The Center for Strategic and International Studies is proud to host Luca de Angelis, Director General for Emerging Technologies at the Ministry of Enterprises and Made in Italy, for a fireside chat on AI & technology policy in the year Italy is hosting the G7 Presidency. Mr. de Angelis will be joined in this online-only event by Gregory C. Allen, Director of CSIS’ Wadhwani Center for AI & Advanced Technologies. This recording will premiere on February 15, from 10:00-10:45 AM ET.
Italy, this year’s G7 president, has indicated emerging technologies as one of its major priorities for 2024, continuing on the work set out by Japan’s 2023 presidency. Mr. de Angelis will outline Italy’s role in global AI and technology policy and offer insight into Italy’s vision for this year’s G7, including the March Digital and Industry Ministerial meeting. Mr. de Angelis will also discuss Italy’s broader technology policy landscape and objectives for key areas such as AI, semiconductors, and quantum.
This event is made possible through general support to CSIS.
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Good afternoon I’m Gregory Allen the director of the wadwani center for AI and Advanced Technologies here at csis today we’ve got a terrific event with Luca deangelus who’s the director general for emerging technology at the ministry of Enterprises and maid in Italy of the Italian government Luca to
Angelus thank you so much for being here at csis hi Greg thank you so much for having me so we’re going to be talking today about technology policy in Italy and also during Italy’s presidency Italy is the president of the 2024 G year so before we get to that main topic
I wanted to get a bit of context about your organization and where it fits in the Italian government uh for those in our audience who might not be familiar with the ministry of Enterprises in made Italy what role does it play in the Italian system so thank you great for
The question um the ministry of Enterprises is basically um what many other countries call the ministry of business the ministry of industry and so on and so forth it basically deals with uh all things business be that regulation be that incentives be that um just coordination overall so that’s what
It does great and then within your ministry your office was only just recently established so what inspired the government to create it and what problem was it created to solve well so uh the idea of creating a dedicated unit to emerging technology has been brewing in the government for some time uh
Mostly because when you don’t have a dedicated unit uh emerging techn ologies may be the second the third the fourth the fifth the 14th priority not because of Any intentionality in it but just because um the way things work in government and so the idea has been to
Create a dedicated unit uh within the ministry of Enterprises the facto having a more traditional industrial policy unit that focuses on what the traditional Industries would want to do and then a specifically dedicated unit on emerging technologies that has the duty to do industrial policies ranging anything from chips to AI Quantum to
Biotech uh new energies to raw materials and Advanced Materials um but before before we I finish just one I think thing of note is important here it will not just work on the next big thing but in actually making sure the next being things emerge in Italy as a result of
This unit otherwise you’re always playing kop basically that’s great so not just a what’s big now but what’s on the horizon and what does Italy need to do correct that’s great to make systems emerge and you’re the first head of this new office is that right that is correct
Oh that’s very exciting for you so we’ll talk a little bit more about what your office is up to in Italy in a moment but first let’s talk about the G7 so this is a big year Italy is hosting as president and prime minister Maloney has said that
AI is one of her top priorities for the G7 so there’s ‘s many conversations going on at various International organizations the oecd the un uh the AI safety Summit in the UK just to name a few but why is the work of the G7 in particular important this year well I
Think the work of the G7 is important because uh of two reasons one it continues on an excellent work done by Japan in the previous presidency uh when it comes to a governance and that work should be built upon and and it’s something that we are very thankful to
The Japanese presidency for and we do think we shouldn’t have that Legacy go to waste but work with them to continue uh working on this topic and secondly because AI is very Central it is very Central in two ways again uh one because we understand even more vividly I think
We’re all becoming aware of the risks Associated to AI in a very Vivid way uh we’re getting the first deployments the first real understanding of how it affects the new cycle and so on and so forth so it’s becoming very and that has a real policy impact the second though
Is that a mounting conversation equally uh potent I think on the good use of AI and how good it can be for growth and how not to miss what AI May mean for growth itself and so um the reason why we think it’s important to bring it in
The G7 as is continue working on these uh bifurcated approach to AI so both on the one hand the governance approach which the prime minister’s office is leading very well when it comes to the Italian G7 presidency but also the growth part of that and I think that in
Our mind the big item here is understanding how to increase AI dissemination so to make sure that we can remove the barriers for a adoption where it makes sense in a safe way for companies they may otherwise left be left behind or countries they may be otherwise be left behind and for example
Uh take the complexion of the Italian economy which is similar somehow to some German parts parts of German economy or parts of Japanese economy which have a lot ofes or other like smaller companies that wouldn’t have otherwise access to AI not having access to this kind of technology is an impediment towards
Growth and I think this is from where we stand as Italy I think it is very important because um when you miss out on technology uh as we may have done in the ’90s and 95s or 2000s then you have growing divergencies within your own economy and has a real impact on wages
And growth so I think having a conversation there in this nature is really important so you’re focusing on both the the risks of AI that are worth mitigating through regulation or through other mechanisms but then also the opportunities that are worth seizing correct you know for the benefit of the
Economy and society and it sounds like this sort of is is in line with your remit the remit of your office in the ministry right it has both the regulatory function and the promotion function is that correct in in a way yes although I’m I’m I’m a part of the G7
Effort of course but yes so the parts I am responsible for and I’m helping I think part of the uh Mandate of director General is really that to understand how enabling Technologies can really enable growth otherwise we risk of like uh missing out on all these opportunities
He said that’s great and can we talk a little bit about the Machinery of the G7 because I think a lot of folks just see the leaders Summit and the statements that come out of the leader Summit and the famous photo of all the presidents
And prime ministers in a row but this is a whole year the whole calendar worth of events uh in which AI will play an important role so can you just help us a little understand sort of what are the various ministerial meetings uh that will occur uh where AI will play part of
The agenda well um so just to just for everybody’s um like like information of course there is a G7 leaders track is where like the main leaders of the G7 uh discuss and come out with a communicate or an outcome which is shared them among all of them but also most ministers would
Have their own G7 like a defense Ministry a Justice Ministry a culture Ministry science technology ministry under which you have working groups that actually um the action officer level staff officer level exactly stuff of that they bring forward the work and I think AI is one of the priorities of the
G presidency I know we are discussing that I know I think that the leaders will probably discuss that on the outcomes of what we we said but um in general it’s disseminated I think throughout as any other transversal topics that usually g7s have yeah and the the ministerial meetings that you
And your colleagues in the under secretary’s office are going to take place when March okay great so not too distant future not too distant that’s very close so um your office is co-organizing the AI discussion during this this mid-march ministerial and that’s around industry and then the technology and digital
Ministerial meeting uh this is a slight change from how the Japanese approached you know their presidency last year so why did you decide to sort of combine or place side by side the industry ministerial the digital and Technology ministerial thanks for this question because I I think it’s important to I
Don’t think it’s um overstatement to think enough the Japanese presidency for the work they’ve been doing and uh but I don’t believe where we’re diverting that much for what they did we just as the7 usually does it builds upon the results of the previous presidency to build a growing edifice of
Indications policies agreements and so on and so forth so as I said before we’re taking stock of the work that has been done done by the Japanese presidency and together with them growing into um a a larger a larger portfolio also considering the benefits
That a may have on growth on this note I think it’s though it’s important to to know one thing that maybe get bit nerdy but I think it’s important so um D7 has a digital track and has a science and technology track and so on and so forth
And it doesn’t really have a place a labor track labor track Finance track everything talk about that there’s no real industry track no as per se industry track because probably that has been out of fashions in the past few years it hasn’t been discussed that much industrial policy was like a bad word
Ining not that Longo but now we have you know IRA and Zia in the EU we have chip sack on both sides and any other side we really have pack big packages with big industrial impact if Italy has a bill it’s not going to be called the chips
Act is it no it’s not but um these items are discussed everywhere sometimes bought in the G7 and it’s important instead to bring some of the industrial elements to the G7 as well and so uh within the industry uh track obviously the the full agenda I don’t believe has
Been published yet but to the extent that you’re in a position to share publicly uh what can you share about the uh industry ministerial agenda for AI or for for other emerging Technologies well I think the topics that they maybe discussed are are still a continuation in the Japanese presidency of course
There going to be Ai and AI for industry of course you’re going to have connectivity and uh uh you’re going to have uh stuff like Supply chains in the sense of semiconductors I think this is something that we probably discussed that’s great and then uh we’ve been focusing on the
G7 AI agenda but I realize that that’s only one part of your portfolio as the Director general for emerging Technologies at the ministry for Enterprises in made Italy so I want to now move move away from the G7 for a moment and just talk about Italy what is
The current AI landscape of Italy across you know industry Academia and government for for those who have never visited Italy or visited the Italian AI sector what’s it like well so I thank you for ask I don’t think it’s as bad as we think it is to be honest um
And I compared it to cloud in a sense when Cloud was emerging and was starting I think that the EU um didn’t really have um a good way of perceiving what was happening and so there is a growing Divergence in that market as as we all
Know when it comes to the ey instead it’s a bit different so so we are there so so we understand what’s going on uh we understand by and large the policies that need to Happ and I think there is an ecosystem um we have very good researchers we have very good talent yes
I was uh in Rome a couple weeks ago and had the opportunity to meet with folks across various Italian universities companies the Italian Institute of Technology and it’s it’s very clear there is worldclass AI research taking place in exactly we have worldclass Computing capacity meaning the sixth
Largest H HBC in the world is in Italy for for those who don’t know HBC is high performance Computing there we go these like super computers super computer and it’s in the top three for AI purposes so you know you have the people you have the compu capacity and then you’re also
Going to have many data sets meaning European Union is ripe of data sets uh we are working and the European commission is working in creating common data spaces so they make it sure that there’s a commonality among data that can be used and given the background that we have in AI some interesting
Companies are emerging like many people are saying saying companies are emerging and of course there’s a lot of wide variety of companies within it but actually some really interesting companies are emerging and I don’t think that um we’re missing on that I think we
Are not in the top League of the race as the US for example but I don’t think we’re out in terms of the resources that Italy you know does bring to bear whether that’s Top Flight researchers or you mentioned uh this really impressive high performance Computing facility you
Know how does that connect to Industry are there like noteworthy users of the high performance Computing capacity that you’re in a position to talk about or uh I’m in a position to talk about no users of high performance capacity to the extent is not communicated by them but
We we know that many European models are being trained there many of the best AI models in Europe are taking correct correct so not just Italians but Europe wide um and so the policies that we are following and there was a recent communication but the European commission I think on January 26th that
Launches this concept of AI factories so there will be funding to expand uh supercomputer capacity further and to um align it to the needs of the a industry to make sure you have even more Computing capacity for training models and that’s even more towards the industry so that’s something we’re going
To be following on so this is this is part of uh eu-wide industrial policy correct and is it is it fair to say that Italy is already slated to be a beneficiary are or you think they will be competitive to no they’re competitive bits yeah that’s great the way in which
They work is the EU puts 50% of the money and you have to put the 50% so there’s a matching uh correct excellent excellent so um Italy has an AI strategic program or a national AI strategy uh passed it a few days not a few days a few years ago um and I
Believe it’s currently in the progress of uh process of being updated so can you sort of elaborate uh a minute what was the approach taken in the the prior strategy and then to the extent that you’re in a position to discuss you know what should we be on the lookout for in
Terms of the new strategy so the the strategy dates back to 2021 so uh actually end of 2021 was November or December and incidentally I was coordinating that that you were instrumentally involved in the strategy in the prior addition to that yes um the strategy was I think if I can call it
This way one of the first steps we took into strategizing about Ai and it was really about taking stock and it was really about trying to drive the talent portion of it so there was a huge pent on talent and research in that strategy which we think is largely has been
Followed thanks to the funds given by the recoveries resilience facility I.E the EU money that was given to countries after during the crisis dur the year exactly now um but a lot has changed since then um so what we’re the world in which we’re moving in to even following
The AI act at the U level following this communication the European commission about AI factories is trying to start shifting that towards Innovation and Industry so a strategy is there and is under review but also would like to point out and this has been publicly said already that we are working at the
Piece of legislation on emerging Technologies uh as one of those pieces of legislations connected to the budget law every year the budget law has piece of legislation connected to it that is going to focus on emerging Technologies in this fashion in this way like trying to promote more Innovation industry in
What we deem are critical Technologies such as AI That’s great so we were talking just a moment ago about the European Union industrial policy uh but the European Union is also intimately involved in the regulatory side of the AI equation so the EU AI act has for all intents and purposes already passed
They’re just waiting to translate it into all the member countries and then pass the various translated versions of the EU AI Act so how do you think the implementation of this new AI act will affect Italy’s AI industry and what are the sort of big unanswered questions in
Your mind um so the a the a Act is an ambitious piece of legislation and it’s a good one because uh it tries to set boundaries uh for AI deployment whilst trying to make sure that we have an internal market for AI so making sure
That if AI is done in France or Germany or Poland can be transported otherwise you would create a very fragmented Market from the get-go um this is one of the criticisms of gdpr that the authors of the AI act had sort of cited is they’re trying to
Make a common market but it’s not actually enough of a common market the fragmentation is still a barrier to Industrial adoption it’s always always staff in the EU but I think the the ACT clearly goes in the right direction of course the the the big problem now is that we need
To implement it um and the implementation is an Uncharted uh territory for an Uncharted technology so I I sympathize with EU legis later because they’re trying to do something that nobody’s ever done before and so there will be a moment in which implementing this may result in some
Confusion some delay some discussions I think it’s normal I think we should expect that because the the material is really really tough but I think the interesting bit is that the works begin now begins now when the I AI is beginning as well so by the time the EU
Will have figured out how to make sure that AI can be well regulated whilst making sure AI deployment is also ensured I think we’ll be in a very good position competitively I.E we may be um a bit slower at the beginning from competition because people don’t really
Understand what’s going on but once we unlock that then of course we’re going to have like a very clear Level Playing Field which can make us actually competitive Visa other places where this may not have been done and you actually face the risk and see the risks now of
Course the job is on all of us bureaucrats to make sure that in the implementation we uphold the act and we make it as smooth as possible I think we should be all very careful to do that but I think it’s a good challenge to have and then your ministry is it sort
Of clear what role it has in implementing the eua act because I know that there are some aspects of the eui act that are handled at the commission level for example Foundation models the sort of large language models exemplified by chat GPT or Mistral um those are going to be regulated
Specifically by the European commission AI office but then the member countries also have regulatory responsibilities for so-called high-risk AI systems is it sort of clear what role your ministry will have in that uh equation no now every member state will have to uh nominate these U National authorities
And I think everybody uh every country is in the process of really understanding the regulation and making sure they make smart choices about who the regulatory bodies will be because obviously you have a notifying Authority and author which to which you have to notify whether you high a risk or not
And how to deal with that and then of course you have a market Authority as well and so uh making sure they’re in the right places I think is something that every member state is thinking about now that’s great so uh we’ve been focusing mostly on AI but that’s only
One of the technologies that fall under your portfolio so now let’s shift to semiconductors and Quantum Computing uh beginning with semiconductors what is the current state of the Italian semiconductor industry what role does it play in Global Supply chains both as a supplier and as a customer I think the Italian
Semiconductor ecosystem is our best kept secret in a way uh no but jokes aside I think um I’m always surprised by um when I discuss semiconductors with the um other partners uh how little is known about the Italian semiconductor ecosystem not only because we’ve been
There for the last 70 years and with the feat de Feats of like olivetti and F would be part of like the birth of the system uh but we still host the largest manufacturer of semiconductors by Revenue in Europe uh we still have a fully fledged uh Supply ecosystem and we
Do have some competitive strengths such as in analog and power so and in Silicon compounds for example so it’s where basically um what aderes to the industrial um European ecosystem so industrial Automotive iot so that’s where we actually have a competive Ed and in some of these areas they’re
Expected to grow massively uh Power semiconductors in particular because of electric vehicles because of the updates to the grid this is like a pretty good Niche to occupy no it is right now it feels like it’s the only one that the market is pricing whereas everybody is
Being a bit punished because of like a market correction and we’ll see how long that lasts but so far being in in Auto and power and through electrification has been like a good deal so are there any other major semiconductor industry trends that you’re paying attention to other than the rise of power
Semiconductors that you know how will they affect Italy well you know Greg if you if you think about the three big technological Trends in semiconductors I.E uh making chips smaller uh making ships on different materials and increasing performance through the way you package them so I would like
These are the three big trends for performance it is really focusing on one the materials and two uh the way in which you package ships these are in our way the ways in which make sense uh for us to compete and to be uh cost effective while doing so I mean I think
I would add to to what you said is also the design aspect right complex packaging might also include a complex design and is is this another area where Italy has some strength Italy does have a strength in design and is where the government is investing a lot oh
Interesting um it’s the we created a dedicated uh design Foundation which is a unique institution in Europe uh it’s called chipit um as an acronym and the foundation will be um focused solely on making sure that we we collect all the design experience we have in chips we
Put it in one single place and then single place becomes we hope one of the European pivots in research when it comes to design so you’re trying to create this you know genuine Center of Mass center of excellence around design that’s interesting so what are the you
Know in addition to creating this new center what are the major levers of industrial policy that you have available to you as you think about the semiconductor industry of Italy so it’s we we have some policies when it comes to research and development actually the majority of them and then some of them
To incentivize manufacturing as any other country has when it comes to R&D we’re really trying to shift the level of R&D in the country focusing a lot on design through a the foundation but also a dedicated R&D tax credit we instituted last year um which also applies to equipment
We are focusing on Research again on Silicon compounds so new materials through proping a wine banga pilot line together with other European Partners like Sweden or Poland um and then we of course we made use of the European projects of common interest the IPC which is an R&D
Framework uh for the country and of course we have the uh manufacturing incentives and this program is right now just short of 7 billion EUR so real money not not small it’s almost as big as the funds invested in automotive which now you said 7 billion EUR over how many
Years a decade let’s say yeah okay more or less depending on the program like I’m shifting programs but like yes by large a decade a decade that’s great um okay we’ve we’ve neglected an area that I know that you care a lot about which is uh Quantum technology so what is
Italy uh you know currently playing a role as in the Quantum Technology field and then what are you hoping to accomplish so as you well know Quantum is a lot different from what we discussing AI much more early stage much more early stage so the country had been
Investing in Quantum thanks to the RF money so the covid pandemic fund we discussed earlier um but a lot on the research side so trying to make sure that we study and research on all the four main technologies that Quantum now has um right now we are we we have to be
Basically start accompanying that towards the industry so the idea is technology isn’t there yet but use cases can be in a way sort of start to be designed and we have we won’t understand how to shift the technology from the pure research to the industry how long
Will take how much that will take and what actual policies that will take and that reasoning is part of that piece of legislation mer technology that we’re discussing I would discuss to you about before so this is basically the direction we’re taking so you’re office is quite young but you’ve got a very
Full plate yes um we’re really delighted that you decided to to take time to come to Washington DC and to spend time with us here at csis so Luca to Angeles thank you so much no thank you great for having us yeah thank you so much thank
You thanks uh and this concludes our event and thank you so much for watching that was great thank you thank you and now you got to do it again yes