Mysteries and Monsters: Episode 276 The Aintree Spectres with Dr Rob Gandy

A series of strange sightings were reported in the 1970’s and 80’s in Aintree, famous of course as the home of the Grand National . Witnesses were perplexed by the sight of torch bearing figures wandering in a field.

Hushed tales of nefarious deeds, secret socities and even cults were blamed but just what was going on and could anyone find out who was responsible.

Returning after too long an absence to the show is our good friend, Dr Rob Gandy who tried to get to the bottom of this weird set of sightings.

Thank you as always to to Dr Gandy for joining me once more.

Had an experience with a ghostly encounter on or by a road then email Dr Gandy at his email which is robgandyphh@gmail.com

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You’re about to enter into a new world of knowledge Curiosities and high strangeness this is a podcast of straight up strange Productions you’re listening to Mysteries and Monsters I’m your host Paul bestto a series of strange sightings were reported in anry near Liverpool in the 1970s and 80s that perplexed the

Witnesses that encountered it groups of white robed figures carrying torches were seen and hush Tales of Nefarious activities were shared but just what was going on returning to tell us all about this peculiar case is our good friend Dr Rob gandhy who dives headlong into this

Strange case we also cover a couple of strange Road ghost cases too but before that as always don’t forget you can support Mysteries and Monsters by signing up at patreon.com Mysteries and Monsters $4 a month gets you adree episodes guaranteed early releases bonus content and more

You can also click the link in the show notes as always and thank you to each and every one of my patrons for your continued support you can find Mysteries and Monsters across all social media platforms please subscribe to the Mysteries and Monsters Channel on YouTube you can also visit mysteries

Andm monsters.com for episodes news and merchandise our intro and outro music are performed by The Marvelous weary Pines thank you to Dean bestall for His Marvelous artwork the show is produced by Brennan store of the ghost story guys and Mysteries and Monsters is delighted to be a part of the straightup strange

Network so let us join Dr gandhy to try and uncover The Mystery of the Ang tree specters having a haunted house is more than enough for many people but imagine coming upon one ghost luring along a road late at night motorists and passengers all over the world have reported encountering specters whilst

Out driving or walking or even they perhaps have picked up one of those notorious Phantom hitchikers returning to look into some of these cases it’s a long overdue return for Dr Rob gandhy Rob welcome oh thank you very much for inviting me Paul absolute pleasure absolute pleasure as I said whilst we

Were chatting about all things and everything before we started mostly uh laughing at each other’s football teams um essentially it’s it’s one of those things where I have to offer a humble apology Rob because you were a very popular guest you’ve been on twice before and I can’t believe it’s been

Three years since we’ve last had a nice chat so thank you for coming back oh no problem it doesn’t seem like three years but then again I think with everybody since Co I think everybody’s brains are scrambled yeah it seems like six months but it is

Three years it’s one of those things I think that 2020 to 2022 were basically merged into about three months I think for most of us I know what you mean so obviously Rob you’re one of those people that seems to specialize in a specific type of Haunting and obviously when we’ve spoken previously

We’ve we’ve dove into a couple of uh interesting cases in regards to this this wonderful phenomenon that still seems to hold a real menace to to some people who are into the the Paranormal which is these strange specters and ghosts and encounters that people have whether they’re driving or cycling or

Walking along roads all over not just the UK but beyond yep yeah I me I’ve been steadily collecting these things uh for the last few years I did Count recently and I reckon I’ve got over 180 first and secondhand testimonies I mean as you know I only I to say accept you

Know I I only u pull together first and secondhand uh testimonies and I just seem to get them sometimes completely at random and um you know somebody will pick up that um I did a call for you know people to get in touch with me for something

In Greater Manchester uh five years ago and then somebody’s thinking oh I’ve got problems with ghosts or what have you let’s see what’s going on and then they Google and and they come up with me and then they contact me and I you know nothing to do necessarily with what was

In the article but people are often looking for what what you describe as a sympathetic here so yeah it’s uh I’m still trugging along and uh I’m currently in the middle of uh some research and I’ve got about 10 testers linked to it which uh some of them are

Totally bizarre but that’s the nature of the game isn’t it it is it is and I think this is one of those things that often perplexes people because when it comes to certain types of hauntings there’s always people that will try and sort of give you these cliched reasons

Robin we’ll dive into this one of these particular cases that we’re going to look into into some depth shortly but often there there’s always these kind of things that oh well it it must have been an old church that this road’s been built over or perhaps it’s been built

Over a graveyard and and I think one of the things that’s always impressed me about the work you do Rob is that you’re very diligent in your research and your ability to pull Maps up and look at the history of particular areas because I think 20 30 years ago people would tell

A ghost story or they would share ghost stories or you read about them and it would always be you know the headless horsemen or the the Brokenhearted woman yes the the key question is with the headless horsemen and the Headless horses is where did they stick the rain very true very true absolutely

Absolutely I mean that is one of those perplexing things that often gets overlooked in these kind of stories and I think as we’ve developed and and as the internet has given us more abilities to be able to sort of search because I think often in the previous generations

Of of the Great Ghost Hunters that we would have it would be very difficult for the average person to sort of up sticks and drive to Devon to go investigate a certain haunting or something Rob whereas now you can log on you can look at maps you

Can find the history of a particular area you can go on ancestry.com you can see if these people really did die when they’re supposed to have died and I think we’ve got a far better ability now to be able to really dive into some of these stories and it’s it’s the ones

That survive the forensic eye that I think are the most compelling and the most perplexing because people will always dismiss these kind of stories and yet more and more of them when you look look at really good cases or really good events that are happening on a specific

Area or or or a stretch of road R the the normal explanations Fall Away very quickly sometimes yeah I mean the thing as you know I pretty well focused my efforts my research is on road ghosts for reasons that you’re familiar with but what’s different about Road ghosts compared

To some of the you know haunted Loc patients and whatever and um Danny Robins has done some really good stuff with the um uncanny where three TV programs he’s really dug deep into certain locations in the history yes the problem with Road ghosts is that they

Are so Emeral and any of these episodes tends to last no more than five maybe 10 seconds then and then it’s gone and um and usually of course people are driving you know that may be 50 or 60 mil an hour onest Constable that’s what I was

Doing I was not exceeding the speed limit and so the way that I look at it and this this is me you know being a statistici on my career I’m trying to collect lots of bits of data hoping that there can be some patterns from it

Because that’s all you can do you can’t you know somebody the the one of the typical types is somebody’s driving down the road a person steps out in front of them they run the person over they’re horrified they get out they look around they look around the car under the car

On top of the car there’s nothing there they get back in the car completely petrified drive home and you know down three large whiskies now and that’s it and that’s the problem there’s no more than that but the thing thing is when you actually sit back you realize that

There’s a lot of this going on in different places so you know patterns build up uh yeah it’s strange obviously a lot of people will be having these experiences and won’t necessarily tell anybody beyond their immediate family or friends which means that I’m probably just scraping the surface with my

Researchers yeah I suppose one of the the most perplexing aspects of of Road ghosts is is obviously the the the notorious Phantom hitchhiker do you still get reports of this CU I mean this is one of those things as well because here’s a here’s a fashion that seems to

Have completely dropped out of of of modern living really these days Rob not many people hit oh they’re all supposed to be dead aren’t they a phantom yes well this is the thing so do you still get reports of people or are people seeing characters thumbing a lift or

Something like that or is it that these are the kind of stories that have completely dropped away and and whilst as You’ mentioned there people see these Spirits or these figures stepping into the road or wandering strangely around roads that part of it the hitch seem to

Have gone I would I mean in my researches I have had I would say only one case which I could specifically say hand on har is a phantom hitchhiker plus it was a talking Phantom hitchhiker and uh uh yeah it’s a cracker but uh leave that for another

Day but but as you say it’s the it’s the uh the only one that I’ve got most of them are people driving along roads something stepping off or you know or with the ruskington horror spreading itself all over the wind screen and what or appearing to be s next to the driver

Or in the back right rather than you know anybody you know the not Yan Brun Van’s classic you know uh normally a a young man driving his car down hanger lane or you know or Gallows lane or something like that and then there’s this beautiful young lady or a woman um

Fing a lift I mean those stories have done the round because they’re good stories uh you know in terms of you know in the pub uh entertaining and your friends but they’ been tacked back decades but how many of them actually happened you know very very few um and I

I I think I I was in Communications with Yan bran who’s a great guy yes um I mean he’s I think he’s in his 90s now and uh he’s still fly fishing and he’s still doing skiing and all that uh in Utah um Super V great and um what he he he uh

Sent me a copy of a paper I’m going back uh a few years now that he wrote a while back and it was highlighting that things have changed really because of the internet and whereas people used to rely on going to the pub on a Friday night seeing the friends and somebody says

Here this is what happened to my friend or or no it was his Milkman or or or what have you and tell the story we’ll go wow that was you know cool then the next thing you do when you’re go to work you tell all your friends at work and so

It spreads these days if some if somebody got a story they put it on the internet yeah and then they’d share it on Facebook or whatever and then it had be forwarded by you know somebody to te some you know colleagues or people on their circuit uh and getting likes and

What have you it’s it’s a totally different ball game and the other side of it is that now you get people who are I’m not sure if they’re professional semi-professional or what who have got their YouTube channels and they’re zooming out um you know armed to the

Teeth with equipment uh you going around spooky houses or whatever or what they alleged to be spooky houses and some of them are you know questionably you know avoiding being breaking and entering possibly and so there’s money to be made you know because you you have uh all these

Followers and all subscribe to your channel so it it’s it’s all changed in many ways U but it’s changed for the for the better or not I’m not sure but at the end of the day not my standpoint is is that people do continue to have experiences and they aren’t necessarily um

Well they’re often quite reticent about coming forward and telling anybody other than outside you know within their own family or close friends basically for fear of ridicule and where I what I’m pleased to say is that I do get people come to me and trust me with their

Stories main because I I promise anonymity and uh what have you so yeah well it’s it’s a good point you bring up there though Rob because strangely enough in my normal day job I was mentioning and somebody said oh you got an interview tonight and then Paul I

Said oh yeah and told him exactly who I was speaking to and what it was going to be about and he said oh yeah my dad had an encounter with a road ghost when I was a kid growing up he was driving home one evening and saw a a ghost of a Horse

And Rider run across the road in front of him and he drove through it yeah and I was like oh you know we’ve worked together seven years you’ve never told me that story she went yeah we never really believed in but he’s always stuck

To it and he still says it now 45 years on yeah yeah that I mean that is classic you know um typical of of the situation and when I was giving a presentation to raise money for um the hospice near Southport uh Queens Court there was an advert out

Saying Rob gandi is going to talk about the U the old man of H Moss uh because I collect his stories across West Lancashire and uh I got this phone call from the hospice and said uh would I mind speaking to this guy called John um because he’s seen the advert and he

Wanted to tell me about his experience which was it involved him driving in an KNE type jaget a high speed across the Moss and then nearly hitting this farmer he looked like a farmer in like late 19th century Farmers clothing in the middle of the road he swered to avoid it

Shot yeah I mean the road was about six foot above the surrounding field um he shot through the air and landed about 10 15 yards away in the field the way that the structure of an KN type Jag is don’t ask me to describe it in detail cuz can’t remember the

Technical words it should have collapsed yeah uh on hitting the ground it didn’t um and when he looked back the farmer had gone anyway uh after a while um an ambulance came and picked him up talk to Southport uh a checked him over and he was fine he couldn’t understand goes

Back the next day and sees that the car’s there it’s okay and there’s only one house anywhere nearby uh about 100 yards away and so he goes over to it and say and thanks the uh the people who live there for ringing for the ambulance and they said we didn’t bring the

Ambulance so somehow the ambulance came out to pick him up from in the field where nobody’s seen him strange the point being that I mean he got photos of that he taken of the location and the e at that time probably for insurance purposes I dare

Say but he never told anybody for 40 years until he saw me or saw that I was about to give a talk about a road ghost in that same area so he told me his story from 40 years ago wow I mean you know it’s it’s pot look it’s Serendipity

And that’s what I I find uh I I just keep an open mind and open channels and uh hope that a new case will will uh you know come forward and often they do from the most um unexpected um directions one of which I’m going to talk about tonight

Indeed indeed So for anybody that’s that’s not aware obviously anry is a name synonymous in British horse racing and probably horse racing around the world as well as as one of the most well-known venues in the country arguably the most famous race um horse race in the world as you say so

How did the a Tre specters and the story surrounding them come to your attention then Rob what what drew it to you I I did a bit of research to see if there were any horses with paranormal names that might have won the Grand National

Yeah and it goes back about 150 years M and in all that time there were only two yeah and those weren’t particularly brilliant one was red Al Gator yes in 1968 which you know I I dare say Richard Freeman will get excited about spotting the red alligator um and the other one

1895 was the wild man from Borneo so they’re both a bit crypto Zoological yeah but uh you know that’s it I was quite surprised I thought there’s about to be something but no uh anyway how how I came to be aware of um of the a specters I

Mean the I I have to admit that the A3 specters is a name that I’ve given to the phenomenon um for obvious reasons there’s only so many names that you can use in the Lexicon of weirdness um and what I’m going to talk about this evening I had

My original article about it was in 40 in times back in December December 2020 which for those of your listeners who are sad enough to want to grab hold of it it f399 Pages 38 to 42 and then um a couple of years ago I went and uh gave a presentation at weird

Weekend North I weird weekend North 2022 m i I mentioned uh a couple of minutes ago about serendpity and this is what happened in that I I was contacted by a guy about his own experience and then he kind of like said oh well while I’m at it um you might

Like to hear what happened to my brother but the story that he told me is one of my top six road goes stories amongst everything that I’ve got so with your permission I thought I would tell you that one as a bit of a an apparative absolutely of course I’d be delighted to

Share that with us okay so was following uh My article in 14 times entitled strange stories from Southport that I was contacted by U Glenn Preston which is a pseudonym and um it he told me that back in mid to late August 1975 when he was only 15 years of age he

Was he went on a weekend trip to Shropshire with his mom and dad and he stayed at a campsite in either Arley or Hampton load which are south of uh Bridge North he was particularly interested in seeing the locomotive at bule station um on the seven Valley

Railway it’s a bit of a you know a train buff and the steam train that they were on uh got delayed at Hampton load station and everybody disembarked onto the sunny platform to wait interestingly this included a carriage full of nuns H right a Spitfire aircraft flew over and

Someone remarked that there was an air show nearby later that fine Sunday afternoon the family left for their home on Mery side then about 15 to 20 minutes into the journey which places them probably north of Bridge North on the a442 which is the most direct route uh

They were out in the countryside when suddenly to their left behind well at first it was behind a low hedge they saw the quite unmistakable shape of Concord what was ridiculous and remarkable was that its height speed and angle made it appeared that it was only

Just taking off it was about 10 to 15 ft off the ground Glenn recalls that the under Carriage was still deployed but accepts that his memory might have been filling gaps but all three of the family commented that it was just an or an ordinary Farmer’s field that he had

Seemingly taken off from Concord was was parallel to them also heading north and about 100 yards away Glenn can’t remember if any if there was any noise which you pretty well expect if he was so close but again this might just be his memory the airplane then disappeared

From view behind Hedges and trees as they continued up the road and it was then nowhere to be seen Glenn knew that there were that they weren’t near any Airfield and just tried to rationalize this event over the years maybe it was an air show but the

Nearest major air show is at cosford which is just outside W Hampton but no show but there was no show in 1975 and Concord only featured in 1986 and 1987 so maybe it was taking off from an air strip which was in the seven Valley beyond the field but the runway required

Would also be capable of handling a Boeing 747 jumbo jet no such air strip exists maybe it was experiencing trouble and so was flying very low but surely this would have made the national press so maybe it was something else alog together but Glenn has no doubt it was

Unmistakably a Concord therefore I I say that this episode must be filed as both strange and unsolved I mean a lot of people argue that um you know ghosts are like the spirits of the Dead well I’m not sure what the spirit of a Concord might

Be but there you go well it it it I’m always intrigued by ghost playing s because obviously not far from where I am Rob is the Pak District which is is notorious for people seeing bombers flying over there that shouldn’t be anywhere near the area and once again

They are often unique in the fact that the reason people are often taken by them is the fact that they cannot hear a sound yeah yeah it’s bizarre isn’t it yeah so I now move on and uh these are what you might describe as bizarre and frightening events that took place over

A number of years just outside the village of anry which is in the merys side burough of sefon it’s not in Liverpool now normally when I when I was doing my presentation at the uh we weekend North I was able to show maps it’s a bit hard

On the podcast isn’t it it is it is so so therefore if you and your listeners will are prepared to just um sit back and listen for a moment I will try and describe the maps uh about the location and the the the related views as well

Okay now now there there are certain clear geographical um uh characteristics about the area a a Tre itself is something of a bit of a sausage shaped uh location um because you’ve got on a big loop the leads Liverpool canal and then which like comes from the west and then Loops

Round um on the east side and then goes back up to the North in between this cutting right across it is the river Al which is a comparatively slow moving fairly Flat River the anry race course is actually on the opposite side of the uh the canal from anry Village itself

But intriguing coincidence in a Tre at the bottom of bullbridge Lane which is uh one of the main thars that I will be talking about is a pub called the Blue Anchor and it’s actually in that Pub that I was told my first um Road go

Story by my friend and colleague that I used to work for and that’s I used hisory as the old man of housle moss and it all it’s all gone on from there yeah so it’s a small world as they say but what You’ then got leading away uh

Northwards from the center of the village away from the race course you’ve got a a road called bullbridge Lane now it leads to shock horror bull bridge when you get over the that goes over the river alt and then when you go on to the other side it becomes

Spencer’s Lane which then goes in a a loop which like North and then East and ends up um just over the canal again in woda cutting through um is uh the M57 but that that’s an irrelevance to the story because most of the things that we’ve got that happened were before

The M57 was actually built now what uh I would say is that the length of the field in question is um which is on the one side on on its southern side is the river alt itself and the length of the field is approximately 700 M um on the

Main uh largest side and then its width ranges from 200 to about uh 360 M at its widest now uh I have in front of me uh the the view from bullbridge Over the riveral which is uh looking in a southeasterly Direction um to your right what you have is a of

Like bushes and brambles and so on for about 20 yards and then there’s a big hedge that runs parallel to the uh to the river with the occasional tree and on the other side of it there is a whole string of houses on your left youve got

The field in question which is Big open and flat typical Farmers field for growing crops but what’s important to note therefore is that if anything strange was going on in that field you’ve got a lot of houses that Overlook it so when you get over ball bridge to

Your right there is a turning and a a a track um concreted track uh from the road down into the field which is about one tractor’s width so this I believe is the main entrance for things that happened um but you can see that it’s just a straightforward in andout for uh

Farm equipment and such like when it comes to me getting informational testimonies I I started by as I said Glen had come to me and said do you want to know what happened to my brother of course said yes so I started everything by recording the testimonies from Glenn

And his family and to see if the other Witnesses I had what I call a call uh piece published in the anry and mailing issue of the champion newspaper on the 14th of November 2018 so the champion they’re the people those are the freb newspapers which go into every house uh

And they’re really helpful there they’re the ones who managed to get me a lot of testimonies to do with the old man of H Moss so the responses that I got back included people saying that the field in question was the site of a fatal air crash on Grand National Day in

1964 the journalist and broadcaster Nancy Spain and Joan Verner Lori who is the editor of she magazine were both killed however I drew one related story which I will come to but first I’ll return to Glenn’s older brother Jeff who was in his late teens at the time and he

Missed the last bus one Early Autumn night in either 196 7 or 1968 he was walking over bullbridge heading for the family home on Spencer’s Lane it was between 11:00 and 11:30 uh at night and the night was clear as I say this was before the M57 Motorway was built that stretch opened

In 1972 and there was no Street lighting therefore there was total darkness it was at this point that Jeff noticed lights to the right of him about 15 50 yards away in the field what he saw was a group of up to nine men carrying bright burning torches walking along the

Bank of the river alt heading away from him Southeast towards the Zach they were wearing grayish robes with pointed hoods similar in shape to those worn by the K CLS Clan and marching two or three AB breast in line like soldiers understandably Jeff was frightened and

Ran to his home where he got his father out of bed they went through the upstairs back bedroom window and could still see the torch lit procession over the fields Jeff was very scared mainly because he didn’t know who or what the procession was and decided to sleep on

His parents’ bedroom floor Glenn then tells about their parents who now both deceased driving home from forac around 9:30 p.m. to 10 p.m. 1 October or November night in the early 1970s the father had collected the mother from Bingo the they crossed bullbridge and saw in the same field to their right a

Dozen or so men holding bright burning torches and wearing robes some with pointed hoods they were standing in a circle as if they were involved in some magical Gathering the parents didn’t stop to look but saw the group clearly through the car windows it was fully

Dark at the time and the F and the father related later that it would have been impossible for the group not to have been seen by many dozens of people who use that Road despite this his inquiries over the next few days as to whether or not anyone else had seen the

Group was met with blank looks he wondered if perhaps this had been some sort of Halloween event but seemed to think that it was too early or too late for this he had quite expected it to be the talk of the village and was perplexed by the fact that seemingly no

One else had seen it quite by chance sometime later and un prompted by Glenn the father of one of his friends who was a security guard of the bicc works in meling told him of seeing the same or similar event whilst traveling that stretch of road on his moped during the

Early hours these events could be dismissed as nothing more than observations of a group of people with Lighty torches and robes messing about in a field however in the late 1980s the father was chatting to an old friend of his over a drink in the horse and jockey

Pu meling his friend had long since immigrated to Canada but was back in the country revisiting families and friends the conversation turned to the subject of the Supernatural and so the father started to relate his sighting of the group with torches and robes but before he got very far his old friend

Interjected saying that he knew exactly what he was going to say he had seen he then related how he had seen exactly the same sight while cycling back from a dance late one night but he’d observed the event from the lead’s Liverpool Canal on the other side of the

Field significantly the time when he had seen the lighted torch bearing group had occurred during the early stages of World War II when strict blackout procedures were in force which was well over 40 years previously the one response I got from my call was from a

Mrs H her testimony was as follows it was about 700 p.m. one evening around Christmas 40 or so years ago which would place it in the mid to late 1970s I was in our car with my husband and young daughter traveling back to our home in meling having been to see my

Mother-in-law in the VAC area it was very dark and it was Misty we crossed Bal Bridge onto Spencer’s Lane went immediately to our left and close to the road we saw a group of people all dressed in light outfits that look like those worn by the C CLS

Clan there were around half a dozen of them although it might have been as few as four or as many as eight it was difficult to judge in the circumstances and given that we passed them at a normal driving speed of around 30 mph their appearance was very scary and

A bit spooky and they looked as though they were getting ready to do something my immediate reaction was what are they up to none of them appear to be carrying anything and there were definitely no lights or torches naturally we didn’t stop to investigate as we were very very

Frightened I am a lifelong resident of meling and was in my 30s at the time I have seen nothing like what we saw that night before or since my husband who is now deceased and I never forgot this experience and talked about it on many occasions although we never heard of

Anyone else having the same or similar experience so that there is a series of events of apparently the same thing phenomenon taking place in the same location over a long period is definitely strange several witnesses naturally inferred a paranormal Source but what is striking is how long Jeff

Preston saw the specters for on the night in question Jeff’s running may be the best part of 700 meters home waking his father and them then watching the procession will have involved many minutes paranormal events tend to be quite transient and short the fact that the specters all behave

Like people dressed up rather than performing Fantastical Feats or fading from sigh in some ghostly way suggests a flesh and blood explanation but given that the field is so large and open and close to a busy road and housing any group of people undertaking the activities described

Should expect to be readily observed and challenged not least by the police Andor the farmer who uses the field M if it was some clandestine or magical group then how did the participants get there as in none of the events described was their reference to a series of cars

Parked up on the side of the road by the field if any group was undertaking some magical practices then there must be something particular and special about the field for them to a keep returning and B Place themselves at such risk of observation to investigate if there was

Some past presence on the field I studied available maps at Liverpool Central Library historically the core of a tree was a small linear settlement to the east of the center of the current Township heading up bullbridge Lane I.E towards and close to the field in question in all maps back to

1786 the field was simply Farmland the henet map which is from 1830 shows a mill on the river alt and it it can be noticed that the river Al meandered quite a lot at that time and this is since then being straighten to what it

Is now the map also marks a chapel on the far left of the crossroads which are approximately 200 M up from bullbridge apparently this was a Methodist Chapel if you compare Maps the chapel was built between 1818 and 1830 which means that it is not historic in 1847 to 49

Carhouse Farm is in the middle of the field and Chapel Cottages are seen where the chapel was recorded previously looking at current maps it appears that the Works building near to the motorway is on the site of carhouse farm and the road to it follows the original Farm Road now interestingly as

A bit of an aside what is interesting is that where you’ve got the field on the opposite side to it on the other side of the Le Liverpool Canal there is in big letters hob Lane big long Lane in what is now Kirby it no longer exists it’s been subsumed within Kirby

Although there is uh like a walkway which has retained the name but we all know that um the use of the word hob has um Sinister or paranormal um uh suggestions in the name so that’s one to bear in mind a local farmer told me that the field is good farming land

Which is part of Lord sefton’s estate which was sold off in the 1950s or the 1960s for building houses but as it is on a flood plane it is unlikely that buildings will ever take place consequently the land is farmed by tenant Farmers so there has never been anything

Special historically about the field like a medieval Monastery that might attract a magical group I asked the father if he or anyone he knows had witnessed any specters he said his family had been in the area since 1933 and he has been around for over 60

Years and knows a lot of people he has never seen anything or known anyone who has seen anything but he has heard rumors at times via an intermediary I also contacted the current owners of mil Farm which overlooks the field from across the river alt they’ve lived there for 30 years and

Have never seen or heard anything which suggests that nothing similar has occurred since the late 1980s has it to do with Christian fundamentalists or even the K clu’s Clan H given the witness to Peril and suspicion some sort of magical group might be involved I asked my weird Weare

North friend Steve Jones a practicing Pagan if he was aware of any such group in the area he posted my question on his Facebook account and that of other Pagan groups this resulted in a testimony from Mark one of his Pagan friends which I will read to you now whilst at

University in Liverpool during the mid 1980s I was interested in spiritual things and was looking for a form of Christianity I could feel comfortable with I dabbled with a number of opportunities including being born again around 1985 86 however I had reservations because it didn’t feel

Right and I was not persuaded by a billy Gro Revival meeting anfield in Liverpool in 1984 nevertheless I allowed a girl like I FY to talk me into going to a meeting of evangelicals in the Sports Hall out in as he recalls in Kirby the Evangelical group appeared to

Have been well established for some time reflected in the fact that he had hired the Sports Hall for the evening there were lots of people there mostly people in their 20s and 30s although some were older I went twice but each occasion caused me deep disqui it was full-on

Stuff I remember people speaking in tongues and reciting long Bible passages from memory in trans like States everything in fact except the wrestling of snakes as a newbie and Outsider I found that I could see no main focus nevertheless it was clear that there was a secretive Inner Circle whose members

Definitely LED things what stood out for me was the treatment of a former member who had apparently gone to the dark side no all right no more Star Wars I remember people being instructed not to interact with him in any way and to go to the other side of the street to

Ignore him Etc as he was quotes controlled by the devil I found it scary when talking to people that some identify themselves as social workers lawyers teachers and similar with almost all saying that they were not from the area but had been called there by God these people absolutely believed in the

Physicality of evil and the devil I never went back after the second visit I asked Mark if you thought that dressing up in K cl’s Clan typed clothes and parading around a field at night with burning torches might be the sort of thing that such a secretive Inner Circle

Might get up to away from the main group he said that given the level of weirdness he’d witnessed he guesses that this could well be the case it should be noted that the main Sports Center in Kirby is no more than 3 mil from the field in question less than a 10 minute

Drive following on from Mark story I contacted Mery side anti-fascist Network to see if they were aware of any local right-wing cook Clan type groups that could be linked to such Christian fundamentalists no one had heard of anything that could be related although there were one or two inevitable speculations by February

2019 I felt that I had exhausted all reasonable Avenues of inquiry but by chance in May I read Tom San’s haunted WHL article in the WHL Globe local fre weekly paper what caught my eye was reference to attacks vandalizing graves in Ford Cemetery in ble which is just

Over three miles from bullbridge Lane in 1974 where Witnesses described weird hooded figures in Rob’s reminiscence of the those worn by the Klux Clan only the hoods had bizarre exaggerated noses made from cones of fabric stitched onto them some argued that they were members of an ancient sect of Druid likee Warriors

Known as The Lily white boys he also referred to other graveyard desecrations in bootle and birkenhead as late as 1982 the latter incident had the Lily white boys waving swords and chasing a couple at 1:00 a.m. to the girl’s home on Suna Road which was at least a quarter of a

Mile away Tom’s website says they are a sun worshiping cult predating Christianity which practices animal and allegedly once child sacrifice they are referenced in the ancient folk song called Green Grow the Russo with the line two two Lily white boys clothed all in green so what I’ve got here because I

Appreciate that some of your listeners won’t necessarily be familiar with the song I got a YouTube recording of it here which I will play the first little bit for you it’s performed by King Solomon singers recorded live at St josephat Church Chicago July 26 2015 and shall be so I’ll sing you to [Applause] so there you have the reference to the Lily white boys apparently they’ve been seen for hundreds of years across the country but on Mery side they congregate at specific times of year at four locations we’s bidston Hill baring park on the Liverpool heighten border delir forest and a field between woda and

Meling of course this is the field that I had been investigating Tom describes one incident as follows one Harvest Moon night in the 1970s Brian and Tina a young couple traveling HS down bullbridge Lane in entry saw a circle of figures in green robes standing in a field around a

Bonfire and one of the figures was holding what looked like a small doll likee Effigy Brian got out of his near the river alt to get a better look at the strange ceremony and asked an old passer by what was going on it’s the Lily white boys burning a child said the

Oldster Gravely and he advised Brian not to go anywhere near the group or they would kill him too you’re joking said Brian that’s some guy folks thing they’re burning isn’t it but the old man shook his head solemnly Brian raced home and called the police but only the

Charge remains of a sheep was found in the smoldering vestages on the following day some also refers to incidents in World War II one had ARP wardens investigating a huge bonfire in Baron Park during a blackout and being faced with green robed men and naked women

Dancing around the fire with five or six of these men wielding sides and swords this ties in time wise with the experience of Glenn and Jeff’s father’s friend who had immigrated to Canada I asked Jeff and Mrs H if these descriptions fitted with the figures they saw Jeff didn’t recall any

Exaggerated noses but then the figures he saw were at a distance and heading away from him and if the color is a light green then it would be quite difficult to distinguish this in the torch light from the grayish color that he recalls similarly for Mrs H A light

Green outfit could Well appear white or light colored went partly illuminated by car headlights when traveling at 30 m hour she could not recall any exaggerated noses so what’s going on all was all was going on we should say Yes um I tried contacting Tom slamman via

The wh Globe so as to compare notes and sources and ask if he knew whether the robes were dark or light green unfortunately Tom didn’t get back to me it’s intriguing his stories about the Lily white boys T well with the first and secondhand testimonies that I have

Collected in terms of both appearance and some of the actions his earliest references to incidents were in World War II and his last reference was in the early 1980s again consistent with testimonies that I collected it can be concluded that these specters or whatever they are have been seen on

Several occasions from the mid to late 1960s to the mid to late 1970s and possibly as far back as World War II and as recent as the early 1980s there was great consistency in where and what was witnessed suggesting a single if infrequent phenomenon understandably Witnesses believ something paranormal or

Supernatural could be involved because they were so scared but everything points to human involvement of course the outfits were not necessarily C can related because pointed hats of a conical form caparo if that’s the Spanish pronunciation in the black country we say karats are part of the uniforms of some

Brotherhoods during Easter observances and reenactments in some areas during Holy Week in Spain yes religious robes specific to a cult such as the Lily white boys would make a lot of sense nevertheless it would be imprudent to exclude the possibility that the motivation behind the activities was

Malevolent and or political the maps did not indicate any explicit ancient presence on the site which might attract a magical group on a recurring basis however Captain Moonlight which I presume is a pseudonym States anry derives its name from the Anglo-Saxon an trial meaning one tree and that one tree

Was an ancient sprawling Oak sacred to The Druids and the Lily white boys Cult of nature worshippers alternatively it might simply be that it is large reasonably out of the way and convenient for the participants the timing of Mark’s experiences with Christian fundamentalists is not inconsistent with the sightings because

This would only stretch dates into the mid 1980s but it would seem that the phenomenon had ceased since since at least the late 1980s but if it was the Lily white boys are they still active or has the cult disbanded at least on Mery side perhaps it simply withered on the

Vine as its members grew old and died and their children or other potential members turn their backs on its continuance I Google researched as much as I can about the Lily white boys and other than references to Green Grow the Rizo Harry cookson’s 1960 play of this

Name and story of this title by William Maxwell I have not been able to find anything wholly independent of Tom San’s writings I asked Dr David Clark of forun times in Sheffield how University M if he was aware of the cult through his folklore Network and Steve Jones again

Through his Pagan contacts but both do a blank perhaps the Lily white boys are a literary device created by Tom slamman to provide a backstory to actual local events or stories that he has picked up on after all I am unlikely to be the only person that Witnesses have spoken

To about this phenomenon unfortunately Tom hasn’t got back to me nevertheless there seems to be the distinct possibility that some form of sect was involved and maybe in the early 1980s its members changed Tac and followed an entryism route into the local christian fundamentalist group for whatever reason

And were the secretive Inner Circle that Mark comment commented upon such a possible link would be all pure speculation however it is safe to say that it is highly unlikely that the Spanish Brotherhood would travel to merys side to practice their observances and reenactments in the middle of a

Farmers field in the middle of the night in the middle of winter those of you who know me will know that I sometimes experience subtle strange synchronicities with fortan times so after chatting with David Su Fortune times editor about publishing my a Tre specters article I opened up my newly

Arrived issue of Fortune times to see reference to a 5G Mast being set a blaze at angry near the m53 57 Motorway naturally I checked out exactly where the 5G MK was situated and found that it was on the site of the old chapel Cottages which is right on the opposite

Side of Spencer’s lane from the field where the spects seen brandishing their burning torches so maybe it wasn’t local vandals that set the master light responding to Corona virus conspiracy theories maybe the specters had made a belated comeback and torched it after all they carry the necessary Tools H now

Following the publication of the article in for times some some people wrote in with their own speculations and thoughts about it and I’d just like to spend a couple of minutes highlighting what these uh thoughts and suggestions were of course one was Ryan sherlo who is is really good he’s been at Weir

We and North himself and a great guy to know what what he highlighted having been involved um with uh the military in he’s he’s a civilian but I think with the civil service or whatever been involved with the military at times and what what struck him was that uh people who are

You know on the bases often get totally bored un likee to do pranks and so on and so forth um and looking at the dates he’s wondering whether the fact that there was a a big us AF base at Birchwood which is just down the road whether some of them decided to

Dress up and uh do weird things like this so uh yeah you can’t dismiss that idea and possibly you had some Clan penetration in the US military but you know it’s uh yeah it’s one idea which you know I I can’t dismiss but you know with any

Phenomen like this so much of it is speculation and you know and fun to think about Steve Jones again got in touch with me he’d been to the aisle of man looking for Jeff the talking yeah and uh with Richard Freeman and wild had been over there they visited

The mans Museum in the folklore section he spotted a small photograph and paragraph which talked about the white boys which was comp as I say the photo was of a costume and uh a black and white um outfit um but when you analyzed it whil it did look a bit

KKK type it didn’t have the pointed hood and it was also more linked to muming and the the the white boys would go around more around it I think he says Christmas time yes so it’s you know something that’s uh it’s an interesting connection though from that uh and

Finally there was a a a letter to Fortune times from Dean Ballinger all the way in New Zealand and uh he said he wrote in and he said it’s speculation but uh there used to be a group in Ireland called the white boys and the first known Irish political

Secret society the white boys first appeared in tararan Autumn of 7 1761 this was the enclosures act uh permitting local landlords to seize Village common pasture for their own use so in response um they would gather together and go and destroy the ditches and fences erected

By the landlords so they carried on with that sort of thing over the years uh but of course they then passed on the white boy custom of assembling By Night in white garments spread to the American South by way of Irish immigrants and was adopted after the Civil War by the K CLS

Clan so what what Dean hypothesized was Liverpool has always had a a strong link with the Irish and so maybe that there is some way that um that the Lily white boys are derived or descended from uh the white boys uh political group so yeah it’s a interesting

Thought and I welcome these suggestions uh you know absolutely so what are my conclusions well before Tom San’s article my best guess was that the an spectors were a small group of local christian fundamentalists who enjoyed the excitement of dressing up in C cl’s CL type of perel and Performing rituals

With burning torches in the middle of the night perhaps with some political backdrop pointing the finger at the Lily white boys or whatever they might be called has obvious attractions but there are no evidential sources I could find independent of Tom’s writings but of course there is a problem that secret

Sex are by definition ah secret yes therefore assuming that L white boys actually exist or existed it will be virtually impossible to confirm if they were involved short of a member or former member coming forward um and one of the reasons why something may not have happened in recent times you have

To bear in mind that there is a ubiquity of mobile phones these days and if anybody went prancing around a field burning torches dressed in the like the cou CLS clan um people would be straight out Whi the mobile phones out record it and then upload it and uh yeah it’ll be

A bit hard to do that these days um so unless someone who participated in such events or knows someone who did is prepared to make an admission which might simply be something along the lines of it was me and me mates having a laugh I will adopt

A fortune stance and keep an open mind on exactly what lies behind this very peculiar phenomenon H what a strange conundrum rob it is but before we finish I’m going to tell you about a strange event that happened while I was talking about the entry specters this was to do

When I gave a presentation at we weekend North 2022 so I was first on on the Saturday as is my want it means I’ve got it over with and I can relax for the rest of the uh event and relax yeah and then I write up notes

So I can write up a a piece about the event for the fortune times anyway right I I strutted my stuff I gave my presentation um but following it Jane hurried to me and who she was sat on the front row uh she hurried to me and asked

Why I had repeated it from an earlier Weir week at North rather than deliver a new one surprised I explained that it was the very first occasion I had ever given the talk which perturbed her greatly she told me she had seen me do the exact same presentation before even

Down to the jokes and the sides no comment there I needed to make way for the next speaker and so later when I chat when I chatted to her she explained that she sometimes had similar inexplicable episodes but was adamant about having seen me present angry specters in the

Past her daughter who was with her added that when they were outside at the break they had heard someone else say that they had seen me do it before as well and pointed him out I went over to Jerry and asked him about this and he confirmed that he believed he had seen

My talk uh in the past although he described it as more a strong case of dear Vu at the lunchtime I asked if anyone else might have had a similar experience Lo behold Greg caught me on the afternoon and told me of having seen my complete presentation just before

Just like Jan he mentioned it to his colleagues at the time which greatly puzzled them this is all very strange I had never previously delivered my an spector’s talk and yet three people say that I had I asked if they hadd read my article in forun times but they were

Clear it had no influence did some sort of time slip take place or has the covid-19 pandemic affected some people’s memories in an unknown way it is certainly some somewhat unique for something so fortunate to take place at a forun event so I can’t explain that it it was

Totally Lally weird but the the people were all adamant um so there you go that that bit reminds me of an incident happened to me many years ago when I say many years ago Rob it’s probably about 20 25 years ago and I went to meet friends who I used when

When you were 13 yes when I was a young young young whipper snapper yes and uh I’d often go sort of once a month down to London because I’d got a few friends who’d kind of DeCamp from Sheffield down there so I used to go down pretty regularly and we arranged to

Meet up for for afternoon drinks one Saturday and a couple of friends were coming over one of them is a a football journalist who works for the guardian these days John Bruin and and uh and he came along with a friend and we were all sat there chatting and we we both were

Absolutely adamant that we knew each other but neither of us could remember remember how we’d met how we knew each other and where this feeling came from but it was both of us and we just couldn’t get us heads around the fact we you know we got on like a house on fire

And we couldn’t comprehend how we both had this feeling of familiarity despite the fact that that was clearly the first time we’d ever met each other in a previous life that somebody would say yes yeah cuz weren even from the same city he he didn’t go to university in

Sheffield I didn’t knock about where he grew up up so it was it was very odd but we we both felt like we knew each other yeah yeah so it’s strange I mean have you had that before Rob because obviously it’s a very specific case with

Lots of nuance to it were you sort of surprised even with the weirdness that you often investigate uh yeah I was pretty flabbergasted by it I mean I I don’t have strange things happen to me uh if I could describe it like that um

And yeah I I I I can’t explain it I mean the the woman concerned she was what probably in the 50s you know very down to earth and she she was greatly perturbed greatly perturbed by it so it’s not the sort of thing that you’d

Make up no and uh so I was extremely sympathetic Anthony peak’s book cheating the Fairman have you read it no I’ve heard of it but I’ve never had the chance to read it is very good and Tony and I got talking and I did the

Like a a video podcast for him but we found out that for many many years we lived about half a mile away from each other you know me here in spittle and him in spittle as well just on another part of the estate and uh we never knew

Each other we we reckon we could have had a lot of you know stuff to talk about in the three stag um but um he lives down Sussex way now I think yeah um he’s a really good guy I mean maybe if you maybe you should interview him but it’s cheating the

Fairy man um where he analyzes a lot of you know published proven scientific stuff uh to to paraphrase it if I’m understanding correctly he reckons that what we do is we live the same life over and over and over ah and uh but what happens is that each time you possibly

Do something that changes it so to possibly improve it h so I think in the one bit he talks about he remember like driving on the motorway I think the m62 and then he he thinks about something then the next thing he realizes is that the L shed its load immediately in front

Of him and he swerved something came to mind and he swerved and survived um and so he like kind of Wonders whether in maybe a previous life he hadn’t survived but so I it’s a really really good book I recommend it but it’s as if yes we live

Forever because we keep repeating the same life which I’m not sure if that’s a good thing or not but you know uh it’s it’s an interesting hypothesis and he argues very well so maybe uh you know if you if you take the stance in his book

Then these people have seen me do it before in their previous life you know that’s another way to describe it but you nothing going on about yeah absolutely yeah I suppose as well going back to to what’s been going on with with these specters as well I I find

That the the sort of idea that it could be K cl’s Clan turning up quite odd because they’re not or or never really have been well established here I know in my personal experience Rob the only kind of indication I’ve ever been aware

Of is that they they sort of had a had a bit of a a to-do in Birmingham in the late mid to late 60s where there was sex set up and I know they obviously had some associations with the BMP in the sort of late ughs early early you know

About 15 years ago but other than that they’ve never really been able to establish a foothold now as you refer to though they’re not really the kind of organization that would sort of make themselves very well known because of the connotations and their history is

This is this sort of one of those cases that is that is organic Robin is you’re still looking for if if anybody else has seen something similar as always you’re kind of looking out for for more sort of meat for the bones of this particular story I think that it’s run its course

To be to be blunt because the most recent I think I said was in the 1980s yeah um and it’s very sporadic I mean it could be that somebody um reads my article um or or My call in the newspaper and goes oh wow yes I remember

That you know my dad told me about it or something like that but um I didn’t have many witnesses come forward I me I had enough yeah yeah but I can’t see you know many new ones coming up um but you know that’s just the nature of uh you

Know sort of this sort of research yeah it doesn’t worry me uh of course there was enough meat for you know the for the article for the presentations and I I think it’s a very very intriguing um story yeah because you can’t pin it down to me clearly it’s not

To do with with like Road goost and that you can go oh right okay uh these things happen and and people um you know see these things um but this to me was clearly um you know humans dressed up yeah and uh beg the question of why

Uh but I say unless somebody fesses up and says it was me um I think that’s it really yeah yeah well there’s nothing Stranger than than people sometimes who Who Come Together As Folk as they say indeed indeed and I know obviously you you look at these kind of things and and

Obviously some of the ingredients that you’ve mentioned about the desecration of graveyards and and thing churchs and things and obviously there was a lot of things like that going on in the 60s and’ 70s yeah kind of ties up with what was going on down at Highgate Cemetery

With uh the Reverend Jean Manchester and the ilk and all those kinds of things and people claiming that vampire all kinds of strange things so it wouldn’t surprise me you often occur I mean I remember as a kid in the 80s there was a there was a Spate of of

Uh vandalism cases going on in graveyards and things being desecrated and a lot of people just kind of pushed it to one side as just bored kids Rob which is often sometime you know board kids can often sometimes create a 4y and mystery all of their own but it is just

Peculiar isn’t it because like you say this area is nondescript there’s no real religious history to it there’s nothing that would sort of symbolize this as a particularly special place and yet we’ve got this very odd series of witness accounts of of very unusual activity going on yeah I mean odd is the

Word it’s just so it’s that many ways out of all the research that I’ve done this one just like stands out as a bit of an outlier and um yeah it’s good for for that you know uh rather than repeating the usual you know the same old stuff just in a different location

But uh yeah it’s uh it it was good fun researching it yeah so is there before I let you go then Rob is there any new cases that you’ve had a few accounts come forward that you’ve kind of gone oh I’ve got got myself another hot spot because we’ve obviously mentioned before

Previously we’ve had strange things in Lincolnshire and scum Thor and the like well I said I got about 180 which includes the spects um but um I I mean I’m currently working on one which is quite local to me um which came out as say just by H stance when I said

To somebody that oh yes I I wrote about you know Road ghosts you know for times oh you know you told about you know um a mother and daughter driving along a particular Road and they see a car coming in the opposite direction headlights and then it turns off in

Front of them and then when they get to that point there is no Road oh uh it’s a long straight road um and this car just disappeared yeah and then a few weeks later I hope we got the right way around um they were driving along same road but

You know further along and suddenly this uh person this thing steps out in front of them into the middle of the road they scream they slam on the brakes they run over him it whatever it is and uh they get out they look on the front of the

Car under the car around the car and there’s nothing so they jump in head off and um they called in at the local Tesco you know beyond the end of the road to get something this was late at night and the uh girl behind the c said oh you

Look like you seen the ghost [Laughter] I so so you get that story and then you think oh okay and then you you put a little thing in the local newspaper whatever the only is is that we put it in um cheser live with friendly journalist and the next thing you know

You get into stories of uh BLS on motorbikes seeing road goes in South Africa yeah the classic story yes well all and one where there’s a an admiralty type building in Cape Town where three officers um came across uh some ghosts now the the way that comes about

And this is the Serendipity of it all is that I I I put it into chesher live but it’s part of the reach group and they they cover MSM and they cover the mirror and so they put so they copy it put it on their websites and the websites are

Across the world yeah so suddenly get I’ve got stories from down in Devon where there is a very strange uh Valley which uh Witnesses refer to as spooky Hollow and there’s some pretty scary stuff down there yeah but I’ve thing is I’ve written um these these article oh these stories up as articles for 14 times and sometimes for the uh the sorry for the ghost Club journal and um a lot of them are sitting waiting to be

Published yes so um I mean you know D David uh s he’s super um but you know he he’s got what he calls the Gandy pile which you know all all these uh articles CU I you I’m retired now and uh I can spend time when I pick up the story I

Can I can run with it and then I write it up and and of course what do I do it I submit it to 14 times and D probably goes oh no not another one you know I mean bu can’t I mean I was fortunate with the um the Lincoln

Series which started with ruskington horror that ended up just by look Not By Design there’s been nine articles yeah but 14 times can’t much as I might like it 14 times can’t have oh and who and this month is the next in Rob gandy’s uh many articles oh you know you know he’s

Got a spread it out and sometimes when you got the witnesses who give you the stories then you know you have to say well it might be next year I mean I’ve been chased by one or two witnesses what’s happened I’m thinking oh my God it’s been you know this best part of

Three years or four years yeah um and it’s not been published yet but yes beyond my control and I think 4 times is a fantastic magazine and um you know I just like to support it by writing articles that I hope people like absolutely well it’s it’s quite for you

Mention that I was I was sorting my collection out last night just double checking everything Rob and seeing which issues I need to to do and it’s unfortunately I’m now entering the phase of it’s the really old expensive ones I need so what’s that for the 14 times so

What are you doing you’re trying to go complete set I am yeah I’ve got uh my my collection starts at 61 well you well you know you can get the like the compendium books yes are you including those when you try to get

Some of no no I’m I’m I’m a I’m a geek Rob so I want a complete collection so I’m you know I’m very I’m very I think pushing you I go back I’ve got a Originals going back to I think ft30 yeah yeah I my first my first one I

Think was ft 34 something like that yeah and I got some of the previous ones but I think before ft30 I I rely on the uh the um compendium books that they’ve done on that when it was the news wasn’t it then the news I can’t remember exactly which

Issue it switched to being for in times it was originally the news the first ones yeah yeah yeah yeah I’ve already I’ve already seen the ey watching price of some of the issues 460 so I’ll wait for that lot you win I think Rob oh well

I can sell you a few for a few I’ll bear that in mind my friend so how many months do that mean So for anybody that’s got an experience of a of a strange occurrence on on one of Britain’s roads or even from further Beyond Rob how can they

Supply you with their information and get in touch with you sir uh right well my email address is because I’ve got ntl World which is old and I’ve had problems with I’ve opened up some Gmail accounts and there’s one that I am using or trying to use Rob Gandy

PHH gmail.com all one word Rob Gandy PHH the pH stands for fan I will put a link to that Rob for you in the in the show note so if anybody wants that so um I just want to say thank you very much thanks for joining me thanks for telling

Us about this very strange case and a couple of odd things around this as well and um let’s hope it’s not 3 years till the next time we have a chat about something strange lurking no absolutely um I if you got all those 4 in times

Then you then you can look at my old articles Rob it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show thank you again for your time and uh I look forward to our next conversation okay take care bye Yeah Yeah