Our Special Guest this week is Grant Butterworth, Head of Planning at Leicester City Council.
Episode resources can be found on our website here: https://havewegotplanningnewsforyou.com/grant-butterworth-head-of-planning-at-leicester-city-council-s12-e3/
Have We Got Planning News for You is a light-hearted review of the month’s latest developments by five barristers from across the Planning Bar: Paul Tucker KC, Mary Cook, Sasha White KC, Charles Banner KC and Christopher Young KC.
The views expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the panellists.
Intro: 00:00
News Update with Chris: 06:55
Charlie’s Case: Stanton by Dale Appeal Decision: 09:57
Mary’s Case: St Albans Appeal Decision: 16:47
Paul’s Case: Billericay Appeal Decision: 23:37
Interview with Grant Butterworth with Sasha: 28:08
We five friends from different chambers/firms have decided to come together during COVID-19 to do a weekly hour-long show about the latest legal, policy and other news & decisions in the world of planning.
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#HWGPNFY
Good evening and welcome to have we got panning news for you thank you everybody for joining us both on the live stream and uh subsequent viewers on YouTube Spotify Etc um can I make the usual reminder first up um to uh consider making a donation to charity a Lu of a
Registration free um there’s a range of Charities we now support which we put on our website um they include but are not limited to shelter for the housing crisis Ryan May save me trust for the Wildlife crisis and the GoFundMe Ukraine page for the Ukrainian crisis but a
Range of other Charities to including relation to the energy crisis on our web page we we are um extremely pleased this evening um to welcome Grant Borth Grant good evening um head of planning at leer city council um can I start by asking you the usual questions where where are
You at the moment um what if anything you drinking and what are you chosen our theme for this evening um well thanks very much for having me um I am drinking a nice glass of S Young Blan um half full at the moment um like to try and
Keep my barcel full at all times um I’m actually run out West bridgeford near Nottingham uh at the moment um I’ve lived and worked in Nottingham for quite a long time um uh and in terms of my theme um I I struggled with this a bit
But I thought it’d be nice to try and choose something that was reflective of the challenges that that face us so my theme um is I guess difficult planning choices um and I I don’t know whether you can see that as that popped up so I’m from Rockdale
Originally and and I guess um planning for me is about taking difficult decisions and when I was back home at Christmas um this space uh public space in front of the Town Hall I just thought was a remarkable investment in in what in front of one of the best buildings in
The country however my dad and his mates in Weatherspoon think it’s Dreadful because they uh it’s lost lots of CH parking and it’s a real problem in the area so I guess I’m hoping that in in due course the planners who made that brave decision will uh will will will
Get the benefit of my dad and his mates uh approval uh but I think um at the moment it’s a bit contentious Amen to that BR well thank you very much for joining us um your G your inter GNA be led by by sasher in
The second half of the show as I always say um to our guests no obligation to comment on anything in the first half but equally is that Peak some interest to do jump in um and now to introduce the parel Mary um you’re somewhere different to good evening good evening
Good evening not in not in um tinely GL no I’m in leads I am in the room of a in the Marriott Hotel in Leeds where the snow is sort of trying to come down but not not quite and I was running with the brave decisions theme and because of
Course I’m going to another rugby match tomorrow I brought this with me to leads because I’m on the basis of Steve B Brick’s selection so go tomorrow Che cheers lovely to see you all and uh and you especially Grant thank you uh we all seem to be a different places this
Evening Paul um where are you you’re you’re so embarrassed by where you are you’re you’re o bleaking it no I’m at home um in terms of Brave planning so I’ve spent the last couple of weeks uh at at inquiry in Durham which is only about 20
Minutes down the road for me so I thought at five past five I can just about make it home which would normally be 20 minutes and in the sleet and the rain and the uh the traffic uh I was cutting it fine I thought I might have
To be pulling over to the onto the hard shoulder but no I’m here I’m I’m at my home and and in terms of the theme I was told it was being brave that’s what I’d taken from our meeting uh Grant so I thought i’ I’d have this is the the
Spitfire or the model of the Spitfire you see it’s broken as we moved house um my wife bought me a uh a a flight in a two seater Spitfire where I got the opportunity to fly it about four years ago over the White Cliffs of Dober and
Did a victory roll over the uh the Battle of Britain Memorial and I’ve floen Spitfire that’s the bravest thing I’ve done I thought you GNA say the braest thing you’ve done was to Embark upon your own renovation project in your beautiful house I can imagine that it’s
The year 2056 and Falls halfway through the renovations well my my midlife crisis is buying a listed building and then renovating it Char Lee your yours is buying another car yeah I’m don’t G to talk about cars we’re not allowed to talk about those um Sasha you’re in a
Hotel room somewhere too I am I think obviously Hotel designers love green because Mary’s in leads you’re somewhere else and I’m in y I’ve actually got yorkminster behind me um but I can’t talk about planning Brave decisions because of course all my cases are such slam dunkers in favor of my clients but
I don’t really relate to that but my Brave decision unlike Mary’s CH chosen Twickenham I’m on my way to Bonnie Scotland to support the mighty Scots beating the French on Saturday so that’s my Brave Deion rather than watching England lose on Saturday I’m I I fear
But we’ll see I hope not we’ll see good to see you and Chris back at home yeah I’m at home just as Paul is at home um and I’m in a list building that somebody else renovated Paul that that is a lot easier as a r um I’m being brave look
I’ve got a log burner on they’re going to ban those soon aren’t they so that’s Brave um and also uh I have this on my walls Lord Denning I thought he was Brave he often um tried to find the right result rather than what the law said lawyers making the right results
Happen um and judges as well uh I’m here with presumption and uh being very brave he’s trying quad biking well I’m I’m yeah I’m somewhere at Oxfordshire I won’t say exactly where I think there’s quite a few of the team I’m working with watching this and I I
Think they would agree it was a very brave decision of us all not to check out of our hotel and stay somewhere else um it’s a lovely Place really and um anyway without further Ado um f you’re going to introduce the news so over to you
I am I am there’s lots happening first up uh we’ve had um an addition of the PPG update and uh that chapter 68 concerning housing Supply and delivery we’ve got a new paragraph 55 and that tells us that both the fiveyear and the four-year Supply should demon be demonstrated against the um authorities
5year housing land Supply requirements so um we’ve got that very clearly stated in the PPG uh we also have the second round of transitional Arrangements concerning the Lura that’s come in and um we have now it’s enacting various Provisions section 94 National development management policies uh it tells us what they are
Although that isn’t very Illuminating when you actually look at it uh Street VI Street votes um are being enacted but um like many of this these things it’s all subject to regul ations which haven’t yet been brought into Force but something close to my heart is uh
Section 123 and that’s in relation to uh self-build and custom build housing and these are the new regulations that say that um a new permission uh only counts towards the register of self-build and custom build housing if it is explicitly stated um in the um in the planning
Permission itself so it’s no good Council this is to get around the problem at coun is just saying not yours Grant I’m sure but saying um anything that is smaller than 10 units is automatically self- bu when it ply isn’t um and also um the provisions relating
To um uh cumulative unmet need for self-build if you don’t meet the need in the particular period That’s covered by the base years then that is accumulated so it’s like having a shortfall for self-build and means that more and more of the demand will probably be met
Previously you just dropped off the list um and then uh biodiversity net gain obviously Sasha covered this this comes in on um on the 12th of February um for larger schemes 2nd of April for smaller schemes but interestingly as uh Angus Walker has noted um it doesn’t come in
For development consent orders not until November 2025 so um that provision being kept away uh from dcos for nationally significant infrastructure projects and then finally Michael go today um acknowledging that in affordable housing registered providers are under a great deal of pressure at the moment um that
Is causing a lot of difficulties with the delivery of Housing and indeed on cross- subsidized sites so um at least the secretary state is recognizing the problems we have registered providers at the moment and that is the news thanks very much indeed Chris um now I’m going
To take the first case um and it’s uh is a decision uh dated the 31st of January refusing an appeal um by wolf Asset Management against decision of airwash by the council for outline scheme up to 196 dwellings um in um place called Stanton and I think that’s come up on
The screen now um and uh the the site was on an area of Green Field which U wasn’t green but was proposed in an emerging all straty review to be included within the green belt um there were um six main issues defined uh by the inspector uh which included locational sustainability impact on
Character appearance and Landscape impact on uh designated Heritage assets uh whether the proposal would undermine the plan making process the emerging cor saty review whether it would um be contary to the emerging corat review if so what weight should we give to that um and various other uh points it’s fair to
Say the obect didn’t like the scheme um he basically Ved against the appellant for um almost all the reasons uh relied upon by the council it’s it’s a long decision and rather than talk you through each aspect of it I’m going to draw attention to four beaches of
Decision which seemed to me to be of particular interest uh and let you read those who interested read the rest of it in your own time the first point of interest is um the inquiry was held on the 9th to 11th and 15th to 16th of
August 2023 the site visit was on the 17th of August 2023 but the decision not issued until January 2024 and I mean this in no way criticism of of the inspector himself but there does seem at the moment to be a bit of a pattern of appeal decisions both
Inquiries and heres taking considerably longer than historically they have and dare I say they’re meant to take post hearing stroke inquiry until the decision is issued Sly might I’ve had one come out this week where the the hearing was in September um there’s various others where the inquiries were
In September October undetermined Etc given the the pace at which hearings and inquiries come on in position of dates people losing their representation Etc um it’s a little unfortunate they’re taking so long to come forward um is there a problem in the system is there a
Lack of resources Etc who knows but it does seem to me to be a systemic issue at the moment with the inspectorate and this this decision is Illustrated illustrative of that if I was the appell in that case I’d be a little bit miffed
If if I’d had to wait um some six months to to to have a decision of this of this nature um the second Point relates to sustainability and at paragraph 47 of the decision um the inspector considers the um the test in what was then um
Paragraph one n the frame I think that’s why the old numbers has just been changed anyway where there’s reference to a genuine uh choice of Transport uh modes and the appellant had relied upon that saying well all we need to do is provide a choice you can’t force people
To drive by a car particular modal sprits aren’t necessary and he said this well while whilst it’s correct that the requirement is for a genuine choice that shouldn’t be taken to mean the site meets the test simply because it’s theoretically possible for some people have a few to undertake a joury in a
Sustainable means um the the objective of reducing Reliance on the private car Etc will be difficult to achieve unless the choice in question is one that a reasonable number of people generally and realistically are likely and able to make he didn’t go on to say what of re
Remember meant but that’s an interesting um statement of principle some some of you will agree some of you will disagree with that but it’s interesting to see in ble with what paragraph 109 means um then on prematurity um paragraph 119 of of the decision deals with that and the spected
Approach to prematurity was given um the uh the fact that the site was in an area that was supposed to be included within the green belt uh and was and that that inclusion of of areas such as this within the green belt were um was quite
A fundamental part of the plan if the appeal was allowed he thought it was highly probable that the council would need to return to an earlier stage the plan prep ation work to reconsider some aspects of the of the strategy of the plan the settlement hierarchy and that
Was what he found to be the Prejudice plan we’re told obviously by the framework that you have to show that the plan making process would be undermined to found an a complaint of of um prematurity and it was the fact that they’d probably have to go back a step
Or two in the plan making process in light of the uh Grant of permission that that was the Prejudice so again quite interesting uh formulation uh of of what Prejudice in the context of prematurity uh is again some will agree some will disagree with a bit but it’s it’s
Interesting to see him grapple with the point of principle and then uh lastly in um right at the end when he’s the expect to doing the planning balance uh in the context of a fiveyear housing land supply of 2.65 years um the insector gives moderate weight the delivery of Market
Housing by the sche one might find that a little surprising um the basis on which the inspector does that is to say that um the the benefits of new housing in the scheme is countered by the need to sort ensure new housing is sustainable uh which he found this
Wasn’t um but he later goes on to weigh sustainability against um the uh the scheme and this does come up in time to time in appeals and it always seemed to me that one doesn’t reduce the amount of weight to a benefit because of some disbenefit only then to weigh the
Reduced benefit against the disbenefit again because that’s actually double counting the disbenefit um so um that seems to me to be a a questionable dare I say with the greatest respect approach to the uh the planning balance I doubt it will make a difference in that case because the scheme was completely
Slaughtered by the decision so doesn’t seem to me to be likely to to found a legal challenge but um I certainly would generally caution against decision makers and indeed those acting for appellant and and others uh discounting or reducing the weight to be given to a benefit by reference to dis benefit keep
The benefits on one side of the scales and the the dis benefits on the other uh seems to me the more sensible way of dealing with it anyway that’s um that’s the airwash case and now um I think we go to Mary who’s going to take us to um
From darbishire to S alburns indeed I’m going to take you to coy heat and another uh unsuccessful um decision but this time in the green belt and can I just say Charlie in defense of pins don’t forget that um because of the introduction of the new PP uh um sorry the
Mppf you know there’s been this process of letter writing to everyone saying you know uh giving people a chance to make rep so that’s that has undoubtedly held up um uh appeal decisions being issued um I would say they might decision by before December if they had an inquiry
In August well may maybe so In fairness this is an example of a uh application for up to 150 dwellings refused in May 23 inquiry September 23 um around a correspondence and indeed a uh a statement of Common Ground between the appellant uh and the um Council about the effect of the latest
Version of the mppf um so and you can see that this is an appeal by B Holmes and you can see that we had a very they had a very experienced inspector um dealing with this Mr Hayden and the critical issue was agreed to be um whether or not very
Special circumstances exist um because uh St Albans were had undergone a regulation 18 consultation uh this was a case post uh as a result of the new um mppf of applying the four-year housing land Supply not the fiveyear so it’s interest this this is an interesting early
Example of that um but in the context of the main issues here and uh Rob can you just bring up the plan to give everybody a little sense col Heath was described as a small nucleated village composed of three triangular clusters and the Appeals site lay to the south of one of
These um clusters and you can see there um the layout so the inspector identified the main issues impact on openness and purposes of the green belt number one issue he noted that the site compris of a dwelling and some Stables so the existing build development was only 3.8% compared to a developable area
Of about 52% he judged that there would be a significant impact on openness and that this site was visible from various roads and public rights of way and that it made an important contribution to the rural setting of The Village he felt that with regard to purpose um it would
Be a significant incursion on Urban Development into the open Countryside and so he found substantial harm against that key one of the key purposes of the green belt with regard to landscape character and appearance this is an example and I think actually your appeal decision Charlie is another example this
Is an example of an inspector disagreeing not only with the appellants lvia assessment but also some of the um planning judgments that the council reached and so in this respect the inspector took a harsher line than even the council had taken a with regard to
Some of the uh the viewpoints and so I’m afraid again this did not help uh uh the the appellant at all because he found that there would be substantial adverse effects from various viewpoints in year one and that would reduce to only moderate uh impacts but that was
Still more than uh the appellant was um advocating there was also uh an issue about the effect on designated Heritage assets although that was regarded as very minor because in in in the relevant part of the site the developer kept the the levels down low and promoted
Bungalows um in that location so that wasn’t that was a less than substantial um impact and the the planning balance um didn’t go the the wrong way as it were interestingly there was another point taken about whether the site was um sustainable in transport terms and there were there were services within
The um village there was a prechool primary school post office shop hairdresses you had to go further a field for secondary uh employment uh and Healthcare but what really bothered the inspector was the cycling provision which was quote incoherent indirect and unsafe and secondly he thought that the
Access to um medical facilities was inadequate the public transport access there was no direct bus service you would have to catch at least two buses and so he took the view that whilst those two aspects were not sufficient to Warrant refusal on their own they nevertheless were enough to to weigh
Against in in sustainability terms the um the merits there were some other um uh issues but they Highway highways in terms of U the generation of traffic blood risk all neutral he gay not withstanding the the Transportation uh sorry not withstanding the sustainability Point Charlie just to go
Back to your point he gave very substantial weight to the open market and affordable housing he gave substantial weights to custom build moderate weight to the biodiversity net gain um there was also a little interesting argument about pre uh the fact that there was a bit of uh the land was PDL he
Said in terms when it comes to Green Belt cases either if you’re PDL you’re within 154 G exceptions in which case it’s not inappropriate development you don’t need to prove very special circumstances but it wasn’t an additional Point uh to to be weighed in the planning balance in a positive way
If like these app pance you were way out of 154g and they were relying on an appeal decision in a case called matland but that was not a very special circumstances case so uh all in all for very clear reasons uh no very special circumstances contrary to the development plan refused
Thanks Mary interesting case and now Paul you’re going to take us to basilon district and my senior Clerk’s home town of Bill Hy uh yeah which I’m told was in essic I looked to get up three times before I open my mouth today uh and it’s a decision of Mr
Inspector Jonathan price uh who obviously shares a name with one of the country’s greatest actors uh and if you ever want something to entertain yourself listen to the outakes of War of the Worlds where Richard Burton cannot pronounce the word Bill Ricki uh and he pronounced it bori um with the emphasis
On the eye it’s fantastic um but this is a 4-day inquiry which took place in December of 2023 the opposite end of the spectrum is the one that you described Charlie because this is where the inquiry closed on the 19th of December there was the opportunity given for the
Parties to make written reps on uh mppf and the decision was issued on the 20 third of January so this is rais and sharp on the part of Mr inspector price who dismissed an appeal for a residential scheme in the green belt uh outline consent sought for 150 dwellings
Uh and a 50 bed care home on a site called potach road just outside biller rii um it’s a non-determination appeal as you can see from the head note that’s on the screen uh there were four putative reasons for refusal issue by the time that the case came to the
Inquiry there were only two two left standing one of which was whether there was mitigation proposed in respect of uh uh ecology um and beautifully described just before uh paragraph uh 23 I think it is is the uh the headline of the whether there’s an adverse effect upon
The door Mouse uh the use of the defit article presumably there is a singular door Mouse uh who needed protecting um which I guess is is one of those typos for which uh uh some correction needs to be made in you course but the real issue is very special
Circumstances and spoiler alert this is a case where um the inspector concluded the very special circumstances were not made out and that the impact in relation to Green Belt um outweighed uh the needs um which have been demonstrated now why does that make this interesting it makes
It interesting for a couple of reasons the first of which is um the need was 1.5 there was only 1.5 years of Mark General market housing as against to five land Supply in that case even post mppf um there was an affordable housing shortfall accumulated shortfall of
4,841 against a likely delivery of 76 in the next 5 years and there was also an established need in relation to um uh Care Home occupation in terms of meeting the needs to the elderly in other words a gross failure of the development plan system to plan for the local needs it
Was a substantial need and the inspector describe it as a substantial need with no real likelihood of it being addressed in the development plan anytime soon and this is a site where there’s no public righted way Crossing it so there’s no real visual impacts on the Green Belt
Well screened in fact it’s only described as having visual effect but that there was a substantial landscape character effect and a substantial effect on the openness of the green belt and it follows on and this is the other interesting thing from no less than three previous appeals where um the
Needs which are described there um uh uh uh were considered to outweigh the harm to Green Bells those are sites at kennel Lane maand Lodge and Dunston Road um uh between uh where are we 2022 and December 2023 um so it’s a run of those those cases where there had been
Successes and demonstration of very special circumstances on a case where it’s reasonably well- enclosed um but it’s post the new mppf and it’s difficult to avoid the inference of the reason why there was a difference of view taken there was firstly obviously site specifics every case will depend on
Its merits but also the increased emphasis about not releasing Green Belt to meet needs um who knows whether or not this is some sort of C change in relations to the way in which the planning balances drawn but it is quite startling that it comes after a run of
Three on the bounds so an interesting case and happily the door Mouse is safe thank you very much for the single one now um I do like the comments somebody said Chris they found something you said quite funny Chris Young he was quite funny EP and with that over to you Sasha
To introduce Our Guest thank you very much before I do I just I forgot to tell you as an as side in my um introduction that I traveled all the way to Doncaster today to see part of my horse that I own run and I went to The Paddock saw it and
Then the race was promptly abandoned so really worthwhile trip to watch the horse for 10 seconds before the race was abandoned so which part you sorry which part do you own um the little toenail on the left hoof how the other half L they I was gonna say the tries and
Tribulations Goodness Me of horse owners anyway actually when they all saw me he did um did seem a bit perturbed which wasn’t very encouraging but there we go um Grant delighted to have you thank you so much for coming on and it really is great to have one of the Dos
Of of the planning system on have we got planning news to you and I just I should introduce you I think it’s fair to say you’ve had an incredibly distinguished career principally in local government you graduated from Newcastle University and it’s quite impressive you live to
Tell the tales of the 1980s in Newcastle being a student there one night we’ll ask you about your memories whatever remain of the memories but then you obviously went into local government you had huge success you became head of planning at Nottingham you then went to Liverpool where you had
The Misfortune to work with Paul at various stages as I understand it and then you went to Leicester just in time to see the Premiership arrive in 2016 and you’ve been headed planning for 10 years there and I think it’s frankly worth saying an extraordinary career so
Let me just ask I’d obviously like to ask you a few things about um you know about your professional career I’ve given the hard bones of it but just give us from your view put some fat on those bones please well yeah thanks very much
And it’s it’s great to be here yeah I I enjoyed my five years at Newcastle I enjoyed my year out at North time side and I think I probably learned more in the year out than I did in the other four years if I’m if I’m honest um yeah
I came to Nottingham um uh expecting to stay a couple of years I think that was in the late 80s um but really um enjoyed about 25 years here um and sign down a really work through a really interesting period I mean the the early days um was
Very challenging in terms of riots and in the the inner city uh regeneration challenges were huge you learned a lot from working things like the in program and very formative times and I really enjoyed working in like M multifunctional teams but I became I guess um more focused on City Center
Work and transport work and one of the biggest changes in that I experienced in the careers when AUM gained Unity status um so we really took over strategic planning transport from the county as was and and really had a had a great time looking working with some great
Colleagues um re reconfiguring the city center dealing with huge uh interesting challenges like the introducing the tram workplace parking Levy and actually trying to integrate plenty and transport um that was a big it remains a big passion passion of mine had a couple of years in Liverpool that’s that’s couple
Years in Liverpool has haded plannings like dog years it came to almost like 10 years really but I really enjoyed my time up there but came back to the Midlands and actually I can’t believe I’ve nearly been in last of for 10 years um great city um and I guess yeah I’ve
Been very fortunate to work in three cities um where the amazing assets but amazing responsibility I think thing to actually I guess look after the and and look after the sort of stewardship of those cities and again try and facilitate growth in a way that really respects those places but yeah I’ve
Really enjoyed it thank you for your kind words and tell us why what led you down to studying planning and making a career in planning what how come just that goes back to rdale and my step Grandad um David bla was the burough planner of brale he was a very
He was a great guy he um very a lovely man very very capable qualified I think as planner and architect and a surveyor and and and again I find him very um inspirational and so he sort of I guess so he Peak my interest they also used to
Drive a gold colored capri with metallic finish which was very impressive to a young a young a young impressionable s 10-year-old and I I think the but I do remember we used I used to go to the market with my M and um and actually I remember when the market was redeveloped
In the I think it was the early ‘ 70s I was really intrigued by the sort of change and the and the and the scale of change and I just thought this is I guess it find it quite disturbing and and I just like this how how does this
Happen I remember it affected me quite a lot and and David was working on that so I guess I was I was inspired by him and and and again I I I I’ve never regretted it and us now let’s let’s go to the present and and us about your planning
Department and the challenges that you’re facing at Leicester city what’s what’s what are the things that are causing you most sleepless nights if anything Frank well the city’s a great City I guess um it’s um I guess we it’s very the V is are very tightly drawn uh
We got we we I guess the policy challenge for us is obviously how do we accommodate GR in a way that respects the Heritage 2,000 year old history leester you know Roman city twice as old as Liverpool actually a really a really fascinating place um so getting good
Growth managing Urban Design um in a way that actually uh respects the place but also allows the place the space to meet as as much of our needs as possible is is is is really important um but all that relies upon having having really good staff and I guess I think the
Biggest issue for me I think is is actually you know retaining and and and getting good staff it’s I think it’s a national issue that’s that’s problematic for everybody um and I think the I guess one of the things that we have to do in
Terms of making sure we I guess just can can deal with the the challenges of of the development pressures is to is to work in in in close partnership with with with you know with with districts and the county and to actually manage those those growth pressures in a way
That actually allow us to make the most of less but actually retain its character and make sure that we um we deal with that growth in a responsible way um but in terms of losing sleep um I think the biggest issue I think is is is staff and I guess budgets as well
Obviously the the the the the our income has not recovered uh from covid I think like most of most other places I think the economic conditions are really problematic and challenging um and that does that does put pressure on all councils from us I guess a corporate
Perspective as much as a as a planning perspective well just tell us because obviously you’ve now had quite a serious length of time ASE of planning our resources relatively significantly diminished from 10 years ago when you started I’m I think Lester we’re really fortunate um uh that we we’ve we’ve
Managed to um protect resources um at the moment we’re trying to invest the the planning fee uplift in um in in in effectively regrading the PLS within the service um uh so we we and I think that’s a lot of that is down to the the the political leadership who understand
I think and and appreciate the importance of planning so I’m very fortunate been very fortunate last I I I I can’t say that’s been the case everywhere I’ve had to deal with you know difficult situations in in other places where I work but um we managed to
Uh sustain our resources but I I I do see some pressures elsewhere locally and and further a field where um where again I I think it’s probably the worst I’ve known in terms of financial pressures on councils um and that’s actually quite can be quite draining I think I think
There’s Al there there’s a sort of a there’s a there’s a I guess health and well-being aspect to it as well it worries people and again we I think the the nature of how the uncertainty of things like section 114 is around the corner and how how how people can be
Confident and in their in their careers and their professions um I think it’s um it’s about understanding that there are actually personal pressures as much as the professional on so yeah it’s it’s tough it’s tough just tell us so practically I mean if you get a reasonably senior member leave for
Whatever reason how how difficult is it to get a suitable and appropriate replacement in the current climate uh almost impossible in terms of the the exper people with experience I mean if you think about the nature of having to negotiate I don’t know a city center
Scheme which is a is a a challenging scheme controversial and and and again the complexity of planning and the complexity of the evidence the complexity of our world it didn’t used to be that L long time ago but to be able to Marshall uh and and Master those
You know those competing demands and deal with the technical aspects reconcile the competing uh pressures of those technical aspects and I think that I think planners are planners are are very good at that but actually getting people who experienced enough to manage uh manage those pressures comes to that
Judgment they got to be resilient you know so I think I think so what what we’ve what we’ve been doing we we we grown our own and I think we’re very fortunate to have some fantastic graduates who are already stepping up to the plate in terms of taking on major
Applications and dealing with seni dealing with you know that you moving up to that sort senior level um because I think everybody’s looking for the same looking for the same uh sort of coort of experien staff and we’re struggled to compete with um uh with with with the
The private setor rates I think um so yeah it’s um it’s it’s very tough and I think but I’m I’m sure we’re not the only ones to to to say that well it definitely seems a recurrent theme now tell us what about the um the mayor you
Know that you’ve got you as understand that you do have an elected mayor and they obviously have an influence on the planning department I know you have to be slightly cautious so you don’t get a visitor at about 9:01 tomorrow morning but just tell us broadly what what’s
Your impressions of that I mean I I think the El elected mayor as long as it’s got the right geography that I guess having that Focus having that the resources I I think he’s really he’s really really powerful I mean we’re very fortunate I mean s pet SS elected Mar
Leester actually was M an honorary um member of the ltpi um a few years back which so he gets planning he gets some Heritage um and so he he actually and I think he’s I guess there’s two answers to the question he’s got extremely active role in the strategic planning um
Uh the strategic planning uh aspect of the of the job I mean only only this morning he signed the he poly signed the statement of common ground in respect of our R need um so in terms of uh representing the city within the partnership that I mentioned earlier on
He’s he’s front and center of that um but obviously he’s very careful very scrupulous not to get involved in the Quasi judicial aspects of development management and planning committee uh but I I did I do find myself sometimes get a bit embarrassed because if we’re showing be own City his knowledge of the
Heritage and the history is is better than mine so I just I just I am let him let him actually I guess represent some of the the knowledge of the city so but I think a lot of that comes down to politicians who I guess if you if you got stable
Politics he’s been around quite a long time then you can I think that becomes a really a really powerful thing I I I’m glad I don’t work for an authority where there is um I thir or third or third where the membership is changes such a
Lot because in order to be able to do good things difficult things it takes time so I think having a having a stable leader uh does does does does um pay dividends and what what just let me ask you what in terms of your obviously you’ve been at local authorities for a
Significant period of time what’s been the biggest change in members that you’ve noticed um I think um I I suppose the the nature of things like elected Mayors do change the context for the the rest of the membership um and but looking at I guess
The different models of um uh of of of leadership um I think the the the obviously politicians are going to be ambitious they’ll want they want to be able to make a difference and I guess there’s there’s things like the new the new dvo deals the new combined authorities there there’s there’s a
Massively changing context and I think that actually is um uh is I guess is is Chang in the the roles and that maybe changing the nature of people who were who were who were drawn to get into politics I mean if you think about the
Um the the I guess that what what used to happen when I started members would go be on committees and you get you become the vice chair of the committee there be progression to become quite an experienced member you then become a chair of the committee so there was
Actually I think that that sort of uh that that I guess that career progression for for counselors I think has actually changed very significantly I think actually to some some some extent that’s actually quite a problem because you might find that the more ambitious career politicians feel that
Actually there’s a more limited limited scope of roles at at the top table I guess so that um you know but I yeah I think the the nature the nature of politics he always been a political job and and again I think I’ve worked with some fantastic politicians throughout my
Career and now tell me about the future look into the future and again with the benefit of of your experience what what do you see as the kind of the key problems that you’re likely to face in the next five years in your department uh well that’s what but more
Than Department I guess I just think the climate Challenge and the and the I guess the ethological challenge we’re facing is absolutely huge I mean when you for a city like leer things like R fits quite difficult reconciling the built Heritage with the environmental challenges is really really important if
You think about there’s big problems in terms of energy big problems in terms of the national grid the local grid distribution um I think we’re exposed to flooding risks um so I think that I think that that characterized probably the environmental challenge has been the biggest thing that that really that that
The country has got to get get get get get on top of and I think I guess I’m a bit disappointed by the nature of of how the the national legislation for decades has not really been set set that bar high enough um so I think that’s probably the biggest thing that my
Successors will really have to have to res oldv and and that’s huge hugely significant um I suppose the other thing more things like the I guess the change in nature of the city center the change in nature of how we work um uh yeah so there there’s there’s some really
Significant I guess planning changes that the and in order for us to respond to that I think we need to be we need to be open-minded we need to look at new technology we need to look at um look at what what how other places doing that better
Yeah and what what do you think about in that context that the new mppf I mean let let’s specifically in the context of Leicester what you think about the approach of government to the housing requirement for Lester is it fair reasonable unreasonable too demanding what’s your view well I promis myself I
Wouldn’t swear so I’m not going to swear but I mean I think in terms of the the city’s uplift you know the 35% I just think it’s again I don’t want to talk too too specifically about the city in terms of where we are in now in our in
Our process but um the nature of how the city’s up how that is expected to be about in cities that are very tightly bounded that where the the capacity isn’t there but it’s also about the fact there’s no real sensible application of of I guess policy you know policy
Propositions in terms of housing demand and looking at how that how that should be met in cities um across the country and I think the mppf um the the mppf obviously with I mean we we’re used to change and we’ll deal with that change but actually I’m
More concerned about what’s lot in the BPF I mean things like what what do we do with UNM need in the context of what does this new policy alignment test mean that’s going to replace the the duty to cooperate um you know what’s going to rep how’s the standard methodology going
To be updated I just think this this little mppf is is actually been of staging points to a much bigger issue in terms of the new planning system and so I guess I and that’s that’s the real that’s the real question for me as well
Is how is the new system going to be going to evolve but I guess we got another consultation to go through on the proper mppf re revision which um which again is I assume is going to happen sometime this year potentially potentially what what about your own personal experience and duty to
Cooperate obviously or in very close proximity to other quite significant cities and and administrative areas how have you found their duty to cooperate well I just think I mean if you take away strategic planning which is a total nonsense you got to replace it with something they D to cooperate is
Is a really poor substitute for for proper strategic planning where you align infrastructure with growth and plan things properly I mean so the dut to cooperate I think is is is is problematic and it’s the sort of stop-go thing actually is is difficult and harsh but actually you do need something
That’s got teeth in order for it to be effective um what what say is you know again we managed to secure and we’ve got a really good planning partnership with the districts in the county we’ve secured and the I think a remarkable level of agreement about how we want to take planning of
The the housy market are forward it’s a nice geography ler L it’s like a crystal you got Central City and chains around it so actually we got a good planning partnership the juty to cooperate I think we probably would have struggled to reach agreement um on on on how we
Deal with that un without the J to operate but again that’s no substitute for for strategic planning and and again um I I I think it’s um I’m interested to see what you know what will replace it but I suspect that we’re not going to get an answer that question quite
Quickly before I hand over to my colleagues um can I just ask you lastly and this is a bit of a spontanous question but I I’d be interested what’s your what you what are you proud just of bringing about what what planning consequence are you proudest to bring
You about what building do you walk past and go wow grant that really wasn’t a bad day’s work I suppose um I suppose I guess it’s the the comprehensive approach we did to Los City Center I think I mean I I work for great director gold Adrien Jones who
Had a real vision for teaming the in a Ring Road filling in the Subways pedestrian priority bus priority trams uh improving the station providing the providing a a massively upgraded City Center and I think the the funding that we got in the in the 90s as after
Un States has allowed us to make a huge difference uh in a comprehensive way but I think um the the I can’t claim the same credit for the working Leicester but I think the connected Leicester scheme actually is is as good if not better well adding better in terms of
Its comprehensive so Place changing the changing the nature of City centers in a way that actually just helps them become better places changing that balance like the like the 10 or Square in rdale is that people may may miss that power parking at the moment but actually that
Is a European Standard square that actually people will be proud of and I think I think that to me is is what I I I can point out a few things that I contributed to none of it none of it is down to me alone all of it is down to
Working in in in significant teams with great people who’ve got resilience Vision creativity so it’s difficult to point it point at one particular thing but thank you very much right Chris have you got a question for GR please I have Grant good evening um I think we all
Need to just acknowledge you’re a bit of a planning hero really uh the greater the greater Nottingham combined authorities and then you’re doing amazing work with the gut sadate in Leicester you know against all the difficulties you managed to achieve that and that really is my question which is
How much have National politicians made it more difficult to properly plan in recent years um well I should I guess the um the nature of politics is something that we we with I I mean I I there have been I guess some positives I guess the national fee increase is positive and I
Guess the the environment act I think B the that game is really he’s going to be a real game changer something’s going to take a lot of G so there’s been some positives but I just think that the the the endless change the endless change has been really really problematic for
For this for the whole profession to deal with and it’s really interesting if you look at say some of the the scrutiny of of of committees in House of Commons and I spoke at those Lord scrutiny committee there’s some fantastic scrutiny done at Parliament um there’s
Some politicians who look at look at the the the challenging things you have to do with really really in great depth and with regret Integrity um but I guess that that doesn’t follow through into into some of the policymaking which which is inherently political so I think that never- ending change is probably
The the the thing that I would I would I would really has made life most difficult and what’s when you look at things like you mentioned the great not in call strategies we were working on those all in call strategies for a number of years and and actually what
That did is almost like finish off the RSS distribution 10 years later you know these things take time to work through um and and I think the the problem when you when you’re just refreshing changing the the the whole system uh literally every year that there’s there’s it’s
Just it’s it is exhausting and I think when you you know when you when you look at things like the white paper I think everybody knew the white paper was totally undeliverable politically uh yet there was still two and a half years of effort and consultations and a23 days
And responses um and and look at where we are in terms of a third of an mppf that’s been presented that still isn’t answering all the difficult questions so I guess it’s frustrating that actually direct change ambitious change quick change isn’t isn’t doesn’t seem to be something that that all I think most
Governments struggle with it it’s not not a party political point I think it’s um it’s a it’s a big and complex World um but I think it to have a bit of stability and in more incremental change I think would pay would pay a lot of dividends interesting thank you right
Paul um yeah it’s interesting journalists are the ones that are meant to speak truth to power it always seems to be planners on the front line that are saying well do you know what it stop reforming our our our system and let us try and bed something in and get
Stability um you know Regional planning abolishing that’s a Daft idea almost as Daft as brexit but you know who’s going to speak that on a national stage um so my question uh it was going to be about National development management policies but now that you’ve said you do these
Tours around Leicester for visiting celebrities and I’ve come visiting celebrity I’ve been a visiting celebrity to Leicester for a long period of time and not once of you taken me on a Heritage Tour not once I seen the last Yorkshire King who happens to be buried wrongly in your city despite the fact
He’s buried been buried under a carart for 400 years not once so I’ll ask you the question so you can apologize for that if you want Grant but um more seriously introduction of national development management policies are coming coming over the horizon is that the Panacea for shorter examinations and
A more straightforward system could we reintroduce special planning behind the back door what do you think and can we have a king back please oh let s call ABS I do apologize I’ll bring the I I’m I was initially worried I am worried by ndmps to a degree I think
There’s a bit of a democratic deficit if it’s the Secretary State just just determines everything but I do I do think that there’s an awful lot of duplication and and I guess standard policies that could be that could be could be could be could be sorted I
Guess that they needs there needs to be the space for sort something spatially distinct Ming right out University towns University cities student accommodation I think our swe sweeter planning policies that deal with uh student issues in say um Leicester as compared to say Brian as compared to Derby or yor
Yeah they’re not necessarily going so there needs to be there needs to be some scope to make them space to flex them spatially I think I think that the the interesting thing I did hear somebody make comment that potentially ndmps could could potentially plug the regional planning gap which I thought
Was really interesting where because there used to be obviously RPGs that set spatial spatial uh uh strategies for the regions um and actually you could look at maybe Regional distri you got a National Housing Target you could have Regional Housing targets you could look at distribution you could look at how
You share that growth across hmas within regions and and actually so ndmps may prove to be a route to actually do that that Democratic deficit point I think is really important because you you’ve got to make sure that all the LPA all the partners obviously got a proper
Engagement in that um so I think mm potentially give a lot a lot of power to the Secretary of State and the government so that will a lot it depend upon what the Secretary of State and the government may give that power I guess but I think it potentially could be
Something that could begin to answer some of the some of those strategic planning gaps that have got at the moment if deployed deployed properly let’s hope thank you grant just just add just because we talked about it in the news update it is in there Grant in
Section 94 of the leveling up Bill it secetary State can make policy um for use of land in England or any part of England so it is suggesting that we could have Regional and sub Regional um Provisions through the national development management policies thank you much Mary thank you
Very much Sasha um Grant following on from this theme I wanted to uh ask you about combined authorities um so in the context of lure uh which is continuing uh the expansion as I see it of combined authorities through introducing combined County authorities I wonder how effective uh in your experience these combined
Authorities are in terms of advancing strategic planning um and this sort of also plays to you know the the power that Chris has just noted because um these regions might reflect uh for example Liverpool and City region they you know they it’s possible to have um spatial strategies um perhaps set by um
By government so anyway what how exper how effective do you think these um combined authorities are and and what what are you expecting in terms of take up from the the in terms of County combined authorities probably don’t want to get too close into what’s happened in loc
And Leicester but the general Point i’ make is that the the the the actual the take up of planning Powers by the combined authorities actually think is relatively low so it’s bit ironic that actually I think the um the the the opportunity isn’t isn’t been taken up
And my big problem with the dvo deals and is that this shouldn’t be about which areas are going to want to be engaged in a political agreement with the government and they take up a special position positions of uh of governance there should be a consistent approach to governance should we should
Be comprehensive so I I don’t see any reason why so I think you got a bit of a patchwork quilt I think you got levels one two three and four of dvo deals and different combined authorities that get different rewards from the government I just think it’s a mass if I’m honest I
Think it all comes back to me to having sensible geographies um and sensible governance related to their sensible geographies and and as I say I I I’m I’m I I I I think the nature of I guess there I so I voted against the um the East Midlands a regional new combin
Authority and the 43% of people who voted um didn’t want an elected mayor and in where I live um we’re going to get one this may um that’s covering the whole of Derby darbishire notam Nottinghamshire I don’t see how that that that that rle going to have focus
And resources and going to be able to achieve things in really in the in in a way that may be a more a more appropriately struck governance uh would would deliver if you look at the big cities I mean a greater manester is the only place that’s really done strategic
Planning planning properly and that’s all down to the fact that they kept um The Association of grand man authorities agma they kept a strategic planning unit all all after the ab abolition of the met so I get it just comes back to me to you need to have a comprehensive
Strategic planning system that’s properly resourced and proper government and I I don’t think come authorities anything like as uh as as in effective uh a layer as as maybe a proper a proper strategic planning system could be thank you very much Grant thank you so much Mary Charlie um
Thanks Sasha um well something different from me I’m gonna ask this if you knew what you you do now so if you had your knowledge and experience of your current self but you could go you were going back in time and you were 22 um at the milk Grand again would you
Still go into local Authority work or would you choose Private Practice yeah no it’s easy question 100% i’ I’d want to work public sector 100% I think it’s so rewarding it is it’s I mean the satisfaction have been able to sort change places be able to point at things
That wouldn’t have happened there’s also we we there’s so much effort goes into negotiating designs and schemes that people don’t see the benefits of that negotiation you see the end result of maybe years worth of effort um you see the first scheme that comes in at preout
Um you know I guess yes 100% it’s great question Charlie thank you yeah you know I would I’d be in a bigger house with a bigger car and but again I’ll change it for the world by the way I love Leicester I’ve had many many a happy
Time there with um John Edmund and Simon stanion and then Chris mayor the mar the former Marin crew I think it had probably the best Curry House I’ve ever out on the inquiry tour which opposite the station which I gather is now closed
But U but there we are one day I write a book of of Curry haers around by absolutely that Grant you can ask him the same question at the end whether you know he thought it was a good idea to go to the bar or whether he should have
Been a politician oh go leave the questions to you guys I’m very happy with with my life choices so far he says pretentiously well um Sasha back to you well no thank you very much Charlie that just want to thank gr that was absolutely superb incredibly informative
And interesting thank you so much for coming on and hope we’ll have you back in the future when you’re reached even greater Heights Amen to that really enjoyed it thanks very much thank you very much V from from me too um that’s been uh really really exciteful we’re now um off
We were going to come back in uh in two weeks time so um we look forward to seeing you then um and for now don’t forget your charity donation please if you can consider that and and we’ll see you in a four day’s time good night take
Care and there he thank you grant heks scant all right Night [Applause] Oh