Leeds City Council – Corporate Governance and Audit Committee – 12 February 2024

Good morning everyone sorry for the delayed start um first of all welcome to the corporate governance and auditing committee and my name is councelor Mahalia France May and I’ll be chairing today’s meeting today’s meeting is being live streamed on the lead city council website so the public can observe the

Meeting without needing to be present I’m now going to invite members and officers to introduce introduce themselves and please remember to turn off your microphones um once once you’ve introduce yourself thank you very much hello I’m Kate Sadler and I’m the lead officer for this meeting morning Jonathan Foster I am

Senior head of internal audit corporate governance and insurance morning everyone councelor Jane dson Chapel Allon Ward uh good morning everyone Council Paul Ray hunel and Riverside Ward good morning uh councelor go almus from beon hallig Bo thank you good morning Tim rollet from the council’s intelligence and policy team morning Rebecca Roberts legal

Officer Mariana pexton director of stress chain resources Julia braner internal audit manager Brenda mlin senior audit manager good morning Ryan Glennon senior audit manager morning Angela Lok head of Finance internal audit morning all Adin London head of information management and governance good morning Mary hasnip head of Finance in corporate financial

Management morning Andrew Byam interim Chief digital information officer morning uh Victoria Bradshaw Chief Financial Officer morning everyone uh Jason tutin head of 100% the Jil leads morning chair morning members Gareth Mills the engagement lead from Grant thornson the external Auditors warning per Grant paon external auditor good morning Linda wild independent

Member good morning Conrad harbrook representing Rothwell Matthew Robinson Council for the herwood ward good morning everyone Debbie Alm and I’m the clerk to the committee thank you thank you very much we’re just going to move straight on to item agenda one which is the um I’ll go straight to you

Debbie thank you chair under agenda item one we have no appeals against refusal of inspection of documents agenda item two there’s no exempt information agenda item three there’s no formal late items but there has been some supplementary information in relation to item 12 and could I just ask as of all members receive

This thank you under agenda item four could I ask members to declare any interests Council B thank you I’m not 100% sure it’s necessary but just for completion um 100% digital have supported uh out together which is an organization I’m a trustee for thank you yeah I work for Tech UK

Trade Association for the tech sector so in line with the same item just to Clare an interest thank you for those um under agenda item five apologies have been received from councelor hesslewood and councelor F there’s no substitutes today thank you very much so we’re just

Going to go into um item six and seven and are the minutes correct from the meeting that was held on the 27th of November I know there was some questions outstanding questions from that meeting but I believe all the responses has been been received for that so are there any

Um any matters arising from the minutes um just to make the committee aware that the information requested in relation to corporate Performance Management will be provided within the 2324 update report so members will receive that at um El lat committee and the various requests that were made um

In relation to the procurement Assurance report um have now been supplied to members in a response that was sent out on the 8th of Feb so that was last Thursday so all members should have received that response okay thank you very much we’re just going to go on to item agenda eight

Which is the update for information and digital service governance Andrew morning just can you bear with me for two minutes I’m just sorting out connecting into the zoom meeting apologies I’m going to download the uh app as I’m talking can I talk to the slides is that okay thank you so I’ve

Sent a present the uh report through and I’ve sent you some slides through um which I will now go through um have members got their slides present front them just bear with us second we’re going to see if we can get you to share your screen thank you

Um what we’re going to do we’re just going to come back to item agenda eight and we’re just going to go straight into um item nine everyone would you like to lead on that from us please thank you sure thanks chair this is the annual information governance Assurance update

Report which includes the annual report of the cot Guardian not wishing to repeat the contents of the report I’d just like to highlight four key points for for members firstly and positively um as was a concern in previous meetings and reports performance in relation to information requests was not where it

Needed to be uh and I’m pleased to say that we are now consistently hitting our current kpi we B accounts need to improve that further but having hit the kpi for the last seven eight months we’re positive we can keep that going so that’s a huge St that’s relation to a number of

Changes we’ve made within the team a number of process changes and how we work with services so it’s a huge thanks to to my team and the services that we we work with in relation to that secondly as the committee was previously made aware internal audit provided us with a recommendation to

Improve the oversight recording and completion of data protection impact assessments there’s no doubt this has been a challenging piece of work um as we set out not only to address the issues that were uh raised but to make something that we could have embedded for the the future so I’m very

Proud to say that after a number of delays admittedly the Microsoft PowerUp will be introducing has concluded its minimal valuable product development phase Tes has been completed and we’re now underway with training staff we’ve got a communication implementation plan that’s been developed and we you see its

First use by the end of this financial year thirdly uh this year we will be working on a formal information assurance framework in order to implement this into 2025 this will follow development working in relation to my final point which is the information Commissioner’s Office data protection

Audit this year the report also presents this the ico’s report in F we wanted to go for fuel transparency and so there’s no reduction whatsoever we wanted to share that with members and members of the public we welcome the viewers of the Ico and appreciate the support they’ve

Given us us accepting that are areas for improvement we’ encouraged that many were known to us and we were already included in our information management govern it program so we’re keen to keep officers and members up to date hence they ask to provide a midyear and end of year update

Report on the action plan and I’ll conclude there for any comments or questions thank you very much are there any questions from any the members yep Linda thank you um yeah your action plan and your timetable for implementing ation it’s great to hear that some of the things that raised are already on

Your radar um that’s good um and I noted I think I noted somewhere in your paper that internal audit is going to C provide a review or it might be in the internal audit paper that says you’re going to include a review of of the position in um in future months um is

Internal audit going to wait until the end of the the action plan or or are you doing some sort of continuous Assurance as you go along that’s my question thank you I’ll answer that question um no we’re intending to work with the service um on the implementation of the

Recommendations we’re not going to wait until the end um we have a member of staff on the uh board that’s been set up to oversee implementation so we’ll be working alongside them okay councilor bthl thank you you yeah just a just a quick one from me um the training that

It talks about the leveled training um it seems to have started um being reviewed in 2022 and I just wondered how far through making sure everyone had done that mandatory training we are have we had um everyone through have we got the data on how many people we’re

Missing is there any barriers to getting everyone through because obviously it’s a massive Workforce thank you so in relation to the training it’s done every two years and in relation to having been done in September 2022 it was 100% completion rate at that point in time um and it’s built into

Inductions um so when we come to do it in September this year it will be a we continue on until everybody’s done it again okay are there any more followup questions no okay thank you very much just be with me a second I think I’m ready to go so we’ll

See if it works crossed okay you might as well introduce item number eight then oh yes s Hello is my mic working yeah okay sorry yes um are we are the members happy to accept the recommendations that are laid out in the report yeah okay thank you very much going back to um

Item agenda eight yeah I spoke to assume this isn’t working apologies I’ll I’ll I’ll talk to the report okay so this is the IDS um return for this year um which spills on the report that I wrote last year so it talks through uh the various governance

In underdefined and document in terms of uh process we’ve got in place around digital strategies digital priorities and then the various boards that we have there with the offic of roles and responsibilities within the team um in terms of actual governance uh we have a number of um boards particularly the

Digital board which uh members come from across directorates come to to look at pieces of work that we might want to deliver within the services um we then go through uh meetings like the design Authority where we have a set of principles for for how we deliver it so

Cloud first ensuring that secuity is buil into everything we do we then go through uh things like our change Advisory Board and IMG and change delivery groups um so there there’s full detail included in the report on what those boards are and what the oversight is for members and this group in terms

Of clear clearly communicate I’ve got my colleague uh Jason with me around digital inclusion and the work we’ve been doing in that team um and digital learning do you want to pull anything out Jason particularly on that um I would just highlight to members that the 100% digital program reports

Every year excuse me to um infrastructure investment and inclusive growth scrutiny board um our next appearance at that board is April the 3 this year so we are in the process of writing our kind of annual review looking back on the year and priorities and plans for next year um so that will

Also be available to members from the 15th of March I believe is the first draft of that report um priorities for both inclusion and learning um under the 100% digital leads umbrella is the adoption of the technology so Andrew and colleagues will speak about some of the technology that

Is being rolled out and implemented across the council from our perspective our role in that is to work closely with colleagues not just within the integrated digital service but across the organization and more widely across the city to ensure that people have everything they need to adopt those Technologies to improve either their

Lives if we’re talking about citizens and communities or to improve their experience at work to help them work more efficiently and more effectively to deliver the outcomes that the organization is wanting to deliver so our priorities in a sense are the priorities of services and directorates across the council and of people and

Communities across the city and it’s making sure that we align with those so that everybody can make best use of that technology in the way that works best for them thank you Jason um just moving further into the report uh we’re starting to establish directorate digital road maps um with a product road

Map for each product that allows us to plan effectively uh how that will be used across the organization um and we’re starting to have pull together um a master repository of all that information so we can actually properly plan plan use of those products um we also have a product

Portfolio uh within the digital change team um which has 101 managed projects uh products which are in various stages of uh introduction growth maturity Decline and that allows us to plan effectively on on the use of those as a product life cycle um one thing I did

Want to pull out and there’s a lot of detail in the report around the IDS digital schemes so we have three big schemes the essential Services Program so this is the program that invests heavily in our infrastructure to ensure that we’re compliant and secure and we’ve got resilient Services um there is

The digital efficiencies program uh which is looking about improving our digital offer and digital efficiency across the organization and then there’s the corporate sorry the cloud application and compliance program so that’s looking at that migration out of our data centers into Cloud products and moving things to the browser but then

Also in in terms of making sure that we’re secure um just working again through the report uh I then start talking through in terms of the monitoring the work we’ve been doing in the uh service center around creating a dashboard that’s going to be uh used that reports on our performance

Within the service center itself against our kpis and then moved further into the report we’re talking about cyber assurance and security which is crucial for the organization um so each year we have to align to the PSN um certification and we go through some testing where some uh hackers come into

The organization to try and break into systems and that results in a in a a big piece of work that we work through through the year we have just been awarded our PSN certification for the next year um it’s been significantly harder this year because cabinet office have raised the threshold of what’s

Actually captured so instead of the uh this year we we went from 131 things issues to resolve to 264 which we’ve achieved I should add that the um cabinet office have made it very clear that we do need to address an issue we’ve got with access databases which

Need to be off the estate before we go for accreditation next year so working through a program of that now and I’ve been asked to take a paper to CLT on that there’s still 55 access data spaces that are seen as being business critical so we will have to address that

Particular issue I’ve pulled out a few uh points in there within the report around how we tried to improve the service through the year there was some feedback in 2022 about the local election process and uh you know the support IDs G to that so we put a

Different process in place last year and that was very successful so we’re looking to repeat that for this year for the uh election process and then the general election later in the year um there’s also some information there on the deployment of powerups that we now pushing out using uh our Microsoft

Licensing to try and improve services for our colleagues and then finally there’s some information there about the survey of internal control which picks up on some areas in IDs that we need to improve um so I’m working through how we can do that uh particularly around areas like

Um business partners for example where there’s been seen as a bit of a gap there so we’re going to look at what we can do to address that so in conclusion there’s um some opportunities in there for improvement around uh working on some key documentation there’s a number of pieces of work I’m

Working on with uh with risk around a cyber security risk audit and then there’s some internal audits that we’re working through on uh ESP program and on raise privilege okay thank you thank you very much are there any um questions from anyone councilor B thank you yeah I’ve got a couple if

That’s okay um in the section around contract reviews um I just wondered if these go through the same social value Hoops as physical procurement um also on page 45 it talks about the issues in children’s and families but it looks from the table like it’s um communities housing and

Environment um that is the one with the scores that are being labeled as children and families so I just wonder um whether that’s a typo issue or whether it’s a um well whether the type is in the table or the typos in the uh written and whether or not we therefore are working

With the right department on it um on page 36 it talks about using capital for Staffing and I just wondered why that was a thing um the road map uh work um the migration from product plan to lean n is it ex oh I just thought it was Roman numerals

Okay uh is it a manual migration and how like how long is that likely to take um and then I was disappointed on the governance pages that there was no um bullet on ensuring I EDI requirements there doesn’t seem to be an oversight of governance around how we use digital

Which I know we do do to meet IDI uh EDI requirements and then finally on the um Cyber attack stuff um it gave some clear score boundaries but not what our score was um and I know you just said it moved up to 164 recommendations but on that

Low medium high thing is that which one do we fall into currently thank you trying to keep track of all the questions you asked there um we do track EDI so apologies if that’s not been pulled out within the report I shall look to uh address that in the in the

Report next year um you asked about capital for Staffing so if if we’re running a big project and we want needed to bring some that I think we can use that approach to pay for those staff on delivering those projects we’ve now got an augmentation frame um where we bringing additional Staffing through

That route to speed up delivery so that that’s an example where we would be charging project Capital against bringing people in so we do that approach um if there’s a typo in there and I’ve referenced the wrong service apologies I’ll go look at that and check

It out I think it was children’s and families so if it’s if it doesn’t read that way then that’s that’s my bad so apologies for that one I think there was two other questions but I can’t recall quite what they were um the contract review procurement

But as I was saying it you were nodding so I think it does go through the social value stuff um and then the migration of the road map work so so this report was was written and there’s been some changes just around that particular point because we’re

Going to take a fresh look at whether we go with that lean ex um the main reason for saying that is that company’s being bought by another company that’s uh renowned for their very expensive licensing so I’ll have to address that look at that again uh to ensure that it

Gives us what we need and represents value for money okay thank you very much um councelor dson may not even be you so probably asking the wrong person but I’m sure you can uh can direct me into the right place I’ve got three questions really

And and one is the roll out of Wi-Fi into our buildings um I was reminded of that there were some young men hanging around outside one of our buildings very nice and we had a little chat and they were there wanting to use our free Wi-Fi um

And I think that was really good and may maybe we ought to have it in a building that’s open um but that’s something else but yeah so the roll out of free Wi-Fi in our buildings if you could just talk about that a little bit we were working

At one time about um the roll out of Wi-Fi um in in some of our deprived areas using um methods that actually were on lamp posts and things so that it was more widely available I think we were working at one time with um an organization

Based in leads on that and I’m wondering if you know how that’s going um and the third one was the council’s use of AI if you could just talk about that a minute please um just very quickly on the more buildings with Wi-Fi for communities particularly um the council has

Received I want to say nine million pounds from UK shared Prosperity fund over a three-year program um and that’s being spent on a range of different issues but part of that is 100% digital lead has some money and our colleagues in the localities and communities team has some

Money and we are combining our efforts so that we can put free Wi-Fi for communities into more community centers essentially so we have a list our colleagues in the communities and localities team have come up with a list of community centers in priority wards that is just being sense checked in

Terms of The Wider Financial challenge to make sure that we not connecting buildings that are potentially going to close in the next 6 to 12 months so making sure that there is longevity and this this wi-fi is going to build into buildings that are staying open for a

Minimum of 18 months to two years that list currently I think stands at around 13 community centers and so in the integrated digital service will put in that connectivity the 100% digital leads team will then work with the community organizations and others who use those buildings to make sure that the

Equipment is fit for purpose so it’s not just Wi-Fi with no equipment to use the Wi-Fi um but that the Wi-Fi is supplemented by equipment and then by a program of digital inclusion digital skills training and support and so on and so we’re looking to fund an officer

That will be hosted probably by voluntary action leads those conversations are still ongoing and that officer will work across all of those community centers that are getting the free Wi-Fi to support people and communities to use the equipment so that list I don’t think has been published

Yet but that is being produced and will go I think to to executive board if not later this month then in time for the next meeting um so definitely work is ongoing to increase free Wi-Fi across particularly our priority neighborhoods and communities thank you Jason um you asked

About use of AI um so we have we are using three we’ve got 300 licenses for Microsoft co-pilot so what co-pilot is is uh AI embedded into Microsoft 365 so into the desktop so it’s embedded into email uh word PowerPoint Excel Etc and and it’s attended to make you more efficient

In in how you operate um working with colleagues like Arin and IG to ensure that we’ve covered those aspects of that um the thing that copilot can do in in teams meetings it can transcribe it can ask questions it can generate meeting notes so what my colleague Steph GL

Who’s leading on that is doing is we’re pulling together some cohorts of Staff across every directorate to see where we can use that to make more more efficient use um I’m aware Barnsley Council of just to purchase licenses for all their back office staff on co-pilot um clearly

Would have to have a business case for us to do something similar here which i’ be speaking to Victoria about because it it’s quite it’s not overly expensive but it is a cost um so it has more cost in but yeah we’ve got we’ve got a trial

Underway at the moment on that one CAD daon if I could just come back um is is um if if anybody tries in our customer service our front door uh it can often take quite some time to uh to get a response is it anticipated that AI will

Actually relieve some of that pressure um number one number two is um once this report is released it would be nice if this board could see the uh the 13 was it 13 you said that uh uh centers and so on where they are and what the offer is

So we can actually look at at that and just one comment on that H it’s really good I used to represent a deprived neighborhood but the residents have worked really hard with the council to actually pull us out of that particular category um but we’re only just above

That and also in some better off areas there are digital what they call do they call them digital deserts um where there’s very little free access for those residents who actually need it in those Pockets um so are we anticipating going forward that we’ll actually address some uh some bigger issues

Across the city thank you just on your point about the front door so um in the contact center we’re looking to while we are deploying a new contact center solution um start the new Financial year which is Genesis uh which within that there is AI there are chat

Bots and we are absolutely looking to try and improve that uh that front door into into the council so that will be coming in in in in April I think also if there’s any um background information some of it may be left for scrutiny if not we can circulate those notes um afterwards

Thank you chair and just just finally one comment as opposed to anything um I’m I’ve an age now where I get eternally and extremely disappointed by Ai and the frustration of it not quite understanding the way I speak and the way I put things down is there a method

Of people actually complaining so that the AI can learn um you know the the your yorshire accent and the Yorkshire way and how we put things and you know and our and our communities how how different people and different different diverse communities actually do speak we did actually ask for a

Yorkshire dialect in that product when we went to Market where they said there wasn’t one available um but it should learn as it goes along in terms of the question you’re asking there um I say it’s coming in April so we we’ll see what see how that goes in

Terms of how it’s uh how people respond to it when we when we deploy it okay thank you very much councelor Robinson thanks chair um on the AI point I think it’s incredibly interesting the applicability for the council I was only speaking with somebody was an officer at

Another Authority the other day about a program that was being used where non- English speakers could go to a GPS and in real time it was doing translation while at the same time AI was looking up dag nois to speed up for for the GP and other practitioners what could be done

Naturally you have to have to have you have to have the human at the center of that though because if AI is incorrect that could be life-threatening not life-saving so I think there’s huge opportunities for the council but we need to be mindful of that as we go

Through just aou quick questions if that’s okay chair for the officers um the first one on Cyber literacy um what essentially now the council is continually under threat of Cyber attack what are we doing to make sure that cyber literacy isn’t just on these forms but actually is the responsibility of

Every officer across leads and every one of our suppliers as well to councel ab’s point on procurement because cyber attacks will look for the easy route through to attack us and it’s great how making sure we’ve got a steel front door but if we’ve left you know the door

Unlocker at the back then actually that potentially makes us very very vulnerable thank you um yeah I completely agree the the the weakest link is Staff it’s not it’s not the technology uh we are looking u in the coming months to do some uh simulated fishing attacks um clearly we’re not

Going to communicate with doing that because we don’t want people to be aware of it but we will do that and then follow up with staff where they perhaps have clicked on a a link um so we’ll do that in a supportive way we’re also looking at doing some manual training

Around cyber as well to ensure that everyone is aware of it but it’s it’s got to be a con continuous cycle of communication to get Cyber right is what I would say and on that does that fit into some of your work Jason in terms of 100%

Digital because I’m aware that we’ll be going out there and how do we make sure that Community organizations are aware of that too because I don’t see that reflected in the sorry um yes absolutely um I think it’s also really important which is why it’s part of the integrated digital

Service review that’s been ongoing for a little while that we’ve brought our digital inclusion and digital learning programs together um because our citizens and communities are also reflective and representative of our Workforce and vice versa our Workforce in lots of cases live in our communities obviously um so digital inclusion

Digital learning digital skills and that understanding of how to interact with the digital world safely is absolutely a priority across both our digital inclusion and learning programs for our citizens and communities and our work force and back to the comments around EDI um often times some of some of our

Colleagues and some of our citizens who are most vulnerable are also most likely to fall into those traps um whether it’s adults with learning disabilities whether it’s people who have English as a second language there are a whole range of categories that come under the EDI Banner where we are absolutely doing

More intensive work and targeting that work and we are learning and working with colleagues who have that expertise so whether it’s National organiz organizations like the nspcc or ability net or whether it’s local organizations that have those that deep understanding of those communities we bring our

Expertise but we also need to learn from the organizations who work most closely with those people similarly from a corporate perspective we are linked into all of the um staff networks so the dawn Network and unpaid carers Network and so on and so on so that we’re making sure that those EDI

Considerations are taken at every step of the way and back to aon’s point making sure that that training is updated so that we’re not you know rolling out some e-learning and getting you know all colleagues to do e-learning that’s actually 18 months out of date

And is not keeping up to date with the more advanced cyber attacks that the AI can absolutely generate so AI can be a source of as you’ve said councel Robinson a source of good and a positive benefit for our colleagues and our citizens but is also a way that

People with malicious intent can use AI to make those cyber attacks look more realistic to our colleagues and that link is eminently clickable if you think it’s a genuine one so we just need to be aware from both sides the risks and the benefits but that is why governance is

So important as Andrew said so yeah absolutely on our radar okay final question thank you chair final question then for the officers you mentioned about digital adoption and Leadership is hugely important in what we do if we want to be digital leaders at the council um within the report when we’re talking about

Assurance and and the governance there’s a lot on things that happen internally but to uh to the point made by council’s opposite as well what comes back externally from residents of leads and their interaction how do we capture that because I don’t see that captured here in what gets reported back so if

Somebody said do you know what I think I’ve got a way that I think we can improve the service how do we capture that because we don’t seem to do that in the way the the reports written at the moment and who is responsible for that um within digital leadership at the

Council um so from and this is why again more recently over the last sort of two and a half years or so the 100% digital leads program moved across into the integrated digital service so that we could be closer to colleagues who are creating those products and running those

Services so that that feedback loop is much tighter um um the digital inclusion team works with people and communities and organizations who represent them and support them and serve and we through that digital inclusion team can then feedback into the integrated digital service to colleagues who are building

Those websites and those platforms and introducing tools not just from an organization Council perspective but we work really closely with colleagues in the NHS where the NHS has a digital first agenda and is looking to push GP appointments online and self-management tools and so on and so forth so us being

Able to feedback into colleagues within the organization and across the city what the people in the communities are saying to us and similarly from a digital learning perspective my digital learning team is working with colleagues across the organization to help them use those tools more effectively and they’re

Also getting the feedback so my digital learning team are kind of the eyes and ears if you like of colleagues across the organization who are saying yeah we understand how that works until we get to that point and then it seems to fall over every time we click that thing that

Can then be fed back into colleagues in product management colleagues across IDs who are either building procuring or maintaining those products so that they can feedback to suppliers or to colleagues in the organization who might be building those things in terms of governance and where that’s reported in

A way that’s much more open I think there’s work to do and as Andrew said making some of those dashboards more visible so obviously colleagues and citizens are going into service desk or into the contact center we can make a lot of that much more visible as well through those dashboards but certainly

In terms of the feedback loop almost behind the scenes I guess those are really strong and we’re working to strengthen those as we go thank you very much um Mariana yeah thanks chair thanks Jason just to add into that because obviously um as you know um It won’t always people won’t

Always necessarily think it’s the it that’s the problem um so I think the other way that we do get a lot of feedback but that wouldn’t be the subject of this report is through consultation more broadly um um and you know there was a fairly extensive piece

Of scrutiny work last year on that trying to make sure that we were better at that but say for example something like the tenant survey you know the housing service would get that information and that might well chime with something Jason’s team has picked

Up on or not um so I think it would come from both angles in terms of through the kind of the digital route if you like specifically but more broadly in terms of the user experience as well um and perhaps just if you don’t mind CH just um answer to councelor dowson’s

Questions before the the contact center weit times aren’t as bad now um and again it’s been fairly extensive report through um scrutiny which I’m sure can be shared with this group if it’s helpful and I think on the community buildings I think it’s um Council goon’s board communities housing and

Environment board that are looking at that in particular so just again for completeness so that members are aware where those actions will be taken okay thank you very much thank you very much also for coming back on the EDI uh part of the question as well councelor C

Brook yeah it was just a small point I think um it may have partially been answered there um going back to the Wi-Fi and the installation in community buildings I just implore that um elected members are engaged in terms of deciding what go what what needs to go in and

Where because I know in my own area there are buildings that have Wi-Fi that are probably going to get it upgraded and there other buildings that get heavily used for multitude of purposes that don’t have it at all um so I think just yeah keeping that as a uh a open

Topic would be appreciated really quickly on that and to address councelor Dan’s early point that I didn’t get time to um fully take on board those comments I think oftentimes we’re constrained by the funding and Council dson made the point of well you know if if you’re not

A priority neighborhood if you’re just above a certain bar that may mean that a particular funding stream to connect a particular building you’re not eligible for because that building doesn’t in inverted Commerce fall into the right Ward um but we are working closely with the digital and Tech sector across the

City to leverage funding um back to the comments about social value corporate social responsibility um there was a mentioned earlier about out together which is one of the organizations that been supported by the digital and Tech sector at the moment with funding so when where we’ve got that flexibility as

A team as an organization to work outside of the kind of sometimes more restrictive funding requirements that are placed upon us by something like UK share Prosperity fund were always open out in conversations with members and with Community organizations to allocate that funding and those resources where

They can be best used so yeah just wanted to address both those points thank you very much councelor R yeah two questions um on the Wi-Fi bar actually from a slightly different angle um in terms of usability uh one of my concerns is obviously Technologies move quite quickly we put Wi-Fi and we

Obviously put quite strenuous security safeguards into our system to protect our systems how are we analyzing the balance between open access for residents and security to our system bearing in mind obviously technolog is moving quite quickly new applications new systems and our Wi-Fi has a tendency to block things that actually might be

Very usable to Residents but our security system goes it doesn’t particularly like it so how are we analyzing the balance of that and in terms of our website obviously we have a digital first approach and from a kind of governance perspective and a data perspective how are we analyzing how the

Website is being used are we uh actually checking that actually the applications we’re putting online are being used for example I was looking at our translation page it’s two or three clicks away to be able to translate the website for someone that doesn’t have English as the

First language so if we’re having a digital F appro approach to try and stop people coming into the contact center are we doing the analysis is to make sure that those actual applications are actually being used they’re being used effectively and therefore not indirectly creating contact to our contact centers

Because someone can’t find something because we put it three or four clicks away from being useful to someone so how we analyzing that data so on the the latter question around the website uh we do analyze what’s on there and how it’s used and we do anything that goes onto the website

Has to follow standards in terms of people being able to use it and identify things there um if it’s useful I can I can speak to the team and bring something back here which would show that in terms of use and and what those standards are in terms of clicks you

Point about three clicks to get to something because I think just just from a good point we’re spending obviously quite a lot of money on Core Business transformation and our digital systems and actually so from a a point of view of looking at in terms of actually we

Not from the kind of screwing perspective what it does but actually are we getting value for money is it actually doing what we would like it to do corporately that data is quite important because if we’re spending a lot of money and actually turns out no one’s actually using it because it’s too

Far away to be useful then that actually poses a Financial Risk as well as actually a risk to the council’s approach to digital first so yeah I think that information would be I just wanted to chip on that bit sorry um and just quick quick response

In terms of the Wi-Fi and and the Safety and Security um it is a really difficult balance um and finding the right balance is an ongoing challengeing conversation so at the moment leads free Wi-Fi which is provided by the council in I’m going to get the number wrong 150 plus Council

Buildings um is linked to but is separated from the corporate Network that Council colleagues log into and access kind of secure files and folders and so on um at the moment lery Wi-Fi does not have very verification in terms of proving your age but what that

Follows is that the filtering is set at a certain level so it’s it allows adults to do a certain amount of things but it also has some protection for children vulnerable adults as we mentioned earlier that is an absolute balance we could lock it down and make it so that

You have to verify and you have to prove age and have a certain level of filtering and things and then that makes it so difficult for members of the public to access and log on to that they just go you know what I just won’t bother so it is absolutely fine balance

At the moment I think we feel that we’ve got it right but it is always under review and back to the things that Mariana was talking about earlier making sure that we we are listening to our citizens and communities and that we balance the risk versus the opportunity and the

Benefits thank you very much one last final Point by councelor D and then we’re going to close this agenda right oh sorry and then um and then Linda thank you sorry I know Linda always gets the last point in which and it’s always very good um just just two points really

Sorry chair one one was around funding um you know you’ve got Parish councils you’ve got Chris you’ve got s you’ve got all sorts of other pots of council funding when you’ve got an idea and if if it doesn’t fall into one of these areas think a bit outside the box there

Are other funding pots that are around and and uh you know we can help as counselors so please don’t be a stranger if we can help we will um but the other thing I wanted to say um is I hear I mean I think the whole country has heard

Very good things about 100% digital um you’ve got a very very good reputation we’re here to scrutinize um and that’s our job but I want you I want I just want to let you know how important we think 100% digital is as a council it’s really important

For our residents um and we’ve we’ve mentioned other languages and so on it’s really important we get this right so that every citizen of leads feels valued and important and that this will help them do what they need to do you’ve made it you you’ve slowed change down you’ve

Made it accessible and thank you for that can I just reiterate the thanks for the work that you’re doing there as well and the board isn’t here to scrutinize as well blinda thank you just a very quick one from me I I recognize that things are moving fast in the digital space and

Have been for some time in particular around Ai and cyber risks do does the council feel that its policies and procedures that uh we’re expecting our colleagues to adhere to sufficiently incorporate Ai and cyber risks think I mentioned earlier on that internal audit I’ve looked into the

Cyber risk within the council and we’ve got a work plan that we’re working through this year whilst it doesn’t go specifically into AI it is going to cover off the other aspects of that the the I AI is very new and we’re working through as I mentioned that co-pilot

Piece of work at the minute and we’re thinking through things like um some principles there that we need to communicate to staff key thing there the humans got to be in the you’ve got to check everything you can’t just accept what it’s saying and send it so it’s

It’s very new and perhaps next year when I come back here I will flesh all that out um but you’re right AI is very new and we’ve got to get it right I mean certainly we’ve been having a chat from an IG perspective I to understand why

How the data is used where is it um I’ve been using co-pilot myself for about three months and it is started become invaluable making me very efficient in how I work um but we’ve got to get it right because there are risks there in the wrong

Hands yeah I would agree with that and I think there are there are risks on the other side as well it’s not just about what are we doing the information that comes out of it it’s about what are we doing to govern the information that we’re putting into it as well and I

Think that’s where policy really comes into its own okay thank you very much are we is the world happy to accept the recommendations that’s written in the report y okay thank you very much so we’re going to move on to agenda item 10 um Angela thank you chair this is our

Update report for the period um first of September to the end of December um it’s our standard report so there’s just a few things that I would like bring to your attention um there have been a number of changes to the plan including um as I responded to Linda earlier some

Uh time in the plan to support the service with the Ico um invest audit in terms of preparation for and also um the ongoing support and challenge of the um action plan in addition we’d planned a number of um individual reviews um however we’ve undertaken other recent

Work where we’ve been able to to provide uh enabled us to get the insurances that we need so we’ve done no additional work is required at this stage um the next bit is around recommendation tracking um we’ve currently got 68 open recommendations of which 50 aren’t due yet um as part of

The process of updating the um tracking for this report we’ve had a number of conversations with services around the target dates that we set for implementation of the recommendations those dates are set when we um complete the work based on what we know at the time and um in those

Discussions what we’ve done is amended a number of dates um because because the recommendations were dependent on the finalization of digital Solutions um we can see that the services have been progressing those um recommendations but what they found when they’ve gone to design the solutions is that those

Things are more complex than had initially been thought which has meant that there’s additional time so we’ve taken the decision to amend the target date so that those recommendations stay on the services radar and um they get regular reminders around ensuring those are implemented rather than continuing

To show those as outstanding and they just get further and further um away from that original Target date um there are some recommendations that are over 3 months old but we have had um confirmation from management and all those services that all those recommendations are in proc in progress

So they are working to um Implement them they’ve Ju Just had um issues which has meant that they’ve not been able to meet those dates um some of the recommendations particularly in adults and health will be subject to a follow-up view which we have just commenced um so we’ll be able to

Determine the progress there and um make additional recommendations in the new report um we continue to receive good feedback through our csq process um and the last thing to highlight is completion of the plan there are a number of um reviews that haven’t been started um when we set the

Resourcing position at the beginning of the year it was in excess of the resources that have actually been available um that’s led us to review how we deliver the work to make sure that we can provide the assurances that we need um and also there’s been a number of

Pieces of work that have been added to the plan um as has been reported in the update reports um that reflect the change in the risk profile of the organization any reviews that are not started this year will be rolled into 2425 a consideration in the plan for 2425 um any

Questions councelor bthl thank you um I had a note on here to uh say how great it was that the uh there were less 12 month outof dat recommendations um and obviously uh the dates have have changed so it would be interesting for me to know um how many because it still looks

Like looking at the figures there’s been a lot of completed actually and I think there’s perhaps a almost a hidden story there of actually a huge amount of work’s being done and I wouldn’t want the public impression to be that actually we’ve just changed the

Dates on it so it’ be good perhaps to have the um the number that have been changed and I’m really pleased that there’s been themes highlighted as to why um it talked about that in the uh in the report as well so yeah I guess just

A slight um tweaking of the way it’s presented might be might be helpful and then on on a similar theme around tweaking the um one of the things that when we had this report last time um was that there were certain departments who were not replying for the responses in

Appendix B um it would be useful for us I think to have um an indication of where it was in the last quarter as well as this um just so that we can see because again it looks like we’re having a much better respon rate when we send

Stuff out which is really brilliant from from other directorates but it would be good to be able to without me having to uh go back and search through the emails to be able to see it thank you we can definitely take those uh suggestions on board when we have a look

At it um for the next update report Jonathan yeah just to come in on that one as well um all of the target dates that have been amended have come through quite a review process with myself as well so I can assure you there that there is only been a change to the

Date where it’s clear that there is progress that’s being made and other factors have uh kind of hindered the actual Target date there so it’s not a hidden story in that respect it’s only where there is reason to do so those that remain overdue remain overdue uh in that

Sense thank you any more questions Linda yeah thank thanks for that clarification Jonathan I think just to build on that point though I agree with Council bethor’s comment um and maybe one um useful way of presenting it is to to badge them as authorized overdue or or authorized rolled forward or

Something like that it just allows the committee and the public to see um the level of things that have been rolled forward and then if the committee wanted to Deep dive into any one of those then they could do um that’s just another option that you could explore I do have

A couple of questions if that’s okay um so I’m looking at the limited opinions that you’ve issued on schools and I know that’s been a bit of a theme over certainly over time and I recognize that you’re targeting and you rightly said in in your paper that you’re targeting um

The schools where you’ve had problems potentially that might be the wrong terminology but forgive me my question I suppose is in doing that is there a risk and and how are you managing the risk that the ones that you’re not looking at are not actually worsening um so just to give me some

Reassurance on that um then my next question on a separate topic is the and I know I’ve talked about it before the advisory versus the Assurance of your audit plan and how how do we satisfy ourselves as a committee um that that’s sufficient split you know you’re not

Doing too much advisory at the risk of not being able to provide Assurance going forward and how does that compare to peers um again it might be something that you have to take away and have a look at um but have a think about whether it’s something that you need

Approval from the committee for um you know I’m not suggesting you have to but it might be something that you just bring to the committee when you do your audit planning to separate out how much of your time is expected to be spent on Assurance versus

Advisory and then my final comment um is around the I think it’s a specific uh Me Maybe me being a bit dumb question page 147 um the it’s on a on the table the second box down on the right of that table am I reading it right when it says we have

Developed what does it say it says um but I can’t even find it now uh but the B helps if I go to the right page doesn’t it page 147 I said did I yeah the second the second box down on the right hand side the second paragraph

Says we have developed uh to utilize to strengthen Performance Management I’m not sure what that means so if you could explain that for me sh shall I take that the easy question first um that should say we’ve developed a dashboard so we’ve de we’re in the process of developing a dashboard for

Our performance um to enable us to review it in real time okay apologies for the typo there there’s nothing that gets me more than seeing those so um apologies for that so yeah as always l a great suggestion around recommendation tracking uh and I think I would just like to add on that

One as well um over this last period a real thank you to Angela and the team for the efforts to to bring this up to date and for colleagues across the council um what I don’t want to kind of get away from is what a good position

This is in seeing the progress that’s being made and where we are now I think compared to for example where we were a year ago in understanding the actions that are being taken I think it reflects really well on both ourselves and the council um our colleagues across the

Council in in that position um on the schoes uh so I know this is this has been an issue that’s been raised uh a number of times there we are looking at the way that we undertake our schools audits a little bit differently and trying to understand the different

Sources of assurance there for example there is a schools Finance team who are in regular contact with the schools around their budget position and monitoring and it’s assurance that comes from that as well and various other mechanisms through which they are required to produce returns often in the

Form of self assessments um that we’ve drawn upon in our risk assessment in the past that’s enabled us I guess to Target some of those scores that are in difficulty while providing some Assurance around the position of the other schools but I think it’s time for

Us to to kind of look differently uh at the way that we get some of those wider assurances around schools we’ve probably focused on specific areas of risk now so I think that continuing work that we do with the schools Finance team to understand where the intervention comes

From them and where the intervention comes from ourselves will be key um and that’s something that obviously will come through in our planning and we’ll be back at committee uh in I think it’s less than a month actually uh around the planning process there um again taking on your points around that balance

Between advisory work and Assurance work something that we’ve been trying to do is um monitor I think a bit more robustly what influence we are providing through that advisory work um so that we can see that our check and challenge uh there is influenc in the direction uh of

Activities on the go um so I’m trying to in that um to that end get more of a handle on what the outcomes are from that advisory work which which I think is one of the things that is key to achieving that right balance between what Assurance work we do and what

Advisory work we do within that plan um as you probably know we have our regular meetings with cor’s partners and the regional audit groups as well and I think most audit functions are facing this particular challenge at the moment in achieving that balance so it does

Give us the chance to Benchmark um our planning process there and I think you’ve given me some uh really interesting food for thought there around what can come through when we present our approach to planning uh to committee last month so does that answer the questions it does Jonathan thank you for

That thank you okay thank you very much we’re going to be moving on to the next agenda right sorry are we happy with the recommendations in the report are we happy to accept them keep doing that sorry so we’re going to move on to next agenda item which is which is Count

Counter fraud and Corruption Jonathan thanks chair yeah so um this is the b b annual update that we present on uh counter fraud activity um so the report essentially splits into a couple of different parts um firstly I think it’s the work um of our dedicated counter fraud team in internal audit um

And then obviously the oversight of what happens across the authority uh so the first part of it um and I think this is all information that members will be familiar with from certain uh from previous reports runs through referrals that we’ve received um and gives an update on the position and

The outcomes that have been delivered from that in summarized form obviously taken into account that these will be uh items of confidentiality um we run the committee through various pieces of internal audit work uh that we’ve done to support our C fraud activity for example around mileage claims and purchasing card

Activity as well as the various raising or awareness raising activities um that we’ve been ongoing with During the period as well and you’ll see that we brought the anti-bribery policy the updated anti-bribery policy 2 committee uh for endorsement um so no big updates to that but it’s had a bit of a refresh

To bring the values of the authority front and center again in there um and I think uh when you look at this and you look at the survey of internal control results uh that come through which are largely positive I would say but it does highlight to us areas where we can push

For further engagement and I think the policy on a page is really key here I think that’s in keeping with what we’re trying to what the authority is trying to achieve here in terms of simplifying policy and making this a bit more accessible to people so that there is

The more uh summarized accessible document there so that policy on a page I hope is key to that as well as our push for further uh engagement with ourselves across directorates as well so I think dashboard information was was talked about in um in the previous report this is something that we’re

Continuing to develop in the counter fraud Arena as well and then that engagement with the directorate leadership teams just helps with our oversight position around how fraud risks are being managed across the authority so the remainder of the report does steer largely through um the highlights of activities there are

Undertaken elsewhere uh in counter fraud activity um and I think we put Ross there that we’re this is this is something that it’s an area that I’ve taken on uh over recent months um so we are now trying to um really give ourselves a push of uh where we need to

Focus our attention and enabling us to for example talk to other authorities around how they approach some of these risks as well um because I do think that dialogue is so important with other authorities in helping us to feel confident in what our arrangements are as a council and lastly there

Um we as we are required to do provide an update on um the council’s use of uh its powers under the regulation of investig Powers act so I we’ll try to take any questions I think often in this area it does lend itself to coming back with more detailed information outside

Of the meeting um but happy to open up the floor to any questions and deal with what we can any questions no okay that’s very good right we’re going to so are we okay with the recommendations that are set out in the report and to move that forward yeah

Okay wonderful thank you um going to move on to item 12 which is Grant thon’s um audit update report I’m just going to go to Mary first thank you thank you chair yes and there have been some developments on this item since the papers were circulated to

Committee so I’ll just update members on those first uh so just on Friday the government issued a joint state statement in conjunction with the National Audit office the financial reporting Council and various other interested bodies setting out the proposal um to bring the time scales for local Authority audits back in line

Gradually over a 5-year period uh accompanying that statement there are two consultations one on the accounts and audit regulations for councils and one on the code of audit practice which uh applies to Auditors there’s due to be a third consultation from sip uh which will uh make changes to the 23 24 and

2425 accounts requirements for property valuations and pensions disclosures with the aim of reducing the amount of time that needs to be spent by both accountants and Auditors on those areas over the next two years uh so the draft accounts and audit regulations do introduce the uh expected

Back stop of 30th of September for councils to publish audited accounts for 22 23 and any earlier years that are outstanding what they then go on to do is introduce over the following five years a series of back stops so starting with uh 31st of May 2025 back stop for

The 2324 final audited accounts and then gradually reducing those time scales over the following five years uh the government are also as part of that consultation proposing to extend the deadline for local draft accounts for next year 2425 beyond the 31st of May because of the coincidence with that

Back stop they aren’t currently proposing to extend the draft accounts date for this year uh I think perhaps they haven’t appreciated that this year’s back stop is likely to have caused Auditors to want to carry on um audits during April and May this year which wouldn’t normally be the case that

Is one thing that we will be going back on our response to the consultation um in terms of the um requirements for Auditors that are changing in the code of audit practice uh Auditors will be required to produce um audit reports and an audit opinion in sufficient time for

Councils to meet those back stop dates um where the audit opinion has been modified or disclaimed as a result of the back stop there is guidance that Auditors need to be quite clear in their audit opinion that that is the case uh the guidance then goes on to say that if

Um Auditors are issuing a modified or qualified opinion for reasons other than the back stop uh they are required to consider whether or not a statute of recommendation or a public interest report would be appropriate uh so that summarizes um the new information we got on Friday and

I’ll hand over to Grant Thornton to present their report and to add anything that they need to as a result of what was published on Friday thank you uh thanks very much for that Mary and thanks chair so this paper is a summary I guess of where we are with the

Respective audit years that are still open at leads so uh chair you and and members will be uh aware that our 2122 uh accounts audit uh has has been ongoing uh We’ve presented uh two versions of the ISA 260 report to this committee uh in the last

Calendar year uh work has continued on that audit since we last met um in in November uh as we say in the report we’re about 90% complete now uh and we are working through um the remaining outstanding areas which are principally around um valuation of your property

Plant and equipment fixed asset and this I suppose ties in what Mary was saying earlier in that an awful lot of uh audit time and indeed Council Finance time and valous time are wrapped up in these uh uh particular areas of high value highest uh estimate and judgment uh and

That’s one thing that the uh consultation that was issued on Friday is looking into trying to reduce going forward but nevertheless for this particular audit for 2122 and indeed for 2223 it still will be um a requirement and also some aspects of the technical hot review that uh that the 2122

Accounts were subject to I think it’s worth emphasizing that um Regular engagement is taking place between um myself and Victoria and also uh with Pinda and our team and Richard and Mary on a weekly basis to try to ensure that we get where we need to get

To uh by the end of next month with the 2122 audit and all parties uh are committed to getting that audit concluded by that date so that we can then move forward into the 2223 uh audit chair and suppose on on section one we’ve just tried to summarize that uh

And in the uh in the briefing note it’s worth just emphasizing as well to the committee that whilst the accounts audit um has two years worth uh ongoing the value for money audit chair is up to date so the 2122 bfm was reported almost a year ago and at the November meeting

Towards the end of last year we reported our 2223 value for money work and our it controls work on 2223 was reported so aspects of the overall audit work are continuing to be uh progressed and and completed as as Mary’s uh mentioned the consultation came out uh on on Friday it

Has formally said that there will be a back stop date of the end of September uh 24 for all uh account years of 22 23 and earlier uh that are completed I think it’s worth saying that as a firm we are generally taking a very clear line that anything not concluded by by

The end of March is likely to be uh back stop chair on the basis that our resources typically shift into our NHS clients in April May and June and then that lead would leave a very tight time scale between July and and the end of September to deliver uh a number of

Local Authority audits particularly when you factor in annual leave on both our side and finance side typically in in August having said that chair I’ve been in discussions with with our national head of public sector audit and indeed our national head of overall audit at Grant Thornton um essentially to make a

Case for continuing with the 2223 accounts audit here at leads through discussions with Victoria who’s also Keen for us to continue and essentially providing we can get 2122 concluded by the end of March um The Firm will immediately progress onto 22 23’s audit from the beginning of April through to the end of

September in order to do that we’ve set aside uh two of our more experienced Auditors and specifically kept them out of our NHS audits to give them that time and scope to focus on the leads 2223 accounts from the beginning of April onwards and they will be supplemented by

Uh other relevant colleagues in that April to to September period so I suppose in essence chair um close engagement is taking place on both sides between now and the end of March to get 2122 over the line and providing that happens we will then move straight into 2223 between

April and the end of September with a view to completing the audit in full there’s clearly risks around that chair um as we’ve set out in the paper uh but both sides are going to be uh committee to uh delivering that as supp just a couple of other final points before

Before I pause chair one is that um I’m aware how um seriously the council’s taking this um Victoria shared with me in terms of the discussions at at CLT on this particular issue uh and the chief exec made a very clear statement to um see your colleagues in terms of ensuring

That the um Finance team and us as external Auditors uh get the required responses and input from from other relevant colleagues between now uh and the end of September and the other point I was just going to say chair is that some of the things around the back stop

And um you know the potential uh issues arising from that will feed into that Workshop session chair that Pinda and I are going to do for you and and and other members towards the uh beginning of March and it’s quite a timely um you know date to hold that given the the

National consultation that’s taking place so I’ll pause at that point chair but obviously happy to take any questions you or other colleagues may have thank you I’ve um I’ve got a couple of questions I’ve been thinking about this because we’ve had meetings last week and also reading your

Report um that that you’ve sent through thank you for doing that I’m just trying to understand um why Grant thoron would make a statutory recommendation to the council if the 21 and 22 accounts are not signed off by the 31st it actually contradicts what central government has actually put

Forward so as a as a firm we’re looking at those authorities where the audit work has um gone on significantly after the balance sheet date to which the accounts relate and I guess if we did get to a a position of a statutory recommendation it would be an elevation

Of previously reported issues at at this particular Council chair so if you go back to um you know our 19 20 uh 21 2021 and 2122 vfm reports there are um issues in relation to the accounts audit that were raised in each of those three years that

I suppose we felt were not sufficiently addressed when we came along to do the 2223 vfm audit hence why those were elevated in that report back in November from an improvement level recommendation to a key level recommendation in my discussions um with with my colleagues uh and uh you know looking

Across the the Grant Thornton client base if we can’t sign off 2122 by the end of March the view would be that the action since the key recommendation in you know the October November period when we discussed it with with the council had not been sufficient that would be um a possible

Case for for raising a formal statutary recommendation on that uh on that particular issue and you know I suppose we’ve we’ve talked before that um you know as a local audit team I’d like to think we have we do have a a pretty strong record in terms of uh delivery on

On on audited accounts um you know elsewhere in our in our portfolio and you know if we don’t get to where we uh need to by the end of March that would potentially trigger a stat wreck having said all that chair you know both sides are committed to

Concluding the 2122 audit by the end of next month so providing that happens then um you know there wouldn’t be a requirement for that chair okay thank you we are definitely committed um to meeting that deadline um I’m just curious we the only um clients of yours that are having that deadline imposed

On on us so in terms of my personal client base yes uh because all my other clients were either signed off pre Christmas for 2223 um and in two cases our audit work is complete but we are awaiting uh pensions Assurance from another firm uh which we are expecting to receive before

The end of March so from my own local government portfolio uh you’re the only audit that has 212 2 and 2223 outstanding as a firm clearly Grant thornson audits over 40% of the market and there are a number of uh clients that have 22 23 or earlier um audits

That are outstanding and as I mentioned before because of the timing of our NHS work and because of the holiday season in Late July August the firm is generally taking a view that although the back stop is 30th of September in effect it’s it’s it’s it’s more the end

Of March chair um so you are the only ones for me but there will be others across the country that are audited by Grant Thornton thank you so there are others across the country that aren’t that are part of your um BR thon’s CL base that would be

Having this this deadline imposed on them that that is my EXP expectation from speaking to colleagues chair yes but you know I I’m responsible for my portfolio and and it doesn’t affect any other any other of my clients personally okay thank you I’m going to bring in um Victoria

Now uh thank you chair what um I’d just like to understand is that um when we’ve had the value for money um opinions we have had recommendations that um we did do management responses for um and um we weren’t in total agreement with the recommendations and we we set that out

Quite clearly and that Improvement had been made in the working papers and the timeliness ETC but that recommendation only came in November we’re only the first second week of November February we haven’t had time to you know to make differences that grand thoron would be able to see we’ put a lot of

Things in in place now that would enable that to happen um so I think to evaluate us on that basis is is quite is really difficult and if it is around the back stop a statutory recommendation means that you have to call full Council so

It’s to be clear on that and you have to do that within is it 10 day two weeks I can’t remember two weeks yeah two weeks and you have to produce an action plan on how you’re going to improve and then that’s um detailed and and discussed but

If it’s on a back stop date and we’ve missed the back stop date and this is worst case scenario I just reemphasize that because we are going to work very closely to get that dat I don’t really know what the Improvement would be because you’ve missed the back stop date

So you’re not you’re not going to hit it um and I would also say just to note that this is a two-way process and Grant Thornton have their opinion on certain things and we have ours and we’re trying to work together to get a resolution we will definitely

Do that this year well as we’ve done in other years but we will really work together to get this six months but the re work requests that are coming through and the technicality of it around the sit for code and other regulations that we have to ader to we

Do spend quite a bit time explaining them which which creates more um time I’d also say we’ve had hot reviews F FRC reviews we’ve been looked over in an awful lot of detail and those accounts have not qualified they’re clean and I just think from our view as lead city

Council if we got to the point where it was a statutory recommendation my view is section5 of 151 officer would be that that was really unfair and not justified so I just wanted that note in the meeting thank you Gareth would you like to come back

In on that I mean you know Victor’s um expressed you know similar views to to to to those to me directly in in our regular engagement um you know I take uh take on board Victoria’s comments um I suppose all I would do is reiterate that

You know our audit approach um here at at leads is no different to anywhere else um and you know we’re up toate elsewhere so um you know we’re not deliberately trying to be uh um you know particularly difficult or a different particular audit approach here at least

Than we would uh do do anywhere else in my particular client base but you know I understand you know Victoria’s uh point of view and you know the main thing is that both sides continue to work very closely over the next six weeks to to get to that

Position at the end of March um which you know any um possibility or threat of statutary Rex would uh would would would not be relevant at that point because we were signed off 2122 as as both sides are intending to do chair okay thank you very much any any other further

Questions sorry councelor bthl thank you um I have to be honest I was uh a little surprised by by the the way this paper was written almost like it was the head teacher um rather than a partner of the organization it was in particularly punishing term of phrase

That was used in a lot of it um and I have quite a concern around the impact that will have on our staff well-being um especially the bits where it’s if at any point a single Milestone is missed so if there’s an issue whereby a member

Of staff is off sick and doesn’t send an email is that going to suddenly trigger um the back stop on the 2223 um and if so that seems completely unreasonable to me um and if that was to be invoked would Grant thoron still expect to be paid for the audit work or

Does that stop um because of that um I’d be interested to know who decided the different milestones and the dates um and whether that was done in conjunction also there’s a lot in this paper around whether or not we um meet these deadlines and I just wondered what

Guarantee we had from Grant Thornton around completing uh the audit on time because there’s also a few sort of all we reckon we’ll probably get there type phrases on the other side um I wonder do Grant Thornton do work on any other core cities um or whether it’s

Other local authorities that don’t have the size that we do um I would be interested in why 2122 is late um and from what um Victoria was saying there there seems to I’ve brought this up before in meetings there seems to be a relatively High need from Grant

Thornton for us to provide an awful lot of um explanation and then recommendations that come through that uh almost show a lack of understanding of the processes and I wonder again whether or not actually there is I guess it might be because I don’t understand because I’m not an auditor

That might come as a surprise to everyone um it might be that I don’t understand but when I send accounts off for guides or whatever to be audited by somebody they then do the work and come back to me with an answer there’s not a huge amount I realize it’s a much bigger

Thing there’s not a huge amount for us to then um go back and forth with so I don’t know if that’s a confusion for me or whether actually um there needs to be better understanding thank you thanks chair so I think I’ve tried to log most of those points I suppose

One of the first points you mentioned was the audit fee if we don’t conclude 2223 um that’s a very good question and it’s one of the things that will need to be um resolved nationally because that’s absolutely a fair challenge that you know the way that audit fees under the

Current contract to build the the scale fee is typically build in advance of the work so the scale fee for 2223 will largely been build and paid by the council now um so there will be something nationally coming out for that because that what just in a worst case

Scenario if we don’t finish 2223 leags won’t be on their own in that and there’ll be some national edict that comes out in terms of how audit fees are uh dealt with um in terms of the Milestones there they Milestones that we’ve proposed that obviously we need to finalize and formalize with with

Victoria and her team I think that’s it’s worded along that along those lines but in essence all that work needs to be done by the end of September so there may be some nuances in terms of certain things changing in that April to September period but in essence in order

To get it over the line in full all those actions will will will need to be done um GT uh we do audit um other core cities um some are done by GT some are done by uh other firms uh none of the other ones are personally done by uh by

Me um speaking to colleagues you know some of those other C cities May well be captured by by the back stop obviously some of them quite high profile in terms of wider challenges I guess that that that that they are facing um in terms of I suppose the the

Potential lack of understanding of of of GT or the level of questions that um we ask of of of the final team that there are a lot of audit query so you know it’s your example is is not typical in in public sector audit um there’s quite

A prescribed approach to that level of audit work that in there’s been a huge increase in the level of sort of granularity of our audit work um following um requirements of of the audit regulator the F FRC looking at public sector audits whereas four or five years ago in essence a lot of

Public sector audit files were not at the required standard in the opinion of the F FRC uh and a lot of that push back was around the lack of uh detailed testing on areas of estimate and judgment hence why you know the audit work over the last three or four years

Years has been very detailed around valuation of assets the valuation of your share of of the West Yorkshire pension fund uh areas of estimate and judgments around acrs there is an awful lot of of of of audit work and indeed work for the finance team uh in those

Areas again I would come back to the same point though that that level of challenge questioning uh level of detail of audit work here at leads is um not any different to what we do El where I know leads is is our biggest client as a leads office um but we audit on

Materiality so you know proportionately your materiality is higher than say some of our other Metropolitan councils elsewhere in the region or some of our smaller bodies that we do so in essence you know the areas of material judgment proportionately are are are broadly the same if that makes sense even though

You’re a much bigger um Council in terms of uh size of your income and expenditure and balance sheet so apologies Council Bess if I’ve missed any of the other ones please do repeat any that that that I’ve missed there thank you chair um I I think you’ve captured um answers to most of

The questions I guess the only thing that’s still playing on my mind is on page five of the supplementary it says however if in our view um which again is very one-sided any of the Milestones appear not to be met audit work on the council’s 2022 23 financial statements

Will cease and we will automatically revert to the back stop so can I have confirmation that if something that is meant to be sent to you Misses the date that you have put on that spreadsheet is the actual plan that you will then that afternoon revert to back

Stop on because that is a huge pressure to put on staff well I mean we we look at we would look at things in the round I think the key point we’re trying to make from the from this report is that um because of the I suppose the length

Of time it’s taken to conclude prior year audits at leads and given that the back stop is at the end of September we’ve got to have Um an increased level in terms of um respon time to to audit queries in order to bring forward our audit work in essence by six months because the last three years we’re going have signed off in in in in in the March so you know I I would wouldn’t say 100%

That if something was missed we wouldd immediately revert to the to the back stop clearly there’d be a discussion process with Victoria um and and her team to take into account any particular um uh you know reasons for why things might have been slipped but I think one of the points we

Mentioned in the in the vfm report is um that leads um when we we ran a session sort of this time last year um for for for for the council as a whole um around the audit process and working papers uh pera pera LED that I think there were

100 people broadly that that dialed in so I think you know the the the the the capacity I suppose is is there and I suppose it’s to how that capacity is utilized I guess between now and September when you know key people will inevitably be off ill or or or take

Leave that that’s you know taken into account in terms of prioritizing you know the audit process to to get us where we need to by the end of September thank you I’m uh I’m glad that that’s not as hard a boundary as is as it implies because it would be a lot to

Trigger a back stop two months earlier than the government’s ministerial statement suggested it would so thank you thanks chair thank you very much Victoria I’m going to come to you and then to councelor Ray thank you ju I just think um it’d be worth me

Clarifying that um and I did say this um previously that in the audits that we’ve had we’ve had FRC reviews and hot reviews which are quite detailed which check the whole audit and I’m assuming that we’re not going to be having those on the 2223 audit so it will be purely Grant

Thornton’s audit individually just on the other point about the staff resource um members will be aware the the teams involved are setting budgets monitoring those budgets closing accounts auditing 20 providing audit response to 2122 they’ll be going on to providing resources for 22 23 we’re bringing in a

Whole new Financial system that affects the whole of the authority and they’re under pressure and they’re already working ridiculous hours which we are looking to Resource more we’ve put more resources in in the main team around to release those staff of Core Business transformation and we’ve

Put we’re now going to put an additional resource in to meet the audit requirements but I have got to wait this isn’t about staff being off sick and going on holiday because they haven’t you know they I’m making them have the holidays by the end of the year because

They’ve been working full on getting a budget balanced and I just think it needs understanding in the round that so have then layered this on top with that threat of a statutory recommendation is something that I’m really concerned of as section 151 officer but we’ve agreed as a team we’ve agreed with Grant

Thornton that we will do everything we can to hit those deadlines because we we don’t want to do it we don’t want a statutory recommendation but we do want an audited set of accounts because it’s really important for the city um so we have talked as a team we’ve looked at

The additional resources we need um and we’re going to get those in place as soon as we can and I discussed that with CLT on Tuesday and they’re very supportive of making sure that we can have some additional resources to make sure we hit them but it’s just

Understanding what the teams are working under at the moment thank you yeah thanks chair just to follow up the first bit of Victoria’s response there so typically our hot reviews are cyclical so you had one 1920 you’ve got one in 2122 so it’s unlikely you’d have one in

2223 and on the F FRC sort of inspection point one of the uh possibilities of the consultation is that they will um step back from their um formal inspection of a sample of external audit files for 22 23 to help the overall reset of the sector as a whole so in essence what

Victoria said around it’s unlikely to be FC inspected and unlikely to have a a grant Thon technical hot review is correct so it would be primarily myself Pinda and our team and Victoria Richard and Mary and and and the council’s team to to work together um between now and

And and end of September chair thank you definitely thank you um Mariana thank you chair um yeah just to emphasize really and what Victoria has already said you know Tom’s absolutely aware of this and fully committed you know to the team um and we really you know we want to work in collaboration

And try and find a way through um within the deadlines as everybody um has said I think you know to councilor bial’s point before it is just that kind of clarity um of what’s expected so you know the most recent example this was a team outside of Finance with Asset Management

Where you know we wrote out last week to all our Z managers to emphasize how important it was that everybody responded where uh we needed to to get this across the line but I guess just a plea for that early conversation so that we’re absolutely sure on sit for

Guidance on RCS guidance Etc that we are all after the same thing and that there is that Clarity so that we don’t waste any time um because you know we all know the financial position that we’re in um so it’s just making good use of office

ATT time as much as we possibly can from the get-go in these scenarios if possible thank you chair yeah just a couple of points um saying it shouldn’t or it may not is not exactly a very reassuring answer either we’re going to have a hot review we’re

Not going to have a hot review based on your cycle saying maybe or it shouldn’t doesn’t really give uh our staff much confidence or us much confidence in that answer it’s a bit woolly if you don’t mind me saying uh in terms of of this I

Must I do agree with councils and and office to a certain extent we’re in this mess because of a national issue and this isn’t something that’s been created at leads this isn’t something that uh any of the local authorities across the country wanted to be in a position of

And yet it seems that your language is overly firm now I would expect you too you’re there to order account we’re one of the most important core cities in the entire country but we’re also as I think being pointed out by officers under extreme pressure trying to make make

Sure we deliver the services for the people of this city and we’re having to deal with a national issue that we did not create and was created elsewhere and and the language seems unreasonably punishing and and I think just to pick up Mariana’s point I would appeal very

Strongly to you that if you’ve got any concerns that that they’re raised at the earliest opportunity and and I think this is as as an actual question uh because I don’t really need you to come back on the comment I think it stands on its own how many actual cities are

Actually currently outstanding for their uh audit the sorry let me rephrase that local authorities because everything is a city how many local authorities are currently outstanding for their audit for 2122 and how many of the core cities are outstanding for their audit for 2122 uh I don’t have the exact numbers

To hand I do know overall in terms of the overall number of local Authority accounts that are currently outstanding there are 900 in the across the country some of which dating back as far as 156 well there’s there’s there’s roughly 480 local authorities councils police bodies national parks Etc in any one

Year um so some authorities within that 480 have got multiple years outstanding so the gross total is roughly uh 900 um I take your point on board around um this is a national issue which it absolutely Ely is um I would challenge the the view um within our own local

Team because as I say that the delivery um record of our team working out of our leads office across our Yorkshire client base is is very strong counselor a in my opinion um because you know our audits are up to date elsewhere but not withstanding that absolutely

There is a massive national issue hence why government’s issued the cons consultation on Friday Victoria do want to come in I was just going to confirm numbers for the local um authorities there’s 25 that haven’t published the 21 22 accounts there’s 142 where the accounts have not been audited yet finished auditing for

2122 there’s 146 who have um for 22 23 there’s still 64 councils who’ve not published their accounts there’s 215 who’ve not had theirs audited and there’s 33 who have for 22 23 so there’s a lot of authorities in in similar positions um to ourselves thank you Gareth would you like to come back

With anything with that I don’t think there’s much more to add I mean you know the Victoria’s highlighted um you know there are a number of authorities without audited accounts for 22 23 and earlier nationally yeah okay thank you councelor dson must admit it did seem like a bit

Of an ultimatum and and therefore a bit of a a threat that if if we don’t meet the march on the September deadlines things are going to happen what is the appeal mechanism if if you find you can’t agree um what is the appeals mechanism

Um number one one and number two if the deadlines are mess and and you disappear off to do the NHS work um and so on what could the consequences be for the council so if it got to the stage where uh I was proposing a a statut recommendation for leads clearly there

Would be a an internal sort of consistency review and and panel within Grant Thornton uh with our most senior uh public sector uh Partners engaging in that particular discussion and if it got to um that stage um they would be um part of that process uh alongside myself

And and and and perminder um to engage with uh you know relevant Senior Management here at Le alongside Victoria um so you know that the there would be a an internal process Within Thornton if we got to that stage um and then a relevant obviously discussion with with

With the council uh before anything formally proceeded and sorry Council D the second part of the question sorry well sorry the the the the consequences so so so yeah so if if um if we’re not in a position to sign off your 2223 uh accounts by the end of September

And they are captured by the back stop uh we would have to issue um some form of modified audit opinion at the end of September now uh the I suppose the consequences for that at the moment are still to be confirmed because as we’ve already said there are

A number of sets of accounts that are outstanding nationally now ordinarily if you if you issued say a disclaimer opinion on a set of accounts that would be a very significant thing uh and would um need uh quite a significant level of audit resource on the following Year’s

Sets of accounts because you wouldn’t have any assurances over the opening position in in in the subsequent years accounts because no audit work had concluded on it having said that c d and because so many PE many authorities are likely to be captured in the back stop

Um the expectation is that there will be some form of um uh work around if you like over those uh opening balances for local authorities that hadn’t had a full audit but that’s still to be confirmed because the other otherwise you end up delivering a 23 24 set of

Accounts an audit that probably takes one and a half to two times a normal audit because you’re getting you’re insurance is over your opening position then you’re in your performance then your Assurance is over your closing balance and that if anything is likely to start another back lug Council

Dson so just just briefly C you’ve blown me mind already um the fact that we’re well the fact that we that 2223 isn’t produced is partly because we haven’t got a an end figure for 22 the 2223 draft accounts were produced by the council at the end of July last

Year so they do exist however those accounts will need to be updated at the point that we issue the opinion on the 2122 accounts for anything that’s significantly changed as a result of our 201122 audit okay thank you I’m going to go to counselor Robinson thanks chair I’m not sure how

Many hours could have been spent doing the accounts and the discussion of this item alone here um and I’m mindful that I can sometimes ask direct questions as Victoria knows and I’m on a deadline so I’m going to hope for some direct answers as well two questions for Gareth

And one for Victoria and then I W be any further chair uh Gareth within this and within your comments today you’ve said it’s a step you know it’s proposed so presumably this is not finalized there is wriggle room on this and that can come back to this committee because I don’t think we

Can wait till the next meeting for it to come back to this committee secondly as a percentage figure how close are we to getting this done are we at 90% 95% we’re at 5% I just to work out in my head and for Victoria presumably we procure Grant Thornton for this when

Does the contract with Grant Thornton end for this process so yes I mean as I as I said earlier you know if if we’re not on track to um and and don’t meet that that end of March deadline there will be a process uh to you know consider a statut

Recommendation the next meeting of this committee is on the 18th of March so um you know that’s you know 10 days whatever away from the end of the month so our aim and I know that this applies to the final team as well is that when

We come to that next meeting on the 18th of March that we are virtually ready and and to sign off the accounts uh on both sides at that meeting well in advance of the 31st of March uh in terms of um your sorry just could you just remind me of

The second question Council Rob apologies yeah course I can’t you did say in comments this morning that that’s a proposed deadline I was Fed Up of proposed back stops with brexit your answer there is not suggesting it’s proposed it’s suggesting that is Grant Thornton’s position so just yeah it is

AB 31st of March is absolutely the firm’s position it’s proposed no wle room that’s the answer right fine perfect the second one then is as a percentage to getting this over the line how close are we as a percentage so we we we mentioned on the top of page five

Um which we’re at about 90% complete um there are two main areas where um the main outstanding queries remain one is around the valuation of your land and buildings uh and the other is certain aspects of the technical hot review and those are the two key areas

That we need to resolve between now and the end of March and you think you can get that over the line in the next month we we are confident of that as long as we you know continue to have the uh level of Engagement and the um you know

The clarity of responses on those particular areas that give us ultimately the assurance that we can resolve the outstanding queries those areas I can’t see any you know we can only go by the suppose the assurance and evidence that we can get back from from the council sufficient time I think I

Understand that I can see why so many accountants go into politics that’s that’s right yeah so Victoria thank you um we’ve just finished a procurement for um external audit we’re part of the National Group who procure for a number of authorities all at the same time there’s I don’t

Think there’s only a handful that are not in in that procurement which is with psaa um it’s a five-year contract and it starts um with 2324 and we’ve we’ve got grant thornson for another um five years as part of that so it’s a continuation it’ll be a different um audit um manager

Um but it won’t it be a similar team it’s just for rotation thank you thank you coun councilor harbrook thank you chair I mean this meeting is the corporate governance and audit committee and I’m surprised that we’re challenging the Auditors that are coming in and finding the finding the issues surely as

A as a meeting what we should be discussing is what the rectification plan is in place to get us back on track which I’ve heard nothing of in this me in this meeting so I i’ welcome hearing clearly by the time time we next meet in

March we need to be a long way way down through this process to getting us back on track but what I’d like to understand is what the building blocks are and whether as a as a committee we’ll get some Milestones kind of put out in between meetings to understand that to

Give us confidence that we’re that we’re on the track that we are because I’m hearing a lot of criticizing the messenger and you know the language is is blunt but I think from what I’m hearing is it’s got blunt because this message has been given to was before as

A council and we’ve not acted on it much so it it’s got sharper because essentially we’ve come to the end of the road and need to get need to get to where we need to be so could we have some Assurance please that we’ll have

Some kind of map to get to get us back to where we need to be as a council thank chair um what I would say is that um throughout whenever we’re doing an audit we have we have an audit with we agree a plan with um Mary and

The team on what we need to do what we’ve got this year is an audit plan of what Grant Thornton will be going to be doing when and that’s obviously in your appendix so we’ve now got that this year what we wanted to do is after the

Meeting we’re going to sit down and go through and say is that the order that we’re going to undertake is there some things that we should do earlier Etc um I’ve met with CLT to get the commitment from the um all the directors to say that we will respond really quick L with

Any audit queries um I’m going to have a meeting with the team this week and next week because it’s annual it’s school holidays this week but to go through around the importance of um responding Tim left to any audit queries to make sure that the working papers are of a

Quality that they’ve been checked so everybody’s clear on what they need to do and by when um as I’ve said we’re bringing in an extra resource who will um support Mary in the program management um of the audit over the next six months so that it’s more of like a

Project so we’ll be making sure on a daily basis that any queries are coming in when what date those queries were asked for who’s responsible for them when we’ve responded back and then we’re going to record when we get followup requests because that is one of the

Things that it can be quite a period before we get a follow-up request when that follow-up request comes in we go straight out get the information and come back so it’s all clearly mapped What’s Happening by when the queries that are asked and the information so that we continuously learn from that and

That would then hopefully hit Grant Thornton’s um our deadlines to make sure that we hit the um 30th of September with’ the team have got weekly meetings in with gr Thornton so that we’re discussing any issues that are coming through in a timely fashion I’ve got monthly meetings or the going in

With Gareth and the team to make sure that we’re we’re all clear of what’s outstanding what needs to be done um I think together I would say that um the two teams will work well and get it over the line so that we do hit it but then I

Do agree we need to say what do we need to do to hit the May and then to bring It Forward again so that we’re back on track so that audits the accounts are closed by the 31st May and audits are done by the end of September which um is

The ideal where we need to be and then everybody else can get back on to doing the work that they should be doing that period and not being dragged back into Audits and close your accounts Etc okay thank you thank you Victoria that’s actually really good answer and I think I fully

Appreciate this is on top of other pressures that your team has got on you know with uh just balancing the books from a a month-to-month basis but I think that understanding what the sequence of work is is is really good really good to hear thank

You I’m I’m just going to ask um just two questions um well one of them’s something um just basically an option um will all authorities who received the modified audit um option receive this receive a statutary recommendation and the second um point I’d like to make would you reconsider rewriting that

Statement regarding the staty recommendation that you’ve put in the report for it to sound a little bit lighter I’m just thinking about staff well-being uh thank you chair so um the H I I I’m not sure how many um you know will um ultimately end up in in in stat R

Territory each uh I suppose audit is is is different there will be um you know differing reasons why um you know certain authorities are captured by by the back stop um all I can do is is you know give a view that you know this is

Where we’re at in terms of leads um but any decisions on leads would go through a proper due process within Grant Thornton’s um own own procedures in terms of the paper um I’m happy to leave the uh wording in the paper as it is chair to be honest um I take on board

It’s a more stronger form of words than um than we’ve used uh previously um but I suppose it’s just the emphasizes the um significance that the firm is is is uh interpreting towards the circumstances here at least to ensure that we all get where we need to by the end of September

Chair okay thank you very much um do you yeah Linda thank you I’ve really really enjoyed that listening to that that conversation and dialogue and and and sorry for for for for laughing there as I’m speaking but I think it’s because it’s really important and really serious

That that both parties are willing to work together in the way that we’ve heard from Victoria and her team and from uh Gareth and his team I guess just picking up on one point that Victoria I think really helpfully reminded the committee of was how busy and how

Stretched her team are at the moment and what other things they’ve got on their plate and I think with that in mind and recognizing the tone of the Grant Thornton report and all that goes with it and the importance behind it are there any guarantees from Grant Thornton

In a similar way to what Victoria’s just guaranteed from her team that you will commit the right resource The Specialist skilled resource that will enable the team to answer a question once um and answer it in the way that you want it answering rather than forgive me for

Being blunt um putting a a less skilled member of staff from your team onto the audit that that then creates follow on work from to the you know to Mary and her team I think it’s a you know a bit of a a match made in heaven to have the

Best resource from the council but to match that with the best resource from Grant Thon as well uh thanks Linda thanks chair you’re you’re absolutely right and I suppose what we’ve done um with our resourcing on leads because of the significance of this Council the significance of this

Audit we have allocated our stronger people to the audit um throughout the the the the the period of the uh the original contract specifically on 2223 uh as I mentioned earlier U we’ve deliberately withheld two of our most experienced Auditors from any NHS work to specifically work on 22 23’s audit

Here at Leeds um they will be um supplemented um during that period by our more experienced trainees and part qualified members of staff that have worked on leads previously so that they’ve got an understanding of you know Mary’s team FMS etc etc so I can absolutely give

That guarantee that um you know in order for us to give ourselves the best chance of hitting that those deadlines we want our our Premier sort of team that’s uh that’s to work on it and you know we’ve absolutely identified that resource I’ve got approval from um senior colleagues

To as I say effectively take two colleagues out of our NHS audits to specifically focus in April and June when most of us will be doing NHS that they are focusing on 2223 audit here at leads thank you and does that also apply for the next six weeks also as well for

Clearing off the 2122 accounts uh yes absolutely so again the team that’s dealing with 2122 um is um you know he’s made up of our stronger colleagues um and with the exception of of of one particular colleague unfortunately he’s he’s moving on uh at the beginning of March those same

Individuals will be involved in uh in the 2223 audit okay thank you very much I just want to say thank you to the grant thoron team and to um the leads team for working on the audits but as special thanks to Victoria and her team members

And working out and and trying to get us of that hurdle um are are we happy to accept the recommendations in the report yeah okay thank you I’m going to move on to item 13 which is the work program Kate yes it’s the the last iteration of

The work program for this year showing the last remaining meeting um but the report also mentions that we are working on developing the work program for the committee for next year um and invites members to come up with any suggestions um I would ask that you send

Any suggestions you may have to the chair so that we can look at them carefully work out what’s definitely for the audit committee as opposed to a matter of scrutiny invite relevant SC chairs to take on those matters that aren’t perhaps um other than that done okay um are there any questions

Regarding the work program are we happy as it is okay um I’m just going to say thank you I know today’s meeting has run um slightly over but thank you very much for coming and the next meeting will take place on at 10:30 on the 18th of

March thank you very much thank you for everyone who attended today by