lumon yeah I think as a as a dad I can’t imagine the you know what that family have gone through over um all these years it is good to hear that the the police service has changed but for me that’s a good reason to have a a full

Public inquiry to make sure that lessons have been learned and to make sure that things like what we’ve witnessed today could never happen again so what do you think of the lessons that we can learn from this because the allegation from the family is misogyny and Corruption

Well I think that’s why we need a full investigation to see if that’s still endemic within police Scotland hopefully what we’ve heard from the the audience that’s no longer the case but let’s you know we can’t have a police mark on their own homework let’s have a full

Inquiry so we can actually see for ourselves that that is no longer the case Okay uh gentleman in the black talk there yes don’t you go I think it’s prime example and a poli Scotland having a total disregard for victims and their families um within certain parts of

Society in Scotland um I think if them had been somebody more high profile or had done um a certain um job and things like that um been a bit more High standing in within Society I think the investigation and the crime would have been dealt with completely different um

Thank you lady in the glass is down here yeah I think um you know I agree with most of what’s been said tonight but I do feel that maybe it’s time to look at police Scotland in a different light and maybe introduce more Regional situations rather than the whole of police being

Police Scotland because this is where things can get missed and there C things that will go on in one region and not in another that police may not have the full hold on so I think that it’s possible to start looking at a different way of policing again I mean I know

We’ve not long made it police Scotland but I do feel that that’s kind of lost its way a little bit on the ground you know for ordinary folks not being accessible not being available and I really do think that we need to start thinking more regionally again more

Distant was more distant now KY Russell the question is can the public have confidence in police investigative procedures terrible case this I think it’s it’s truly horrible and I can’t imagine what that family’s gone through for that period of time I don’t think any of us in this room can imagine what

They’ve gone through for that as well and I hope no one ever has to go through that ever again because of failings from you know individuals in that process I think it’s right and proper there is a a thorough investigation and investigation that is open whether that is internal or

External I am not the expert on that and will not you know suggest which way should be go for it but it needs to be open it needs to be clear to everyone there was a woman at the back there at the start who said about taking away a

Knighthood sort thing I I didn’t know that fact but if that’s the case then 100% that should be taken away I think so often people can hide behind titles and privilege and that that cannot be thank you um your views on everything you hear tonight the hashtag is BBC DN

On social media let’s go to our second question of the night which comes from rose langlands rose good evening with the B on the rise particularly l in children is it not time we looked at expecting parents to take educational responsibility rather than potential proposed cure of banning meal deals in

Supermarkets thank you Rose this is uh a public consultation launched today by the Scottish government on potentially introducing restrictions on Supermarket price promotions for products that are high fat salt and sugar uh ready meals for instance buy one get one fore that kind of thing Micha Mara yeah I think

That there is a balance to be struck absolutely between um making sure that parents are helping to give as as healthy a diet as they can to their children um unfortunately for many families that’s just not possible because the unhealthy foods are the cheapest foods and when people are not

Able to actually afford those foods and there’s many places in Dundee which essentially are food deserts where you can’t actually get healthy food within a reasonable uh walking distance of where you would want to go so the stuff that is promoted in uh whether it be the local supermarkets otherwise and and

Takeaways is is actually the cheapest stuff it’s high calorific value and it’s more accessible to people so we do have to think about the socioeconomic side of this about the restrictions that that people uh people have it’s right for the government to inter be I think it’s it’s absolutely right that the government

Looks at this um and we have to think about how how that’s done I think we’ve got a big problem in our food system generally I have to say in terms of the way that these products are the ones that are pushed to the front U of big

Food businesses uh Al um and internationally and we have to think about what we can do to make cheaper uh healthier food available to more people part of that is about education about cooking it’s about actually eating with our families um you know I don’t really

Want to be in the position I’m not generally in favor of banning things or getting into those situations U but and you know people who want to sit down at the weekend have a bottle of wine with a ready meal that’s there I can understand that the challenge though in this is to

Make sure that they have always the cheapest option in times when bills are so incredibly High isn’t the least healthy option for people and we need to actually work with supermarkets and retailers to do what we can to make that happen lumon yeah I was I was just going

To say that food’s only part of it you know exercise is another important thing and when we when we have um you know local councils been strapped for cash and we see swimming pools closing we see um you know football pitches closing then that’s a big part of it as well I

Remember being a kid you know I was probably out playing all the time and always always active but that’s more and more difficult for our for our youngsters now so yes look at food but let’s look at getting them active as well and see what facilities there are

For people to do that uh Rose you asked the question what do you think of the repes so far well I was a PE teacher and I do agree that we really need to encourage the children to get out and play but I also disagree that all healthy food is more expensive because

There’s lots of things that are ready meals and they’re way more expensive than buying nice vegetables and making soup and all sorts of other recipes and I do think it comes down to laziness sometimes I mean there are whole parts of the city where you just can’t get

Access or ready access to healthy foods in terms of out soup and vegetabl do yeah uh have vegetables on special offer for which for which you have to have access to a car to get to the public transport and dundy is so poor you can’t get a bus almost anywhere frankly to get

To the supermarkets unless it’s in walking distance I think I think that I would say that on the balance in terms of weight loss and obesity 80% of that sits with food rather than around about the 20% that sits with exercise if you’re putting the wrong kind of fuel

Into your body it’s going heavy saturated fats heavy salts it’s incredibly difficult to exercise that off you’re right we have to get more activity but we have to deal with that food ISS L speak 23ds of Scots overweight 20% of Scottish Children at Risk of obesity man in the blue and

White strip shut yes yeah I was saying that museums across the city we could get them for free with a p to go into these um institutions and the museums and have the swimming pools and gyms open free for younger ages that could go in and

Exercise the glass is there yes I feel as though we should be supporting the people that are using the food banks first before we are judging them on what they’re actually eating check it’s easy it’s easy to put the oldest on the individual but um we’re marketed all these things are

Through social media through YouTube adverts we’re constantly marketed this junk food recent a lot of recent Studies have shown that junk Foods actually extremely like Ultra processed foods are extremely addictive there’s an addictive quality once you get in that cycle it’s so hard to break it it’s so easy just to

Go kind of come for eat um rather than go and do an exercise and I think that’s a big part of the issue thank you thank you I’ll come back to just a second Michelle Thompson what do you think on this how much intervention should there be from government the appropriate

Amount and hence the consultation I mean it’s asking the question because I think everything that the the audience has brought out this evening they’re all excellent points we recognize that various stakeholder groups in our society have a role parents educational establishments all the people that help shape people’s lives we can’t be too

Heavy-handed because people have freedom of choice but we also are quite aware that some of these foods are very very bad for us and as a gentleman pointed out H with a red check shirt they’re addictive as well so I think it’s a good thing that the Scottish government is

Consulting on this where do you sit it where do you sit on it do you think we need restrictions uh I’m weary about restrictions but at the same time we have a Health crisis and particularly with with young people that we would like to do something about which is why

I said the appropriate balance so it’s a sensible thing to do to consult ask people the question because we know we need to do something about that we but we also know it’s a complex problem to fix it’s not just in Scotland it’s across the whole Western World this is

Really difficult and there’s a whole variety of factors at play thank you uh man on the end here down here yeah where you go shouldn’t there be a ban on um the junk food uh before a certain time so that it can help help us out to eat a bit

Healthier what do you think pal what advertising junk food or eating junk food on on the TV I mean on the TV on the TV what we can we can talk about that in just a second man in the blue shirt and the jacket down here yes you

Go um I worry sometimes about consultations because inevitably people on either ends of the spectrum uh have the loudest voices in these situations but I have to say to to Michael I I don’t know um the last time you used buses in donde I I could criticize dundy

City council for a lot but the bus service in dundy right across the city I think is excellent and gets people around very easily it’s the most it’s the most expensive bus service in Scotland the the mile along the Path Road is the most expensive mile that you

Could take anywhere in Scotland um the the numbers have collapsed postco a real difficulty and many routs have been taken off I have toly disagree I used the buses um at least five six times a week um in dundy um and I think it’s a service that’s declined fascinating as

Dunde buses are let’s TR and stick with obesity at the moment lady on the end there yes yep what I would say in terms of the effects Co probably played a lot in the last couple of years students were inside young people were inside and we didn’t really go out that much yes

There was the Casual walk here and there but I feel like that had a major impact in terms of community buildings and exercising together and you know dealing with health all together I feel like that play made a massive um impact in how we go about our day-to-day lives in

Terms of how we look at food in terms of how we look at different marketing from our phones the different social media platforms and all of that used it against us I would say but what do you think is the way forward to get people more into these Community spaces to

Exercise together to encourage Health all together oh good question Callie Russ yeah it’s a really good question I think what we’re actually talking about here is a starting place is a very unfair fight whereas on one side of it junk food companies the advertising the promotion that goes into these things is

A very easy way to attract people into them the example I would give is is the prime drink last year where you had KSI and Logan Paul where they kids are repping scores apart looking for this drink I don’t love the idea of kind of like saying we can’t do something but

We’re in a situation where clearly the status quo isn’t working so I think it’s very fair and and right for us to talk about other ways of doing things because if we continue down this path that will continue it will get worse and it’ll get worse and our health will get worse what

Do I actually think the answer is I think the answer is a mix of everything that we’re talking about here I think it’s answer about us educating young people at a much earlier age of the dangers of these Foods I think the answer is how do we get them to go out

And be active and engage in different ways I’ll be really honest Playstation Xbox these things that is hard to compete with if you’re a local community center no matter what you do but all of us have a role to play in that of showing people different ways I play

Football twice a week is the best thing that I can do for my mental health and my physical health okay that kind of comes through to it we need to encourage that behavior and I think as Society that’s up to all of us it’s not up to

Just government it’s not up just the politicians it’s not up to people just sitting on a panel it’s up to all of us to have those interactions and show people there’s different ways of doing that that’s not to lecture but that’s just to encourage right let’s find out

What the audience think man on the front row I think you’ve got linked the cost of living crisis to this as well um I know you mentioned about the fruit and veggies generally cheaper than the the ready meals but if you’re struggling to pay your gas or electricity bill you

Might you might have no choice but to take the the uh ready meals because they’re quicker to cook and convenient like I said the like I said just with regards to the cost of living crisis and the energy bills I think that’s a main thing that hasn’t really been thought of

In this so far thank you thank you and man on the front row with a blue sweater um I think we’re making a good point that the um rals are generally cheaper than eating more healthily but if we ban that and restrict that water people on lower

Income supposed to eat you know because if we restrict it then they don’t have access to foods that are affordable for them is is the consultation not though just about meal deals I know we’re talking a lot about ready meals and I think that’s a very different thing and

I think it’s well worth pointing out the difference between that the consultation is on on fizzy drinks in particular being coupled with meal deals and and that same sort of piece that kind of comes through to I think ready meals have a very important place in society

You cost point that you made there is is absolutely vital that has to be taken into account specifically high fat exactly I think that’s the really important part of this that we can just sometimes get dragged away from right so so when it comes to regulation Emma

Where do you sit in this whether it be regulating advertising when they can be shown these these Foods or how they are sold in supermarkets how much should it be individual choice and how much do we need regulation I think it’s a hugely complex issue and I think these headline

Grabbers you know we’re going to do this we’re going to do that we’re going to ban meal deals I think it’s a a sticky plaster over a massive problem and I think it makes it look as if we are doing something when actually the the core H problems are not being addressed

If we want people to be healthier we need to stop shutting swimming pools we need to keep sports facilities open and and I know you commented that you know you said I think 80% is is the food we eat and 20% is exercise I’d like to know where you got that statistic from

Because I think it is it’s it’s all it’s a it’s a package it needs to come together and I think in Scotland we have culturally a lot to learn you know I spend a lot of the Year living in Spain and I I find it much easier to be

Healthy in Spain than when I come back to Scotland I’ve been home for a month at the moment H and it is difficult to if I’m in a hurry to try and find a healthy snack a healthy meal and it’s you know spending the same money in

Spain I can get it very easily and I think think it’s there’s so many different levels I think schools need to have healthier meals and better education and I really think that it’s very easy to demonize obese people it’s very easy to demonize the parents of obese children and I think you know

Demonizing and blaming is not going to get us any further forward we need to look at the culture look at the education and take steps into it thank you uh your views on that from home we’d love to hear from you hash is BBC DN and social media we’re in dunde

Tonight next week we’re going to be in iness the week after that we will be in dumre with debate night so if you’d like to come along and be part of the audience for any of those shows there’s the address on your screen just click on

The link and we’d love to see you there let’s go to our third question of the night which comes from Gary Jordan Gary good evening hello um audit Scotland have said this week that a significant service transformation is required to ensure the financial stability of Scotland’s Health Service what reforms

Would you suggest to save on the current costs of our NHS without compromising on patient safety and further driving up patient waiting times thank you Gary uh BMA Scotland called this report from audit Scotland staggeringly Bleak uh no overall vision for the future of the NHS and unable to meet growing demand said

Audit Scotland Michelle Thompson I think it’s a great question I think we all recognize that there’s significant challenges with the NHS the NHS in Scotland the NHS and there rest of the UK we know that there’s been increasing demands over a long period of time uh we

Also know that Neil gray who’s a new cabinet secretary in post is going to come forward with a plan for that and he’s he’s a he’s a very good uh cabinet secretary and I’m confident he’ll do that what should that be he says he’s going to give us his vision what would

Do you say should be well for a start I don’t think that we should have so many Health boards for example we’ve got lots and lots of layers of management we need people people on the front line we need more people on the front line we need

Less managers we need more use of technology for example now that’s expensive to implement but Tech is so important and it should be used much more extensively in the NHS but it will take Brave bold decisions and we also have a role so for example the the chair

Of the Scottish BMA said we need to have a national conversation he’s absolutely right we all need to have a national conversation a sensible conversation ation across political parties about what can we do to still provide a very good service we all value it so much but recognize some of the significant

Constraints the fiscal constraints that the Scottish government has H we are very very real and we’ve talked to them a lot during the the Scottish budget but we’ve got to have sensible conversations about what we do does that mean be sure that that the that the NHS won’t be able

To do everything moving forward in Scot I would say so I think we need to look at that when we say do everything we’ve got a clear priority call about what we value most what needs to be tackled most speedily and maybe arguably there are some things that those of us who are

Able to do so might be willing to pay for but I make a clear distinction about the people who are not able to and there’s certain types of things that absolutely regardless of where you fit need to be tackled and they the really difficult H Health ones but we need to

Look at this properly it’s a big big Challenge and to say you know for any political party to say oh this is an SNP problem this isn’t an SNP problem this is a Scottish problem in the Scottish NHS it’s a big problem elsewhere in the

UK as well with our NHS it’s a big problem it’s a big problem in England it’s the big problem Wales as well man of the glasses down in the front Road yes H my first job was at the NHS in 2002 and the buzzword then were agenda

For change but it just sounds like the same inefficiencies are there still and the S&P have been inire for a long time now why should we listening to you now uh I can I’ll come back to Mich let me get some more views man of the great

Talk yeah I think I think the the thing that doesn’t get talked about is the fact that there’s been a complete shift in over the last 20 30 years from from a society where taxation was a decent level to fund proper Public Services I work in public service work in local

Government I’ve seen it over the Tas even though I’ve worked in here for 30 odd years I’ve seen cut after cut after cut in funding and funding levels and pay going down etc etc the Health Service is just the same and we see tinkering and changing and stuff like

That to make it all try and cost less yes obviously there’s advancements in in medical science and in it Etc that can make things work more efficiently but the bottom line is we are underfunding these Services we’re not prior prioritizing us a society we need to change the whole tax suain system to

Back back to a a situation where people are paying sufficient taxes to fund decent services that can look after people and that’s going down the tube rapidly and we need to turn that around so on that should people be prepared to pay more to fund the NHS to get the

Service required moving forward with an aging population Michael man well when the parliament was established back in uh in 1999 in the first few years of that up until 2007 we proportionately spent significantly more of our budget on health than we did in the rest of the

The UK and part of that’s because of the long-term Legacy of poor health in this country we knew that we were at those times called the sick man of Europe in terms of the our health record that’s disappeared so the S&P have brought our health spending down to the same level

As the rest of the UK so that Gap that was there we were strategically investing and trying to deal with some of these issues and that has disappeared completely we now have a situation where we have one in seven people in Scotland on a waiting list and we’re sitting here

Asking questions about whether people should have to pay the NHS is an idea that will exist for as long as there are people who are prepared to fight for it and that is a community health-based system is based on need is based on the common Insurance of all of us as a

Community that we care for each other in that way and that’s what the NHS represents um and I think we should fight for it frankly so this is about more money it’s not about reform so we have to do both we have to reform the

Way it’s worked part of the we get into the health economics of this we have a collapse in the amount of money that’s spent on technology that’s a a point I agree with Michelle on that they have we see that across the UK because other countries have continued to invest

Capital in their in their technology and the way we’ve got a hospital in dunde now over 50 years old in nine Wells which is creaking at the edges which can actually provide the kind of Modern Health Care that we need in this country we have to get back to the point where

We’re investing in it strategically rather than cutting it and the the misery that people are finding themselves in dayto day it has mental health impacts it has people living in chronic pain it also means that we’ve got an economy that’s suffering as a result of it and NHS is key to all of

This and we have to save it okay uh Gary you asked the question you used to work in the NHS didn’t you yes I was an any staff nurse and I’ve moved into education um I’ll be quite interested to see what Neil gy has to say about the

Vision because the last um nursing Vision was the 2030 Vision which was published in 2017 since then there’s been huge amounts of transformation um we’ve went from 43,000 whole time equivalent nurses to 64,000 um we’ve got got nurses in more advanced roles so you’re now seeing more advanced nurse practitioners Advanced

Care practitioners they’re taking on these complex roles that we can’t fill with doctors who are waiting for p restoration um where do we stop I mean I I’m now in nursing lecturer and we’ve increased the the student nursing placements year on year it’s the third year in a row where we’re not recruiting

As many as we did the year before so these spaces aren’t being filled where do we stop do we just keep hiring people into these roles to the point where we’re just completely collaps kie Russ so many pressures out there uh the one thing we do have is technology growing

At an incredible Pace within the NHS is that the best hope for the future I think a lot of times people say technology will save us and they just say they word technology and behind that you actually have to think well what is there actually there s think like it’s

All very easy to say we can become more efficient if we use more Technologies we do x y and Zed but what are these Technologies can they be implemented safely I think there’s two things on this and listening to everyone first I’m not a politician and everyone’s got

Their own point on it and everything that kind of comes through to and their own reasons for how they express those points on a subject like the the the NHS but you know my family have had experience of the NHS over the last kind

Of 12 to 18 months and I must admit the level of care and the level of service that they’ve received has been absolutely phenomenal and I think sometimes we forget we we forget that that care and that support is there for people and we get stuck on the numbers and we get

Stuck on reports like this that isn’t to say that it can’t be better it isn’t to say that we can’t improve that we shouldn’t be striving for improve but I think sometimes we’ve got to really remember those positive parts that that kind of come with it to the second point

And specifically around technology I think so much of this from friends that work in the NHS there’s so many layers now of management and there’s so much kind of things that they have to do to be allowed to do their jobs and they find you know one of my friends who

Who’s now moved back to to Ireland who who worked at the NHS she was eventually driven out of it because she found that the amount of time that she was spending with actual patients compared to the process of managing the patients was massively out of skew and that she felt

That she wasn’t able to give that same sort of service so when I look at it is that fundamentally I believe the NHS should always be free I think it’s one of the things that makes this country the country that it is and I think I think all of us should

Fight for that and I think all of us should appreciate that and I think all of us should do as much as we can to support that in any way that we can through our healthy choices and the points that we just that we just talked

About but secondly on that is I think we need to look at the organization as a whole and how you change big organizations I want to stress a point is I’ve worked with some of the biggest retailers in this country and I’ve tried to fundamentally change their business

Models these companies are tiny compared to the size of the NHS reforming and changing organizations like that take huge amounts of time huge amounts of resources huge amounts of passion from everyone around it and actually everyone pulling in One Direction and sometimes we will still get things wrong in that

Process but if we believe in it and if we set off in that way we will eventually get to the right way is is my thoughts thank you thank you lady on the end yeah I totally understand where people are coming from and I’m so glad that you had a wonderful experience with

The NHS with your family but that’s not always the case and we have to be realistic about this we have to have some really tough realistic conversations about where were failing people to go on from the previous I was I attend tside adult Weight Management

Services um and I’ve had to go back to them because of um medical problems and five years ago they were still given the same stuff out as they are today and even the people who are offering the service and you know doing the classes are basically saying is wul outdated and

Inadequate and that got ties in with what we were talking about previously about people struggling with their weight issues people trying to get healthier and trying to do the best they can but it’s not just that there I know it’s multi-layered I know it’s a massive

Great big tanker a turn around but I think it’s time now that Scotland sits up takes notice and really gets to grip with this problem because we do have an age in society and if we don’t get this right we are in deep deep problems for

The future thank you man with a black top yes on you go I think the main isue of the NHS um in Scotland but not just only Scotland but the whole of the UK is um Staffing numbers Recruitment and also mainly retention and I think you could

Throw as much money the NHS and I think money will always be there to an extent but if you don’t get if you don’t get enough people to see patients um and can do operations um then it it’s always going to be on its knees and it’s always

Going to struggle and that’s why when you go an you’re waiting all day to get seen or you’re waiting once if no years for an operation because there’s just no a staff to do the work which takes us back to to brexit um where we often end

Up in this program as well Emma you mentioned uh you you live in Barcelona I don’t know what your experience of the health system has been over there but do you think we expect too much of the NHS here now I think um I’m not sure that we expect too much

I think a great affection for the NHS and and rightfully so I think it’s you know a fantastic institution I me you look over to United States for example and the healthcare that you know everyone has to pay for everything I mean it’s horrendous and I think the NHS

Provides excellent care in emergency situations and cancer treatment and such like but for every story you hear of that nature you do hear about the people in trollies in corridors not getting operations and such like so what can we do I mean the question originally was

What do we need to do is to reform it and as as yet and no one’s really sort of come up with any suggestions um you know more we need more money so where does the money come from I mean could we consider um some members of society paying for prescriptions for example

Everybody loves free stuff but if I’m middle class and I’m earning plenty of money why do I get a free prescription when it could go to someone needing it the same could be said and this is potentially more controversial but for example when I go

To seea GP we all have seen the figures of how many thousands of appointments are missed every day if there was a small charge like23 you know the the the price of h a meal deal to some members of society you know if you’re if you’re if your means

Tested you’ve got enough money to pay3 to go to see your G your GP would that suddenly create a whole lot more money maybe and and I know it changes fundamentally what the NHS is is about because NHS is free at the point of care

But maybe we’ve got to the stage if if our NHS is Bleak and completely you know inefficient maybe we’ve got to the point where we need to say well can we look again at this and can the people who can afford to pay make those payments so there’s more services and better

Services for the people who cannot pay it well we keep being told we need to have a big conversation about this is that the kind of thing we need to look at Douglas Lon I think uh I think we do need to look at uh everything I think

There is more demands on the NHS I think we all understand that people are living longer medicines are more expensive and that’s that’s not going to not going to shrink so what reforms do we need that’s what the question is I I do think there is a part of modernization and and that

Goes back to maybe the the um the GP appointments missed you know why for example you’re not getting a text message to remind you you’ve got a a GP appointment so then you you don’t miss it um but yeah I think you’ve actually

Got to be we we got to look at some more basic things it’s actually tricky to get a GP appointment I don’t know if you’ve you’ve tried lately so so if people can’t see the GP then there’s going to be a bigger amount of people going to to A&E

Instead so it all has a knock on effect so I think we have to get some Basics right which is get be able to see a a GP and in terms of A&E it’s you know I I had a a bad experience by my father last

Year he was eight hours waiting on an ambulance outside the A&E to get in so that means that that ambulance can’t go to to get someone else so there is some basic changes we need to to look at and then also look at a a larger form okay

Back to the audience man in the blue and white stripe shirt yeah I think the big problem is millions are spent on agency nurses where if wages and conditions for nurses that are within the NHS are withheld and improved then a lot of nurses would be retained and they go

Elsewhere and also would love to ask Michael in particular if labor Administration was to come in would you increase taxes cut funding elsewhere or borrow to improve funding towards just now you seem briefly Michael respond to that certainly so what we said is that we across the UK would

Scrap the non-dom tax status um and that would deliver uh significant investment into the NHS and uh in the UK labor we have committed to doing that in in England Wales that’s going to be spent on a waiting list we’ve matched that pledge in Scotland so with the ex extra

Money that come in will be attributed to trying to bring some of those waiting lists down and that’s absolutely key we have to make sure and we we know that by I think it’s by 2015 that um over 50% of the the revenue in Scotland will have to be attributed to

The NHS on current trajectory so we’re going have to find ways to make sure that we can get more funding in so there are ways like that closing tax tax loot poles making sure that we can get more money in so that we can actually pay for

The services that we need okay uh your suggestions hashtag is BBC DN and social media I know we’ve got a lot of hands still up but there’s other things we want to talk about this evening as well and lots of questions uh around this area question four tonight which comes

From Chris Scott Chris good evening hi good evening uh in view of Labor’s interference in the Gaza ceasefire opposition debate and the Speaker of the House branding bending the rules to ensure Scotland’s voice is once again not heard in Westminster is it time our MPS came back to Scotland to focus on winning

Independence thank you well that’s Chris’s view their Labor’s interference in this debate Michelle Thompson you’ve been an MP should our SNP MPS be coming back to Scotland to focus on winning Independence walk out of Westminster on this wait a minute let’s look at the position that happened here the big

Stand out for me was the Clarks of Westminster putting a letter in the public domain now if you’ve been in Westminster as I have and indeed in the Scottish Parliament you don’t see much for the Clarks they’re highly skilled highly professional in all these Arcane rules in Westminster Leo in the Scottish

Parliament about what is the right thing to do what’s the legal position what’s the precedent now the Clark in this particular son made it quite clear there was no precedent for this and so much so he sought to put it in a public demain so clearly I believe that Lindsay ho as

Speaker’s position is untenable the private meetings with the whips which the Clarks were sent away from now in terms of your question um stepen Flynn in Westminster who I think has been doing a super job in trying to get people’s voices heard of the disgraceful things that are happening in Gaza he

Made it quite clear that they have to represent everybody in Scotland not just people like me who absolutely want to see Independence and whilst people vote for SNP MPS and were not independent he says MP should still be there and I agree with him but that doesn’t remove

From the fact that this has been quite a disgraceful episode in Westminster and the way that Lindsay Hil promised a further debate to the SNP as the third largest party and then retracted it utterly disgraceful should he go yeah absolutely Chris you asked the question

Yeah I I uh I feel like uh it’s not the only time that our voices have been silenced and I think it’s not going to be uh it’s going to be silenced again and I just feel now is the time for us to actually get back home and

Concentrate on running our own uh running our own country Michael Mar c can you understand why the SNP are so annoyed about this effectively being cut out of the process by Westminster as they see it well I’ve heard the how annoyed they are I’ve seen the media coverage I’ve heard Steven Flynn talking

Talking about this at some length I think that um Michelle knows the detail more than I do in terms of the way that these procedures work in Westminster I’ve never been there um in terms of being elected to to Westminster so it I think what has been lost too often in

This is that the UK Parliament has now voted for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire um it said that we should be delivering um humanitarian Aid into Gaza motion it was it wasn’t the S&P motion but the parliament voted for it and I think that the reality of this is you

Know there are people tens of thousands of people losing their lives in the most horrific circumstances and too often I think in this debate in the last last couple of weeks there’s been too much of that has been lost I understand there is that discussion that people want to have

It’s about actually those rules and whether people feel that they are heard or not in that process but I think most important thing is that we make sure that that there’s a loud clear message that we need that ceasefire and it has to happen as soon as possible Douglas

Limson can you understand why the SNP and SNP members are so Furious about this no I think no one came out of it well last week I came across as a a complete shambles and I don’t think um Labor’s interfering behind the scenes was uh was was helpful either so I can

Understand the frustration but um and I think the biggest concern for me is that we’re we’re actually talking about what happened behind the scenes as opposed to the the situation in Gala Gaza and Palestine I think that that probably the the biggest issue that we should be

Talking about not not the going on in in Westminster Emma Christie I have to say that um I feel the use of the word disgrace needs to go to everyone in the chamber that day because the focus needed to be Gaza and I understand There are rules to

Be followed in such like but but one week later we still debating he broke the rules no he broke the rules I’m sorry but since then how many children have died in Gaza I would say that and in terms of do we walk out of of Westminster my feeling

On that is we’ve got to be in it to win it if you’re not in the room you’re not going to be part of the conversation and I feel it’s absolutely fundamental that um there is a voice heard in you know in Westminster you know I I I live in

Barcelona and we’ve got a similar situation with the catalans and the the Spanish government and and what is so important in that situation as well is that the voices are heard not only that people get a chance to speak but that they are listened to is absolutely key

Uh gentleman in the back row yes when you go it would have been possible for the S SMP to get that motion through if they had just slightly tweaked the phology uh and it presented a more balanced picture because uh the fact is it was designed to embarrass the labor

Party they recognized that that labor has a problem historically with their anti-semitic position so it had to be more balanced in their wording and the SNP knew it and exploited it and that was the only reason why that motion didn’t carry uh because it would have got labor support otherwise and just

Three along just three along from you there’s a lady shaking her head there on you go yeah I completely disagree with that considering the SNP used two of their three opposition days to push for a ceas and Gaza and my original Point why I raised my hand was we’re talking

About how many children died from the point where the SNP walked off the floor what if rishy sunak and Kier starmer had called for a a ceasefire two months ago how many children and women and men really sa then Callie Russell the original question is is it time our MPS s SMP MPS

Came back to Scotland to focus on winning Independence I don’t think it’s de democracy means being involved in interaction with it what happen the other week from a political and Democratic standpoint is I’m sorry it’s just a poic like you mean it’s taken away the chance to have that vote

Michael said the parliament sent a clear message Parliament didn’t send a clear message because at the end of the day people walked out anyway it wasn’t a united front they didn’t vote through that same sort of point so that didn’t come across the thing around this and

We’ve all touched on it is that we’re talking about processes the reason why we’re talking about processes is because we’re not tackling the main issue like the thing that you just said said there is is so unbelievably true why is it taking the third biggest party in the UK

To bring this time and time and time again why are we not standing up of it Michel Omar yeah I think that the parliament voted in the end there was the parliament post it has moved on significantly in the last couple of months I think the lady at the back is

Right you know I would have liked us to be in a position where we were calling for an immediate ceasefire a lot earlier I’m glad that that’s the position of the UK Parliament is taken now the reality that I’m particularly interesting is what that actually means on the ground

And you know that yes we have to actually push diplomatically internationally to try and make sure that we get that Aid in that we work with Partners both in in Palestine and Israel to try and help them to solve the issue uh as it goes on um is hugely

Complex but we need to make sure that as much as possible that we can speak with one voice try and find the common ground and I think that that is what we we need to do politically parties need to try and find a common ground rather than trying to pull apart and find

Differences if I go back to Chris he’s going to burst on this burst Michael uh in the last vote uh labor abstained on the ceasefire uh most of labor abstained on the ceasefire um so they didn’t actually come together and and and do that and as I said I’m really glad that

That has moved on in recent weeks and only a couple of weeks ago I’m saying but and the vote that came this week the motion that was put the labor party called for immediate humanitarian ceasefire increased Aid and wanted actually talking about a two State solution in that’s absolutely critical so on that

Israel have fundamentally said they’re not going to have a two-state solution you cannot force something that the Israelis don’t want to do the second sorry the second Point sorry I’m just going to I’m just going to push you on this the second point is only a few

Months ago or a couple months ago your leader was on LBC stating that they should cut off the water and they should cut off the power to the gazans that’s that’s your own that’s your own we we cannot we cannot as as Britain Force anybody in this region to do

Anything we have to work you frankly in the long long history of this that’s part of the problem what we actually have to do now is work in open dialogue with both sides in that and I can’t give up on the idea of a two-state solution

You know I don’t think any of us should because it’s the only way you’re right that the Israeli government are opposed to that position and the leadership of it but there’s many people in Israel who believe in it fundamentally and we have to be good partners to them too well

We’ll see if if talks for a ceire do move forward over the course of the next few days right the last few minutes of the program we’re going to do something different tonight debate night is 5 years old this week and since we launched well a lot has happened brexit

Cost a living crisis pandemic political upheaval at home as well four Prime Ministers two first minister so since it’s our first birthday and since it’s my birthday today as well um I get to ask a question tonight what is the lesson of The Last 5 Years for all of us

I’ love to hear from you on this as well Michelle Thompson what’s the lesson of The Last 5 Years since this program launched stand up and be counted it will be no surprise to any of you that I’m a passionate independent supporter and what that means for me is making our

Voices heard and getting the governments that we vote for to implement the policies that favor our people now we had a chance in 2014 we weren’t success successful but since that day I’ve made it my absolute life mission and guiding mission to make people’s lives better and going back to your earlier questions

Sir we have a job to persuade people that it’s normal to run your own Affairs that it’s normal to get the government you vote for and that it’s normal for them to implement the policies less than the Last 5 Years Don’t Give Up on Independence all right dou LS go for it

Briefly briefly I say the lesson in the last five years that maybe Michelle should should take on is actually to run the country properly that’s what you’re to do lesson not easy that’s why we keep getting elected Micha Mara lesson of the last five years I mean we need to get rid of

Tory Prime Ministers and all of that I mean the what I I think the what we saw in the last week of the last Tory prime minister just out the door 18 months ago standing in a front of a room including known Nazis talking about deep state conspiracy theories shows how utterly

Bankrupt the Tory government has become and the Tory party divorc from reality utterly appalling we need to get rid of them and we need to try and unite the country with a better Vision about what change can be Emma Christie lesson of the last five years 30 seconds let’s get

Back into Europe I see y Callie Russell W of the last five years for you quite like Emma’s one but maybe my own one would be to to challenge the status quo like a lot of the things we’ve talked about here have resulted because the status quo isn’t

Challenged and we don’t try to innovate we don’t try new things and that’s often done because we have a a fear towards them challenge it try things differently sometimes they’ll work out okay take for time less of the last five years man in the black talk and and the most S note I

Think um the lesson of the last five years is Scotland as divided as it’s ever been um and also it’s in the worst state economically and our Public Services is the worst it’s ever been man with the glass less than the last five years Fox one more quickly the man in the

Great off on the front you less than the last five strike strike strike if you want better standards of living well no consensus there but thank you very much indeed for that that’s it for tonight we’re back with you next week we’re going to be in in veress you

Can come along by applying on the website there and the week after that we’re going to be in dumre if you missed any of tonight’s program we’re repeated a bit later on on bbc1 Scotland or you can watch anytime that suits you on the BBC I player of course thank you very

Much to my panel and a brilliant audience here in dunde this evening and to you at home for watching we’ll see you next week in the meantime from all of us on debate T night stay safe stay well good [Applause] night [Applause]