Confronting Complicity: Exploring Ordinary Germans’ Roles in the Holocaust

The boys in this photo were more than just neighbors—they were playmates, even friends before the Nazis took power. Unbeknown to them then, hatred and prejudice would destroy their bond. Two were brothers and would flee Germany after their mother’s murder in an antisemitic attack, while another would become a guard at an infamous concentration camp.

Complicity among ordinary Germans took different forms in the Nazi regime’s early years. While some embraced the new anti-Jewish policies, others looked away as the Nazis isolated, impoverished, and assaulted Jews. Join us as we explore the complicity of many Germans in the Holocaust.

Host: Dr. Edna Friedberg, Historian

Guest: Dr. Patricia Heberer Rice, Senior Historian

Learn more about the complicity of neighbors, friends, and other Germans during the Holocaust:
https://exhibitions.ushmm.org/some-were-neighbors

Learn about the experience of German Jews during the Holocaust:
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/german-jews-during-the-holocaust

>> Dr. Edna Friedberg: NINE DECADES AGO, 15-YEAR-OLD JACOB WIENER WATCHED AS THE INFLUENCE OF ANTI-JEWISH NAZI PROPAGANDA AND JEWS — LAWS TARGETING JEWS TOOK HOLD. HIS LIFE-LONG FRIENDS DISTANCED THEMSELVES FROM HIM. THE COMMUNITY HE LOVED SO MUCH CRUMBLED AS EACH FRIEND, EACH TEACHER, NEIGHBOR CHOSE NOT

TO SPEAK UP OR HELP HIS FAMILY. ULTIMATELY, JACOB AND HIS FAMILY FLED, HAVING BEEN TOTALLY ABANDONED BY THOSE THEY HAD KNOWN AND TRUSTED FOR SO LONG. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY. I AM YOUR HOST, HISTORIAN EDNA FRIEDBERG. AND TODAY, WE’LL EXAMINE THE CHOICES THAT SOME ORDINARY

GERMANS MADE IN THE EARLY YEARS OF THE NAZI REGIME, EXPLORING THEIR OPTIONS, THEIR MOTIVATIONS, AND FOR SOME, THEIR COMPLICITY IN THE CRIMES THAT WE NOW CALL THE HOLOCAUST. JOINING US TO HELP UNDERSTAND THIS NUANCED TOPIC IS MY FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE, DR. PATRICIA HEBERER RICE, SENIOR HISTORIAN

HERE AT OUR MUSEUM. HI THERE, PATRICIA. >> Dr. Patricia Heberer Rice: HI, EDNA. IT’S GREAT TO JOIN YOU THIS AFTERNOON. >> Edna: WE’RE ALWAYS GLAD WHEN YOU COME BACK ON THE SHOW. AND VIEWERS, PLEASE POST YOUR QUESTIONS FOR PATRICIA IN THE COMMENTS SECTION AND WE’LL GET

TO AS MANY OF THEM AS WE CAN LIVE. NOW, PATRICIA, IT MIGHT SURPRISE SOME VIEWERS TO LEARN THAT HATRED MAY NOT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THE OVERRIDING MOTIVATION FOR MANY GERMANS TO TURN AGAINST THEIR JEWISH NEIGHBORS, THEIR COLLEAGUES. LOOKING AT THE EXPERIENCE OF JACOB, IN PARTICULAR, HIS

HOMETOWN OF BREMEN WAS PARTICULARLY POLITICALLY LIBERAL. NOT MANY JEWS LIVED THERE AND LOOKING BACK, HE DIDN’T REMEMBER ANTISEMITISM IN HIS LIFE BEFORE THE NAZI RISE TO POWER. WHAT WERE SOME OF THE OTHER REASONS THAT THE NAZI PLATFORM MAY HAVE APPEALED TO MANY GERMANS OTHER THAN ANTISEMITISM?

>> Patricia: RIGHT, AND WHEN WE HEAR THE WORD “NAZI” TODAY, WE KNOW THE END STORY, BUT GERMANS IN 1933, 1934 DIDN’T CONTEMPLATE HOW — I THINK THEY COULDN’T IMAGINE THE EXTREME PATH THAT NAZI LEADERS WOULD TAKE. OF COURSE, THERE WERE ANTISEMITES AND POLITICAL RADICALS WHO AGREED WITH NAZI THEOLOGY AND THEIR ANTI-JEWISH RHETORIC.

BUT A LOT OF GERMANS IN 1933 JUST WANTED A GOVERNMENT THAT WORKED OR AN ECONOMY THAT FUNCTIONED. IN THE 1920s AND 1930s, THE LIVES OF MANY AVERAGE GERMANS REALLY SEEMED OUT OF CONTROL. MILLIONS WERE OUT OF WORK. BREAD LINES LIKE YOU SEE HERE WERE A COMMON SIGHT ACROSS THE

COUNTRY. THE HYPERINFLATION OF THE 1920s HAD WIPED OUT MOST GERMANS’ SAVINGS AND THE GREAT DEPRESSION THAT CAME RIGHT BEHIND IT IN 1929 WITH FURTHER ECONOMIC DEVASTATION. THE GERMAN CURRENCY LOST SO MUCH VALUE AT ONE POINT THAT IT WAS CHEAPER TO USE IT AS WALLPAPER INSTEAD OF BUYING WALLPAPER.

MANY PEOPLE WERE LOOKING FOR SOMEONE STRONG WHO COULD TAKE CONTROL. GERMANS DIDN’T HAVE MUCH CONFIDENCE IN THEIR NEWLY FORMED GOVERNMENT, WHICH WAS A PARLIMENTARY DEMOCRACY, MUCH LIKE THAT WE WOULD SEE IN GREAT BRITAIN TODAY. AND ONE OF THE STRENGTHS OF NAZI PROPAGANDA WAS THAT HITLER AND

PEOPLE AROUND HIM TAILORED THEIR MESSAGES TO THEIR AUDIENCES. HITLER WAS EXTREMELY CHARISMATIC AND HE PROMISED TO RETURN GERMAN TO ITS RIGHTFUL PLACE IN THE WORLD. AND THEY OFTEN SOFT PEDALED THEIR MORE RADICAL IDEAS IN AREAS WHERE THOSE WEREN’T POPULAR. THIS MESSAGE FOR STABILIZATION THEN APPEALED TO A LOT OF GERMANS AND

ALSO LED MANY EARLY NAZI SUPPORTERS TO LOOK PAST THE ANTISEMITIC POLITICAL PLATFORM. >> Edna: SO TO SORT OF EMBRACE THE PARTS THAT RESONATED WITH THEM AND MAYBE IGNORE THE ONES THAT FELT MAYBE UNPLEASANT. BUT THERE WAS THIS PRECARIOUSNESS. I’M STRUCK WHEN YOU SAID THAT

GERMANS WANTED A GOVERNMENT THAT WORKED. THEIR GOVERNMENT KEPT COMING AND GOING. AND THERE WAS VIOLENCE IN THE STREETS AND THEY WANT THE STABILITY AND ORDER, WHICH I THINK IS VERY RELATABLE, AND THE NAZIS PROMISED THAT. SO AGAINST THIS BACKDROP, WE HAVE THIS TEENAGE BOY, JACOB WEINER, AND HIS LIFE AT THE TIME.

GIVE US A SENSE OF WHAT HIS DAY-TO-DAY WOULD HAVE BEEN IN HIS COMMUNITY. >> Patricia: SO JACOB WAS A JEWISH BOY GROWING UP IN THE NORTHERN PORT CITY OF BREMEN. YOU SEE JACOB WITH HIS FAMILY BEFORE THE WAR. HE’S ON THE FAR RIGHT IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH.

JACOB’S FATHER OWNED A SUCCESSFUL BICYCLE SHOP WHICH WAS A GATHERING PLACE FOR HIS CLASSMATES, MOST OF WHOM WERE NOT JEWISH. AND IN THIS PHOTO FROM THE 1920s, WE SEE JACOB STANDING SECOND FROM THE RIGHT. ONE OF HIS BROTHERS, BENNO, IS AT THE FAR LEFT,

AND AMONG THIS GROUP OF FRIENDS, THEY’RE THE ONLY JEWS AND THE BOY SEATED ON THE LEFT IS A FRIEND OF JACOB’S NAMED GUNTHER. HIS PARENTS OWNED A CLEANING STORE RIGHT NEXT TO THE WIENERS’ BIKE SHOP. JACOB DESCRIBED HIS FAMILY AS A HAPPY-GO-LUCKY CROWD WHO

LOVED TO RIDE BIKES AROUND IN THE CITY OF BREMEN. AND JACOB WAS ABOUT 15 WHEN THE NAZIS CAME TO POWER IN 1933. AS WE HEARD HIM SAY AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SHOW, HIS FAMILY WEREN’T TOO CONCERNED INITIALLY WHEN THE NAZIS CAME TO POWER.

WEREN’T CONCERNED SO MUCH ABOUT THIS ANTISEMITIC RHETORIC. AT FIRST, VERY LITTLE CHANGED IN THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS AND EVERYONE, INCLUDING SOME OF JACOB’S TEACHERS, REASSURED HIM THAT THE NAZIS COULDN’T HOLD ONTO POWER FOR VERY LONG AND THAT ALL THIS WOULD PASS.

>> Edna: BUT WE, OF COURSE, KNOW WITH THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT THAT THOSE INITIAL HOPES, THESE REASSURANCES OF SUPPORT, PROVED SHORT-LIVED. WHAT HAPPENED IN THE ENSUING MONTHS AND YEARS? >> Patricia: WELL, JACOB SAID AT THE TIME, AS TIME WENT ON, THAT THE NAZIS REMAINED IN POWER.

THINGS GOT WORSE AND WORSE. ONE OF THE FIRST CHANGES HE NOTICES IS THAT HIS CLASSMATES STOPPED GATHERING AT HIS FATHER’S BICYCLE SHOP. AFTER A WHILE, HIS “ARYAN” FRIENDS, HIS CHRISTIAN FRIENDS, STOPPED TALKING TO HIM AND EVENTUALLY THEY WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY, AS HE SAID, TO AVOID

HIM ON THE STREET, ISOLATING HIM AND HIS FAMILY EVEN MORE. AND I WANT TO PAUSE HERE IN JACOB’S STORY TO MAKE THIS POINT: THERE WERE NO LAWS PREVENTING GERMANS FROM TALKING OR MINGLING WITH GERMAN JEWS. JACOB’S FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS EFFECTIVELY CHOSE TO TURN THEIR

BACKS ON JACOB AND ON HIS FAMILY. AND EVENTUALLY, CUSTOMERS WHO WEREN’T JEWISH STOPPED COMING TO THE BICYCLE SHOP AND JACOB’S FATHER LOST HIS BUSINESS. AND THEY’RE VERY ISOLATED, FEELING VERY ABANDONED, AND THE FAMILY DECIDES IN 1936 TO TRY TO FLEE GERMANY, BUT THIS WASN’T A VERY EASY UNDERTAKING.

IT WASN’T EASY TO GET A VISA TO IMMIGRATE TO MANY COUNTRIES AT THAT TIME, AND IT WAS A VERY SLOW AND COMPLICATED BUREAUCRATIC PROCESS TO DO ALL THE PAPERWORK, WHICH MEANT THEY WERE STILL IN GERMANY IN NOVEMBER 1938 ON KRISTALLNACHT, WHICH WAS A POGROM, A COORDINATED STATE-SPONSORED NIGHT OF

VIOLENCE WHERE NAZIS AND NORMAL CITIZENS ATTACKED JEWISH COMMUNITIES ACROSS GERMANY. AND WE KNOW THAT AT LEAST FIVE PEOPLE WERE MURDERED IN THE TOWN OF BREMEN BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWISH. >> Edna: I’M GOING PAUSE FOR A MOMENT, PATRICIA, IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE EVENT IN JACOB’S LIFE AND THAT

OF SO MANY JEWS TO ACKNOWLEDGE THOUGH, THE VIEWERS WHO ARE WITH US WATCHING AND BEARING WITNESS TO THIS HISTORY. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, FOR TUNING IN FROM LAPINE, OREGON, SAMMAMISH, WASHINGTON, ALBANY, NEW YORK, AND ST. PAUL, MINNESOTA. WE’RE REALLY GLAD THAT YOU’RE

HERE WITH US TODAY TO LEARN AND DISCUSS. SO IN ADDITION TO VIOLENCE AGAINST PROPERTY, PATRICIA, TO VIOLENCE AGAINST PEOPLE AND TO MURDER, ON THAT TERRIBLE NIGHT IN NOVEMBER 1938, AROUND 30,000 JEWISH MEN WERE ALSO ARRESTED AROUND THE COUNTRY. THEY HAD NOT COMMITTED ANY CRIME. THEIR CRIME WAS BEING JEWISH.

THAT NUMBER INCLUDED JACOB, RIGHT? >> Patricia: THAT’S RIGHT, EDNA. JACOB WAS 21 YEARS OLD AT THIS TIME. HE WAS ARRESTED AND SPENT EIGHT DAYS IN JAIL IN WÜRZBURG, BAVARIA ABOUT 400 MILES AWAY FROM BREMEN WHERE HE WAS STUDYING AS A TEACHER — AT A TEACHER’S SEMINARY AT THE TIME

THE VIOLENCE BROKE OUT. AND WHEN HE WAS RELEASED AND FINALLY RETURNED HOME TO BREMEN, HE DISCOVERED THAT HIS MOTHER HAD BEEN SHOT AND KILLED BY NAZIS DURING KRISTALLNACHT. JACOB FOUND OUT FROM A NEIGHBOR THAT THE MEN WHO KILLED HIS MOTHER HAD BEEN CUSTOMERS OF HIS FAMILY’S BICYCLE SHOP.

>> Edna: SO THESE WERE NOT JUST THUGS. I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE I’M UNDERSTANDING CORRECTLY, LIKE THUGS WHO CAME IN FROM OUT OF TOWN, LOOKING TO CAUSE TROUBLE. THIS WAS A PERSONAL CRIME. THESE WERE PEOPLE WHO KNEW HIS MOTHER, KNEW HIS PARENTS,

KNEW HIM, AND JOINED IN AND EVEN ESCALATED VIOLENCE. >> Patricia: YES, EXACTLY. LUCKILY, JACOB’S FATHER WAS NOT HOME DURING KRISTALLNACHT. HE GOT OUT OF TOWN AND WAS SAFE, BUT JACOB’S BROTHER BENNO WAS SENT TO SACHSENHAUSEN CONCENTRATION CAMP. THAT’S NEAR BERLIN. ULTIMATELY HE’S RELEASED AND

JACOB WAS ABLE TO UNITE WITH HIS FATHER AND THREE SIBLINGS WEEKS LATER. AMD IN 1939, ALL OF THEM WERE FINALLY ABLE TO IMMIGRATE TO CANADA. >> Edna: NOW, I WANT TO BE CLEAR THAT THERE WAS NO ORDER TO KILL JEWS ON KRISTALLNACHT, RIGHT, PATRICIA? >> Patricia: THAT’S CORRECT.

>> Edna: SO THESE WERE PEOPLE WHO FOR WHATEVER REASONS, WE CAN’T KNOW, TOOK THE INITIATIVE AND TOOK IT UP A LEVEL IN INTENSITY AND DEADLINESS. I JUST — AGAIN, I CAN’T GET OVER THE DEVASTATING FEELING THAT THE MEMBERS OF THE FAMILY MUST HAVE FELT TO HAVE THEIR WIFE AND

MOTHER MURDERED, AND MURDERED BY PEOPLE THEY KNEW. BUT THE REMAINING MEMBERS OF THE FAMILY PICKED THEMSELVES UP, NAVIGATED ALL THIS HORRIBLE BUREAUCRATIC LABYRINTH AS YOU’VE DESCRIBED AND THEY WENT TO CANADA. EVENTUALLY JACOB MOVED TO THE UNITED STATES NOT FAR FROM HERE, TO THE STATE OF MARYLAND TO STUDY TO BECOME A RABBI.

NOW, PATRICIA, I WANT TO GO BACK TO THAT PHOTO THAT WE SAW EARLIER IN THE PROGRAM OF JACOB AND HIS FRIENDS WITH THEIR BICYCLE. ONE VIEWER NAMED EILEEN ASKED HOW THAT PHOTO SURVIVED THE HOLOCAUST. HOW DID JACOB HAVE IT? COULD YOU TELL US HOW THAT CAME TO BE?

‘CAUSE IT’S ACTUALLY A REALLY POWERFUL STORY. >> Patricia: RIGHT, AND YOU KNOW, THAT’S A GREAT QUESTION BECAUSE, OF COURSE, MANY PEOPLE WHO FLED NAZI GERMANY OR WHO WERE IN THE HOLOCAUST COULDN’T RETAIN A LOT OF PERSONAL ITEMS AND THE WAY THAT JACOB GOT THIS PHOTO IS REALLY INTERESTING.

IT’S A STORY HE ACTUALLY TOLD ME WHEN I WAS FIRST HIRED AT THE MUSEUM IN 1997. IN THAT YEAR, JACOB GOT A LETTER FROM HIS OLD FRIEND GUNTHER. WHOM WE ALREADY MENTIONED, WHO’S IN THE PHOTOGRAPH. JACOB HAD JUST RETURNED FROM A TRIP TO BREMEN. CITY OFFICIALS HAD INVITED HIM

FOR A HOLOCAUST OBSERVANCE IN BREMEN AND HE VISITED THE CITY FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THEY FLED. AND GUNTHER REACHED OUT AFTERWARDS TO SAY HE WAS SORRY FOR HAVING MISSED JACOB’S VISIT AND HE SENT THIS PICTURE ALONG AS A REMINDER OF HOW CLOSE THEY HAD BEEN. NOW, REMEMBER, GUNTHER’S

PARENTS WORKED RIGHT NEXT TO JACOB’S SHOP — HIS FATHER’S SHOP. AND GUNTHER KNEW ABOUT THE MURDER OF JACOB’S BELOVED MOTHER AT THE HANDS OF THE NAZIS. IN HIS LETTER, GUNTHER WANTED TO MAKE IT CLEAR TO JACOB THAT, QUOTE, HE HAD NEVER TOUCHED A JEW. WHEN JACOB WROTE BACK, HE ASKED

GUNTHER WHAT HIS LIFE HAD BEEN LIKE DURING THE WAR AND GUNTHER WROTE HE HAD BEEN A GUARD IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP, IN BERGEN-BELSEN, WHICH IS NOT SO FAR FROM BREMEN. HE THEN EMPHASIZED HE HAD NEVER, QUOTE, NEVER TOUCHED A JEW. AND JACOB WANTED TO LEARN MORE.

HE WANTED TO ASK, WHY THAT JOB? WHY HE TOOK THAT JOB, AND WHETHER HE THOUGHT IT WAS OKAY TO IMPRISON AND KILL JEWS, WHETHER THAT WAS ACCEPTABLE, BUT GUNTHER NEVER RESPONDED AGAIN TO HIS LETTERS. >> Edna: SO HE CARED ENOUGH ABOUT THIS FRIENDSHIP WITH JACOB AND HIS BROTHER

BENNO TO HOLD ONTO THIS PHOTO ALL THESE YEARS TO MAKE THE CONTACT, BUT CLEARLY WAS WRESTLING WITH A LOT OF FEELINGS ABOUT OTHER CHOICES THAT HE MADE. AND I THINK IT’S VERY FASCINATING AND DIFFICULT TO TRY TO IMAGINE THE CALCULATIONS THAT MUST HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH THE MINDS OF

PEOPLE LIKE GUNTHER AND MILLIONS OF OTHER GERMANS TO MAKE THOSE CHOICES, PEOPLE WHO HAD PERSONAL FRIENDSHIPS, EVEN CARING RELATIONSHIPS WITH JEWS, AND THEN LATER BECAME ACTIVELY COMPLICIT IN THEIR PERSECUTION. >> Patricia: RIGHT. >> Edna: I MEAN, IN THE CASE OF GUNTHER, WE DON’T KNOW, RIGHT, IF HIS CLAIM ABOUT

NOT COMMITTING VIOLENT ACTS IS TRUE OR NOT, RIGHT? >> Patricia: RIGHT, EXACTLY, WE DON’T KNOW. WE ONLY HAVE HIS WORD. >> Edna: YEAH, AND IT’S HOW HE CHOSE TO PORTRAY HIMSELF TO HIS OLD FRIEND. PATRICIA, WE BOTH KNEW RABBI WIENER BECAUSE HE WAS A

VOLUNTEER AT THE MUSEUM IN THE LATER PART OF HIS LIFE AND THAT GIVES PARTICULAR INSIGHTS INTO THIS STORY AND THIS PERSONAL HISTORY. I’M GOING TO PAUSE AGAIN, THOUGH, TO WELCOME VIEWERS. WE HAVE, PATRICIA, WATCHING FROM AROUND THE WORLD, TUNING IN FROM MALTA, FROM THE

UNITED KINGDOM, FROM CANADA, FROM THE CITY OF MONTREAL, AND FROM LUBLIN IN POLAND. WE ARE SO GLAD THAT YOU ARE WITH US TODAY. SO PATRICIA, WE WERE JUST SAYING THAT YOU KNEW RABBI WIENER AS A OLDER MAN WHEN HE WAS VOLUNTEERING, BUT IT GOES BEYOND

THAT FOR YOU, THE STORY OF HIS HISTORY, BECAUSE NOT ONLY DO YOU UNDERSTAND HIS FAMILY’S PLIGHT THROUGH THE EYES OF A HISTORIAN, BUT YOU ALSO HAVE YOUR OWN FAMILIAL TIES TO THIS REGION OF GERMANY. YOU HAD RELATIVES WHO LIVED ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF THIS PORT CITY.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT PERSONAL CONNECTION. >> Patricia: RIGHT, MY GRANDFATHER CAME FROM A FAMILY OF MIDDLE CLASS FARMERS WHO LIVED IN THE COUNTRYSIDE OUTSIDE BREMEN, AS YOU SAID, EDNA, WHERE RABBI WIENER ONCE LIVED. MY GRANDFATHER IMMIGRATED TO THE UNITED STATES IN OCTOBER 1923 AT

THE HEIGHT OF HYPERINFLATION IN GERMANY. IN THAT MONTH, AS HE SAILED TO AMERICA, A SLICE OF BREAD LITERALLY COST THOUSANDS OF GERMAN MARKS. AND YOU SEE A PHOTOGRAPH OF MY FAMILY AT ONE OF MY GREAT-AUNT’S WEDDING IN THE SUMMER OF 1938 JUST A FEW MONTHS BEFORE

KRISTALLNACHT. AND WHILE MY GRANDFATHER BECAME AN AMERICAN CITIZEN ACTUALLY IN 1933, ALL THE TIME THIS HISTORY STARTS, ALL OF HIS SIBLINGS AND PARENTS, MY GREAT-GRANDPARENTS, EXPERIENCED THE NAZI RISE AND WORLD WAR II FIRSTHAND. THEY WERE LIKE MANY GERMANS WHO FOUND SOME OF THOSE MESSAGES OF NAZI RHETORIC AND NAZI

MESSAGES ABOUT THE FUTURE APPEALING. THEY WANTED A STRONG LEADER TO SAVE THEIR FAILING ECONOMY. THEY WANTED A STABLE GOVERNMENT. IN THE LETTERS — IN THE TIME BEFORE HITLER COMES TO POWER, THERE HAD BEEN THREE CHANCELLORS, AND SO THREE RULERS, IN LESS THAN THREE YEARS.

IN A LETTER BEFORE THE NAZIS COME TO POWER, MY GREAT UNCLE — ONE OF MY GRANDFATHER’S BROTHERS WROTE, “I’M SORRY, DEAR HINRICH, THAT I’VE BEEN OUT OF TOUCH, BUT WE’RE VOTING EVERY FIVE MINUTES.” BECAUSE IN THOSE DAYS, OF COURSE, THE NAZI GOVERNMENT ROSE — SORRY, BEFORE THE NAZI, THE WEIMAR GOVERNMENTS

ROSE AND COLLAPSED, AND THEY RULED BY EMERGENCY DECREE. THERE WAS NO STABILITY. AND I SUSPECT THAT MY RELATIVES MAY NOT HAVE KNOWN ANY JEWISH PEOPLE AT ALL. IT WAS A RURAL AREA. AND AS WITH MANY INDIVIDUALS IN THAT AREA, ANTISEMITISM WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A PRIMARY DRAW,

BUT CERTAINLY A STABLE ECONOMY WAS. >> Edna: I MEAN, IT’S SUCH A BEAUTIFUL FAMILY PORTRAIT, THAT WEDDING, THE GORGEOUS VEIL, THE CLOTHES, AND IT’S HARD TO KNOW THAT THIS IS NOT EVERYONE’S EXPERIENCE LIVING IN GERMANY AT THE TIME. I’M WONDERING, THOUGH, PATRICIA, THINKING ABOUT YOUR GRANDFATHER,

HE’S AN OCEAN AWAY FROM ALL OF HIS SIBLINGS, HIS PARENTS AS HE WATCHES THESE CONVULSIONS HAPPENING IN HIS HOME COUNTRY. PATRICIA, DID YOU EVER TALK WITH YOUR GRANDFATHER ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN GERMANY AFTER HE LEFT AND THE CHOICES OF HIS LOVED ONES?

>> Patricia: YEAH, I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY, THAT’S A PICTURE OF MYSELF WHEN I WAS 10 WITH MY GRANDPARENTS, WITH MY GRANDFATHER NEXT TO ME. I WAS IN MY LATE TEENS AND BEGAN STUDYING GERMAN HISTORY AND ONE DAY I SAID TO HIM, “GRANDPA, YOU

WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN A NAZI BECAUSE YOU’RE SUCH A GOOD GUY.” AND HE SAID TO ME, “OH, YES, I WOULD HAVE BEEN. I WOULD HAVE BEEN A YOUNG MAN IN 1933 WITH MANY PEOPLE AROUND ME WHO WERE MEMBERS OF THE NAZI PARTY. THEY WOULD HAVE INFLUENCED ME

AND DRAWN ME IN.” AND THAT MOMENT REALLY OPENED MY EYES. I THINK THAT’S ONE REASON I’M SITTING HERE AS A HISTORIAN AT OUR NATIONAL HOLOCAUST MUSEUM. I UNDERSTOOD FOR THE FIRST TIME THAT ORDINARY PEOPLE, EVEN GOOD PEOPLE COULD BE SWEPT AWAY, TO LISTEN TO A DEMAGOGUE LIKE HITLER.

TO SUPPORT A REGIME THAT COMMITTED SO MANY CRIMES IN THEIR NAME. >> Edna: WHAT A POWERFUL MOMENT AND THANK YOU, PATRICIA, FOR SHARING THAT. IT’S AN INTIMATE MOMENT, BUT CLEARLY ALSO VERY IMPRESSIVE THAT YOUR GRANDFATHER WAS AN HONESTLY SELF-REFLECTIVE PERSON

AND COULD SAY, I DON’T THINK THAT I NECESSARILY WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT THAN ANYONE ELSE. I THINK YOU HONOR HIM, IF I MAY SAY, BY YOUR VERY — YOU DON’T AVOID WHEN YOU’RE LOOKING AT THE HISTORY AND YOU LOOK AT IT IN A HUMAN AND HONEST WAY.

>> Patricia: THANK YOU, EDNA. >> Edna: YOUR COMMENTS ARE ALSO RESONATING WITH OUR VIEWERS. A VIEWER NAMED KATE WRITES, “I THINK THESE STORIES ARE SO IMPORTANT TO LEARN FROM THESE PERIODS OF HISTORY. I WISH I COULD TALK TO MY GREAT- GRANDPARENTS AND ASK QUESTIONS.”

AND KATE, I THINK MANY OF US FEEL THAT WAY, EITHER REMEMBERING CONVERSATIONS THAT WE’VE HAD ABOUT UNCOMFORTABLE HISTORY OR QUESTIONS WE WISH WE COULD HAVE ASKED. ANOTHER VIEWER, PATRICIA, IS ANSWERING A QUESTION I’D LIKE TO POSE TO YOU. THERESA WRITES TO ASK, “DO YOU

THINK THERE WAS AN ENTIRE ABSENCE OF A MORAL COMPASS AMONG SOME?” HOW WOULD YOU ANSWER THAT BIG, BIG QUESTION? >> Patricia: I THINK WE’RE GOING TO GET TO SOME OF THAT IN OUR CONVERSATION HERE TODAY. BUT CLEARLY THERE ARE A LOT OF REASONS WHY PEOPLE LOOK AWAY

FROM THIS AS IT GOES ON AROUND THEM. MANY PEOPLE ARE ABSORBED IN THEMSELVES, ESPECIALLY DURING WARTIME. MY FAMILY WAS BEING BOMBED. PART OF THE FAMILY LIVED IN THE PORT CITY OF BREMERHAVEN ABOVE BREMEN AND YOU KNOW, YOU GET — YOUR HUSBAND IS AT WAR AND WHATEVER.

SO YOU LOOK INWARD AND YOU DON’T CARE AS MUCH ABOUT THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU. BUT I THINK THERE WERE ALSO PEOPLE THAT WERE VERY CALLOUS AND CERTAINLY THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO DID BUY INTO ANTISEMITISM, WHO WERE ANTISEMITES, OR WHO DID BUY INTO THIS IDEOLOGY. SO THERE IS MANY MOTIVES FOR

SUPPORTING A NAZI REGIME AS THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS, I THINK. >> Edna: WE HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION I THINK THAT FOLLOWS ON THAT KIND OF COMPLEXITY THAT YOU’RE INTRODUCING, PATRICIA. ONE VIEWER HAS COMMENTED, AND IF YOU COULD SAY WHETHER THIS IS ACCURATE OR NOT, THAT FROM WHAT

THEY’VE READ, CONCENTRATION CAMP DUTY WAS CONSIDERED LIGHT DUTY AND GIVEN TO THOSE WHO WOULDN’T SHOOT PEOPLE. IS THAT TRUE? >> Patricia: I’M NOT SURE ABOUT NOT SHOOTING PEOPLE BECAUSE, OF COURSE, PARTICULARLY IN THE REALLY, REALLY BAD CONCENTRATION CAMPS, PLACES LIKE DACHAU AND BUCHENWALD, PEOPLE WERE SHOT, EVEN IF THEY WEREN’T

TRYING TO ESCAPE. BUT OBVIOUSLY THE CHOICE OF BEING IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP, PERHAPS ON GERMAN SOIL, RECEIVING GOOD PAY AND EXCELLENT RATIONS, EXTRA RATIONS OF THINGS LIKE LIQUOR AND ALCOHOL WERE, YOU KNOW, APPEALING WHEN YOUR ALTERNATE, YOU KNOW, THE ALTERNATIVE IS TO BE A FIGHTER

ESPECIALLY ON THE EASTERN FRONT, ESPECIALLY WHEN THAT WAR, IT TURNS SOUR, YOU KNOW, STARTING IN 1942, LET’S SAY. AND SO CERTAINLY THE CHOICE OF BEING A CONCENTRATION CAMP GUARD WAS PREFERABLE TO THAT AND MANY PEOPLE TOOK IT. YOU KNOW, PERHAPS NOT AS AN IDEOLOGICAL COMPONENT OF THEIR, YOU KNOW,

THEIR MORAL COMPASS, BUT BECAUSE IT PAID WELL. AND IT WAS SAFE DUTY. CLEARLY SOME GUARDS BOUGHT INTO THE NAZI IDEOLOGY WHOLEHEARTEDLY AND THOSE TENDED TO BE THE CRUEL AND SADISTIC ONES. >> Edna: SO SAFE FOR THEMSELVES IN THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE AT PERSONAL RISK. >> Patricia: CORRECT.

>> Edna: SO ACTUALLY YOU’RE KIND OF BRINGING UP THE IDEA THAT THERE ARE SOME WHO ARE TRUE BELIEVERS, LET’S SAY, WHO ARE REALLY IDEOLOGICALLY BUYING INTO THE NAZI PACKAGE, NAZI RACISM, BUT THERE WERE MANY, MANY GERMANS WHO WERE, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY DRIVEN TO KIND OF DO NOTHING, LET’S SAY

NOT OVERTLY HELP, BUT NOT STICK THEIR NECKS OUT FOR THEIR JEWISH FRIENDS OR NEIGHBORS, NOT SPEAK UP, NOT INTERVENE. COULD YOU TELL US MORE ABOUT SOME OF THESE GERMANS WHO I THINK WOULD BE THE LARGER PREPONDERANCE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE BENEFITING, MAYBE, FROM NAZI RULE, BUT AREN’T NECESSARILY PART OF THE

MECHANISM OF IT. >> Patricia: NOT PART OF THE SYSTEM, BUT NEVERTHELESS, MANY — YOU BRING UP AN EXCELLENT POINT, EDNA, THAT A LOT OF GERMANS DO BENEFIT FROM THE NAZI PERSECUTION OF JEWS. AND FOR INSTANCE, FROM NAZI- INSPIRED BOYCOTTS OF JEWISH BUSINESSES. “ARYAN” BUSINESS OWNERS, GERMAN BUSINESS OWNERS OFTEN TOOK, OR

FOUND, FINANCIAL OPPORTUNITY IN THE VOID LEFT BY JEWS WHO’D LOST OR SOLD THEIR BUSINESSES. AND I THINK WE SEE HERE A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE ONE-DAY BOYCOTT, NATIONAL BOYCOTT IN APRIL 1933 WHERE THE SIGN READS, “GERMANS, DEFEND YOURSELF. DON’T BUY FROM JEWS.” OR LATER WHEN THE NAZIS WERE

ROUNDING UP AND DEPORTING GERMAN JEWS IN THE FALL OF 1941, THERE WERE ACTUALLY NEWSPAPER LISTINGS ADVERTISING THE SALES OF HOMES AND BELONGINGS OF THOSE FAMILIES WHO WERE BEING DEPORTED FOR A FRACTION OF THEIR VALUE. AND HERE WE ACTUALLY SEE AN ADVERTISEMENT FOR AN AUCTION FOR A HOME OWNED BY TWO JEWISH

WOMEN, FANNY GRUNKIN AND HER DAUGHTER, MARIA, WHO HAD BEEN DEPORTED TO AUSCHWITZ. AND THESE AUCTIONS WERE EXTREMELY POPULAR. JUST LOOK AT THE MASSIVE CROWD GATHERED TO BID ON THESE — THEIR FORMER NEIGHBORS’ POSSESSIONS. THESE GERMANS GOT VALUABLE ITEMS FOR A GOOD DEAL AND THE NAZI STATE GETS AN

INFLUX OF CASH FROM THOSE SALES OF JEWISH BELONGINGS. AND I THINK IT WAS EASY FOR GERMANS WHO WEREN’T JEWISH TO IDENTIFY — MAYBE NOT IDENTIFY — TO JUSTIFY THEIR ACTIONS THEMSELVES, THINKING THAT, WELL, SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET THESE ITEMS ANYWAY, SO IS IT SO BAD

THAT IT’S ME? IS IT SO BAD IF I BUY THEM FOR THIS BARGAIN BASEMENT PRICE? AND WHILE THOSE GERMANS TECHNICALLY DIDN’T KNOW THE FATES OR THE DETAILS OF THE FATES OF THEIR JEWISH NEIGHBORS, THE SALE OF ALL THEIR POSSESSIONS OBVIOUSLY IMPLIES TO THEM THAT THEIR

JEWISH NEIGHBORS ARE NOT COMING BACK, THEY’RE NOT RETURNING, AND THAT SOMETHING REALLY BAD WAS HAPPENING TO THEM. >> Edna: IT FEELS ALMOST LIKE A FORM OF SOCIAL MOMENTUM, YOU KNOW. ONE PERSON MAKES IT OKAY TO DO IT, OR GIVES AN EXAMPLE AND THEN YOU

FOLLOW AND THEN YOU FOLLOW, AND THE STAKES DON’T SEEM AS HIGH. >> Patricia: RIGHT. >> Edna: I THINK WHEN JACOB TALKS ABOUT HIS FRIENDS CROSSING THE STREET TO AVOID HIM, IT’S AS THOUGH HIS ISOLATION, HIS PERSECUTION WAS CONTAGIOUS AND IT BECAME A FORCE

OF ITS OWN. >> Patricia: RIGHT. >> Edna: PATRICIA, WE KNOW FROM STUDYING THIS HISTORY THAT THE MARCH TOWARDS THE HOLOCAUST, TOWARDS GENOCIDE, IT WAS NEVER INEVITABLE. THIS WASN’T SOMETHING LIKE HITLER BECOMES CHANCELLOR AND THE REST HAPPENS LIKE A NATURAL DISASTER. WHAT CAN WE TAKE AWAY, WHAT DO

YOU HOPE THAT PEOPLE LOOKING AT THIS HISTORY WILL LEARN FROM THE WARNING SIGNS, THE INCREMENTAL STEPS, THAT MIGHT ALERT US TO DO THINGS IN OUR OWN WORLD TODAY? >> Patricia: RIGHT. WELL, MOST SCHOLARS, EDNA, I THINK YOU AND I PROBABLY AGREE THAT THE EARLY YEARS OF THE NAZI

REGIME WAS THAT PIVOTAL TIME TO TAKE ACTION. BY 1941, 1942, WITH THE WAR IN FULL SWING AND THE DEPORTATION OF MASS JEWS FULLY UNDERWAY, MOST THINK IT WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY DIFFICULT TO STOP THE NAZI KILLING PROCESS WITHOUT MILITARY INTERVENTION OR DEFEAT OF NAZI GERMANY.

BUT IN THE EARLY YEARS WHEN THE NAZIS HADN’T QUITE CONSOLIDATED THEIR POWER, THERE STILL MIGHT HAVE BEEN A CHANCE. MAYBE IF PEOPLE HAD ACTED SWIFTLY AND DECISIVELY AND PROMPTLY, THERE WOULDN’T HAVE BEEN A HOLOCAUST. YEARS BEFORE GERMAN JEWS WERE DEPORTED TO THEIR DEATHS, THE NAZIS PROGRESSIVELY MADE THEIR

LIVES MORE MARGINAL AND SMALLER AND MORE DIFFICULT AS WE SAW WITH JACOB. JEWISH CHILDREN WERE FORBIDDEN TO ATTEND PUBLIC SCHOOLS, ADULTS WERE PROHIBITED FROM HOLDING CIVIL SERVICE POSITIONS, GOVERNMENT JOBS. THAT HAPPENED QUITE EARLY. INCREASINGLY JEWS WERE BANNED FROM PUBLIC PLACES, FROM SWIMMING POOLS, PUBLIC

TRANSPORTATION, THEATERS, AND SO ON. ORDINARY GERMANS PUBLICLY NOTICED FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS DISAPPEARING FROM THEIR LIVES, AND WHY DIDN’T THEY ACT? BECAUSE THEY WERE CONCERNED — AS I SAID EARLIER, BECAUSE THEY’RE IMMERSED IN THEIR OWN LIVES, BECAUSE THEY’RE CONCERNED, AS YOU SAID,

VERY RIGHTLY WITH THIS IDEA THAT IT BEING A SORT OF A SOCIAL CONTAGION, THAT THERE MIGHT BE REPERCUSSIONS IF THEY SHOWED ANY SYMPATHY FOR THEIR JEWISH NEIGHBORS. AND CLEARLY INERTIA IS A HUMAN FRAILTY. WE’VE ALREADY DISCUSSED PERSONAL MOTIVATIONS, SUCH AS COVETING A NEIGHBOR’S PROPERTY OR HAVING

THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET AHEAD AT THE EXPENSE OF A JEWISH COWORKER WHO HAD BEEN STRIPPED OF THEIR JOB, COLORS THE WAY THAT GERMANS BEHAVED IN THAT TIME PERIOD AND WHEN YOU THINK OF IT, YOU REALLY SEE PEOPLE LOOKING THE OTHER WAY, CHOOSING TO LOOK THE OTHER

WAY, ACCEPTING THINGS THAT THEY REALLY KNOW AREN’T RIGHT. >> Edna: I THINK WE’VE HAD A REALLY KIND OF ALMOST PHILOSOPHICAL CONVERSATION AND PSYCHOLOGICAL CONVERSATION, BUT FOR THOSE OF US WHO LOOK AT THIS HISTORY, AND THERE’S SO MANY WATCHING WITH US TODAY, WHEN YOU

LOOK AT IT OVER AND OVER, YOU WANT TO FIND SOME MEANING, SOME LESSON IN IT, NOT JUST DEVASTATION AND CRUELTY. ONE VIEWER COMMENTED, “IT’S ALSO HARD TO UNDERSTAND, BUT WHEN WE PUT FACES ON THEM, WE SEE THAT CHARACTER CAN FAIL, COURAGE CAN FAIL.”

AND PATRICIA, I HOPE YOU’LL FEEL GRATIFIED TO KNOW THAT A VIEWER NAMED PERSEPHONE WRITES, “WE COULD USE A LOT MORE OF THAT HONESTY LIKE PATRICIA’S GRANDFATHER.” >> Patricia: YEAH. >> Edna: I AGREE. SO PATRICIA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TODAY, FOR YOUR INVALUABLE INSIGHTS.

THESE ARE VERY, VERY COMPLICATED SITUATIONS, EACH ONE A LITTLE DIFFERENT, EACH ONE WITH THE INDIVIDUAL DYNAMIC, BUT I THINK BY SEEING THE WAY THAT YOUR OWN EXTENDED FAMILY MEMBERS NAVIGATED THE IMPACT ON PEOPLE LIKE JACOB WEINER AND HIS RELATIVES, IT IS A WARNING TO US

HOW EASILY ANY ONE OF US COULD CHOOSE TO BE COMPLICIT OR TO BE COMPLICIT BY INACTION OR SILENCE IN THINGS THAT WE DO NOT WANT TO SEE HAPPEN IN OUR SOCIETIES. >> Patricia: YES. >> Edna: THANK YOU, PATRICIA. WE ALSO KNOW FROM THE MEMORIES AND TESTIMONIES OF SURVIVORS

THAT IT WAS OFTEN THOSE PERSONAL BETRAYALS THAT STUNG THE MOST. THE ONES THAT STAYED WITH THEM, NOT AS MUCH THE MAN IN UNIFORM CARRYING OUT ORDERS, BUT THE PERSON WHO THEY THOUGHT WAS THEIR FRIEND WHO TURNED THEIR BACK ON THEM OR WHO JOINED IN.

THANK YOU, VIEWERS, FOR TUNING IN. WE HOPE WE’VE GIVEN YOU A LOT OF FOOD FOR THOUGHT AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU FOR OUR NEXT PROGRAM. BYE-BYE.