The Telegraph Rugby Podcast: England a work in progress, Ireland lay down marker

#sixnations #englandrugby #irelandrugby

The 2024 Six Nations is underway and it was defending champions Ireland who sent a message to the rest of the competition by recording their biggest win away in France, securing a bonus-point along the way in Marseille.

Ben, Charlie and Charles look back on the opening weekend, including that win for Ireland and a nervy victory for England away in Rome. However, Charlie is feeling optimistic about the work being done behind the scenes by head coach Steve Borthwick and Felix Jones. There’s praise also for Ethan Roots, who impressed on debut.

Plus, we discuss a chaotic game in Cardiff as Scotland almost blew a 27-point lead against Wales.

Morning everyone hope you enjoyed the start of the Six Nations as much as we all did we are all back on English soil but due to the train strikes I’m actually sat here in an empty Studio looking up at a screen where I have one Charlie Morgan hi Charlie hello Coy and

I’ve got one Charles richardon hello Charles hello and then joining myself Ben CO’s to recap all the action from the open round of the Six Nations where were you jents if I start with Charles actually where were you Charles this weekend I was in I was in glorious Mars

On Friday night you know catching some rays 60 Dees it didn’t feel particularly Six Nations here I must say it was it’s not what we’re used to in the Six Nations no gloves no scarf um no Guinness it was it was all it it was all very Prov onell sounds horrendous

Actually with the uh with the lack of Guinness did Mar deliver on the atmosphere that we we biged it up a bit last week didn’t we was it as good as you hoped it would be ye is yes until as we will come on to the red card and the

Way that the game panned out meant that it it didn’t necessarily whip up the French crowd into a frenzy Charlie where were you I was in Rome which was decidedly like to follow on from Charles’s point it felt like a super Saturday in mid-march it was gorgeous cloudless and I ticked off the

Bretta tiasu and popped a game of rugby in right at the end it was brilliant I’m glad you two have picked up the the weather because Cardiff was absolutely atrocious and and I’ve never been happier than when I I walked about 20 minutes from where I parked my car to

The ground and I got there and my coat was was stopping my glasses didn’t have a spare sort of bit that wasn’t covered in a raindrop it was awful so well done to everybody for agreeing that they should shut the roof so that that’s good

We we covered all three bases then so we we’re all particularly well informed to chat about our respective games if we just before we dive into talking about how England got on in Rome I just wondered if you had a sort of favorite moment from the weekend that’s sort of

Stuck with you as you review how the last few days went Charlie if I start with you what what sort of leaps out It Italy’s second try we’ll get into kind of what a a cluster of Errors it was from England and and sort of in in unfamiliarity with that defensive system

That they’ve got but the way Italy took it uh gorgeous thomasen finished in it off but a lovely wrap between um Pao galy and brex in in Midfield just to just to make England looked totally clueless and that was where the the atmosphere was at its kind of at it at

Its kind of peak and it kind of it kind of got more subdued from there but that was just a brilliant moment Charles how about you uh well I was going to say the same thing so on the spot I’ve thought of uh a secondary one which was has got

To be that that phenomenal well second half Resurgence hasn’t it I know I mean it’s a bit more there’s a lot of moments there but I think just if if you think back to the weekend that was what will what will stand the test of time is is

Okay Wales won the game but sorry lost the game but um they didn’t win the game and but it felt at the end as if bizarrely they had there was almost an element of Scotland would a disappointed for banishing a 22-year hudo so that entire crazy second half would be my my

Moment of the I was going to say that’s an acceptable slip up because it did feel like it was an opposite situation it felt like Wales won and Scotland had lost um also from that game for me was um almost a surreal moment where it was

Chaos on the pitch and I suddenly looked up at the big screen and they had a shot of William defo the actor just sat there in a box watching the game sort of being broadcast on the whole ground and of all the people I expected to see on the on

The big screen during that second half he was not one of them so that was very strange do you know the link absolutely no idea in nothing nothing’s kind of leaked out afterwards no indication from any Camp about why he was there but it was uh

Yeah it was quite a I can come in with a secondary one actually which given more time P solo twangy debut slightly not at the top of the list of priorities but it was just nice to see him get on after all the chat and he looked really good

If a little unfit but when he was in and around the ball he looked really special and obviously Manu Manu there at attendance watching which was which was which was sweet I’ve I’ve up I played against two two laggies um and I’m really glad I’ll never ever ever have to

Get near him uh what he looked huge didn’t he it sounds really basic he just looked so much bigger than the so many other players on the field just from sheer kind of stature was remarkable um who who put that body who somebody somebody sort of Road blocked him off

The first the they sent him off the top of a line out didn’t they somebody and it was a really good tackle but was itow terrifying it might have been yeah it was a speed hump sort of just lie there and just hope and pray yeah sometimes

That’s the best way um well listen lots to talk about from those games let’s start with How England got on with Rome they won which is a positive but a few sort of things to address I think okay Charlie it’s the first game of a new cycle so I know people might uh

Occasionally be a little bit impatient with England but I think you sort of have to accept that you know there’s new systems bedding in it’s going to take a bit of time was that sort of how you felt afterwards and did you feel more positive or negative about what you

Saw I I was on the positive side even sort of compared to the people around me at a half time you sort of have a conf flab don’t you the people you sit sitting near to and everybody was a little bit more negative than than I was

I just I went into it thinking right it’s clearly there’s clearly going to be not only new systems here in a new defensive system and a new outlook on the way they attack but also you factoring also the new faces five five debutants in the in the 23 and then also

The the sort of late disruption that they’ve had over the course of this two week preparation which is which is short anyway um in key positions so Alex Mitchell we thought we thought wasn’t going to um play because of an infection he had on his in his leg but he was a

Late he sort of passed the late fitness test and and was fit um but yeah all so all things considered considering also the C of Italy and how settled they look both as both in terms of personnel and the way they were going to play um yeah

I was impressed actually there were a lot of questions from reita sort of I mean it’s very early to be wondering about whether these systems are going to work for England and and so I really would try and encourage everyone not to rush to too many judgments too quickly

But but a lot of people just asking a fairly I guess a fair enough question do they have the Personnel to carry out this defensive system that Felix Jones wants to play where it’s significantly more aggressive than perhaps England have been used to in recent years I

Think it’s a compromise and I think it’s a compromise as we said from the beginning of of keeping those experienced players in and then maybe blooding others who are more suited to it so for example I’ve been I’ve been convinced from the minute that St B mentioned um Manny feoso in early

January that he was more attractive a prospect because he suited what Felix Jones wanted and he was playing that way for exitor and um so you have that that’s one one side and then you want obviously um the experience and how well Elliot Daly suits he might not suit the

System as well but he offers experience he offers that left left boot on the left wing um look at somewhere else like so a theory just just kind of thinking out loud here when when I saw that question was it’s being it was quite conspicuous wasn’t it that Rafi Quirk

Was named as a player who was was um who was sort of going to join the join the uh Squad despite not being fit who’s he learned from at sales uh he’s sort of f cler mark I isn’t he really kind of a small but super committed super

Tenacious Defender who who’ll be able to play that role of um pushing up and being that kind of spy out of the defensive line so I think it’s going to be a compromise but over I think what we’ll see over the four years and again and the compromis is that they want

Experence to kind of win those games and keep momentum over the four years but the journey towards the Journey of four years is going to be getting a team that is suited to to individual roles Within These systems and and even without even without sort of bringing in new

Personnel I think there is an argument that that they can do it anyway that that South Africa semi-final loss was probably England’s you know best defensive performance of the past well God knows how many years um it was tenacious it was aggressive and it was everything that Steve borwick and Felix

Jones want you know want want England to be without the ball but now they have Felix Jones in in their camp and they’ve got sort of more time to embed this this structure and they’ve got more expertise too and I think they proved that the foundations are there the building

Blocks are there um I think you know George Martin coming back in when fit depending on how long he can stay fit is going to be big for them in that regard um because his you know his defense is his is his super strength really and him

Coming back in will just continue this this building they got they got a couple of bits wrong in the first half and it exposed them and Italy are good enough to exploit it but in the second half when they sort of ironed out those creases they defended

Excellently I had two thoughts on it which was firstly that obviously it’s uh it might take a little while and there might be a few glaring errors defensively from England but it is a system that works because it has been the backbone of two rubby World Cup win

So that so stick with it and the other one was was Tommy Freeman’s quotes afterwards where he was sort of saying how for a player like him coming from northampton’s defensive system obviously he was adapting to it a little bit more in England it only had I think they said

Three training sessions really working on it in Spain um sort of as a group so he was sort of suggesting for a player like him it’ll take time whereas for players like xter as Charlie’s talked about with foso they’re used to kind of playing that aggressive Blitzer out of

The line to to pressure people and so I think it’s just going to take a little bit of time speaking Tommy Freeman very impressive helped create Elliot Daily’s try Charlie he kind of had a roaming a roaming role didn’t he and actually that helped create the extra man for D’s try in in

The backline what did you make of how he played really impressive he it’s funny isn’t it because there’s this bridge between the still this bridge uh between the Jones and both airas and and Jones brought him in um and then sort of dropped him like a

Stone after that well no he didn’t sorry he he he brought him in played him two games in in test in um in the test Series in in Australia he looked really good and then he was injured for the start of the next autumn and then played

And was um yanked at halime in what turned out to be Jones’s final game so he’s come back after that that was his first test appearance after that and he looks so assured and he looked like that time away has really helped him um looked a bit bigger if we’re going to

Plug that um p on northampton’s bow cup again um but I haven’t heard about that us actually that’s really it’s really interesting that you flag his quotes on the defense I actually thought he looked really comfortable in that in that system he’s maybe that the system is

Quite um is quite quite a advantage to be quite a small Nimble Winger in that system because you can change direction and you can sort of push off if the ball’s gone beyond you um look at someone like Colby and and ctly arenza they really um and that so that agility

Is really important but Freeman is is kind of deceptively agile um as you saw from when he not only cut the line off Freddy Stewart to to make the initial break but then also went on that outside Arc to to free his arm to feed da for

For the offload so yeah I was I was really impressive but really impressed by Freeman sorry but then again it was kind of inevitable given how well he’d gone for Saints too Charles just on um Ethan Roots that’s a very good debut isn’t it she come away with the nice

Player of the match medal and you know you’re winning plaudits and getting nine out of 10 in player ratings like he seemed to be what what was great about him well he just he just gave England something that they’ve been missing and that it you know they they still

Continue to sort of lack it really but he was certainly he certainly made an impact in terms of the ball carrying States and we’ve been we’ve you know we’ve lamented the lack of English ball carriers on this podcast frequently and we’ve you know it’s telling that that

Number eight at the minute and England’s best player in the world cup is basically an open side flanker who has been repurposed into a number eight and ball carrying in the tight not necessarily one of his strengths with Alice genj missing as well it looked all

A bit sort of bit Bleak on that front um um but will Stewart stepped up the two second rows were outstanding Ethan Roots was excellent in that regard um a very very solid debut I actually sort of would have lent more towards Tommy Freeman or Maro toj as man of the match

But I no arguments with with um with roots at all and I don’t think many people were expecting that necessarily his form has been good for exitor but I don’t necessarily think that we were expecting him to have that impact on test rugby so quickly maybe Charlie

Would disagree maybe he had it had it sort of sort of predicted all along no I would I wouldn’t say I would I think I think he suited as as a foil for Earl as as you’ve kind of touched on there as a fall for Earl I think he that really

Worked because he’s that big bopping Blind Side that England don’t really have I was really in interested to see how quickly England brought into brought him into the game he took the first line out the knee and he was really prominent in that regard taking pressure off chess

And ches and at toi as that third jumper he was a more natural third jumper than other options that have that have been there and that allows Underhill and Earl to be sort of picked together too doesn’t it so I I didn’t feel like he’ I

Was surpris was I surprised I was I was surprised Maybe by Just how influential he was but that’s a credit to sort of his personality as much as anything but I was expecting him to be in the mix just because of how nice a fo he would

Have been for other guys around and Steve por Tegra telegraphed his selection by picking him up so much as well yeah I mean we knew he was a line out option didn’t we going into this but I was also sort of taken back by how regularly he was used and sort of how

Much of a source of good ball he was on that front especially with um marrow and chessum who are both so Adept in the air I was I was surprised too it’s quite satisfying when a player on debut performs um so seamlessly like that and we were getting Whispers a few weeks

Back weren’t we that he might be the the solution at six when we were trying to work out how England would shape up in the back row he was clearly a success part of me just wondered how this conversation would be going because we all seem quite positive how it would be

Going if england had lost and I think that’s a credit to how well Italy played I know that late try kind of made the scoreboard look a bit tighter than than it was Charlie we kind of I’m a bit bored of sort of getting excited about Italy and being hopeful and and would

Like to see them actually string few wins together but did you see enough from them in this first game under Gonzalo started to to feel positive about the direction they’re heading in I did but I didn’t agree with Jamie George saying that he wouldn’t be surprised if they lost if they won two

Games this tournament I would be surprised still if they won two games this tournament and if you look at it what they they’d be targeting Scotland the home game against Scotland and then going to Wales still going to be still going to be a big kind of effort to do that and

They’ve traditionally started well when that cohesion of that big beneton um contingent helps them yeah it’s going to be going to be really interesting you still feel as though they they’ll be really disappointed I think with that second half because they they were subdued by a kind of an unfamiliar

England defense weren’t they having having cut them apart a couple of times in the first in the first half they didn’t really they’ll feel like they didn’t fire enough shots um well enough in that in that second half they’ll be they’ll be frustrated well and also arguably

They should have been further ahead at half time you know they they they were they were the better side in the first half I don’t think many people would sort of disagree with that um but then they only they ended up going into that interval only three points ahead and you

Look at it and you’re going okay that’s one of the best halves that Italy have had for a while because they really struggled at the World Cup um and yet they’re only leading by three at home against a New England side who were always going to have a few teething

Problems and were only going to get better um and so yeah they were stifled in the second half but I did think England have been sort of craftily craftily good at at building at cutting this deficit and and reducing the sort of scoreboard pressure on them and in

Terms of just thinking about England and looking ahead if they’re going to make any changes for the Wales game would Ellis gen potentially come back would he start or would they stick with Joe Mara starting how did that kind of look in terms of that front row Charles and and

Could you see there any other changes that could potentially be made it’s it’s a tricky one because I think obviously Ellis G just part of the leadership group and Vice Captain and clearly highly rated by by Steve borwick but would if you start Ellis geng does

That mean that Dan Cole has to start at tight head would you want Mara and Cole coming off the bench together knowing what we know about their sort of you know they’re excellent in the tight and but are they going to be when when sort

Of teams are looking to be a little bit more expansive are as is a like sort of a slight lack of mobility and apologies to the two of them for for suggesting this but you know they are aging props really is is a slight with both of them

On the field are England a little bit sort of vulnerable defensively there perhaps so is it a case of if genj comes back in you have to start Cole and then you bring Marlo and Stewart on together perhaps I mean I think that in terms of the balance of the tight heads there’s

There’s an argument whereby Cole should start and play 50 minutes and Stewart should come off the bench anyway so potentially he might look at that um starting geneng in terms of other changes um did did ding wall do enough at 12 I mean there aren’t that many other options for

Next week we don’t think Martin’s going back in for Rehab so that suggests that he’s not going to be fit it wouldn’t surprise me if if he if he kept it unchanged maybe with genj genj and Cole maybe swapping the props and then keeping it basically as you were did

Underhill do enough at seven there’s a there’s a sort of there’s a there’s a conversation there I think there could be a rejig I mean benell could move move back to back to seven if Martin was fit they could use one of Chess or or a

Tojet six and have Roots at eight you know there’s there’s options there but I think I think the changes will be minimal yeah I wonder if they just stick with the same side for the first two games get to the fallow week then kind of reevaluate and and consider what they

Want to do for Scotland Charlie just on Marcus Smith’s injury is there any sort of update from from postmatch about when he might be back he won’t he’s been taken out of the squad um for this week so he won’t he won’t be around I don’t think he’s been definitively R ruled out

Of the tournament yet so they’ll be as sort of hinting it following on there sorry from what Charles is saying I think England can take it and now they’ve got that first win since 2019 in the Six Nations which is nuts they can you know go go all out for this week and

Then they’ll want to re reevaluate ahead of the Kolkata cup and that week extra week will help them potentially with if Martin’s not back for this week then certainly he’ll be in the mix for Scotland as will Ole Lawrence and then maybe Marcus Smith was still a little bit uncertain on that

One positive start then for England let’s have a little break and then look at the rest of the games from the opening weekend okay we kicked off on Friday night in marsill with um I would say a bit of a surprise but that’s not to to take anything away from Ireland they

Were just exceptional I just don’t think we expected the margin of Victory to be 21 points that was extraordinary Charles was it a case of Ireland being brilliant and France being bad or a bit of a combination how do you sort of feel about it a couple of days

Later I think it was a sort of a sort of catastrophic occurrence of lots of tiny little things um that sort of built up into that school line being completely Frank I I wasn’t I Island were good Islands were good but I wasn’t quite as bowled over

By them as other people were um which is scary in a way and and and I think this is not to take anything away from them it’s scary because I think they’ve got more gears to go through um I thought France in that second half admittedly

Down to 14 men but they were really poor and on the stroke of half time they were poor I do think the red card has maybe made more of a difference than people have maybe given sort of given credit for because they that isn’t that was in

A position where they were weak anyway they’re missing their two starting locks um Paul vmsa was only really sort of fourth choice they’ve drafted a 19yearold or be a behemoth 19yearold they’ve drafted a 19y old onto the bench um and when Paul Vala was was red carded

As as he was the second time because it was upgraded the line out went a bit to pot and but they were still in the hunt you know at 2417 I was chatting turning to colleagues in the Press Box and we were sort of saying there’s still a game

There’s still a game on here a real real game it didn’t feel like land were away until that um first driving Mor TR was she and who scored the first one wasn’t it it was um and that was when you sort of felt okay it’s done now but France

Had chances and just when Peter Mani had been yellow carded um and a France scored you thought hang on there could be there could be a real comeback on the cards here and then there was a fabulous defensive read by James low on on on R

Where he sort of let show almost showed Dy the inside and Dy should have took it but he passed behind to Ramos and low flew up held him up M turnover and that that at that point you sort of felt like Fran the momentum had shifted and that

Was France France’s goose cooked really such an interesting game for James low who were used to sort of dazzling us from an attacking standpoint but you mentioned that bit of defense and also just how important his left boot was in the kicking game Charlie especially it

Felt like in the in the early exchanges where France just couldn’t get any territory and Lowe’s Lowe’s kind of left Boot and and Gibson Park’s box kicks were absolutely vital to sort of pinning France back and frustrating them the kicking game was fascinating from the very start and I don’t know

Whether it was a combination of factors I.E France’s new halfbacks or being or them being seduced by the Home crowd or their them just wanting to shift how they were playing but I thought they went away from what has been a fundamental part of their success and

Dupont it’s not underrated cuz we talk about it loads but D pont’s kicking um luku absolutely smashed his first clearance up to halfway but thereafter Ireland really exerted a lot of pressure on the Rock and made it messy for him and France France just fell away in those kicking exchanges they tried to

Catch it was a really interesting passage where they Ireland got a little bit lucky France tried to catch low over chasing they went they had a line out and went wide and then Ramos I think it was kicked back over Lo’s head but Lo saw it coming readjusted caught it and

Then won the kicking exchanges with one that you remember it bubbled into the dead ball area and stayed still um and irland won that won that kicking exchange by by comfortably by sort of 40 odd meters and they Contin to do that throughout the game and and I think

France ended up kicking 20 times in in the game as a hole which is which would be a lot lower than what they what they would have averaged last year um that there’ll be a lot of reasons for that the fact that they went behind early and

And were down to 14 and they were chasing it anyway but still it’s really interesting and maybe they’re going through some growing PS of their own and Lowe’s booming left boot sort of um exacerbated them did we see Charles the the sort of effect of France Bing in a

New attack coach and kind of how that might actually mean that they they need a couple of games to actually get going I know we’ve spoken about that with England so it’s only fair to say that France as well might need just a little bit of time to bed in with that system

Yeah I think that’s fair enough I think their their shape their attacking shape struggled but also on on top of that they were just I mean I’m not really sure how much of a sort of a difference an attack coach is going to have on just fundamental basic errors that and you

Can obviously coach the the the the rudimentary skills of the game of course you can but these were sort of worldclass players who were you know last season you would never have imagined uh danty and Fu making sort of basic errors in both attack and defense and yet they had

Crept in and there is an element of chasing the game there is a um you know the the clearly the red card had an impact but it it did feel a bit more preal France it really did have that sort of air about it of just you know

That you don’t know which French team was going to is going to turn up that old cliche that we thought had been dead and buried well now it it it’s sort of back that way and and no matter what happens at murrayfield until the following week you’re still going to be

Able to say that because either they’re going to be a bit you know a bit mediocre again and Scotland are going to win or I think they’re probably going to go and absolutely blast Scotland off the park it’s one or the other but it’s that fickle that sort of volatility of of of

Historical France that galti had worked so hard to Vanquish and neutral neutralize that’s rearing its head again I love that you’re saying this a whole week after we got a question about that and you batted it away you were swatting it for six in Hydro bad over the fence

And now now it’s back it’s back it’s a real it’s a real question again um a rare one and a half cards for Paul Wills you touched it earlier and and the contrast between France’s depth at lock being tested and what happened with him getting those two kind of yellow cards

In the first half hour with with Joe McCarthy for Ireland who was the form selection at lock James Ryan was left on the bench and so you have McCarthy and Ty burn um Charlie just a word on on how well McCarthy played he was uh he was

Ripping up trees wasn’t he everything he seemed to carry was was with wonderful intent and he was he was superb yeah that looks like the just about the only one of my predictions that’s going to hold sway at the end of the tournament the fact that he he looks like the

Breakthrough player doesn’t he was breakthrough statement performance everything he was just he was just monstrous his not just his carrying what I was also I was watching this next to um in a restaurant actually with a big screen next to our colleague gav Mees and it was every time every time he just

Either either pop out of the defensive line and pick someone up quite literally there’s one on FR Fran cross where seemed to have won the original the coll Collision initially and McCarthy basically hauled him back two or three meters or he’d smash into counter rcks and and make you know make Paul Maxim

Luu’s life absolute absolute hell but he was that was a deserved man of the match even though he came he came off toward towards the end didn’t he and Ty burn his his lock partner was phenomenal too there loads of loads of excellent performances around that Island pack I

Thought McCarthy was the standout and he’s just a bit different like they those um those heavy tight head locks are no wonder they’re kind of owning the big bucks around the world they they are seriously valuable and we can’t finish talking about Ireland without a word on Jack

Crowley and just kind of how assured he he looked I wondered Charles just from watching it in the stands whether you felt that he looked as good as he did because of the quality system around him and it and it helps when you’ve got Bundy Yaki just exceptionally high

Quality Center cutting through over the game line and making ground and and a scrum half in Gibson Park who can box kick it very far and has that kind of control but but equally Crowley was impressive in his own right wasn’t he oh absolutely I mean that yeah you’re

You’re totally right I mean it’s certainly helped by the fact that Ireland are so fluid and and harmonious in in terms of their attack so we wondered how a new fly half would step up in that regard and actually of all the teams in the world Ireland’s

Probably the one where as a as a as a new fledgling fly half you’d probably quite like to come in because your Pack’s good you’re going to you know you’re going to be behind a solid pack you might not get an armchair ride because the you know there are other

Very very good packs in the world but you know you’re going to be behind a solid pack and you know that in terms of attacking everyone’s on the same wave length and you’ve just got a slot into that um first 15 minutes however you were sort of

Wondering if he was the man because there were a couple of Errors there was the charge down kick there was the missed shot goal uh I think there was another kick as well that went dead um and you were wondering he looks nervy he looks he looks anxious and I remember he

Was at 10 for monster in that match that we’ve mentioned Lots about fly halves when Northampton went over there and W and Finn Smith was outstanding and he was similar there he looked he was a bit panicky and then he just settled down and he just played beautifully and that

That pass for the Ty burn try I think that was the settler the proper proper settler for him where he he’ basically Bally M you know he’ made France look incredibly foolish um on their own patch this was pre the viler one and a half card um pre the viler dismissal if you

Like um and from there on he just accelerated and he grew into it beautifully matured into the game and by the end of it it was a case of Johnny who some brilliant goal kicking as well he he drained a couple of touchline conversions which weren’t weren’t easy

And and it’s funny wasn’t it he missed the easy one yeah he did yeah the straightforward one at the start where you were convinced he’d get it and then he he didn’t get that but he he got some very difficult kicks from out wide it

Was odd wasn’t it it almost felt like he was it was his debut even though obviously he’s got he had nine test caps before then it just felt because of the I guess Charlie just because of the focus on him and how much expectation there is for him to to fill seon’s boots

And there were some very very funny very dry tweets going around from arish fans on social media saying like oh maybe it was sexon who was holding us back all along which I thought was quite funny yeah I mean I I was so I was more impressed actually for him pushing

Through those tough those tough moments that that Charles mentioned his ball for burns try was really nice and we said last week didn’t we there’s a bit of swagger about him and he kind of had to call upon that because actually actually listened to the guys at the 42s um sort

Of on the whistle podcast and um they said that uh it’s almost a case for him of pulling that natural Swagger back and almost almost playing within himself rather than sort of um and going over the top of anything um yeah I was I was I was really impressed and more so for

Um the strength of mind he had and just to put the absolute curse on Arland now uh Grand Slam again someone’s going to have to play really well to stop them aren’t they it looks like it’s going to be over to England you know England are

Going to have to try and stop them because I mean okay Scotland might be unbeaten there’s a chance that Scotland will be unbeaten when they go to Dublin but we know Scotland do not enjoy playing Ireland and this could be Island going for a Grand Slam at home so

You it’d be a very very brave man to put any kind of money on on the Scots there but you know we see just imagine if we get Scotland going for a slam in Dublin on the Patty’s Day weekend that would be fantastic wouldn’t it I’d be for it i’

Be for it although I can see why you might not be trusting Scotland after what happened in Cardiff on Saturday where uh for 50 minutes they were absolutely brilliant again again one of those where you wonder were Scotland brilliant or were Wales utterly abysmal and and probably maybe actually in hindsight had

Leaned slightly towards Wales being completely abysmal given that Warren Gatlin came out afterwards and spoke to s4c and actually apologized for the first half performance and said it was one of the worst that he’s ever had in his coaching career I I think if that happens then then that kind of skews the

Balance a bit more to towards Scotland being terrible but having said that to to Wales being terrible but having said that Scotland their Precision of their kicking game with finim Russell the way they dominated all the breakdowns the way that Wales attack just had nothing because the Scottish kind of defense was

Forcing turnovers or slowing down Ruck ball Gatlin talked about Wales going into safety mode which by that he essentially mean they’d go through three phases get nowhere who a hopeless kick up field which Scotland would then Counterattack from I was really really impressed with Scotland and writing this

This very praise heavy pece about how they’d finally sort of shaken off this tag of being chokers and how impressive was this performance and then whales started coming back and it all went to all went to chaos and then William defo appeared on the big screen it was an

Extraordinary second half I don’t know I don’t know how much either of you managed to actually see of it Charles you you might have seen more it it’s funny momentum is a fascinating thing isn’t it and and when whales with sort of getting two tries and then three

Tries it did feel as though they they were going to win didn’t it just the way the second half was panning out yeah and I mean as I said it almost still feels like they did and yet they didn’t um but I mean what was the atmos I mean I’ve

Spoken to people who were there and they said that the atmosphere was absolutely Sensational in the principality Stadium um in during that second half the best that they’ve experienced for a number of years go with that I’d go with it I’d go with it having having covered quite a

Few games there absolutely defening got to the point where it was it was defening when the tri were scored but every kind of catch made by Aaron way when he then set off on a run and would beat Defenders you thought a try had

Been scored it was so loud it it yeah I mean I’m I have always thought that it is the best rugby venue particularly with the roof closed and and days days like that do reinforce it and and maybe it was because of that that noise and momentum that you felt well was were

Going to do it so I know Scotland nearly blew the biggest lead in Six Nations history I think it was going to be the biggest his comeback credit to them for kind of regathering themselves in the final 10 minutes the two yellow cards throughout the second half admittedly didn’t help

And they and they lost momentum massively in those stages but I I think psychologically to have not and it’s not just about winning in Cardiff for the first time in 22 years I think actually just to win that game given it was about to fall through their fingers that

Impressed me but and I know that sounds odd given they were in such a position of strength but if they can take the lessons from that eyeing out a few things Charlie I don’t know I I wonder if actually this might be a team that we can start taking a bit more seriously

And I think that would be great for the championship it was it was wild though wasn’t it it was absolutely wild I know we we sort of went we’re talking about how Scotland we know kind of want to do three things in this championships one is be more disruptive and aggressive

With their defense to be more adaptable with their attack and they also want to be able to seize control of moments to not let them slide um but that was a pretty poor start on that on that front wasn’t it um it reminded me it was the

Reverse of the Mad Kolkata Cup game in 2019 um when it was Scotland making that amazing comeback um then going ahead and then and then Beno going under the post and it being a draw but um yeah there’ll be frustration and there’ll be in a way they’re almost back to

Square one whereby they know that they’ve got the the talent to cut teams apart and almost toy with teams and that they can look like a really balanced side equally they can they can totally capitulate and um I don’t know how much history was wearing heavy on on them but

Um what’s interesting is that they have now ticked off another sort of um I guess burden for them and over the last couple of years they ticked off a few burdens against France you know beating them beating them twice and they have traditionally sort of matched up quite

Nicely against against France and it but last year in Paris it was a another patch orbe it at the beginning of the game when they went 19 N down I think that that kind of stopped them um stopped them in their tracks and gave them a mountains to climb so yeah

Fascinating I I wouldn’t I don’t know I I don’t I feel like I’m back to square one having looked as you say Ben really high on them and then just seeing that they’re still it’s quite jarring that they’re still capable of something like that and they and they we should me

Mention the penalty count they were Ben Keef just hated them for a bit the penalty counts absolutely hilarious so so it finished 164 I think and and Scotland at one point had conceded 14 penalties in a row that’s got to be close to a record Charles I’m guessing

Oh yeah absolutely I mean what what we at we’re you never know which Scotland are going to turn up is that’s almost what we’re at now um but I think yeah a crazy crazy game with a very underwhelming sort of finish and a very you know anticlimactic ending um and I

Think if we’re being killed Jo which you know we we we try not to be but I think if we’re being really sort of realistic Scotland really should have won that game by a little bit more and that try at the end I mean they were stopped by

Do had vanura put the ball on an ankle rather than the line and they did actually score at the end and that that would have been the the you know that would have been a bonus point for them that might might prove critical and um

So they did well to to get over the Finish Line in the end but I think that sort of try at the end the sort of almost clumsiness of it summed up their summed up their evening part of me wondered if they were just relieved to

Be in the area of the field where they were CU they got they got a penalty Advantage I think from the scrum or breakdown I can’t remember what it was and almost it was the fact that they were just short of whale’s line there was there was kind of widespread relief

That they knew they probably weren’t going to lose it from there um Finn Russell was really interesting afterwards he had some quotes uh to the BBC which I’m just going to read he was Scotland captain in that game and he sort of he said the frustrating thing is

The points that I was making to his teammates just weren’t being listened to I told them to leave the rck and they still kept going in at The Ruck and we get a yellow card for going in too many times and for offside so it was almost

Him kind of being like quite uniquely for a captain and essentially a new captain because it’s only his second game as Captain after one warm-up last summer and now he’s a he’s a co- Captain alongside Rory Doge found it quite interesting how he was saying you know

Like pay attention to me like I need to be listened to you I’m I’m trying to try to help you here we we also had a little clip of him afterwards cuz he had a very good goal kicking performance and that ended up being quite pivotal for the

Final score he spoke afterwards about how he found it quite easy uh playing inside under the roof yeah we’re indoors so it’s nice and easy and need to a trap with the guys at SIU and get get a roof over there um now my kicking was good

I’ve been feeling good the last week so and that was pleasing for me to to I think it was five from five or something like that which this would effectively Pro the point in the end but um yes I think personally for me that was nice

And but the boys scor two tries under the post which makes it a little bit easier as well somebody tells me the Scottish rby Union are not going to be investing in a roof anytime soon for murfield but it’s a nice it’s a nice idea isn’t it I just wondered whether

Just thinking ahead about Scotland France Charles you’ve talked about not knowing which France is going to turn up and not knowing which Scotland are going to turn up so if I forced you to give me an answer about who was going to win given that Scotland are going to be at

Home and and France a bit out of sorts in marsill which way would you lean oh um I think I’m going to lean with French backlash that might be heart overhead slightly but I’m going to go French backlash France to win at murrayfield and I’m I don’t I I can’t see it being

Perfect from them but I think they will have enough I think they will have enough and I I can’t you can’t see the sort of thing that were happening in the second half um last weekend happening on mass so sort of dramatically again I don’t think oh can

You can you you might be able to I don’t know I’m sort of talking I’m talking myself out of it even as I’m speaking h i mean my top tip for France would be to mle everything if they can because Scotland’s mole defense Gregor tanza noted afterwards has actually been a

Strength of theirs in um in recent years but completely went to part in Cardiff they just didn’t have an answer and to concede three three driving more tries will really frustrate them in the week and so Charlie is that an obvious area for France to kind of Target them I

Guess it is but they’ve got they’ll have type five injuries of injuries and unavailability of their own right France with with vza likely to miss vza the valza thing was so disappointing because he’s been so pivotal um to them so will will two laggy start Charles yeah I was wondering this is he

Fit enough I I don’t think he is I don’t think he’s fit enough to go beyond I think the plan all along would have been to unleash him off the bench for the last maybe 10 minutes five minutes in different circumstances obviously the way that the game panned out meant that

They felt that they needed a bit more dynamism and a bit more sort of of an impact earlier on I was wondering what they would do here because then you if you start woki and gabria together you’re quite lightweight there admittedly they’re both excellent players but the line out struggled so

There might be a temptation to bring woki in um but saying that you know their entire back row a line out forward so it it shouldn’t be struggling really um they might be tempted to bring Swang and I don’t think Mayu is fit um for this weekend I think he’s missing the first

Two games there might be a temptation but I’m I’m not sure he’s I’m not sure he’s there yet whereby he could be starting a test in the six s but he would cause some damage he would really cause some damage if he did start um

It’s just more and it was his jackling I was impressed by his jackling it was more that towards the end of the game the ball was going into touch and he was absolutely miles away from it and you could see being in the stadium him having to jog basically the entire width

Of the pitch to get to this line out um let’s just say he wasn’t necessarily hurrying and and against Scotland who are gonna you know spread you spread you from edge to edge that that’s potentially pretty pretty problematic um I couldn’t call it at all I think for

The uh it sounds really sanctimonious doesn’t it but for the good of the tournament at Scotland win and Scotland getting on a got getting on a roll so that they can both both them and irland can be unbeaten on that final weekend would be delicious wouldn’t it yeah I

Was just having a quick scan of T lagi minutes for perp on and they’re all over the shop actually this season he kind of he’s sort of has spurts of 50 or 40 or 30 he’s done 80 minutes twice all season so I think and Tess R’s obviously

Significantly a step up as well so that might be a bit of an ass for him like you say Charlie I’m I’m kind of siding with you I I love this idea of Scotland going to Dublin at the end and having all that momentum and if you beat France

Then what is it you’ve got to face England kind of uh you know a Wales who are oh no faced Wales already got to face England and then Italy and Rome yeah I you know it could happen I’m I’m not rolling it out at all just before we get to your questions

We wanted to comment on the death of Barry John on on Sunday which was announced and that Sunday afternoon very sad another great of Welsh rugby known as the king and when you when you get that nickname then that’s always pretty special um Charlie I know I know with a

Lot of sort of Welsh ancestry it’s part of your family he he was one of the greats wasn’t he and and he will be certainly missed yeah absolutely one of my one of my father’s uh favorite players slightly slight even for the amateur era but just a ghosting gliding

Playmaker who um seemed to bend games to to his will and it was really interesting sort of writing up the news story last night um just reading some of the tributes sort of at the time that his peers would get would give him so Gareth Edwards um he of the famous sort

Of exchange um you you pass it I’ll catch it which is what Barry John said to said to G Edwards when they first met but Gareth Ed was later wrote that he had a cool superiority which spread to others in the side remarkably remarkable marvelous easiness in the mind reducing problems to the

Simplest form backing his own Talent all the time I just thought that was that was really cool and actually watching you know it’s very limited footage and very grainy footage that we see of those games in the late 60s and 70s but that comes that comes across doesn’t it yeah

Those those sort of Legends that that Golden Era that Welsh Golden Era they sort of leaving us one by one aren’t they it’s um it’s all quite sad yeah Barry John red phantom Bill McLaren used to call him um Rugby’s first Superstar and then you know he was he he became

That sort of icon of of rugby and the you know transcended the sport and then obviously turned it back on its turned his back on it all um and yeah I mean just in terms of our coverage of it it’s difficult for us I suppose to add anything above and beyond what Serene

Mcin has has written obviously Serene mcin um played in in that era and his tribute just like his jpr Williams um tribute is is is very touching and um I sort of encourage all all listeners to to try and Scout it out and give it a

Read Charlie I think you you use the word gliding to sum him up and that’s perfect from watching the coverage he had fantastic kind of footwork and and running lines and and was you can see why he was so popular after that after that tour to New Zealand and also why I

Think the story around him retiring at 27 is fascinating about how he sort of turned his back on the on the Limelight and the metor of it all and his line about describing Wales as a bit of a golfish bow is one that has been used Often by players and coaches sort of

Moving forward but a fantastic Legacy a player who I know was revered by many and who will be deeply missed okay let’s have some of your questions thank you for sending in so many when we sent them out on Sunday plenty to get through and we we’ll try

And go over a few things we haven’t covered so far just starting with an a question from Andrew who says kind of apart from Ireland is there really a lot separating the rest of the teams and and could it could be very competitive from positions two to six Charles what do you

Make of that it does feel as though B on Friday night alone that they they are a little bit ahead of the rest iseland yeah and and and the competitiveness of positions 2 to six is certainly a narrative that has been built this weekend with how narrow the

Score lines were both in Rome and in Cardiff before quite going down that road I would like to see another round of fixtures just because there is the chance that England could beat Wales quite comfortably there’s also the chance that France could beat Scot Scotland quite comfortably and then you sort

Of you know and you know Ireland have probably got a loss in them at some point maybe if it’s not this tournament um at some point and then you might be looking at sort of a closing of the Gap to Ireland from what we from what we

Thought on the first first weekend and the opening weekend where yes they are they clearly look like the outstanding team in the championship and the outstanding candidates for a grand slam and and for a championship title but I think a few of the other teams are going

To have a little bit they’re going to have something to say about that let’s say and I mean is there a chance that that second half from Wales flatters has flattered them a little bit we we won’t know until this weekend I think they’re

A true test of what the true Wales is of those sort of two completely polar opposite halves will come to a clim this weekend it’s an interesting kind of subplot to that question isn’t it because we we’ve almost written England and whales off in advance because it

Just seems like there’s too many new new faces um too many new system or too many new systems being bedded in and therefore can you turn it all around in time to win but I I don’t know the more the more I wonder about them if they can get a

Couple of wins and be be in a position if one of them can be in a position but where they’ve got a couple of wins by round three or four maybe not for Wales certainly for England I’m I’m intrigued put it that way um a question we had

From Jared was is Wayne Wright potentially the best number eight in the Six Nations if not the best I think I mean immediately I don’t he was very good in the in the second half particularly like he he carried like a bolting horse I think I put in my match

P because he he just seemed to make so much ground but when you consider the the candidates for number eight with kayin Doris and Gregory aldr and what benell has done for England Charlie would he be would Wayne Wright be second best I’m I’m not so sure personally I

Say this as someone that really really really Ron way I remember there was a moment um he took the ball in the back field I think it was like a bobbling ball looked up getting a game against the all black saw Rico Yani and burned

Rico Yani and he he’s just a he’s just a phenomenal athlete great player um so I say that say this with that in mind I think kayin Doris and Gregory alre I think there’s daylight behind those two um then I think he’d be in in a mix of

Players I really rate M fuson as well and Lorenzo Canon’s good player who’s one of it best along with um menello at the weekend um and then we haven’t we sort of haven’t um mentioned Ben ear at all who was England’s best player at the World Cup so i’ say how about

Diplomatically we say that he’s he’s part of a chasing pack behind dorus and aldre who are the probably the class acts it’s a crowded field that’s very polite that’s my politician’s answer that’s veryl crowded field of bolting horses bolting horses the only thing I would say about way about Wayne Wright

Also it’s very hard say Aaron Wayne wri five times in a row I’ve just realized um is that kind of under Gatland he was a favorite and then under pivac he sort of went to the fringes of um selection because he wasn’t what he was looking

For and then as soon as cin returned last year he he was straight back in and he’s been kind of an Ever present ever since he’s clearly someone that Warren really rates highly for what he offers in terms of athleticism with improving physicality but yeah like Charles says

It’s a busy group um question from Paul Tate is do Italy f finally have the right coach now I mean it’s it’s one game in a cycle and I think we were huge fans of um Kieran Crowley during his time there and what he managed to achieve and also his subsequent um input

Input on the Netflix series Charles seems to have gone down quite well given his uh his honesty but what do you reckon is cassada potentially you know a good step forward uh yes but I don’t think Crowley had done much wrong in in all honesty I

Think he I I the World Cup was a bit of a disaster for them that’s it isn’t it I think it’s the way the defense just imploded at the World Cup and yeah shipping 96 points to the old blacks but I mean he was the the the announcement

Around him his departure um you know surprised him and he didn’t want to go and you don’t that happened pre-or cup and you don’t know what sort of an effect that had but I think he brought them on a lot and really it’s cada’s job to sort

Of build on that on Really Good Foundations they they have they have really sort of lethal set of of attacking rugby players in their starting 15 the depth is where they struggle um but then it’s just all about set piece and defense and the nuts and bolts of Italy’s game is where the

Improvements are needed is cada that man I mean he’s got great top 14 experience um in France with both R rassling and stad um it’s just difficult to judge after one game being honest um you hope that he’s the right man you hope that they’ve got the right coach the signs

Are you you’d be you’re optimistic that it’s the case but we’ll have to see how they go over the next four matches I I really like that question but and I think and I totally agree with everything Charles has said there um I think you’ve just got to think about the

Succession really and what Crowley has given them is something that’s can be their kind of USP as as side and now it’ll be up to cassada to sort of as as again as Charles said solidify the foundations that that um USP can can work with work from even yeah I think

That’s all very fair we had a question from William fiser asking was William defo at the principality part of a fever dream I mean it was certainly my favorite moment I just wondered if um if we’re thinking about England Wales and Scotland France who’s going to pop up on

The big screen that’s going to make you do a double take and think is that really who I think it is on the big screen I’m thinking like Tom Cruz at tuckland for example might be one where that might throw you off your game a little bit are there any that spring to

Mind that would would catch you by surprise um Margo Robbie yeah I mean she’s she used to be a Clapp and Resident so I don’t think that’s that’s certainly out the question she knows knows there’ll be a few CL residents at T you imagine that’s true that’s true Charles anybody

Anybody in murfield who you might think by me what are you doing there no no not after William defo is there anybody well just no no is that going to be beaten because he’s a he’s a Hollywood a-lister but also quite Rogue and Niche so is there anybody like yeah

No he’s in a very sort of niche of his own in that regard no I can’t I can’t think of anybody off the top of my head final question about from James chanler about what makes the perfect breakfast did you do a video of your breakfast at

Your hotel like you promised did yeah Twitter it it was it was it was for uh it was for my wife but it ended up being yeah for for for a lot more people I think yeah um the answer to that question is cake when you’re on the in

Continental Europe and when you’re home it’s Black Pudding oh can’t disagree with black pudding but I think eggs have always got to be somewhere in the in in in in Melting Pot you sent us a video of some gelato but I wasn’t sure about what time of day that

Was whether that was post game or pregame or is that just all times of day for your prep it’s it’s all times ago that that particular video was post post game yeah might walk back to the hotel to watch the game back like a true Pro

Okay that’s it for today uh guys where are you going to be this week Charlie where are you going to be going to be twick him the weekend and cutting back and forth from Penny Hill Park by the sounds of it over the week if you miss Penny Hill and it’s leafy surroundings

And it’s good spread of uh of Refreshments for journalists yeah absolutely Refreshments for journalists always Charles where are you going to be I am following Wales this week in in in toing and throwing to Cardiff and then I’m at England Wales at Twickenham also on Saturday lovely I will be at

Murrayfield for Scotland against France the uh the who will which version of which team will turn up game as Charles has build it very excited to see who does thank you to Charlie thank you to Charles thanks to you for downloading the podcast if you’re new welcome along

If you’re an existing person who’s passed it on to your friends and family thank you very much for doing that as well don’t miss out on all our coverage on the Six Nations there’s loads coming out over the next few days and plenty more as we build up to another exciting

Weekend but that is all for this week so enjoy the game we’ll catch you next week goodbye