Our Special Guest this week is the Attorney General for England & Wales, the Rt Hon Victoria Prentis KC MP.
Episode resources can be found on our website here: https://havewegotplanningnewsforyou.com/the-rt-hon-victoria-prentis-kc-mp-attorney-general-for-england-wales-s12-e1/
Have We Got Planning News for You is a light-hearted review of the month’s latest developments by five barristers from across the Planning Bar: Paul Tucker KC, Mary Cook, Sasha White KC, Charles Banner KC and Christopher Young KC.
The views expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the panellists.
Intro: 00:00
News Update with Mary: 03:34
Charlie’s Case: Fiske Court of Appeal Decision: 07:26
Sasha’s Case: Lidl v East Lindsey DC & Aldi High Court Decision: 12:05
Chris’ Case: Hounslow Appeal Decision: 17:23
Interview with Victoria Prentis KC MP led by Paul Tucker KC: 27:16
We five friends from different chambers/firms have decided to come together during COVID-19 to do a weekly hour-long show about the latest legal, policy and other news & decisions in the world of planning.
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Website: https://havewegotplanningnewsforyou.com​​
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Good evening happy New Year you’re probably the last people I will I will wish that too welcome to 2024 and uh the first first of this year’s episodes of her we got P news for you I’m Charlie bner from keing chambers uh before we begin can I please um remind you um to
Consider making a donation to charity in lie of registration fee regular viewers will know that we endorse amongst other things the GoFundMe Ukraine page any of the energy crisis Charities Brian Mays save me um for the environmental and nature crisis and shelter for the housing crisis but of course please do
Uh consider making a donation to a local charity of your choice if you prefer we’re delighted this evening to have as our special guest none other than um the Attorney General um the vice honorable Victoria Apprentice kcmp um who we met before Christmas and who Paul had a uh led a stimulating
Interesting interview with her because Paul did the interview were pre-recorded that means that Paul’s task today is to literally just uh be sit there and and say nothing actually and sit in a car no less which is his favorite part last time apart from acting as a planning
Barrister uh and uh you have tell us Pawn in a moment uh which particular car part you’re frequenting on this particular occasion um but before I do uh let me introduce the rest of the panel Chris is um otherwise engaged in a family commitments this this evening so
Um starting as always with Mary the onus Woods have made a comeback in the show in recent episodes how are you doing and happy New Year CD it’s lovely to see you and happy New Year to you Charlie Sasha uh Paul and and everyone else listening
Lovely to be here Mary cook from town legal and I’m drinking a cup of yorkshire’s finest brew and all is well very good to hear it Mary uh Sasha in your recently re refurbished room yes I I I’d like you I am Charlie Banner that’s very good addition we got PL new here
Know um I am in London and I’m lovely I wish Happy New Year to all our viewers it’s lovely to see you all virtually yet again and our fourth year of um of production wow inde so inde DED so and um our our favorite traveling correspondence which particular car park are you frequenting
Today uh I I can thoroughly recommend the trip back uh from maidon and I’m on my way back to the Northeast um I’d hope to get as far as home or at least somewhere which looked like an office but I found my way to I don’t if you can
See Burger King uh uh by the side of Doncaster on the A1 and it’s utterly utterly Charming I’ve even lighting crew produ placement product placement how much did you take from Burger King well never by Burger King what about DLB brick yeah I know thinking how much you taking from them good
Point they bought me the coffee Bo boom oh she’s on fire he’s on fire great stuff but without further Ado um straight back to you are you’re going to tell us um what the latest plany news is since we last met well indeed and of course we last met an our special uh
Just before Christmas uh and that was to talk about the new uh mppf and it’s worth just uh reminding everyone that on the 21st of December the chief planner Joe ay issued another one of her uh updating newsletters uh and that Drew attention obviously to the mppf update and and it’s also worth
Saying that there was a reissue of the mppf immediately after our show um which isn’t drawn attention to in that uh written in her letter but she also talks about the uh written ministerial statement the Secretary of State’s speech and she also Echoes and draws attention to what the Secretary of State
Said about the role the important role that um planners play in local government so there seems to be again this Contin uh continuing theme and let’s hope um that that’s uh the government puts its money where its mouth is so to speak second thing I want
To remind everybody is that on the 26th of December um Lura came into force or at least some of the provisions of the leveling up and regeneration Act came in into force uh and in particular quite a lot of the provisions which enable the Secretary of State to make regulations came into
Force because much of the teeth of this is going to come later through the regulations thirdly on the 22nd of December D issued a consultation paper on Street votes uh and those of you particularly interested in that have I think until the 16th no sorry the 2nd of February in
Order to respond respond to that matter uh fourthly we mentioned on our special the uh review of the London plan that that the secretary of state had ordered and uh lichfield’s have been appointed to support um Christopher kovski Casey sorry uh who’s leading that panel and
They’re going to land on Monday the um the report is going to land on the desk on Monday um sadly I think uh the um the the next point I want to just draw attention to is the much publicized resignation of uh Chris Skidmore I mean
Uh who of course was the author of that independent review on Net Zero and although he the house uh and uh um and that is a shame I I think he’s very much going to be continuing in his role um in promoting all things Net Zero and so um
I watch with interest to see what happens uh to his career post parliament um and the other thing to say is that uh Dak the department for culture media and Sport and the departure the department for energy security H have also um issued a uh a a paper about the
Um historic buildings and changes to historic buildings in order to make them more energy efficient and so there is uh more guidance out um of a positive nature in relation to that so those are my sort of um six headline points thank you very much thanks very much uh Mary
Incredible turnaround time by uh Chris kovski and and his team that review yes so it’ be very interesting to see uh what that says once we get to read it um good well I’m going to deal with the first of the case reports and um I’m
Going to discuss a case called Fisk fi um SK a judgment of the Court repal uh leading Judgment of course by S Keith limam the president of Senor president of tribunals um and issued just before Christmas and um this was a court appeal case really um dealing with some of the
One of the following implications of the recent Judgment of the Supreme Court in Hillside so the the issue in this case was whether test valley burough Council had gone wrong in law when they granted Planning Commission for a sub station to connect to an already consented solar Park and the particular question was
Whether they’d um unlawfully failed to have regard to a material consideration by by not taking into account what the claimant says was the incompatibility of the Planning Commission under challenge the substation on the one hand with the Planning Commission for the solar park on the other hand and they said well
That gave rise to a hillside issue that implementing the um substation Mission would uh mean that it was no longer possible to rely upon the solar par mission that was a material consideration that should as a matter of law have been taken into account um now
The um the court of appeal in agreement with the high court rejected that argument and and dismissed the appeal and they said that the uh incompatibility would between the two planning commissions was a matter at least on the facts of that case for the developer and not a matter that the
Council was leg legally obliged to Grapple with in its decision um and although it wasn’t necessary for the Court’s determination appeal they went on to agree with the the council submission by by Robin green who’s my junior in the hillside uh case that um in in any event the incompatibility
Within the two missions wasn’t a insuperable obstacle on the facts of that case and there may have been ways to work around it so as to ensure that the two developments could come forward uh side by side without any Hillside issue now um there’s been a lot of
Comment on this judgment uh on the inet a LinkedIn Etc and I think it’s important to clarify what the Judgment means but also what it doesn’t mean um does the Judgment mean that the the hillside implications if I can call it that the potential to for a later
Permission to to deprive U the landowner the ability to rely on an early permission do the hillside implications of proposed development are they never irrelevant consideration no and the Judgment doesn’t say that they’re never irrelevant consideration the court was only concerned with whether the Council on the facts of that case were legally
Obliged to take into account the hillside implications of the later application um on the facts in that case now the court saying there was no legal obligation to take into account the hill Hillside implications doesn’t mean that as a matter of planning judgment discretion a local Authority has the
Power to if they think it appropriate to do so and further there might be some factual situations in other cases where it it could be said to be legally necessary to take into account Hillside implications in the sense it would be irrational not to do so for example
Where there were obvious public interest consequences from uh the earlier Planning Commission no longer be able to rely upon so it wouldn’t couldn’t be said it’s just the developer problem so for example if if a permission for three homes on a wider development site would would could be said to mean that the
Earlier the earli commission for the rer development site could no longer be relied upon the loss of housing land Supply might be a public interest issue so I think it’s important to appreciate that the case doesn’t establish any general legal principle that the hillside implications uh can never be a mandatory
Consideration it doesn’t establish a general principle um that they um they always aren’t a mandatory consideration it’s a matter of planning judgment on the facts of any particular case um so um so I think it’s important to clarify that but um finally it’s an interesting illustration of um the follow-up
Implications of Hillside I know there’s one or two other cases for example I think there’s one in the currently do the r as to whether it’s possible um to uh under Section 96a to make an existing planning permission severable um the court the Supreme Court in Hillside
Having said that if you have got a severable commission uh that would be a workaround from Hillside implications and that’s doing around so the Supreme Court’s judgment has still at a whole succession of potential um followup cases of which this is one uh and with
That I will pass Sasha to you and you’re going to tell us about a case involving little supermarkets I am and Alie I’m going to take Mary all of myself back to the Glory Days of retail circuses or beauty parades which we Star Wars Star Wars well I’m I’m too young to remember
That yeah well they were they were much fun and um a very interesting era when there was so much need for for additional floor space But as we know little and a have both in the middle of very very strong expansion PL throughout the UK and this particular example I am
Going to deal with a particular example which is a leave it’s not the final decision but I think it’s worth bringing to our viewers attention because it’s quite an interesting case involving involving where you have two rival application sitting before a local Forge in this case East
Lindsy and I’m not going to do a PLL and get the wrong County as I understand it it’s in Lincolnshire and it basically both ay and little had applications for their Discount Food Stores in in effectively the Town of hn Castle now they started off roughly at the same
Stage and during the consideration of the applications by East Lindsay little and did their application reduce the floor space proposed so they fell which necessitated a fresh rout of consultation which effectively enabled Audy to go to the committee earlier and effectively that was in last November November 22 and a planning permission
Was granted but by by Lindsay to a and interestingly the the the context of the two applications is that there was acceptance that if they were both granted there would be harm to the center in line with the guidance and the then mppf so there was only room retail
Expenditure for one now interestingly in the planning officer’s report The View was reached in terms I should get this right because it’s so important the planning officer said in terms that the outcome of the little application is therefore unsur at this stage and therefore it is open to the council to
Consider the a application on its own now it’s not a particularly good phraseology uncertain at this stage what that really in factual matters meant is the little application hadn’t yet gone to committee and consequently the officers then concluded it would be not be reasonable to withhold determination
Of the AI scheme and therefore they granted consent for that AI scheme and the little scheme as we know was still bind in the que and had not been yet taken to committee so after that Grant of planning permission not unsurprisingly little of effectively sought to challenge the grant of that
Consent on the basis that it is a material consideration the fact that they had a application before the authority and as those lawyers amongst us know the seminal case back in 95 was a case called Edwards and this very interesting discussion about what burden is upon a local Authority in relation to
Alternatives when they’re considering an application and as all three of you will be able to recite the four principles that deal with alternative sites are set out in the Edward case don’t worry I’m not testing you Paul you’ve got enough stress at the moment sitting in the service station and to recall the
Tenants of Edwards but basically the Court held that Edwards potentially was in play because um it was procedurally unfair potentially to determine the audience application until the outcome of comments on the little application um and the schemes could be considered together so that ground was effectively procedurally unfair to
Proceed but also it was a material consideration the little existence and if both schemes were considered together potentially the outcome might have been different it would have been open potentially to members to granted little and refused Aly so watch this space I know from discussed with one of The
Advocates are involved that was heard in leads in the administrative Court in leads there isn’t yet a um date set for the substantive hearing but that hearing and that case will be very very important on the consideration of alternative schemes um for for members and local authorities so watch the space
Charlie thanks Sasha very Sasha is it is it worth noting the identity of the judge because that may not be known to all of our audience Deputy High Court Judge Karen Ridge ex yeah Paul M first first ex inspector yes indeed so indeed so amazing and and
A lady indeed and I think she she sits on various tribunals too as portfolio judge so uh no absolutely um good well now we’re going to go to a pre-recorded slot but from Chris who say can’t be hit for family reasons um Chris in hsow over
To you okay thank you Charlie I’ve got a very interesting case this week um it is about a residential development but it’s about the development around it and also it provides a new sand school as well so Rob brings up the first slide we can see
It’s an appeal in hanslo in London A2 Dominion developments and for a uh special school and 124 residential units and the reason it’s interesting we go to paragraph two is that two parties were granted rule six status in the case um the Gaara uh seek Temple which is
Adjacent to the site and also there was a management company for residential Flats at Perkin close um the case concerns the concept of Agent of Change which we know is set out in the mppf um now we go to the next slide uh this is a picture of the temple and the
SES is immediately adjacent to this and the concern really was the noise generated from the temple but the concern was the uh those running the temple the seat Community were particularly concerned that the new residential development would inhibit the activities on their site um now if
We go to the next slide we can see that the site was actually allocated uh for development and it’ already been cleared for its educational and residential purposes the issue then is Agent of Change and we go to the next paragraph we can see that um the framework as we
Know seeks to ensure that new development can be integrated effectively with existing businesses and communities including places of worship and we’ve seen this issue with various issues like nightclubs in the anos area in Manchester and in Birmingham as well and making sure that all the new regeneration and significant residential
Development doesn’t inhibit existing uses it says um as the inspector says existing faciliity should not uh have unreasonable restrictions placed on them such as for example um the worship cannot carry uh out be carried out at certain times of the day because of the new residential development that’s come
In if we carry on uh we can see that um the operation of an existing Community facility the mppf tells us could have a significant adverse effect on new development in its vicinity and the applicant or agents of change should be required to provide provide suitable mitigation before the development has
Been completed and that was an important case issue in this case because of the Gara um uh Temple and we carry on um we know that um the potential adverse effects um are defined but the important thing is that they should be mitigated so as to ensure suitable living
Conditions in the case of residential development and minimize the potential for complaints against the existing facilties and the development should therefore be designed to ensure that noise and other nuisance generating uses such as light um and odor um uses remain um viable and can continue to grow so companies that
Are making food for example I’ve had this in Birmingham are able to continue to operate even though new residential development comes into a gentrified area if we go forward um what the inspector Mr Bona face observed was the Gara is a sizable uh facility serving people in a wide
Geographical area this is obviously the seat community in West London and it provides religious and community activities throughout the year operating every day from the early hours of the morning it’s attended by a significant number of people for a place of worship to receive a meal or engage in education
And Community facilities and of course they have ceremonies like weddings and funerals there on a regular basis so nobody disputed that it was a well-used facility and that activity continues throughout the year and the site is routinely used if we go forward uh we can see that um it was
Agreed the activities had the potential to disturb neighboring uses so um nobody was arguing that there wasn’t a potential conflict there and in particular the playing of the ngara a ceremonial drum in the outside areas as the inspector observed and this is important this occurred occurs on a
Relatively infrequent basis up to an hour per month in the courtyard during the uh gka demonstration it’s monthly and um during three other events uh per year once as part of of A procession around Hound slope and two flag raising ceremonies that take place in the ceremonial area in front of the goodw
Again for relatively short periods so the inspector is looking specifically at the um primary noise source which is the ARA the ceremonial drum and observing quite rightly that it’s not taking place um all of the time far from it it’s an infrequent event and all of us in an
Urban area have got to get used to um certain amounts of noise and activity um and that was what the obser to was observing if we go forward um it observed that the guara had the potential to generate significant amounts of noise but the appellant had taken that into account um
During the application stage and further details of activities were undertaken and they were subsequently provided by the Gara and so the Apparently AED with them and the council during the course of the planning application which this is exactly what should happen the applicant is taking into account um what
Is actually taking place on the site and communicating with the the temple to find out what the noise sources would be if we go forward um inspector refers to Pro PG noise uh planning a noise now this is document that’s been produced which suggests that good acoustic design involves careful planning of the
Development right from the design concept having regard to existing noise sources and design should seek to avoid noise noise impacts through distance and layout um but there are circumstances where you need to have screening or sound pref and that guidance um not to be confused with the PPG if we just have
A look um is a guidance that’s been produced by various professional bodies to help guide um the issue of noise and mitigating it um particularly in respect of residential whether the noise sources is like this or it’s from roads or trains or so on okay moving forward then
And um uh the inspector says the guara is one of many noise sources in this busy Urban environment others include the heavily trafficked handw Road and the aviation noise from Heath throw Airport flight path and of course we’re in hanso so um heow is inevitably going to be a feature of the lawyers
Environment here the building has been designed to a high acoustic specification to mitigate the impact of the noise sources and was designed to create a relatively quiet communal Courtyard amenity space for future resident sheltered by the enclosed buildings and of course those buildings would have a benefit for the proposed
School so it wasn’t just those from the neighboring activities but also those within the development and that of course is the P’s and teachers at the school um who would want an appropriate noise environment as well um if we go forward we can see that um really the
Case hinged on the use of the British standard 8233 and so guidance on sound insulation and noise reduction we’ve all done cases involving this um and the council’s noise expert accepted during the inquiry that if this was the correct standard and we all know about having endless disputes about what is the correct
Standard but if that’s the correct standard he accepted then suitable living conditions would be achieved for future residents and that there would be no reasonable grounds for complaint and in the end the inspector thought that was the appropriate standard so we can see a very interesting case involving an
Unusual neighbor and being resolved through understanding um understanding our neighbors which is really what we should do another feature of the case U which just go forward is that the asensor had to consider the public sector equality Duty um and of course race and religion or belief are protected characteristics and
Are amongst other things it’s necessary to Foster good relations between those with a protected characteristics and those without and then this lovely line from the aspecta multiculturalism in London is to be celebrated and communities are typically made up of people of all Races or religions living
Side by side often in a dense Urban environment and in this case I do not consider the ceremonial area the car park inherently requires a high degree of privacy or that a degree of mutual overlooking would be undesirable or unusual in Hound slow and isn’t that the truth um the benefits of the
Multicultural Society let’s hope all politicians understand that uh well done to everybody involved um everybody was well represented this is how we resolve these issues and if we look at the appearances well done to the appellant team James St was uh leading that team and um we can see everybody involved
Well done very interesting in case thank you very much Charlie thank you Chris and now we go to our interview well led by Paul uh with the attorney general um we’ll sign off live show now we see you on the 25th of January for our second
Episode of the year so thank you very much for coming please don’t forget the charity donation and uh now for the interview thank you thank you very much indeed um so thank you Victoria for coming on so VI the right honorable Victoria Apprentice KC MP DSO with bar
Um many many letters after your name what an absolute joy to have you on the show um You Are Here In Your Capacity as the Attorney General um so uh six barristers on the the call I think for almost the first time we’ve had a couple of occasions but almost the first time
Thank you so much for coming on the show lovely to be here I’m I’m only concerned that the the planning bar will not be operating for the next half hour or so while we all chat away we we can coope they’ll coope without us but but but briefly um so can
I I’ve got a series of questions that I’m going to ask you and then the others will have a series of questions so can I start off um by a question for our audience really uh obviously this is not me I think I know what the Attorney
General does um but could you give us a a basic insight as to to what your job is on a day today well it is quite basic it’s very much that a legal job like any other lawyer I am the main provider of legal advice to government so I’m an in-house
Lawyer I attend cabinet and um I try and keep my mouth shut if the matter isn’t legal but when there is a legal issue or or something that might become a legal issue I put my hand up and I give advice and I broadly like any other in-house
Lawyer expect that that advice will be listened to and and treated seriously I also um obviously you know I attend lots of cabinet committees as well some of which more legal than others and I advise on both legislation that’s coming up and also litigation which the governments involved in so it’s a very
Um it’s it’s not a grand role like that of the Lord Chancellor he has other duties duties to the rule of law um which which partially I I also share but he has a more ceremonial role my role is very much that of In-House practical lawyer thank you that that’s extremely
Helpful um so you qualified as a barrister uh in back in 1995 not withstanding your youthful good looks thank for that I was well you’re younger than me so that’s that’s that’s all I count for it’s quite terrifying when you encounter people that you’re against who have actually been born after you started
Which is what I’m currently encoun I find that quite a lot yeah so you you qualified back in I think about uh 2018 um your career rapidly took you uh into the treasury solicitors Department which we now know uh uh charmingly as the government legal department uh where
You Rose to co-lead in the Justice and security team which sounds very exciting and then in 2014 you left GLD and sought election as a Conservative candidate for bambury um now I have to say um I’m interested in terms of a variety of ways in which you may have encountered the
Planning system because I know well back in 2010 the inspiration that got you into politics uh he says me completely untrue um was that uh you led the Arley and fot residents group uh against a certain Paul Tucker who just taken silk opposing large scale wind farm close to
Their Villages um so tell tell me your experience on the coal face of planning as literally an activist from the the resident side so how did you find us as as you’ve just outlined Paul I had a really exciting career in in law I love
Being part of tesol as we then called it now the government legal department I did some really exciting cases I did feel that I was at The Cutting Edge of P Public Law nearly all the way through my career as as human rights developed and judicial review really really grew in
The period from 1995 when I started to 2014 when I left and indeed of course continues to do so so that was really exciting on the side I found myself getting more and more drawn into community activities of various kinds I was very involved um locally in the
Fight to stop hs2 and we’ve all seen what’s happened there and I also became very engaged as you say in the community activity to try and stop the building of some totally inappropriate Le sized wind turbines uh you can argue with me for you did at the time um in ardley and
That was actually my first Hands-On as was probably very obvious exposure to the planning inspectorate and I remember spending three Happy Days in a Cricut Pavilion in bambur with you arguing our socks off um as to whether or not these things should be built and of course I’m very
Pleased every time I go past odley which is daily I’m very pleased that they haven’t been built you’re probably a bit less so I should think Paul oh oh well far far from it I I I won the inquiry but the win tur burs weren’t built so essentially it was a
Score draw as far as I’m concerned well as as far as I’m concerned I think some of the conditions we may have put on their building may have had something to do with the fact that they were what I take though genuinely um from experience is obviously I enjoyed meeting you and
The other bars involved it was good to see a different part of the system operating and a part of the system that is effectively Public Law um and and definitely had read across from what I was doing in my day job and and the bit
Of law that I love and and know about and um it was also good to see that a residents group could genuinely mount a serious challenge yeah and put its points across and explain why the the conditions of building were necessary and that was in reality what led to
These things not being built so in a funny sort of way it showed the system working and I thought that was that was quite an interesting lesson to take away um it was it was also for me politically a very interesting experience because we were able in the course of a few months
To Corral expertise from from probably four or five Villages which was extraordinary we had a couple of lawyers one of them became a really very good planning lawyer you may remember ruena miger um I think hadn’t even done pupilage um and was very new to the system we found
Some surveyors we found some noise experts we found some Engineers we found a very nice chap who’s since become very involved in local politics all all of these people were always my neighbors but they became my friends during the course of this this campaign my my
Children still remember it it was it was a long time ago now 13 or 14 years ago but it was all consuming like all local campaigns are and I remember um fighting the might that that was your clients um in a way that was was possible but did
Feel quite difficult at times and I remember thinking that local politics was worth it and that was definitely one of the reasons that I then decided to put my name forward to be the MP for banur when the vacancy came up that that really is interesting that
Is is I feel slightly Vindicated having jokery put that to you a moment or two ago of course that’s not your only brush with the with the planning system um I think subsequent to that inquiry there was then an incinerated proposal that was that was close to Villages so you
Got involved in terms of that but from your involv at the time what what parts of the system would you want to change what what did you think actually that’s not particularly working well from the residents perspective I I do think it’s really important that the resident voice
Is heard but I think we found ways of making sure that that that happens so the incinerator was built I wasn’t nearly as involved in that campaign um I’m not saying I would have stopped it had I been um but I think as ever with planning law if people can see an end
Goal that they know is something to do with them that they need so we all produce rubbish every day and and the incinerator has made great steps locally to make sure that it’s part of the community it invites in schools and Community groups all the time I’ve been
Often I’ve been a really frequent visitor and um I think if people can see why something is needed and they’re sure that the right traffic mitigations for example are in place that’s always a big issue around us I think they’re prepared to accept it it’s when they can see
Nothing in it for them and no connection to their lives at all that people um find new development really quite difficult to take but I I do think the government is is taking steps to make sure that the local voice is heard and I I think that’s very important for us
Locally probably about 40% of my postag is about planning issues they might not look quite like that they might look like worries about finding the right medical provision for example but but a lot of that is rooted in growth we are a very very high growth area um and we’ve
Changed enormously since I was a little girl in our area and I think it’s important we’re quite proud of that actually and and we’re proud of the growth that’s taken place I I built my own house um over 20 years ago now and and that’s very much part of what we are
Locally what we do do need to do is own it and make sure it’s growth that suits us uh one thing I did learn during the course of that inquiry my inquiry against you was never ever call it cherwell always charwell it varies it depends if you’re born north of a place
Called adury or south of a place called adury and and if you’re well I was born in B so I was born North but I was brought up just south in in a village called ano and we definitely call it charwell all right well I was born well
North of ano so yes I I’m right to call it charwell then but I’ve spent the last couple of weeks actually in charwell um in relation to an inquiry there so wearing a constituency uh MP’s um hat um so that was that’s a scheme which is essentially a speculative development
Promoted on the base of the plan Le system isn’t delivering a five-year land Supply um and that there’s a need for additional housing in the short term because the local plan’s taken so long to come on um one of the the issues that that was Stark about that inquiry which
Is different from a number of number of other inquiries that I’ve been involved in is that was really good humored good tempered uh everybody was polite to each other there’s so many times where in that in the situation when they you know it’s almost pantomine villain when you’re at inquiry acting for an
Appellant and you’re almost overly heroic if you’re acting for authorities um how do we take the heat out of um what really should be an objective decision in the public interest how what what do you think we should do to do that well I do think it’s all about
People feel feeling that their views are considered and their voice are heard and I think that the work that we’ve done on the local plan and that we’re still doing on the current local plan is all part of that so I know you’ve been talking about um an application to do
With Hayford Park and that is very much part of the local consensus that we’ve tried to build about growth in our area so for a long time the the charwell or cherwell plan if you like has to be to try to Donut our two big towns of bamry and Bist
With development and also to build on this big Brownfield site used to be um a place where Cold War airplanes flew from um very near where I live called Hayford Park and it’s it is Brownfield there’s a very very long Airfield there and there is lots of space for housing and we’ve
Got a lot of um planning permissions already in place for housing and I know that the developer who you were acting for who is who is one of our better developers locally we get no complaints about the quality of their houses um was Keen that we continue to build on the
Brown field and not the Green Field now that’s something as local residents we like and we approve of um we we do have a sort of I it’s never been formalized it’s rarely articulated actually but we do have a sort of compact with charwell that they will try to preserve the rural
Nature of our Villages and build in these the donuts and on Hayford Park Brownfield and that’s worked quite well for the last um well 20 OD years really and that’s one of the reasons that we have tolerated a very high level of growth locally um and the fact that some
Of these developments are really very high quality Dorchester being a good example of of the quality of the build um and the other thing that that that’s gone really well locally is some of the self-build stuff so Graven Hill Kevin McLoud made a Telly program about it and
Some of the build exclamation mark self- finish housing which charwell owns in the towns that’s gone really well too and I do think if if we can bring people along with us then we will succeed it’s when people feel done to that they can’t cope with growth and I do think that
Charwell should be used as a sort of example of of good and sustainable growth in the Maine and the fact that my constituency is effectively being hared at the next election is Testament to just how much growth there’s been wow that that really is quite dramatic um okay so so move moving away
From constituency work to um to MP work so how different is your role as um attorney general compared to your former role in the GLD I mean obviously you’ve gone gone from lawyer to um politician to lawyer really nice it’s like going back to work it’s just the same same people there and
Of course my cohort because I joined in 97 my cohort are now at the top of the GLD um treasury sister I’ve known for many years she used to be my boss um and a a lot of my contemporaries are now effectively running the show so that’s
Been really nice the work hasn’t changed much there’s more of it but the the substantial Public Law elements are exactly the same um we just have to address the principles to new problems every day it feels very much like going back to work for me it’s it’s a really
Happy homecoming I must say when I first became an MP I did miss law to the extent to which I joined the Justice select committee and had very very happy time for three or four years on that just to keep my hand in and I then did a
Couple of other um Prem ministerial and ministerial posts one during brexit helping the leader of the house and that was that that was quite legal let me tell you and then as as Ag and fish Minister during the final TCA agreements that that was quite legal too and I have
Felt that being a lawyer in in the houses of Parliament is really useful I mean after all a lot of what we do is making law all day so that that’s been good all the way through but I must say coming back to my old work as AG is
Brilliant and I’m I’ve loved it fantastic I’m just going to skip you a question I was going to ask you um I’m going to come back to so let me skip to the next one because I’m very interested in that last observation being a lawyer in the House of Commons is really useful
Obviously the House of Commons part and part of the legislature therefore legislating to inform what we do on a day-to-day basis it’s always struck me as as interesting that a substantial proportion of members of of the house both houses are former members of the bar or current members bar that aren’t
Practicing um uh orbe it the House of Commons data apparently shows that the proportion has been in Decline over the last decade or so so drastically one 13 13% yeah whereas in the states or in a lot of other legislators around the world that’re they’re more like 30 to 40
Per. you’re obviously seeing my question coming sorry no no no no it’s it’s it’s no it’s perfectly fine that’s the transparency my cross-examination so I interested in terms of why do you think it is in terms of lawyers going into whatever legislature either here or the
States um is there some Synergy uh is it the skill set or is it that that we just um why do you think it what is it you think we bring to the party well I think lawyers are usually quite interested in Justice and fairness and that’s a good thing and I I
Think I I mean call me star I but I think most politicians go into politics for very good reasons they genuinely want to represent their communities often and more and more as people are very local so a lot of my new colleagues are are very much formed by their area
And are there motivated by wanting to do the best um for their area which I think is is getting better and it’s is basically a very good thing um I think lawyers like talking in public and they they’re not scared by that we’re also not scared by legislation
And we pick it up and read it and grapple with it in a way that some of my colleagues don’t frankly and and don’t know what things need mean and need things explained to them you know which is fair enough they’re not trained to read this stuff like we are so I do
Think there are synergies I I really do and I do think we bring useful things to the parties we can usually critic um crystalize an argument we can usually understand the other side’s point of view I mean these are all part of our training and those are definitely useful
Things in Parliament very little change happens unless you build a consensus around it first and and that’s all part of what we’re used to doing and certainly in in the planning world you’re very much used to doing so other just going back to the question I was going to ask you am
Interesting terms of your point about 40% of the post bag tends to be about planning as a constituency MP why you’re also sitting in the cabinet how how did you Bal and and just to just as a heads up your website your personal your sorry your parliamentary website which is got
All about the Strategic frail interchange really interesting in relations to that because that was a huge resource when I had to come to look at that quite recently but how do you balance um what you do as a constituency MP in relation to you know uh politics
With a small p with what you do as a Cabinet member are there some sensitivities or how how do you balance that yeah well there are but it’s it’s not usually difficult you’re there to represent your constituents a lot of what you bring to the party as as a
Local and not just a local MP but somebody who is really local I was literally born in banry and we Farm um in the village called ano my my dad still lives in the house I was brought up in and I live a couple of miles down
The road um it’s local knowledge and actually this the Strategic um the freight IND inter change which we hope won’t happen I was able to bring literal local knowledge to the the proposed developers which they didn’t have and I was able to say have you considered the
Gauge on the railway have you considered the water table you know I know as a local farmer how soggy those fields are um I know how small that Railway is I know where the bridges on that Railway are I know how the traffic builds up at certain times of day on that roundabout
As you try to get into the M40 so that knowledge is not necessarily as a local MP but it is very much informed by my position if you like as a local and a local who’s always been interested in how communities hang together and what
Makes them tick so um that that I think is useful and that is quite different from acting as a cabinet minister I do try not to get involved in planning locally if it’s a small issue it’s only these really big existential issues for the local community that I do have a
View on but I must say that it it’s partly because we are such an enormously high growth area planning is a big deal for my constituents and that’s fair enough well it just picking that point up and now wearing your hat as a daughter of a farmer um your
Constituency not withstanding it’s a high growth area has also got a a very large rural Hinterland um now we’ve got a lot of Chang in relation to agriculture both post exit but also we’ve got biodiversity net gain we’ve got nutrient offsetting we’ve got ways in which the farming industry has an
Opportunity to if you will take a a commercial uh Advantage from how the planning system operates so I’m interested in knowing about how you view that sort of change from your perspective as the daughter of a local farmer well I genuinely think that our post brexit farming policy is very
Exciting and is a way to move our farming industry which I’m very proud and and very much part of into a place that is better for the environment in the long term and I’ve seen that with the way our new deer incentives are able to make me as a farmer behave
Differently from the way that we used to behave one of the things we’ve learned to do may sound basic but is genuinely game-changing is plant cover crops over winter so in our grain producing fields we now use cover crops that really really helps carbon capture but it also reduces runoff which has big
Implications to planning law and you know if we could farm land is 70% of the land in this country if we can make incremental change which improves biodiversity and carbon capture then we are really doing something in the long term for the public good and I’m very
Proud of the way that our def policies are moving Us in that direction and I’ve seen as a bog standard Farm if you like how we are being shifted into ways that my grandfather would have thought were perfectly normal but the way that my dad
Farmed in the 80s and 90s was not like that and was not as environmentally friendly um I think the shift from from Arab only back to mixed farming is one that is interesting it doesn’t mean we all have to own livestock but we can encourage other people’s livestock to
Graze over the winter that can help we hope for example with flea Beetle on R seed rape I think of all of these changes which my grandfather frankly would probably have laughed at me and said yeah of course of course we do that um are for the good and I’m I think this
Is a really exciting time for British farming I would say Minister for a long time yes and and Ag and fish means Agriculture and Fisheries as I understand it I had to think about that for a moment thank you very much vict that’s that’s all of my questions Mary
Do you have a question for Victoria I do thank you very much Paul hi Mary um hi my question is is about training um we know that local counselors receive training on their duties in public life um albeit some of us might think that that should be more extensive and
Perhaps begin um pre-election but my question is what if any training and support do um WN toe MPS receive um and is it adequate because I’m Keen that we you know we should be encouraging shouldn’t we High Caliber applicants from all all backgrounds and really I just wonder whether the pro
Whether more professional support is required so certainly in the conservative party there is quite a good training system that for women called women to win which has been brought up because uh David Cameron in particular identified that he didn’t have enough female candidates and he actively went
Out and looked for them and then trained them to succeed in the selection process and that’s led to me having some really fantastic um women colleagues who I suspect otherwise would not have been found Jillian Keegan among them for example she said that publicly so um and I that other parties have something
Quite similar and I know that the the bodies work together to make sure that they’re providing the same sort of training so that gets you as far as selection if you’re female I suspect that there are other bits of diversity and inequality inequality that that also get reached by specific training and and
Outreach bodies and I think that’s all to the good frankly the more diverse the intake into par the better and the more we represent our local communities um in terms of when you arrive in Parliament where so I arrived in 2015 and we did have a sort of
Induction I I suspect to or three days I struggled to remember the whole thing was such a blur and you get given so much Tech information you you know people to help you no office I mean you know there’s an awful lot to take in I
Do Wonder um and I often think this with staff in the office as well if it’s worth induction at the beginning and then revisiting it a few months later when you’ve worked out the tech the office how how the pass works and where the toilet is basically because
Otherwise you’re it’s just too much to take in right at the beginning so I do think there’s an argument from that I think they have learned from my induction in 2015 and and improveed things since then but you’d have to ask a new MP what happens at the moment we
Also which is really brilliant have a system of mentors so each MP gets a sort of Buddy which I mean obviously it’s only as good as the Buddy wants it to be but that really helps and I’d like to think as well that MPS continue to
I don’t know nurture and grow each other in the course of their professional development certainly I’ve got a couple of people I keep my eye on with with the new intake and I suspect that’s often the case I also with with people who aren’t MPS yet and may never be
Definitely have a series of mentees and I think this is an idea I got from the bar in particular who I’m very fond of and and Keen to develop I was really lucky at the bar so I had brilliant P Masters who I’m still in touch with Ian berett who was the Lord
Chief and and Dominic grieve who was AG I still see them both very regularly and I’m very fond of them and my mentor I was also very lucky was lord judge who’s died recently and he was brilliant and certainly as recently as six months ago
Would would check in with me and see how I was doing and talk through ethical issues if I wanted to and and I think that sort of lifelong mentoring is something that bar does extraordinarily well actually indeed indeed and I mean I’m sitting in a law firm which I started
Some years ago and all of the things that you’ve described are are routine good practices here I I I I just feel actually that um as professional politicians you ought to have access to a professional Secretariat and that ought to be um a sort of non-political um group of professional and
Administrators that we are to a certain extent we have the house staff who provide an HR function for example and I’ve always found them to be fantastic when I’ve needed them um whether it’s something you know an IT issue or a a member of Staff issue which is really a
Complicated HR issue and they’ve always been full of advice and help and support and I think that function has developed over recent years yes well thank you very much thank you Paul thank you Mary Chris do you have a question for Victoria I do Victoria
Hello hi I love the t-shirt and and and the background wow getting really getting into Christmas my my kids thought this t-shirt would uh would be good for today the the um the uh attorney general we’ve got two in my Chambers actually or two of your recent predecessors Jeremy Wright who I think
Is the MP for korth and the fabulous Suella braan as well was in our Chambers um and we almost had some more um we had a Neil shastry Hurst who was the oh yes he’s I saw him at the weekend he’s a a resident of bamry H right yeah because
He was the candidate for we but obviously there was a huge Landslide victory for the liberal Democrats but um he one interesting people sorry to interrupt your question we will get to it in a sec he’s been both a medic and then a a lawyer and I always think they
Bring bring something else to the party and and he’s been in the Army so he’s a very a very strong candidate just probably not in in weem um my question then is what is the hardest thing about being an MP um you want so much for your area and
You it is your job to do your best for your area and to make their voice heard in Westminster and and you feel that very deeply I think and you know you we’re not successful in every funding bid we we we want to be but we’re not
Always and it is making sure that you are always thinking strategically about what is best for your area and not just what people are shouting loudest about which might be Animal Welfare might be forestry it’s it’s very odd what people write to you about compared with what
The majority of locals really care about um so yeah I you do feel quite a sense of responsibility being a local MP for me at the moment it’s simply being able to spend enough time there because of course I am the jobbing lawyer for government I often have to be in
Westminster if the Prime Minister wants legal advice I have to literally leap on the train and come um and that’s the job and and that’s fine but it does mean I’m not at home as much as I used to be okay thank you very much thank you
Paul thank you very much indeed Chris I’m gonna go to Charlie next now Charlie will claim that he’s in Dubai he’s not he’s actually on a long weekend in Western supermare so don’t believe the fact he tries to talk up his life it’s pathetic Charlie do you have a question
For Victoria I do I do in fact I have two as scratching my head so Victor the first one relates to another aspect of your role which is um as Advocate General for Northern Ireland yeah now a number of our of our fellow me ping profession lawyers and Consultants
Undertake work in Northern IR in fact Paul and I both called the northern Irish bar so so you indeed I know I’m Keen to know um what you’ve made of your experience of of the northern Irish legal system and are there any lessons that we can learn from it here in
England well it’s lovely in that it’s very close um a bit like the Edinburgh system as well actually and they operate instead of out of Chambers out of a library so everybody sees each other pretty much most days you really are only as good as your last case because
Everybody knows everything about what’s going on and and all of that is good um but it’s also I suspect quite well you have a reputation to maintain and I suspect it’s quite a strain as well I also had a really interesting experience recently in that I went to the Irish bar
And was was whed and died by them and did various speaker meetings and that was an another um important but relatively close legal pool um and and I think all of them have I mean of course they have strength they’re great citizens they produced some great
Lawyers who Bick can talk in court and have very strong reputations um I I’ve really valued my engagement with all of them and actually in the office we we have um the AG for Scotland who who is such an asset he spent 25 years at the criminal bar in
Scotland is a silk there and really brings something to my public law party that I otherwise wouldn’t have he is I mean he uses a slightly different terminology from time to time but we we tend to understand each other and one of the great strengths I think has been
That me and the solicor general recently changed but I’m very pleased with the new one as well as the old one and the AG for Scotland is that we tend to produce legal advice together um particularly when it’s controversial and getting three people with quite different legal backgrounds into the
Same place is quite a useful exercise in itself and we hang out in Parliament up a legal Corridor where all our offices are next to each other and we tend to keep the doors pretty open and that is a real strength as well because Challenge
And talking to each other as we all know from chambers or or law firms is very much key to how our profession gets itself into the best legal argument and I really value um having them around your your office is literally in the heart of parliament physically which I
Think is it’s it’s it’s it’s supposed to be deeply symbolic so we’re not on the ministerial Corridor with the other ministers because we’re independent and we have to be able to give independent legal advice and we’re also halfway between the Lords and the commons so
We’re supposed to be able to fa face in both directions and actually a lot of what I do is what the whips um euphemistically call handling and I prefer I prefer to describe explaining legal advice I think how I describe it but an awful lot of our job um all three
Law Officers is explaining the legal position um particularly in new legislation to members of the Lords um and the commons and of course in the Lords we’ve got some pretty good pretty good lawyers so we we engage with them a great deal and that’s something um which
Is a great honor actually indeed indeed um the second question relates to remote hearings um planning hearings and inquiries went entirely uh virtual like pretty much all other litigation think except s serious jewelry trials now we’ve gone back in our planning world to disputes largely being heard in person
Say for things like case management conferences let me just know from your perspective what do you see the future role of digital technology such as remote hearings in litigation is it for the good for the ill or somewhere in between well I’ve always been quite Keen
So even before I left the bar which was in 2014 we were doing phone hearings and I remember particularly for interim applications and I remember thinking at the time wow this is the future this is great and my job was often to get injunctions at weekends um on behalf of
The government and that uh just revolutionized life when we could do that on the phone it really did um having said that I’m married to a judge as you know and he doesn’t half like having a witness in front of him particularly one whose credibility is is
Under review shall we say during covid he conducted hearings um there was there was always a great row as to who should take up more of the Wi-Fi at home we had University exams a levels hearings and then whatever I was doing in Parliament all competing for for whatever bandwidth
Was available in oxyer it was very tricky to know who won sometimes but he was conducting hearings at home which was fine and it was good because it meant that his court doesn’t have a backlog and that definitely needed to happen and I’m sure we all learned
Things that we needed to learn but occasionally when you do have a witness particularly a witness whose credibility is under threat you you do need or it’s better if you can eyeball them also I’m I’m very keen that we look at new and creative ways of doing the outside court
Stuff that happens quite naturally outside court but of course doesn’t when you just log on for the remote and we need to find a way of baking in settlement opportunities if you’re not all meeting each other in person but I’m a big believer in technology making our
Lives better I really am um and as somebody who worked flexibly when I had small children I I was I was if you like an early adopter while being very un Tey I I approve of what tech can do for law so I I mean as long as we go forward in
A way that is sens and we keep questioning why I don’t think we should all be going off to court for no reason if if we can do something better online I really don’t I mean frankly you could perhaps be dealing with Dubai from Western super mayor I don’t know but if
It was if it was a question of settling it then maybe they did need you there in person and that’s it actually is I can’t say too much about it it’s an arbitration but it’s actually a remote hearing but with various people all over the world but
The three arbitrators felt we ought to be in the same place to confer and so we could ask questions and and that’s maybe got you in a good place I do think I mean travel is still worth it definitely and and I well the last time I traveled
For a case was to the hag to do the Russia Ukraine icj opening and that was definitely worth it it gave me an opportunity to meet the other 31 States who are broadly on Ukraine’s side it gave me an opportunity to see the way the Russian put their case um and you
Know you do pick things up from meeting real people in real life that you don’t online but having said that there is definitely more we can do remotely and I I hope we will keep not just because we have to because of the pandemic but I hope we will keep testing the boundaries
Of that I really do thank you I did warn you Victoria that he’d try and talk up Dubai in fact in the backdrop is the opening to the chip shop that Charlie’s working at at the weekend thank you Charlie do you have our final question for
Victoria I do thank you Paul Victoria um obviously with your background working in TSA and since entering Parliament this isn’t a political question in any way but how how have you found members irrespec of a political party um members approach to the rule of law how would you characterize how how seriously or
Not members of parliament understand and accept the rule of law I think they do broadly I think the type of MP that we’ve got is changing a bit and I i’ I hinted at that earlier in that we have more local MPS we perhaps have fewer history and PPE graduates so we
Still have a very very large number and they of course are people who are um academically interested in how the Constitution hangs together in the rule of law but the the new type of MP can also bring something to this table not least because they’ve often had experience in local government and oh
Boy and well you all know from the planning system do you see rule of law issues read in tooth and Claw in in local government and and I think that can be quite helpful background actually so they might not call it the rule of law but they know that um the way that
The constitution hangs together really matters I think perhaps all MPS feel this but I think since I’ve been elected in 2015 we’ve had an extraordinary amount of constitutional change and that’s brought these issues um into the public Consciousness in a way that I you know I don’t necessarily wish it had all
Happened and I certainly don’t wish a pandemic had happened but um I think that’s quite a good thing for people understanding the importance of the way our constitution works I thought um Miller and proration was the first time that many us had said those sentences
Out loud if you like we we might have thought it academically and even legally but that didn’t mean we we’ crystallize what we what we thought about which bit of the institutions did what I think actually the the um death of the late Queen and and the coronation of a new
King has also helped us to think about that side of our extraordinary Constitution and yeah yeah I I it’s it’s up there it’s talked about and that’s got to be good hasn’t it even if people are continually pushing against it what what I’ve taken from the the tumult if you
Like since 2016 has been that the constitution works thank you thank you very much Paul Victoria thank you so much we could talk for hours there’s so many different routes that we could go down we could create an entire podcast series uh of our own in relations to this but I
Appreciate that you are extraordinarily busy um and this has been recorded in the run up to Christmas so busy as a constituency MP as a as a member of a family as the Attorney General so thank you so much for giving us your time it is massively appreciated and I look
Forward to next time I encounter you somewhere near Arley and fot oh yeah hope but it’s lovely to see you all and please go and run the planning bar it’s missed you for half hour so much Victoria bye [Applause] You oh