We’re joined by CrossFit TILT co-owner Max Issac this week for a coaching and gym ownership-focused episode. We talk about coaching techniques in the world of CrossFit, discuss the balance between training and coaching, and the challenges of opening a CrossFit affiliate.
We also explore the dynamics of programming in EMOMs and Tabatas and the importance of preparation before launching into intense workouts.
From the intricacies of CrossFit coaching to the excitement of high-intensity workouts, we cover a wide range of topics that will provide valuable insights for both coaches and athletes.
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ABOUT THE SHOW
Every Tuesday, we answer listener questions about health, fitness, fulfillment, and what it takes to chase what truly matters.
ABOUT US
📍 Ben Bergeron is a best-selling author, coach to 7 CrossFit Games champions, and founder of CompTrain (www.comptrain.com).
📍 Patrick Cummings is a long-time CrossFitter, writer, and podcaster.
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#ChasingExcellence
The person that’s looking to open an affiliate make sure that this is 100% what you want to do and that your biggest goal is to create a community and create a inclusive space where people feel like they can be vulnerable where they want to be coached and where
Whoever this person is is ready to give everything that they have in the beginning of owning a small business I don’t think it’s specific to CrossFit I think that anybody that wants to start a small business at any time needs to be prepared to give everything to that
Small business hello and welome welcome to another episode of chasing Excellence every week on the show we dedicate some time to exploring how we can live a life of Better Health and increased fulfillment we answer your questions about the five factors of Health dive deep on living a life of excellence and
Explore the strategies and Frameworks to help us chase which really matters my name is Patrick crumming here as always with Mr Ben berson and we are joined this week by friend of the show Max Isaac how are you Max great happy to be here uh like we said before enjoying a a
No snow snow day so uh that’s right we were supposed to get a bunch of snow up here in the Northeast and we got exactly none uh um max you you were on the show I should have done a little research two or three years ago that was the last
Time we you you joined us we I’m excited to have you back we’re going to do something that we did a handful of times last year which is just we’re going to have as I call them Friends of the show and they’re just going to you guys just
Going to you’re just going to answer questions as we normally do here on the show so we’re just going to do our normal format so this week we’ve got we’re going to focus on JY and coaching because Max you’re the coowner of CrossFit tilt uh Ben obviously you’ve
Been in a gym once or twice so we’re going to focus on Affiliates and coaching this time around that’s kind of what we’re going to focus on this week so we’ve got a few coaching focused listener questions one about coaching during eoms and tatas the other about balancing one’s own training time with
Being available to help members when they need it our workout our main chat is going to be another listener question but this one about advice for folks looking to open a CrossFit affiliate in 2024 and then we’ll wrap up with a round of Hopper talk where we’ll talk about
Whether it’s worth being being alive after your 20s are over that’s what we’re doing uh oh my God how like so that is definitely written by it’s got to be written by like a teenager that’s right like no one know over 30 would be like
Yeah it’s time to hang it up yeah just hang it up this isn’t worth it anymore uh real quick though uh a listener sent us a question DK he says hello was wondering if there’s any consideration to a membersonly podcast uh with no commercials and sponsors and the answer
To that d K is yes if you head to www. chasing excellence. email get on the list and then jump into the premium every week on Tuesdays we send out an email with an adree sponsor free uh version of theep of the episode so there
You go all right warm up we start each uh each episode with your questions about the five factors of Health those few fundamental fundamental behaviors that most positively affect our performance vitality and Longevity those five factors are how we eat how we move how we think how we connect and how we
Recover as I said we’ve got two questions both coaching focused this first one is from Randy it’s in our move category I’ve been a CrossFit coach for almost 12 years and one of the one of my only pet peeves aside from the Sumo deadlift High Poole being one of the
Nine foundational movements is when imams and tatas are programmed I find myself transforming into a really great clock watcher and countd Downer in small increments and I know I’m missing opportunities to offer Corrections on movement or even encouragement from uh for sound form my question is do we
Continue to program these time domains I do see their value in training or do we leave them out and exchange them for longer duration eoms like eoms on the two or 3 minute and use tatas for warm-ups and skill work instead Max you’re you’re our guest I’ll
Let you go first oh great um I’d say definitely don’t stop programming these time domains I’ll use the uh the eom as the first example and I’ll just use like a a weightlifting class I love eoms for weightlifting I think it keeps people engaged keep keeps people interesting I
Think you could fall fall victim to being a clock watcher if you didn’t go in it with a plan if you do go in it with a plan it is um you’re taking each minute and focusing on two athletes and you’re saying Ben you’re going to go the
3-21 go Patrick you’re going to go at a 30- second delay and inside of let’s say a 20 minute eom or we did a 30 minute one where there was uh High hand clean hang clean and regular clean so 30 minutes essentially you could see 60
Athletes in those in those 30 minutes if you break it down like that now if you don’t do that then it’s kind of like when you’re trying to correct movement when you see everything but you see nothing so if you have no no focal point there then it could certainly um be like
That and then the the Tabata thing I always think about the the workout Tabata that I pick one movement that I’m really going to focus on during that workout and that’s where I’m really going to put uh my effort last piece is this is why it’s could be really
Important to have different timers programmed into whatever timer you use at your gym because you could essentially take that part out of the equation Max and I have been together for a long time and we’ve coached together for a long time and um so we’re going to have similar viewpoints on this
Um I but I will say that I I see both sides of it and I love the question from Randy uh because it means that he wants to coach and he understands what coaching is about and I think that’s really just that’s what it’s it’s phenomenal cuz I think most people just default
To the you know the the clock watcher at best like most most coaches you know are feel like they’re there just kind of like roam the room and not necess maybe a little bit of cheerleading and support and ry’s obviously um interested in helping people move better um and he
Feels like he’s pulled away from that when he has to look at the clock you know there’s a couple easy fixes to that as Max alluded to you can get you know um you can get there’s a lot of different options now for clock and
Music to time up to it you can get tobata timers that actually like it’ll match up to the song and the song will go down and up in volume so you can get yourself away from that um as Max said there is uh it it can provide opportunities as well because you can
Get people uh kind of moving at certain times and really kind of dial in what you’re looking at actually be an advantage um but there’s um you know I’m not a huge I I will say I’m not a huge fan of the Tabata protocol in class I like it for
Variance sake and making it a little bit different but I’m kind of with Randy on this is I would rather have um a longer space and as Max said when you have somebody people moving for a minute um it really does give you a big opportunity to to work with people
Particularly in a weightlifting environment where you can have these 1 two 3 4 athletes going on the Zero in the minute and the next one’s going on the 10 or the 15 and so on gives you a really good opportunity to work with people individually um but I wouldn’t remove
This all together as Max said like there’s you know the great workouts like the Tata this Tata that um which a bunch of body weight movements are really fun and uh cool workouts Tata on some sort of cardio machine is phenomenal but what’s kind of cool about
That is like I don’t want to like gloss over but there’s less technique on machines than there is you know with I wouldn’t necessarily do Tabata you know overhead squat um or like the body weight movements are tatas and um the fight fight on bad is such an
Incredible awesome workout and that’s on the minute so I don’t think the on the minute format is wrong let’s just start with that or end with that I don’t think it’s wrong um but but I do think that there’s greater opportunities for coaches with longer time domains but um
I would not ask them all together and I think that if it just lived as a little pet peeve that’s fine like just like let it be the kind of thing that bugs you a little bit but also accept that if it shows up once every three four five
Weeks it’s not the end of the world for your affiliate for your programming for your coaching the development of your athlet if that’s what you’re doing four days a week I think we have some issues yeah I think um really really great point there on um oh hold on I just I
Just lost it for a second I’m gonna I’m gonna bring it back here okay two things one I want to give a shout out to a friend of mine and a listener Jay who runs Tabata songs they make music that have Tabata timers in it but they they
Make like popular songs into Tabata song so just a shout out to him because he listens to the show and he’s good you you you just J joged my memory for a second second it’s preparation that’s what Ben just spoke about like the Tabata songs is when you have these
Opportunities with these imams prep means so much more having the playlist queued up you’re essentially taking all these little things out of the way so you’re not fiddling for a phone you’re not looking for this you have everything set so then like and again like you said
Ben it’s like you know if it’s once every couple weeks it’s going to be totally awesome the other thing I was realize how much does Randy hate the workout fight on bad because not only is it it also has assuma of high pulse I know well and I was like it’s a great
Workout and Randy’s there like stabbing himself in the eye with a pen like it’s not it’s an imom and it has high but here’s like if you’re gonna do those I allow and I talk to my coaches about this and I know Max does the same there are workouts that we we that’s
That is the role like you don’t have to be Hawkeye um um movements King every single time you’re working with your athletes there can be a time and a place to just create the race you know just like let’s freaking go and make us like super exciting Max does this as well as
Anybody and there’s other times that you should be the the the way the workout is structur the way we can do this is be the clock watcher because you can build so much excitement and so much hype with it so not every single day and I think
If every single day is you know waiting your heels knees out lumbar curve get depth try you’re not going to have any members exactly right so every now and then you just kind of like you just kind of like um bust open the doors flip over the poker tables and let’s
Rumble and are there are are there movements specifically in on those days that are better than not you know cuz to your point are there are there better movements where it’s like there’s just not a lot for me to coach here so that’s it’s the obvious ones like uh like we do
A lot of biking as every as people know but one of the reasons I like biking so let me back so biking would be an obvious one because while there is a lot of skill I’m not super fit but I can hang with most of the big dogs in a
Cycling workout um because I spent so much time on a bike being a triathlete um so there is technique but everything lives on a spectrum right and that’s the lower technique side of things fixed pedals fixed range of motion so here’s the other part is when we talk about
Maximizing intensity for athletes there is an inverse relationship between intensity and technique so the example of that is if we had an athlete come in that had um you know really really limited mobility and really bad body awareness and um not a lot of um um experience with a barbell and you guys
Have all seen this and we have them overhead squat like you know like they get start to get down like three four five inches they get you know and all a sudden their elbows start to bend the bar comes out in front of them their knees are caving in their hips start to
Swing to one side and their on one toe it’s like yeah we we can’t overhead we can’t we can’t work hard because there’s too much technique involved with that athlete so this is why one of the things that like if I’m working with you know high level athletes people are trying to
Make it to the CrossFit Games the best high intensity ones are the lowest technique ones there’s that so like you can rock and roll intensity with burpees and uh um a biking like put him on a fan bike in burpees AKA Death Race it’s a reason it’s such a hard workout you can
Go so so hard on that now people in our space and the normal people that have been like doing this for a long time they have Proficiency in the majority of the movement so majority of the movements fall into that but there’s a there’s a a a non-nominal percentage of
Your members that aren’t in that boat essentially if you’re always working with high intensity you they don’t I’m sorry High technique requirements they don’t get to work hard that’s that’s the the the example of that is okay so we’re going to do muscleups today but you are going to work on ring
Transitions what you’re saying is that person is not going to work hard that day right it’s it’s that’s the case you and and the workout is we’re going to program Amanda in they don’t get to work hard on the squat snatches they don’t get to work hard on the muscleups
Because we’re going to work so much on the technique side so there is a time and place to as we said bust open the barn doors you know put the Metallica on and rock and roll it should not be on the days that you’re doing Amanda yeah
That’s that’s a that’s a really good point and I think it’s something that’s really hard to manage as a coach which is how do you give somebody that Amanda experience who doesn’t have the skill you know like that I think that workout is such a perfect example because it’s
Has a short time domain so it has this great opportunity to do a lot of skill and technique work maybe before the 32 one go but then when the 32 one go happens how are we going to give that athlete like you said that feeling of intensity and that dose of intensity you
Know my mind immediately goes to yeah you know like on the muscleup side like let’s work some of that muscleup transition stuff before like you could even run and shoot this is really full circle here like let’s do a little eom before the workout with some snatch technique with some ring muscleup
Technique but now we’re going to do the workout and we’re going to do Burpee pull-ups right like let’s you know like let’s let’s give them this feeling of intensity because you’re you’re so right the there there there’s one category of athlete that Amanda’s a Sprint and that’s a very very small percentage
Right but for for the general public you know Amanda is something where people who are doing it as prescribed are doing either singles on the squat snatch and they’re breaking the muscle up so again I think it’s um yeah just great example the the number of people that Amanda is
A Sprint for rounded to the closest whole number is zero like great great workout I think that’s like such like a yeah and that’s why Max’s absolutely right so yeah and let’s do Burpee pull-ups and you know for a person with super limited goblet squats with a dumbbell to a butt to a
Box you know just like that everything and then they get to work hard yeah goblet squats are great all right everything’s awesome everything is awesome all right let’s move to our our second question we got it from Darren it’s in our think bucket this is what he
Said I am a CrossFit coach that loves taking class regularly we use com train gym and also follow the open and games track in uh the com Train app I love coaching and helping our members inside and outside of class I also love competing in the sport of CrossFit and
Have Ambitions to reach higher levels within the sport R gym is very coachable and I love the amount of feedback our athletes are willing to receive from us sometimes however I catch myself after class doing some extra work and we’ll see an athlete struggling with a certain
Movement um like a power clean for example it’s a packed class of 20 people with one coach and I feel somewhat obligated as a coach although not on the floor to help him uh get his form down a little bit better this however Takes Me Away from finishing my Afterparty uh and
Leaves me feeling like I didn’t give enough attention to my own training how can I better find this balance to make sure I’m coaching and helping my members when they need it while also ensuring that I’m giving my all to my training as well Max you’re the guest rock and roll
Oh this is this is such a great question I think there’s a lot to unpack here um oh that’s such a word that we use a lot that we’ve been called out for love it oh sorry unack okay well my friend that listens to the show he’s gonna talk like
Rick from the cape he’s like whenever I see him now he’s like let’s unpack that let’s unpack that okay let’s break it down um I’m just calling ourselves out on it yeah so I think my my biggest piece is this is what do you really want to do I
There there’s so much I don’t want to just Bogart the mic um what do you really want to do like if your if your goal is to become the absolute best coach then be the absolute best coach you know I think that the question that um they ask is one of the hardest
Questions which is how do you balance being a spectacular coach and a highlevel athlete I’m not really sure that’s possible I really um and this is I know we’re going to get into the talk about opening an affiliate and this will segue nicely into it I don’t think it’s possible I think that
If your goal is to really be the absolute best coach yes you’re going to stay fit and you can stay really freaking fit taking class and then you know I’ve done you know adding in like 10 minutes of something at night but if you’re really going to be the best coach
Be the best coach take class and then and prioritize your members that’s literally a conversation that Ben and LJ had with me 10 years ago which is what do you want to do you know you want to be you want to be the best coach you
Want to be the best athlete I knew I could never be the best athlete because that wasn’t my priority so that’s uh yeah that’s that’s my two cents spot on I think it’s it’s exactly right you can’t you can’t be grad in two two categories so
Um um here would be my take on that is you can’t be GR in two categories so I think you can do both though and what a cool opportunity for you to work with on how you know um you know you call it the minimal viable CU like how little can
You do how little can you say to cause a change in that athlete so like I I you know if if I see um somebody that could use little tweak you know I do a lot of stuff after um a before and after I coach and take classes I do a lot of
Filming for comp train um I do the accessory work I do the other stuff as well um but I’ll see people doing stuff and I and just really quickly what is a you know GPS CU that you could give them that would make a meaningful change that
They could probably use and it doesn’t have to be every time you work with an athlete okay let’s put the barbell down and let’s pick up a PVC and let’s start from ground one and work through all these different progressions and it could be just like a really quick little
Thing and that’s the challenge that you want to be able to like that’s when you work on that stuff it’s you’re you’re not going to go and spend five six 11 12 minutes with that athlete you’re going to do it in you know a dozen seconds
Like what can you do really quickly and then go do the thing yeah go for it no that’s uh that’s a really good point because part of this question was you know this is in the middle of class the the athletes taking a class and the coach is on the sideline you you’re
You’re also now talking about the flow of the class right and maybe possibly taking attention away from what what the the floor coach is doing so you know Ben you’re spot on with okay what can I do in 15 seconds you know like what Quick actionable Queue can I give you know in
This person’s obviously bought in right like this is yeah right without even knowing who this coach is like you’re doing it you’re doing the thing you’re you’re you’re on the sidelines doing a little bit extra and you’re concerned about a couple people in class that’s that’s a spectacular person so I think
Um because that then it just opens the conversation for for more things outside of class right that that person finishes class hey Patrick you know awesome job with bringing those elbows through I know we just chat for a minute I saw you doing this this really well and again it
Just builds more more buying more confidence in the relationship uh more opportunity to help this athlete right and and also shows that athlete like wow this coach like really cares you know Ben Ben was doing some accessory stuff and he took took the time away to you
Know to to help with that so yeah I I think that um the the person really cares obviously but he cares you know like but you don’t need to this would be the thing is like how quick and how minimal but also it’s such an opportunity to work G different
Coaching things that like can you do it without using any words can you like make eye content as Max said like good job getting your elbows through exactly just like really quickly just be like yo yo and just like just flash your elbows up a couple times and then or like you
Know point and go like knees out like move your like whatever it is maybe you’re like stealing signs for like for like baseball or something you know but it’s like it gives it’s an opportunity it’s that’s what this is and it’s a chance for you to work on with with different um
Coaching um than maybe you normally do can you do it and you said one thing you said one thing that might be worth clarifying GPS Q can you just explain what that is because that that feels important especially in the context of like you’ve got 10 seconds 15 seconds
How do you make that the most effective Q possible I know it’s something we’ve talked about in years past but it’s it’s been a minute a a a GPS Q is um very short and uh clear and directive just like your GPS does your GPS goes five
100 feet turn right it doesn’t say any there’s no fluff in the GPS Q um and that’s what you want to do as well it um it goes name body part Direction so Patrick knees out Max elbows up Sarah eyes forward Bill heels down like it’s like the the fastest most directive way
That you can cue an athlete so you know you start there you see someone doing that you go like just as you’re you know you see them across the room and you’re just like you know Sarah elbows up elbows up and it’s like we can start
There love that all right we’re going to wrap it up there thank you everybody out there for your questions best way to get them in to a future episode is head to www. chasing excellence. email every Friday we send out an email with the new
Episode uh as well as a form that you can submit your own questions and we thank you in advance we’re going to be back in a moment with a convers about uh opening a CrossFit affiliate in 2024 but first a quick word of thanks from a few
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A $1 per month trial period at shopify.com Excellence shopify.com Excellence to level up your your business today our workout this week is a question from Courtney this is kind of a follow along to an episode Ben you and I did I don’t know a month maybe six
Weeks ago now she said I loved your talk on the state of Cross of the CrossFit affiliate I’d love to hear your thoughts on the State of Affairs for perspective new gym owners I’ve wanted to open my own gym for years and I’ve been thinking more seriously about it in the past few
Months many resources out there are from affiliate owners who started their gyms 10 plus years ago things are quite different now there are lots of CrossFit Gyms and CrossFit like gyms I don’t think that means there isn’t room for new gyms but I’m curious maybe how you
Or Ben would approach and you Max of course would approach opening a new gym in 2024 and what you’d recommend to somebody thinking about it for reference I’m in the I’m in North America so not capitalizing on the European CrossFit boom times that you mentioned um this is
Kind of why I wanted to have you on the show Max uh I know one of the things that you guys uh are doing it tilt have done it tilt is look for gyms expand what you’re doing with tilt and so I thought you’d between you and Ben have a
Great perspective on um not only the current state of the the Affiliates but also perhaps what it could look like what it should look like as we go forward for um folks who do currently own gyms but of course like Courtney folks who are thinking about is this
Still a realistic option for me for us is there still all of the upside that perhaps we the three of us saw when we first got into CrossFit so with that as context and the question Max I’d love to get your thoughts start to to start and
Then we’ll go from there yeah I think there’s never a better time than now to to open an affiliate I think that specifically coming out of the pandemic uh in-person Fitness is I mean it’s just at an all-time high I think that you know people found out yeah we can work
Out in our garage we can work out in front of a screen and it’s totally fine when that’s the only option that we have but now that people are back in the gym it’s something that we’ve always known to be true it’s the absolute best you cannot recre create the feeling of
Working out next to somebody being coached by somebody the the vibe the energy that you get from uh a really wonderfully coached CrossFit class or group fitness class I think with that said the person that’s looking to open an affiliate like make sure that this is
100% what you want to do and that your biggest goal is to create a community and create an inclusive space where people feel like they can be vulnerable where they want to be coached and where whoever this person is is ready to give everything that they have in the
Beginning of owning a small business I don’t think it’s specific to CrossFit I think that anybody that wants to start a small business at any time needs to be prepared to give everything to that small business I think another important thing and this is something um that Ben
And and LJ helped me figure out at a at a really early early age in my I guess entrepreneurial career starting a gym is know what you’re good at and know what you’re you’re not good at and and what you need help with and lean into lean
Into the things that that you are really good at and recognize that you probably can’t do everything really well and hopefully build a support system around you that you can either have inperson help or right now this is the other thing there’s so many options of you know virtual assistance and all these
Other tools that you could use um to to help in in areas where you don’t feel proficient so short answer answer is hell yeah like if you want to open a gym and this is what you want to do you should do it yeah um I I I love what you said there
Max uh the first one is so first I think that she’s asking two questions the first one should I open a gym and the next one is like if I do open a gym should it be a CrossFit gym that’s the way I I interpreted that um so in terms
Of the opening the gym what Max was just saying there love it so much in terms of the the timing and the people and coming out of the pandemic and how awesome it is to work get you know work out together in groups but what I really
Loved is twofold first one is if you’re like ask yourself if this is are what you’re going to do 100% all in like it is you know it’s it’s so much like the you know the Gary Vees and the herois and all these guys it’s like yeah it
Talking about like work harder work harder work harder um I’m not going to say it’s all that but it’s not not that you have to work really hard like you have to work re you have to be ready like I wouldn’t go and open a gym May saying this the other way
I wouldn’t go and open a gym right now if you’re going to go and open it as a hobby meaning you’re a firefighter and you’re going to like run your gym in on the the the one or two days that you have off a week or you’re a
Pharmaceutical sales rep and you spend a lot of time not doing the thing I’m just saying that cuz my brother’s a pharmaceutical sales rep and I know what how much free time he has um and you have like this free time to do this or you’re a teacher and you’re done at 3:00
So you can go and be there all after like entrepreneurship is a Max at entrepreneurship is hard it’s it’s hard now it’s amazing it’s so rewarding and how cool is it that we get to do it with the thing that we’re most passionate about we’re not opening businesses you
Know selling Widgets or picking up trash we’re doing doing it like the thing that we would do if we were doing this for free like that’s for real so that’s so amazing doesn’t mean it’s easy and I think people look at the affiliate model or the small gym Boutique fitness model
And go okay so wow like I rent a space I buy some equipment get some coaches run some classes and wow if if members are going to pay 150 bucks and I get 150 members and my rent is this and it cost me this and Equipment whoa like there’s
A real big Like A lot’s going to drop to the bottom line and I just don’t think people go in with their eyes wide open in terms of the totality of what entrepreneurship actually entails so that’s the first one is Max nailed it is
You got to be ready to go like all in but then the other part is what he said it was kind of like almost under his breath but I know it’s what he believes in so much go in to to create a community where people are willing to be
Vulnerable that was Max’s words like like I want to swear because I’m like like effing like that’s so good that is so good like that’s what you’re creating are you willing to go create that thing we want to put the work in to create that because if you’re there to like get
People to do thrusters and run like I don’t think that’s going to be the thing and then last thing before is I just want to double down on what he said as well is if know your strengths and your weaknesses the biggest thing that I think that people Miss in our
Space is because we love the fitness so much and we think that that’s what it is but we have to recognize that it’s more than that you have to be gym smart and business smart and if you got the gym smart meaning like you know how to coach
Classes and put on a great experience connect with people get them to move better it doesn’t necessarily mean that you have the business smart and that’s not a bad thing but work with other people that do and that doesn’t mean you got to get a business partner as Max just said there
Is so many people that you can Outsource this stuff too so do a fractional CFO like get somebody to take care of the finances like if you don’t have somebody to take care of the finances get somebody else to on a part-time basis to run the the reports and the books and
Manage membership if that’s not your jam because without those two things dialed in you will not be successful you’ll you’ll push that you’ll push the failure Place back farther if you run great classes and a great experience but you will not be successful in the long run
Unless you have at those two and those are just two nailed you know the a lot of the gyms that Max and I have opened um have been rollups meaning that we’ve taken struggling um gems a big reason that they’re Str is one of two things either it’s the experience side meaning
That you know you gotta be gym smart so either they don’t have the gym smart or business smart meaning they don’t really know how many members they have they don’t know how much they’re actually expenses are they don’t know where the money’s going they don’t know who hasn’t
Showed up they don’t know um how much they’re supposed to be spending on payroll and how much this goes to payroll taxes and um they’re not setting themselves up for a um a a a time of scarcity that you have to be able to do both those things yeah the the other
Thing that that you’re talking about there is like burnout right and this is but burnout can be avoided like you said by acknowledging these strengths and weaknesses early on in building things things to help prevent you know being quote unquote burnt out right so for for me it was really built
In you know um having people like like you but also having LJ who’s who’s our business partner who his background is this this financial side helped prevent that that part of it um one thing and then I I’ll pass it back to you because I know you asked the question like
Should I open a CrossFit Jim and yes um I love CrossFit forever as it has changed my life given me the life that I have has done everything for me I will never stop beating that drum but the thing that you talked about is like yeah if you think you’re your coach and
Thrusters and pull-ups like you’re not actually Co coaching thrusters and pull-ups crossfit’s the vehicle right like CrossFit is the thing that is going to like we we’re talking about vulnerability like CrossFit is the thing that you’re going to get to see your members true colors and help them
Actually lead Better Lives you know the the the fitness part is is really important but it’s like it’s it’s like it’s like the gateway drug to like the really really really good stuff and I really don’t think that you can that you can get there unless you experience the
The feeling of doing CrossFit like the actual feeling of of that intensity the the idea that on Monday you can snatch on Tuesday you can work on toad toar Wednesday you can work on your squat it it creates this opportunity where only coachable people only people that are
Looking to to be better and to help others be better are in these CrossFit Gyms it it it seeks out unique people that understand that they can’t do this on their own not because they’re not strong enough but but because they know they can be better with others right and
That’s let me yeah let me um in terms of that I love um with the um snatching and the working hard and all that stuff and doing the CrossFit that’s the the CrossFit the methodology for sure like let’s um um what about the CrossFit itself right now what would you say um
In terms of that so somebody is going to open up a cuz I think the words that um Courtney used was uh CrossFit like so imagine somebody wants open up and they’re going to they’re going to buy the rowers they’re going to buy the bumper plates they’re going to do the
Burpees they’re going to do the power cleans they’re going to do the um CrossFit like training right um but they’re going to she’s going to call it Courtney fit um what would you say like what’s the advantage of um being a CrossFit affiliate um in
2024 I think it’s yet to be seen right I think that there’s a lot of changes that are happening but clearly there’s a lot of effort and resources that are that are being um I think that are being pulled together right now I’d say from
10 years ago to now there’s so much more out there for the CrossFit affiliate owner right whether it’s from the toolkit like there there are just all these different things that crossfit’s offering I mean I I know for me it just I could it just doesn’t even feel honest
To me like it it it just it’s not even about like what what CrossFit can do for me it’s the fact that like it’s CrossFit and I just don’t think that I could call it anything anything but that I was just uh in Europe and there’s a lot like um
This past weekend and there’s a this is a big conversation this came up a lot I was talking to you know about 150 gym owners and this was a big point of conversation which is hey like um you know it’s going to be $4,000 for me to
Do this next year um there’s um you know we can do the thrusters and the burpees and you know rowing um and we can call it you know uh Maximus Fitness or we can you know do that I’m listening and they don’t have the um they don’t have the relationship with
Crossfit they don’t have the Legacy that you have and I have that we grew up with this thing and we have this loyalty to this thing and they we’ve we’ve we would know it any other way but that’s not the case anymore like people are coming to
It now this is every like this type of training U yes CrossFit created it CrossFit revolutionized it um but this is what happened with revolutions is what was once new and revolutionary is now the norm so this is how people train so this is like this is how people train
So there’s all these Boutique Fitness Gyms that I went to one and it’s it’s like what CrossFit did was they changed the face of Fitness for sure for sure I mean like I was a personal trainer and a strength and conditioning coach and you couldn’t find a place that had bumper
Plates they didn’t exist no one knew what a kettle bell was it didn’t exist the word Burpee was so rare like people did not know what that that was CrossFit changed that no one bought rowers like it was like that wasn’t a thing unless
You were a rower and there was two in a globo gym like and nobody went on them but now this is the norm so I think it is a really great question that Courtney’s asking he’s like you know what’s the benefit of being a CrossFit gy at this point because you know
Courtney maybe found this thing a year ago and she did it and she’s like hey I think that you know I I I’m think about opening a gym cool if I figure out yes or no if I say yes the next question is should it be a CrossFit gym um and I
Think that I asked you that because I gave a big long we did a whole podcast on it this was a where basically I gave my point on it um of what I thought and I was really curious to hear hear yours and I think it’s similar which is like
You know if you don’t have this Legacy tie it’s in your blood type thing it’s a little bit yet to be seen you know like I don’t know the answer honestly yeah this is it’s uh you’re setting me up I like it um I should have um you know what’s really
Interesting as as you’re saying it it’s like I can’t even describe why I would never open anything but a CrossFit gym because that’s like you said I just feel it so deep deeply in in my body but the other thing to think about is 10 years
Ago I didn’t use any resources you know like I like from from Crossfit right like it was um I I used you you were my resource you know like I coached under you for you know however long I went to like I told you before every business of
Excellence so you were my resource you know um and so I think for for for newer people it is probably a little bit different but on in that same vein all of those resources now exist through CrossFit right like they’re they’re there are these resources that are offered from Crossfit because not
Everybody has a mentor right not everybody has a a Ben berson that that you can coach under and watch coach every single day and study the way that they coach I mean shoot even you know not to make it too much of a you know it’s not it’s not Thursday but like a
Throwback Thursday is the the coaches that I had back back when we were at CrossFit in I looked up to every single one of them you know these are all CrossFit ogs that I just studied and so I think that right now if you’re looking to open a new affiliate or a new
CrossFit gym like sure you could open up any other gym that’s out there and call it whatever you want but like there’s a lot of learning that has to be done and I think that CrossFit at its core has always been educational company right and so there’s there there are all of
These resources that you need as a coach and I was lucky enough to get it with no pay wall that makes me think of maybe a big question which is that you know when we started when you guys opened your gym the barriers to entry the barriers to
Start was quite literally give us a weekend and however much it was back in 2007 and you’re allowed to open a gym and you’re on your own one of the things that Ben you said when we first had this conversation again a month or two ago
And you sort of just slid it in there we didn’t really unpack it at all there it is again unpack um was like hey maybe the idea isn’t take your L1 open your gym you’re a gym owner now but maybe it’s you know take your L1 go Apprentice
Go work with a gym get your L2 maybe you can’t open a gym until you’re an L3 or L4 is that maybe the Gap that needs to be bridged between where the way it used to be and the way Courtney or what Courtney needs for this to make sense to
Her and everybody else out there like her do we need to build a better road map by saying you don’t get to just open the gym right away once you cross once you pass your level one but you have to do this you’ve got to do this and you’ve
Got to do that and only then will we Grant you the ability to to put the name up on the wall I bet you that is coming down the line I mean it’s already they did they did they did level up to the level two
So you have to have level two now yeah yeah so that that and and also I’m sure Ben would say the same thing like the fitness landscape has changed so much from the you know initial I idea that Glassman had which was you know you get your level one you open your affiliate
And cream Rises to the top right I mean that’s you know the the the best gyms will will Thrive and the other ones will have a hard time to survive right um I think it’s I think it’s changed a lot I um two things on that
I I I hope that what this does is the cream does rise to the top I also hope that what it does is whatever is the opposite of cream I don’t know the sediment whatever it is that falls to the bottom um I think that that will
Happen I think that’s a good thing for the space so I think that this um I think it’ll be a a little bit of a shrinkage in the terms of the number of Affiliates out there which I think will be a good thing um because if it does
The I I hope that what we’re saying is you know that the cream will rise to the top and you know now like the buried entry is a little bit higher and maybe people now like think about going in apprenticing at a place where they can
Find a mentor and learn how to do this in a uh professional manner and they can instead of you know let’s go start a gym you know and just see how this thing goes it’ll be a thing and as as as this The Tide Rises it lifts All Ships and if
The tide being the brand sentiment of what it means to be an affiliate if it if that lifts up that’s what I hope happens in this process is that uh that everyone becomes better business owners they become better coaches the what it means to be a CrossFit affiliate becomes
Elevated that’s what I hope happens through this process and the next part that I was going to say about that is I I think that the opportunity then becomes you don’t need to start these things from scratch and I wouldn’t suggest someone start from scratch but that you do what Max and I
Have done which is you roll up gyms you find gyms that have been struggling because it is so much easier in my mind to turn around a gym that has 50 60 70 80 members that has not been run well and not had coaches been developed and not creating the experience that should
Be there but you’re almost profitable you’re almost there there as opposed to starting from scratch zero and then working the way all the way up to 125 members like take one of these gyms that has 75 80 90 members and is just not making it and put in your infusion of
Life and brand and personality that is the way that I would uh suggest going forward for Courtney as opposed to just going from scratch it’s really challenging and a lot more risk to try to go zero like I would never and even even when Max mentioned the business of Excellence
Seminar it’s not the way I did it I opened my gym with 40 members I had 40 personal training clients that said we’ll come there like not like yeah like we think like no they’re like you open that we’ll come there and I tested it like we went there and did like Park
Workouts and like did workouts in the parking lot and like who’s going to show up it’s like it’s too big of a risk to like you know 2,000 4,000 $88,000 a month in rent but that’s not that you have to do first last and security so
You triple that then month two is coming really quickly so quadruple that what is your monthly rent you have to have quadruple that on day one you also have to get rubber you have to you know get um for the floors you have to get equipment so you’re also opening up with
10 15 20 30 $40,000 of initial investment that’s at the lowest end so at the lowest end you’re doing it somewhere between 20 and 70k at the lowest end you know what’s so interesting though for like a for opening a boutique gym it’s so it’s on
The low end right which is so great right like to open ACR to open you’re adding two zeros like I mean think think about any other of the models that are out there like you just said there there are so many other opportunities to sweat right now right there are so many other
Companies to to and this is why I love the affiliate model you know I I know know one thing you hit on there which was hey you know things are $4,000 um a year right now right which breaks down to like $333 a month where you want to join a
Franchise for company XYZ we’re not going to plug any other Fitness companies on this one um you know you’re you’re you’re needing like a million liquid to to even be considered for for some of these right so um but I I I agree with you in that like doing a
Rollup is way safer and you know Ben you’re a lightning rod coach right and you had 40 people that were that were ready ready to go for you this is also a pretty good like litness test right like if you’re looking to to open a gym and
You’re like I’m gonna open the gym and you you got people banging down the door being like dude when you open that gym day one I’m there yeah you’re like okay well that sounds pretty good and if you say that everybody’s like you sure about
That you don’t want to to go back to school or um no I just I I I think it’s you know I I really would just like I can you get 50 people like you have 50 people on day one that’s not a lot because if you’re going to open up day
One and have run five classes which is not a lot right five classes is like two in the morning a noon and two at night that’s like almost nothing well if you have 50 people and we all know that attendance rates if you’re killing it is
Around % that means 30 people a day across five class you’re have you’ll have six people in a class that’s something that’s something now if you have one or two people in a class what is their experience going to be when they’re in that class I don’t
Think they’re going home like you know just like screaming from the rooftops of how amazing that experience was you have to have like a little bit of this like as Max said are you ready to like 100% dive into creating a community and that’s why I would like for someone like
Courtney be a personal trainer first be a personal trainer and build up your whatever it is Client List small group classes become a groupex instructor somewhere like do it some way here’s the way I would not suggest doing it don’t become a CrossFit coach somewhere else and take their members
That is not the way to do this with Integrity that is not the thing I’m saying I’m saying is like go and build your own business one client at a time somewhere and then and then do it like do it in people’s homes do it in a
Global gym like do it like that’s what I did I started in a global gym and started doing CrossFit with my with my members all a sudden like they were like hey can I bring my friend to this I was like yeah and next thing you know you
Have like two three four people doing this thing and I was like well maybe we could like just I’ll just do like open up to anybody at 8 a.m. anybody can come to this 8 A.M spot for 20 the first um business I opened up was called Ben’s
Fit camp and not the first first actually that’s which embarrassing that wasn’t even the first the first group and we didn’t I didn’t have memberships I had a shoe box and people could drop in any amount of it was like a street performer people drop in any amount of
Money that they wanted to after the workout and that’s how I that’s how I did it awesome that’s really cool uh just to wrap up just maybe and and to summarize a little bit I think you guys came to two really interesting avenues for Courtney and everybody el else like
Her one is the sort of Ben fit Camp Model of build 30 40 50 people who when you say hey I’m thinking of opening an affiliate or a gym will you come with me the answer is yes okay cool then you start a gym not at zero but at 50 or and
It’s kind of why I wanted to have you on here uh Max which is the Tilt model which is I’m not going to start at zero I’m going to start at 75 and I’m going to have a different challenge my challenge will be to re-engage that 75
Member gym fix the books fix The Branding fix the marketing get the coaches on board Etc but what what’s not an option at least based on what we’re talking about here is I’m gonna put down all this money I’m gonna order all this equipment I’m G to put some things on
Facebook and then I’m going to hope that I I get enough people in here before I run out of money and but that one is kind of the way it used to be yeah at least in a a little bit and so that’s that to me is the really interesting
Takeaway here is it’s certainly not don’t open open a CrossFit affiliate but don’t open a CrossFit affiliate and put all your eggs in the single basket of well if I just put CrossFit on the wall and I tell a couple people about it I will be flooded with new members yeah
You know having said that though um I talked to one of the affiliate owners when I was in um Ireland this past week and he um he took over a gym just like we’re talking about and it was like a fake CrossFit gym so they pretended to
Be CrossFit but they weren’t so he went through the affiliation process and in that process he had to remove CrossFit from everything off his website so he could say hey I’m not a CrossFit JY I’d like to be one right right ironic like that’s and when he scraped it his SEO went to
Crap so while you’re saying because you put CrossFit on the walls doesn’t mean they’re going to come and find you but they do it does help it it’s like does helpes which is why it matters which is why it’s still as valuable this is really hard too if you’re Courtney and
You’re going to open up Courtney fit and you don’t have a following how are you getting client number one in the door like right I like I don’t talk about like how many people in your area doe Fitness this is the biggest mistake in terms of the target market is $1.6
Million when million people it’s like no how are you going to get clients one through 10 like specifically like that’s the approach like it’s a very different when you think of it that way love it we’re going to have to wrap it up there um thank you Courtney for that great question
I hope we can continue having these conversations around affiliation because I do think it’s important and it’s something that we haven’t done too much of in the last couple years and and I think it’s valuable so all right we’re going to be back with a quick cool down
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Off on skin.co with the code Excellence give your skin the scientifically proven love it deserves with on skin um I’ve been using ones skin can you tell I think I I it doesn’t look like I have like a glow light on me my skin is just
Glowing I don’t this is just normal it does really nice we’re cooling down here we got a hopper talk which is just when I go to the internet and I find a question that I think is fun and might spark a fun conversation we’ve got um
This is from ask Reddit this is the question to the 30-year-olds whate age of life has been the best years of your life so far here’s my favorite part does it get better after your 20s which I read as is is it worth being alive after your
20s Max I don’t I don’t know how old you are but I think you’re in I think I’m gonna guess you’re in your 30s yeah yeah I’m 37 um that a boy go first does life get better after 20s this is an easy question um I love the life that I’m
Living right now this is something that uh Ben talked to me a while like a while back when I was an athlete for him which is like you know if you live your life in the past you’re always kind of like yearning for what once was and if you’re
Always living your life in the future you’re kind of anxious and so enjoying enjoying where you’re at like I appreciate every part of my life that I’ve lived up to this point and I look back on it fondly but I love the life that I’m living right now you know like
We’re talking about um affiliation and I look back when we started the gym and I know Ben’s talking about it like was crazy it was this grind I loved it but like I’m so happy with what I did then for what I’m able to do right now so I
Think I’m I think I’m living the the best life that I possibly could because of whatever’s happened so I I you know I think it’s more of a perspective question so yeah Ben what are your thoughts I I I um my son asked me this a very similar
Question which I think is really kind of neat and uh along the same lines if you could be one age for the rest of your life what age would you be and I think that’s kind of like a similar type thing but here’s like my quick answer um the
40 40s are the best like um 30s were better than my 20s and 40s are better than my 30s and I’m 47 right now so I’m I’m I’m every year I’m just 10 years older than Max it never changes it’s weird it’s like we might have like the
Same birthday or something it’s crazy right do you guys actually have the same birthday 10 years apart exact same day that’s crazy um I do think I think 40s I really particularly I think early 40s were kind of awesome um I you know there’s that I we’ve
Quoted it here before but I think it’s a words in church heal thing is like in your 20s you’re so concerned what other people think of you in your 40s you stop caring um in your 60s you realize no one’s thinking about you anyway so it’s
Like I I think that in your it’s also I think in your 40s your career gets a a little bit um uh you know what you’re I mean it’s this podcast right but you know what you’re chasing you’re not kind of like all around and uh you get to start of
Think about like climbing your second Mountain if you will yeah so um this the the weirdness of what’s my life going to be in my in your 20s at least for me um and then your 30s like like doing it and figuring it all out and then not to say
In your 40s you have it all figured out at all but it becomes something Beyond you you know it’s uh which I very much feel um I certainly in my 30s and early 40s was very much about like you know we talked on this podcast like achieve
Achieve achieve um and I feel like it’s very much now about um not that it wasn’t before but it really is about you know impact and helping other people and um Family the family thing is just big and maybe I’m just you know you know mhm later to the
Game let me ask you that Pat if you could be any age Patrick for the rest of your life and it means like your physical but also your wisdom at that age so you can’t be 22 but have the wisdom that you have at
37 right so what age would that be so I mean I and I assume that so I think the answer is is clearly would have to be anytime post kids cuz once you once you once you go there there’s no there’s no dreaming of like oh gosh I
Wish I was 27 again and I didn’t have these kids anymore that’s you though I think a lot of people would think that like oh kids are such a burden and like oh and not you know we we’ve had so many conversations it’s obviously I’m with
You on that but yeah I don’t know I hope that not many people feel that way that’s that’s a very sad existence to me for them and especially for their kids um so I guess to answer the the I mean it’s funny because I feel like we’ve
Talked around this a little bit before B but like the answer is today that’s what and in a year from now it’ll probably be today still um and uh so that is likely my answer is you know where we are now where I am now is where if I had to
Choose one it would be here a seven-year-old an almost seven-year old almost four-year-old doing work I really like with people I really like like yeah 20s were fun 30s was fun but I wouldn’t replace this for any of that and one thing that uh and maybe we can wrap it
Up here as you were talking about the thing that popped in my head is like when you’re when you’re in your 20s and maybe even to your 30s to agree the thing that feels scary is well gosh that those 40 they have so few options now like they they have a
Kid they’ve got a mortgage they’ve got a job that they spent a lot of time like the like the options seem to have disappeared for them the novelty seems to have decreased for them and yet at the same time I think that the anxiety of being 20 is that there are so many
Options and there are there are so many possibilities and so many roads that I could take that it’s actually inverted it’s it’s actually scary yeah what you what possibilities there are and I think that’s a part of the whatever the 20 or 30y old anxiety
That does exist it’s like I could do so many things and by the time you get to 30 mid-30s 40s and onwards those options go away for various reasons one cuz you realize that wasn’t wouldn’t have been good for me in any way shape or form or
Like I just can’t do that anymore that’s not an option for me and so having the fewer options creates less worry less anxiety less questions less possibility of regret all of these things and you can just sort of settle into the decisions that you’ve got and the and
The and the one or two roads you’ve got ahead of you not the 15 possibilities yeah uh I think of it in terms you know one of we’ve talked about it before but you know one of my greatest values is freedom and I think that just you’re
It’s as you said there’s an in first relations of of Freedom so in your 20s yeah you could like go and do anything you want careerwise yeah exactly because you’re responsible for yourself and now I’m responsible for uh a family but there’s other freedoms that come along with um you know being more
Experienced and more mature and um having had a uh a career for a couple decades you know they obviously want is to cial Freedom like I can do a lot more things now than I could when I was 24 and you know just trying to start a
Career um and then there’s just the the stuff in terms of life experiences and you know wisdom in terms of the choices and the way you react to things is going to be very different when you’re you know I have a lot more freedom mentally
Because I was very caught up when I was in my 20s in terms what other people thought and now I have freedom to like not care about that that you know not say that I don’t care at all that would be that would be a lie
Cuz it’s still there I can’t wait till I’m 60 and I don’t care at all that’ll be cool but it’s so much less we’ll still be doing this podcast it is so much less than it was and we’ve had similar experiences in terms of like well we’ve talked about why we’re so
Introverted you know in as adolescence and you know um it’s just it’s a this would be so off the radar for me in my you know in my teenage years like jumping on a podcast once a week with you to share my thoughts about anything and everything cuz I I have more freedom
To be able to express like so it’s just this tradeoff right it’s there’s and I like this Freedom more like if I was to trade-off like the freedom to go and um party and get drunk on a Friday night I’ve had both and I get to choose
I I I get to choose which ones I want I don’t choose that type of Freedom anymore I don’t choose the the pleasure seeking freedoms um I want the this Freedom the the freedom that leads to true fulfillments not to get to like true you know like a real chasing
Excellence part of this thing we’re gonna we’re going to lose Max in a second Max I’m gonna give you the last word anything anything on this question you want to throw in there no I like I like all that I think honestly a lot of it comes down to you know the experience
That you’ve gathered throughout throughout your years and sounding like we’re pretty happy with where we’re at right now I like what you just said about about freedom I feel that you know like this actually a lot of this episode is you know we’re talking about you know
Running an affiliate or or being a coach and I just remember early on a as a coach you’re you’re right your freedoms are are different and to be honest when I started I didn’t have a lot of freedom in my in my early 20s you know as a kindergarten teacher coach full-time
Coach early on affiliate owner like where we’re at right now with with the business and the the life that I’m able to live it’s I mean it it also just comes full circle with what you’re what we talked about about like would would you open a CrossFit affiliate like yeah
100% because the freedoms that I have right now are because of CrossFit are because of walking into CrossFit New England 12 years ago on a group on diving into what we were doing you know now here I am at 37 and and I do have real freedoms in my life and Ben you
Touched on it earlier which is like we get to do what we love what I have realized more so than ever right now at 37 is a lot of people that I know and I love don’t do what they love every day and what what they do every day is a
Chore and it’s so incredibly draining and I have never felt anything that other than in the past 10 years of filling others cups while also filling my own because of what we do and that to me like that level of Freedom yeah I wouldn’t trade that for anything you
Know like that’s that’s been the greatest opportunity and the greatest gift that CrossFit has ever given me which is being able to wake up every single day and being like wow I really love this and I really love the people that I’m around and again what what what
That freedom has has done for me it’s yeah it’s spectacular awesome um max I’m really happy that you found something that you can say that to but a little bit of me is sad that you’re not a kindergarten teacher anymore cuz I would really love to have seen you teach
Kindergarteners that bring me joy same same thing as coaching crossfitters it’s legitimately it’s it’s it’s the same thing um I appreciate you thank you Max thank you everybody out there for listening thank you for your ratings and your reviews thank you for sending us your questions if you
Want to do so www. chasing excellence. email link is in the show notes you’ll get an email on Fridays with a link to a form uh and we will try to get it into a future episode we thank you in advance but and I will be back next week for
Another episode of chasing excellence