How Can We Break the Quit Cycle in Relationships? | Radiant Reflections S3E65

Who knew that a cup of coffee could hold so many lessons? As we sipped our brew, we delved into the flavors of life and relationships as we’ve kicked off a new Holy and Healthy Relationship sermon series. It’s important to be intentional in how we nurture those close to us, just like one crafts the perfect latte. ☕️💭 #CoffeeTalk #LifeLessons #relationships #healthyrelationships #marriage

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Good morning everyone it’s episode 65 of Radiant Reflections kind of I’m kind of trying to pay attention to our episode numbers a little bit better Haley knows them because she produces the podcast which she was at Disney World or land I don’t know one of those last week and

That’s why the podcast was delayed on YouTube cuz she was enjoying a family vacation all right it’s awesome I’m be curious to haly to what parks did you go to cuz doesn’t Disney don’t they have like a thousand different Parks I don’t know I it just seems cuz you mean like

Universal and Epcot and all that kind of stuff I don’t know cuz like you know I’ve been to Hollywood Studios and that’s like a specific park right but that isn’t Magic Kingdom that’s with the castle and all like the I think character guys and stuff that’s comment

Below par I don’t know I can’t keep it all I can’t keep it all straight I think I I think that they went to that one to the magic one cuz I saw uh pictures of Scotty with princesses and stuff on Facebook so it looked pretty yeah it

Looked pretty cool she was cute as a button yeah rock and roll yeah well here we are episode 65 coming off of a first installment of a brand new teaching series yes but how long’s this series lasting Josh do you know uh it’ll probably tweak it yeah in some way shape

Or form we’ll probably get us to Easter cool um this theme anyways if not this specific M series title unpack it unpack the theme and the series title and then we’ll we’ll talk coffee okay so we’re we’re in series ER we’re looking at emotionally healthy holy relationships

It’s really the classic TV show no did I didn’t dude my wife and I we watch that show I don’t like medical shows yeah I don’t know why I like you know I think some of the ones that Nicole and I used to watch like NCIS yes uh that kind of a

Thing uh we liked White Collar Law and Order see I never watched Law and Order okay I liked White Collar though uh we did for a little while we did we did the first few seasons of Burn Notice it’s about a spy who gets burned

Or whatever but it was just it was one of those like it got to be Nails on chalkboard they would just they use the name of Jesus so often as explo it’s like no I I can’t I can’t do that anymore for it so but this is not that

ER this is it’s not so emotionally healthy holy relationships it’s really a spin-off of reclaiming Holiness yes it’s just kind it’s saying all right let’s deer on one particular aspect of Holiness uh and yeah what does it look like for us to be relationally holy and

Yeah it’s not I like that Ryan gave in a sense a disclaimer because sometimes you think oh church is doing a series on relationships it’s all about marriage no I mean we’re all in relationship whether it’s it’s your neighbor your coworker your friend your your mom your you know

Whatever uh relationships are far broader than marriage there will be some things that we hit on that cover marriage but yeah by and large it’s it’s about how do we interact with other human beings yeah in a manner that is is healthy and holy yeah I’ll be excited

I’ll be excited to see some more uh things unpacked in this series but uh to start we are drinking um coffee from our own madc cap which is in Grand Rapids Michigan Lisa once again has put the painters tape over the tasting notes Lisa I don’t know if you listen or watch

But you’re hardcore you’re a pro thanks for uh keeping the the playing field even right here this is the hoonipo hoonipo that’s exactly what I was going to say from Guatemala let’s see if we can get this or would it be hunapu I don’t know what do you think

Would be better it’s like the daachi I got to block my what if I block my oh there it is if I block my face with my coffee cup yeah it works it it’s eyeball detection madcap is we’ve drank coffee from them before uh it this is really

Really good coffee I’ve been pulling shots of espresso with this in the mornings very very good um yeah anytime I go to Grand Rapids I generally will buy grab a bag at least two two to four because I don’t like I’m a cheap skate I don’t want to pay for shipping so

Anytime I’m in a city where there that’s why we did yeah yeah probably save $ or $40 just by stopping at shops on the way around but um that’s yeah madap I definitely and then I’ll just freeze it so parlor had a like a valentine sale

Like they on some of their Duos so I just ordered two bags of ethiop two different Ethiopians from parlor nice uh yeah they had a pretty good pretty good deal tasty I mean the deal gets a little bit less good when you pay the shipping oh man yeah and that’s usually you know8

To 10 bucks so yeah just depending that’s why I like to load up and then I have a vacuum sealer like an actual one of those ones you put at the plastic bags you know and these you suck all the air out and then I freeze them so I do

That to keep everything fresh hoonipo from Guatemala what are you tasting Josh I’m going to say blueberry okay blueberry lilac I which I don’t I don’t know that’s just what that’s just come is there anything better than when the lilacs the purple and white lilac bushes

Blue in the spring so did I ever tell you the story or Wisteria no so uh years and years this was like before I moved out uh of my parents house there was a we had a couple around the yard we had a couple of [ __ ] willow

Trees sure you know um and we had one that was kind of like growing right up by the neighbor’s fence and my dad says oh like I need you to go out and cut down that tree you know by the fence or whatever yeah like so I’m out there I’m

Like going to town on this how big of round was it and my mom comes out she’s like she’s freaking out cuz I don’t know if I I just I don’t remember Mom or Dad you’ll have to did you Notch it the wrong side to like fall on your

House no but what what I did was whether I did it instead of the correct tree or in addition to the correct tree I also cut down one of my mom’s favorite lilac bushes oh no oh no they smell so good it’s intoxicating when you go through

The yard Wier is also that the same so okay lilac what what else did you say blueberry blueberry okay what do you what are you putting out there I’m saying I’m saying grapefruit I’m saying I I can there’s a there’s a great fruity feel lemon zest and we’re going

To need like a like a more of a no it’s all it’s all citrus to me I’m going great like on the back of your back of the teeth sides sides of the tongue I didn’t roll it yeah you got to let it roll off the

Sides the sides of the tongue I that’s where I taste those sort of more acidic things I don’t even know if that’s real like but I do hoip from Guatemala let’s see what we got here here’s layer number one wow yeah double layered yep painter tape over there cuz

We could see through oh no let’s hope I don’t going to rip the label right off we’d have to go on the internets okay or we’re just both right all the time okay so I think we should vanilla okay you said lilac Orange Blossom which is a flowery sort of thing and

Honeydew honeydew is like one of those it’s like a cantaloup it’s the trash of fruit you don’t like honeydew melon those things SM smell like a like a trash can they smell like a kit it’s terrible I know oh see I like I like me some some cantaloupe some honeydew melon

Yeah no can’t good stuff vanilla Orange Blossom and honey honeydew hunapu H hu we don’t know we have no idea but from Guatemala it’s a very good coffee I I’m I’m enjoying it so we weren’t on on those but we uh no points today mm but that’s all right no that’s all right

Episode 65 reclaim some points next week the title of the message was how to break the quit cycle the qu which isn’t actually like a question so it should be how do you break the quit cycle I don’t know yeah how do you yeah yeah how do we

Break the quit cycle yeah yeah what was what was uh standing out to you in the text and then also just kind I we’re going to camp in one area but yeah first I’m going to I’m going to read the expanded text actually okay personally I think we should have done that this

Whole chunk okay in Colossians 3 so I’m going to read vers 12 which is where we hung out yesterday all the way through 17 okay cool says this therefore as God’s chosen ones wholly and dearly loved put on compassion kindness humility gentleness and patience bearing with one another and forgiving one

Another if anyone has a grievance against another just as the Lord has forgiven you so you are also to forgive above all put on love which is the perfect Bond of unity and Let the Peace of Christ to which you are also called in one body rule your hearts and be

Thankful let the word of Christ well dwell richly among you in all wisdom and teaching and admonishing one another through psalms hymns and spiritual songs singing to God with gratitude in your hearts and whatever you do in word or In Deed do everything in the name of the

Lord Jesus giving thanks to God the Father through him I just felt like that kind of added some layers and that was the csb that was csb csb Version Y yeah yeah yeah so no I just yeah I like that and and there’s a theme as you go through

That one of the themes that you see there is is gratitude in that chunk of five verses it comes up at least three times uh so which if you tap into some of the some of the brain science stuff that we’re looking at some of these other you know other pieces for

Leadership uh other Church um some of those uh like I haven’t read the joy switch but I I started um the four habits for a joy filled life which is Chris corsy uh and Marcus Warner I’m interested to see what you find with that one so and and one of the things

That they doing one of the themes they word it slightly different but essentially gratitude right is is a pretty big component to yeah their whole model well in the other half of church they say gratitude is where Joy starts it’s where Joy starts that’s in chapter

4 uh of of uh yeah in rare leadership they use the word appreciation because it fits better than their acronyms I will say my only beef with with with their stuff is like r a r e well you no You’ just got to keep track of so many

Different acronyms cuz like for for for rare right the r a e like for for your first one right relational they’ve got an like a sub acronym and then for returning to Joy there’s you have the cake the cake acronym it’s like it’s like holy cow I need like a a flowchart

You need a glossery here for all of these acronyms and then they’ve got a whole different one in the four habits of joyfill people okay and I’m like I’m like I don’t even think I remembered acronym overload the rare one I I highlighted it’s in the book so rare

It’s it’s remain relational right uh always be yourself yes uh Return To Joy yes and endure hardship well oh that’s good and they would say that if you do the first three then you’ll do the the fourth one yeah you’ll be able to Door hardship well yeah but no so gratitude

Is a is a theme there yeah um but Ryan really focused there in Colossians 3:12 talking about Paul’s admonition to take off and put on take off and put on what what do you think was was meant by that in are you talking in how Ryan

Utilized it or how how Paul used it well I mean in the context of relationships I think it’s it’s important to remember that the way that we are isn’t necessarily the way that we should be oh I mean in such an individualistic culture we think oh well

Noy this is just who I am well yeah but who you are is stupid my temperament right like this is my number and and we can and those are important things to recognize about ourselves yes but we will often unfortunately use it as a as something

To hide behind right uh rap rather than something to be made aware of oh this is this is how uh this actually gets in my way right you know more often there are strengths there are benefits to your temperament to your personality all those things we’ve talked about that you

Know on multiple occasions on this podcast yep um but when we hide behind well no this is just who I am right we need to remember that who I am is Tainted by sin right and so then we’re called to to take that off right this

Old nature this this aspect of me that’s been warped and twisted and and made into something that God never intended I have to I have to take that off and instead yeah I’ve got to put on all the you know compassion and patience and and love all and all these different things

So to to engage in relationships in a healthy manner yeah right there has to be a recognition that that I have to I have to change yeah right there has to be a shift in me not to oh well I just have to be who this other person wants

Me to be no no I have to be who God wants me to be right so sorry you were going to say something I was just going to say no no no no I uh I was just going to say I think that that’s why like initially

When he first started talking about the title of the message you know he he did say it takes two people you know it takes two people for for uh the capacity to to stop that quit cycle and maybe we should Define that quit cycle yeah I

Mean he what it means to quit I I think overall because we do want to we don’t want to just say Okay this message was about divorce this could be about breakup this could be about just just quitting on any relationship in your life like giving up but well and I think

You can extrapolate it to to a variety of context right I mean he talked about how kind of the uh your first step might be to to quote unquote quit on the small stuff before you get to the big stuff right go to a go to a marriage right the

Big quit would be divorce like in in the work quit is quit don’t anym mean friendship like hey you know we’re not hanging out anymore there could be small quits along the way that sort of pave the path to the big one yes I mean within a marriage right

This could be things like yeah you know what I’m just yeah we’re not going to really date anymore we’re not going to Foster any sort of romantic element to our relationship in the workplace right some of these small quits are you know what man when I first came in and I’m in

Kind of that honeymoon phase yeah oh man I’m I’m first one in last one out I’m go go go now it’s like you know what I’m gonna yeah Coast I’ll Coast I’ll do the bare minimum like I’ll do my job but that’s about it and maybe I’m not even

Going to do that to the full ability that I have right those are some of those smaller quits right within a friendship maybe you get to be like man I used to text them all the time yeah you know if they text me maybe I’ll respond and we kind of abdicate uh

Initiation you know within that relationship yeah and and it becomes this lopsided relationship so there are a variety of ways that we can quit across the variety of contexts and it’s important to be kind of aware of those things it seems like passion you know the passion part of the of of the

Relationship is the one of the first things to go like when you lose that energy towards like wanting to connect with that friend via text or or wanting to um uh have that date night with your spouse or what ever it is that or that energy in the project at work like you

Really want to get that thing done uh I just wonder this is why my my line of work so we’ve got different managers over different departments and we will tell what I’ve told our our management team is to tell them never delay praise ever if you’re in the middle of a

Project and you have this thought come into your mind about something good that someone has done on our team put your stuff down stop your thing call them text them email them because it’s never going to be the enemy of our souls that brings encouragement or brings that

Passion or that spark into a relationship and so I wonder how often maybe even before we start losing some of that passion maybe we’re we’re not sensitive to the prompting of the spirit to say you know what you need to send that text to that friend and encourage them or you

Need to order those flowers uh for the misses or or what you know whatever it might be that I think God is faithful to give us these little promptings that will maybe stop that that Paving of the way towards the big quit and we need to be listening for God’s voice in those

Things um yeah but he did say it takes two people um to to break the quit cycle it can’t just be one person no although I mean there are things that you can do right I mean cuz that that would be another way that we kind of abdicate responsibility like oh

Well hey they don’t want to change I I’m out you know versus I mean you see in scripture Paul’s talking to Believers is say if you have an unbelieving spouse right you come into Faith your spouse isn’t a Believer right if they’re willing to remain remain you stick with

It yes I mean I mean so there’s there are some things where like oh hey if it’s not going to be a 50/50 I’m out of here no nope is that how God works with us I hope not and it’s not I know no no

But Ryan did did say and I think I thought it was very important that he identified and even listeners viewers if you’re divorced or even separated right now um in a marriage context or maybe uh a boyfriend girlfriend and there’s a separation right now some some space or

Time um there are some real and legitimate reasons that the Bible does um and Ryan said very wisely you know we can’t really double click on that in this message and if you wanted to know more uh you can connect with Ryan you could connect with with Pastor Brandon

Josh or I uh Pastor John Pastor Pam uh Pastor Karen you know there’s plenty of people on the staff that you could connect with to to know more about what the scriptures say about that I mean uh some of the some of the big one of the

Biggest ones in the marriage context is is infidelity uh Jesus identifies infidelity as a biblically legitimate reason to divorce it isn’t an imp imperative I was going to say and that’s an important distinction to make because I think even in that place I think the Father’s Heart

Is for restoration yes if possible if possible right and and again this is where that it takes two to tango kind of thing comes in yeah right because you might you know you might have the you want to restore and they serve you divorce papers I mean I mean I mean it’s

There’s a lot of there’s just straight up unfaithfulness and yeah so um I think another one that that the whole staff would would agree upon would be you know if you find yourself in a relationship where you feel endangered in any way you need to separate well separation yeah and

There’s a there’s a spectrum there right like separation does not automatically mean divorce there are seasons where I think the healthiest thing is is for some separation particularly in an abusive situation something where you know you know a spouse or the kids you know somebody like are actually in

Danger yep um or I mean physically mentally emotionally anything like that yeah and if you find yourself listener viewer in in one of those situations um get help you know get get uh talking with someone about that it’s it’s really important yeah what else Josh um do we want to bounce back to

Kind of the whole Zone thing and just absolutely yeah I think he camped uh quite a ways there or quite quite quite a while there and I thought it was really it was really good he shared three that we get into and then also he shared three

Solutions um to kind of help these things um to to maybe unpack uh that first Zone Josh yeah so this is he called it the a Zone and kind of the wording that he uses this is this is the period that’s full of promise right this is your your honeymoon phase full of

Promise for for lack of a a better way to say it right this is where like you think I think of like the movie Bambi you know when he’s Twitter ped right yes yes yes just like woo like things are great again and this this can happen in the context of romantic relationships

This can happen at a job right you get this job you’re like oh this is amazing my co-workers are amazing my boss is amazing I love it here I’ll work here for the rest of my life right and just everything is you know going up and to

The right in the sky uh yeah mentally emotionally physically like things are are moving and grooving uh that’s kind of this phase right you make a new friend and you’re like oh this is great we have so much in common we’re like we’re doing all this stuffff we’re

Having fun we’re you know going to this or that or the other thing and I I don’t know why this is popping into my head Josh but it is um it’s it’s like the first time you eat a hot dog it’s like H this hot dog’s really really good this

Tastes great and then later in your life you come to find out how hot dogs are made and what they’re made of and then and they still they still taste pretty good but there is a difference you’re like M okay so you’re talking about when you

Moved into the B zone now hot well just like you know there’s a difference and we say this we say this to people in the church world like church staff World we’ll say we’ll say to people now you know how the sausage is made yeah you

Know and that’s to tell them like behind the scenes there’s ugly stuff that goes on with being a church staff member with what it means to produce a service what it mean all that kind of stuff you know it’s not all full of Promise it’s not all honeymoon it’s not all um Twitter

Paided it’s not all there’s there’s struggle and Challenge and difficulty which that’s an interesting way to look at this right church membership yeah right you’ve got people that come into uh you know a a congregation uh you know they’re part of the assembly and and they’re like whoa like this is the best

Church ever right and then maybe you get a peak behind the curtain I mean not that we’re like sitting there like trying to you know say one thing and do another I like not that but like but I mean life is is messy yeah it’s messy

For you it’s messy for me it’s messy for JB right and and sometimes uh you when you start to get a peek at some of those things or you realize oh man like I can’t believe like two of these Pastor guys were like yelling at each other about something like that doesn’t that

Doesn’t seem right that’s happened I think I’ve I’ve usually been the one I dude I was like hollering at Kinsey about something this was a couple years ago I felt really bad I had to go back and apologize but but but then it’s like oh okay this isn’t as yeah as as you

Know Fantastical as I thought it was yeah uh right I don’t know about this and this is where you’ve got people that leave churches for some people leave churches for legitimate reasons really good reasons yeah uh then you’ve got people that leave churches because uh it got a little uncomfortable we asked you

To put a mask on right yeah little throwback 2020 baby um right there’s uh and and you’ve got people that leave and it’s they’re kind of in that that b Zone yeah which the the wording that Pastor Ryan used there is it’s full of problems right uh which is

Maybe a little bit hyperbolic um but it has problems right right there are some there are some some bumps in the road kind of that well hey this isn’t what I signed up for kind of you become more aware you become more conscious of act the actual reality the circumstance you

Find yourself in and I feel like that that zone a the full of Promise none of the none of the problems didn’t exist when you were in zone a they were all there you’re largely uh it’s a perception ignorant of them or out of yeah infatuation love or whatever you

Kind of uh just ignore them we we live we we live in in a land of uh Amish people right and and sometimes you’ll see uh a horse driving down the road and they’ve got this thing on their faces their heads and they’re like these little Flappers that go on the left side

And the right side of their eyes and it keeps them from looking to the left or the right just straight ahead it’s because if they look to the left or to the right right where you look is where you’re going yeah they’re they’re going to go you know and so I think sometimes

In that a Zone we we are very myopic you know we’re very just like you know this is the way this is what’s happening and then when we get to that b Zone the one full of problems it’s a big Lurch you know like it’s a big grind to the gears

Like you kind of start seeing some things that are are a challenged what I loved about this message and we could do an entire other podcast about is you should have brought this up sooner we’re almost halfway done man I know well and we we totally could but uh

Father Ronald Ronald rollheiser has a book called sacred fire and he has a couple other books that are specific to uh the stages of life and what it looks like for men what it looks like for women and then the different flowchart style trajectories that one can take huh

It’s very powerful I’m going to show you the diagram when we’re done yeah my spiritual director Doug shared this with me this last week um and just shared this one uh particular screenshot from a diagram and it was like oh my gosh that is so true it is every that is true um

But I think that that that is when you get to that b Zone it really is this fork in the road where you can go towards wanting to just quit or doing what what would a person do in the B Zone Josh to not be lured to just give up and

Quit uh what do you think re re I mean you’re talking about like what are what are some habits practices that kind of thing that they could utilize I me if the title of the message is how to break the quit cycle we come into Zone a full of Promise full of flowers

And sunshine we get to Zone B and we start to whoa wait a minute so I I would actually I would rewind and this is like anytime I do premarital counseling you know with a couple like like it’s it’s looking at expectations so when you’re still in the

The a Zone yeah uh let’s look at your expectations for this relationship in this new season in like no like right now hey what do you think this looks like moving forward I mean we I love the tool that we use simus saving yourage before it starts I mean it looks that

And it it asks each each one in the couple to say hey uh who’s putting gas in the car who’s taking out the garbage who’s doing y I mean like simple expectations simple expectations because often times often times conflict arises uh because of unmet expectations ah and assumption

Yes so if we can identify those expectations we could say all right so you’re looking down the corridor of your marriage yeah and you think oh well yeah he’s going to put gas in the car every time and he’s thinking growing up which is often what fuels those

Expectations yes what we have a front row seat to right as as a kid that is often what fuels our level of expectation well hey no dad always did this mom always did this so I’m going into marriage thinking well as a guy this is what I do this is what she does

But maybe that was not at all her experience and she lived in a spot where it was flip-flopped now you’re in zone B and now now you’re in zone B Dr Ted trip tells this story about that exact thing and it it it’s worth saying and then you

Come right back to what you’re saying so him and his wife uh Margie they got married and he came in and and he’s in the kitchen he sees the refrigerator and you know that space in between the cabinet and the refrigerator you know there’s that little just that little

Space well Margie’s wife had packed all of the paper bags who fold them up neatly from the grocery store and put them alongside and it was this storage space for these paper bags from the grocery maximize your space yeah Dr trip Ted trip is like you can’t do that

Because the refrigerator is an electrical unit puts off heat and it has to have so much air you know circulation around it to keep it cool and he realizes in that moment that at his house this was what he was taught by his dad about the refrigerator he goes over

To his mother-in-law’s house next to the fridge in between that cabinet where keep all these paper bags Margie’s only doing what she grew up knowing to do so I think that child childhood formation the examples that we see within marriage are very crucial so you you have these unmet expectations you have these

Assumptions which viewers listeners you know what they say about assuming we won’t repeat it but we know it what would a person do so what do we do in this this Zone B uh full of problems area well again I’m I’m going to I’m going to go back again like I think you

You first I mean if you’re still in zone a look look forward what are your expectations really be clear about that and and this applies to anything right not just marriage again you get a new job right what do you think this is going to look like y right I’m going to

I’m going to actually put oh man I’m going to work here for 40 years I’m going to make it to the I’m going to be the CEO by the time I’m done there I’m going to have the corner office talking yes if we kind of project ourselves you know down the corridors of

Time what do we think this is going to be like right and then ideally we pause and say hm is that actually a realistic expectation right if I think if I think and this is where you know maybe I’m a jerk right but I sit down with couples

And I tell them right hey right now all you guys have been going out for oh a year year and a half guess what a shift is coming yes right I mean I think they’ve done they’ve done the they’ve done the math on this and you’ve got 18 to 24 months

That honeymoon phase uh that’s that kind of wears out that Twitter pained phase wears out and so depending on where a couple is in their length of dating relationship Etc MH I I try to make sure I warn them hey like some of those things that you’re feeling right now

Thinking right now that’s going to change and and that’s not a bad thing the way that I tell them I actually say man I I go home and my wife says she loves me like at this stage in our relationship that’s not because her hormones are like going bonkers like oh

This guy is so cute I just love him I want to just eat him right up right I mean that’s not it my wife says she loves me because every day she wakes up and chooses to love me even though could be a jerk bag like that’s way better

Than the hormone thing so I try to to get a feel for their current level of expectation but also paint a picture of hey the next stage yeah yes there’s going to be some things as you become more aware of some of their little you know idiosyncrasies and things that

You’re like okay that’s not as cute as I used to think it was paper bags by the despite all those things what comes next is better right right so you so you hope hopefully the most the most challenging thing about that though Josh is that as

Much as you as a pastor and premarital counseling can say that and can talk about the azone thing and write the B Zone thing you can’t know it until you you you actually experience it you can’t actually you know it’s it’s kind of like well I was listening to a

Podcast here uh was probably 6 months ago or so and I can’t even remember who it was I think I think it was Preston sprinkle and I wanted to reach through the the speakers and slap him because he had this lady on right she was a psychiatrist psychologist says she has a

A um particularly this woman had a parenting practice right where she would counsel children and she would counsel parents you better not tell me she doesn’t have her own kids she didn’t have any kids she had no children it’s like that super nanny chick from the UK

Whatever I don’t care how doctory you are or what degrees you have uh it’s well my wife and I another another thing I won’t name the counseling place but there’s a counseling place about 45 minutes from here it’s not desert streams uh and we went for a marriage

Tuneup for for marriage counseling and they they pair us with this this we could tell he was younger than us you know but whatever so we sit down and it’s that that first meeting where you’re like getting to know the person whatever and through the through the

Conversation we come to find out this kid isn’t even married and is a kid yeah I mean he’s probably in my I mean he he was maybe 30 you know so he’s not a kid but you know we’re in our early 40s and we’ve been married for 22

Years and we messaged the people at the clinic and we’re like um y’ might want to rethink this you assigned a counselor who I’m sure God can use and he could tell us the scriptures and I’m sure he’s perfectly capable um that’s not a good

Choice so my point to saying all this is that there is an experiential reality to these zones that you don’t know that water until you’re swimming in it you don’t really you can’t really know but what I’m saying is and you’ve said some things but what are

Some other things that we can do specifically to mitigate what’s coming those changes maybe maybe I’m just saying the same thing over again so you call me out if I I am but like I think I think some of it is normalizing the fact that it’s going to

Get bumpy yes good okay like like recognize hey this isn’t I’m not some freaking nature because you know I’m struggling in my job right now I’m not and we’re not in a marriage crisis because I’m not a bad husband because you know my spouse and I are in

Conflict I’m not a bad friend no because my my friend and I are you know we’re kind of butting heads on some stuff right now normalizing that uh I I think is helpful you know it it’s kind of like if if I have something physically wrong right like

I’ll do something oh man I just tweak my back wrong for me at least if I can get some Insight is to well what’s wrong like that alleviates a lot of the pressure if I’m like no no no hey hey what’s going on I have no idea what’s

What’s the origin it’s bad we got problems we got problems but if I Rec oh well it’s cuz you’re an idiot Josh and you you know you bent over and you tried to pick up you know 150 pounds or something you know and you just you strained a muscle right oh okay right

We’re good like like that’s normal right that happens when you’re an idiot and you do this kind of thing right now take that and and put it in the context of relationships right like am I just am I a bad husband am I a bad employee am I a

Bad you know boss am I a bad you know did I make the right right choice yes right and now did I take the right job did I marry the right person right and there are certain mindsets with within relationship again this one’s particularly with marriage right where

We we look at marriage a certain way uh and the way that that plays out in the face of problems some of that depends on kind of your mindset but mhm I I think it comes back to uh the the other half of church so if we are within Community

If we are in and and Community I love some of the instruction I got as a a very new believer and as a new married uh person so I was I was taught early on you you and Lisa my wife and I you were a family before Ian came along and Lily

And Leah and Mikey you were already a family they’re now part part of your family and so thinking in that context that look uh and to not not use quit terms divorce is not a word my wife and I have ever spoken out loud to each other that

Was actually so before Nicole and I got married that was one of the of advice my dad gave me he says don’t that don’t even let that be in the Lexicon is not that’s not that’s not something that you even and why is that because because what we know about about marriage and

About the vows we made before God and God’s people before the the pastor and before the the man or woman that you’ve you’ve gone into Covenant with they’re binding MH they are binding and so believing in the the rigidity of that Covenant and the community that exists

Within that Covenant will help you to say look yeah this is hard we are in this B Zone this this problem Zone but quitting it’s not an option right and there are there are some other options that I don’t like either but well right because you know hey well quitting is

Not an option guess we’ll just like grit our teeth and bear it well that sounds pretty miserable too right you have people that persist in just this miserable state of existence within a relationship or in a job or in a you know it’s like no how about we how about

We get some tools that’s one of the things I love about uh counseling right and and I like the I like the the wording you used right a marriage tuneup yeah man as you go through different seasons of life there are going to be situations you don’t know how to handle

Oh yeah like you need to bring somebody in to to help equip you yeah to navigate this new challenge counselors you know a good counselor is like that they have the tools they have you know ideally they’ve got some experience in this where they say hey education let me let

Me but listeners or viewers I would say I know Josh is going to agree with me on this um it doesn’t have to be a counselor or a therapist uh it can be I I know for me my what I generally will turn to in things like this older people

Because it goes back to that azone b Zone thing like I have no idea what it means to be married for 30 years or to be 60 years old I don’t know what that looks like but I know I know quite a few people that have loved Jesus and loved

Their spouses for 30 years and are 60 years or older and so I turn to Elders in the faith what I would call mentors in the faith uh it’s not always that you have to go to a therapist or a counselor it is I mean there’s again I think the stigma is

Lessening with counselors with the church but I mean I think counselors have a valuable place but yeah I I agree also uh the key if you’re if you’re let’s say you’ve been married for two years and and you’re like we’re we’re hitting B Zone stuff right here uh what

Do we do yeah find somebody who’s been married longer than you and who’s in a healthy place in their marriage right this is somebody’s marriage that you want this drives yes that’s a good way to say it because this drives me crazy right hey I’m somebody’s struggling in

Their marriage and who do they go to all they’re divorced friends guess guess what kind of advice well you know what I got divorced worked out pretty good for me sounds like you need to quit right yeah like just give up you know I mean

Like no no I had and this this tick me off maybe I’ve brought this up on this podcast before I had a buddy this was years and years ago him and his wife were uh they were in a b Zone Arena uh he went to a counselor uh the counselor

Said to my buddy M sounds like she doesn’t love you anymore you guys should probably get a divorce I was like you paid this Butthead for this advice way to edit yourself Josh like you use your jerk bag that’s right it’s like no that’s a Godly counil no no that’s

Terrible not godly that’s terrible so I I like what I like what you said find somebody who has a marriage that you’re like man that would be great now in one sense right Pastor Ryan talked about the danger of kind of the comparison game

But if I look at a couple I’m like yeah you know what like they they seem to have this together yeah they probably don’t have it quite as together as we think sure but yeah they’re 10 15 20 years down the road oh yeah and they

Still love each other and they want to be around each other in our world Josh that’s huge I mean and the proof is in the pudding Jesus said in Luke 7:35 wisdom is justified by her children so early on when when Lisa and I uh got

Married and we had a baby coming right away right after the honeymoon Ian was on the way uh we looked at couples in our church and we we looked at marriages that we wanted to emulate but we also looked at parents and we looked at their

Kids and we said those are the people that we’re going to go talk to we had we had some good both of us had some good and bad uh formation in terms of how to parent had great things that we learned not so great things um and then and we

Wanted to kind of put some more as kiny would say Tools in our tool belt uh and so we went to these other parents and it was it was a it was a couple uh by the name of Mike and Judy slack and we looked at their kids and their kids to

This day their kids love Jesus and their our kids age uh a little bit older than our kids um but we looked at that and and we realized like we want to follow me as I follow Christ we saw these people following Christ in their marriage we saw these people following

Christ as parents and so we’re like I’m going to follow them I’m going to follow them and so if you’re listening or watching and you’re finding yourself in this B Zone full of problems and look Josh and I are very obviously talking from the context of marriage because

We’re both married men uh but this applies in any relationship it applies uh it applies to in singles it applies uh at work it it does apply don’t be afraid to reach out to someone that you respect and just start asking questions you know just start asking questions you’re going to be surprised

At what you’ll find um my wife and I like I said we’ve been married 23 years we’ve got kids from uh 15 up to 22 we find ourselves in parenting situations even now where we’re saying I think we need to ask someone who bring somebody into this we we I think we need

To ask somebody who who’s been down this road like we we could we need some counsel and so do that listener or viewer if you’re in the the B Zone um it’s okay to say I don’t know and to ask someone uh that does know Josh obviously the the B zone is is

The place where people and and Ryan shared with us this is the place where people really take that fork in the road towards quitting mhm okay but Ryan kind of paint kind of painted a picture this third Zone this C Zone unpack that for listeners and viewers kind the word you

Use here is it’s full of payoffs right this this is where you’ve you’ve established about langu within the in the well what is a payoff here’s the reality right we benefit from one another in a place of community and relationship whether that’s a friendship right like ideally right you and I both

Benefit because we’re friends yes right in marage right you benefit from having this loving trusting relationship that spans the years you know I mean there are there are payoffs there you you prove faithful in your job I mean there are Financial payoffs I mean from having

A job but there are also yeah I think it’s important that we we can unpack that language because he says Zone C is the Zone that’s full of payoffs what is a payoff a payoff is is something that happens after a period of time where there was previous investment you know

For most of us like in in in the the pretty affluent uh American uh the western part of the world you know our homes are our greatest assets the things that we’ve been paying the Death Note the mortgage note on right but there Comes This Time a lot of people it’s in

Their late 50s early 60s where that 30-year loan that they took out in their 20s they pay off that last payment and because they have made all these little payments you know at the beginning it’s all interest it’s not principal and then you get to about a Midway point and it it

Flips and there’s more principle of each payment than and then towards the end you’re not paying interest anymore you’re you’re just paying down the debt that you owe and that payoff represents a longterm investment so I think it’s important to consider this sezone as a place of of the after the passing of

Time you can’t get to the C Zone with a snap of your finger you can’t get to the C Zone in premarital counseling as much and as great as Josh is going to do in that and tell you sy all the ideas you can’t get to Zone C until you get to

Zone C well and because I think some of it and I’d be curious to pick your brain on this and I know we’re trying to be a little more disciplined here but my one of my questions is is the is the severity of the B Zone and the length of the B

Dep what we do the a z and the beginning phases of the Zone here what I mean right CU like you said I could I could be the best freaking premarital counselor in the world which probably not right but but you could you could expose them to all of these ideas you

Know try to normalize the shift that’s coming down the the road give them tools to navigate it but when you hit that b Zone yeah do you actually utilize any of the tool right I mean so like everybody has a plan in a boxing match until they

Get punched in the face right all your plans about the door and you get suck in the mouth when the crap HTH the fan you know like what are we what are we going to do you know do we actually lean into this yes that’s the fork yeah so now

It’s like okay am I going to am I going to work through this yeah or am I going to try to find the the escape hatch uh right here cuzz I think you know and I mean and Pastor Ryan kind of alluded to yeah hey these season that’s like these

People that have been married 40 50 years I’m going to I’m going to go out on a limb and say you’re not Problem free no when you’ve been married 40 or 50 years every season of life brings different different challenges right different different problems and struggles that you have to navigate

Right you get to the point where you’ve been married 50 years now you’re dealing with with potential you know health issues and like I mean all these different components that that go with that um so it’s not that you get to a place where you’re problem free my my

Question to you get your opinion right could that c Zone happen much sooner depending on the investment that you make in that particular relationship in a marriage hey we’re going to be really intentional we’re going to we’re going to figure out Y how to to navigate these things if we

Can if we can put some general practices in place as a as a couple as a friendship as an employee you know I’m going to put some things in place now yes and that’s where that payoff comes in like you’re saying we’re we’re going to be intentional to

Invest if if I’m 10 years into my marriage right and I haven’t done Jack crap yeah to really cultivate a strong relationship yeah I’m I’m probably significantly delaying when I’m going to get to that to that c zone or Worse what if in the azone period you

You have this azone period and then you eat immediately not only don’t do the things that are the good things but you do bad things H and now you’re you’re even farther behind and it’s kind of like you know as a dad I tell my kids you know

We’ve all seen this math Ramsey puts out this math you know if you put X100 a month by the when you’re 20 by the time you’re 65 you’ll you’ll own planets out in space like you will be a gajillionaire you know what I mean all these kinds of

Things uh but I I like what you’re saying and this kind of does segue us really well into some of these solution points to invest in zone a deal with Zone B so that zone C is very very um like compounding interest right we know

It’s true right you put X Dollar in at the beginning when you’re in your early 20s that’s 60 62 65 you have uh enough to live for 20 years hopefully um marriage is much the same way so what are what are he he shared three things uh let’s let’s unpack those for

Listeners and viewers first one that he brought up is move from self-serving to self-sacrificing he references John 13 which is where Jesus washes his disciples feet and he says now go and do likewise right so it’s it’s this call uh of Jesus on us to live service oriented

Lives right a lot of times again whether this is at work whether this is in a romantic relationship whether this is you know whatever you’re in your classroom at school and you have conflict often times right if we really kind of reflect on what’s driving this

Uh and and maybe this is just me right it’s if if I’m feeling the tension I feel the weight of a problem uh it is often because you know what I really drilled down I didn’t get what I want yep and I’m and I’m upset about it and

So much of of that transition between a Zone and B Zone uh when you’re first and newly married you you have this idea that you are God’s instrument to change and make your spouse into the person that God really wants them to be which ultimately you mean the person you want

Them to be exactly exactly and You’re expect and you have these expectations and assumptions on change what you think they should be or shouldn’t be and and that has to shift cuz it is very much self-serving the person that you want them to be it maybe there’s some good parts of

That but a lot of that is is just self- serving so self sacrifice very very important John 13:14 what what was uh number two Josh uh prayer is not supplemental but instrumental I love that language so just pulling prayer in and I think we can e extrapolate this to

All the relationships I mean he kind of camped out on hey as as married couples do you pray together uh but again I think I think prayer is a a beneficial tool in any relationship as you’re in like a b Zone particular yeah I mean you

Look at you know again the call of Jesus pray for your enemies pray for these people pray for these people pray for these people um let’s say let’s say you and I have a a struggle right we’re in a a place of conflict which conflict is not automatically bad right I’ll tell

This little side note if I sit down with a couple like oh no it’s great you’re like yeah we never fight I’m like okay one of you is lying because it means you’re probably you know yeah shoving down your preferences because the odds of two people always agreeing

On every single thing not going to happen right so no so conflict is not bad but let’s say you and I are in a place of conflict uh and man we’re just we’re really button heads yeah it’s not a it’s not a bad thing right for me to

Sit what we do with it sit in a place of prayer and say all right Lord first of all man I iay pray for my brother Josh yeah I know he’s a good dude he’s got a good heart right like but also Lord like what’s in me like what what am I

Contributing to this am I seeing this clearly yeah like like am I am I uh pouring gas on a fire that I shouldn’t be am I am I stuff am I trying to put out a fire that should be you know I mean what what’s my own uh responsibility because then that also

Ties into the third uh thing that he brought up I think praying self self sacrificially as well rather than being self- serving in our prayers it it it’s a must he was in Chronicles 1411 uh 16:17 um I I would say probably this is would be my number one advice in B zone

Is prayer number one number one thing you’ll notice you’ll notice that if you can’t pray with someone something is very very seriously broken if you just cannot have a a a vertical connection with god with another person but like you said I think the two things are are

Can be linked right like the prayer and self-sacrifice go to jesus’ command love your enemies pray for those that hurt you that’s that’s sacrificial cuz I I feel like want to for them I have a legitimate thing against this person and you might and you you might but Jesus is

Telling me to to set that aside and pray blessings and goodness over this person like that’s a that is in a sense a self-sacrifice and this is this is where I believe uh liturgy is so very helpful I I feel like and there’s so much good

Liturgy out there you know you might be in a place where your your significant other listener of viewer you can’t even pray for them like his stuff is so broken and so so disconnected find some liturgy you know I I I love Ruth Haley Barton I pray every day I pray the same

Thing Lord Jesus Christ I lift ex into your holy presence may they experience the Deep peace peace of Christ today because I know the Deep peace of Christ is blessing so I’m praying blessing over someone where there might be a little bit of friction or they’ve sinned

Against me or whatever it might be uh so prayer is very important what was number three Josh number three is stop living in broken Eden which essentially that’s the blame game the blame game that’s exactly what I these things these things kind of all you know rolling together

It’s easy uh in the face of uh B zone right problems to well if if she would just or hey if my boss would just if my employees would just you know and and were putting all the responsibility all the weight on the other person uh that’s

Not that’s not a Jesus model Noe Josh I was recently in a in a group dynamic uh with some people that were in Conflict um myself and another uh person was was kind of listening ears we were holding space for a couple two other people who are really really

Like shouting at one another kind of conflict and uh at the towards the end as the Lord was present he was present in this conversation it was so beautiful um I I sense that I was supposed to ask every person in this circle of of

Conflict to say I I need you now to say your part I want you to to say what your responsibility was I want you to own what you can own I don’t want you to talk about any other person in this room so I’m asking for IE statements and we

Went in around that Circle and I was I did too like I was like I this is where I contributed to this conflict and this is the change that I’m going to make and you could just sense the room this like this whole atmosphere changed it was

Beautiful Josh um this was a great message yeah if you again if you didn’t uh didn’t hear it you can wherever you’re engaging with the podcast you can catch the message on that same uh platform so go ahead and do this and don’t forget to like and share you know

Maybe you’ve got a friend or family member or someone that you’re in Conflict maybe sharing this podcast with them is that first step towards reconciliation you know and we pray that that’s what would happen uh I know Ryan wants that for the messages that he shares uh like And subscribe definitely

Give us a review we we’re getting closer and closer to those thousand subscribers 983 983 so we got two more from last week we’re getting close 17 more coffee events coming up Yeah March 23 March 23 we did we is it live we haven’t because

We need to talk about the cap I’m going to go ahead and throw it out here just knowing how coffee I don’t think we can take more than 50 participants that would be and that might even be a little high so I did talk to Ben I think Ben

Yeah I did too actually yeah I I message him on on Instagram so Ben yeah we’ll see if Skyler’s still in town my daughter Lily if she’s depending on how she’s doing from her surgery um so yeah we’re excited for this coffee event coming up it’ll be great to just hang

Out with some of the listeners viewers and anybody else maybe you don’t listen or watch but you like coffee and you tell them uh to come that would drag drag a friend along yeah get them highly caffeinated but definitely help us reach that subscription goal uh and again like

And share this podcast it helps us grow uh next week Josh you are going to be with a special guest H yeah Town yep uh special guest to be determined to be determined I’ll will be out of town for work uh but yeah we Josh and special guest we’ll see

You next week that’s right we appreciate you Guys