Heroism and the Tyranny of ‘Just’ | J. Burden

Online commentator and interview show host J. Burden joins me to discuss his piece The Tyranny of ‘Just’. His piece deals with the removal of heroic ideals from our art, film and literature, the fact that Liberals cannot write heroic characters in their stories and how modern man is uncomfortable with the heroic.

~ [Stream of Consciousness Episode 169]

Read The Tyranny of ‘Just’: https://jburden.substack.com/p/the-tyranny-of-just

J. Burden on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/_jburden
J. Burden YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgjEkWsC0DFva2Q94TXgwCQ
J. Burden’s Substack: https://jburden.substack.com/

LINKS

Telegram: https://t.me/ConsciousCaracal

Afrikaanse kanaal: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAxEfPfXamLnyiGAGMC1Jug

All right greetings from the Dark Continent conscious Caro here erens fale here to shine a light on the goings on down south but also again as as with last week some ideas that I think that are not only uh applicable or relevant to the South African context but also to

The Wider Western context specifically in America as you will uh hear from my guest uh later in the show and tonight’s topic for discussion that particular topic is the tyranny of just now I understand that title alone doesn’t give you too much to deduce on what we’re

Going to be talking about here tonight but I can guarantee you it’s going to be worth your while and here to join me tonight for that topic is Jay burden he’s been kind enough to have me on his show in the past on his YouTube channel

And I thought it was only right to have him on my show to talk about one of his recent pieces that you wrote of the same title as the show here tonight so welcome on the show Jay burden and I’m looking forward to it yeah thank you so

Much for having me on Ern I’ve said this before in our interview but you know in the kind of time before I decided to kind of put my hat in the ring and uh you know produce my own content uh you’ve been a favorite of mine for a

While and I mentioned it before but you know you did a a discussion with a with a friend of yours you know talking about the necessity of kind of digging a trench and you know that essay and that podcast in particular was incredibly impactful on me it’s one that I think

Back to of and and so uh I’m I’m honored to be here well thank you very much uh you wrote a piece that was impactful on my thoughts as well so and that’s why I invited you on to elaborate a bit more on it but uh maybe just for some context

For my audience um stop me if you’ve uh if any of this sounds familiar so if you’ve watched a show like Rick and Morty or peruse the the pages of Reddit specifically the front page you’ll have heard one of these lines uh your just a meat Machine piloted by a bio computer

You’re just a microorganism at the bottom of a cosmic gravity well you’re just a spec on a rock hurting through space at the bottom at the bottom of it and the thousands of thousand miles per hour love is just a chemical reaction you’re just a brain riding a meat

Bicycle with just Apes uh with nuclear weapons and uh so on and so on I think you can tell that I that I grew up in the 2000s but I think many of those would have would have crossed your path even on your side Jay buron maybe even

More in the American context well well certainly and that was kind of the Genesis behind this this piece like I say I really hate talking about these kind of like mass casualty events mass shootings they’re just kind of distasteful and and there’s always this rush to you know use the biographical

Details to kind of like fill out a political punch card and I I don’t like it but in the wake of one of the recent ones there was this kind of arch female Progressive I cannot remember who they’re effectively interchangeable uh who said oh this is the one that proves

The idea of you know the good guy with the gun wrong you know you’re you’re not a hero you’re just a normal guy you know if you were there when it happened even if you had you know if you were armed you just sit there and and you know soil

Yourself and that sort of got me thinking because that that term just right is sort of this mimetic tool where you can make a technically true statement right like you are a man I am a man but in making an equivocation like a is B you’re sort of bringing it to the

Lowest common denominator like oh you’re just a man you know there there’s nothing more to you than kind of like your your literal characteristics and I think that kind of that tool that mimetic virus is really rampant and it’s used to attack kind of broader civilizational narratives so in

This piece I talk about how you know this is used to kind of attack civilizational figures and heroes and kind of recontextualize quote unquote you know those figures those men those narratives and make them seem to be kind of like venial or you know kind of low

And you know that isn’t just that isn’t a neutral thing you know that isn’t just true history right it’s ideological and you know buried in that it creates this KnockOn effect where you know when we don’t have these higher ideals these civilizational myths well we can’t produce Heroes we can’t produce quality

Men anymore and so to me I think that that that line of attack is one that we really have to understand and resist because I mean we’re living in the consequences of it you know I mean when we have Lewis would call these men you know men without chests you know men who

Have been raised to only believe in that kind of you know frame of just well you can’t get them to do you know dangerous things you know again I hate to use the example from a shooting but in and what happened at Uvaldi you know where there dozens of armed men standing essentially

Outside a building where children are being murdered and what do they do you know they sit on their phones they check they wait for reinforcements to arise and I’m not saying that’s directly because you they grew up in a world you know where they watched one too many

Episodes of Rick and Morty but that idea is is pernicious and it produces the kind of results we see now absolutely and I think I mean this this goes back to the much older idea of just the role of the the story or the role of the Epic or the role of the

Legend or the myth is that the the very specific practical role of producing or not producing rather providing people with these types of figures to Aspire to it doesn’t the same applies to An Origin myth or the the origin myth that any people uh starts with or the the myth

That kind of creates their Genesis what you’re sitting with there it doesn’t even have to be true or false it provides an ideal to strive towards and in our time it feels almost as if even that even looking at some of these stories the the Reddit response or the

The almost knee-jerk response is it’s not true it’s just a myth or it’s just a just a story that people made up to manipulate other people of course there aren’t heroic figures like this have you ever seen a hero like that of course not that it’s just a it’s just a fantasy it

Was used by Elites in the past thought up to manipulate people and so they can do uh uh act in in a in a certain way that they wanted and everything is just deconstructed to this very cynical level but that that’s absolutely not the case what we see throughout history and

Through the entire spectrum of cultures is that at the Bedrock is always a story or a collection of stories or myth true or false or exaggerated that provide that culture or that people or individuals with in that Community ideals to strive towards and even just even if when you realize that some of

These story or it’s revealed to you that some of these stories are not true that doesn’t change the fact that it’s still an ideal that you strive towards a lot of people do it unconsciously even um I think in our time a lot of people the films that they watch now it doesn’t

Even matter how deep or even uh virtuous the or the film’s script is or some of the ideals within it but people watch a film like Star Wars and you see how they get completely sucked into that story and they start emulating these characters and they start using when

When they don’t have religion to guide them they let these stories guide them and say well uh Lord Voldemort is evil and Harry Potter and he would have been he would have supported this ideology that’s why I oppose this ideology today people do it unconsciously but the same

People even those people that scoff at these ideas and say it’s just myth it’s just thing it it doesn’t really matter it’s just things that people made up are doing it unconsciously in the background as well or at least that’s that’s how it appears to me well certainly and I think

Some of the confusion from this results from an incorrect assumption we can kind of Trace back to the Enlightenment and that is that man is first and foremost rational now obviously we have the capacity to reason that’s a very essential skill I’m not denying that but

My contention is that man is first and foremost a narrative creature you view yourself mimetically in relation to other things now again like I said the capacity to reason is important I’m not denying that but you know when we look at something like you know charging a Machine Gun Nest you know doing

Something dangerous is that a rational decision for you as a singular individual I hate to say it not really right but you need to have this kind of heroic standard to live up to and this is something that CS Lewis talks about often I’ve mentioned before at the the

Opening chapter to his book abolition of man which is often referred to as a separate essay by the name of uh men without chests you can find it very easily online he describes that process and he describes it in in children’s education you know through the device of

A of a literature book written for students where they’re supposed to pull apart a piece of poetry but the whole framing is that these kind of higher ideals of Truth and nobility that’s just language like we’re adults we can skip through that and what that communicates

Is that you know all there is is the kind of like coldly rational the kind of like mathematical and once you have that you create like what he said men without chests men with no capacity to feel true and Noble things you know past the kind of like sheerly biological and one of

The again from Lewis and this is a different book one of his first uh it’s called Uh Pilgrim’s regress he describes a similar a similar instance so for those who aren’t familiar this was his first major work after he reconverted to Christianity it sort of takes the form of uh you know

Bunions Pilgrims Progress it’s sort of a a retelling of that story but it’s it’s Lewis’s own life and so much like in the original Pilgrim’s Progress there’s a scene where our main character is kind of we laid by a giant and imprisoned but in this one you know the modern retelling by L

The giant has this kind of horrifying power and this power is to make your skin translucent whenever he looks at you you can see your bones your muscles your blood pumping and apparently in the story this is so horrific that it freezes you in place the giant can can

Captured and the giant is called the spirit of the age and this is sort of a an analogy for Freud right and what Freud did is show you something technically true about yourself right man is a is a sexual being that’s inherent true but from then that that

Kind of Truth was a critique that contained a value judgment you know and that critique was that’s all that you are that’s just what you are and just like in the story that paralyzes you that makes you unable to see yourself as anything other than this kind of disgusting you know

Amalgamation of of organs and obviously in the story you know Lewis’s analog John is is rescued by by reason you know and the story continues on from there but I thought that was a very powerful image of the way in which that kind of equivocation and defacing is is completely completely

Paralyzing and one of the things I actually wrote there’s a pair of essays on this because in the first one I lay out the problem and then the second one I go into like well why is this used you know why do people lean into that but I

I think that that one of them right is just that there’s essentially a little bit of you know a little bit of sour grapes you know some someone feels like well I’m not living up to a standard so I can’t allow there to be a standard you

Know and I think that that’s that’s fundamentally the the wrong way to look at things because if we look at The Men Who Built our countries and if we look at The Men Who accomplished great things they viewed themselves in relation to a tradition greater than themselves so I’m

I’m I’m a man of the South I you know a big fan of of Robert E and one of the interesting things about him is he was absolutely obsessed with George Washington he viewed himself in relation to that he was always feeling like I’m

Not living up to him I need to be more like him I need to work harder I need to try and kind of emulate my hero and because of that he’s able to accomplish amazing things because he had this kind of idealized version of someone who came before him similarly he

Had Napoleon infamously was obsessed with Alexander right he was Never As Good As Alexander now despite the fact that he was a world-conquering general you know almost without peer he still viewed himself as a failure in in relation to that and obviously this was written kind of shortly after the the

Ridley Scott Napoleon Movie which is sort of a classic example of that tyranny of just right why why are we focusing on Napoleon well it’s not because he conquered the world you know he’s this great military leader well it’s because he had kind of a weird relationship and that’s the thing that’s

Really important you know focus on this kind of venial but technically true although you could say in that case it’s exaggerated my point stands instead of the broader narrative and even though it’s never directly attacked that undermines it and you lose that you create that situation for for men

Without chests so sorry Ernst I’ve been I’ve been going on for about 10 minutes but that’s sort of no that’s it’s no it’s it’s good stuff that’s that’s the content that’s elaboration on the content of your piece so I think that that’s why I wanted to have you on as

Well so you’re you’re you’re doing great so I just wanted to highlight one comment that I found quite amusing it’s Mano and who said I find arin’s accent pleasing yet funny it’s a winwin oh um I’m I’m very glad that well I’m glad Manan can get uh can get internet in his

Retirement community I’m glad he could tune in excellent I’m glad that I can uh get stable internet here in at the southern tip of Africa um but yeah so when it comes to to get back to what you was describing there you were talking about for example an idealized version

Of of George Washington that get again comes back to that point that I made earlier about it it really the the the asset that that a lot of people in the commentariat used to to break that those images or those ideals down is to say well what you have here is just an

Idealized version of a flawed man look at all these terrible things that he did look at all these terrible things that he said look at all these sinful things that he did in his life and what you how you should actually be looking at that type of rebuttal is just the the Yes

Meme of like yes he was a human he was sinful that’s that’s the Human Condition you’re not going to be able to find a perfect hero out there but not a lot of people have that that Outlook a lot of people get confronted by this type

Of I I see it as a weak rebuttal but a lot of people get confronted by these types of uh this type of rhetoric of well look at how terrible all these people that you idolize were in the past people just really exposing that they were human but at the same time

That works on a lot of people it disenchants a lot of these figures immediately start feeling guilty a lot of people and start thinking well maybe I shouldn’t be striving towards being this person trying to be like this person but in the end the bottom line is

It doesn’t really matter whether that is a true like photographic image of the the man that was or whether uh that is an idealized version It’s the ideal that you’re striving towards that is enabling you to be a better person that is enabling you to be better that is that’s

Challenging you to be a better person or to be a greater man or to achieve more than you have at this point it’s the it’s but that’s a whole I’m not going to get into this but it it is the debate over the noble lie as well it’s a theme

That’s throughout history a debate among the thinkers thousands of years ago already is does there exist something as a noble lie and I think in many cases maybe unwittingly we spread a lot of noble lies about people in the past but as you said idealized versions

Uh but it’s it achieves a noble goal it achieves that striving from people that would otherwise not have been there and we see what the absence of that c what the absence of that would be like because we live in an age full of acid that is just dissolving all of these

Great figures from the past trying to uh reduce them to just their most Bas characteristics their most like most human moments but in where they’ve Fallen where they’ve stumbled where they’ve where theyve failed and a lot of people fall for it unfortunately well certainly and I think that there there’s sort of

This category for things that are either technically false or impossible to prove but tell us kind of broader narrative truth so the example is you the classic American story of you know George Washington cutting down the cherry tree admitting the fact that he’ done it as a young boy despite the fact

He couldn’t couldn’t be proven and he was punished for it the obviously the the the moral of the story is you know he was a good and honest man who is willing you know even as a child to admit that he had done something wrong

And be punished for it now is that true no idea no one can verify it either way but what it does do is impart a sort of civilizational lesson you know be like this man and so again kind of merely debating things on the kind of like

Simply factual level like don’t get me wrong that that’s important you you need to be correct you shouldn’t be you kind of like willfully spreading mistruths but it’s it’s sort of a impoverished way of looking at that story you know did did Arthur really pull a sword out of a

Stone probably not who knows you know but merely getting so focused on these kind of like granular factual issues in comparison to this this wider thing it’s it’s incredibly myopic and again like the you see this in these kind of deconstructions it’s the it reframes the whole discussion of a man the whole

Discussion of an era on something that while certainly a picture a part of it is is a relatively inconsequential one like the the example I always think of is like was gask Khan nice to his mother you know and it’s like well I mean he

May or may not have been but that’s not why we’re talking about gangas Khan you don’t we don’t say like oh well you know he he conquered most of the known world but really the reason that he matters is that you know he was a he was a a pleasant and jovial fellow

And this this really is deeply an important thing to to capture because one of my my all-time kind of literary Idols you know the man that I look up to greatly is is Thomas Carlile and Thomas Carlile has kind of fallen out of fashion he was once considered you know

Kind of an indispensible part of you know the Western Cannon the victorians he was friends with with Dickens but he he’s sort of been kind of ushered out in favor of more modern more modern authors but he has this this book it’s it’s Heroes heroism and hero

Worship or it’s something like that it’s easy to find where he talks about this exact thing and he has this line that’s amazing it says like hero worship is the basis of civilization which basically means you know that if you have that mechanism to kind of inspire people to

Live a certain way you know to to emulate Great Men that’s a civilization and once that goes away the civilization sort of loses it its Spirit loses its Vitality it’s it’s Vigor and I think that that’s something I I sincerely want to avoid because I love my tradition I love my people and

To see them kind of so thoroughly demotivated or demoralized is is genuinely tragic absolutely and the I also uh I’m also reminded of um one of my favorite uh plays written by afri called n it’s here behind me um I’m not going to go looking for it now but it’s called theal

Uh the hero and the without spoiling too much of it but I mean I don’t think it’s it’s a difficult book to find so I don’t think I’m going to be spoiling it for anyone but it deals with this idea it goes a bit more to the the the side of

Some some things some ideal idealized images are better than the real the real gritty reality and it to put it very simply if I remember it correctly I haven’t read it in a while but it the the the story ends on an opportunity for one of the Char so a character dies and

Another character has the opportunity to tell uh the the the deceased character son about his father but his son has a incredibly idealized heroic image of his father and this character has the opportunity to shatter that image but with that he will also be shattering what this child will be aspiring to be

In his life and he he doesn’t do it and it it comes back to that there’s a whole debate around whether should tell that in that scenario well it’s a fictional scenario in this case but whether you should tell the brutal truth or let that child Chase and strive towards that that

Noble ideal that he has in his mind um but it comes down to to exactly what you’re you’re describing there as well well I think that there’s also there’s something to be said that I think there’s a difference between kind of you know true and honest scholarship you know someone who is actually

Interested in you know the kind of background details of historical figure I’m not denying that but I think that what what we see in a broader cultural sense is is not that it’s motivated reasoning it’s I want to go after this figure you know what’s the closest thing

To hand you know what’s a way I can attack this narrative and so you know you see this in and this is one of the reasons that I consistently you know kind of refer to figures from the you know the americ Civil War because this is only relatively recently controversial and so

It’s sort of helpful to look back to even uh you know just a few decades to when this was kind of part of the the Corpus of American Myth and and what you see is right that the these kind of facts about these men’s life you know

Like oh Robert E le own slaves was not particularly well hidden it was not hard to find you know nor was the idea that he waged a war against the American federal government government that was quite welln but when it becomes sort of a necessary thing you know this is a

Part of a narrative we need to destroy and corrupt those things become highlighted you know and again I think that it’s it’s sort of a it sort of must be viewed as that as kind of an explicit attack and you know when we look at why I think this is used

So often I I think some of it is just a simple animat you know I think that a lot of a lot of cultural figures are just kind of low-minded and enjoy you know an opportunity to kind of punish the people they don’t like like this is

Very easy to see in American politics right that you know for instance when they took down Lee’s statue in in Richmond I actually this is a funny connection I was living you know a hundred yards away from that statue when I first heard uh your podcast it’s just

A weird connection I think about it that’s a that’s a strange connection but ni bit of synchronicity there yeah I know really right and when it was taken down well it wasn’t just taken down it was taken down and sort of ritually humiliated you know that that face

You’ve seen a half dozen times where it was you know struck through its face cut off you know and then a full film crew showed up to watch it kind of melt Into the Fire and then it was publicized Nationwide exactly you don’t do that for

For the reasons of you know new new new historical scholarship coming to life right that’s very clearly animous it’s hatred and I think that it’s important to to recognize that as as such but one of the other things is that we talk about and we’ve talked about for the

Last 25 minutes the the importance of having a a positive standard to measure measure measure yourself against right you know that you say like oh like this is a a great figure for my people’s history I want to be like him but conversely if you’re at the top of this

Heap you know you know you’re a a strong and powerful man and you’re thinking well I don’t I don’t look very good compared to that at all like I look like what I am I look like a crook but if you can either say well I am better because

I’m not racist or I’m not this I’m not that you can kind of recontextualize that history in a way to make yourself look as a more virtuous man than you are or consequently not to be compared against a standard you can’t measure up to and look Yuki mashima is kind of an

Odd guy to put it mildly I really like his literature uh the Sailor Who Fell From Grace is is a very odd book I’d recommend it but nonetheless he has a a very insightful view on this from Sun and steel which is sort of his like Samurai bodybuilding Manifesto and he

Talks about you know why people hate Heroes and let me pull it up because I think it’s a uh I think it’s a helpful quote Oh yes here it is the cynicism that regards all Hero worship is comical is always overshadowed by a sense of physical inferiority invariably is it a

Man who believes himself physically lacking and heroic attributes who speaks mockingly of a hero I have yet to hear hero worship mocked by a man endowed with what might be justly cause called heroic physical attributes and obviously he’s talking in a in a physical sense it it applies to a you know philosophical

Or theological one as well which is I think that you know these men without chest that we have created it’s sort of this self-reinforcing cycle where you know when we have robbed people of you know this this kind of tradition to bind themselves to they will naturally not

You know embody those virtues anymore it’s been taken out of them and then you know looking at yourself and realizing well I don’t measure up that’s never a comfortable thing you know and so it’s easier in some ways to to recast that heroism as naive or is stupid or

Something to be embarrassed of and that’s something we also see like you know you you mentioned this this kind of like popcorn flicks and one of the things that I really hate it’s been kind of termed Millennial writing you know is this sort of this recurring punchline

You know where we sort of get 80% of a traditionally heroic or dramatic scene you know the hero you know walks in Puffs out his chest and then slips on a banana peel you know something undercuts that moment like oh that was awkward kind of wink it the camera and once or

Twice you know it’s a funny joke or you you know you you played a prank on me but it’s recurring enough that I think it shows that you know the the the chattering class is deeply uncomfortable with the idea we got to cut this guy

Down to size exactly right no one can be truly that it’s always got to be a joke or it’s got to be a cover for something sinister and so I think that that’s something excuse me to be aware of as well is is the kind of changing way in

Which we refer to heroes in media because like I said earlier humans are mimetic they view themsel in relation to story and and you know just like in the sense of you know a physical sense you sort of are what you ingest now when you describe that uh

That type of scene I think we’ve most of us have seen it but and you discussed this with Orin McIntyre as well when you were on his Channel about the same topic you were talking about specifically the the inability of Hollywood writers today to write genuine heroic or virtuous

Characters but virtuous in the courageous sense but do you think that as you described there they are unable just because they are themselves uncomfortable with that type writing that type of character or unfamiliar they don’t even know how to write that character or do you think there’s also

An element maybe it’s in maybe it’s in the background maybe they don’t act it’s not in their conscious mind maybe unconsciously realize that that type of character might alienate uh a quite a lot of audience at this point where they’d rather keep the the audience lowest common Den n when it comes to

Heroism let’s not make them too uncomfortable with a too heroic type of character or something that puts makes them feel too bad about themselves do you think there’s an element of that as well no certainly and I think one of the other things in that is that media has

Become truly Global you know that every narrative must be for for every place and you know with the B big Disney properties this is easy to see you know because they they sell just as many if not more tickets in in China and India than do in in the west and so that

Naturally will create kind of a rounding off of of the edges because there is something to a sense in which you know there are broadly heroic characteristics you know if if you look at a Norse hero an English one an Italian one they’ll have certain crossovers but I do think

That there is there is something of this that is specific to a culture to a folk you know and without those kind of like identifying characteristics it sort of you sort of lose lose the definition so I think that if we’re talking about you know archetypes like what is the

Archetypal hero you know in America the archetypal hero is something like the cowboy or the mountain man you know and we’ve had multiple versions of this you know Nathaniel Hawthorne it’s uh I can’t remember what they call them there’s any number of names for him even that early

But you know even John Wayne is kind of a a reimagined version of that this kind of rugged individualist him against you know the world and other cultures have those as well you know like the the Japan and I’ve mentioned Mima but the concept of the Samurai has certain

There’s certain crossover there but it’s also very different and specifically Japanese and you can look into that and say oh I admire that but you sort of can’t understand it in the same way it’s not you it’s not part of your kind of cultural like strategy you need FK

Heroes exactly and I think that as you know media becomes globalized you lose that you know you don’t get an American hero you don’t get you know a boore hero you get you know generic hero as written by kind of miss the Justice yeah written by you know kind of like vaguely

Uncomfortable pencil necked Hollywood writers and so I think you’re 100% right on both both counts you know that people are deeply uncomfortable writing it and I think that you know as we’ve seen this kind of like degradation you know and I believe the degradation is has hit all

Segments of society you know that we we are a nation of men without chests and I think that you there’s a reason when you look at you know kind of media from an earlier era you know when you look at kind of mass consumption like the the classic you know black and white

Westerns it seems kind of unsophisticated to us and I think that’s because we’ve been sort of like poisoned by that that kind of quote unquote recontextualization that you and I have been speaking about you know you kind of can’t get that out of you you know you

Can try and I certainly have attempted to in my own life I did but it is sort of one of those things that once that gets into you it never really gets out of you y the when you were talking about folk Heroes I mean it’s I think there’s

A silver lining there’s a white pull here and that it those Heroes didn’t go away those stories weren’t incinerated they weren’t wiped from the history they weren’t wiped from people’s memories they’re just not at the Forefront they’re not being told they’re not being shared so that that’s where the Silver

Lining comes in is that we just need to start telling those stories again we need to start venerating a lot of these heroes from the past again and as you correctly identified you need to identify people that are heroes specifically to your people as well it

Makes them so much more relatable to the people that you’re going to be telling these stories to and they’re going to have built in the culture of the people that you want to inspire so you can venerate or you can celebrate heroes from from other cultures or other countries I don’t think that’s

Impossible but nothing will ever match a folk hero someone the more local the better even on a national level I think in the American sense it al already becomes a bit abstract I think the more local you can get uh state level and then even you I don’t know exactly how

The the states get broken up I think in counties if I remember correctly but the more local the better even a hero in your own little towns context and there someone here in the chat seliner opinions actually gave three great examples of Africana Heroes so V voltima

Um a man who gave his own life to sa him and his horse to save people on a sinking ship off the coast of the cape Dury Ace Amazing Story um 15-year-old during the Great Tri um surrounded by Zulu impes and uh him and his father and

They they’re going to die and his father says get on the horse run save yourself and he refuses to leave his father’s side and he dies by his father’s side before but not before putting up a hell of a fight and then of course yai King

And I’m going to indulge a little bit quickly telling the short version of yai King’s Story it’s such an amazing story and if we’re talking about if we if you and me are going to be talking about we need to start talking about real heroes again need to start telling these

Stories again I would be remiss if if I didn’t indulge a little bit in just quickly telling this man’s story so y during the second Anglo War I can’t remember how old he was I think he was eight years old he was definitely in Primary School

Between I think around the age of eight so his father is a bu commu a Commando that’s hiding somewhere in the in the in the mountains and the British Rock up on his farm him and his mother are there and the British officer or the Brit I

Don’t know what his rank was probably a bit higher than officer but anyway comes over to yai little Ying takes him aside and says where’s your father he says I’m not going to tell you he says well I don’t think you have a choice and he

Puts him up against the a wall and he says again where’s your father and little Ying the little 8-year-old boy says I’m not going to tell you and he says all right he orders his men to uh take aim at the little boy they’re going to kill him by firing squad if he

Doesn’t answer and he says this is your last chance where’s your father and the little boy looks him straight in the eye doesn’t even have a inkling of emotion on his face and says I will not tell you and then this um this English Soldier or or Colonel or whatever his rank was

Pretty much tells his men to put their their arms down and says I cannot I cannot kill a man that I have so much respect for and then uh the story has a little bit of a Twist in the end so after the war um I don’t know how this

Happened but after the war this uh this English soldier that pretty much put this little boy up against the wall in front of the firing squad writes a book about his experience during the war and one of his chapters is on this experience on little Ying the impact or

The the influence and the impression that this little bu Boy made on him and he meets yiing somewhere I think in in the city of Petoria he uh he comes across him and he says Mr King I I wrote a book and and you are featured in it you made such an

Impact on me that I had to include you in my book here is a is a copy for you and a grown man at the time takes the book looks at it hands it back to him and says I don’t want your damn book turns around walks away and that’s the that’s

The very short version of of Yi King a a child hero in the in the a folk hero in the in the bu sense but these These are the types of stories that you that you need to tell and you need to share well and I think that it’s it’s something that’s

Especially kind of vital in in dark times right in times in which things seem seem Grim because one of the the kind of classic you know American stories is the Alamo right which is again something like thermopolymerization kind of personally beneficial which is to give up you know you might survive

But it’s not honorable and the way that you you motivate men is by giving them you know Honor by giving them something to to strive for and these stories these kind of the these Tales of you the action in extremists you know when when you had to do something that was

Difficult they provide you they provide you what you need to kind of act in those in those circumstances and and the kind of like the the truly like diabolical thing about how things are currently set up is that you know far from being recognized at least in our

Current moment there’s a very real likelihood you will be punished for doing the right thing but nonetheless it is the right The Honorable thing to do and so I think that you know and I I’m glad you told me those stories I didn’t know them I didn’t obviously I’m not a

Boore I didn’t grow up with them but it kind of shows you you know the kind of things that you you can’t expect of people given a kind of a healthy understanding of you know honor and Duty and you those ideas aren’t this kind of like cheap trash they’re presented as

You know they’re not just a way to manipulate people they’re a way to have you know a functional like real good civilization again and you know my friend my friend Thomas who comes on my show often he says this thing where he said basically that you know like

America is a pointless civilization it can’t answer why it exists and you know whether you want to say that or talk about this crisis of meaning you know where people have no way to justify you know who they are and what they do I think that that that sickness is

Born of having no heroic vision of the world and and one of the things that I think that you do a good job Ern of talking about is that you know we are in an era of decline you know things are throughout our lives getting worse

They’re fraying but there is a there’s a call in that there’s an adventure in that and when you view yourself in kind of this chain of men who came before you who who dealt with entropy who dealt with rough situations right who dealt with you know an uncivilized continent

And yet we able to build something to create something and to you know undergo immense personal uh personal privation well that’s that’s exactly what we need now you know we are not at this kind of Eternal end of History where it’s just a a slow retirement cruise for

Civilization that that is that’s not an option extended to us and so that’s why I think we need to be looking back into the past to see men well okay like what did what did our forefathers who were put in similar circumstances do and well

Am I living up to that to that example I guess no absolutely and there was a comment here that I think perfectly encapsulates this this part of the discussion and uh it’s from Stefan yobs who says heroes are born when Duty beckons and this is as you correctly

Pointed out something that I I repeat over and over again because people need to understand this people often despair when they hear that um that old saying about uh good time Hard Men create create good times good times create soft men soft men create bad times it goes on

And on and on that cycle but the or uh strong men and weak men with different variants on it when it comes to living in hard times now I firstly just want to underscore again as I always have to we’re not in hard times yet don’t don’t

Believe that for a second and as you correctly stated Mr buron if you have any knowledge about history you don’t even have to be a history buff you’ll know you can measure the times that we are currently living in against the times in the past and you’ll know that

Uh something that Orin also um often reminds his audience of that things can get a lot worse believe me um so don’t also take that uh that saying too far and say well yeah we’re living in the hard times now but when it comes to that cycle of hard times and

Good times you have the opportunity during in the good times you have the opportunity to live a comfortable life but during the bad times or the hard times you not only have the opportunity to see great men and strong men come to the fall some of historic figures that

You only read about in history and some that you haven’t seen around you in your time uh you get the opportunity to actually see or the potential to see some of those great men of history come to the fall there’s some a greater privilege and a greater potential in in

Hard times or difficult times and that is you can be a great man yourself you can be a heroic person yourself that doesn’t mean you have to lead a nation that doesn’t mean you have to be you have to create an institution that stands for thousands of years or

Hundreds of years is it just means you get a ample opportunity to be heroic to say I’m going to go against the grain of the times I’m going to go against the spirits of the time or in Africans you’d say the ti the spirit of the time you

Have a ample opportunity for that you actually have a duty for that as one of the comments pointed out so we should do away with this conception of Heroes being born of like you’re born heroic you’re F to be heroic now there is there is a conversation to be had about that

That theme within ancient mythology but at the same time I think it’s more important to underscore that heroes are created heroes are created by the times that they’re born into they are called to be heroes during uh the time if they were born in another time they might

Have been just a boring accountant if they were born during another time they might have just been a street sweeper or a any type of boring uh I’m I’m insulting some of my audience maybe uh just some boring office jobs but uh at the same time that’s not the time that

Uh times that we are living in currently and not the times that that are heading our way the times that are heading our way is going to be times where I think we’re going to see some of a lot more opportunity and duty to be more than uh

You than more than just a man or just a normal person that’s you’re going to be called to be more and you’re going to need heroic figures to strive towards because you’re not going to be able to find that heroic inspiration just in yourself you’re going to have to find it

In ideals that you strive towards I think that’s the that’s the core core at the core of the of your peace as well is that we have to again reestablish those ideals and we ourselves also have to be striving towards them even if we don’t reach them well and that’s one of the

The reasons that I like Thomas Carlile so much is in that book he goes through different men and these are these are great men you know that theory of the Great Men theory of history is is sort of you know lifted from from Carlile is that he describes the the different ways

The different kind of archetypes of a hero because there are more than one you know like not every man is Napoleon you know but you can look at someone like Martin Luther you know and even if you’re Catholic you’ve got to admit that that was a brave man you know that was a

Man who who truly you know had kind of strong beliefs and was willing to kind of risk it all on that and I think think that that’s that’s one of the other reasons that it is so important to to go back into this tradition because when you have a rich civilizational tradition

You don’t have just one type of of hero you know the Romans had had a kind of a series of uh you know female Heroes they had you know lacrecia they had you know all of these these figures for women and they’re distinctly female right they’re

Not the same as the male Heroes but they sort of offer a kind of a competing version of like oh this is how you live out Civic virt and and one of the things that’s been interesting in to watch in kind of modern media and I don’t watch much

Modern media because it is by and large garbage and a waste of time is that you’ve seen a flattening in that you know every hero you know regardless of their age race sex or gender is you know effectively a muscle man you know it’s 110 pound woman who can throw punches

Like Arnold you know beats up a bunch of goons and well that’s both kind of boring and lame because it’s not true but also because well how does that serve as a you know a realistic kind of like role model for 110 pound woman you know you’re not going to be out there

Beating up goons you’re just not I mean you can try it won’t go well but when we have kind of a more complex understanding of the heroic a more complex understanding of like what you can be in kind of a pro-social sense you know oh you can be this kind of you know

This this virtuous princess who would rather you know die then you know give up the location of her prince something like that you know you can be you know kind of like the P the mother of Christ like there are different ways for you to be Noble at different stages you can see

That this is a this is a cohesive mesh of examples it’s not just one and obviously you know the the kind of like the the leader on Horseback is is the kind of the tip of that the most exciting one but it is is far from the

Only one you know and I think that it it’s also important to realize that you know there these kind of stations in life are natural and human you know every civilization has recognized this and going along with them has provided like okay you’re a you know you’re a

Young man this is what a young man should strive to be you know the eight-year-old who won’t give up his his father well if you’re a man who’s kind of in the in the prime of his life you know a capable man here’s another example for you and then conversely you

Know the the kind of the sages of Rome at the end of your life a bearded old man you know who who again was was killed by bar bar Arians because he refused to give up his dignity and run and hide you know at each stage of Life

There is an example for you and I’ll speak less to you know the female examples because well I’m not a woman so I know you know kind of the stages a little less well but you know in a more functional Society a society with a

Point we we had a a path mapped out for you at every at every stage whereas now it’s sort of like you know on one hand we’re this kind of like perversely obsessed with youth you know and the best we’ve got as a hero is this kind of

Like teenage Rebel you know we’ve got this kind of like a little bit immature kind of irreverent you know archetype and okay that’s fun you know that could make an interesting story takes on Authority right but that doesn’t work for a whole civilization you know you can’t have a full civilization of you

Know Bandits and gangsters and I I think that it again their father yeah well I mean let’s be honest to quote my my friend John Slaughter it’s it’s like 90% of politics is Downstream of your relationship to your dad which is I mean let’s be honest just true you know but

Yeah I think that that’s that’s another element of this as well and what also adds to what you were saying there is the fact that for the majority of our civilization civilizations history and across civilizations you are steeped in these types of ideas not just in the stories

And and we’ve touched a lot on myth here tonight but not just the stories that you’re told the stories you’re told by your mother while you’re still a child the stories your father tells you when you’re a bit older not just the stories you read in books from your civilization

Or your people it’s also in the physical world around you what do you think statues are what do you think the purpose of statues are do you really think it’s just to to stroke the ego of that person that’s being uh the statues being erected to most statues are built

After that person is dead why do you think that is it’s to remind people on as many occasions as possible this is what you should be striving towards you are not at this level you should be trying to get to this level that’s what I really enjoyed about when I was uh

Fortunate enough to to visit Europe is to see how many statues there are not just statues of uh the greatest figures in their history statues of Local Heroes local politicians people in the past that made a difference people that really made an impact on their society a

Positive one and in South Africa we’re doing it to a small extent now and increasingly so is that we’re building more statues while when we I’m talking about the solidarity movement that I form part of um for example at the at saltech the technical college that we

Built for African students in the middle of the courtyard there’s a statue because it’s a technical college where you learn trades naturally there’s a statue there that celebrates the influence of the Tradesmen as a figure as an archetype throughout the afric’s history but this is something it it

Confronts those students every day that they walk into that courtyard as they go to class they are confronted by that statue and that’s that’s what statues are for to a large extent is to remind people again about the great men and women of the past and the influence that

They had on their society and that you should be striving towards that and there’s so many other examples this is just just a tip of the iceberg but it comes down to that point that conversation that um uh car Benjamin and um uh uh the distributist had Dave on his

Channel where they talked about we just need to start building statues again but it it it touches on the same point we need to start uh uh celebrating Heroes again that’s the Bedrock on what all these conversations or these topics rest on your piece included that conversation included well definitely and you know

The converse of that you know idea that you know her warship is the basis of civilization is that essentially the basis of the civilization is its Heroes right and so I say that not to be to redundant but to kind of shore up your point in the sense that you know a

Destruction of you know a culture’s Heroes and in the American context this is visceral you see this they they kind of gleefully do this is a destruction of that Civilization you know they they are willfully kind of breaking up the fabric of that that previous order and uh

That’s why you know this matters more than just the you know oh the the Aesthetics of it although the Aesthetics are important you know that that famous statue of of Lee it’s sort of emblematic of the whole thing because you know when I lived there they they had the statue

There you know covered in graffiti they had homeless people sleeping there you know it was kind of this totemic symbol of evil and then they tore it down broke down the the beautiful marble plin and replaced it with a pile of dirt literally just a a mud pile and again

That’s sort of emblematic of all of it it’s like you take this away and you have created the the Fulfillment of your idea that you know we are just beasts you’ve done it you know it didn’t have to be this way but you made it true and again

It’s why that that needs to be res we’re all just a collection of atoms just like this this pile of dirt yeah exactly right it’s almost like I couldn’t ask for a more beautiful symbol of what I’m talking about than what you did you know not of course you

Eared but these kind of gender goblins pull I’m sorry to interrupt you there but it’s very eerie that that’s what happened there cuz that’s exactly what happened at in the at the birthplace of this whole anti- statue movement a lot of people don’t know it all started in

South Africa I don’t want to be one of those guys that pretends his uh region or his country is the center of the world when it comes to every Trend but that Trend literally started in South Africa with the toppling of Roads the statue at the University of Cape Town

And then it spread to England and then it bounced over to America but they replaced roads a statue at ucct with a pile of rubble I saw a photograph of the other of it the other day and I couldn’t believe it but they did exactly what you’re describing where you said it’s

The perfect it’s the perfect symbol but it seems almost like Eerie that it it happened twice even to such a such a minute detail well definitely and there’s an extent to which you know South Africa was this sort of test tube Society for the American American Progressive establishment you know no secret if

Afghanistan is the the graveyard of Empires then South Africa is the laboratory of Empire c c certainly right and you know it’s no accident that in the kind of like you know Tarot deck of you know like liberal causes of the last century right it was like in in no

Particular order uh you know anti-apartheid anti-nuclear you know this kind of like laundry list and that was always one of them and you know I think that that’s no accident you know a lot of the a lot of the same things that we have we’ve seen in in your country are

Are sort of coming here and in many cases it’s because they’re designed by the same people you’re just per you’re taking what what we’re experimenting perfecting is is an interesting way to describe it but we’re getting a a modified version certainly I don’t know to whose interest but actually sorry I

Want to go back to the example of that statue of Lee because for interrupting you there not at all the resemblance was just too Eerie I don’t know if you could hear it over the microphone very nice high Fel thunderstorm coming in right now hopeful a production value it does

Come over the microphone oh fair enough well sorry the reason I want to bring this up this next point is because I want to see if the converse is true I want to see if this has happened as well so in in that area Monument Avenue was

This this kind of collection of statues to uh Southern American figures Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy it was also a very wealthy area and you the southern American aristocracy was absolutely gutted by this war they lost many many men they lost the vast majority of their wealth uh and so you

Know these were massive Civic projects from poor people you know people who had been impoverished but wanted to honor their dead and so all the way down Monument Avenue which despite still being called Monument Avenue has no monuments you know every block or so there’s a statue you know there’s the

Big circle with Lee there’s Jeb Stewart up from him you know kind of so on and so forth and they’ve completely taken them down there’s there’s none left but just kind of around the corner near the the art museum there’s the one vaguely human statue that is still allowed and

It is some just abstract shape that nobody can discern what it is yes exactly and it is to it is by the same guy who did Obama’s uh presidential portrait it’s a famous portrait of him in front of this kind of like garish African pattern but it’s a statue and

It’s a deliberate mockery of the statue of Lee and it is just a random black dude in a hoodie on a horse a symbol of basically nobody of nothing other than just sheer resentment you know like we hate you so we made this kind of mockery

Of you and it means nothing past that so have there been that kind of similar like subversions or kind of mirror images of traditional art or is that something we’ve only got here no that’s that’s an example of you perfecting it no in South Africa I can’t remember

Anything like that happening um as a sideliner opinions points out here the monalisa was attacked this week but remember sideliner it it’s just a painting So when it comes to a that phenomenon that you’re describing Jay bden um no we we’ve not we’ve not reached that stage it’s just destruction

At the moment I can’t think there is a no that’s it’s not that new there’s just a the the statue that the thec or the ruling party in South Africa just caught in this cold war loop of well firstly just calling every each other comrade and talking about all these abstract

Like Soviet theories of like the national Democratic Revolution and the balance of forces their vocabulary is stuck there and they also just caught in this death Loop of just being able to build statues of their past Heroes but not even a wide array ofc figures just

Nelson Mandela over and over again so no nothing on that level of just building a statue of a random guy but maybe maybe the the the government in South Africa just hasn’t thought about it that deeply well and that statue of the the random guy and you know in my discussion of

With with academic agent a while back on my show he talked about this town in the UK called called woking which has a similar thing you know it’s it’s sort of a shopping mall of a town and it has these these statues of effectively just random people but posed up like they are

You know figures of not but they’re just right you know a random model in sweatpants and a hoodie and that’s that’s sort of I think how we know that it’s more than just like oh they don’t like you know our particular Heroes because of the reasons they sing you

They really have a bone to pick with that idea of heroism that idea of Merit because they they will deliberately AP that form but use it to promote the ordinary you know the normal guy the just a normal guy and I think that that’s really revealing and it’s

Something not to forget because I I kind of conceptualized this whole thing this is an idea I I lift from my you know my my friend and Mentor Dave the distributive is that this is a war of belief you know this is a war of kind of fundamental assumptions about the way of

The world this is not you know the era of the post-war consensus and where you know it was just a disagreement about you know tax rates or you know what to do with with Farm tariffs like this is a truly a civilizational struggle and you see that in what they are willing to

Promote and what they’re willing to attack and they’re willing to promote their kind of urat fake civilization and they’re willing to attack the remains of a of a living one and I think that that that truly defines you know what a group is which is you know who they’re willing

To attack and who they’re they’re willing to kind of promote I guess well I love how you’ve tied it back now I mean we our topic of conversation has now for a while been just the the relation between statues and the the heroic but I mean the way you’ve tied it

Back now is absolutely perfect where that’s the type of statues that you describe that they’re building now it’s just statues to you’re just a normal guy so we’re going to if statues as we established are the things that you should Aspire towards the heroic or the

The type of figures that you should have at the back of mind when you think about what I want to be building a statue of just a guy in a hoodie on a on a on a horse is literally just sending the message you should be fighting to be or

Striving to be a normal guy that should be the the Pinnacle that that man standing at top of the top of the mountain he’s just a normal guy and you should be trying to be that normal guy it’s it’s very strange and and Eerie how

It how it all fits together now now that we’ve brought it full circle to here no definitely and and this is why just to kind of zoom out a little I really enjoy these kind of interview podcasts even if it’s a topic that I’ve already covered

Before because I have this is an essay that I talked about or anyway because you sort of get to Workshop these ideas and see you know kind of Greater significant than you got your kind of first first runaround and so this was an invaluable discussion I really do appreciate it well I always

Put the disclaimer here that my there’s a big difference between my live content and my written content and that is in the written content I’ve actually put a lot of lot of thought in this is more exploring ideas some of the ideas here are Half Baked and I often

Turn live streams into essays later but that’s when I can take some of these ideas and actually put some re assault them really with some some thorough thought um but that’s it’s it’s invaluable to me as well in that regard um so we’re approaching the end now I

Wanted to read just uh one passage from your piece maybe to give a little bit of a an appetizer for people that want to go read it after the stream and just want to get some of your final thoughts in that regard but this is one of my

Favorite uh parts of your essay except for the the final part but I don’t want to read the final part I’d rather have people go read the the conclusion for themselves so you wrote that uh the word just just does a lot of heavy lifting for Progressive social entropy you find

This phrase littered through Progressive spaces online and in print and Reddit reminds you that you’re just a brain piloting a bone Mech covered in meat Neil degrass Tyson reminds you that you’re just a speck of matter in the infinite nothingness of an uncaring universe and love Is Just A chemical

Reaction in your brain now I wanted to highlight that passage because it brings us all the way back to where this conversation started of all these ritis all these degress tysonism of just just just and it brings brings me to my final question to you Mr buron and that is a

More practical question just a distilled answer of what is there to be done about this you we’ve identified the problem we’ve described it we’ve done a 3D model of the problem we’ve scanned it we’ve uh wrote a thesis on the problem but now we have to get to work and actually do

Something about it what’s your what would your your Remedy or your prescription be in that regard well well to to kind of paraphrase Jonathan Bowen it’s to step over it you know this is the these sort of attacks are not and we we’ve beaten this to death but they’re

Not good faith you know this is not someone who is concerned about historical accuracy it’s someone who wants to destroy civilization and view them as such you know and just in the same way that you know you wouldn’t accept you know weapons from your enemy before you go out into battle you know

You wouldn’t trust them for that why why do you trust these people’s history why do you trust the the narratives they produce because you have better Alternatives you know you have this this great tradition behind you full of examples for you full of examples for your children for your family and you

Can pull from that you know we have plenty plenty of Heroes we have plenty of narratives that you can use to kind of fill up your life with you know again like you can’t deny that that is a part of what it is to be human and again the the current examples to

Hand you know the kind of modern examples are poison and deliberately so and so essentially it is one you know stop accepting you know narratives from your enemy stop accepting the weapons they handed you to fight them and then also just step over this kind of petty

Squabbling step over the you know the man who says oh well you know Jefferson had a relationship with a slave and so we throw out everything he ever did you know step over the man that says well Napoleon was this weird sort of incel simp like step over it because it’s not

Real it’s not true to them it is it is a a a weapon they are preparing to hurt you with and again like I said this is an attack on the kind of Bedrock of of civilization and you know the these people are truly and I mean this not in

The kind of like hyperbolic sense but they’re on a satanic Mission they’re on a mission of inversion they’re on a mission of pure entropy and uh once you’ve accepted that truth why do you give their opinions any weight whatsoever ex they’re they’re truly despicable in their in their outlook on

Life and once you’ve accepted that well I don’t really care what a Despicable man thinks I think that’s a that’s a powerful place to end it incidentally the storm is just picked up out here I don’t know if you can hear it over the over the microphone but yeah it’s a a

Typical high Fel thunderstorm here nice summer rain here in the city of Petoria Jay buron thank you very much for your your time and your insights and uh my last question to you is not a theoretical question but rather just a practical question where can people find

You if they want to hear more about here some more of your thoughts some of your more uh not Half Baked but fully baked thoughts and where can they find some of your thoughts all across the Spectrum sure my my main output is the J burden

Show it’s twice a week hourly or hourong interview show uh if you’ve listened to this podcast it’s a very similar format there’s only so many ways to talk to people on the internet but I’ve talked to lots of people you have heard of i’ I’ve talked to Ernst a few months back

Hopefully we’ll have them on again soon but just recently I I’ve talked to Ed Dutton Andrew isker one of the the big Christian nationalists you know any number of of people you’re interested in hearing from I also have my substack which you can is also under the JB

Burden show where I you know rough roughly once a week or so post an essay on on something that’s important to me they’re all free you know I you can just read them I don’t try to pay all them you can pretty much find whatever you

Want there and uh those are the two easiest ways to find me I’m also on Twitter but I’m not going to recommend that to anyone Twitter in general is a colossal waste of time and so yeah you should you should check me out as a as a

Podcaster and as a writer first and foremost Ernst I believe you’re muted yeah one second I was just uh checking if I can minimize some of the sound here from my side but it doesn’t seem like it’s possible but I think the timing is is perfect now thank you very

Much uh Jay burden thank you for uh sharing some of your insights and for those that are too lazy to go uh type in what you’ve uh what you described there there’s links to everything in the description go check it out and it will be well worth your time and we can chat

Again on your channel anytime when uh when you can fit me in so my last thank you is just to the the audience thank you very much for tuning in thank you for sharing this content and uh thank you for all your questions and comments during the show I love putting them on

The screen making them part of the content it adds just another layer of depth to the conversation and to to the the broader topic so thank you very much and uh thank you as well also for those that uh tune in that when it’s no longer

Live but still put their thoughts in the comment section I read all of them really appreciate it and uh thank you for that and then lastly um thank just a last thank you to my guest again Jay burden thank you for your insights and

Uh I hope to chat to you again real soon and good luck with all of your creative and content creating Endeavors in the year ahead and uh your striving to be more heroic yes thank you very much all right cheers guys have a good one and God bless