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Today on the podcast we have Sir Clive Woodward, Grand Slam winning international rugby player and British and Irish lion, accomplished businessman. He was England’s first professional rugby coach and led England to become 2003 World Championships in Australia, where Johnny Wilkinson kicked that iconic drop goal against the Aussies to clinch it for England.
He won 12 consecutive games against Southern Hemisphere sides, which was unheard of for a Northern Hemisphere side to do back in 2003, and I’m not sure if that will ever be repeated again. He was Director of Sport for Team GB at the Beijing 2008 Olympics and the London 2012 Olympics, and he’s now busy producing a high performance talent factory within British Snow Sport, with the aim of producing that first gold medalist for Team GB.
In this episode we’re of course going to talk about that iconic drop goal and what was going through Sir Clive’s head at the time, but we’re also going to focus on building elite performance tech teams, what it takes to win, and how to set and enforce high standards.
I hope you enjoy.
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Find Sir Clive:
https://www.clivewoodward.com/
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/sirclivewoodward
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https://www.linkedin.com/in/acceleratingexcellence/
https://www.instagram.com/jamesaking_/
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While the app is under development, we have decided to provide access to the full content for free on YouTube for a limited time. You can find the courses within our playlists or by the link below. I hope you enjoy.
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On today’s podcast we have slive Woodward Clive is a Grand Slam winning International player for England and a British and Irish lion he’s an incredibly accomplished businessman who went on to become the first professional rugby coach in England he famously LED England to become 2003 world champions beating the Australians in Australia he
Built the number one ranked team in the world at the time with 12 consecutive wins against the southern hemisphere Giants the All Blacks South Africa and Australia he then pivoted into a role as director of sport for teamgb at the Beijing 2008 and London 2012 Olympics and he’s currently busy producing a
British skiing Talent pipeline in search of that first teamgb gold medal in this episode we’re going to talk about that iconic moment Johnny sealed it against the Aussies in Melbourne to win the 2003 World Cup we’re going to talk about what it takes to build Elite Performance
Teams and crucially how to set and enforce high standards I hope you enjoy so Clive Woodward welcome to the accelerating Excellence podcast Thanks James and good morning to everyone look I’d love to get going with asking you you’ve had this incredible career in rugby and the first question I’d love to
Ask you is what was it that attracted you to the sport in the first place can you remember that moment the concept of rugby entered your world it’s is probably the complete opposite the um my kind of my My First Love and it really was a love was football right and I was
A complete football nut uh I can remember as a 10-year-old watching the World Cup Final in Wembley and soccer I can name that team so I was completely fo foot mad and what happened to me James my father was in the Roy Air Force
And I was like 11 or 12 years old and the head master of our our school I went to came to see him and said look you’re you’re your 12-y old’s quite bright um but he’s you know he could go University which you know those days was unheard of
In our family he said but he’s never going to make it because he just plays all his time playing football and my dad was in the Air Force and he could send me away and be paid by the Air Force for me to go away to a boarding school so
Without me knowing he chose and there’s lots of reasons why we chose a surrender school called hmes Conway a Merchant Navy boarding school and but quite simply I was sent there as a 12 or 13year old and they they played three Sports rugby rugby and rugby that was
The end of my football career I hated the school I made no bounds about it I was there from 13 to 18 I didn’t like rugby one little bit when I first started playing it but to survive at the school at most schools if you’re good at
Sport you kind of get by and you can imagine I mean I was obviously good at sport um but I was very good at sport so why your father would send you to a Merchant Navy boarding school which you’re going be sent off to see at some
Stage so I end ended up you know I ran away from school two or three times didn’t like school or because of football I didn’t mind being at at school don’t mind being away from my parents that was great in fact I just had to get on with it really so I
Started playing playing playing rugby and the rest is kind of History really and um so yeah my first off was football I kind of got thrown into rugby because that’s the only only sport that played at the school and I was obviously became quite good at it because I played SCM
Off and fly off and kind of moved on and the rest is rest is history I guess but it’s it’s kind of bit of an about loving rugby because I didn’t really okay so so you start playing rugby when was the first moment you sort of thought I’m
Really good at this because there’s playing rugby and then there’s achieving what you did in the game but when was that first moment you you or the people around you sort of recognized that Talent it wasn’t until I left school because the school was so backward we
Didn’t send boys to Tri or anything I was just this kid playing rugby at this school I was obviously pretty good I end up being Captain the team um and there only when I left school I took a year off before going to L University I
Worked down in London and no one ever heard of me I literally walked into harle quins I literally just walked in with the back I said can I can I play so I started training with har quins and you in 18 most people heard of an 18-year-old I didn’t play for England
Schools or World schools or anything we had no trials I went down harle Quinns and suddenly within literally three or four weeks I’m in the first team that went straight from nowhere imagine now going straight to harle quin’s first team that’s what I did and in those days
We played at Twickenham so we we have our home games not not the stoop game we actually played at the Twickenham stadium so I remember I was 18 years old I’ve been Hardin about a month we played against Cardiff and Gareth Edward was playing with Cardiff so I’m 18yar old
Played fly half no never heard of me as Gareth Edwood playing number nine who was Legend of course so that’s when I started thinking well this is quite fun actually I started to quite enjoy it and think actually I’m quite good at this and then when that that first year I
Played for England Colts because now everyone could see what I was doing I was playing for the game so that’s when I first kind of realized but I was one of the few people didn’t come through the system I was kind of just played this this rugby at school um and it’s
Still kind of a big you can probably tell it’s still part of me that um you know I had a big Fallout my parents about this we never really never really got on after this ever because you know I just said you can’t stop people doing what they really want to do
You know you just can’t especially with kids with my three kids they grown up have been really conscious about you know if this is what you really want to do I’m going to try and make it happen long within reason so you just got to support those things but harle quins was
Good I had a whole year at harle quins then went to L University under a great coach called Jim Greenwood and then my career really took off when I went when I went to University fantastic and then ultimately going on to play for England winning Grand Slams um was that as
Exponential as your rise as sort of you burst onto the scene with with Harley quins yeah that’s the same thing happened because I went to University I went to alra did my degree in sports science and also did a year in CED so I’m a fully qualified teacher in those
Days if you went to University unless it was Oxford Cambridge you didn’t play for your country so again that and looking back that was actually quite good because to actually play at University for those four years I captain left for side and it was a really good side and
We were fit and Jim green was one of the best coaches ever played under had a great Brook called to Total rugby so I learned a lot from Jim but then my first year out of University I played to Leicester and that year um I played for England went straight in the England
Team my first my first five games were Grand Slam so I just it just just really strange the whole career went went went like that so incredible and how old were you at that time I’d be 23 wow I was working for and also just to stress me
It was an amate game of course so I was I was working for Xerox and uh when I left University I a qualified teacher but I joined Xerox because you couldn’t really get the high high levels amate rugby player if you’re going to be a teacher where Xerox were able to kind of
Look after me basically and um you know it’s just really really you can’t stress to people I’d be playing for England at Twickenham 75,000 people on a Saturday afternoon against Wales live on BBC Bill McLaren the legendary commentator and on Monday morning I promise you I was in
The Rank Xerox sales officer giving my forecast invite how many how many photo copies I’m going to sell that week it’s just it’s hard to even imagine that W with modern sport the way it is now wasn’t that long ago it wasn’t too long ago but that that’s what it was and we
Would you know have a huge weekend in London get absolutely smashed with our oppositions have a huge night Saturday night and um but I was literally in you know and I was looking back now there’s a lot of you know I’d have loved to be a professional rugby player I’d have loved
It but we we couldn’t now today I I was playing with a Bricker a lawyer teachers you know just the whole team was amateur players my whole career was amate i’ played 21 times for England and that cover literally five years so I was in
The side for quite a long period of time so we didn’t we already play the Six Nations or five nations as as it was then but it it was an amateur game and you know I was working for a very professional company in ranked Xerox and a very amate organization called called
Rugby when I was playing for England incredible and Xerox what I mean where did that come from was it something you was SES something you identified yourself or was it something that was presented to you you know I was obviously a good player and I was
Playing at ler and I was Captain ler Lester Tigers wanted me to join them I went to see them and I said well you know I need a job and like all things in those days one of the um senior board members work for Xerox he was a big big
Big wig in the Xerox world so I met with this guy and he said well come and join Rank Xerox we’d love to have you be work in the Leicester office we’ll get you in a job in sales and marketing whatever it was if I join as a graduate
So no this was totally unplanned is GE just it was a job for rank zero and I ended up loving it it was xero were great for me I was there nearly sort of uh seven eight years with Xerox so it was just one of those things and you
Know I very much moved into the finance side which Xerox Finance but I could talk all the days about those those training but they kind of it’s just competitive what I loved about it you know you joke about how many photocopies you’re going to sell their whole success
Was based on being real comp kept competition in in the actual office and you wanted be be good at good at those things so I took it really seriously and did did pretty well out of it yeah it sounds like I mean is it fair to say that actually shaped your your approach
To Performance full stop exposure to that to that world yeah I think there’s there’s two things one there’s probably three things one one I think being um a qualified teacher should not be underestimated I mean coaching is teaching so not many people actually um you know from the sporting point of view
Go through this one year C Edge where you do a whole year teacher training basically so that that was key Xerox was then I went into Xerox for for eight years it was and yeah just really real com real comp um the competition was great within the office basically but it
Was just really good nature and it was all very very good and you know national league tables International League tables if you sold so many went on a trip to Bahamas and stuff I never even dreamt about before then but probably one of the biggest things is when I I
Went to Australia with with Xerox and when we came back from Australia I set up my own small Leasing and finance company based on the skills a little with Xerox finance that was was probably the biggest thing that I think people don’t understand with myself that was
The biggest learning when you run your own small Leasing and finance company I say small James it was like 10 people but you know you if if you don’t succeed you you lose your house school fees aren’t met so my my you know having a big multinational background with Xerox
Was really important but probably more important was running my own small leing and Finance Company where you do learn to manage people you learn to take risks you learn to manage upwards and all the stuff so when I took over the rugby team was really it was it was a small
Business instead of having 10 people I had 50 people but that skill set had learned through teaching through Xerox and a small small business mindset yeah I mean it always sounds like the perfect talent development environment for what you uh the role you went on to I guess
Uh excel in in terms of your academic background at lfra then the actual practical approach is the teaching and then again put it all to practice as a performer on a rugby pitch concurrently getting that exposure to a high performance corporate environment and then ultimately the skin in the game uh
In terms of running your own business and at what point did the um at what point did management sort of jump out at you um it didn’t me jump back I think I think it’s Xerox I mean the whole the whole kind of hierarchy you everyone’s got to go through the sales
Process which is great you got to do the hard yards all you want to get out of that I mean this was a tough tough job I mean my patch was live in Chesterfield and buckton I think there’s there’s more sheep in Chesterfield and buckton than people want to buy photocopies so it’s
It was kind of a tough patch that was my patch used do a huge amount of learning H but then the next SC can you be a sales manager can you then take over sales team so within two years I was managing a team in Leicester I say a
Team again about eight eight to nine people so within two years I kind of graduated from the sales role to the management role and then specialized in the finance side of Xerox which I really enjoyed because a lot of the products were sold through Finance plans so yeah
You start to manage people and and again the training the zerox gam was fantastic you know they were they still are a brilliant company but then I think they were one of the leading companies in terms of their not in their sales training but their leadership and
Management training was huge so we went down to place called Newport pagal for you know literally weeks on end at time doing sales so doing Management training so a lot of a lot of people James I think made the big mistake think this is all kind of instinctively born with this
I think something that you know you can learn and if you’re really passionate about it and you want to do well at it you can learn in your book for example you’re always learning from new new things so zerox really got me on the way
To that but it’s all not I say to my three kids always I’ve never planned my career it’s just kind of happened I’ve been dead lucky you it’s tend tend to gone in eight eight nine years Cycles but the time at Xerox was I think was fantastic on on the leadership and
Management training side alone and again nothing to do with sport this is pure business absolutely so and that’s where you had that first exposure to management of course and then the opportunity to manage uh in in sport I guess at that point was still amateur
Yeah but when I often say to people many people say to me you know I do certain am work in the corporate world and speaking stuff they say oh come on sport is different than business it’s it’s not um my definition of business is delivering results through people and I
Repeat that delivering results through people that’s what you do when you’re working with Xerox that’s what I do when a rugby coach you know I’m in charge of people you know and I’m one of the few people worked at that pretty high level in both you especially on on the rugby
Side and the Olympic side and you Del results with people it’s how you manage people how you lead people so all my business experience especially that small leasing finance company was priceless experience when you take out the rugby team you know and I I won’t name them but you’d know who they were
Are there’s been some really high-profile rugby players who failed badly in coaching purely because they’ve not gone through the experience of of of of teaching you know if I had one advice and they know their rug beaks have play for England the Lions they know their
Subject they just took a year out and did asserted a year teacher training go don’t because teaching is coaching coaching’s teaching there’s no difference whether you’re teaching kids whatever they took a year out and did that they’re all big successful at coaches because they didn’t do that they
Thought that the shortcut just I’m a great player does not make you a great coach just because you’re a great ranked Xerox salesman does not mean going to be a great leader the team or management there’s a different skill set which you got to learn and practice so I just got
You know this wasn’t kind of wasn’t kind of planned it just kind of happened then you know eventually G rugby goes professional and I I I guess as you said without being sort of too arrogant about it um my CV was as good as anyone’s in
Terms of ability to run a rugby team based on my business background which to be fair the guys that rfu didn’t really understand this either they you they knew me as a rugby player they didn’t know what I was doing at zero on way un leasing company they just thought I was
I was a rugby player they didn’t know where where i’ actually come from and that’s really interesting point isn’t it that you were probably selected for your ability in rugby despite the fact you’d had all that almost perfect preparation yeah the game of rugby were professional and England especially were caught with
The pants down you because it was just I literally was driving along to day on the radio rugby un gone professional I’m just what the hell is that mean we just gone professional who’s GNA you know and we got caught badly and that and we’ve took a long
Time to get over it um but you know it was it was it was just one one of those one of those things and it went went professional um I was um it was really strange because um I was coaching the England on 21 team as an amateur I was
Coaching a little local team called Henley as as an amateur I was doing that because I really when I try to help out so I was doing my coaching but Ren Leasing Company the same time it’s just like being a player but I was now coaching I was coaching the 21s and um
You know so I was no big name in coaching at all I fact I was a very small name in coach you I was an ex player played for England and the Lions um and then they they they interview I think they interviewed quite a few people they eventually came to see me
And said and this is absolutely true they came here to my house I think they’re a bit surprised so I’ve got a lovely house and I’ve been successful in business and they can see them looking down going you live here thing and then and then they they said we’ve made we’ve
Uh um we’ve come to a decision the the council we’d like to offer you the first full-time job as the rugby coach of England so I’m literally these guys are in my house here I’m going well great that’s fantastic so what’s the pay what’s the package and they go oh we
Haven’t really thought about that yet we just wanted to know you know we like I’ve been anointed or Chosen and I said I think you better so they came back about a week later and I won’t say what it was but honestly it was it was less
Than a a graduate P teacher learning and I said look do you want me to bring the kids and wife in and say great dad’s now the Robby coach but you all got to change schools and we’ve got to leave this house so we got and we got it done
Eventually but the time they all I I what I did because I was I was the obviously the the um the owner of this small Leasing company but I was a PO employee so I actually when I got my paycheck out so look here’s my here’s my
Monthly paycheck you’ve come to me I’ve not applied for this job you’ve come to me here’s my monthly paycheck uh and by the way that’s not including bonuses or director’s guarantees at the end director bonuses the end of the year I you see their faces this guy that’s ridiculous we’re never gonna
Pay you this I say well how after you apply for a job and you’re cutting your salary by a third or two thirds it just funny for but that’s how amateur rugby was so I I walked into this real amateur situation which Looking Back Now was probably a blessing because allowed me
To kind of start from scratch in many many ways and and how was that so that you come into the role that first three to six months you know in International Rugby you don’t get the time you get when you’re managing a team in a company
Or in club sport what’s the first thing that comes to your mind in terms of how do I prepare these individuals to meet the demands that are going to be imposed on them in in what’s now professional rugby well the reason I took it on and
It was a big call joking apart the business was going well financi is all going well then you go for this new new job and also from a from a finance point of view if you’re lending money which we fundamentally work one one of the big no
NOS don’t lend money to people who’ve been in business less than three years that’s one of the key things that was our kind of headline news so suddenly me taking his job on was going against all my all my kind of training because the job was brand new no one ever done it
Before so in essence what I was thinking right I should come in after three years because then you clean up someone else let someone else come in and get all the hard learnings all the mistakes all the all the pain um but I I didn’t go that
Way I decided to do it uh and it was you know I literally went to twick them and then again it’s wellknown story I went to twick and walked in um the lady on reception I walked in and she looked at me and said hi who who are you I said
Well I’m C Willam new rugby coach he said well what who do you want I said well well what do you want I said well I’ve come to work here he says okay well she rang Don Rutherford who was the director of rugby at the time I can hear
The conversation he’s going to what is he want I’ve come to work he said no you got nowhere Des you’re not working from here there’s no there’s no space for you here so he came down eventually the first the first Fallout came on the first day I had I had no office no
Sector and these are things I should have thought about but I sh people actually thought about this through So eventually I man kind a desk in twick them somewhere and we kind of went from there but I was literally the first person there was no one else it was just
Me on my own and with no one no kind of which in many ways we looking back now is again people shut heads and that’s absolutely true she said to me what do you want I said well I’ve come to work here that’s incredible especially when
You look at the size of coaching teams now and the infrastructure behind even tier 2 Club teams uh for example yeah I was the first one I mean I was I was really I mean looking back now you just or all you can do James no situation of
A business Bo just throw everything at it you just got to throw every out some energy passion and just knowing that you know this this is what you’ve got it’s it’s going to be it’s not going to go like that it’s going to be bumps big
Bumps on the way you just got to throw all your energy at it and you just hope you’re going to come out the other end and that’s why that’s why I’ve always lived my life really ever since kind of running away from school just throw all
Your energy at it and um things things will stick and eventually we started get you know took couple of years to VI sson and you just put I just look look back now the big thing was that running my own company for those eight eight nine
Years that was the best CV in terms of preparing myself to run a rugby team and I was the first professional coach from from the England point of view and when you when you look back and you reflect on that that I guess team you inherited and the infrastructure that you
Inherited that You’ just described there and then you flash forward to England number one in the world England World Cup win winning a World Cup not just winning a World Cup but winning it away um in in in somewhere historically where England had you know struggled what were the conditions and
And differences that you you sought to control that would distinguish those two scenarios oh listen there’s loads I mean the reason I took the job on to say you know I wasn’t going to just walk away from my company or sell my company without a lot of thought I mean the
Number one thing you know did we have the team to win a World Cup could we be the best in the world I actually think yes I mean I I I played for England over four or five years got 21 caps but you know we we never ret took the world on
We were stuck in our little kind of this is this is England and we couldn’t beat South Africa we could if you said to you know when I played we’re going to be better than all black sou afca people laughed at you so my number one thing
Was right and we got the players and then I I got the job in 997 you know and I was just looking as Martin Johnson as Lawrence delario we had amazing players but we’re ranked six in the world and we never really expect to take anybody on so my my whole thing
Was right have we got the players yes two have we got the finance and funding yes we have more money than any other Union in the world and we do uh and again because I didn’t know my background I can read a balance sheet so
When I got first got twick I tried to find out where all this money was going on and because it was going on all this complete nonsense stuff so that’s when I first started getting to head to heads with people on the board and Council just over said why are we spending money
On all this all this what we got to do we got to create the world’s best team the game will just Thrive then so we got to spend more money on this I want to in more more staff and coaches want to build this High formed environment and
You know the game’s got amate for everyone we weren’t the only ones but we’re so far behind the old blacks in South Africa just just our whole history we got to break that cycle so there were the kind of things that kind of just drove me on and drove me on that could
We the answer was yes because you we also got more players than everyone else in the world we’ve got more players got more expertise more money so all common sense of logic why are we ranked six in the world and fundament can’t beat anybody and the next thing which I
Really really pleased about I mean um you know when I play I play in The Backs you play in The Backs you want to play exciting reg you want the ball in your hand England was so dull where we play the game was so boring so conservative B
Based on you know just what we’ actually done over the last 20 30 years you know since I played so I wanted to break that in in bus terms you know the term disrupt I want to just disrupt in a real positive way the way we play the game do
Things that really un English and I started to then travel to other sports teams especially went to the NFL and Nike took me over there work worked at the Denver Broncos in University of Boulder had two weeks there that was just the best thing ever went to a real
Professional sport the you know the NFL American football that was I just just took so much notes what jumped out to you is a major thing from the NFL of Interest two things the biggest thing jumped out is you know I’ve played r on my life we have you know we we attack
And defense rugby you’re both you get the ball you defend or attack in there they have attack and defense you have the offense and defense and also you know in the Denver Broncos they had like you know that about you a dozen defensive coaches a dozen attacking coaches there was Specialists everywhere
You know and and then interesting and it was just a great environment because you know they have a defensive team that goes on to defend and when you get a turnover the defensive team comes up and the offense comes on and this makes sound so look I’m this is amazing then
What happens is you actually learn these actually two teams don’t like each other you can imagine imagine losing a game 4950 in other words the offense has scored 49 points and the defense scored 50 that’s incredible the mount kind of banter in a good for his way it was just
Really good I loved it of course I was there they didn’t know why I was I was you rugby in America was rugby and I was literally the tea boy for two weeks but I was going get me a cup of tea just keep out the way don’t because because
We’re sponsored by Nike Nike fixed it they had to have me there for a couple of weeks of course I’m just taking notes and pictures and thoughts and the whole thought me like we are going to put a massive stall in defense immediately called the guy back
Trick got I need a defensive coach that’s when I got this guy Phil ler who is the rugby league coach for Great Britain rugby league this is this is all complet just today is CH chalk and cheese this is all completely unheard of all came from American football we need
A kicking coach I want I want a a skills coat all this stuff but just going to American Football was one of the best things I did that literally my first two or three week in the job went straight over there and just sat in the back of
The room just I just want to see what professional sport was like because you assume it and I can’t I can’t just stress to you all all those years ago we were totally amateur in a in a in a really nice sort of way there’s a lot of
Strengths about being amateur but it was never being professional I’ve never been a professional athlete never professional coach so suddenly now I’m in a high-profile job the first ever and I need to get up to speed pretty quickly about what it’s actually meant which I think I did that’s that’s incredible um
Can you talk to me about the suicidal Australian dentist yeah um not sure suicidal is the right word but it’s close to that when I again when I was with um Xerox um I I worked in Australia um so we had I joined Xerox in 79 we went to Australia with with Jane
Who’s now my wife in 84 85 so like five years working in the UK then I wanted to um the same guy who employed me in Le went to Australia and he literally ran me up one day look I’ve got this position for you in Australia you should
Come and work over here for a couple of years and we had no kids no nothing holding me back so I went to Australia uh with with Xerox and I was literally on a Xerox another um sales training course and this guy at the front started banging on about this flipping dentist
Called Dr Paddy Lund and I just started listening what’s this all about and basically what happened in Australia I think these stats are right but basically more Dentists get themselves into really I’m not sure suicide is the right word but unhappy they’re seriously unhappy about being dentist sure because
The whole dental and this guy paty lond had got to a situation where he was really really unhappy and he decided to pack in being a dentist and he’s going to change his whole career and then the whole story goes basically the last minute he decided not to pack it in give
And give it one more go so if your mindset is that you’re going to pack something in you start get quite creative and he completely changed I’ve got it somewhere here he completely changed the way you run dental practice he wrote a book about it um it is his
Actual book it’s in that’s in the inside is this book it’s called building happiness Center business by Dr pad Ln I’ll find you one that’s open in a second um and basically he just changed the mindset and he he just he said right I was going to quit this job why am I
Quitting this job because I’m unhappy so I’m now going to really change the way run a dental practice and the number one thing is making the customers really happy about coming to see me and number two is making my team or my staff really happy about coming to see me so this guy
Completely transformed the way you run dental practice and it’s called building the happiness Center business by Dr Patty L when you read it it drives you nuts because quite simply you read it it’s so simple so obvious you why is that that’s so straightforward because we just get stuck in this Orthodox
Thinking you Orthodox thinking is a curse in business and Sport if you just think the way we’ve always thought you just get stuck in a rut so I I basically went to see this guy um and he he just changed the way I started to think completely and every time I work with
Anybody the first thing I give him is this book what I’m basically saying James is if a dentists who completely transformed the way dental practice what we’re about to do with the England rugby team for example is is a walk in the park because there’s so many opportunities to do this
So a very conservative business like being a dental practice can do this so he he did did this and he’s just a brilliant brilliant guy and the book is fantastic I recommend anyone who actually get it I think that’s a great again it sort fit feels to me like it’s
All about these standards right reflecting on what the what sort of Standards you want to set for yourself and I mean in that respect you’re you’re about to take this group of individuals on this huge change management project in a way going from amateur to to the most professional and successful team in
The world how do you how do you bring those players with you especially I can imagine some of them are Mega hard-headed alpha males like what what sort of things are you thinking about in terms of yeah I think I think you’re right they a lot of them are hard what
Was the word hard-headed alpha male hardheaded alpha males yeah they they were many ways but here’s a here’s a big but the first thing I did with all of them was sat down one-on-one not in the team oneon-one and just try to explain what we spoke about before what I’m all
About you know I want I do think we can become the number one team in the world not through patriotism or me being sort of oneeyed there sheer common sense and logic I said but the key the key thing I try to get across individually this has got
To be a two-way process you know the way the way I work this is what I learned from a small Leasing Company because I I always employing people a lot better than me so I want to listen to you you know I’m not saying I always going to
Agree with you but I want to hear your views I want you to really get involved in this now and if you all get involved and we get this in our room and all these views are coming through from all these amazing players we got a half a
Chance if you think it’s all going to come for me it just won’t work you what I learned you know from again my small company was listening is probably the number one skill in leadership and management got listen to and I mean really listen And while I start readen
Listen to the players and they started to you know once they got over this kind of shock because you literally someone said well hang on you sure I mean you’re the coach we’re the team you whatever you say we’re going to do I said no that’s not absolutely opposite of what
Want to happen it’s got to be a two-way process I abolutely expect you to question me not to not not just for the fun of questioning me or trying to be a smartass and I need you to question me if you think we’re doing something not
Quite right and I will will listen and I will re listen what I think I became quite good at was you know in my kind of Co coaching language if someone comes up with a thought or idea it’s going to make the boat go faster we will do it
Well I think I am quite good at getting things done you know getting budgets getting budgets agreed getting new people agreed getting anything agreed if it’s going to make a difference I will do it but what I think I am I’m quite good at that myself based on Patty in
New ideas but what I really started to learn was everyone in the team and I mean everybody do matter if you being there a day or two days you are now in the team I want to hear your views as well as mine a two two-way process you
Know looking back to the the team I was in with England you know we won one grand slam but we had some you know I still remember those days when I 23 24 you know we had people working in Industry we had captains of industry we had incredible people but we just sat
There in silence it all came from the coach because and that that was a big mistake big mistake in business you probably heard the term James psychological safety psychological safety is a massive thing and I I never knew that term when I was doing all this
But it makes total sense to me people have got to be in that team room they’ve got to feel safe stand up put forward ideas forward even if they may be going against what the leader saying or someone else in the team you may be talking unbd that’s what I foran teams
Do and and one of my favorite saying is as long as we all leave the room holding hands everything’s fine but in that room I expect really not hostile but really kind of good debate abrasive debate that’s where expected to argue our C we want to win you know and I think that’s
Why we got the job done in the end because we had this team that really were passionate about this they held each other to account they held me to account I held them to account and the whole organization and I I can honestly say I don’t think people do that in many
Many business or sport to the level we did out with that that rugby team that’s incredible and refreshing to hear as well I mean one of the things I’ve I’ve heard from people that have had the privilege to sort of play under you and work with you is um a concept you
Describe as teamship yeah could you explain to us sort of what what you mean by that I guess it links into that previous Point slightly if you’re G to if you’re going to create a winning culture um I think you need three key things what I call leadership teamship
And partnership and I think we understand leadership I’ve never seen any successful uh business or sport go well unless as great leadership so I think we get that we go courses about that we kind of get leadership so I’m just because I’m not talking about too much doesn’t mean I don’t underestimate it
It’s key the other one is Partnerships which is just internal and external how you really work with your internal partners and your external Partners what I’ve never read about and I think we understand those two is this thing called teamship and again I keep banging up my small leing company I just learned
To do this what I basic used to do um with almost that exception but I used to you know if we we want to if I want to discuss them with a team could be a behavior could be what we’re doing from scrums or line outs quite simply goes
Back to our previous point I want to listen to the team first I want to read listen to what what you’re all all saying so I want to get your ideas forward let me give you let me give example best one to give you an example
One of the first things I did with rugby team I do this people are working with is talk about time I think time says more about an individual than any anything I can think of this may have may have actually one of the things I learned from my my father against week
As a pilot in the Air Force I think time is absolutely key Let space how can you trust somebody who can’t be bother to be on time for you so did with the with the rugby team and I basically did you know spoke to them all about time so I said
I’m going to go away literally without being too dramatic and leave the room I want you to discuss time I want to know your definition of time and time isn’t isn’t just starting on time time’s finishing on time having a real respect for time and people’s times in in the
Whole thing but I want to know your definition of time they kind of got this because I’ve had one-on-one meetings with them so they came back to me literally in writing um I put it here actually to show you they they came they came they came back to me in writing we
Okay our definition of time is 10 minutes early so if you start a we’re going to start a meeting this morning say 9 o’ James like I did with you uh it’s a face Toof face meeting we’ll be in the room ready to go 10 minutes
Tonight so you as the leader this is the key thought just to stress this you you’re still in complete control you’re giving away no Authority right if you like what they come back with you and say it can become what I call a teamship rule if you don’t like you go no that’s
Gone too far it’s not gone far enough this what I’m actually thinking go and re rediscussed you’re trying to get all the teams to agree this and then you you have the final say of yes yes or no and that’s how it actually works and then what we
Did with t time for example um we you brand it and we called this Lombardy time after Vince Lombardi famous American football coach so all your teamship rules you kind of brand them in names that you can remember I promise you James speak to any player any player
Who worked for me for all those years just go Lombardy time they’ll go 10 minutes early spoken the clim this what creates the culture it’s it’s actually teamship my lombardia time now for Zoom calls is 2 minutes early so I look saw my saw my clock this morning speaking to you it said
8:58 that I go on I’m never late for a call and you were on early as well which is fantastic so what I’m saying about this team Sho stuff then then what we do start document this you see this thing here this is a huge book Incredible in
Here is every one of England’s teamship rules the Bible and I’ll just find one page uh if I can find it quickly but you can get into all sorts of areas on here if you just see don’t every player had this book and you see on here the players knew this lead leadership
Teamship partnership on this side that’s s all come coming together they actually understood this as well as I did in the end so it’s them putting forward ideas and what I’m saying is if you even think about doing this start off with something easy let’s say people are
Going to get time for example but then when you understand the concept this is what really amazes me about businesses and even now listening to what’s happening with the Tory party with with Boris I’d say categorically that the the um no British government since I’ve been
Around has had any any teamship rules to the level we had in this because You’ got to discuss all this other stuff and I just I just think there’s nothing that shouldn’t be on the table you know people if if you’re going to think about
This do do it with easy stuff to start with like timekeeping dress language all this stuff create your own winning behaviors but then you can get into scrums lineup so it can form part of your business all you’re saying to listening we try to check teamship rules
About them let me just can I just read this out to you yeah I’d love that this is straight from the players teamship rule this is word for word signed by you see it there signed by Martin Johnson signed by myself and this so it says I
Read to the D made me chuckle teamship is fundamental to the success of this squad hence the amount of time and energy we’ve all p in put into formulating these rules everything has been documented with respect to setting standards when we’re together as a squad
And when we we’re back with our clubs as we’ve already touched upon other talented sports teams have failed by not recognizing the importance of strict adance to agreed standards both players and managers alike remember these standards have been compiled by us for us the vast majority reflects simple
Common sense when we must fully understand our responsibilities this what made me chuckle these standards must be applied 247 and till death us do part that’s pretty powerful stuff we are here to set standards that are Beyond any other sports team business or government which they did between any
Other sports teams business or government think of the government today just no teamship rules because they’ve not sat down as a group and discussed it when we say you know so deaths do part what annoys me about government intensely you these very bright people sitting government they sit on cabinets
And then what happens when they leave they all write a book and Dish the dirt on everyone it’s absolutely disgraceful I promise you there’s not a single play every one of these rugby players they G on to win World Cups they’ve all written books they’ve never written anything
Negative about what the environment is about because that was part of our teamship rules because I wanted to know you know with the team I could be myself I wanted to say things I wanted to not actually think you’re going to hold me to ask about this in a year’s time or
Write books about it it’s all all powerful and you know there no one’s ever pulling out over this so it’s a simple subject teamship rules so all I’m saying is it’s allowing the team to rediscussed first you’re showing you’re listening if you agree with it become a
Teamship rule now once it’s in place that’s basically it as I say once in place because they’ve been part of it and I think that the the definition is you know if I if I’m if I’m being told what to do all the time I kind of Rebel
I’m not being good at told what to do if I’m involved in something I’ll deliver that’s what team te team is all about and say that black book is still the best one I’ve ever seen in terms of operating manag it wasn’t done by the
Boss or the company it was done by the team but you as a manager the leader and all go yes or no so you’re giving away no Authority whatsoever because you’re still in full control of what’s going on and if and also the last couple of
Points on this you get a new member a new member joins your team the first thing they do have to do is read this black book they can’t join the team unless they’ve agreed everything in it but here’s the big butt but in the first meeting I’ll invite that person could be
Some 18-year-old kid to stand up okay you’ve read the black book is there anything in here you disagree with anything in here you think we can do better so immediately you’re bringing them into the fold and if you think there is we’ll rediscussed and of course and it’s amazing because the first thing
That go is wow the detail is incredible it’s they know you’re walking to a high performing team and they feel safe because all this is in here but then you asking them to get involved straight straight away and if you can’t get agreement on something at some stage you
Leaders got to step in say there’s eight out of 10 or whatever the numbers are it’s okay enough discussion about this this is what we’re going to do I’m going to lead on this now we’re going to go with the two or the eight or whatever
And we’re going to try this for a month but everyone must try it in the right frame of mind we’ve got to get on with it so you can’t just keep chatting about forever hoping you get 100% agreement because what you what you actually trying to get it also maybe people don’t
Quite agree with this and this the one person who has got the you know unorthodox thinking about it could be right so you you Le’s got got got to step in as I said you know once you once you get the concept I couldn’t you know
If I’m can we get you into government we could do with it would you be up for it I’ve spoken I promise you I’ve spoken to every prime minister in recent times part from Thatcher not about this but you know from Gordon Brown to to Blair
To to met them at some stage you just feel they don’t they don’t quite get it they’re so busy been working in in what I call in the government and they’re not they don’t spend any time working on it I mean Boris is a a prime example you
Know I I flew back from Beijing with Boris B quite I I quite like the guy but where is their legs chopped away because they had no teamship rules about parties in in 10 D hisry over coid if they had created their teamship rules they should
Have published them to the world and say this is how we’re operating in our environment as a government they’re all too busy to even think about this and and it’s a massive mistake massive because this is the stuff that makes teams of people creates a winning culture creates Environ where people
Feel really confident to operate and when you know you’ve really cracked it James when someone comes to you and say can we discuss this can we discuss this and get you know harassment race you know diverting all this stuff people have problems with I have no problems
With them as long as we’re all around the table we get everything on the table we all discuss it and we make our decision what are our teamship rules around around around these areas and and Boris lost everything because he had no teamship rules around coid you know I
Don’t think it’s because of brexit it wasn’t because of Ukraine it was purely because they hadn’t thought about and no one come to and cing what are we doing here they’re all cable his head’s got to go because he’s the leader of the team
And in the end he had no he had no choice but I think if he’ just been able to actually understand teamship properly but how you run High foring team the government should be our number one high performing team 100% 100% go wow look how they operate not a not
All getting this real top level that’s the people you want to look up to and it’s not just the current government it’s every government I I’m since since thater I’d say that thater I think understood this better than anybody else but since sta I don’t think we’ve ever
Had a government we go wow they are setting standards Beyond reproach in every aspect and I don’t think they’ve been able to do that yeah so government’s almost this talented set of individuals with positive int itions but I think my favorite quote in around the subject of performance is Excellence is
Not about doing extraordinary things it’s about doing ordinary things extraordinarily well and I feel like this is where the government in particular as well as a lot of high performing organizations or potentially High performing organizations just leaks so much progress and and it’s hard to see when you understand the mechanics
Behind These processes that you’ve applied and and and how causally linked they are to to producing incredible results sorry to interrup throughout the podcast but before we dive deeper into the conversation I want to express how grateful I am that you’re voluntarily choosing to spend your time here with us
I also want to take a moment to ask for your support I want to bring you the best podcast I can in terms of guest engaging discussions and thought-provoking conversations every week and that’s where you come in by hitting that like button and subscribing to the podcast you play a vital role
Simply put when you hit that like button or subscribe you enable the podcast to reach a much wider audience and The Wider the audience the easier it is for guests within my network to convince their agents management teams to free up their diary and come on the show thank
You in advance for your likes and subscriptions now let’s get back to business the next thing I wanted to ask you about was retroactively as a as a sports fan as a rugby fan you look back and you look at some of those players like your Martin Johnson’s your Lawrence
Del allos your Johnny Wilkinson’s it’s sort of it’s so obvious to spot Talent retroactively but what were some of the traits that you perhaps observed in those earlier days as you were selecting these individuals into the squad that that spoke to you in terms of ultimately giving them the opportunity to compete
Because without that they perhaps wouldn’t be those th those individuals that that we recognize now I think I say James and you know i’ say this to Steve or at the current England coach the number one skill in in leading the England rugby team is selection it may
Sound blindingly obvious but it maybe sometimes people don’t quite get this you can have all the tactics and ways of playing and all this sort of stuff and all the things we’ve speaking about the number one thing is selecting your actual team and that that is really is
An art not a science that that that’s what I think set you apart as a head coach are you good at picking your team Pep Guardiola you know is he good clearly is he seems ability to bring in the right people and I kind of you know
I inherited this this this group you know after our first World Cup i’ only been there 12 months don’t forget we lost in the quarterfinals in my first World Cup you know we everyone’s after my neck we lost in Paris we got smashed by South Africa i’ only been there a
Year or just over a year and we didn’t deserve to win we we were miles off it you know and I made it very clear you know we weren’t fit enough we we just were nowhere near it four years later we win the damn thing you know so took four
Years to turn the whole whole thing around but the thing you’re looking for is players and and and and that that is that is the skill I also think you you need to get some um you you got understand this the type of game you’re playing the busy trying to run I I
Generally wanted a a team that could run just run run run for for eight 80 minutes the fitness we were nowhere near fit enough we’re nowhere strong I would say fit strong enough I didn’t want to create monsters I want to create athletes you know I wanted Seb Co in the
Team not not kind of prop not kind of weightlifters and and we really put a huge St on Fitness but we but the the biggest thing was every single one of these players they got the teamship rules they wanted to be part of this they wanted they want to actually in
Input on this and this wasn’t natural to him I promise you you know a very young Johnny Wilkinson who who obviously a complete hero of mine when he first came in the team hardly get word out of him he was so inor about Martin Johnson Del
And all the these Heroes of his and I L from day one Johnny you’re you’re the quarterback I need you inputting on this and eventually he became one of the world’s best at it remember seeing great team talks him speaking fluent French to his team down in L incredible yeah and
They but they all got it eventually and you create this environment where even a young Johnny Wilkinson feels safe by putting forward ideas even if he’s criticizing other members of the actual team that’s why they got the job done so you’re looking at playing ability that’s the number one thing then you are
Looking their ability to rec contribute to the whole team and don’t don’t think one doesn’t C cover the other because I think if you’re passionate about your own performance I think the other the other big thing what I said to the team from really early doors great teams man
Are great individuals which you know I pred myself on coaching High performing teams in business and Sport That’s my kind of D now you know two long time ago I played as a coach that’s what I love I think if there is a secr teamwork and being successful you get every
Individual working that optimal level and trying to be better uh the teamwork almost T takes care of itself what I used to use as the Olympic example we we brought Steve reged grave in very early on I knew Steve lives just down the road me and Marlo you arguably the best
Athlete in the world I B stepen to talk to the team and I literally sat Steve in the middle of the room had no notes just jeans and t-shirt brilliant guy sat the players around him I just want a conversation about what does your day look like what you get first went
Professional and even I yes even I I just stood back it was like a classic light bul moment I was in shock there what came across to him loud and clear he was rowing in the fourman boat at the time the amount of time they spent together was Tiny the amount of time
They spend on their own is huge in terms of their whole life from obviously being in the gym their nutrition the psychology side of things The Passion of subject so the amount of time together I said that’s no different than us we’re just and and that’s why I just s think
Cy I had 15 Steve reg graves in other words 15 guys who’ve got a gold medal around their neck in other words they’re the best prop in the world they’re the best fly off in the world the best scrim off in the world winning the World Cup
You’re walk in the park the team stuff takes care of itself so I changed my whole mindset around those individual players by saying right one of my major roles is how how can I make you better how can I make Martin Johnson a better second row how can I make Lawrence l a
Better back row Johnny WS better number 10 and that is really challenging there’s a lot easier coaching the team stuff that is in individuals that’s where the specialist coaches really came in specialized prop board coaches uh line out coaches we start being all the Sim and I think I never named them and
Uh then when we won the World Cup the starting 15 I would say confidently eight of the 15 players would have got into any team in the world with in in in the in the world cup so other words we had eight gold medalists then I think we
Had four or maybe five silver medalists and a couple of bronzes so they’re all on the podium in Olympic town we had gold medal and silver which is amazing because but that that shows you the M the the amount of passion they put into their job as well you know I said before
About two-way process you and me will not fall out if I really do believe you’re putting it in and you’re coming ideas can we do this can we do this can I do this can I get this and that provide also to the coaching team as
Well not just not just the players the whole star I want everyone to be the best in the world and that that took some time once they got it this is possible and then you start to do some real stuff I brought Jason Robertson was one of the best things I’ve ever done
When he came into the that’s the first time I consider myself as a a football coach because you imagine being in the changing room suddenly Messi walks in you know God we’ve sound Messi we’ sound Ronaldo we’ve sound stamp Beckham and that’s my well Jason Robinson’s in our
Changing room no one’s going whoa what’s he doing here they all go wow we’re now starting to bring in serious players into this environment and so the whole thing went went went again but you know so I hope that answer your question about you know great teams made a great
Individuals and I don’t think as Leaders or managers we ever spend anywhere enough time how can I help you get better at your job and then if you do help someone James and you make them better I think you get it back in bucket loads and bucket loads and bucket loads
But you’ve got the batting as a leader how can I help you but every everyone’s individual those 15 England rugby players all totally individuals totally different characters you got to do as individuals but some you’re going to go as a team if they know all their teammates putting it in over the last
Weeks months years you got half a chance so there’s obviously those times where unfortunately as a manager you have to cut players not everyone can play in that first 15 or even guess go to the tournament is is what’s your process for that is it is it benchmarking people
Against the teamship principles and those who arear most make it those who don’t it comes back to I said before James it’s you know selection is everything so you know it’s it’s one thing giving someone good news it’s not quite as nice giving someone bad news
But again in terms of teamship we we discussed this one of the first things we discussed with selection I wanted to know the team’s rules about how you’re going to behave and reactors if you’re in the team I want to know how you going to behave and react if you’re on the
Bench but most importantly I want to know how you going to behave and react if I don’t pick you in for a game or the World Cup what what you going actually do understood again this wasn’t one meeting this was a whole series of meetings eventually they came back and
They had their their team team teamship rules the biggest my my my if want to use one example me not taking gram rry to the World Cup still kind of gives me sleepless nights right because he you know he played he he was there from
Right from the start for me um only a few months before the World Cup we went to New Zealand he was a prop forward we won we won that game with 13 minut to the 10 part of the game but B because of I can only take four props because of
The the things about loose head tight head you know we had to take somebody who could play both sides and gr couldn’t didn’t want to play Both Sides i’ leave him out I mean honestly that was the worst decision uh I’ve met him several times since you know we shake
Hands obviously but what I want to say about gr rry he’s now doing really well as a coach in MST and Ireland he’s never criticized that selection once he’s never written about in a book never winged on in interviews on podcasts never slagged me off because that was the agreed teamship
Rules and it’s all powerful to get it in place because you know how you know how those players act I promise you can cut your legs away if there’s no real teamship rules around around this it just doesn’t work so also it gives you a lot of confidence you’re confident in
Your team because you know when I was leaving rry out he’s not he wasn’t going to say anything he just said look obviously disappointed respect the decision life life goes on and that was almost like we taught to do it deep down he’d be devastated Shad proba he still
Is today I’ve heard him interviewed they mention the World Cups he reminds everyone that actually wasn’t at the World Cup as he he should have been and it’s the one decision I still question in mind whether it’s the right decision but you kind of win the World Cup people
Kind of move on but it wasn’t what I’m saying there’s a process and when you think about giving people bad news if they’ve been part of sing the whole bad news thing up in the first place they know how they should react and they’ve been part of that and if you if you
Don’t want to agree to the whole teamship Pro there’s there’s the door I think the other thing James around this I’ve said said to everyone listen guys you got a better way of doing this I’m all ear I’m listening you know if this is going to make the boat go faster by
Your ideas so far no one’s yet come up to me ever with a better way of doing things other understanding the concept the teamship rules where you involved in that decision you document things i’ i’ I was party to this and if you don’t stand up and go no I don’t agree with
This don’t agree with this but he was a party of the whole thing he wasn’t the only one but here’s the the biggest one that I can honestly say eight nine years have been in charge it’s the only one that I still think wow I feel uncomfortable meeting him I’m not
Uncomfortable I love meeting gr I’m so pleasy doing it he’s being a successful coach and it’d be a good interview to ask him how he how how he handles giving people bad news now but I think one of the things as well is like it’s clear to
Me so an individual like that the contribution to and this is what’s becoming clear as I listen to you now is that there was this whole process and it really it sounds like there was this standing on the shoulders of giants in terms of these processes that have been
Embedded by those players even the work like you talk about Graham doing literally months before this was all part of setting that team up for success in terms of that you know the win in New Zealand creating just continuing to shift the perceptions of potential so I
Think there’s like a it is almost bigger than just the squad itself um and that’s the way I think of even even amateur sport like uh the harder you go on Sunday playing at an amateur level the higher the standard and you push everything up and you shift the Baseline
In terms of performance full stop but the better quality our game is at Grassroots the better product we’re going to get at the tip of the spear and obviously um yeah that that’s that’s where that individual was at but it sounds like an incredible process
Um I’d love to ask you to talk me through perhaps your Peak experience you’ve had an incredible career as a player and a manager but is there one moment that sort of sticks out to you as sort of the Above the Rest there’s a there’s a moment I mean the obvious ones
The World Cup final that be too to talk about there but when I started coaching England um we we we didn’t we didn’t I mean it was it was looking back now you know we weren’t ready we we weren’t as good as a certain hemisphere we we kind
Of got through this but in my in my um was my third six nations games so I’ve been there three years uh and we went to France and and suddenly we had Jason Robinson on the team and we we just played this game against France in in
Paris and I’ll never forget it just absolutely stands out this son of this team was playing a star of rugby that i’ not seen England play ever and we just destroyed this French team and and just stuff about disrupted thinking yeah I looked up at a scrum Jason Robinson
Stood at fly half you know we just said just give him give him the ball give him the ball Johnny moves over one jump boom and I’m just going who everyone going he’s a Winger why is he stood at fly half you know and just and we just start
To change the way we start to disrupt the way we actually play and the players loved it because of all the stuff that gone on and I think the word process is right they understood they’re part of I think process is a good word but they’re
Were part of a team where they’ve been part of building this whole thing up and and suddenly I’m saying like Jason stand there no one’s gonna go why is Jason still there unless every everyone was really wow that is huge we started to think differently then just before half
Time intermac who’s the father of the the current French flight half Interac their fullback he and he just came on this line and Johnny Wilkinson the fly half absolutely leveled him I’ve never seen a tackle like it they just literally the whole stadium stock this a fly half tackling
Like you know back row if Lawrence delad would hit him like that La would been proud johny’s cut into ma in half the ball goes down the ball went loose whistle go half time in the change R all everyone’s talking about did you see Johnny’s tackle I just remember those things I
Remember the two things about the game Jason Robinson getting get flight off scoring straight from a set piece and Johnny cutting Wilkinson in half and you start think a we are now doing things that very un English that was always my wish from day one to come in obviously
Be successful not but the just thing that and this I wasn’t doing this just for trying to be flashed I just thought this is a better way of playing the game we’re trying to play quicker than them we’re trying to be different than them we want them re worrying about us and
And then that’s what started to happen but it was a whole team effort from all the coaching staff players especially all putting in and buying into these ideas does anyone not agree with Johnny um Jason Robinson playing 10 and you do tell us now guys because that’s what
We’re going to do you have to have to be a pretty um persuasive argument to change my mind on this but I I want to make sure you guys all go with this do you feel like that was probably the first Tipping Point where from all that
Hard work that you invested in yeah with those it was a good good work it definitely was a Tipping Point because a were playing away from it’s one team playing at twickham where even in the bad old days we expect to win to go to Paris to go to blon font Orland that’s
When I started to really get excited about the team that week ago play away from home there wasn’t anything about playing at home now we got a Paris they were a good they had a really good side and we we demolished them in the end um
And it was was a Tipping Point because you’re doing all this stuff so it been two or three years but suddenly now you got a team go wow this this team is special when we ride the World Cup we’re number one ranked team in the world we
We had lost a sun Hemes team in 12 games which was amazing so we set standards I don’t think people can quite realize people remember the World Cup it’s really the World Cup was like the icing on cake a cherry on top of the cake there all the other stuff burning up to
It there there was some losses on the way obviously I mean that that record of winning away against the southern hemit teams is just it’s just incredible um I guess on the flip side of the peak experience is perhaps what I describe as this sort of redhead moment where
Metaphorically the [ __ ] hits the fan and you’re like confronted with with some challenge or you’re shunted into a really challenging situation is there perhaps one that stands out for you oh for me for me personally if I’m being brutally honest the the Lions tour okay
Um you know we win we win the World Cup um and I then have all out with people at twicker which was looking back now is quite bizarre we had we de of a major Fallout by the where the game should go so for eight nine years these guys are
Tken have totally backed me to be fair once I got in there I was going to ask you about that yeah that managing up piece because I think it’s something that I think people watching um I guess outside in there’s this illusion that the CLI Woodwards or the pep guardias
Have this you know they’re the king of the castle but there’s always someone you’re accountable to ultimately and that can be challenging I I I reported the chief executive I was part of his team um and also so there was a board um and we had really good people on the
Board again I don’t think they’ ever had head coach come to speak to them not as a group oneon-one I’d go to speak one-onone about this is what I want to do this is what I’m trying to do it I have to say for eight years they were
Fantastic you I I can’t thank Francis Baron enough um and they were brilliant I think py deep down they were going look let’s just go with this guy um and I after a few years I thought actually we could actually win this thing we could actually win the World Cup I mean
We went to went to Australia we ranked team in the world we haven’t lost to anyone in the sunf for three two or three years then so we we we were parents to win it was amazing then we actually got got it done but you know after after the World Cup um things
Things just changed was they they kind of I I think I don’t think getting kned was the best thing could happen to me um it is I was hugely proud for my family and the whole team I got that offer but you know I I I
Since I’ve heard people say you know oh you know KY it was hard work before this what’s it going to be like now which isn’t me I’m not hard work I think I’m a good team player what I am is pretty demanding of people I’m working with and
For understandably yeah and and that’s my job I’m there deliver for the team for the country but after World Cup you know some these things they kept starting to say no to me and I say what do you mean no I’m not here for debate about this I’m here just to tell you
What I’m doing for the right reason where’s this all come from they started clipping my wings and they started to actually you know give far too much power to to clubs in many ways where I was trying to go the other way I was trying to contract players I was trying
To get more influence with the clubs all the stuff that they should have done now that I think held the game back for 20 years because I think I think we’re ahead but they just didn’t see it and also it just you know so we had a bit of
A Fallout So eventually I I kind of moved on so um and then you again I didn’t apply for the Lions jobs I played for the Lions went on two TS the Lions job uh every part of my body James said don’t do this because it was n something
I was comfortable with you know I need to build teams the Lions is you really go in you need somebody you know mean mcgean was brilliant you Gatlin was brilliant um to to go in they’re very different characters to me to go in and have short shot hit so they chose me for
Lions uh and and I I accepted it any time I’ve play life I’ve gone I shouldn’t be doing this this wasn’t right I never felt comfortable doing it you know and then you lose and you you get a ton lead of feed back from the media and everyone else which is fine
Because that’s that’s all part of it um but the thing i’ the thing I’d say was and Gareth Thomas wrote me an amazing letter after the Lions tour and he has and he wrote this in the paper as well by saying Woodward should be the next Lions coach because he’s learned so much
On this one you know check it all out the window and I did I learned so much I never would accepted the Li’s job again because I I didn’t want to do a second term after you know because in my opinion handing that failure was not not
Easy so I’m not I’m not I’m not good at fail I’m not good at not not winning what do you think the big lessons were there is it is it you’ve talked about you had that feeling is it is it part of it listening listen to your gut or pay
More attention to that yeah no I think just the way I did the whole thing I did I just Tred to do too much things like the black book where play you know don’t I’m now coaching you Welsh players Scottish players Irish players who I’ve been trying to knock the heads off four
Or five years now I’m trying to be chummy chummy with them and almost tell them what how I was coaching England they didn’t sit com with me why am I telling him why am I doing that I shouldn’t have done it for that way and I really shouldn’t have done it but
There’s only one person that’s my wife said you shouldn’t do this that’s interesting everyone else has got so she was going no no no so I did it and and and also when when when we got out to New Zealand just you know not picking England players um stuff you know
Selections everything you know and you got to get you do need a balance across the team you got to pick some Scots guys some Irish guys some World guys me you got to get a balance you’re too heavy weighted on one side of course the England rugby team was you know the
World world the world champions we’re number one ranked team in the world eight those gold medalists I guess have to get in the for starters yeah and you know and I’m not trying to defend myself because I said it was a big mistake and I shouldn’t have done it uh but New
Zealand were an exceptional team as well you know Carter was in the team mcco was in the team they had one of the best sides of the ground so we got zip 4-0 and it was just kind of um and I was expecting a lot of feedback from from
The media I got a heap amount of feedback and I just started to think that’s thing the first time I was going you know that was a big big mistake and but I did I learn I learned hugely from it took me couple of months to get over
It get through it get myself back together again and then I went into football and it was it was all all good again so got no massive regrets about it but there’s one thing if I one part of my career if I could say I would do not
Do that I wouldn’t have done it again and I think I would have probably still be coaching England now maybe yeah that would be very interesting to see I mean back to the point you made there about that transition away from England team I
Mean for me I guess as as a as a fan and a sports fan in general it seems like sport has so many of these moments where these teams achieve success whether it’s England rugby or Chicago balls and then for some incredibly frustrating reason the uh the management or the powers that
Be tend to stick an or in here or there and you can almost see and feel that like what the hell are you doing worked so hard to build this momentum and this critical mass and and then they disrupt whether it’s you know moving on a big
Players or or or management and as a fan I guess it’s just incredibly frustrating to see that’s happened there’s no there’s no doubt I mean there was a article in yesterday’s Sunday um Times by Lawrence and Jason Leonard they’re talking about 20 years ago they’re talking about we went to
Australia New Zealand three months before the World Cup which at the time everyone thought we were crazy to do but for me and then they explained why we did it and they were so complimentary but also Lawrence is saying you know it’s it’s actually criminal that the
Learnings from that team have not been taken on it’s almost like the the people at Twickenham were almost a little bit resentful of it of our success you say getting knighted all this sort of stuff suddenly feels like that yeah they went went the wrong way and I I I I promise
You if someone had said to me you win the World Cup in November and you you been professional football six months later i’ said you’ve been yeah you’ve had a b on the head um and I wasn’t trying to I was do I wasn’t trying to do anything that wasn’t Absolut sheer
Common sense to me what’s happened to this game since everything I said reason I left because I resigned in the end has come true and now you know we we’ve not had a someone said Eng won’t win over World World Cup for 20 years I thought
You’ barking man why on Earth won’t win a World Cup but I think at the time you’re just doing your job and you’re doing everything the best of your ability but we they just didn’t see it and they they got I think they got a little bit intimidated by the players as
Well are highly successful players you know you look at Dawson and Greenwood and jonno the these are players are out there not they’re not yes men and I think we’ve ended up with a lot of people who are you know um very polite and everything everything’s done the
Right way but there’s no disruptors in there anymore I think England now falling behind way behind France and Ireland now who have got disruptors G is a disruptor Farrell’s a disruptor yeah I mean Ireland have been incredible um to to watch in in in sort of global Sport
Full stop I think what they’ve done has just been incredible to see but it’s also I think I think one of the things one of the only explanations I can think of that rationally explains some those actions a lot of these people in the ownership role or at board
Level they sort of they look at the they they’re outcome focused and they don’t pay too much attention to the methodology that’s been employed to to create the result I guess the counterintuitive thing about performance is that results are really just the product of the process for achievement
And when they don’t understand or assess at that level they sort of think well we’ve got the team that winning now we can move one or two individuals on but that team’s still fundamentally there but what they forget is that you’re ripping out the DNA or the the heartbeat of the
Organization at the methodology or process level and I just kills me as a sports fan to see it I’ll stop I’ll stop rant ranting about that now um one of the things I’d love to ask you about is I mean when we talk about performance Excellence outliers achievement the
Default is to zero in on the peak experience but there the other time of uh the other side of performance is rest and recovery and I sort of describe it as he’s like you know Elite Performance is this intermittent switching between that high focus high output of energy to
Then this actually flick that switch flick the off switch and then recover and ideally super compensate from that exposure to to the stress or stimulus that allows us to to get better across time but how do you do that yeah it’s good good question I’m probably a little bit
Different because um the way I’ve done it is in terms of switching off I I don’t think you can switch off I I I find it difficult to switch off I I want to be I I want to know what’s going on and if you get G to run that sort of way
You got to make sure your family are totally in line with that as well and you know I can go I can go go on holiday have a great holiday with my the kids and is there a Woodward uh Manifesto teamship yeah we’ got still got te rules about phones at the
The dinner table that’s got some good good ones around there but no I I you know I’d always want to do my emails first thing between eight and nine just to make sure on top of everything and then then switch off so all you’re doing is spending more hours switching off but
The family got to be totally engrossed in that and they and they they’ve got to be involved in that and that that that’s how I do it um I still I love golf I I really do love golf I think it’s a fantastic game so I try and play golf at
Least once or twice a week so I’ve got a handicap of five now and coming down trying to before I’m too old trying to scratch so I love that I think the family’s key or the people you you work with I I just find it I I I can’t really
Relate to someone who says right I’m G to just go away switch off completely for two weeks I see in two weeks time that’s that’s not me that that caus me more stress than than the other way other way around um remember there’s a great thing we did with Jess who’s now
Got two daughters I got two two grandchildren through through Jess and and Chris but she when when she was 16 I forget what the paper was somebody said said they met Jess at one of the games said can we do an interview with your daughter about what it’s like to be a
Um a child was high-profile sports coach I thought about this and she was doing music and drama at school so I said well we’re going to do this so I I forget it was that but they came around and Jess was been interviewed by this this guy in
The kind of in the in the the orange I was with Jane in the kitchen we’re kind of listening in make sure nothing D was happening and she was just brilliant because she said she said um we have this saying um about about about um Dad’s job that the upsides far out
Away the downsides and I’ve always said this at times you know I get stuff in the Press sort stuff that me but let’s face it the upsides far away the downsides and and and you know the reason we go on nice holidays a couple times a year and go skiing because I do
This job blah blah blah blah so she was just going through all this stuff with this journalist and going the upsides far out where the down downsides then she came up with a classic line she hey how many kids have Johnny Wilkinson for tea pretty incredible yeah and of course
They had we had an 18y old Johnny won team and she was like 16 my word yeah imagine this Johny was far closer to her was to us which great line so I think that’s why I said the upsides of what I do not not just for my kids and family
Lifestyle the upsides far up where the downsides now the downsides maybe you know do need to look at my emails once a day seven days a week just because that’s allows me to then go and play golf properly or do my family stuff properly on holiday properly so that’s
How I do it but I think I think families could fames family and friends are very very important I think having a genine another interest mind’s golf I think the third thing I put down I’m just a passion like call being sponge on the Rock passion for learning yeah you know
I’d give anything to go and spend you know two or three weeks with pep guard at Man City because there’s a process in place like I saw those the end NL first went to you know 20 odd years ago on that 30 odd years ago was the NFL just
To learn learn learn I’ve literally just got back from spending some time with the Philadelphia Eagles and I I can’t uh explain the value in terms of jumping between disciplines and it’s incredible and it’s not a case of changing stuff it just reinforces some stuff you may just
Think that one idea can be picked up but but you want you you know and I’m just saying to the team we first started you know one day I hope professional football comes to see what we’re doing they did when we won the World Cup um well who’s the guy from Leicester just
Got fired um Brendan Rogers Brendan was the Watford manager at the time he just ranged me said can I come and spend a couple days sure of course you can and I I was just that’s said that’s the biggest compliment em has ever paid me Brendan Roger and he he wasn’t even star
Manager he was doing Watford I think he was in charge of see I would imagine that you’d have people biting your arm off top managers they were they were no they were that’s after what all happened and I loved was great and wasn’t case of shutting the whole thing down anyone who
Want to come and generally because also by the way this two-way process what by the time you leave in a day time or two days time let your thoughts is anything else you think we can do better you know so that’s why I saying to anyone anyone who’s come remember Andrew Strauss came
To see us and just because I I would that’s what I did I’m not I’m not not defensive about that the first thing I did was go to the Denver Broncos and university of Boulder which is a university but they have 50,000 people watching their NFL games and it was just
Fantastic I mean it’s was just fantastic you so that learning is key so I think you can go I mean I’m such a sad person at times I have more golf lessons than anyone else I know so I’d go on holiday have a golf two or three golf lessons
Because I’m just trying to find out how they’re teaching what they’re saying to what they’re doing not not because I’m nting about my golf why I aming about my golf but I’m just trying to find out from a learning point of view how they coach what they’re thinking what their
Thought processes are I can I can see that one one thing I’d love to ask you and and and for me it’s just again that iconic moment uh in sport that you know it’s going to echo on for a long time uh in English sport particularly but where dwson puts the
Ball out to Johnny he scores that incredible drop goal and and not technically won the World Cup yet but you know it was almost inevitable that that moment now I’ve heard you describe it and um from a coaching perspective being on the sidelines there that there actually
Things that you weren’t happy with I’ve heard things like you know wanted to take the ball a bit further it was onto the wrong foot I wondered if you could just talk to us about it’s so interesting that that’s what’s you know as a fan you’re sitting there you’re
Just in awe your jaws on the floor but where’s your mind in that moment and what what what were you thinking oh listen I was I was right in the moment I was I was at my kind of best I guess um because we had a we know as you
Know scores a level you I know the clock because there was only playing 50 so we got one minute to go you know and and what it all came from was the nearly charged Down K B it came from the line out so I’m just you know and we the
First thing everyone’s got to realize you know everyone knew we’re going for drop goal there’s nothing else but we drilled this and drilled this so many times we’ve done done it in restaurants we walked through stuff in restaurants it’s everyone walk through what you’re actually doing and the the big call was
The line out because you don’t win the line out we don’t win the world cup so we’ve now got field position in their half and it was it was actually a great moment because Ben K was a genius guy genius player you’re hugely underrated by many people he calls our line outs
You know and and I’m now on the touchline because you I’m never normally on the touch line because we have to sit and picking coaching boxes I’m on the touch line and the players the guys on the bench are around me I can hear the
Calls that are going on so the the call is to Thompson throw the ball at the back of the line out Steve Thompson’s there that is a real risky call but L Moody’s un marked so Ben under real pressure makes an amazing call but Steve Thompson the biggest of his life he
Wants the call to be Martin Johnson front the line up he wants to try and just Chuck it there five yards so Tomo’s like this the call goes in Ben’s looking around amazing call calls Lewis Tom I promise she puts the ball down to Beno you
Sure he musts to throw the ball to the front so he checks the B the back of the line now it was a good throw not a great throw you see it um Moody catches it here there’s no one marking him that’s why Ben called it there we have got two
Lifters there no lifters so he catches the ball then we go and think called zigzag and all zigzag is is zigzag zigzag what we don’t want to do if you a drop goal you don’t to go wide want to keep the ball down the middle of the
Field in front of the post the whole idea of it and we’ve been to it so many times our mindset has got to be we’re going to score under the post so he’s just going to keep punching punching punching punching punching zigzag zigzag and it’s going really well cat takes it
Up then jonno takes it up up it’s all it’s all going but we’re trying to get it right in front of the post in front of the post you’re not going to miss or we going to score a try I promise you I can I can see and dwon makes the break
And we get you reason I’m still going with too far out I promise you I’m shouting no then Dawson who again is a complete hero who’s W for the whole game I wasn’t gonna ever take that guy off you know he he I can see him just set himself up
Andre Watson is they’re all offside he’s not giving any penalties though he throws B the door to to to Will my first thing he’s left footed Johnny he’s both but he’s 90% left footed hit him on the wrong foot I’m just going thought wrong foot and I’m just going with practices
For about living years and years and years you hit him on the wrong foot and uh so the and then it comes to John’s right foot he swings the ball because the ball goes flying over so I’m now shouting yes yes yes and um but it’s not
Over that’s not the game over there’s still one more restart and I I am going nuts to this St even the touchdown because we’re all over the place we’re still celebrating they to be fair to them were’re brilant they got back to halfway line think it was lck in their
Number 10 he sees Trevor Woodman stood right in front of him Trevor Woodman should be on the wing with Johnson listening him he’s out position so they kick on Woodman the prop forward and I’m just going if they and I’m thinking this all through them if they win this line
They win this restart we’re going to lose the World Cup and they kick it they kick brle on on onto Woodman and Woodman just saws like a salmon he just sawes yeah takes this incredible catch home comes to Earth BS all plow over him kick
The ball out and we win the world we win the World Cup but is that amazing I remember speaking to Dawson afterwards only Dawson could think of this I’ve G up to him I was joking I was just like Left Foot Right Foot he looked at me
Said Woody coach boss whatever you call me he’d already missed three on his left foot so I thought I’d give it to his right foot yeah fantastic I thought that was one of the greatest responses ever and there’s a little bit of truth t that
He had Miss on his left foot the first half but Dawson was brilliant at that moment because he’s directing things zigzag makes the break makes those few yards with the cre crucial so Dawson while was Johnny as Dawson who’s that’s why he was my number one number nine
Under Pressure he knew how to get the team done he knew how to control everything and he was totally control from the lineup the whole thing so and that’s why he’s a key guy that’s again back to jonno jonno was such a great Captain because he allowed the
Delegation in the real proper sense he wouldn’t have interfered that line out he trusted Ben K trusted Matt Dawson implicitly to get the to get the process right and everyone did their jobs properly so when I’m watching that drop goal you know I don’t watch Johnny Woods I’m watching all other 14 players
Because everyone’s doing their job properly one person doesn’t do their job properly we don’t win the World Cup that’s that’s the detail that I think you’ll find Pep Guardiola has got in that man City team their analysis would be huge about the detail would just be amazing yeah it’s incredible I mean and
And having having had the pleasure to listen to you talk about all this that’s probably the one word that if I had to sum it all up the product of what you’ve sort of created there with all these principles and processes you’ve employed is is trust that’s that’s how I’ve sort
Of perceived it seems like there was an inordinate amount between the team and and each other and then the team and yourself yeah I think trust is a great word James I think if you if people when you read about yourself other people writing things in papers and books if
They say you we we trusted him we trusted the system we trusted the process that’s a huge Accolade you know you can’t make people say things but that doesn’t come because you’re the heading head coach that comes with all the hard work and the detail you put in
And the effort goes in from the whole team and you start to trust the whole team and that’s why I think high for teams are successful you create winning cultures because there there’s trust that goes through it but it’s not just trust on the leader it’s the trust to
Everybody in the team you trust everyone everyone’s doing their job properly it’s Steve regra stuff 247 you’re doing your job to try and be a Gold Medal winner I’m trying to be a gold medal winning coach I I want gold medal winning physios I want gold medal winning
Players if we’re all doing that that’s why I think trust comes in you we trust everyone’s been hard working and then you you tend to get lucky is there ever a comeback on the cards for rugby for you oh no I I no I would I would have
Come mean I don’t I mean I’ve been interviewed more times than you’ve had I’m sure since since VAR people have spoken to me I don’t know why they didn’t want me to come back but I I would have come back I want to come back as director
Rugby that was the job I thought perfect for they they have no director rugby there now I think that’s why the Rugby’s in a bit of a a mess if I’m brutely honest in England you know it’s booming in France it’s in Ireland uh because I I
Just don’t think they’ve got the right people in in the right positions but I’ve said my piece so many times I would have I would have done it I was first interviewed in 2010 properly and they they gave it to somebody else and I I
Just go well good luck going yeah I have no comment on that for me he just incredible to to hear that um I mean football I know you had that year with Southampton is is that something You’ potentially be interested in I know obviously you’re enjoying your work now
With the uh Within win sports no I’m I’m I’m really happy what I’m doing now kind of I would have done I would have you I did year in football it was fantastic and um you know I did all my badges I worked High read that for six month
Which was brilliant he was just a genius to be in his office with but that that that 12 months that was that was I was ask stay in football or not stay in football then I got off of this job with the British Olympic Association and teamgb and took another Direction hence
You know if London had wanted the Olympic B I wouldn’t have done that I would have stayed in football but there I I love football I still do Chelsea season tiet holder good man we’ve had a tough year depressing hasn’t it I’ve just renewed them by the way I
Just paid an exhausted amount of money to renew them so I’m keeping the faith so again I’m looking forward to manager coming in so no it was it was I loved it I did it for the right reasons that’s a whole new podcast I went to the football actually happened that that’s another
Another story but I loved it met great characters headed by Red up who was just such fun to be with and around and very different we were very different we never kind of fell out and it was a good good time incredible I’d love to finish off just
With a few really quick fire questions okay that’s okay favorite movie uh every given Sunday excellent choice do you have a favorite television series uh I’ve just been I’ve just to go what’s that Netflix with the footballer that’s how good it is I’ve just forgot to anyway that one the Netflix americ
Football who comes to coach Richmond in uh in the UK oh it’s not Ted sorry Ted lasso oh incredible Tass that’s a legendary program I love that program yeah I’ve heard that one’s uh incredibly popular um a book you’d recommend this one’s called critical non-essentials by Dr pad the other one
Is BR building the h building happen A Center business by Dr pad which is in this one here two in books I’ve read twice brilliant books and then last question would be if you could drill one message into everyone um so they truly could understand and comprehend it what would that message
Be uh the one message for me would just be the the importance of of of learning um and just a passion for Learning and you know I think every individual’s got the capacity to take himself to a whole new level but I I think people make mistakes where you’re rying other people
I think you can do so much things yourself from a very very young age the more you learn about something if you’re passionate about it you’ll I think you’ll be successful at and get a lot out of life so and I think with today with the internet there’s no excuses for
Not not you know really contributing yourself to the to the Learning Time tal sphere whether you’re a young person if you want to be a sports person um you know really study the game study Your Heroes study why things happen and trying you know and surround yourself
With people who want to help you and I think that that’s that’s the big message I’d say to everyone but I think learning is is is is key there’s a great quote from Nelson Mandela I’ll make sure I’ve trying to get this right um because I’ve had my
Name associate with this every a few times it wasn’t me it was him um I never lose either win or I learn just a brilliant quote I never lose either win or I learn when you think about it that is such a powerful statement to me you
Know when things are not going well for you or you know I’m I’m losing you know it’s not all about winning it’s about learning from them how you learn from them hence I go back to my L’s experience I thought about that you know I never lose you know of course we lost
But I learn I learned so much in that experience which I didn’t want to do at the time it wasn’t very nice U for the kind of the things that were said but I learned from it and you kind of move on strongly but I did learn from it I was
Able to take on the messages to make sure I didn’t make that same mistake again amazing I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to speak today um thank you so much and best of luck with all the future endeavors Thanks James okay so so many things jumped out of me in that conversation first officer Clive talked about how great individuals make great teams I love that secondly the way he talked about leveraging other experts he brought in seve Redgrave to set the standards as an example he
Talked about wanting 15 Steve red graves in that team and by that he meant gold medalists in every position I love that even more and personally it’s a prism I look through in terms of the teams that I build and lead I think thirdly sli’s curiosity to acquire more knowledge is
What gives him that edge in his craft so he talks a lot about books and we’ll put some links up to those he also talked about visits to the NFL over in Denver and the University of Colorado team observing how they were doing things and where there was transfer for example the
Way they were so specific with their attacking and defense coaches rather than the generalist approach we had in British rugby at the time the overwhelming take-home message for me though was about standards and an undeniable part of leadership full stop or building Elite Performance in general is the ability to inject your intensity
Your Enthusiasm your perceptions of potential and your levels of belief into the rest of your team and keep it there I think slive gave us some real clues in how to do that and that’s where I want us to focus now so Clive talked about
This in terms of teamship so the set of rules obligations that the team voluntarily agrees to Adar to and commit to I’m privileged to have experience as a leader owner partner adviser with multiple Elite organizations across business Sport and the military and for me this is absolutely one of the first
Things I want to optimize when embarking on any type of optimization or development program the expectations of yourself and your performers and the standards against which we’ll all be judged must be explicitly clear and understood by everyone in the organization so I would use the term winning behaviors in terms of what we’re
Talking about here and for me there’s three steps you have to get right in order to capitalize on this in terms of the ultimate currency gains in performance the first step is that you must get clear on what Excellence looks like to you this starts with identifying moments of Excellence so when you’re
Performing at your best whether that’s for a split second 15 minutes a half or one game a period of games a month a quarter a year whatever’s relevant to you in those moments it’s about stepping back and breaking down what was unique about you as a team in terms of the
Behaviors you were demonstrating what was going on there that isn’t always going on it could be the way the team was communicating the trust you had in each other a set level of competence from everyone in the team it might have been a certain energy or intensity then
We start to go a bit deeper where was that coming from why was it unique to those moments you can even flip the question on its head and reflect on moments where things weren’t going well at all and identify what was unique about that period in time or those
Events this helps us uncover what we want to move away away from in terms of behavior and what we won’t tolerate in the future you can also ask the question what’s the opposite of those behaviors and that will help point you towards some of the conditions that we want to
Be targeting moving forwards answering this question is how we start to craft a very clear Target about what we’re trying to build the aim is quite simply to get clear on what it is that enables you as an organization to unlock all the talent ambition and effort that potentially lies dormant when other
Conditions just aren’t president that’s step one once you know what Excellence looks like to you the next step is all around communication how do you communicate this to every single being in your organization when I say communicate I don’t mean plaster it up on a wall somewhere copy paste some
Adjectives or a nice tagline or hand out a little culture book nine out of 10 times they end up gutless slices of paper Lord knows I think we’ve all had enough of that instead you need to ensure that everyone in the building understands and internalizes the why the
What and the how in terms of what these behaviors actually look like I really recommend giving tangible examples or stories that illustrate those behaviors in action and The Wider impact they had on performance and ideally in terms of the results they ultimately produced I’d also recommend using tons of examples
Ideally from what I describe as peacetime scenarios so perhaps Sunday night before the training or working week commences and specifically infer how that behavior is relevant but then also the more obvious in times of War so in Saturday’s big game during the presentation the pitch the sales call the investment meeting whatever that
Might be in your craft I think it’s really really important just like slive talk about to involve the cultural Architects the leadership team that makes up your organization if you want people to consistently engage in Behavior it’s vital they have the opportunity to voluntarily Buy in to
What you’re asking of them when you have volunt engagement in terms of standards and behaviors there’s no one yelling at each other to get stuff done because now getting your act together and getting stuff done is your job you voluntarily signed up to do it the reality is that
In any organization there’s that top 10% of performers that everyone else looks to in terms of setting these standards and unfortunately in too many organizations it’s done unconsciously so this is about making the process fully conscious so we’re fully aware of our behaviors and we’re fully aware of what’s being reinforced in the
Environment I think this is a bit like what I refer to as the David Beckham effect now growing up my generation if David Beckham got a new haircut I can guarantee you in the next week half the school I went to would have that haircut they’re off and it’s an example of that
Word influence so when you’re thinking about who to engage in this process it doesn’t necessarily need to be senior leaders it needs to be people that have this influence this involves second level thinking stepping back and observing who has influence in the organization at multiple levels whether that’s through ranks qualifications and
Different domains within the group you need to really engage these individuals because these guys are going to be the trend setters in terms of the behaviors standards and values that are enforced they’ve ultimately got political capital and you want to make sure you leverage it in terms of application so Clive
Recommended setting in the problem for instance what are the standards and timings in this team go away have a think and come back to me then the team come back with a proposed standard an important Point here is that you’re not losing any power control ultimately you
Retain the right to say no I don’t think we’re quite there yet go back but consider this or think about that next time this way it all flows from them which dramatically increases the probability they actually stick to the rules it’s a pretty futile process if we
Don’t get this bit right not only that these individuals ultimately are going to be the enforcers they’re the guardians of these standards when you look at high performance teams Senior Management shouldn’t have to be spending a lot of time working or jumping in on discipline that should come from the
Leadership team and that’s another reason I highly recommend involving them intimately in this process they’re the ones that will have eyes on more than Senior Management ever will so it’s critical that they’re engaged bought in understand and have the authority to enforce these standards we’ve all heard
About the famous dressing rooms in sport where you’ve had that Jose Mourinho Chelsea team with the likes of John Terry Frank Lampard did drug bur and Peter cze often described as the spine of that team they enforced the standards I’m sure that was exactly the same in
Clive’s England team the likes of Martin Johnson Lawrence delallo Mike C Matt dwon I’ve got no doubt they were enforcing these rules before anything got anywhere near CLI engaging in a conversation about discipline I think the other perhaps famous example in sport would of course be the Alex
Ferguson Manchester United Team I think his involvement in terms of basic discipline was probably extremely low with the likes of Roy Kean Peter shich and Steve Bruce in that dressing room another important point for me to mention here is so Clive talked about how when you’ve cracked this you’ll know
Because your senior leadership team will come to you when there’s a problem with the rule or the behavior or that we need to tweak something specific to optimize the adherance or to calibrate so that it’s more realistic in terms of its actual execution that’s a great sign
You’re really getting this right then we come to step three at this point we’re crystal clear on the behaviors that we know are linked to us unlocking our best it’s been communicated to everyone in the organization they understand and get it and have had the opportunity to raise
Any objections now it’s all about human behavior 101 the absolute basics of management which are so so often done really really badly I’m talking about positive and negative reinforcement we’re talking reward and discipline now if metaphorically your dog shits on the carpet and you give him a biscuit
There’s a very high probability your dog is going to [ __ ] on the carpet again and I see this way too often across multiple organization where there’s clear standards of behavior that are communicated people then breach them consistently even all in a significant Manner and there’s zero consequence we
Tolerate mediocrity and then we moan about it if you have clear standards and people understand them but then just breach them and you don’t force any form of consequence then mediocrity at best will set in extremely quick and it will poison your whole organization I think one great example over the last couple
Of years of where this hasn’t been the case is with Arsenal manager Mel artetta the team captain Pierre aubameyang consistently breached the standards the team and Mel had set Mel dropped him immediately and put him on the transfer list he was out the building this was a really significant bold and courageous
Example of not tolerating mediocrity I’m not suggesting that anyone out there should just copypaste this action you have to consider your unique constraints and resources before you make decisions like that but as an example of enforcing high standards and really making sure there’s consequence to failing to adhere to the basics
Required to even have an shot at achieving outlier performance then it’s a great example the negative reinforcement can range anywhere from uh hey you breached our standards don’t do that again we’ve agreed to this do you understand right up to the Mel arteta you’re dropped get out the program I
Don’t trust you anymore and everything in between this is where the art of coaching management and having that finger on the pulse in terms of what’s appropriate at the time is really important and I think leveraging the cultural architects in the organization to help set that is a very wise decision
If you know that those standards are essential to you achieving your goals then you have to enforce them one way or another the way you do that can be bespoke to your level of intensity constraints resources personality or phase of growth you certainly shouldn’t copypaste discipline methods from other
Domains or other people these methods need to be consistent thought through and considered by you and your cultural Architects so in terms of smacking people’s bottoms if they’re naughty you can decide how hard to smack is that’s not for me to judge but there must be some form of consequence and that’s
Really the take-home message here on the flip side you need to have very clear means of positive reinforcement something I see so often is that there are people out there digging out blind to adere to the standards set in certain organizations and they’re not only meeting them they’re potentially
Exceeding them and it’s so often taken for granted it’s not rewarded so metaphorically that’s where we need to have a clear set of biscuits that we all agree on and then give the performer that biscuit when they’re doing the right work again the biscuit could be a
Pat on the back it could be a public email to the rest of the organization along the lines of sort of hey one of the things here that’s really important to us and is going to be crucial to us achieving what we want is behavior X now this individual has consistently gone
Above and beyond expectations in respect to this behavior and I want to recognize it publicly this is exactly what we want to be seeing from each other and if we all engage in this type of behavior this is where we’re going to end up in terms of success and progress with whatever it
Is your organization is seeking to accomplish it can be that simple the key message here is that we highlight and amplify the right behavior when we see it even if the kpis the outcomes the results they’re not quite there yet reward the behavior because the behavior is what will drive your results the
Counterintuitive thing about Elite Performance is that results aren’t the problem the results are just the symptoms of your process for achievement and one of the most crucial factors of any process is the behaviors we consistently demonstrate so we have to get this right in terms of measuring
This one of the things I’ve seen work really really well is weekly monthly fortnightly meetings where those cult Architects we talked about the leaders the individuals with influence sit down and just have a quick recap in terms of what are the four five maybe even 10 standards we have in terms of technical
Standards or the behavioral standards and has anyone breached them has anyone got above and beyond with them and if no one pops out then that’s fine but if someone does whether it’s negative or positive just check in immediately bring the person in there and then and either give them that feedback positive or
Negative in a way that’s consistent as a leadership team psychologically speaking what we’re trying to do here is maximally activate motivation within the organization and we need to leverage the brain’s two motivational Pathways for us we want to run away from or have some fear of engaging in low performance
Behaviors that’s the point of the negative consequence of failing to meet those standards but then we also have to have something predatory and engaging to chase down to get excited about and that engaging in these high performance behaviors going above and beyond to meet standards that win our days games weeks
Months and seasons and that’s why we need to reward all of that a key Point here is that these standards must be achievable and we must then seek to set everyone in the organization up for Success this is certainly not just some set up some ridiculous attainable
Standard and thrash people to death when they don’t meet it which is why it must be considered it must be a bottomup approach involving those cultural Architects and it will be a progressive process where the Baseline of those standards will shift upwards across time and if we execute these three steps
Properly that’s exactly what you will see to wrap this up one of the key things about this podcast is unlocking the real tangible psychological biological factors that can enhance the performance of yourself and your organization and for me this simple three-step process is a very tangible
Way to do that the only thing that impedes you getting this right is you the takeaway questions for me then are one can you honestly say you’re crystal clear on what Excellence looks like for you and what it takes to excel what the behaviors are that drive Elite Performance in your organization and
Then secondly how many of you are absolutely sure that you’ve communicated that clearly to everyone in your organization and three are you consistently ensuring there are consequences for low performance in terms of these behaviors and rewards for adance following these three steps isn’t rocket science but at the same time it
Does require thinking is not copypaste oh well the All Blacks do this therefore so should we it’s got to come from you it’s got to be bespoke to you your organization and the individuals the cultural Architects that said it and you need to meet them where they are but the
Returns for engaging in this process and doing so correctly will be enormous I can promise you that I’m always shouting about how exence is not about doing extraordinary things it’s about doing ordinary things extraordinarily well and this is one of those absolute fundamentals in leadership and management please please please take the
Time to make sure you can answer those questions with a yes I want to say a special thank you to Sir Clive Woodward he was the first professional coach in rugby but for me one of the first professional coaches Full Stop in terms of how he brought methodology to
Building an Elite Performance team he wasn’t just an ex-player that copy pasted his experiences he did did that thinking for himself stepping back reflecting and leveraging other experts I personally believe that CLI had a significant impact in terms of how professional sport evolved specifically in the UK and was an absolute Catalyst
For what we see today I think CLI demonstrates immense humility in the role he’s probably played in that area and one of the reasons we’re so lucky in 2023 in terms of being able to benefit from so much science in the era of human performance it’s because of the second
Level thinking open mindedness and hard work that the likes of Sir Clive engaged in back in 2003 so thanks again for that Clive it was brilliant to speak with you I can’t wait to catch up soon and watch all your success to come with teamgb snow sport I’ll be leaping like a salmon
When we win that first gold medal thank you for choosing to spend your time with us today I love this topic of human performance and excellence and I’ve been engaged in it neurotically for the last 20 years it’s a sincere privilege to have the opportunity to share my knowledge
Network and learnings with you now go and put the principles to work make sure you let us know what resonates reach out with questions blind spots we’ve got you covered remember exence is just a series of days repeated over and over again now go and win your day in 2021 I published
My first book accelerating Excellence if you’re finding the conversations and information on this podcast useful you might want a physical reference point and to gain even deeper awareness of the concepts discussed the book’s actually more of an operation manual containing more detail with a step-by-step guide on
How to implement all this stuff so you can get maximum benefit which was one of my main motivations in writing it yes I want the podcast and the book to be inspiring and entertaining but it was non-negotiable for me to make sure that the listener or reader is provided with
A structure and direction in terms of actually putting this stuff to work the book’s called accelerating Excellence it’s a number one international bestseller and if you’re moving from more than just interest towards implementation I think you’ll really enjoy it like everything I do the book is evidence-based but practice Le
Drawing on my experience working with some of the world’s most elite exclusive High performing teams and individuals is filled with highly actionable strategies you can apply today to become better tomorrow if this sounds like something from you see the link in description where you can download six chapters of
The book for free in either audio or digital format it’s also available to purchase on Amazon Barnes & Noble and at your local bookstore I hope you enjoy by now we all know the importance of a winning mindset we’re bombarded with Elite performers telling us that mindsets what separates the best from
The rest that if we want to be successful we need to be more confident resilient and motivated and of course when Panic strikes we need to calm down relax or chill out great we get it but the question is how we’re given this Guidance with almost zero practical
Advice in terms of how to achieve it where can we actually go to develop that world-class mindset what’s the back squat for resilience the bench press for confidence and the bicep k for positive thinking well that’s why I created the mindset app through the app you’ll gain access to the psychological skills
Training used by world champion athletes Special Forces operators and some of the world’s most successful Traders and investors the real it is these guys pay me a fortune to help them get this right but the thing is these skills are equally if not more important for the aspiring athlete executive or operator
And that’s exactly why I created this app I want these tools and training available to anyone anywhere anytime mindset is a skill and like any skill it can be developed with the right strategy and effort the tools and techniques are designed in a way that will literally
Rewire your brain like learning to ride a bike or drive a car all the techniques are designed with creating high- performing self-regulating U 2.0 every strategy in the mindset app is backed by Empirical research there’s 10-minute emotional control training exercises that have been shown to increase your ability to overcome detrimental
Decision-making biases by up to 80% in another study just three weeks of executing visualization training led to 34% improvements in performance another research Group found 50% greater improvements in the rate of learning and just a few weeks of Performing visualization led to 22% reductions in anxiety and 21% increases in confidence
These numbers are phenomenal and I’ve never met an elite performer in any domain that can afford to be missing out on this type of edge what I love most is that we’ve structured everything so that you don’t need to carve out an extra hour in your day to get this done small
Bite-sized chunks of 5 to 10 minutes are all it takes in fact I’d only encourage you to use the tool on your commute in the sauna at the end of your working day or bolt it onto the end of your gym session any dead time you have can now
Immediately be transformed to deliver you Extreme Performance gains my goal is to remove every possible obstacle to your development and with that in mind the basic package is completely free visit the link in description and sign up for our pre-launch free emotional control visualization and performance routine programs I really hope you enjoy
It
2 Comments
This guy gets only 20% correct…far far below par
Nobody I respect less than rugby “administrators”