What Tuchel’s Bayern exit means for Alonso race

Bayern Munich announced on Wednesday morning that head coach Thomas Tuchel and the club will be parting ways at the end of the season. Tuchel replaced Julian Nagelsmann in 2023, initially on a deal until June 2025.

Will Bayern be able to compete with Liverpool in tempting Xabi Alonso to become their new manager in the summer?

Ayo Akinwolere is joined by The Athletic’s German football writer Raphael Honigstein and Nick Miller to discuss what is next for both Bayern and Tuchel.

00:00 Intro
01:35 What happened at Bayern?
03:41 Has Tuchel done anything wrong?
06:48 Did Tuchel believe he could stay past the summer?
08:48 Could Bayern win the Bundesliga in the summer?
10:58 Who could take the Bayern job?
13:05 Xabi Alonso at Leverkusen
16:25 Bayern Munich or Liverpool for Alonso?
20:50 Level of opposition in the Premier League
23:58 What can Alonso possibly do better?
26:21 International management
28:40 Harry Kane’s resilience
31:02 Outro

The Athletic Football Podcast is your essential guide to football’s biggest stories, five times a week this season…

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-athletic-football-podcast/id1488521447
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/69AAB4ojTuK7gwy3ZdQdB9?si=bpegkIl8TNCvQmoj1DBgCA

Subscribe to The Athletic Football Podcast channel 👉 http://bit.ly/athleticuk | 🔔Make sure to enable all push notifications!🔔

The Athletic is currently offering a special price subscription of £2/$2 a month for the first 12 months. To redeem that limited-time-only offer go to 👉 https://theathletic.com/footballpod

Follow The Athletic FC:
Website 👉 https://theathletic.com
Twitter 👉 https://twitter.com/TheAthleticfc
Instagram 👉 https://www.instagram.com/theathleticfc
Facebook 👉 https://www.facebook.com/TheAthleticfc

Follow Tifo Football:
Website 👉 http://tifofootball.com
Twitter 👉 https://twitter.com/TifoFootball_
Facebook 👉 http://facebook.com/TifoFootball
Instagram 👉 http://instagram.com/TifoFootball_
Subscribe to Tifo Football 👉 http://bit.ly/TifoFootball

Thumbnail: Mika Volkmann / Contributor / Getty Images Europe via Getty Images

#bayern #liverpool #bundesliga

Okay for today’s pod we’re joined by Rafa hunstein Rafa Thomas tukul looking to step down as Bayern Munich manager at the end of this season um tell us a bit more as to what went wrong under this current ten of Bayern Munich well things um were off to a bad

Start really because he took over halfway through last season didn’t have a preseason didn’t really have the kind of team that he wanted uh by struggled Bayern got knocked out in the cup they got knocked out in the Champions League they threw away the title only to have it thrown back at

Them and somehow by defa winning it and in the second season things were stable more or less uh results were decent footballing wise not that entertaining but it was okay but everything kind of fell apart in the last couple of weeks starting with that defeat in lusen and then of course the defeat

Against Lazio and a third defeat against bom and team looking completely devoid of any sense of confidence and and Direction and I think what the board have tried to do now by bringing that decision forward if you will is to a say okay you can no longer hide behind the

Fact that you don’t like the coach or whatever he is leaving so it’s down to you now to perform to stop the speculation after every single game is he staying is he leaving and to change a little bit of the momentum and maybe freeing to up to be a

Bit more relaxed and hands off in his approach towards the team I think it’s an interesting theory if you will the problem is if they lose on Saturday you can take all those um deliberations and put them in the bin because because uh the speculation will start again and I think

The board will have to do something at that point yeah I mean we spoke about um tul um not too long ago actually feels like ground hot day um and you were saying you know looks like felt like the writing was on the wall for for Thomas tul but interestingly for the game

Against latzo in Rome I know you look very great and in your poet going out to Rome you were quite optimistic that Bayern Munich were were going to do something there you didn’t see that as a as a that Bayern Munich were going to lose what do you think went wrong for

Bayern Munich in that match and is this a buildup of the the lack of confidence that we’ve seen uh so far um in the last few games under tle yeah I mean you see combination of individual mistakes at the back you see the team really struggling to break down

Opponents that’s been uh a feature of the season they played some quite reactive football at times inviting teams forward and hitting on the break and that looked looked good to point even though it ran counter to bayern’s footballing DNA to a certain extent but then when teams give you the ball and

Say okay now you break us down then they really struggled and that’s where I think TL’s Safety First approach came a little bit unstuck because it felt at times that the players were not doing what they feel is the right thing to do but doing what they feel needs to be

Done because the guy out side otherwise goes crazy on the on the touch line and you know kind of second guessing yourself playing the safe ball not committing man forward in possession these kind of things in the end added up to a team losing losing its identity and

Losing its direction and things kind of fell apart quite quickly to an extent that wasn’t quite forceable but at the same time people close to the dressing room had been saying to me and others this is going to this is going to explode at one

Point this is not going to end well um I guess I should have been less optimistic you’re a football fan after all rough um but you talk about the the dressing room you talk about the toxicity there why keeping on then um if if it’s so untenable why don’t you just

Let him go and find someone in the interim till the end of the season so you can regroup him you know go get the the man you might really want and I want to talk about that a bit later on as well so I don’t think it’s a sense or

It’s the case that everyone in the dressing room absolutely hates him I don’t think it’s it’s gone to that point but there are some key players who I think felt undermined um their performances have become worse and they’re quite happy to see him go I

Think it’s it’s safe to say is it enough for the board to say look we have to get anyone else in even if it’s the kid man it doesn’t matter because people cannot stand to anymore I don’t think we’ve reached that point that’s why in the absence of an

Obvious carer manager a readymade in-house solution where they know he’s going to make everyone feel good people like him players respond him they don’t have this kind of guy so they said Okay a dressing room that’s not happy with to still has enough should have enough professionalism enough intrinsic

Motivation to say you know what doesn’t really matter what this guy says let’s just play our game and let’s just do this but of course it relies to a certain extent on to letting them do that and maybe becoming slightly more hands off in his approach over the next

Few weeks knowing that he’s going maybe he will double down maybe he’ll say you know what um I’ve got nothing to lose I’m going to be even stricter I’m going to put this guy on the bench and that on the bench we will we will find out on Saturday but

Basically it’s a decision made in hope that a positive change can come from it in the absence of any other obvious better ideas at this point I mean Brian released a statement today um could you tell us a little bit more about that and also what you particularly made of that

Statement well the statement uh stressed that this was a sort of a mutual decision these things are never really Mutual but they they played on the fact that they had uh talked about this and but kind of both agreed that this was the way forward and I think this this

Does reflect uh TL’s realization that the position or the situation was probably untenable beyond the summer as well um I don’t think he believed that uh it’s going to be a happy third season there next year the way things are going and uh yeah Yan Christian the CEO

Expressly made the point that he feels now it’s down to the team to take responsibility and to show a reaction um everyone knows what’s happening the cards are on the table and that’s it but the problem with that is as we said the cards are never quite on the table

Because if the next two or three results go go south and they’ve got lzo coming up in what will then certainly be the last remaining important game of the season um they will move move mountains and and lakes in Bavaria to to find a better find a better fit so

This is just a holding pattern if you will um hoping that they can somehow model through until the summer yeah I want to touch on the idea of the players as well I mean look it’s two part twofold right you you’ve got a manager that might have lost a dresser room but

You’ve also got a bunch of very experienced players there who some might say might have lost the hunger is it just solely down to the coach or are Bayern Munich just used to winning I mean there is I’m sure there’s an element of that it’s hard to quantify

How important that is um if you’ve win if you’ve won 11 in a row maybe the 12th season you think okay um let’s take it easy maybe subconsciously you lose a few percentage points that doesn’t explain though how that kind of lifeless energyless um insecure performance also carried over into the Champions

League where there is no such issue everyone wants to win everyone understands that Lazio is is a game that Bayan have to win because they have Ambitions to go deep into competition and then you see the same kind of lifeless energyless bloodless um insecure performance that you saw in the

League a few days before lusen so there might be an element of that but knowing how much pressure there is in buying to perform and what kind of noise and what kind of uh repercussions you have on buying God forbid are only the second best team in

Germany I I’m not sure the players um would consciously make a decision or sort of just feel okay we can get away with it this year we’re just take easy because they cannot they cannot immunic um and you see the drama and you see the incessant headlines

So maybe deep down there’s there’s a factor and maybe the team needs to have more change that was tol’s main idea in the summer and the board were resistance to that change so maybe in a way he was right but ultimately you have to make do

What you have and bring out the best of your players and it’s not really your job then to turn around and said look I told you that these guys are useless to begin with so um here’s you know pay me six million Mar Euros for that

So um It’s a combination of things I don’t think he’s the sole culprit if you will transfer market dealings went went wrong in the summer um not sure they went that right in Winter either they have tons of injuries is that his fault is that the fitness department is it the players

For I can’t tell you but ultimately he’s responsible for the results yeah well he will be leaving at the end of the season um you talk about change zabi Alonzo you made a very good sort of uh I say appeal last time we spoke for him taking the

Bayern job uh is the door open now for zabbi Alonzo to come take this buying job and is it the right job for zabi Alonzo let’s face it um yeah we’ll see um I think it’s got some obvious attractions um Bayern as we alluded to probably need a complete overhaul and to

Put him in charge of that I think would be quite enticing for a manager to really say okay I need this guy I need that guy I’m going to play this way and uh you have car blunch to the extent that you will ever have it at club like

Bayern um the lifestyle in Munich is great the weather is much better than Liverpool you have mountains you have leges uh very good fooder Fest you want if you want it um but of course Bayern uh will be in a fight three-way fight lusen and uh with Liverpool who have a

Huge appeal for very obvious reasons I think what Bayern can do for alono is to to a certain extent guarantee titles early on and I think it’ll make it easier for him in his future career to have that experience under his belt just to finish up that foot uh he

Will kind of have that guarantee of being a winner going into his next job um he might already win of course in lus this year m but I think it leaves his options open if you go if he goes to Liverpool now that probably means he can’t go to

Another Premier League club that probably means um he will be there for foreseeable uh time which is no bad thing at all but I think it probably closes a few doors whereas buying is maybe more transient thing you do it two three years then you move on um you

Become a more rounded coach that’s certainly I think the pitch that Bayern will will present whether he’s amable to that I don’t know yeah I I I look at this sort of Jigsaw and how it fits in um for zabi Alonzo of course it says a lot about his

His coaching Pros that you’ve got two big powerhouses that that are need of a coach but what if he he decides to stay at Leverkusen he hasn’t been there that long takes him into the Champions League wants to explore that then you still got these two teams who haven’t got a top

Coach and then what do Bayern then do then you know um they stay another year and then wait for him to finally be ready I mean there’s still a lot of moving Parts here yeah yeah absolutely it’s um it’s hard to predict which way this is going

To go um Bayan will try Bayan will make him the number one target we we reported that uh in the athletic a few days ago that’s no surprise I think the fact that to’s future his long-term future at least is sorted makes it it easier for B

To go out there quite aggressively and say look you know that he’s leaving everyone knows that he’s leaving we need to make some moves ahead of the summer come do this with us come on board what does it take for you to come um if shabby doesn’t work out then I

Think buy a little bit stuck because don’t think there’s a rade b option there that they fully believe in um they want the specific kind of football which rules out the likes of con and Jose they want ideally somebody who speaks German has some German experience which is a huge bonus for for

Shabi so they will they will really scramble um if if if it doesn’t work out and I read today’s announcement as also an announcement to the rest of the world if you will that everyone knows to is leaving and now we can put the wheels in motion to find a successor uh quite

Quickly yeah very quickly um what then happens to Thomas tul um what next do you think a step away from management I mean Chelsea was a tricky one Bayern Munich now a tricky one no I think he’ll he’ll continue to coach I think he’ll still have a great

Great demand great reputation for what he’s done specifically at Chelsea but even PSG and dortman was successful Bayern Bayern less so but could still finish with um one or two trophies he won The League last year um not convincingly but still it is

A it is a a league win and I think he’ll he’ll buy his time and uh there are big moves of foot in European football this summer and I wouldn’t be surprised if Tomas to ends up at another big Club very soon yeah for sure huge CV and Champions League

Winner as well let’s not forget all right Rafa thanks so much for your time time thank you bye okay let’s move on because joining us now is the Athletics Nick Miller Nick you’ve written a piece about the big decision facing zabbi Alonzo he’s kind of got a great choice

Choosing between Liverpool and Bayern Munich let’s break this down because I said to Rafael herstein just now you know it all those two jobs depend on whether he’s actually available for those jobs but hypothetically give me the argument Bayern or Liverpool for Alonzo yes I mean it’s incredible for

For someone who’s in only in the what second full season as a you know top level coach it’s incredible position for for someone to be in I I almost don’t envy him which is you know it’s very it’s very sort of smallest violent in the world’s territory you know oh know

I’ve got the choice between two of the biggest clubs in the world what a dreadful what a dreadful position to be in but yeah it’s it’s it’s a real it’s an absolutely fascinating choice I mean he’s he’s obviously got um emot a degree of emotional history with both having

Played for both clubs you probably say slightly more with with Liverpool given that he was there longer and the successes there were possibly slightly more unexpected um he’s also got the choice between two brilliant squads I mean you could you you could argue the toss

Between this for for all day but I I would say probably Liverpool have got the um the better individual quality in players um both teams are obviously kind of willing to spend money if he needs certain players and you know if he wants to buy certain players to fit his style of play

Um and so then it comes down I suppose it then comes down to things like what would the expectation be uh both clubs and again you’ve got couple of compete forces there at Bayern he wouldn’t be given as much time probably as he would be at Liverpool there is as Thomas

Tuckle is is is finding out anything other than winning the Bundesliga that’s that’s the sort of base level you know you if you don’t do that then you know you you’re out um but on the other hand he at Liverpool he is replacing their most of trans transformational man since

Shankley one of the most popular man probably the most popular manager since probably dle um so obviously absolutely colossal shoes to fill in that respect um so yeah I mean it’s there’s also the the the kind of the the nature of the challenge which he has to we up both clubs with Bayern

Obviously he sort of he um he is by definition removing the biggest threat to his new job which is himself really by leaving uh Leverkusen to take over Bayern he is I mean Bay Bayern would be favorites for the Bundesliga every season if I was in charge but um

Particularly if um you know you have the guy who as looks like at the moment um is going to be the first guy to kind of topple them since 2012 um so in in that respect it’s maybe slightly less of a a challenge whereas at Liverpool he has the kind of looming

Presence of Manchester City and uh Arsenal doing really well so it’s much it’s going to be a in theory a much more competitive um domestic league as well and then you kind of get down to things like lifestyle he’s obviously lived in both cities before um his family

Apparently enjoyed it in both cities so I mean it’s I haven’t haven’t really given you a definitive like uh answer to which is the better job here but it’s an every every aspect I think of this and and every decision that he has to make about what his next choice is if we’re

Assuming that he does go to one of these clubs and he doesn’t you know as would probably be ideal from a sort of development point of view he doesn’t stay at Leverkusen for another year um he these are two not just because the stature of the two clubs these are two

Incredibly attractive and very in terms of you know which one’s ahead of the other very even jobs that he he has to choose from yeah I I I’ve really thought about that point you made in terms of being given a bit more time to do the

Job and I guess we do have even though the level of opposition’s much more stronger in the Premier League you do get people like you know Mourinho to a certain degree um Guardiola to a certain degree um being given time to get their philosophy across and you’d like to think that

Template might suit him but then what about the ownership of both clubs they’re very very different and then you’ve got this sort of you know American arm to to to Liverpool and yeah I mean what do we think of the ownership in that respect yeah I suppose that’s

The other the other thing that I that I didn’t um mention there is that perhaps one of the sort of ticks in the cons column for Liverpool is that as things stand he doesn’t know who he would be working directly under they don’t have a sporting director yet I think in an from

From the sounds of things in an Ideal World Liverpool would want to appoint a new sporting director or you know someone with that with a roughly equivalent job title before they choose who their manager is but you know this this um announcement well this confirmation seemingly that um tuckle is

Definitely leaving Bayern at the end of the season which I think was you know probably everyone could assume it was going to happen anyway but that this will have quickened or or this would have like made it more urgent that for for Liverpool to kind of tie him down if

They if he is the man they really want but by doing that they are asking Alonzo to to join a club where he doesn’t really know what the the the structure of the hierarchy will be and um you know we we’re not sure necessarily about a a

Couple of the people in the Liverpool hierarchy who would want whether they want to kind of carry on in their current roles for for for much longer so um while while the um the Bayern structure is as you say um a little more chaotic at least he know he probably

Knows who he’s going to be working with in the immediate future anyway um one thing I I pointed out the the top is the permutation that he actually does stay Leverkusen um I put it to Raph hunstein earlier in thinking that what’s to stop him from just getting a bit more

Experience at lusen you know I mean what is looking like an extraordinary season so far why doesn’t he take it to the next level with this Leverkusen team see how far they do in the Champions League for in’s next season which then yet again opens up this merga of you know

Who then coaches Bayern Munich who their coaches you know Liverpool as well yeah I mean it’s I I suppose one way if if we’re kind of assuming that um the Lun are going to win the Bundesliga and we we have been here before in you know assuming that someone else is going to

Win the German title I mean I think we’re you know even those of us who aren’t Dortmund fans were scarred by the last day of of last season so let’s let’s assume let’s assume that Leverkusen win the league he what might enter his thinking is that he he can’t

Realistically really do better than that it’s and it’s probably going to um probably going he can’t probably top that I mean these kind of almost sort of semi- Miracle Seasons where um clubs that you don’t expect to win the league that generally speaking they kind of tail off

The Following season so what he might something that he might factor in is that his stock is never going to be higher than it than it is now and if he wins the Bundesliga this season but then finishes I don’t know sixth seventh or whatever it is next season then he

Suddenly he might be not quite as attractive a candidate for um Liverpool or Bayern or I don’t know Real Madrid or whoever one of one of these other of super clubs that he’s previously played for that might want to might want to hire him so that might kind of factor

Into his thinking but I think probably in an in in an as I as I kind of said in an Ideal World this is a guy who has been phenomenally successful so far you would want a little bit more sort of evidence uh or not evidence is probably

The wrong word but that you would want a little bit more kind of experience I suppose he might maybe he’d be kind of slightly spooked by the Andre villis Bois example where he um he won uh everything at Porto in I think I think it was also his second season as a sort

Of senior you coach of a of a of a first team um he he was very young I think he was younger than alono well I’m sure certainly he was younger than alono is now the he but he then went to a massive club with massive expectations and was

Sacked by the end of the season I think so I don’t that that that would be kind of how it would enter into my way of thinking but that is a number one of the number of reasons why I am not a kind of elite Sports person or manager because

Their brains don’t their brains work very differently to the rest of us so that may not factor into his thinking at all um but you know it’s it’s a possible consideration one thing that struck me um and we were just talking about it before you jumped on the Pod today was

That actually there is a a wider managerial mer around over the summer really um we’ve mentioned Liverpool obviously Bayern Barcelona in there I mean the the Euros are also going to be having a cycle of managers who’ve sort of taken their teams to you know the

Last tenure really or or the Last Dance I should say I mean this opens up quite a lot of options potentially for a a a coach that is in high demand yeah 100% I mean you know this day the stage of his career alono presumably would probably

You would think wouldn’t want a a kind of international job so that would could to Ru that out I think you know Barcelona would be I don’t know whether they they could cidence an next Real Madrid player being their their manager but they would be silly not to kind of investigate it at

Least um uh but yeah it’s going to be pretty could be pretty chaotic we possibly the England job will be available depending on um you know G southgate’s mood and what happens in the summer the Germany jobs going to be available um you know that there there

There were going to there’s going to be a kind of there’s going to be one big nation that completely Flames out in in the summer and um you know there that that job might be available who knows maybe France implode or something like that and Des chars decides that he’s you

Know however long he’s been there is enough so um it’s a kind of Bad season but bad summer for Jurgen klopp to have decided that he he needs some time away because if if he was if he was leaving Liverpool and um was ready to kind of go

Straight into his next job he’d have The Pick of of quite a few he could have the Germany job he could I mean you know if he wanted the buying job he could have the buying job and you know maybe Barcelona as well but yeah hope

Hopefully for his sake he kind of you know spends spends the year drinking drinks with a little Umbrellas of him rather than going diving straight back into it but you know if he wanted to he’s got plenty of options as well that’s the part of the man manager Romer

You definitely would adhere to drinking drinks with umbrellas I like that you’re like me you’re like me very quickly before we finish um I just want to touch on Harry Kane um as we’re talking about Bayern Munich as we’re talking about German Football I mean outstanding season um at Bayern Munich at this

Moment in time um can we just give a little high five to Harry Kane for the resilience he’s he’s been able to show what six different managers in in 18 months or so it’s actually quite phenomenal what he’s doing yeah he seems I mean he’s going through a little bit

Of a slumping form at the moment but he’s still on track to break kind of Bundesliga scoring records that you know only set a couple of seasons ago and we thought would stand for for years but he just seems kind of imperious to sort of outside influences almost you know he he

Just seems to um be able to play at these absurd levels doesn’t really matter who his manager is doesn’t really matter who what kind of team is around him doesn’t really matter how chaotic the situation is around him um maybe it’s there is a sort of steeliness to his personality

And mentality that helps that maybe it kind of helps that um in terms of the the purely on Pitch stuff he is basically two players in one he is this kind of number nine and he’s the number 10 when he feels like it so maybe that’s

A factor in how he’s able to play and not just play but play brilliantly independent of of outside factors but yeah it being dropped into this kind of even though moving to Bayern the Assumption was well okay he’s moving to moving to a club where he’s going to got

A guaranteed league title it’s still an incredibly High pressured environment um it’s still as we kind discussed often quite a chaotic environment but he’s still scoring all these goals um so yeah it’s been quite sort of heartening to to see it that you know he’s you always like to from from a very

English perspective you always like to see English players going somewhere else and and you know um being as good as they were over here um and he’s as I said be beyond the last few weeks where he’s a bit of a dip in form he’s he’s absolutely done that b right

Fantastic Nick thanks so much for joining us and also a quick thank you to rapael hunstein as well who had to drop off earlier on don’t forget to rate and review the podcast and we’ll be back for another episode tomorrow appreciate you listening if you like this video click

Subscribe for more content like this we’ll be joined by the likes of David orstein Matt Slater Adam Crafton car Lanka and plenty more through the season to bring you the inside track to the biggest stories in football if you like to listen to the full episodes for free search the athletic football podcast

Wherever you get your podcast from