Starting Your Career Journey in UK Soap Operas | Future Film Festival 2024

This session was designed for aspiring writers, producers and directors, offering a glimpse into the world of UK soap operas, a proven training ground for emerging talent. Why opt for soaps? These fast-paced productions can provide a crucial initial credit in the screen industries, along with stable employment, attractive remuneration, and a distinctive learning experience.

This session looked at how script and story departments operate in continuing dramas, exploring the collaborative processes in story conferences where seasoned storyliners, writers and script editors work closely to maintain the show’s consistent tone and style. Additionally, the intricate management of tight schedules and storylines which run across multiple episodes will be covered. Exploring the art of working with soap opera actors, some with decades in their roles, and bringing out the nuances of performances in a character-driven narrative will be part of the discussion. Finally, we’ll address the significance of adapting to audience feedback and shaping the narrative based on viewer engagement.

Speakers:

Philip Dodds, producer, writer and script/story executive
Emily Gascoyne, writer
Kodjo Tsakpo, director and screenwriter

Host: Jane Steventon, development producer

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– Welcome everyone to this session on getting into UK soap operas. I’m your host, Jane Steventon. My background is as a producer and script editor, and I’ve worked on many continuing drama series and soap operas in my time, including “Hollyoaks,” the “Hollyoaks'” later series that I did for two years.

I worked on casualty, I worked on doctors, and I also had a few stints in children’s drama on long running series such as “Tracy Beaker.” So that’s a bit about me. We’ve got a brilliant panel lined up for you today to answer all your questions, and I’m going to hopefully ask them

Some pertinent questions as well about the best ways into industry for you and what they’ve learned in their different roles. So I’m gonna pass over to them to introduce themselves individually. We’ve got, first off, Emily Gascoyne and then Phil Dodds and Kodjo Tsakpo all with us from different spheres.

And I’ll hand over to Emily now just to say a quick, hello. Emily, you’re mute. – That was a great start. – Someone had to do it. – My name’s Emily Gascoyne. I’ve worked in television for about 24 years. 22 of those years have been spent in soap. I currently write for “Coronation Street,” but I started my soap journey as a script assistant and then as a storyliner on “Emmerdale.”

This genre has obviously provided me with a wonderful career and I look forward to sharing it with you. – Great. Phil, do you want to tell us a bit about you and what you’ve done? – Yeah. Hi, I’m Phil. I’ve worked as a writer, script editor, story editor,

Most recently producer and series producer on “Hollyoaks.” I’ve been in continuing drama I think the last eight to 10 years. It’s about five years script and story on “Emmerdale” and then producing and… Assistant series producing, and then series producing on “Hollyoaks.” – Fabulous. And Kodjo, over to you. – Hi, I’m Kodjo Tsakpo.

I’ve been directing continuing drama and a bit of other drama as well for the last six years. Previous to that, I spent 17 years making short films. Yeah, it’s been a fun journey so far. So yeah, so looking forward to sharing too. – Fabulous. Thank you everyone.

Right, so we’re gonna get warmed up with understanding a bit more about what everyone has just called themselves. So this is a big, big industry. I mean, soaps have been popular for a long time with mass audiences and they are the machine that keeps running year round.

So they require a lot of personnel to work in multiple roles. As you’ve just heard, script editors, assistant script editors, researchers, series producers, lots of terminology. We’re just gonna try and demystify a view of those roles to start with. And there really are sort of two routes in broadly,

Usually through the editorial or the script route or the production or from the floor route. So with those two areas or entry points in mind, I’m gonna start with Emily talking a bit about the script, the editorial, the beginning of the story process and the roles they’re in.

And then we’re going to lean into Kodjo’s sort of background and experience and have a look at how the production route can provide a pathway into this route. So Emily, if you could just start us off and just talk a bit about that script area and where ideas sort of start on soaps

And how they get grown and who is involved in that process along the way. – Okay, so most… So, well all soap operas in this country work the same way or with very, very small variations, but we are basically working six months in advance of what you see on the television.

And we work on a four week cycle. So that four week cycle starts with a story conference. So all the writers attend that. Each of these shows probably has somewhere between 20 and 25 permanent writers. And at that conference, that’s where writers pitch their ideas for the next four weeks of television.

So that’s looking at the different characters, looking at the long-term stories that you’ve got in play and working out what do you want to see for the next four weeks. And that conference lasts a couple of days and it’s a great experience, obviously there’s lots of discussion, lots of arguments,

And hopefully by the end of those two days, the story team will have come away with an idea, really the broad brush strokes of what needs to happen in the next four weeks. So the story team really is the engine of the show, and that is made up of storyliners, story assistance,

A story editor and a story producer. And they basically take those broad brushstrokes and they work out the finer detail. And what I mean by that is that, you know, they will have come away from conference with some, you know, with some big ideas or big ideas for scenes.

But really then the storyliners need to break that down into episodes, making sure that every episode has a really big juicy hook to hook the audience in. And they write the stories across the weeks into bits. Ultimately at the end of that process.

I mean, I could talk about that for hours, to be honest. It’s a very involved process and the stories get taken through several different edits before they’re actually put into episodes. But ultimately at the end of that process, each episode will have a story document which details exactly what has to happen

In each episode basically. And it will have an A story which forms the spine of the episode, and then it will have detail about the supporting story strands in that episode. And so at the end of the four weeks, all those storylines are published and they are allocated to a writer.

So the writer gets their story documents and they’re either very happy or a bit annoyed, and it’s quite exciting when those documents come through. And you can read basically what’s gonna happen in the next four weeks and more specifically about your episode. So the writer then it’s their job

To take that story document, which is written in strands and turn it into a script. So they produce, first of all, what we call a scene breakdown. And those scene breakdowns then get handed back to the production team for them to ha… The editorial team, sorry, for them to, you know,

Check that everything’s working and that they’re happy with the writer’s interpretation of the story document. When they’re happy, the writer gets the green light to go ahead and start writing. And you typically get a couple of weeks, anywhere between two and four weeks to write your episode. You hand that in.

The editorial team then take it and they have a meeting, a first draught meeting. So at this point, this is when the script editor gets involved and the producers and they will read a week or a block of scripts together and they will have a meeting about it.

Production will get involved a little bit at that point, and they go back to the writer with notes. So that first draught is the first of maybe four or five different edits. So it’s quite a long process really. Probably end to end is about three months maybe.

And, you know, it’s a very collaborative process as well. So the writer obviously works very closely with the script editor, but, you know, the script editor also has a lot of input from the production as well. And it’s now the towel handover to Kodjo because as a director, they get brought on

At a certain stage in the script development process. – Oh- – So Kodjo, you sort of grabbed the script hot off the presses once the editorial team are somewhat happy with it. And then it really is about creating that visual storytelling from that document, isn’t it?

So do you wanna tell us a little bit more about what your process is as a jobbing director coming onto a soap opera? What’s the first sort of thing you do and who do you collaborate with? – So, I come in typically when the director starts,

The scripts are usually, it’s sort of like a fourth or fifth draught stage and yeah, fourth or fifth draught stage. And the first thing I do obviously is I read the script, make notes of anything that I think could be improved, anything that’s working, anything I like, anything I don’t like.

And I collaborate mainly with the producer and the script editor to sort of finalise the script during the rest of prep to get the script to a shooting draught, which we’re gonna go in on. Now, the rest of that prep period, I’m also consulting with the different departments as well,

Casting, locations, makeup and costume, cameras, lighting, anything that needs to get sort of, sort or finalised before we go into the shoot. And at the same time, that script is being finalised and locked into place for the time you come to shoot it. So that’s stage one of the sort of directorial process.

Stage two is obviously shooting it. By this point, we’ve got a schedule in place. Me and the first assistant director, we’ve had a conversation about how long it’s gonna take to film certain scenes, any health and safety concerns, et cetera, et cetera. We draw up a schedule.

Well, he or she draws up a schedule and a bunch of call sheets and we’re ready to shoot now. During production, basically we’re depending on whichever show you’re working on, you’re either running around from studio to studio or running around from location to location to shoot everything in a timely manner

And as effective, as dramatic as possible. And hopefully if everything’s gone to plan, you’ve shot everything in time and on time and on schedule. And then we move into post-production. So while we’ve been filming, the editor has been assembling the scenes if you like, alongside us actually shooting them as well.

So by the time I go into the edit to do my director’s final cut, there’s an assembled… Well, it’s just called an assembly, isn’t it? So, and then I go in fine, cut anything I want to, and then get it to time

And we hand it over to the producers to give their notes. Who then hands it off to the executive producer to get their notes and then I’ll get kicked outta the building. – All these notes, notes, notes, notes flying at you. Thank you both for giving such a clear explanation.

We’ve just had some thanks in the Q and A as well for giving that overview. So really it’s quite difficult to explain or get across the maelstrom and the busyness and the intensity of those schedules, isn’t it? And I mean, I was surprised when I arrived at “Hollyoaks”

And there were four episodes shooting at any one point, and then sometimes they shot the latest as well. We sort of added another layer and actors are passing each other in corridors running from one set to the next. I mean, the busyness and the intensity is something else, isn’t it?

But that can also make it such an exciting environment and such a spontaneous environment for creativity. I was just wondering, Phil, you’re obviously, you’ve been heavily involved in sort of managing that maelstrom of a process, but obviously delivering as well stories and ideas, you know, what do you think

Are the big components that soap sort of stand out from the regular TV show or the making of regular production? – So I think it is the kind of the volume and the scale of it, like you touched upon there, Jane. It’s four shoots running at any one time generally.

And like you say, everything’s shooting over that kind of month period that Emily talked about at different stages. So it’s kind of coordinating all of the different departments and trying to keep your head in all of the different elements at any one time. The kind of benefit of the series producer role

Is having that global view across everything. The way that “Hollyoaks” structured itself was a producer took ownership of one week of scripts, so they would kind of sit with a director such as Kodjo, who kind of shoots that week and help orchestrate and kind of bring all the elements of those episodes

Together to be the best they can be. But yeah, it’s the kind of… The pace and the relentlessness of it. It doesn’t afford opportunity for much pause and you’re kind of constantly generating ideas and then regenerating ideas really. And we were talking earlier in terms of kind of any advice

Of anyone entering this industry. There can be a perception that continuing drama or soap kind of isn’t as important or isn’t as lauded as high-end… Quote, unquote high-end TV, but really it is kind of the place, the school to learn everything about your craft because you will never experience

Such a high volume of idea generation and talented people. You know, it was always the case coming into the industry. You would see that the big names that you kind of aspire towards had cut their teeth in soap and it really was the kind of school and the training ground.

Now that’s not to say, you know, it’s also there to kind of existed and then go on and do bigger or louder dramas. There are plenty of kind of people like ourselves who continue to be in soap and generate because you get to tell all of the stories

And all of the wonderful ideas that you’ve had in your brain continuously and have a six month window to then see those on screen and see a very immediate reaction from the audience towards it. So it’s kind of one of the most rewarding areas for learning all your mistakes as well.

You’re definitely not gonna get everything right. But getting that immediate feedback from an audience and being able to tell stories that are at the forefront of popular discussion really, and kind of see those results come through as quickly as that compared to the slightly slower gestation period

Of a lot of those nine o’clock, eight o’clock hour long dramas. – Oh, you know, I think the speed can be a wonderful tonic, can’t it? To some of the development hell that no doubt we’ve ended up in all of us at some point. And as you say, the topicality,

Like you can bring very current societal political issues to screen and you’re writing it literally three months later it’s on the screen. I mean, that’s sort of on the pulse kind of storyline must be a great joy. I’m getting a couple of questions on that writing side of things, Emily,

So I’m gonna kind of come back to you a bit on that. So just to sort of two for one, how do the writers sort of build themselves into the mentality of the show? Can you talk a bit about a Bible and or any kind of exchanges you would have

With the sort of script personnel when you were coming on board as a new entrant to the script department or as a new writer? – Yes, look, so, I mean really my advice would be watch the show, watch the show. That’s so important. You won’t believe how many people turn up for interviews

Who don’t really have a clue who the characters are, or they’re pitching for characters that died six months ago on screen. You know, really, that’s the best way to sort of absorb yourself into the show. And it’s the way that you start to, you know… Obviously you don’t read…

There’s a cast of 60, you know, you don’t read everybody’s by org. The best way is to watch it, understand what their voice is. It doesn’t suit all writers to get to work in this genre because you are working with other people’s characters. They’re not your own.

And it is quite, you know, a different skill really to be able to just slot into somebody else’s shoes. It’s really important obviously that there’s a continuity of voice, yet we’re all as writers, very individual people and come at the world, you know, have different experience. We think certain things are more important

Than other people. We have to… You know, you have to be able to write to the party line really. And that is a skill that, you know, I would suggest the best way to hone that skill is to work in an editorial department on the soap, you know, of your choosing.

There’s no better way really to learn the craft. That’s how I came up through the ranks. It’s a wonderful experience being a storyliner. It really is. There’s no better job in the world. And I would probably still be in a story office if I didn’t have three kids because it’s just great.

Sharing ideas. I just wanted to pick up on something that Phil said about the immediacy of seeing your own ideas on the tele six months later. There’s no better feeling and no other genre really is like that, you know. If you want to write drama that’s brilliant, but you may work on ideas

That never ever see the light of day. And that can also be very frustrating. And it’s why I’ve chosen to remain in soap. I’m not sure I’ve answered your question. (laughs) – Yes. Yeah, I think brodly, you have, and I was also going to bat it back to Kodjo actually,

Because there is a house style and there is a sort of, you know, a set of sometimes iconic characters that you’re working with. I mean, Kodjo walking onto some of these sets, you know, and directing perhaps some of these shows for the first time. Were you very aware of the sort of history

And that kind of weight of, you know, pressure I suppose, of carrying those stories through? – The short answer is yes. I mean there were some shows I’ve walked onto and I felt giddy. Like I wanted to text my dad straight away and just go, I can’t believe I’m here.

I can’t believe I’m still getting away with this. It’s a huge responsibility, but it’s also a privilege as well to continue to be part of that long running chain that’s been going on for decades and will continue to go on as well. Yeah, I mean all you can do is just do it,

Just do it the best of your ability. Trust in the actors as well. They probably know better than me going in there. I’ve done my research as much as them, but basically they are the owners of those characters, you know, I’m going to collaborate with them as best I can. And yeah.

– And let’s talk a bit about… ‘Cause you had a very unusual firsthand view of how lots and lots and lots of directors worked, how they managed that process and how they came into and onto a show. Would you talk a little bit about how you got into your current role

And the sort of twisty, turny route, if you like? – Absolutely, absolutely. So probably unique to my journey more than a lot of other directors is that in those 17 years of making short films, my day job was as a television extra on “Casualty.”

It was also the first show that I ever worked on at 16, did a guest slot as an illegal immigrant coming and getting stuck in a ship that had crashed into the dock in Bristol, Bristol… No, Portishead. So after university, studied film, after university couldn’t get access to the industry

For the love of the money, I was writing emails and letters left, right and centre. And just decided to capitalise upon the fact that I was already signed up with an extras agency. And that quickly became sort of being, you know, a staff member in the background

Of the A and E department on occasion to then becoming a staff member to then it becoming my day job Monday to Friday. But at the same time, what it afforded me was an opportunity to actually watch lots of directors, some good, some bad, what worked, what didn’t work,

How crews were responding to the directors, whether they knew it or not, and what they were doing that made the crews react that way. And every couple of years I’d do a new short film and I’d just apply what I’d learned on the floor there to the short films that I was doing.

At the same time, I’d also applied to sort of sidestep into a-ding, which assistant directing, but that didn’t work out. So I carried on making short films and then yeah, years later I got given something to direct for “Casualty,” which was online only and then applied for the BBC director scheme

Three years in a row and got it on the third opportunity. – Third time lucky. – It’s third time lucky. But it was also an opportunity… Ugh, it was a third time, I’d kind of given up at this point. I’d kind of gone, “This isn’t for me,”

Every time I applied I ended up with egg on my face and just thought, this is the universe telling me not to do this. But a third time, you know, got in all was good, didn’t look back. Yeah. – When we were talking before this session about getting in

And when did we first feel we were in, all of us sort of had an opinion on that. Phil, do you wanna sort of elaborate further? Like, when are you ever in, how do you feel safe in this- – I think the consensus was you never really feel like that.

I mean, imposter syndrome’s huge and continues and it’s one of those industries, you know, at certain points in your career, you will come in and out of it. It’s kind of, it can be very unreliable. And I guess that’s the other thing to sort of talk about

And endorse the continuing drama is the job security and the kind of career progression you can find in soaps and continued dramas more so than out in the freelance industry because they are on all of the time and it’s such high volume as we kind of talked about before.

Yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know in terms of, yeah, when you feel that you’re in, I mean certainly when you kind of get your first onscreen credit, that kind of, you know, increasingly as you progress through your career might get larger in font or slightly more towards the beginning is always lovely.

And yeah, it’s probably those moments where you think, okay, like Kodjo has been saying in the beginning wait for it for five, 10, 15, 20 years now. Maybe we’re all right. But yeah, there’s always a sense of unsteadiness that keeps you driven really and keeps you wanting to do your best work.

And, you know, you never… Like kind of most creative endeavours you’ll hear about, you never feel that you’ve stopped learning or that you kind of haven’t got more to learn and more to know about because you’re probably dead in the water if you ever reached that point. There’s, you know, always things

That you can be learning and improving upon. – I’m sure a lot of the young people watching or watching this after on YouTube are sort of aware because tele and film does have that reputation of being a tough business, you know, and there’s sometimes quite a long road

To get where you want to be. And we did sort of want to sort of land that point, you know, a bit of a reality check that it is a tough business. You will spend time whole punching scripts and, you know, sitting in story meetings and not uttering a word, just really listening

And soaking up and being a sponge to everything that’s around you and crucially, I think forming relationships with the people around you, aren’t you? So some of the people, I’m sure Emily, you’ve been working with on the writer’s side of things, you know, you’ve known for years,

You’ve got longstanding kind of creative relationships with, there’s a trust formed there, isn’t there over a period of time? – Yes, absolutely. And just to, you know, reinforce really your career progression, it’s never smooth and there will be times where you’re thinking, you know, standing at the photocopier,

Having photocopied 200 scripts back in the day before we had email and you’ll think, what on earth am I doing? You know, I worked really hard at university. I, you know, I’m now making coffee for actors who shout at me a lot and you’ll have days where you really question

Whether this is really what you want, but you know, it’s definitely worth it in the end, you know, and often those people that you’ve met at that early stage of your career, you will meet again in the future and you know, and you’ll slowly but surely build your network so that, you know,

Now I’m fortunate enough to have people phone me and ask me if I would apply for jobs as opposed to the other way around, you know? When I first started out, I didn’t know anybody in the TV industry and I literally faxed letters (laughs) to all the production companies in Manchester

Basically telling them I would work for free. I just wanted some experience as a runner and I didn’t get anything. And it was only after I thought, right, I’ve got to do something really that’s going to make it look like I’m really serious about this. So I wrote and produced a play

At the Edinburgh Fringe Festival that summer, and it was just a tiny little play. Hardly had any audience, but I could write that on my CV and say, this is what I have done. I am serious about working in the creative industries. And suddenly, you know, I got a bite

And I did get a job as a runner and certainly, you know, obviously when you apply for junior roles in television, you know, there are hundreds of applicants for these jobs. And I’ve been on the other side now where I’ve been faced with a pile of 150 CVs

And I have to find a way to whittle them down because we can’t interview everybody. And so you’re looking for little things that are going to make you stand out and, you know, make whoever’s reading that CV just sit up and listen and go, all right, that’s really clever what they’ve done there.

I was telling Jane before about a chap I once interviewed for a storyliner’s role. Well, we gave him a storyliner’s role, but the reason he stood out was because he had set up a Twitter account for an extra on “Coronation Street” and you know, he regularly tweeted as the show was on,

As if he was tweeting from the POV of this extra. And I just thought, wow, that’s really clever and really proved that, you know, he loved the soap genre and was creative and innovative. So it’s little things like that, you know, that will make you stand out, I think.

– Yeah, I think that’s a great story of just that kind of idea of doing something a bit off piece, a bit different, you know, that makes you a sort of different kind of candidate. I mean, I’m getting a lot of questions about entry level jobs, script side and production side.

I mean, again, I personally came in a sort of weird circuitous route. I got a job, I was a really fast typist. I learned to type when I was 18 and I got a job as a PA but it happened to be at Disney, so I worked for this…

What I did not know this sort of department of development for international productions in this, you know, mad heightened world of Disney. And then very, very quickly my boss moved on to CBBC drama and upped me to development assistant. And from there I navigated off to script editor and producer through the BBC

And the BBC and some of our big broadcasters can be great ways actually to sort of improve your chances because they do have still those sort of training opportunities from within, don’t they? Those networks. But there are really multiple ways in, aren’t there? From temp secretary as I was to researcher to archivists

And casualty, we had specifically kind of medical researchers who were looking always at the detail of the scripts that the writers were writing, make sure those procedures have been passed by medics and doctors and paramedics, et cetera, to see that they were on point.

So there’s just so many different ways to come at it and it’s almost about picking one and being as tenacious as you possibly can to push through, as you say, the kind of, sometimes the halls of people are already queuing up. Okay. I’m gonna talk…

Again, I’m sort of seeing these questions come out and they’re good questions, so I’m gonna inform the debate a little bit with those. So let’s talk a bit about the areas, the hubs for these big shows. So, you know, for those again, who haven’t really necessarily thought about this area

Before tuning into this panel, or are just starting to think about it. You know, “Emmerdale,” “EastEnders,” “Coronation Street,” “Hollyoaks,” as it was “Doctors,” and “Holby,” “Casualty,” they all are in different places, aren’t they? They all have a unique sort of nations and regions sort of stamp on them.

Phil, do you wanna talk a little bit about that sort of thing, where you go and how you pick a show and what kind of, you know, places are real hubs. – Yeah, I suppose just to work with that list that you were mentioning there, Jane,

You’ve got this “River City” isn’t it, in… I always get these confused. “River City” in Scotland, “Fair City” in Ireland. And then there’s… I won’t mess up the pronunciation Pobol- – “Pobol y Cwm.” – “Pobol y Cwm” in Wales. So I mean ultimately you go where you… You should approach them all.

You should approach the ones that you’re most passionate about and kinda most familiar with in the first instance. But invariably you’ll end up going with wherever you get a bit of interest or a bit of a bite. And again, sort of elements we’ve been talking about

Is in this industry in particular, being willing to travel because you inevitably, you won’t get to choose kind of ideally somewhere near to you necessarily. Your first job may come up in Scotland or might be in Ireland or across the Wales and yeah, you kind of jump on whatever those opportunities were.

And once you’ve kind of started making those contacts and those networks, particularly within continuing drama, it’s a lot of the same individuals and networks and communities that you will see kind of going from one show to the other. So it does become a kind of slipstream and trading game

As they poach stuff from one show to the other as well. That’ll enable you to travel onto a different show or somewhere that’s more close to home or some show that speaks closer to your tastes and your kind of writing style or editorial or audience interest. ‘Cause they each have a different personality

And kind of USP to each of those shows. So yeah, kind of a blanket approach to everybody and everyone in the first instance and then honing it down to kind of, yeah, probably coming somewhere closer to home. – It’s brilliant, isn’t it? There are so many opportunities out there,

But you’re right, you’ve got to almost hone in on the kind of shows that you feel you’re passionate about in that first instance and that you can bring something to the table because you’ve watched them, you know them, you love them, you’re dedicated to that sort of vision.

– And mine obviously being “Emmerdale,” you know, I was born and… Yeah, born and brought up in Harrogate nearly and to kind of note. So that felt like the natural soap to kind of go and find work at and that might most closely align with my life and background in that sense.

– Could I just jump in Jane just to say I think, you know, if you are able to travel, just go wherever you can get an opportunity. I’ve worked up at “River City,” it was a great experience, but I’d never watched an episode in my life.

’cause obviously it’s not even on tele in England. But, you know, obviously I did my research before I went and applied for the job and, you know, I managed to convince them, you know, I could be a fan of the show. You really should… If you’re really interested in getting into soap,

Then, you know, there are various places that you can look. All the big broadcasters have their own websites and they often have entry level positions. I happen to notice that “Emmerdale” is currently recruiting for a story assistant that would be the perfect kind of entry into the industry.

A lot of these shows now, because they have quite a high turnover of staff because, you know, people generally will be looking for their next move, career move in two or three years. There are very strong career paths, which means that these jobs do come up quite often.

The big long running shows are all very focused on improving diversity these days as well, quite rightly. And so they also run a lot of schemes to try and find new writers, underrepresented writers. I know at the moment on the Channel 4 careers website, they’ve got a writer’s scheme

That’s running in Leeds, Bristol and Glasgow. So these are all opportunities, you know, that you can go out and look for. ITV have been running a scheme for a number of years now, which has been really successful, which is called Original Voices. So I think that the application process for that

Will probably open later in the year. So again, keep your eyes out open for that because they’re great ways to, you know, get a foot in the door as it were. – And the BBC writer’s room, just to add that in as well has been an entry point for many, you know, young,

Inexperienced, non-agented by the way writer. ‘Cause there are a few questions about do you need an agent and, you know, often you do to really, really break through, but there are those entry points as you say, where if you are, you know, not at that point yet,

You can get an opportunity to get your script read, get some feedback, and hopefully make it down to the final 10 and get some further training. – There is the opportunity for it to become international career as well in terms of, you know, the skills you learn in storytelling

And particularly in continuing drama storytelling. There are lots of big international companies that then will take individuals who kind of demonstrated experience in those space and you can go and work all around the world, you know, consulting or setting up on other shows. There’s obviously these shows, you know,

Three or four in every country, they’re tried and tested. So it can be a global business if you choose to go that way. – Yeah, I mean at one point when there was a little bit of a lull in my career in the UK I went and storylined a Cambodian soap

And I’ve just recently done some work in the United Arab Emirates as well. So yeah, that’s been great to be able to travel and yeah, share my story knowhow. – Yeah, not quite so, but I did a lot of work in children’s drama as well,

Which were long running series and there was always because of tough funding issues there that co-production analysis, you know, and I did co-pros with Australia and Canada and travelled to those places and learn, you know, different methodologies as you say around a sort of global marketplace.

So it really, you know, it is not just restricted to this nation, is it? There’s a lot of equivalence out there in the international world. Right. I’m gonna go back to Kodjo. Kodjo, you are a director. – Yes. – In film and television, could there be a cooler job

Or job title, number one? But number two, I’ve got a number of questions coming up about the sort of content and what you get to do because it isn’t just, you know, people sat on sofas ringing their hands, is it? You get a lot of scope sometimes in these shows,

Now you’re involved in stunts, you’re involved of lots of different elements. Do you wanna talk us through that sort of area when you get big eps or special eps to do? – Absolutely, absolutely. I wanna start by sort of leapfrogging off something that Emily and Phil have both said

About sort of benefits of working in continuing drama. They spoke of the immediacy of the storytelling, et cetera. And also being able to touch on current issues whilst they still remain in the public light as well. Also as a director, the benefit of working in continuing drama

Is the fact that say for example, you’re working on a show like “Doctors,” you are gonna have a range of different stories being told in your block of three episodes, maybe comedy, drama, horror, thriller. And you’re gonna be able to as well as sort of flex those directorial muscles and see

And trial different ways of telling these stories. Over time, you’re gonna develop your own voice at the same time as well. And if you’re constantly doing that, so for example, the last sort of six years I have been working apart from the pandemic, of course, pretty consistently. That six years

That I’ve been just trialling out different methods of different storytelling within different shows and different house styles, but still also at the same time doing what I want to do within that. So yeah, no better training ground than that. I’ve forgotten your original question. – It was really-

– [Kodjo] I think I went off on a tangent. – About, you know, those… You’ve sort of answered it, we’re talking about the variety and the different genres, but there were specific questions about, you know, do you get to do stunts and different kinds of things, but yeah, you do, right?

– Well, absolutely, and actually thanks to Phil, actually, I actually got to do my very first stunt a couple of years ago crashing a mini bus. And I’m back at “Hollyoaks” doing another one. I can’t tell you what it’s about though ’cause, you know, it’s a big secret.

– Oh, you almost let it slip there. We almost- – I know I did. I almost did, almost did. But yeah, you never know what you’re getting into. You might sign up for a block of “Doctors,” Hollyoaks,” “Coronation Street,” you never quite know what’s there. And it’s always a nice little surprise

If it’s something that’s particularly juicy. Sometimes you might get hired as a director because you’ve shown a particular sort of strength in a particular discipline or a particular topic as well. But it’s all good. The variety is… It’s brilliant. That’s all I can say. The the possibilities are endless as well. So-

– Just that thing where you never know what you’re gonna get when you open the pages of that script, I think is an absolute joy, it’s intoxicating. – And the opportunity to change lives. You know, it’s sort of… You talk about it and we joke about it in the industry,

But it’s proven and it’s true, you know, as we’ve seen with “Mr Bates vs The Post Office,” big ITB drama, government policy changes laws, soap’s been doing that for years, you know, and two or three times a year, if you’re lucky enough, you’ll find the story kind of from your research

And from your real life that, yeah, changes people’s lives, saves lives, educates, informs, and changes policies and laws. There’s no other kind of medium that can do that as voraciously as continued drama and soap can, and that’s again, like I think Kodjo and Emily were talking about a real privilege,

Real responsibility as well within kind of making sure that those stories are told authentically and effectively. – I think it’s a brilliant point. I’m gonna reinforce it further because, you know, I was just reading some research to this panel, you know, background of the Home Office getting involved in stories

And various different organisations. And I know Emily with “Hollyoaks,” there were lots of associations there at the research stage where we were talking to like-minded organisations about some of the hard hitting themes that… And issues that young people were dealing with. And there’s a real tangible responsibility there, isn’t there?

– Yes, there absolutely is. But I think those are the stories that, you know, I’m most proud of really, you know, that shine a light on issues that wouldn’t normally get airtime and yeah, we did all sorts of… At “Hollyoaks,” we did far right storyline I was incredibly proud of.

Consent storyline and not just issues per se, but people’s conditions, things, you know, that’s also very helpful, you know, to give… We’re telling a story at the moment about Paul’s MND at the moment on “Coronation Street.” And it’s been a wonderful story, but very meticulously researched.

When we first have an idea for a story like that, you know, the writer will pitch it, but they’ve probably only got their information from Google at that point. So then, you know, the story team and the researchers particularly spend a lot of time getting in touch with the…

Well, in this case the MND society. I spent a long time on a call with somebody who was suffering MND and was in quite late stages to hear about their story and the things that they were particularly finding difficult or, you know, the things that they felt were important

That people should understand and recognise about the condition, you know. So to hear that from somebody who was, you know, experiencing it in the here and now was really moving. But we’ve taken a lot of what he said and put it on screen and you know, that’s what makes the drama so powerful

Because it feels really authentic. So yeah, we do that with any story that’s an issue based story. It’s really important to get the facts correct. – Great, thank you. Yeah, absolutely, topicality. The idea of getting into soap or a long running series, you know,

Getting on that first rung on the ladder can feel very, you know, nebulous I think for some of the young people listening. So I’m going back to it and I’m getting a lot of questions about it. I mean, a day in the life, it’s not a nine to five job, is it?

As you’ve alluded to, Emily, I mean Phil, can you talk us through a sort of average day, let’s say in the storyline office and then I’ll get Kodjo to talk about how we manage a day on set and timings and so on. ‘Cause it really is not just you wondering

With your cappuccino about 10 past 10 is it, and check out. – I mean, some people do. – It wasn’t really in my experience, but. – Story office, I mean the story office is the real engine room kind of assembly touched upon if you get the opportunity to go and work in a story office, absolutely a hundred percent that is kind of where you are born from fire

As it were really, you know, it’s great. It’s also one of the hardest gigs I think in the industry full of the most talented people, most hardworking people. Story generation is one of those, it just, it sits with you permanently. You know, it’s kind of, it exists, it’s a 24 hour job

And so yeah, you might be in the office from nine till six, but you’re always revising and thinking of stories and kind of wanting to come in and pitch other elements. And then it is particularly or can be particularly rough during publishing week as well. You know, you’re working,

You could be working till the small hours of the morning three or four nights a week similar to, you know, well what I imagine, you know, if you work on a newspaper and those kind of delivery deadlines, a deadline is a deadline and so you’ll work whatever hours needed

To kind of get to it. The industry is endeavouring to improve that because equally, you know, you need to have a balance and you need to have a life and kind of not be permanently working inconceivable hours. So it has got a lot better,

But yeah, it is a kind of constant 24 hour job really in that sense. – And Kodjo, what’s your day like on set when you rock up for your bacon roll first thing, day one? – Oh I miss bacon rolls. When I gave up breakfast, that was the first thing I missed.

So when you got the three stages of, you know, of that directorial sort of block if you like, you’ve got your prep, you’ve got your production, you’ve got post-production. During prep, you can basically make up your own hours. A lot of directors tend to work from home these days,

But I prefer going into the office wherever I’m working, go in from about nine o’clock and work till about five, six o’clock. Shooting is very, very, very different. We’re starting early. We’ve gotta be on set for eight o’clock. So I’m typically leaving my accommodation at quarter past seven in the morning

To arrive at set for eight o’clock. Wrap is anywhere between 6:30 and seven o’clock and you know, for however many weeks your shoot is. But the thing is all that while your brain is constantly working, trying to work out the most efficient way. Even though you might have done your camera plans,

You’ve got your shot list, you’re pretty sure that it’s going to work, but you’re still revising everything ’cause you wanna make sure it’s the most economic, most dramatic way of telling these stories. So you’re not really getting a sort of… You don’t really get a break

And then when it’s all said and done, you run it to the edit then and things calm down a little bit. – You might have your cappuccino then in the edit- – You might have a cappuccino, you might treat yourself to a bacon sandwich (indistinct) and yeah.

So it’s kind of that then ah, then that. – Yeah, yeah. – We you probably mention as well the entry level roles that we’ve kind of all talked about. The most common entry level role in is runner, you know, called a role runner. And you’ll get floor runners

Who are the runners, you work on the shoot and then office runners or kind of editorial runners who work in the office or behind the scenes. Or if you’re working for a kind of indie company. Yeah, just an office runner for that company. And that’s the most common route in

To kind of then expose you to everybody within the organisation. And yeah, it’s kind of… A runner is the sort of assistant for everybody really. It’s sort of disparagingly referred to as tea person role. – Oh, dropped out there. – (indistinct) on mute, yeah. Doing all the jobs that nobody else

Necessarily wants to do, photocopy and stapling and all the rest of it. But yeah, one or two years in those roles, which I think we’ve probably all done on this call. You’re kind of, you’re just chatting to everybody. You’re looking for those next options.

If you’ve got some spec scripts in your back pocket, you’re putting ’em under the producer’s nose and kind of asking if they’ll have a read of that, give you any notes. And yet utilising all of your networking skills announced to kind of keep progressing in the industry via that route.

– I think photocopying time is very underestimated. It’s a good daydreaming time, I find. You can just let your- – You also see all the budgets, you’re never… I was thinking back before we jumped on this call, you’re exposed to everything in those organisations.

So you’ll see all the breakdown of who’s getting paid what, all this stuff. And so you’re (indistinct) – Oh yes, You always flip through those documents your photocopying, no problem. Listen, we’re into the final stages of this panel and so I’m gonna go fast and furious with some Q and As

’cause we’ve got a lot still lined up here. Emily, coming to you first, I’m gonna give you two quick questions to answer. Number one, “Is there a way to see examples of scripts of soaps like “Coronation Street”” and that’s from anonymous who I think is probably a writer on EastEnders,

But anyway, can they see scripts anywhere? – Not that I know of actually. However, on the BBC writer’s room, I’m pretty sure they do publish examples actually. And I bet you there’s an “EastEnder” script on there. I would guess, I don’t think ITV do the same,

But that would be the best place to look. – Gotta get in the door, anonymous, to read those scripts, I’m afraid. – Yeah. Absolutely, yeah (indistinct). – Sorry. Yes. And another one, very specific from Tom Morris, “The recent “Corrie” and “Emmerdale” storyliner and assistant storyliner adverts.

Specified they were a fixed term, they were for 12 months. Out of curiosity, do people tend to stay longer or are they very finite roles?” – Yeah, no, that role, if you’ve succeeded in that role and they thought that, you know, you were going to develop further,

Then they would definitely keep you on beyond that. But it’s very normal in… I mean, Phil mentioned before, most jobs in television are freelance jobs. So they literally just last a few months. In terms of the continuing drama. There are staff jobs, but they will always give you a fixed term first

Just to check that you are the right person for the job. – The anecdotal sort of notion of working in story office, you’re looking at about three or four… If you’re succeeding in that, three or four years to kind of A, really learn everything you need to learn.

But by that point you’re generally a bit burnt out and need to step away from it and possibly do something else because it is such an exhausting creative role. Yeah, it takes everything from you and the shows will ring you out of all of your ideas

And story juice and then yeah, kind of let you go and try something else for a bit maybe. – Then you have to go off and have a life and have things happen to you and then you bring all those ideas back to the-

– But a lot of storyliners do go on to be writers and they go directly from storyliners to writers because they’ll get the opportunity to do a trial script or some storyliners decide that they want to move up through editorial. So will become a story editor and then a story producer

And then a series producer or they might sidestep and become a script editor and then a script producer and then a series producer. So there’s options. Not everybody in a story line office wants to be a writer, but a lot of them do. – Right.

Kodjo, I’ve got a director’s couple of questions here I might bring in Phil to answer the last bit ’cause he’s had, you know, all his media training. “How much involvement does the director have in the casting of continuous dramas? Would you cast the day players or help cast any of the regular parts?”

– So as a general rule of thumb, any major characters that are returning over multiple blocks or multiple, you know, episodes, et cetera, that’s usually the realm of the executive producer and the… I think on “Doctors” it was the executive producer and the series producer. – Series, yeah. – Elsewhere…

So basically like as a director, I only get to really choose day players- – And on the cast question hill, I’m gonna hop to you Phil. How involved can or are cast allowed to get in their storylines would you say having had some of those conversations? – In storylines?

I mean, it’s always invited and kind of welcomed. You know, like we said, they know their characters inside out and they’ve been living in those characters. So yes, they kind of talk to you about the ideas and there can be something in there

That the story office can take away and make something of. But probably largely story generation, obviously, it’s a writer’s led medium and you’ve got a room of 25 to 30 very talented, brilliant individuals who were also working with this story office and the editorial teams kind of doing this day in, day out.

So that’s largely where you’re generating things from and, you know, you will then offer up those ideas to that room and see what can be shaped from them. – And quickly, Phil- – The diplomatic answer for you, Jane, – It was, it was very media trained.

I’m very impressed, but just to tag on it, it’s a bit of a different sidestep, but generally anonymous has again asked “Who’s generally responsible for crewing up on the soaps, what’s their job title, who’s that person in the team that they can go (indistinct) and nag?” – It’s usually the production manager.

– Yeah, yeah. There are a number of roles, aren’t there? I mean there’s line producers and associate producers and production managers. Generally you’ll have to fish around a bit and probably- – Head of production is yeah, the kind of… Overseas everything in terms of production roles

And you’ll find one of those on most shows. So look at your credits of who the head of production is and then approach them and their assistant also. – I’m flying fast through these as well. Sam has also asked, “When you’re bringing a character back

From the dead, i.e Den Watts, Kathy Beale, Cindy Beale. How long do you have to keep the secret?” Now this is the key thing we haven’t talked about actually, because is it hard to keep stern and how long do you have to keep these secrets sometimes in your head and on the page?

– Well, as a director, I’ve gotta keep my mouth shut until it goes out, but I’m quite a dab hand at keeping secrets, so yeah, it’s all good. – Emily, can this sometimes be years in advance and on the press kind of tapping your phones

To find out if Cindy Beale is on her way back? – We did once… We were going to set microphones up in the conference room to help people hear and then were told we couldn’t because sometimes there’s a Sun journalist that taps into the radio frequencies to find out what’s going on.

Obviously there’s a lot of press interest about some of these characters and some of these storylines, so we have to keep everything really, really confidential. There’s lots of processes in place to make sure that we do that. You know, for example, your name is watermarked on your script

So that if you leave it on the train, they’ll know whose it is and whose broken protocol. So it’s really important because obviously the audience, you know, there are very few secrets that you can keep right up to transmission and often the press, you know, that’s part of their job, isn’t it?

Generating enthusiasm and expectation and, you know, so they will often leak things on purpose to make sure that there are bums on seats when the big reveal happens. So it’s a fine balance. – And it can be years, you know, the conference system, the story conference Emily was talking about at the top,

You have a long-term conference. You might have two or three long-term conferences every year where you’re pitching stories one or two years down the line. But even within those, you know, as you sit with a show for three to four or five years, you will see an idea

That might have been kind of pitched three years ago for one character resurfaced three years down the line, or be pitched every year and then finally finds the character its most kind of suited to and land with. And there was… It was Ashley’s dementia on “Emmerdale”

That we kind of saw a story with that fit… That was there for about four years being pitched in various forms for various characters before it landed with kind of who everybody really thought that really could succeed with. So yeah, it can be an awfully long time

Where people are sitting on those kind of fates of characters. – Listen, we are nearing the end of our session. I hope this has been of value to all of the young people who’ve tuned in and will continue to watch, hopefully on YouTube. I think we’ve highlighted, you know,

Some key ways to get into the industry and some of the attributes you can work upon. And we’ve looked at being a sponge and forming relationships with people, talking about new entrance sort of schemes into the soaps. And you’ve got in front of you, these three people

Who’ve talked a bit about their background, who’ve… I think I worked out between you, you’ve worked across about 3000 episodes of this stuff. So these are the people that are definitely in the know. Is there any final words on particular attributes or, you know, anything else you want to say to people

Who are coming into the industry? Me personally, I sort of say bring your passion. You know, you’re gonna need all of it, but it absolutely is such a rewarding place either to linger longer and stay and have your whole career or to jump in and out of and get varying different experiences.

Anyone else want to add to the mix on some final words? – So I would just say make yourself memorable and, you know, and keep at it. Don’t give up because it really is a wonderful career. I can’t… You know, I can’t speak more highly of it really.

– I would endorse that, I would say, yeah, resilience, but also like, it sounds enough, but just be kind. There’s a lot of sharks in the world we don’t necessarily need anymore. And yeah, being nice and enjoying what you’re doing and being nice to the people around you whilst you’re doing it.

– And on top of that, I’d say never stop learning. You know, even if you get your foot through the door, that’s not a time to rest on your laurels. It’s an opportunity to keep learning, keep evolving, and keep getting better. That’s all it is. Yeah.

– Fantastic. Thank you all so much, Kodjo, Emily and Phil and thank you from myself, Jane Steventon. I hope you’ve enjoyed this session and we look forward to hearing any feedback on YouTube and beyond. And good luck to all of you in your future careers.