This week on the podcast Mikki speaks to Guillaume Millet about the endurance athlete. They discuss factors which determine success, how important VO2 max is for someone going long, Guillaume’s flush model and what creates fatigue, how we might train to be better athletes and build resilience against fatigue.
Dr. Guillaume Millet, PhD, is a professor at Jean Monnet University in Saint-Etienne.From 1998 to 2013, he held various academic positions in France, including a 4-year full-time research contract at the French National Institute for Medical Research (INSERM).In 2013, he moved to the University of Calgary where he directed a research team of ~15 trainees, the Neuromuscular Fatigue Lab. He also was Vice-Chair Research of the Canadian Society for Exercise Physiology from 2014 to 2016.Back to France in 2018, he received a very competitive IDEXLYON fellowship (1,16 million €), a program that aims to attract outstanding scientists with a strong international track record and now leads the ActiFS (Physical Activity, Fatigue, Health) academic chair.Prof. Millet was named at the Institut Universitaire de France as a Senior member in 2019 and director of the inter-university Laboratory of Human Movement Biology in 2020.His general research area investigates the physiological, neurophysiological and biomechanical factors associated with fatigue, both in extreme exercise and in patients (neuromuscular diseases, cancer, ICU). His research is focusing on understanding fatigue in order to create tailored rehabilitation programs for clinical populations in order to enhance patients’ quality of life.In July 2021, he had published 5 books and 260 journal articles (cited 10,700 times), his H index was 55. He has supervised 37 postdoctoral fellows and PhD students coming from 13 different countries and he served as an external reviewer for over 60 PhD candidates. Guillaume has been an invited speaker ~ 137 times in 17 different countries.Dr Millet’s profile here: https://libm.univ-st-etienne.fr/en/research-teams/paf/researchers/millet-guillaume.html ( https://libm.univ-st-etienne.fr/en/research-teams/paf/researchers/millet-guillaume.html )
Research gate https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Guillaume-Millet-3 ( https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Guillaume-Millet-3 )
Mikkipedia
Episode 216
December 19, 2023
★ Episode details: https://share.transistor.fm/s/a16d6e44
★ Additional episodes: https://www.mikkiwilliden.com
Welcome hi I’m Mickey and this is mikipedia where I sit down and chat to doctors professors athletes practitioners and experts in their fields related to Health Nutrition Fitness and well-being and I’m delighted that you’re here hey everyone it’s Mickey here you’re listening to mikipedia and this
Week on the podcast I talk to gam Malay an athlete himself all about the endurance athlete and fatigue we discuss factors which determine success how important V2 Max is for someone going long G’s flush model of fatigue what creates fatigue how we might train to be a better athlete and build resilience
Against fatigue and at the time of the recording we had just had the tmbb in shemoney and Courtney dewal had just sort of collected her Triple Crown so we begin our discussion by having a bit of chat about that which was super fun so for those of you who are interested in
Endurance Sport and building resiliency this is an awesome conversation and I’m I’m delighted to say that G’s going to come back on the show just after the new year and we’re going to talk sex differences and endurance athletes but for now we focus particularly on um fatigue and building
Resiliency so Dr Gan Malay is a professor at Gan Monet University in St etin from 1998 to 2013 he held various academic possessions in France including a 4-year full-time research contract at the French National Institute for medical research and in 2013 he moved to the University of Calgary where he
Directed a research team in the neuromuscular fatigue lab and he was also also the vice chair research for the Canadian Society for exercise physiology from 2014 to 2016 he subsequently went back to France and received a very competitive Fellowship that attracts outstanding scientists with a strong International
Track record and he now leads the actor FS physical activity fatigue and health academic chair so his general research area investigates the physiological neurophysiological and biomechanical factors associated with fatigue both in extreme exercise and in patience with neuromuscular diseases cancer and uh patients in intensive care his research
Is focusing on understanding fatigue in order to create tailored Rehabilitation programs for clinical populations in order to enhance patients quality of life and we do discuss a little bit about how everyone is just on a spectrum and so most of the same principles really apply gim has published many
Books Journal articles and has supervised many post postdoctoral fellows and PhD students from 13 different countries and uh I have a link to gim’s profile and his research gate page in the show notes for you to have a closer look at his research that we discuss today just a reminder that the
Best way to support the podcast is to hit the Subscribe button on your favorite podcast listening platform that increases the visibility of the podcast out there and amongst literally thousands of other podcasts so more people get the opportunity to learn from the guests that I have on this show including G and
Malay G thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me this morning um it’s great to chat to someone who is both in the research with running and I know it’s not just running you do you have a health Focus as well uh uh but
You’re also in with athletes too and some of the like crem the crem of of the athletes in the ultra um space are you a runner as well I used to be do you do you still run like for yeah I run for yeah for my pleasure uh but I’m not
Competing anymore I did well I did a competition last year I may do one this year again not two but uh yeah just for fun uh but I used to uh to be a heavy ultra urance F myself uh yes yes and it’s funny the way you describe how you
Run now is pretty much everyone every middle-aged I’m middle-aged every middle-aged Runner would probably probably say this the same thing um people are still competing pretty hard at uh while I’m 54 and some people are still doing like take l lovic not 54 he’s 48 so
He’s but he’s still placed fifth at the UTMB this year it is crazy isn’t it and do you are you familiar with um Mike wardian um that the American runner he’s he’s not um I think he might be just on 50 and he is in amazing shape for for
His age and I shouldn’t really say that but it is it it sort of is you know for for how old he is but also the type of Runner he is as well um gum because he is he’s very he seems very resilient with a high training load and I don’t
Know that very many people are actually yeah yeah that’s true some people are uh incredibly strong and uh uh never injured and some people are always injured and it’s a part of the mystery I guess of training this is of course if you if you
Want to be good the first thing is to keep training so being rilian to to injur is is is fundamental of course yeah completely and I definitely want to delve into some of the factors which um help make us resilient as Ultra Runners first of course because we are on Elite
Runners resiliency and um huge workloads Court need to water and in her most recent Triple Crown I’m super Keen to get your thoughts on that given of course your close relationship with Solomon in their um Zone High program that you’re now running yes um well I’m I can’t I can’t
Tell I’m very close to clne uh have been meeting her a couple of time during the during the year and during training camps Etc uh super nice person uh that’s for sure uh but uh her training is uh like she she’s her own coach she doesn’t
Have a coach and uh she she’s not re interested in scientific support and you know she’s uh she l loves to run uh like like she she feels she must run and uh doesn’t have much of a plan as she keep saying but I think this is the the truth
Um that being said I’m I’m as everyone I guess super impressed by by what she has done uh of course as uh in charge of the scientific support of the of the team I was uh super anxious about her being injured after during heavy year uh I
Didn’t happen I know that she is now taking some very uh good rest uh so hopefully she will let her body recover after this crazy year um but yeah it was obvious from the the UTMB that that was a tough one I mean uh what she has done
Uh the western state and Hardrock was probably the most difficult part well on paper at least because uh she had only three weeks of recovery uh but uh yeah and but it was I was able to tell I mean not I was not the only one but uh uh
Seeing her running and struggling at UTMB uh really shows how hard it was um I mean it was obvious that she didn’t recover she was not at UTMB at her normal level and of course I guess we can understand based on everything she has done this year uh but it was uh yeah
UTMB I think has been very tough for her um but yeah this is this is just very impressive and I’m glad she succeeded but I hope she won’t do that every year because she she’s still a human right and I mean she’s so so good it will be
Too bad that she she gets injured so but she did she did it and that’s the main thing yeah that’s amazing and it’s that you know I um have seen and as I understand with sort of training it it’s you know the training is one part of it
But the allowing the body to recover to absorb the training to then be able to train harder and be resilient to that is is super important and I suppose we’ve all got our own sort of levels of how much recovery we need in order to um become fitter as opposed to continue to
Stress the body and then lead to injury I suppose yeah I think the body can do a lot uh provided you let him recover and uh recover is not one week of recover every every year it’s it’s several weeks or if not several months and at least
Several months out of running and the the best trance athletes uh in particular kilan and franceen they are both heavy skiers in Winter and I think it makes the difference like if you if you’re off running for many months uh every year I think this is the key to to
Last uh many years and this is what what they do and I think it’s a it’s a good example and K he’s also a skier so I think she also I’m not 100% sure about exactly how many weeks of skiing she does etc but uh she’s also a skier and
Lot of uh ultraendurance Runners are actually skiers either skimo or cross country skiing and if you are not living in a mountain region then you can mountain bike or do cycling Etc but this is this is very very important to be off running for many months in my opinion if
You want to last several years if you want to have a long career because we’ve seen particularly in women for some reason uh like super good athletes uh doing a couple of seasons and then we don’t see them again yeah that’s a real shame and it’s um um I was actually
Thinking about there was a movie it was I don’t know maybe five or 10 years maybe five or seven years ago and it was the unbreakables and it I think Kellan might have been in it and there were like maybe three other Runners and they appeared to have the seasons of their
Career like they were just super fit they were running all of the time and as a um as a I’m not going to say recreational Runner because I do not like that term because I think we all take our running as seriously as you
Know as we do um but as a i as a non-elite runner there you go um I was watching it and I part of me felt really envious that I didn’t have the ability to continue to push the way that I saw the Runners push in that movie
Subsequently when I went and Googled them afterwards I saw that three out of the four um experienced what they called burnout and um then had either several seasons off to sort of regroup or even just sort of leave the sport all together which is a real shame actually
Yeah no that’s true so that’s why you need to truly recover again many many weeks or even months um at least of training uh but I I believe it should be off training at all for several weeks like more for the mthal aspects and of course you cannot there is also a
Compromise to find because if you’re uh recovering or stopping training for too many for too long time then yeah you of course your level of Fitness decreases uh immediately I mean from the first day of course uh and so it’s sometimes difficult to to regain this Fitness
Level and uh especially if you gain weight Etc but um yeah on the long term I think it’s still it’s still very useful and actually mandatory comp yeah g is there is some sort of formula with which um for every kilometer or mile that you race that you
Should have X number of days off like do you buy into that kind of formula or is that just something I’ve read in Runners World which doesn’t really hold true no I don’t think there is any uh scientific BAS for that but some some people are saying yeah if you’re on an
Ultra for every 10K you should have one day of of rest um it seems a reasonable approach um yeah and again you must differentiate the total rest and rest uh without running uh because you do a like one hour or two hours easy cycling run
Um ride I think that’s that’s okay um if you just want to be in the nature enjoy have fun it’s probably okay as long as you really don’t push and you not you don’t you don’t run G can we just have a little bit of your sort of background
Like was your interest in fatigue and endurance Performance Based on your own um sort of background with running or or how did it come about for you uh I would say both uh I think it was the uh bit of an opportunity to do a
PD on this topic and of course my my interest uh in urance sports since I’m very little very young um because I’ve been cross country SK and then urance Adventure Race uh athletes and then uh Trail and Ultra Trail Runner uh so there was an opportunity to work I did my PhD
On a it was not fatigue actually during my PhD was more energy cost of uh running and cross country skiing but I had the chance to find a supervisor uh or two supervisors who were interested in the sport and let me by then I was uh
It’s not like that anymore in my lab but they were I was able basically to choose on which topic I wanted to work so I had this I was very lucky uh and then when I got my first position it was a lab with that there was a huge expertise in
Neuromuscular function and then I decided to specialize in neuromuscular fatigue and uh and then appli that to first like classic Sports and then Ultra and then it was uh there was not much by then uh so I decided to to to dig further in this in this topic um and
Then so I did that for the first 10 years of my career was mainly on athletes and urance athletes and people going at altitude Etc like extreme exercise and then I started to work on patience and as you said at the very beginning I’m more more working on
Fatigue in patients so yeah my career has been almost entirely dedicated to fatigue uh initially mainly athletes and know both mainly patients even though I try to to to still work on on running and and extreme fatigue and I think the two aspects of fatigue can uh can almost
Um help each other in the sense that we do with aate can help patients and vice versa sometimes yeah I imagine a lot of the same Concepts or things that you’re looking at or measuring would transfer over um but just on a different level or
In in a different um context am I would I be right about that yes and for inst there are some training techniques or method that we use with athletes that we there is no reason that we don’t use that with patients of course we just need to adap the the workload and the
Type of uh workouts but um there are again if it’s efficient for athlete there is no reason that it doesn’t work with patients and this is what we try to do using some techniques like interal training or Electro stimulation Etc um yeah so I think it’s
It’s still important to to to work on athletes at least it’s not I mean it’s not mandatory you can of course Focus only on clinical work but I don’t think it’s a it’s a it’s an issue I think it’s an asset actually yeah no that I agree
Um if you don’t mind can we spend some time talking about neuromuscular fatigue your flush model which I believe you published in maybe 2011 so it was that’s like 12 years ago now um can we talk through some of the major Concepts around that and how that sort of applies
To Performance and fatigue for the in the ultra Runner sure um so neurovascular fatigue and the flush model are not the same thing um so I actually uh decided to publish this flush model uh because I I was convinced that neuromuscular fatigue is important but of course cannot explain everything
So it’s important to understand ntic or maybe we can we can work uh we can uh talk about that first and then I will the the limitation of this uh of this type of work so yeah when when you so neurosc can be defined as a decrease of
Functional capacities of an athlete well actually of a person not only an athlete course so either you earn a marathon ultr Marathon or some for some people you just walk to the grocery store then you may get some uh experience of a functional State decline anyway so in
Athletes uh we usually measure the maximal for or maximal power uh before and after race for instance and uh then you can tell yeah on the quisps there is a x% decline in maximal force and this is a good definition of neuromuscular fatigue that actually more and more people call that fatigability or
Performance fatigability whatc fatigue it’s a it’s a synonyms if you wish uh anyway and then yeah so you have this x% decrease let’s say for instance after race like a UTMB you have a 40% in average 40% decline uh of the maximum strength of your Corps and then we try
To explain using different techniques um in particular Electro stimulation or even trans chronal magnetic stimulation when we apply magnetic field to the motor cortex we try to understand whether the fatigue uh comes from the muscles or from the neural system or the it’s not only the brain it’s the nervous
System and um yeah so for instance uh we have been uh consistently showing that the for Ultra uh urance events in particular in running uh there is a huge Central component so Central component is the component located at the neural system uh level and uh there is still some muscle fatigue or peripheral
Fatigue but much lower and if you do more intense shorter exercise this is the other way around you have more peripheral fatigue and less Central fatigue and there is we’ve published a paper recently showing that if you do the exact same exercise in running and cycling then the part of the central
Versus peripheral fatigue also changes uh you have in running you have more Central fatigue and in cycling you have more uh peripheral fatigue muscle fatigue showing that it’s not uh it’s not the central fatigue component is is not uh totally in the brain it’s actually uh coming from what is
Happening at the periphery so this is why it’s so complex because it’s uh the central fatigue is the inability of the the brain the neural system to to drive to contract the muscles uh but part of the this decline so this inability to contract the muscle can come from the
Muscles themselves so it’s not it’s not all in the brain and uh by comparing cycling and running I think it was a good evidence of that because of course everything in terms of neurotransmitter Etc because it was the same duration and the same intensity there is no reason
That it’s uh very different between the two sports uh but what is happening at the periphery because of of the contraction mode concentric in cycling and the plyometric in running uh Pro the effects on the on the muscle and the the sensors in the muscle is is very
Different anyway so this is the neuromuscular fatigue so the the the importance of the central component versus peripheral compon component depend on many aspects actually so I deed the duration and intensity the the sports or the type of contraction but there are other other factors for
Instance if you’re in the Heat or at altitude the central component can be also increased Etc so there are many factors that uh impact the both the amplitude of neuromuscular fatic so how much decline you experience in terms of maximum strength but also what we call Theology of neurovascular ftig so
Particularly whether this is more Central versus peripheral okay um and yeah so once you have shown that yeah for inst after UTMB you have a 40% decline of your maximum strength um yeah then you can you’re happy you’re you you’ve uh it was it was interesting but
Then I was like yeah but that cannot explain performance I mean even if you if you decrease uh your maximum strength by 40% you still have 60% and 60% of your maximum strength this is uh this is still a lot and uh you can run at a very
Decent speed with only 60% so it’s obvious that the limitation and of course I was not the the first one to talk about that I’m 100% sure you’ve heard about team no and the the Govern model so um it’s it was obvious that yeah with 60% you can we can run much
Faster than what most people do including the best trance athletes run at the end of an ultra so there must be something else and this is why I decided to work on this more integrative uh model the flush model that we were talking about to try to explain performance and limitation during anur
Endurance and urance event so the flush model sorry I’m a bit long no no no I like it it’s good you’re explaining it really well thank you so the flush model um well as the the name can tell is uh of course based on the flush to uh so basically so
The I think most people agree now that’s the the real determinant of performance during during a endurance uh event or trance event even more new trance event is the perceived exertion the perceived effort so you really need to do everything you you can to minimize that
And I was like okay so let’s try to represent that in a plain way in a simple way and thought that the flush the flush toilet was was a very good uh model so in in the in the in the model the the perceived effort is the level of
Water in the tank okay and so so this is so the tank and then you have of course you can fill uh this tank uh with water and this is what is happening when you start rainning so okay you are not necessarily starting with a empty tank
And this is part of the the model because of course if you start with an empty tank this is better it means that you perceive the for is is very low at the beginning and this is you need to do everything you you can to to to reach
That before the rest and then when you start running of course the level of water starts to increase your rating of paf exertion starts to increase uh even if you run at the same speed uh of course if you increase the the speed it changes but if you run at the same so
For a given speed uh with time you have a slight increase in this the water and of course you can flush the toilet when you rest uh or you sleep but uh so this is another component of the model and the the fourth component that is very important is that you usually stop
Exercise uh before you die I guess you will agree with that yes so there is what I call the security reserve and the size of this so and this is also why a flush toilet was a good model because you have this sensor to that uh um stops
The water coming St exactly and so there is this uh sensor this ball um to to stop the water coming and we have the same thing in our brain I mean when we feel like it’s we it’s going to be too much we are overfill we we either
Decline the speed or we we stop stop training so that we are not going too far uh and the size of this security Reserve can be uh Changed by mainly by motivation uh from probably also by some mtal training so the yeah so this flush
Model I think is a is a very good combo of everything that can happen during during a race uh the the role that mental training can have the nutrition can have uh the uh Before the Race for instance or during the race can can have
As well for instance if you if you start race with some sleep deficits or some uh cogn load montal load for some reason you had issues in your life in the month work or uh issues with your wife or your husband or your kids or you at
Work etc then when you start running you have already some uh some water in the tank and of course uh it means that you don’t have much room to to reach your security Reserve so you will have to decline your speed earlier during the race and that that explain why it’s so
Important to be very well mentally rested when you when you start R so anyway so it was well I thought it was fun of course to have a model about the flush toilet but uh sure it was not it was not only for fun I I I thought um of
Course I cannot tell whether it was a good idea or not but I I thought it was a good idea to no I think it illustrates it really well actually and I and I I liked it on your website how you’ve got it sort of all all laid out um few
Things um with that one I think athletes probably now are more aware of outside stresses impacting on their ability to rest and taper before a race right so if if you have the luxury then it would say to me that it would be a good idea to
Try and um offload some of your other external responsibilities so you are more relaxed sort of and rested going into going into a a big run oh yeah I fully agree and I think it’s still uh as you say it’s probably it’s already coming but it’s still underestimated
Like there are still many people uh so of course there is this uh for instance work uh workload that you have to do uh at your job but uh also some uh so yeah if you can uh postpone some important meetings or stuff like that after the
Race I think it’s it’s it’s a very good idea uh of course you need to make sure that you you sleep as much as possible so we have published a couple papers of about what we call Sleep banking uh so maybe we can talk about that later um
But yeah I fully agree with you that some PE some people start to consider this aspect uh but not everyone I’m pretty I’m pretty sure that for instance some people are still uh preparing their uh racing stuff in the week before the race so that they are still doing that
Uh during the evening and they are stressed because they they are missing a pair of uh socks or whatever and then this is a lot of anxiety because yeah they feel like yeah won’t be ready for the rest so I really need to to run everywhere to make sure that I get my
Stuff and this should be done uh at least two weeks before the rest so that the last week you should really uh focus on your uh recovery and tapering and uh and sleep I agree and as you were saying you know the people that run around in that last day getting everything
Organized I mean that is so me um or I rely on my husband to do the organizing for me um and the Sleep banking is an is an interesting one too because often I don’t necessarily get great sleep the Night Before the Race and I think that
Is quite um usual for a lot of people um what what kind what did what did your research show with the Sleep banking um gum like what kind of sort of what kind of time are we are we sort of talking here what are some of the recommendations so the slim banking
Studies uh have been mostly done over a week of uh sleep banking uh sleep bation so uh so the if we talk about the study from r or our studies with the one of my student Pi caral so it was a week of sleep banking so meaning uh uh at least
For us it was going to bed uh 2 hours uh before the usual uh bedtime for two hours earlier every night for six nights before a sleep deprivation episode and this is usually the model that is used and I think this is this should be this should be enough for
Runner so uh there is no need to uh accumulate sleep for a month before the race but a week I think seems a reasonable uh reasonable duration um and so it can be done this sleep accumulation can be done by going to bed earlier or by taking naps or both
Um and if you do that even so the the the Night Before the Race you are a bit stress so it’s it’s totally normal that you are so anxious about uh doing a good race that you may not sleep as as um well as uh usually uh it’s okay as long
As you have accumulated sleep during the the week before and there are still um techniques that you can use to to relax like breathing techniques and stuff like that or meditation or whatever that you can use to to sleep including the night uh before the Before
The Race uh but again even if you’re not succeeding and you’re you don’t have a very good night the the the Night Before the Race it’s it’s probably it’s probably okay as long as you have accumulated sleep again uh the week but if you are if you are not doing that and
You have uh and even if you have a good night of sleep the the the night before uh I think this is not enough you one night of sleep is not enough to to uh uh to uh completely cancel the Sleep deficit that you may have in the the
Week before the race so yeah very very important aspect uh underestimated I think by many Runners of course every every everyone is like yeah I I need to sleep well but they I’m not 100% sure that they do everything they can to to Really accumulate sleep yeah yeah that’s
Such a good point as well because most people are like right I’ll just get a really good night’s sleep the two nights leading into the race thinking that it’s completely within their control but it’s so hard to do that when you’re in a different environment potentially and traveling around and stimulated by the
By like registration and and all the rest of it it’s very um yeah it’s not conducive to relaxing and and getting sort of I don’t know feeling more relaxed and like you’re ready for it especially if you have to travel I’m not even talking about jet lag it’s a
Different story not everyone is a professional athlete so you cannot go there 10 days like if you’re coming from New Zealand for instance in France you cannot not everyone can afford taking two weeks to make sure that jet lag is is is okay but um but even without
Talking about jet lag yeah there are there are many things that you can do to make sure that you have a good sleep before the uh the night the the week before the race and it’s not actually only true for trathan because we are talking about the effect the positive
Effect that we and others have shown on both the cognitive function but also actually the physical uh performance uh on uh during a sleep depr so it was not a neutron model but it was a exercise associated with sleep deprivation um so we still have to
Conduct a stud a real study uh in the field to to show the the benefit of sleep extension or sleep banking uh on marath and performance but uh anyway so there were there was still this component of sleep deprivation in in the study I was I’m talking about but this
Is I’m pretty convinced that this is even true if you’re running a like a marathon for instance or even a half marathon like if it’s like very intense very short uh discipline such as a long jump or Sprint it’s probably not as important but as long as there is an
Urance component in your sport it doesn’t have to be a utral with sleep deprivation during the race even if it’s a like normal uh endurance race sleep accumulation can be beneficial yeah no that makes that makes perfect sense and then what about sort of during the race
If we’re thinking about an ultra and we’re talking about how the water sort of accumulates over time in the Basin yet things can help sort of slow that down like what impact does nutrition and hydration play on that sort of fatigue ability in in Ultra like what kind what
Do we know about that well of course if you have not an optimal nutrition while nutrition can par roll in two in two aspects so the main one is uh very important and it’s like the your Fitness level your training status if you don’t have a good nutrition or if you don’t
Have a good training it means that you’re when you start running at a given speed uh your muscle fibers will start to fatigue earlier than if you have a good nutrition and a good F uh sorry training State uh and then it means that you will have to recruit uh more um
Other muscle fibers and there there is what what we call the fit forward mechanisms meaning that that that explain actually part of the of the perceived exertion increase uh during the race so of course if you don’t have an optimal nutrition this will directly impact this plus if you are going for
Stance uh if you’re uh under fuel Etc uh you may also have some uh so you will probably raise at a too high intensity and you have also signal coming from your from your muscles uh so this is uh so the first the first mechanisms I were talking was the Feit forward mechanisms
And here we are talking about feedback mechanisms and both probably contributes to the to the increase of perceived exertion to the increase of water in the tank during during the race uh this is and and this is of course very important uh so yeah nutrition is again nutrition
Cannot well except if it’s a real hypoglycemia so that’s a different story but nutrition is important important and it’s part of the model uh because again it will impact the the speed at which the level of water will increase okay the second aspect is and I’m sure you’re
Very familiar uh with this work um the the and the mouth rining work so if you if you only take a uh energy drink sweet drink in your it’s not sweet because if it’s a as spam for instance it doesn’t work it has to be real with sugar but
You you don’t ingest this uh those carbohydrates uh so just moening and then you speed the the liquid then Studies have shown that you will actually uh improve your performance and probably because you have this uh feeling that something um that the carbohydrate are coming even so they are
Not actually um and then uh this will probably uh also impact your level of watero because it will decrease your perceived exertion so this is it’s not of course as uh impactful as the real nutrition but this is another aspect where uh nutrition can also play a role
Do you think that there’s um utility in using that if someone’s got GI issues so if they can’t if their stomach is really upset they can’t actually take on board any nutrition because you hear that all the time like people get in trouble and they just end up vomiting out for omers
Like do you think that the carab raning actually could be helpful in that instance um it’s a a it’s a good it’s a good question uh first I don’t think if it if it works and I think it works there are even so there are studies uh
That are like not 100% of the studies agreed on on on that but I would say most uh are saying that this is beneficial but the impact is not uh is not that big it’s still it’s still beneficial I think so if whether or not you you can do that um maybe because
Yeah in theory it should it should improve improve your performance even slightly but still uh however I’m not even sure that you if you are in the state that you are describing with a heavy uh intense gastrointestinal uh disorders like just having this in in your mouth May reinforce your your yeah
You know this this feeling so I’m not uh I don’t know and I don’t think anybody knows yeah yeah interesting so so cuz I I generally when I chat to people about about GI issues my general um recommendations is to back off the intensity back off the nutrition and
Wait for things to settle down and then typically speaking during a long event you will always have these highs and lows of how you feel so and then just you know you’ll get and just know that you’ll get through that and then you’ll be able to start taking stuff on board
That’s generally what I would say is that what do you think about that advice good yeah yeah no I I I think it’s exactly what uh one should do try to uh reduce intensity uh drink water um if possible and then uh slowly restart uh fueling again there are um like um
Things like uh drinking Coke uh Coke can Coca-Cola can can help uh um and try to switch to different uh different uh uh food um and of course the best thing is to try to avoid that so and a good as you know a good way to do that is to is
Really to switch from different foods Some solid and liquid salty and sweet etc etc but it’s even if you do that it can happen and I think your recommendation is totally right and uh keep in mind that uh it can really uh go better uh because if you have not
Experience that you feel like no how how can it be better it’s it’s impossible I’m feeling so bad uh at the moment that it cannot cannot come back again and uh think about I was talking about Ludo pom Ludovic pom so the French Ultra owner
Who was uh again fifth this year at UTMB as I said at the age of 48 but when he won UTMB a couple of years ago he was I cannot tell you exactly but because of GI disorders he was he was like very far uh after maybe 50k and he was able to
Come back and actually win the race win the UTM so yeah amazing this example shows that it’s definitively possible yeah and I think it really speaks to like the Art and Science of endurance sport right because we have all of this scientific knowledge but sometimes you just don’t know what’s going to happen
On the day and so having as an athlete cuz I think about this my myself like I want to have a couple of different plans for if things don’t go to plan so I then have confidence that it’s going to be okay because I think part of it is that
When things don’t go the way that you anticipate you can sort of panic a little bit which must um fill that tank up a little bit more with that distress that occurs when when things don’t go according to plan yeah yeah I agree and um and it’s it’s a good thing to know
And so to give example like like the example that I just provided about but it’s even better if you have experienced that yourself and it’s it’s a good thing about uh uh being also a runner yourself because you can you can tell your athlete yeah I can tell you that uh uh
This Runner and this happened in the past and uh he was or she was not feeling well and then it came back Etc but if you have experience that yourself and it happened to me a couple of times in particular I remember my second UTMB
When I did my best performance at UTMB I was really feeling bad after two3 of the race yeah and then I was like I was saying to my crew okay I’m going to the next station but I’m Pro and yeah I don’t want to give up now but I will
Probably be done at the next station so please go there and and wait for me I will probably stop there and then I was um C by a runner Antoine G and then I decided to try to uh to to follow him and of the student for some reason I’m
Not even really able to explain why I started to feel better and at the end I played fourth at the UTMB and I was my so yeah and I was like feeling so bad so once you have experienced that yourself you can be confident and tell your
Athlete yeah this is this is possible of course it’s not 100% of the time that it will come back but it it definitively happens and having this experience uh can um yeah uh make make you confident when you you tell others that yeah this is this is the truth this is I’m not
Only telling that to motivate you this is the reality yeah and that’s oh totally what an experience um what about um ketones now have you seen have you been sort of across the research looking at the the potential for improved cognition with ketones and and do you think that there another Avenue for
Athletes to trial in terms of improved um sort of mental fatigue ability um well first I’m not an expert in nutrition and I know I haven’t done like a specific research on on ketones uh in my in my book I have a a paragraph I mean a section on on Ketone uh but
Actually I was not the one writing this this uh this section however uh I I’m not sure again I’m not an expert so I may be wrong but I’m not 100% sure that we have enough evidence to to strongly recommend ketones diet uh in the trance
And of course as you know better than I do if there is a spot where ketones can work this is ultra uh for sure we know it doesn’t work for shorter more intense exercises but even for trance Runners I’m not 100% sure that uh this is something I would recommend so maybe if
We have someone like uh uh we were talking about GI distress uh so who has done everything he or she can to improve and it was still not not there maybe this is an Avenue that can help the athletes uh but if you have a like
Um if you don’t have any major issues with that um I I’m not convinced that we should really push an athlete to do this ketogenic diet and then the effect on mental fatigue sorry I don’t I don’t know the literature to yeah no no that’s fine and they’ve um
There’ve just been trials that have just sort of utilized ketones outside of the actual diet um so they’ve just sort of put them on rather than having people okay sorry sorry okay I thought you were talking About I misund yeah I no and again not so Ketone supplementation I don’t know the literature about that and the mtal so mental fatigue um so it depends also on what you call M malal fatigue because if you have an effect on cognitive function
Uh it can be helpful but this is not the main thing in Ultra right you you not supposed to think too too heavily during during a race uh so we to see the effect on perceived exertion can can Kone supplementation help reduce the level of fortun in the tank this is the question
And I don’t have the answer yeah yeah no no good good um and actually I wonder with a lot of that um because it is to do with the rate of perceived exerion like that’s so because it is perception like you could do a number of things
Which might not necessarily Stack Up in terms of science but if it makes you feel like you’re going a little bit faster or you you’re a little bit more focused then I suppose that that could be a benefit yeah um yeah this is welln Placebo effect of course yeah yeah um
Gum how so your model when you first sort of designed it in 2011 like has it evolved like are there any changes now that you think yeah I could add this little bit to that model to further explain this or or has it sort of remained quite robust over the last 12
Years I guess uh every time I see new Publications I use them as a uh an evidence that yeah it fits the model pretty well and so uh no I can’t tell that the the model has uh changes has changed sry so much uh uh in the last 12
Years uh I think um most of this so when I explain the model and I uh and I explain why I think this is this is a good model I can use uh new studies because of course the studies are are keep being published but uh no I can
Tell the model has really changed I mean I’ve changed my mind on several aspects such as uh for in I remember for the first edition of my book I was uh saying because I think by then it was the what people were thinking that you cannot improve improve sorry the the the amount
Of uh carbohydrate that you can um you can uh ingest in in one per hour and now yeah the the training your guts Studies have shown that this is this is wrong so I can I can U I change my mind on on on several topics but uh not directly
Related to the model I would say um trying to think about that now but I have I don’t know no examples where I was like yeah no this is uh I was saying that in the model and this has changed um not not much I think it’s it’s still
The model is still valid it’s good yeah yeah it’s great to have something so robust um now I did actually see um a paper that you um have published or an author on talking about the importance of V2 Max for ultra distance which some people might find surprising because you know it’s low
Intensity it’s hiking it’s endurance can you sort of describe the importance of V2 Max for for the ultra running yes so it’s a good it’s a good another good point a good question of course yeah when you run a V2 Max sorry when you run an ultra uh you’re such a
Low intensity as you said uh probably around uh well depending on which Ultra of course but uh between 4 40 and 60% of your V2 Max of course this is very very submaximal and and you’re right some people may say so yeah what’s the point of trying to improve your V2 Max well
The key is the in in this percentage actually uh because if you run at a given speed and you have a high view to Max of course the this speed will represent a much lower percentage of your view to Max and there are positive positive um consequences uh of that one
Is for instance we talking about ketones Etc one is the type of substrate that you will utilize yeah so if you are at a low as you know of course and most of your listeners I guess know if you at a lower percentage of U2 Max then you will
Rely uh mainly on lipids and if you at higher intensity you will rely on carbohydrates and of course you want to to use your um your fat uh to to provide energy as much as you can so this is one one example um so yeah it’s it’s still
Very important to have a good V to Max um uh that being said and I think the the best example is kilan jonet we we know that he had super good view to Max um and uh it definitively helps him to be a a good a good earner of course this
Is not enough obviously there is no need to say that there are many parameters many factors of performance in utra urance as in Old Sports uh but in utra it’s probably even more true than in other sport because it’s so complex you have so so many um factors that can play
Role that it’s uh it’s very very complex anyway um so yeah I really believe that V2 Max is still an important factor of performance in uh in Ultra yeah what this paper show um actually we published a couple of papers I’m not sure which one you’re talking about but uh we uh we
Did a study uh at UTMB again where we uh analyze the uh well V2 Max and other physiological factors of of for runners doing the what we call the short distance which was the the two shortest distance of UTMB basically 40 to 55k then the CCC which is 100k and then
The longest one TDS and UTMB so 145 and and plus and then we try to corate the V2 Max with performance for the different distances and what we showed is that yeah the the longer the distance the less important is V to Max so in so
So and there are other studies that have shown correlation for instance between vew to Max and performance for short distance and not long distance uh so some Studies have shown no correlation between V2 maximum performance in ultra um but so and we have shown the same and
We have shown Ural ation between V2 Max and the performance at UTMB so the summary of that is that V2 Max is still an important factor uh for performance in Ultra but less than in shorter distances and um at the end of the day the message is yeah you still need to
Train your vew to Max we know that training cannot improve um uh hugely your vew to Max it’s it’s mainly genetics uh but still you still need to do your best to to improve your V2 Max and then after a couple of years there is no way you can further improve your
V2 Max but you still need to train it to avoid that it it decreases too much especially with h so there is still a need to do a intense exercise even so you are an ultra however if you if you don’t have a super good V to Max then running Ultras
Could be a good idea because since the impact is less than shorter distances you can you have a better chance to be a good runner a good if you don’t have a super good view to Max and if you are not lucky with the lottery
Of okay so so that’s good to know so if with because I’m thinking so right now um G your mom I’m training for Marathon very sort of quick build quick build before I then train for move on to train for tataa 100k here in New Zealand which
Is which is in which is sort of a 12 weeks so with the timing of my training with my Marathon um like I’m doing quite a bit of shorter harder stuff which should theoretically is sort of V2 max type training is it a good time to sort
Of train that stuff now before leading into my sort of longer hiking running type stuff what do you think yeah yeah I think it’s reasonable then the question is okay should you when should you stop training or at least decrease the amount of training doing inter training and so
Trying to prain your view to Max um yeah I think uh then there is the development phase when you need to do uh for instance two sessions per week and this is usually uh early in the season and then you maintain that by doing a maybe a session every other week or doing
Short doing short races uh sometimes you can also participate to Shorter races um so yeah and then of course we need to uh to probably to discuss in more details about your training plan but but this is not the P I do not want to do that generally speaking I think it’s it’s
Okay yeah okay now that is awesome um now it’s like I also actually saw a paper that you you looked at looking at Elite versus non-elite Trail Runners which was kind of great because the sport has seemed to have exploded over the last few years um so are there so
Where can people who like age groupers we should they I don’t know like broadly speaking I know everyone is different but what elements should we need to look at to help improve our performance sort of based on the differences between the elite and the age group athletes would
You say well in in the paper you are mentioning and I can tell that you you read the literature very well so thank you for citing so so many of my papers youve done your work you are homework uh we didn’t uh investigate get all factors of performance when we
Compared Elite versus non Elite and actually in another paper uh maybe that was your next point we also compared word Runners versus TR runners in in Elite in French national team both Marathon uh French national team and TR running team anyway so the question was
Elite versus Sub non elit and so in this paper we did not for instance we did not investigate V to Max uh or endurance so we focused on the actually the nmos club function and the energy cost of running and what we found is that uh energy cost
Of running uh so it cannot directly answer your your question which is much broader than than just what we we did still so we I think we added the uh so we had a step further in the the comparison between Elite and non- elit and what we found is that energy cost is
Actually uh better in Elite than on Elites so we know that yeah lower better mean lower um when you’re an elite trer you spend less energy than non Elites and again it could be a uh genetics or or not gen due to training and in V2
Max I think the genetic part is more important in energy cost I think the training component is more important so it’s probably simply due to the fact that they are training more and if you train more then you will simply by training more you increase your energy
Cost of raining and uh this is uh this is of course one factor of performance I don’t think it’s as important as on road running and uh as in short distance so we are talking about the the relative contribution of V2 Max in performance so
In uh so V2 Max is not as important on short distance and I would say the same that energy cost cost is not as important in Ultra as it is in short distances so what is more important is the endurance component of course you need to be able to resist to the decline
Of speed with with time so the endurance the endurance aspect uh is is very important in utra but V to Max and energy cost are still important but not as much as on shorter distances in in my opinion not everyone agrees with that but this is this is what I think so yeah
So you can improve you can improve uh energy cost meaning decrease your energy cost by training and there are also ways to improve that is strength training resistance training you do plyometric or even heavy resistance raining is a good way to also minimize your energy cost of running again I think it’s more
Important for like Marathon or half marathon 10K than yeah okay that’s good especially especially TR running ultra running okay no that’s good to know I really I enjoy strength training I really hate petrics like with a passion it takes a lot of discipline for me to
Do it um uh so anyway uh so um finally um G cuz I I I know that you know we’re almost up on an hour um I was excited to see that you this year you’re working with Solomon and they’ve got to really they appear to be very focused on um and
As they always are of course but you know the real sort of science side of of running and and providing these services for their athletes um what are you hoping to do with the athletes at Salomon it’s a good uh good point so it’s not to talk about another podcast uh because I
Know but yeah yeah yeah yeah so we did with with Chas and C we did a podcast entirely dedicated to that so if people want to more about the program they can they can probably uh listen this uh podcast uh anyway so to answer your your
Question so the idea was to really to to try to provide uh the like all the that the athletes need uh for performance so um uh of course for many years Salomon had a team uh and and probably one of the best to not say the best uh Team
Especially in utra but even in short distance as since we have REM Bonet for instance anyway and uh and of course the support that they provided was uh amazing in terms of equipment uh for many years now and now they wanted to um to to provide uh something else than
Than just uh equipment and biomechanical analysis and all the work that they can do with the scientist at Salomon um so this is why they decided to launch this uh this program so which is based on a network of experts and I’m I’m leading the program but of course I’m not the
Only one involved I’m just coordinating the different experts uh when there is a need for an athlete to to work on on different aspects of performance um and as I explained in in cp’s um uh podcast uh it’s uh it’s difficult to um to how can I say that to
Uh involve the athletes in this support I mean the in theory you may think okay so they they are going to be super happy and they they were actually uh but they they knew that uh there will be a support there were most of them were
Actually not all of them some of them are not interested at all by the scientific aspect and it’s totally fair I respect that but most of them were yeah this is this is cool uh this is a plus for us Etc but then when the moment
Came that uh the uh I I could help uh we did many things during the year so it’s it’s definitively a plus but I was hoping actually to do more and so uh I believe First that it takes time to change their mind uh and make them
Having a more rational approach uh when I say them it’s not only the athletes it is the athlete and their coach uh again most of the coaches are are interested or very keen or interested but then I mean it’s true for again for the athlet and the coaches they have uh their
Routine they have uh they all everyone has a super busy schedule and if you want to to implement and things it takes time and so you have to make a choice sometimes between uh uh training and testing between uh resting and uh getting more out of a program such as
The s2a program Etc so it’s um it’s not as easy as it may seem uh again we have done uh quite a few things uh in terms of testing advice etc for and I cannot of course reveal everything I have to to some some things are actually everything is a secret
Confidential um but um yeah it’s um um I hope that we can um I know that we can do more and I hope we can more in the future uh and it it takes time uh I mean there are Elite athletes if they are in
The team it means that they are here for a reason uh so they are among the best uh which in my opinion doesn’t mean that they cannot further improve yes and science sence science is definitively not the the only way to improve performance but this is one Avenue among other Avenue and I
Think it’s a for some athletes it can really make a difference for others maybe less but everyone can uh uh benefit in my opinion from this program um yeah so we need to keep working uh maybe make them more confident about the program about what we can uh what we can
Do how we can improve the performance but it will hopefully it will come yeah and I feel like whatever lessons you learn over the next 5 or 10 years will I mean these are lessons which will transfer down to the age group athlete you know like if you can learn from the
Best regardless of their genetics you’re right there are still training techniques and ways to do things which can improve them which will you know when um when never embargo goes are lifted or when whenever you’re able to talk about things down the line I I feel like that would be beneficial for you
Know us um age group athletes as well and this is actually again I cannot reveal everything it’s also confidential but this is exactly what Salomon wants to do yeah they want to the program is not uh for now it’s mainly dedicated to Elite athletes but exactly what they want to
Do they want they hope to that this program will benefit to uh to their consumers uh to so lower level athletes and uh they also want to provide services to their to to to everyone in the future uh again this is a bit confidential but uh we will uh uh launch
Something very soon that will go in this direction so hopefully it will be very helpful for the runners that is awesome that is awesome G now just one final question um anything new in this sort of Realm of research and ultr Runners which you are super excited for
That we have to look out for on Pub mid or research gate or or anything anything in the pipelines yeah one thing I was surprised you didn’t ask anything about that is the sex differences I want I did want to actually it’s on my list but I saw the
Time are you yeah yeah can you oh yeah maybe maybe it could be another entire podcast because this is there are so many things to say and it’s it’s really too late to to start talking about that but this is a to answer your question this is something that is very exciting
This is something we have started to work on uh a couple of years ago uh actually many years ago now and uh we just had a PhD in the lab uh on on this specific topic uh then use big data to also try to understand better the the
Sex differences in in in running in endurance running so yeah this is something I I really want to to further investigate in the future very like how can we explain that uh some female urance aate are so good in ultra um so it’s not as simple as it may uh seem it
May seem um yeah I mean I don’t yeah I don’t know if I want to start talking about that because if I start it maybe another 20 minutes you know what it’s very exciting no I hear you g if you were happy to come and chat to me
Another time I would love to do an entire podcast and that would be amazing did you see that the the Berlin world record went last night um in the marathon and that that I was thinking that’s it’s a very impressive performance very impressive yeah yeah the Gap is closing um even though that’s
Ultra versus marathon it’s quite different sport um gum where can people find more about you and your research uh I have a personal website so maybe you can put the link in your your page so it’s K gu.com uh and there is the French and an English uh site so yeah your your
Listeners can find everything on the English Bo okay that is amazing thank you so much for your time this morning I certainly would love to um chat more in depth about the six differences cuz that definitely was on my list of things to to talk about um it will be too long but
Yeah another time it will be a pleasure and then thank you for the invitation thank you see you later have a lovely day bye-bye All right team hopefully you got something from that and I certainly did in the buildup to t wearer uh well hopefully 102 we’ll just see how this uh car holds up um but certainly he is a wealth of information and I’m really looking forward to discussing in more
Depth the sex differences in endurance athletes because that is going to be um such a fascinating conversation and next week on the podcast I speak to coach David methis all about reverse dieting and Health Restoration diets he’s a member of Team biolane great conversation there until then though
Don’t forget that you have 50% off my fixed term meal plans up until Friday so if you want to give yourself the gift of health or some you love then this is a perfect opportunity to do so I have my fat loss plan for women flow I have the
Man plan I have my 12we be awesome real food nutrition plan and I also have my 12we athlete plan available so make sure you check that out we will pop links in the show notes to that as well and of course you can DM me you also have the
Opportunity to defer starting until the dust is settled on New Year so don’t forget that uh catch me over on Facebook at Mickey Willen nutrition Twitter threads and Instagram @ Micky Wen or head to my website Mickey wen.com and pick yourself up at an awesome deal on my meal plans
All right team you have the best day see you [Applause] Later [Applause] oh