Exposing Dark Money in UK Politics

Exposing Dark Money in UK Politics. In this compelling episode of the Purpose Made Podcast, we’re joined by Peter Geoghegan, an esteemed investigative journalist, author, and the mind behind groundbreaking investigations into the murky waters of political financing. Geoghegan’s work has illuminated the dark corners of British politics, earning nominations for prestigious journalism awards and sparking crucial conversations about the integrity of democratic institutions.

As the former editor-in-chief at openDemocracy and a contributor to top-tier publications worldwide, Geoghegan has a knack for uncovering uncomfortable truths. From the Brexit campaign to the controversial dealings of political lobbyists, his investigations delve into how unseen money shapes public policy and opinion, often at the expense of transparency and fairness.

In today’s deep-dive conversation, we explore key themes from Geoghegan’s latest book, “Democracy for Sale,” and discuss the broader implications of his findings on global politics and the very fabric of democracy. Join us as we navigate through a series of eye-opening topics, shedding light on the complex interplay between money, power, and governance.

Timestamps:

00:00:00 – Introduction
00:01:14 – Democracy For Sale
00:01:56 – UK’s Corruption “Wake Up Call”
00:03:27 – Lobbying, Brexit & The DUP
00:06:31 – Integrity, Professionalism & Accountability & The Origins Of The Atlantic Bridge
00:07:44 – The Greensill Scandal
00:10:11 – Lobbying & The Case Of The £118K-A-Year ‘Advisory’ Gig
00:11:33 – Distraction, Disaster Capitalism & The Dead Cat Strategy
00:12:27 – The IEA & The ‘Brexit Influencing Game’
00:17:34 – Influence, Statutory Instrument & Dark Money
00:19:48 – The Elections Act & ‘Tories Target 2 Million Expats With Polling-Day Proxies’
00:22:32 – Cambridge Analytica & Digital Influencing
00:26:03 – Dwindling Attention Spans, Misinformation & Digital Manipulation
00:28:12 – The Trump Before Trump
00:31:32 – Destabilisation, The Russia Report & The Owen Paterson Scandal
00:34:36 – The Nolan Principles: The Antidote To Sado-Populism?
00:35:20 – Truss, The Lettuce & Cash For Access
00:39:42 – Infosys & VIP Access
00:42:21 – PPE Procurement, Lost WhatsApps & The Covid Inquiry
00:45:22 – Geopolitics, The Year Of The “Election Super Cycle” & Voter Fatigue
00:47:05 – Strategies for Countering Right-Wing Populism
00:49:10 – Audience Q&A – Teesside Freeport & A Counter To PopCon – Dark Money In Plain Sight
00:52:50 – Key Thoughts & Takeaways

Peter Geoghegan’s insights offer a sobering look at the challenges facing modern democracies. Through meticulous investigation and a commitment to truth, Geoghegan not only exposes the mechanisms of influence and control but also sparks a conversation about the path forward. This episode is a must-listen for anyone concerned with the future of democracy, the impact of dark money in politics, a desire for change, and the role of journalism in safeguarding public discourse.

If today’s discussion inspired you, ignited curiosity, or provoked thought, don’t forget to subscribe to the Purpose Made Podcast. Share this episode with friends, family, or anyone who believes in the power of informed dialogue to shape a more transparent and equitable world.

That is incredible that is selling  seats in the House of Lords into the   legislature that is actually just  making corruption and we tolerate that the law also allows these groups who are  abroad to act as third parties and give money to  

British politics so actually far from making it  harder to make for foreign influence of British   politics and foreign donation the government has  made it easier we see it in in America we see it  

In the UK in respect to how that money operates so  yeah again I’d love to get you take a look yeah no   it’s a huge issue I think I think it’s a massive  issue I think it’s probably the biggest issue I  

I wrote for this again on my sub Before Christmas  about basically the British government brought in   the conservative government a couple of months  ago a series of quite sweeping changes to how   elections are done in the UK I gu you previously  been in business with the head of Saudi secret  

Intelligence and a Danish gun rder there was  aspects of the story that feel like a thriller   hey man it’s Absol pleasure to have you how are  you I’m very good thank you very much for having  

Me on I’ve wanted to get you on for a while having  read your book over the festive period I was just   blown away by your insights and kind of the work  that you’d uncovered and continue to uncover I  

Notic recently you’ve been back in in the news  and bits and pieces with with your work as well   and yeah it’s just wanted to share your Insight  with our audience so here we are so thank you  

Very much for the time but before we dive into it  let’s start with a who you are what you doing why   yeah so my name is Peter Gay again um yeah the  book you refer to is called democracy for sale  

Dark money different politics it came out in 2020  and and was kind of it was kind of like coming   together with a lot of Investigations I’ve been  doing for a few years before that looking at the  

Role of of money and power and British politics  and and at the time I was investigations editor   at the website open democracy then I became the  editor and Chiefs there and now I work I I have  

I have a bunch of different hats at the moment  I run a substat called democracy for sale where   I do a lot of stories about this sort of work and  because it’s a big passion of mine and I also work  

As an investigative reporter for the organized  crime and Corruption reporting project the L CRP   amazing and yeah like today seems like a perfect  time to have this conversation I’ve noticed in the   news that the UK have slipped you to 20th Place  in respect to corruption so yeah let’s move start  

There yeah this is quite this is quite important  so this is Transparency International who are an   international very respected anti-corruption  organization they’ve got a UK chapter and   every year D to bring out this thing the CPI the  kind of the the global perceptions of corruption  

And Britain is now Britain last year slipped from  13th to 18th which was as lowest policing and now   it’s gone even lower it’s now 20th and the main  reason behind for this is the PPE conf which Ra  

Was an issue I was reporting pretty early it was  a story I kind was reporting from kind of pretty   almost the start of the pandemic and that’s been  the big thing obviously there been a lot of news  

About that we know a lot of uh jel M’s been in  the news but there’s other there’s other people   too around that kind of there the VIP Lane for  Co contracts Etc and I say what the Transparency   International uh survey and the finding I think  it challenged a lot of people’s experiences I  

Think it’s nothing that’s Comm the blue I think  in many respects like I wrote last week on my   substock and was also with the times about the  failure to appoint Rich sux faer to appoint an   anti-corruption champion in Parliament for the  last 18 months and it’s just quite clear you do  

This is a government for all manner of reasons  that seem to have a very very lack attitude   when it comes to issues of corruption so in some  ways it’s it’s a it’s the right kind for us to be  

Talking but it almost feels like if any week over  the last two or three years and something would   have been happening that week that we could have  pinned this conversation to as well yeah exactly   but I guess like in respect to the wider picture  it’s something that that’s been evolving over a  

Number of years obviously when when we first  started to see a coalition of government it   wasn’t that long ago that I recall David Cameron  actually saying that lobin is going to be the next   great Scandal waiting to happen and since since  then we’ve had an awful lot of Evolutions both  

In the UK and wider field but yeah like we can’t  really have this conversation without mapping back   to the beginnings of brexit and and how kind of  brexit evolved and I guess like also the dup and  

ER and it’s it’s kind of one of the beginnings  in respect to the the your book democracy for   sale so love to get your insights on that yeah so  it was any in the entire book like the entire all  

The work most a lot of the work I’ve been doing  with last coming on now for six years I didn’t   think I would ever do wouldn’t something that I I  thought I was investigative journ I used to work  

CH for to make spes I set up a thing in Scotland  called the FFF which is an inves cooperat a lot   of inves of work but money and politics was  something I really didn’t report on all that  

Much and I was actually working as a Stringer as  a freelance journalist for the Irish Times back   in the middle 2060 when I my editor time sent me  up to sundland to write a story on um uh kind of  

Just before the brexit referendum what people are  feeling what’s the taking the temperature and so   um I place probably not not that far away from  where you are now Peter and I was sent up there  

And um on my when I was there I noticed this um  advert in the Metro the newspaper a big wraparound   advert that b leave Take Back Control which is  the official leave slogan and on the back it had  

A little Crest to the dup and it said sponsor this  side was brought to you by the Democratic unionist   party and I said that was very interesting I used  to work as a journalist in Northern Ireland so I  

Was aware of the D I knew that they didn’t have  any voes in Sunderland I knew that they weren’t   they weren’t the kind of party that normally spend  large sums of money outside of Northern Ireland   but I also knew that under a loophole that dated  back from the troubles political donations in norn  

Irand were kept secret so unlike the rest of the  UK we didn’t know who gave money to nor ir penties   and so I ended up publishing an investigation  about about 9 months later D’s brexit spending I  

Found out that they received almost half a million  pounds it been funded through a very shadowy thing   called the Constitutional research Council which  sounds really Grand but was actually just one guy   in a ter in a in a semi- detached house in the Ed  in Glasgow a guy who’ previously been in business  

With the head of Saudi secret intelligence and  a Danish gun Rudder there was aspects of this   story that felt like a thriller but it kind of  got me thinking and looking into how money is   spent in our politics and you we subsequently  actually over the next years and I wasn’t the  

Only person reporting we found out more about the  role of organizations like Cambridge analytica   we found out that both leave the efficient leave  campaign and Dominic comments broke electoral law   we found out a lot but actually also what happened  was almost nothing changed actually and very the  

Opposite happened where uh in the last couple  of years the the the conservative government has   actually brought in legislation that means our  electoral Watchdog is no longer independent of   governments which part which would also contribute  to the kind corruption index ranking um and the uh  

There’s there’s actually even less oversight of  money and Poli was back when I started writing   that book yeah exactly and it’s not too long  ago that rishy sunuk was standing on the steps   of number 10 ushering essentially the knowledge  principles of accountability transparency and  

And and more and where we are today it just seems  like there’s a doubling down rather than a an a a   hold of accountability and transparency respect  to what’s taking place it’s it it’s it’s funny   because you also mentioned about how some of  these Shady organizations ultimately allow for  

Like third party funding but it’s it’s an it’s  an evolution that’s occurred for quite a while   in respect to the the number of years that have  passed like I remember people like Liam Fox’s   Atlantic bridge for example yeah like let’s use  the opportunity to talk about that yeah some this  

Is this is the thing as well I think the the  issues in Britain some days they can feel very   you and you’ve got Ry soona standing up talking  about integrity and it does feel ridiculous like   like the story I mentioned I did last week about  the fact he hasn’t replaced someone he hasn’t  

Replaced John penro as the anti-corruption  champion 18 months after he resigned because   bis Johnson had broken Minister party gave and  refused to do anything about it so suak hasn’t   done anything but in some ways he is actually of  a pece you mentioned David Cameron and his quite  

Word about lobbying probably the biggest lobbying  Scandal of the last 20 years with David Cameron   and greenel there was this kind of incredible  hits spell to some of these people frankly where   they say oh yes yes we must do something about  this but actually far from they knew nothing but  

They actually get involved in in the worst of the  scandals themselves and yeah you mention there’s   a there’s a par half a chapter of my book actually  talks about the the Liam Liam Fox Atlantic Bridge   which was back when Liam Fox was was the foreign  secretary and he effectively had a lobbying his  

Private office was effectively been run by a  lobbyist used to appear used to come with him   on uh trips and what was really interesting about  this was at the time Liam Fox had had a charitable   charitable uh company Atlantic bridge that was all  about as the name suggests developing minks across  

The Atlantic between um real conservative think  tanks and what we call kind of Topton Street in   the UK and the kind of the conservative party  in the UK and some of these UK US think tanks   have now become very po famous people like the  Heritage Foundation others because they’re very  

Much involved with Dominic with Donald Trump  and have been very strong supports of domic   Donald Trump for a long time and but what what  Fox was essentially doing was setting up this uh   this supposed a charity that had huge links into  his office was being run by a by a lobbyist who  

Was who was also accompaning to meting so I was  remarkably actually was a scandal that I think it   was actually less had that Scandal happened almost  10 years later po stayed in a job but I think the  

Nature of the basis was 2010 11 12 when there  actually probably was some element of sense of   and and the liberal Democrats were the Coalition  partners for the conservatives so I think that   there was probably some aspect of that too and  Cameron had talked about how lobbying needed to  

Be reformed so Fox did go but it’s wor remembering  that the legislation David Cameron brought in he   then eventually brought in lobbying legislation  is I would argue worse than having no legislation   at all because if we had no lobbying legislation  at the moment people would say we have to have  

Lobbying legislation the labor partk we put on  their Manifesto it would be a constant issue   instead we have this awful lobbying legislation  which means that for example in-house lobbyists   don’t have to register as lobbyists so if David  Cameron who’s working for greenson goes to meet  

Somebody because working for greenel he doesn’t  have to register as a lobbyist which to anybody is   absolutely Bing it’s it’s ridiculous but there’s  the lobbying R captures only a fraction of the   lobbying that goes on and and I actually just roll  a substack blls today about Dominic grab who um  

Dominic grab had been interesting story in the  Ft kind of a slightly funny story in the Ft back   in September where the Ft had got hold of Dominic  grab’s CV which a consultancy for was pting around  

The city of London to see if you could get him a  new a job he wanted a job in consultant and you   know kind of talking up what a great guy he was  even including his karashi skins etc etc and it  

Was all what he would do after but he’s standing  down for election I’m sure the fact he standing   down Ling through the fact that he’s only got  about a 2,000 seat major 2,000 vote majority  

In SE and lo and behold I noticed that just a  couple of weeks ago Dominic Rob has now become   a consultant the Strategic Global consultant for  Thing Called aan capital which is a big mining   interest he’s been paid $150,000 a year for it and  that’s again this issue that I think beg people  

Will go well how is somebody able to do that job  and also be an MP at the same time and and if you   look at what the um under the lobbying register  he he’s also allowed to be personally involved  

In lobbying uh contacts he made in government  for two years after he leaves office and if   you look at David Cameron David Cameron joined  greenell exactly two years I think it was almost   two years to a day after he left office so the  this legislation it’s it’s really really poor  

And fact that we have it is almost in some ways  worse than not having it at all well definitely   it’s it’s paper in I’ve worked in audit for many  a year before I kind of do what I do today looking  

At some of the things that we see today I’m like  on this is just so blatant like the conflicts of   interest even at our base level is just there to  be kind of dumfounded by what we end up seeing  

But I think it’s the ability to distract people  we talked about funding a little bit and but   there’s there’s a lot of parallels between people  that fund groups in America and and the the more   more nowadays cuz they keep on leaning more to  the right than center right but the funding of  

Groups in America and also the funding of groups  in the UK there’s a lot of similarities there but   then equally that ability that whole dead cat  scenario just have a scandal after a scandal   after a scandal after a scandal and lose people  in in the depths of the narrative to ultimately  

Just allow for the ushering in of just absolute  blatant wrongdoing Naomi Klein’s touched upon   this in things like disaster capitalism but this  whole brex influence game has really changed the   game of the political landscape so again I’d love  to get your take on that soon yeah I do that the  

Phas you use it the bre the brex of influence  games that’s also the title of the chapter in   my book but it comes from an investigation that my  colleagues my wonderful colleagues of Green Peace   on Earth the investigative unit P Green Peace did  back in 2019 and they basically stoned they did a  

Sting operation Against The Institute of economic  Affairs to do all this kind of libertarian thing   Pang in the UK it doesn’t declare its donors and  the Green Piece the Green Piece Jour was posed  

As a someone who had an interest in in in the meia  industry in us meia and wants to get access to the   UK and you had under cover you had the headed of  green of The Institute of economic Affairs saying  

Basically for £3,000 we’ll write a report that  will say the things that it’ll agree with what you   think basically you won’t get the right report but  it’ll agree with what you think and we get you a  

Meeting with a cabinet minister etc etc so a lots  of lots of access and in in that meeting in that   under cover Mark little with it’s just the as the  the head of the Institute of economic Affairs says  

That we’re in the brexit influencing game and it’s  and I do that’s probably a thanful thesis in my   book because I de think brexit did change it kind  of supercharged a lot stuff that was happening you  

Saw these sort of groups that were quite Fringe  like the Ia quite Fringe see is a bit cranky yes   they got money probably from corporations some  Tory donors Etc didn’t care it came from yes  

They had access into the media but often seen  as a bit kind a bit of a cranky out outfits   not that important suddenly they be became really  important partly because they were subscribing to   the narrative the brexit was great so there were  there were something cabinet ministers and Jacob  

Reese MOG David da was other could stand up and  say no it’s not just us there’s a great report   here from The Institute of economic Affairs that  agrees with all the things we want to say so that  

Was really useful it provided a kind of a fig leaf  and but also incredible access as we then saw Liz   trust by the time that Liz trust becomes prime  minister in in in September 2022 she basically   brings in huge way to these Topton Street people  from topon Street people from this tight network  

Of right-wing think tanks get none of them their  funding the her Chief of Staff has got links into   it her head of policy to be the taxpayer of the  alliance all the T Tim Montgomery that Pro LS  

And ser commentator says you’re well done the Ia  when Liz chust becomes prime minister you guys   incubated her and they kind of say they’re all  backs slapping each other on Twitter of course   now they can’t they can’t quickly enough kind of  say there’s nothing to do with us Liz trust wasn’t  

Our fault etc etc etc but it’s quite remarkable  I think the level of influence like I did a story   Rec my sub about the insute of economic Affairs  had appeared on the British media 5,000 times in  

The last year it’s incredible amount of access for  really quite small amounts of money and I remember   I was wrot my book um goo B who was a Tory M Tory  Minister W Tory MP he said to me look if you a  

Quar a million pounds and you wanted to influence  British politics I he said I wouldn’t give it to   a political party i’ give it to the think TCH  You’ get much more influence from from that I   think that do with anything else yeah definitely  and you see people look at things like question  

Time and you Al also always see the panel and you  understand from one perspective it’s Al always   that viewpoint on bias but then ultimately it’s  is putting experts with I don’t know ideologies   and also the the hidden layers if you actually  look at some of the underlying titles it’s slight  

Political commentator whether it’s your head of  policy at The Institute of economic Affairs and   it doesn’t make sense to have this kind of Mirage  when actually they stand for represent something   far different so it’s it’s interesting that piece  and and also I think structurally and system wise  

The UK system is built on principles but not  built on real policy so this it’s it’s very   brittle at the foundations so I don’t think  we actually have a system that is up to speed   with the realities that it faces I think that’s  really true I think there’s a couple of things  

That go on you’ve got you’ve got in terms of like  people not understanding where these people come   from like it’s most people do not know who the  Institute of economic Affairs are and they sound   like The Institute of fiscal studies or something  they sound really venerable when I started doing  

This work I never knew any of these groups were  I only got interested in them actually when I saw   the legam institutes back in 2017 maybe or 2018  published a paper and it was about an ordinary  

Border which just weren near were from I talked  about it was just a terrible piece of work it was   solutions to Lord Irish Border and one of them  was like having like uh basically like blimps  

Look looking after the Border I like crazy so I  was like who are these people how you get meest   and that’s how I end up writing about them but  I think more generally we do have a structure  

And a political structure it’s really really open  uh to abuse and part of the reason it’s open to   abuse I think is this kind of weird perception  amongst people in Westminster and actually for  

A long time on B Jour they it’s slowly starting  to change but not as much as I would like it to   that everything is fine there’s nothing to see  here British politic is all T people Bor anyone  

Who’s saying otherwise is a bit of a conspiracy  theorist um I think that the the co and the co   contracts has changed out a bit but not as much  as it should yeah definitely it but I think also  

That ability to influence you know traditionally  if you mentioned about giving money to thing tanks   rather than political parties but the ability to  work through a third party to take away ownership   and accountability but still have the level of  influence there we we see it in in America we see  

It in the UK in respect to how that money operates  so yeah again I’d love to get your take on that   yeah no it’s a huge issue I think I think it’s a  massive issue I think it’s probably the biggest  

Issue I wrote for this again on my sub Before  Christmas about basically the British government   brought in the conservative government a couple of  months ago a series of quite sweeping changes to   to electoral uh to how elections are done in the  UK they did it true statutary instrument which  

Means it didn’t have to Evol true Parliament they  did it with almost no debate but what they did was   they increase significantly the amount of money  that you can give anonymously to British politics   um and amount of things like unincorporated  associations which sounds complicated basically  

It’s they’re kind of they their groups of people  who don’t even have to file accounts can give the   British politics so we’re seeing there’s potential  to give more dark money to British politics never   been as highy and there’s so many ways to do it  you can basically somebody with a wife and two  

Kids can effectively give 50,000 anonymously to BR  politics that as 50,000 it’s work rewinding is the   is the cost of the leaders group of conservative  donors so if you give £50,000 to the conservative   party every a year you get to have dinner with  Boris Johnson and see your cabinet ministers four  

Times a year that’s incredible access for four  you 50,000 that’s really a huge access and a lot   of people would a lot of people would go they’d be  surprised to find out they don’t know this happens  

There’s no minutes taken of these meetings so we  have this potential in the UK to use particularly   third parties and they’ve done nothing about  this so the government has changed all these   it’s not as it’ be different the government to say  we’re not doing anything with electoral election  

Legislation we’re not going to touch it no they’ve  not done anything about the things that they’ve   been warned about so the um the commission on  standards in public life which is run by Lord   Evans the former head of MI5 so he’s not pretty  esta figure he’s not some he’s not on the fringes  

He brought out they brought out a report about 18  months ago that said look you need to do a lot of   things to stop dark morning Bri politics stop  far influence including closing these loopholes   around un incorporate associations the government  then brought in elections act elections Bill and  

Elections act that did nothing for these issues  did nothing but unincorporated association did   nothing about foreign influence but did mean you  had to to bring voter ID to be able to vote as   did also take away the independence electoral  Commission Now the government has increased the  

Amag can spending honestly increased thresholds  for donations without having to be disclosed and   it’s done nothing about the actual problems that  we see so now it’s it’s really really bad you can   see actually just today in the times there’s an  interesting report kind of slightly varied in  

The times about how the conservative party is now  lining up because one of the things the elections   act did was actually give the vote to about three  million British people who live abroad and hadn’t   actually bothered to keep up their registration so  now you can indefinitely live abroad live abroad  

Vote which seems be based on the the conservatives  assumption that these people would vote for the   Tories I’m not actually sure that’s true but  there’s a report in the science today that says   that conservatives have hired people to actually  kind of go and mobilize these groups so they can  

Acted their proxies and vote on their behalf in  the UK there also the the law also allows these   groups who are broad to access third parties and  give money to British politics so actually far   from making it harder to make uh to to for foreign  influence and British polic and foreign donations  

The government has made it easier so it’s it’s  it’s a really crazy situation yeah definitely and   and that ability historically I think it’s like  a 15-year removal of a 15year limit in respect to   that was historically something that if say I’m  from cumri right I grew up in in and around car  

So if IID lived abroad and came back then I’d  really have to go and vote in my constituency   but what they’re doing at the moment is hiring  voting coordinators to speak directly to these  

People and say oh we would like you to vote in  this area which just by chances has a very slim   T majority but we it’s just a to me it looks  like a desperation in respect to a cling to  

Power at the same you’re bringing in things like  voter IDs and that restricts people I think it   restricts about two million people reide in the UK  to vote because they don’t have respective ID so   that’s going to be a challenge and we mentioned  about the D Money element but also the ability  

To change the sums of money that you can spend on  elections like beforehand it was about 19 million   now they uped it to 35 so I I personally I’m quite  fearful I I feel a big wave in the UK of a desire  

For change people are like so sick and tired of  this nonsense but you kind of see also a doubling   down of a party kinu kind of 97 when they were so  desperate to remain in power it just look it looks  

Like the British people have a choice between a  party out of ideas and out of solutions and out   of anything on a willful desperation to kon’s  power and and also opposition to that is the   ability toact change and I just hope as a as an  eternal optimist that British people actually  

Do take the the route to change because if we  don’t we could end up in a very dark situation   we haven’t touched upon it yet but we we mentioned  briefly about things like Cambridge analytica and   digital influential Behavior like maybe it’s a  good opportunity to dive into into the realities  

Of how digital is influencing people’s reality  it was very interesting I think this actually   fasina to see around that to see like there was  there was some if you look at like Facebook the   Facebook ad Library where there you can see how  much people spent on ads on Facebook which really  

Is like still by the only Bas of transparency you  can get on the internet about where um Google has   an ad liy but it it wipes every three months  you can p three months of AD spend and it’s  

Interesting you the Tories have been pushing R  soon spending quite a lot of money we saw the   last general election a lot of um we saw the last  general election a lot of like kind of third party  

Campaigners popping up I report on them a lot and  spending tens actually total hundreds of thousands   of pounds think it was about 700,000 pounds in  total on Facebook Facebook ad declaring nothing   hadn’t declared a single donation so you’re  like where did all this money come from and  

Nothing they disappear each and nothing is done so  there there is that history and and and so it’ll   be very to see what happens in this election  the conservatives are working with Isaac Nido   who was involved in the last election campaign  and this is what remember the conservatives r  

A really dirty election campaigns by the it  online they did thing for they Rebrand their   Twitter account as the factchecking account this  is all really quite GM but how much this is an   impact on vulture is it’s very still very much a  mood point when it comes to academic in terms of I  

Think in close election of stuff is probably quite  significant I think in I I going be very surprised   the next general election close maybe I’m wrong  I just feels like conservative party are really  

Running get out so maybe it won’t be it won’t be  that significant but I think it has it a tonal   issue as well I think in terms of winner even if  it doesn’t change people’s vot I think it sets a  

Tone for the debate and it sets an expectation  for debate and discussion which I think is very   low and it’s actually genuinely really damaging it  can be damaging to democracy so I think there’s a   huge question there still massive questions about  like what what some of those debate look like in  

Dvk and in the US as well but fundamentally still  a so little oversight as I say the Facebook ad   Library which is the guts of five years old  is the only thing that we have that tells us  

About C parce are campaigning online and and I’m  also very interested what what what what are the   motivations who working along with these people  who are who are the pure people around this who   are the Consultants what kind of messaging that’s  been created the architecture messaging that’s  

Created around us I think that has you actually  seeing it we’re seeing at the moment with the with   the green agenda you know I wrote a big piece of  times that who supplement on this recently about  

The kind of push back against n zero and what  you’re seeing what we’ve seen there is like this   campaign this very this campaign in in Oxbridge  in the bi elction back then the summer uh which  

The Tor just about managed to win and the back of  which you know very strong anti- very strong anti   and behind like anti Net Zero and that does  move the dial like the conser it looks like   neighbor about the ditch their 28 million billion  pound green energy um green investment commitment  

And so that’s the issue it’s not necessarily all  just about winning votes I think it’s also about   narrative and narrative change and also I think  that’s the most important or that can be the most   significant aspect of some of this money in  power it might shift an election in terms of  

Getting some of the vote differently but can ship  the priorities in the narrative and often that’s   that’s winning actually more than seat in the  legislature yeah definitely and I think one of   the challenges being people’s attention spun like  there was a report a little while ago by Microsoft  

That kind of articulated the fact that we used to  have attention spans about like 12 to 14 seconds   now it’s dropped down to eight and reducing on a  on a year-by-year basis and that ability take out  

A snippet and go well have you seen this shot  have you seen this re have you seen this like   tweet averse to looking at the the de of what’s  really going on because I look at things and I  

Think this year this year the coming election is  going to be one that’s uh let ultimately one and   lost by the utilization of technology so where  you see bits and pieces that are coming out now   the ability to digitally manipulate people into  scenarios that they weren’t even present within  

Through the utilizes of of technology to mimic  voices mimic imagery whatever it may be people   will look at that and go have you seen this has  this really G on and that ability to kind of sway   votes is I think it’s going to be something  that people haven’t really ever dealt with  

Before because yeah back to that element of about  the dead the dead cat if you throw something to   distract away people are just constantly Curious  by the destruction so yeah I’m quite worried if   I’m honestly and I know at the moment labor have  got maybe about a 27o lead over the conservatives  

But if you look at previous elections in the  runup to at Le like 10 15 years there’s always   been this bump of a of a ninepoint swing and for  the conservatives up until an election is run so I  

I don’t think it’ll be anywhere near the 27 points  that we see at the moment I think it’ll be quite   close but ultimately it comes down to the fact  to and just ask people for what it is they they  

Want from a nation do you want to be values based  do you want to have like optimism do you want to   have hope for your children do you want to have  a bit more the progressive future but do you want  

To see the perpetuation of what we’ve seen over  the last 14 years and yeah I want to see I really   want to see change but yeah where they we’ll get  there is it’s it’s down to people at the moment  

Who have an ability to vote yeah I I do worry by  the depths of the conservatives how just desperate   they are to cling onto power because it’s it’s  a bit of a slippery slope you talked about it  

In your book but the Trump before the Trump for  example Victor and Victor Oban people need it’s   it’s about having that holistic Viewpoint  and looking further a field in respect to   voot suppression in trinida and Bago the analyst  Network in Argentina and people like Victor Oban  

And how that they remain in power rather than just  simply rise to power and yeah like I’d love to get   you take on all of those bits as well yeah well I  think it’s it’s it’s you know that’s that’s s i so  

Kind of slightly frightening about the the Year  we’re in I think that’s and what’s fascinating I   right been there’s quite a lot about Orban in my  book actually and he’s been since you the book is  

Now a few years old but he’s been somebody Wonder  reason that I haven’t written a sequel to it I I   think actually it’s still horribly current that  book a lot of things are in it are still just as  

Relevant I think i’ probably end up saying the  same thing over again what’s fascinating with   Oran if you take a character like he he was he a  he was a bright young thing in Hungary and the AES  

And at the time of the kind of towards the end of  Communism he actually had a a SOS scholarship to   go to talk where he came back he was kind of seen  as a liberal a liberal with both politically and  

Economically kind of free markety like kind of  social liberal um he he set up he head of Fidel   this this party they actually won power in Hungary  on a kind of Social and a kind of liberal ticket  

Then they lost power and when he got out when he  lost power he went to the Socialist he was like   look I’m this must never happen again if I get I  only to get back into stay EMP power and what he  

Did is he hired a pure consultany he hired guy  from falstein who used to work for um he used to   work for Richard Nixon and finklestein basically  said what you need is an enemy you and They Came  

Upon George Soros J the consultancy were mainly  were Jewish people but and sour is is clearly   kind of anti- sematic troll but they H that was  the idea we’re going to focus on George Soros and   basically on anti-Semitism and that’s going to  be your message H and that’s what s that’s what  

Orban has done ever since incredibly successfully  it’s kind of nature of his politics and you were   seeing it in other places and actually we’ve  seen some of it here you I reported from the   thaton conference last year the national  conservative conference where a number of  

Government ministers spoke on a platform where it  was people from fedz from orban’s party from the   far right of the the Republican Party in the  states people pushing this very nature ofous   message it’s very authoritarian message um and  what I think we should call them as part of what  

We call the populist radical right and the way  in which this is a kind of the the Nationalist   International if that makes sense it’s a Global  Alliance of nationalists the way in which they’re   channeling messages and able to I think also they  they’ve been very adapt at creation you know at at  

PE they’ve been very adapt at cre subing messages  very ad dep using the digital tools to shake those   messages and also very ad dep using dark money  and using that kind of the option of using that   to influence what’s happening I’m fascinated  I’ve become really interested at the moment in  

The fmer party stuff that’s happening across the  across Europe including my own country Ireland   and the first probably the first big farmers par  is this Dutch Farmers partty which to the polls   last year and I think it was local elections at  all that’s very influential you know report that  

That party was set up by a p agency this is  and that’s really important I think this this   aspect of Which democracy and democracy and and  capitalism are actually not working hand in hand   the the extent to which bested interests can use  the tools what should be the tools of democracy to  

Corrupt that is huge definitely it’s all about  destabilization in my view because if you look   remember we we talked about 2019 being quite a  a horrendous election cycle but in around that   period of time there was this famous report that  was getting a lot of traction but didn’t really  

End up with any any action plans to to mitigate  some of the areas that were noted and that was the   the Russian report it was it was flagged during  the election and there was also I remember the  

Committee members coming out after the fact and  doing a a press conference just to articulate just   how serious this is and then we look at how the  conservatives have been funded people don’t really   see that handing glove relationship between yeah  dark money like how how it comes to comes to play  

And how ultimately it has the ability to form the  narrative and and change the the whole outlook of   a Nation just by destabilization yeah no I think  I think that’s that’s the aspect of it I think  

There’s also boiling frog thing that’s happened  in the UK over the last few years where like we’ve   had succession after succession of fing up back  to the own Pon Affair which is just it is it is   absolutely remarkable what you had was a former  government Minister who was a paid lobbyist for a  

Number of companies you as I actually reported at  open democracy I was there at the time that by how   Patterson had actually after he been the Northern  Ireland secretary very very unpopular Northern   Ireland secretary probably the most unpopular  after he left office just after he left office  

He rang around load of companies that he’d met as  Lord SEC asked do you want me to work for you and   a couple of them said yes and these big contracts  he paid hundreds of thousand year to lobby for  

These companies then when the co and when Co  happened he was lobbying on behalf of these   companies and this was found he was found guilty  of this he was he was supposed to be suspended for  

30 days from from from The Commons and in response  what Boris Johnson did was attempt to to dissolve   the standards committee and replace it with a new  body that instead of tradition with sance commit  

Led by the opposition it be led by the government  so be Tor mg to making the real and in some way   it gave me hope because actually that that was  actually the start the end of Boris Johnson at  

That stage he was incredibly riding incredibly  high in the polls huge popularity ring and and   actually there was a push back against him in the  back that so that was good to see but it’s it is  

Work no I was actually um I’m not read it yet but  I was listening to Chris Bryan talk about his book   The um Chris Bryan the labor MP was understanding  committee and he was he made the point that I  

Think there’s been about 70 odd suspensions from  the House of Commons over the LA in the last 100   years 23 or over 20 of them have happened in this  Parliament which is just remarkable and that’s the  

Kind of and it’s become I think we become slightly  inure to this it’s just something that happens   and I think that’s really yeah it’s just it’s  something that’s really there’s there’s an aspect   for this is it’s really pernicious but people  I think can feel disempowered because it’s just  

It feels like it’s happening all the time and I  think that’s why it’s so important for politicians   and for otherist they know yeah definitely and  it’s not really a hard issue to solve because   if you look at the the challenge that being some  people that have waved into politics that haven’t  

Exactly got the the right ethics and morals and  standards around them we do have things like the   Noland principles where we could easily articulate  that to being the standardization of of MPS and if   MPS fall short it’s not a 30-day suspension it’s a  removal and a by elction and so these things there  

Is good to come from all of this chaos and the  good comes from the ability to they they often   go so far that it highlights the solutions right  in front of you of how to solve and mitigate some  

Of these challenges so I do look at things like  that and go well that’s that’s one wave that we   could um solve I also look at things we talked  about his dress at the beginning when when she  

Lost out to her letters that was quite comical but  she she left was it 48 9 days and she still ended   up her and Boris Johnson still ended up getting  what should be known as a dishonorable list  

Whereby we we talk about the Institute of economic  Affairs how many people got pumped into the House   of Lords through having a a small tenure as as as  the PM of this country and also the ability to is  

It 100,000 that she can claim for the rest of her  life some of these things just do not make sense   at the time that people are choosing well not  choosing they’re being forced between eating and  

Eating how does this play out when the pandemic  was was at its peak and there was often that line   of this one R for them and others for everyone  else it’s like this is what we we we play at  

The moment like MPS that haven’t ever been held  accountable because of wrongdoing from I guess   like the leaders at the top and that filters down  yeah I think it’s I think that’s it I think there  

Is a kind of the fish rods from the head syndrome  to this and I think there’s an aspect in which we   have set up a system as well where PFA parties run  on on private money largely they to ra they’ have  

To raise private money so that within the process  of that you end up ask well who’s going to give us   money so there we already we’ve accepted a system  where where access is sold and so that’s on its   own actually creates a huge amount of moral  hazards anyway even for the most honorable  

Of members that’s already a massive moral hazard  but at the same exactly we’ve got a situation um   I did an investigation into Dawns in the House  of Lords considered Don as P party treasurers   and discovered that for three3 million pound is  the going rate for part donor that is incredible  

That is selling seats in the House of Lords into  the legislature that is something happen that is   something that is just is actually just make it  corruption and we tolerate that and we tolerate   this Fiasco where people who happen to work for  made Forest John and feel good by telling them  

Nights things for for a couple of months get at  the age of 29 or whatever it is get put into the   House of Lords Forever This is shocking absolutely  shocking if it happened other countries we would  

Be incredibly critical of it and I think that’s  it I think there’s a there’s there’s some things   that can be done in terms of non and principles  terms of some aspects of legislation I there’s   also some quite like quite kind of almost builtin  systemic issues that we actually would there need  

To be really grappled with and need to be said  actually this this is not okay this is really   not okay it has to be named as such it has to be  named I think the seat in the House of Lords for  

Daughters actually has to be named is corruption  and we have to call it that so we can call it that   and then we could talk one other things like  second job and say this is problematic for  

Reasons and we can then have a useful balanced  conversation but until we do that I think we’re   going to we’re going to around in circle the word  corruption isn’t is often negated for a softer   term called crism and people go it’s just friends  and friends and and and donors it’s fine but no  

Corruption is is serious having previously  worked within audit looking at rules and   regulations throughout the world the UK is really  really weak when it comes to laws and legislation   around corruption and it’s because back to what  we said before I think there’s always been that  

Gentleman agreement that kind of handshakes we  we’ll do everything above board but there’s no   underlying legislation to hold people accountable  for their actions and and because we don’t see   the accountability that should take place we  talked about covid contracts but if you first and  

Foremost if you’re getting a huge winfall of of  of funds through simple connections with political   members then the ability to claw back that money  and hold pinking accountable at the moment it just   looks like Michelle is the only person and that  they’re they’re going for but she’s one of many  

And when when we start looking at people that also  facilitated this within government you shouldn’t   be able to claim that parliamentary privilege to  avoid scrutiny and and accountability for your   actions people should be a little bit more harder  in respect to what takes place CU I honestly don’t  

Think that people see the impact of that loss of  Revenue so when you look brexit for example is a   4% loss of GDP and people got 4% is not much it’s  a 100 billion but then when we start seeing things  

Like Co contracts and the accumulation of that  how much wealth is lost that way we start then   looking I looked today I think it was Rishi sunuk  and his wife’s relationship with is it infas yeah  

Yeah yeah that that’s just insane yeah was I did  a story on that recently too empasis have been put   on to Big procurement contracts which potentially  they could get a lot of new contracts in the back  

Off and I think this is where it’s interesting  saying that you because we don’t have so rak’s   wife is she’s very very wealthy Rak is the  wealthiest person to ever be in number Family   quite a long way he has a lot of money and it  was interesting when he finally batally brought  

Out his tax returns last year and most of the  money came from shares from dividend and shares   in the US and mean he um he paid he paid hidden  effective tax rat with 22% which very few people  

Nobody earning if you you earn that much money if  you earn 50 Grand a year on PA you’re affected tax   R is a lot higher and he was couple of million  pounds a year um and his wife his wife uh owns  

It doesn’t sound like much 0.93% of infosis but at  39 million shares and his wife’s share owning is   worth about 600 million give or take pounds of the  mon so that’s a big lot of a company last year in  

Dividends she got paid more than 30 million pounds  in dividends by empis and and over the last years   in has been getting more and more government  contracts and that’s not to say that they’re   getting the contract just because Ry sunak is  there or whatever else but you are talking about  

Potential conflicts of you are talking about a  company that really is now politically fairly   well connected and also you’re talking about a  company that will share prices are affected by a   company’s ability to get government contracts when  countries get government contracts the share price  

Goes up because of the expectation you get more  contracts and when you have a share holding it’s   worth 600 million p in a company and it’s paying  dividends at 3% which is what empasis pays you  

Don’t have to do the ma and go actually there’s a  lot of money there’s a lot of potential money here   and I think the fact that we’re so shy we shy away  from these things so much in this country we don’t  

Talk about about them we kind of we kind of say  well actually where’s the evidence of something   on toward is happening it’s like well this in  some ways a burden ofof shouldn’t be proactive   the burden of proof should be in terms of of of  transparency the burden of proof and what I was  

Really struck when the read as I wrote the story  I WR B emphasiz is that the ethics advisor made a   ruling that sunak doesn’t have to declare his wife  shering on the Min on the register of Interest  

Register of ministerial interest and I think a lot  of people think what surely he should and that’s   not about saying that his wife is different to  him yes but obviously they’re they’re in the same   household and she has she’s very very wealthy and  this is large amounts of money and there’s large  

There’s large potential upside to this uh for  her and I think we had as you say this kind of   good chops kind of approach almost in the UK where  we don’t actually sit back and go is this okay is  

This not something that we should be thinking  about for much much less much more proactive   transparency perspective rod and M kind of well if  there’s no if there’s no active sign of wrongdoing   what’s the problem yeah definitely and it’s that  parallel between government and corporations  

Because having spent an awful lot of time auditing  within corporations even from a cuman stance it’s   it’s a known hot bed for corruption but then  you can mitigate that by putting processes in   place like competitive bidding and retaining  that documentation so you can actually see the  

Flow through of how decisions were made it’s not  a lot of people when they talk about things like   fixing procurement they say well it’s it’s too  much of a burden of process and it’s going to   slow things down and we need to make decisions  quick does it honestly doesn’t take that long  

It doesn’t take long to document U what you’ve  been doing and I think this lack of documentation   we’re seeing it within the the co inquiry at the  moment in respect to people’s WhatsApp groups and   people’s WhatsApp me messages and yeah that that’s  that’s if you don’t have anything to hide then why  

Hide I think that’s it we do we have this kind  of system where we don’t have the kind of checks   and balances that you might have so we don’t have  an anti-corruption strategy you an an corruption  

Strategy for five year from 2017 to 22 it hasn’t  been updated the government has said it be suing   but it hasn’t it will be done in quote unquote  due course but what’s really striking about it  

Is is that the E grou ahead of that strategy a lot  of people in transparency space other campaigners   and others were calling for political donations  and party funding to be brought within that but  

We haven’t done that at all so if you are if you  run an art gallery you have to do money laundering   checks on people who come in and buy buy works of  art if you’re a political party and someone gives  

You so if someone comes into your art gallery  with underground and wants to buy something you   have to find out is it’s the proceeds of money  launder if you’re a poli party and someone can  

Come and give you underground that all you have  to do is do a quick Google to see are they on   the Electoral register or if it’s from a company  does the company register company house that’s   basically it that’s all you have to do nothing  else which is show really there’s no due diligence  

Done whatsoever on Poli fun and I think it’s  it’s been that way for so long through back to   that like gentleman’s handshakes it’s it’s been  like that for so long that it’s become like an   EST established protocol but then now because of  the changes and because of the shift in narrative  

And the shift in Direction in respect to where  politics is moving not just in the UK but globally   we need to start having more accountability and  more processes and controls in place otherwise  

We’ll get to a point we we won’t be able to really  our votes won’t count that’s a that’s a worry that   I I get to is when you have the ability to  vote but then you’re able to manipulate your  

System in such a way that your vote is becomes  meaningless and and that’s like democra acies make   that horrible slide to autocracies and you look  at it and go well actually how did we get there   and and it’s through these it’s it’s never really  through like a boom and bus scenario it’s always  

Just that small subtle pushing of an envelope day  in day out and and over the course of duration of   time that compounds into scenarios you look back  and go how did we get how did we let our country  

Get to this and that’s what I want to kind of  see change this year alone we’re in that hyper   cycle of Elections it’s it’s known as like the  super election year where about two-thirds of the   world’s democracies have having having elections  both now and up until the end of the year and like  

We have an opportunity to to change the narrative  to kind of articulate a world that is more values   based and more optimistic put a put put a nail  in the coffin of this Carnage that we’ve seen for  

The last couple of years throughout the world  and and start to move on from this what I I I   do worry people really aren’t that uh breadth of  the issues that that is truly at hand people are  

Kind of it it’s crazy some people just aren’t up  to speed in what’s what’s taking place in front   of their eyes and I don’t know if that’s the the  thing of maybe just being suppressed by so much  

Carnage and Chaos over a long duration of time  that they feel tired I’m not sure what it is but   there is this kind of opposites between people  that are really pushing for Progressive change   and also people that are just tired and fatigued  with the last couple of years it’s taken place and  

I think fatigue can often be like the kind of goal  of Poli campaign and that I think that’s probably   my concern with the election is the production  cynicism and cynicism is such a powerful motivator   in authoritarian regimes and in the kind of  move towards authoritarianism and I think  

That’s something I definitely kind of feel and  can and unfortunately definitely can see aspects   of in Britain and British politics definitely  he we talked a lot about greed and Corruption   the ability to influence hopefully we’ve shed some  light on a lot of the topics that are taking place  

For people to at least consider I’m not saying  that you need to listen to everything but at   least consider the the discussion that’s taking  place but a lot of it is also been about the the  

Challenges but I guess how do we in in your view  in your experience how do we respond to the rise   of the right that we see today and also what are  your key thoughts of the future it’s a really good  

Question how do we respond this how do you respond  for this political moment where you’re seeing a   lot of a lot of kind of kind of really worrying  things in in politics and really worrying things   in our politics I think the information ecosystem  so important like where people are getting their  

Information for the validity of information it’s  so quick for missing misinformation to spread and   I think like just like one thing I always really  cons myself with being making sure I’m checking   my facts before I’m sharing something make sure  think even if it just if it plays to my biases  

Even more so making sure I’m checking this my and  I think there is a thing about it it’s hard to do   as an individual V but thank you about politicians  political parties who are who are trying who are  

Try at least trying to keep some standards work  trying to talk about things like having reforms   of of of the way our politics is done I think  that’s all that is really important I think it’s  

Important in some ways as well having some I’m  not getting being it’s easy to feel uh a strong   TI of negativity in these kinds especially around  the kind of the political structur that we see I   think it’s really important not to on a personal  level I think it’s really important to not feel  

So so breath and so hope that you don’t see change  you don’t see that change as possible cuz in some   ways that’s the goal of this is to make change be  like impossible and I think when you do when you  

Kind of give into that and feel like yeah change  is impossible that’s actually winning that’s that   is per of foran Playbook and I think that’s a  bit when I look at the future it’s so important  

That’s so seeing uh the potential for Change and  and and and the things you see it is been you the   kind of the rise of new types of social movement  I think are really interesting the climate debates  

Brought in a whole new WRA social movement the  whole new way of organizing I think all that’s   it’s it’s still in its infancy probably but that’s  that’s all really interesting like there is still  

It’s it’s it’s not as C and DED it’s not as as  defintive as sometimes it can feel I think that’s   probably my kind of slightly Pang glassy and Hulk  future yep amazing it’s been an absolute pleasure  

Chat to you before we kind of close out just got a  few questions from our audience so the first being   what one particular person wanted to understand  your viewpoints on free ports with a UK I think  

It’s really interest I think I I kind of started  looking into free ports a few years ago when the   government course came out like there been a lot  of concerns internationally about free ports it’s   kind of money Lo and and problems with not of  money loing with other aspects of free ports and  

They kind of don’t make much sense in brit because  Britain is actually quite a low tax jurisdiction   so it does like Britain’s kind of like a big  already so what’s going on with it yeah and  

I think what we’ve seen from tside in Te like I  still can’t believe there hasn’t been a National   Audit office investigated into them I think it’s  really concerning what we’ve seen with Ben hin and  

His mates up in t um private I are amazing work on  I I started doing a little bit of digging in say   myself and some of the other free ports I think  at the very at the most charitable uh reading a  

Free report seems to be not particularly use of  policy at the at the most concerning reading based   on what at least we have from pworth it seems  to be there seems to be huge I think concerns   about how they’re operating the spend of public  money on them and who’s making who’s benefiting  

From these things yeah from the tside perspective  not everybody will be able to speed with it but if   you could maybe give some highlights in respect to  that particular case well what effective you have   in theide is a huge transfer of of public assets  particularly land to a company that was owned is  

Owned by a couple of people a huge transfer of  funds from public the purchase of these public   assets to the same company which seems to be  collected into benou and the conservative mayor  

Of Kei side a huge concern like it seems as if  the public the public is on the hook for all the   potential losses that could recr with the a t site  while it’s a private company that has inexplicably  

Been given these contracts given this huge amount  of land for almost no money that’s on the that is   on the hook for all that stands to benefit from  all the upside so I don’t understand is that  

Supposed to be brexit Britain where we just have  a kind of a mass transfer of assets from uh from   the public uh from the public to the private and  somehow that’s going to create new world I I i’  

See no evidence of that yeah it’s a correlation  between I think it was like 97 that they paid   for the for the land and it’s it’s valued over  100 million so you’re looking at that like it  

Just you can’t comprehend it for me like at the  moment as we record this a lot of people are   a past tense talking about things like the post  the postmaster scandal in respect to Horizon due  

To that upset you amazing show there was an ITV  but me personally I’m looking at this and going   well this is another Scandal waiting to waiting  to happen and it feels like it’s just simmering   away in the background and I think that you know  sooner rather than later that that that that’ll  

Kind of reveal its realities and I know at the  moment that there’s a discussion about going   through like an independent review who respects  corruption but yeah who who knows who knows what’s   going to happen there just the simple BS just  don’t add up97 for 100 millionth pound worth  

Of land just don’t make sense I’m intrigued to  see how that flows out another question from   our audience was also um that of what are your  viewpoints in respect to how opposition parties   counter the the current challenges that we see  in front of us in respect to the conservative  

Party and wi receiv field the Republicans in the  workup I think it’s I think the one thing I like   from Michel anti-corruption baywick and from  the things I’m interested in I would love to   see a unified opposition with a series you know  not just a recommitment to nother principles but  

It say of proposed about what we’ do what we would  do like to end the lab party said that they would   end the House of Lords but actually give very  little detail about what that would look like  

But a series of actual concrete steps of what we  would do to tackle the rth and British politics I   think that would be really important for I love  to say you’re amazing yeah I could cheat to you  

All day but I yeah just want to close out and say  thank you so so much for your time if you want to   finish out with any key thoughts and takeaways you  want to leave at our audience that’d be amazing oh  

Thank you very much P it’s been lovely to be it’s  been great to be here it’s great to talk to you I   think yeah I guess my my big takeway I think I  would kind of make the case for people keeping  

Informed about what’s happening people keeping  an eye keep keeping a breast of what’s going   on I think journalists like me others in the  in the space are all trying to kind of bring   these stories to light the more everyone can do  to kind of keep themselves informed what what’s  

Happening and support the kind of work that we  all do yeah that’s great amaz and how can people   get in contact with you if they want to the  best place to find me is on substack actually  

I have my democracy for sale substack so you can  subscribe to that and then actually if you respond   to emails on that you actually go straight to my  inbox so I see you amazing thank you so so much  

For your time it’s been an absolute pleasure  thank you very much P we love be here with you