In 2019, the UK government passed trailblazing legislation committing itself to achieving ‘net zero’ greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. The UK has already made significant progress in decarbonising its economy: carbon emissions have fallen by over 45% from the 1990s levels. This has been mainly achieved through centrally directed policy to decrease emissions from power generation, by substituting coal generation for gas and investment in renewable energy.
But reducing emissions further will require disruptive policy and behavioural change across a wider range of sectors, involving a more diffuse set of actors. Metro mayors and local government in England will play a key role, given their powers in critical areas such as transport, planning, housing, skills and economic strategy.
This event explored how mayors and other local leaders are using devolved powers to achieve net zero at the regional level, by supporting the growth of green industry and energy, investing in clean transport and infrastructure, retrofitting houses and buildings to reduce emissions, and upskilling the population for the green jobs of the future.
Drawing on research it published earlier this year, Net zero and devolution: The role of England’s mayors in the climate transition, the Institute for Government hosted a virtual event in partnership with The Royal Society to discuss these questions.
To explore these questions and more, our expert panel included:
Ed Cox, Executive Director – Strategy, Economy & Net Zero at the West Midlands Combined Authority (WMCA)
Professor Joanna D. Haigh, Research Fellow at Imperial College London
Rosa Hodgkin, Researcher at the Institute for Government
Shirley Rodrigues, Deputy Mayor for Environment and Energy at the Greater London Authority
The event was chaired by Akash Paun, Programme Director at the Institute for Government.
Read our report on net zero and devolution: https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publication/net-zero-devolution
See more of our work on net zero: https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/our-work/topics/net-zero
Hello and welcome to ifg live for today’s Institute for government event on how local leaders can help England to reach Net Zero which is also the subject of a report we published in February called Net Zero and Devolution The Institute for government is delighted to be working in partnership with the Royal
Society to bring you this event so many thanks to the RS for their kind support of our work my name is Akash pound I’m program director for Devolution here at the ifg and I’ll be chairing today’s conversation with our excellent panelist who I’ll be introducing in a moment
We’ll be discussing what progress the country has made so far with reducing carbon emissions the state of the government strategy for reaching Net Zero by the Target date of 2050 and then really focusing on the specific role that local leaders Metro Mayors local Council leaders can play for instance
Via their control of transport housing retrofit skills budgets and we’ll also be talking about whether further Devolution could help England cities and regions and the country as a whole therefore to go further and faster with decarbonization so thanks very much to you all for joining and and thank you to
Our four speakers for spending the time to talk us through these questions so first of all warm welcome to Professor Joanna ha who’s fellow of the Royal Society our partners on this event a research fellow at Imperial College London and formerly co-director of the Grantham Institute also at Imperial
College Joe thanks for joining us thanks and uh uh second our speaker joining us from here at the ifg my colleague Rosa hodkin who works on policymaking and Net Zero um and previously worked as an analyst for the climate Think Tank influence map hi Rosa how you doing great to be here great
Thanks thanks a lot for for joining us um third welcome to Shirley Rodriguez who is London’s deputy mayor for environment and energy a post she’s held since 2016 and in that role she’s working to help deliver the mayor of London’s L uh e environment strategy for the city
Shirley delighted to have you with us thanks for having me thank you and finally we’re joined by Ed Cox who works closely with metr mayor Andy Street as executive director for strategy economy and Net Zero at the West Midlands combined Authority Ed hello good to see you again so I’ll be uh putting
Questions to our panelists in a moment uh to our online audience those of you watching live you can submit questions to any individual panelist or the panel as a whole via the Q&A function on teams and I will weave some of the questions into the conversation you can also
Upvote other people’s suggestions for what I should ask and and do please say who you are and where you’re from if you don’t mind being identified um the event being recorded and it’ll be uploaded to our website our YouTube and podcast channels um shortly afterwards we’re also live
Tweeting the event from the ifg events account using the hashtag ifg NetZero um okay so let’s get started um so Professor heg Joe I’d like to to start with you um the UK’s reduced its its carbon emissions by nearly 50% now since uh the early
1990s largely due to a big shift in the way that the country produces electricity so shift away from from from coal uh powered uh Coal Power stations in particular um given where we are now and the the mix of of carbon emissions that the country still has to
Eliminate what do you see as the biggest challenges we face if the country is to reach that 2050 Target and and as it stands now do you think we are on track to meet that well as you say we we need to reach Net Zero by 2050 and if nobody’s clear
About that it’s because carbon dioxide in particular is very long lived in the atmosphere once it gets in there it’ll stay there and it and the surface temperature responds to that so the more CO2 in the atmosphere the warmer it gets so we need to stop emitting in order to
Stop the temperature rising that’s a very clear thing to do and to limit global warming to one and a half for two degrees which is what um the UN interp on climate change said is necessary to avoid the worst uh responses to climate change um we need
To adapt the whole of the uh activity and strong action by everybody um National governments devolved governments private sector local government Civil Society communities households and all the economic sectors so in the UK we were sort of ahead of the game for a while and um earlier in the century we
Established um six carbon budgets six five-year carbon budgets each set centered on um 20 from 2010 centered on 2010 2015 2020 Etc they’re enshrined in law so the government is required to meet them and the first three have actually been met we’re now in the middle of the fourth carbon budget we
Looks like we’re sort of on track to meet that um the fifth one’s a bit more shaky but there are really not on track to meet the sixth carbon budget um which is around 2035 and this is a real concern it’s to it’s to reduce the the emissions by 78% by that
Time so um a huge transformation is necessary um outside the electricity um sector um which we’ve already heard about then annual emissions need to be reduced by 4.7% per year in order to meet that Target and at the moment it’s 1.2% per year so you can see we’re nowhere near on track
Um to meet that fourth to meet the sixth carbon budget and it will need um action in uh all the sector transport industry buildings heating all the rest of them to do stuff the climate change committee which is a government advisory body has suggested that um uh agriculture and
Land use policy is particularly badly designed or not at all and also there needs to be much more attention to the planning system but all the energy all the economic sectors need um addressing there was um a court case interesting Court R bought brought last year by client Earth and partners
Including Friends of the earth which required the UK to produce a carbon budget delivery plan so the government to describe how it was going to meet these carbon budgets and indeed they published one in March this year but um it’s been widely criticized as relying much too heavily on um unproven and high-risk
Technologies such as carbon capture and hydrogen and not on uh near-term action in doing stuff now so I think um particularly client Earth is going to seek a judicial review on that uh recent government decisions on uh the cumbrian coal mine on North Sea gas permits the delay in the ban on
Fossil fuel car sales Are all uh very disappointing and not going to help at all I think I’ll leave it there okay thanks Joe that’s a that’s a really helpful um overview of of where we are and and and and what what needs to be done Rosa I’d like to come to you
Next I mean you’ve you’ve written for the ifg on the the government’s strategy and and approach to to to to to to tackling climate change um I mean what’s what’s your assessment what what what is the state of the the government’s strategy and in in in particular what role does it see
For local leaders in in helping with decarbonization and reaching Net Zero yes so I was thinking about this question of does it have a credible strategy and the answer I came up with was sort of um so at a very high level as Jonah was saying it’s published this
Carbon budget delivery plan after the previous plan was was challenged and caught and it sets out kind of these are the policies it sees using to hit at zero but it’s a very tight path it really doesn’t leave a lot of space at all for things going wrong or for kind
Of future changes in policy so for example the announcement that we saw on a 20% exemption for fossil fuel boiler phase out the climate change committee said that had made really increase the risks of hitting that Zero by 2050 so there is a strategy but it really
Requires delivery to start at PACE now and at the moment the pace of policy development and delivery is just not there really um in terms of us hitting both 2050 and also the interim Targets in 2030 which the climate change committee has said it thinks it’s
Unlikely that the UK is going to hit when it comes to the role of local leaders the government said quite a lot on local authorities which are already delivering some parts of this particular when you look at social housing retrofit for example um it said a lot less on May
Um I had a quick look through the Caron budget delivery plan I can only find two mentions of Mars in there compared to quite a few more mentions of local authorities so I don’t think it’s been particularly clear on the role for either but it’s definitely said more
About local authorities than about local leaders like Mays um the main thing I would say both in terms of the government’s overall strategy and in terms of the role of local leaders is what what we kind of still need is more clarity about who the government sees
Doing what by when so ideally you’d like it to be kind of we’ve got seven years to 2030 we’ve got 27 years to 2050 these are the things we think need to be delivered this is what we see being delivered by this group at this time so
That then people had a sense of what they were being expected to deliver what kind of support they were going going to get to facilitate that and could kind of plan ahead for what um they needed to be doing at what point great thanks thanks Rosa um okay
So uh Shirley I’d like to come to you now I mean we’ve we’ve heard already quite a bit about the the 2050 Target greater London the mayor of London has set a much more ambitious maybe aspirational Target of of making London a net zero City by 2030 so so in just
Seven years or so um do you want to tell us a bit about well that Target and what the GLA and and the mayor and and and yourself are doing using devolved powers to try and make progress towards that um as I say quite imminent deadline that um
That that you’ve set yourself of of 2030 so I sort of agree with uh with Joe and Roser I think on on on their analysis um really I I think the the role of local Mayors is absolutely critical um and local leaders in in delivery um and what we’re not getting
Is is Clarity on um the the pathway the the the support whether it’s powers or or funding so in the absence of that I think it is rely on on local leaders to take take up the mantle um and that’s what um the mayor of hondon sidon has
Done so you know he declared a climate emergency in 2018 and brought forward his Target from 50 for D to be a net Zer carbon City to 2030 precisely because of the urgency of action that’s that’s needed uh not just in the UK but globally um we’re seeing the impacts of
Climate change already uh in uh you know around the world in in the UK and in land particularly you know people who you know may remember the the sort of extreme heat events the the wildfires that we saw destroying homes um in in in London um flash flooding events
Increasing frequency and severity of that and you know and we we’ve been very lucky I think not to have had a really bad uh sort of experience like New York has done where where we’ seeing sort of loss of life and and and and um
And so on but um so having said we want to bring forward our Target you know we’ve done what um I think Ros was talking about you know trying to understand what the challenge is um so we commissioned some research um to identify four scenarios that we might
Take to to try to get to 2030 and the mayor has selected one uh which looked at a sort of pragmatic approach but even that has you know just sets out the scale of the challenge we have to meet you know sort of 100 200,000 homes a
Year need to be retrofitted 26 and a half thousand commercial buildings have to be retrofitted we’ve got to connect up uh you know heat pumps in the order of 2 to three million heat pumps by 20130 we’re going to do all of this let alone um you know reducing vehicle
Kilometers so that we can cut transport emissions but you know having having identified that challenge you know we are all um at the GLA and the um Associated organizations like Transport for London and working very closely with London local authorities through their uh representative organization London councils are trying to come together on
Some of those big um big challenges um we don’t have all the powers that um that we need so that the strongest powers that the mayor has has always been planning then trans and then over time as as there has been some Devolution you know we have some control
Over the education budget on skills for example housing as well but you know we don’t have um control for example over the ability to retrofit our homes or buildings in London that you know the the sort of setting of Energy Efficiency standards and the ability to fund that
Is distributed and you know we have to go through this um ridiculous bidding um cycle that local authorities have to do with very little time changing of policy and then you know having to hand back funding so that you know there is no long-term sort of funding pot single
Funding pot Clarity policy that we can then just get on gone with it and obviously um local authorities understand much better you know what the needs are you know what you know what we need to do in London and the makeup of our city is going to be very different
From from you know how Ed deals with um issues in in the West Midland you know with Andy um but you know sik says it’s the good news the good news is that um you know even with the powers that we have we have made huge strides so on
Planning for example we were able to set tougher standards you know the government got did away with the I think it was the future homes standard or the equivalent of that we were able to retain that and we’ve seen because of that drive through the planning policy
We’ve set in London the London plan um we’ve been delivering um emissions reductions that are 50% greater than the required by building regulations and that’s because we’ve set that long-term policy um and and that set signal to developers who are bringing that forward with no no uh you know
Um uh no impact really on on delivery of homes or or buildings in fact on um emissions you know we’re seeing that uh you know per capita emissions um better than than the cuk I think um partly because of the density and because we’re also you know uh because we have
Reliance on good public transport and so on on um vehicle reductions we’ve seen through for example the expansion of the ultral low Mission Zone uh we’ve seen many thousands uh tens of thousands of vehicles coming off our road which is going to help um you know both air
Quality but also climate change uh we’re cleaning up our buses you know we have um I think something in the order of 1,200 buses uh the electric or hydrogen we have a third of the UK’s electric vehicle charging points these are all policy driven within the gift of the
Sort of what we have but we think that we could do much more if you know those Powers uh and and funding were devolved to to local leaders local Mayors okay great and uh yeah I definitely want to return shortly to that specific question of further Devolution and and and and whether
London is on the path for uh a new Devolution deal which nice segue to the West Midland um so so so um West Midlands also has a has an earlier Net Zero Target 2041 um in in your case um West Midlands has also recently concluded a a further
Devolution deal a Trailblazer deal as it’s called which will provide additional Powers um potentially including some of those things that London doesn’t have like greater control of of retrofitting for example um so I mean I’m interested to hear from you first of all I mean what progress have
You been able to make with the powers you already have or have had you know over the past few years um in in reducing emissions and then what do you think the the new powers coming on stream are going to enable you to to to do that um other places like London
Could could then learn from sure well thanks a cash I mean there’s there’s a lot lot going on and uh there’s not enough time to kind of cover it all off uh in in just the short time we’ve got together so I will just give you a
Flavor but you’re absolutely right um we set a an evidence-based Target similar to the way Shirley described uh for greater London of 2041 based on various scenarios uh and then we’ve developed um what’s known as our Five-Year Plan uh so the first five years to 2041 and within
That there are 15 goals um so again all very evidence-based um but then you have to look at those 15 goals and and say well what is it that we can actually do and I think we see the role of the mayor and the combined Authority um as if you
Like a a convener a leader uh and I think it’s really important just to make this point that we’re not doing this for government sometimes we have conversations um which sound as though the only reason local authorities or combined authorities get up in the morning is because government has given
Them some powers or given them something that they can do um we’re doing this because the West Midlands has huge um economic and environmental opportunities uh and we’re seeking to seize those the extent to which government helps us to do that I think uh is highly contingent
And you know we’ll come back to that when we talk a bit more about about Devolution but I think it’s really important to say up front that as a political leader in his own right the mayor of the West Midlands is driving a low carbon uh agenda because it is the
Right thing to do not because government says it’s the right thing to do and indeed I’ll make this point now that you know one of the constraints on Devolution in relation to uh decarbonization is that the government consistently says well we’ve got legally binding targets and therefore can we
Trust you to do things and our argument would be well just pass on those legally binding targets to us and we will absolutely make the progress that we need to make so just to give you a flavor of some of the areas in which we’re working um transport obviously is
A huge area as Shirley has referenced um we’ve just developing a new local transport plan that puts carbonization absolutely the at the center of all of that specific projects like centry electric bus City I think it’s the first city to have 100% electric buses um but
You know the progress is slow it’s very very challenging to get people out of their cars um particularly when as a connation like the West Midlands you know it’s sort of the car connation in that sense so there’s some big challenges there huge huge constraints on transport Revenue funding as well so
That makes make providing a public transport system that much more difficult in The Current financial environment on energy um we’ve got our own energy Agency energy Capital that have done some amazing work we’ve got a regional energy strategy uh lots of innovation around heat networks local area energy planning and that kind of
Thing um but again critical strategic role that we play is in convening Energy Systems Partners uh we have something called The Net Zero infrastructure delivery panel the first region to pull together all of the providers uh the energy infrastructure companies onto one panel where we can hold them to account
In a much greater way and now off gem have seen that and said right uh we need something called Regional energy strategic planning uh very invisible not very retail politics but something that’s incredibly important and that makes possible the kind of announcement that the chancellor made um last week
About connecting us making making grid connections that much more effective for business on domestic retrofit um huge amount uh there I mean I mean the way in which government provides retrofit funding through these tiny competitions that all our different local authorities and registered providers have to bid for
Time and time again with very narrow constraints both in terms of the time scales to deliver um but also what it can be spent on is incredibly difficult and certainly inhibits the market from developing so what we’ve done as a combined Authority is to try to convene um registered providers local
Authorities and put in um you know collaborative bids for government funding so we get the scale uh so I think we’ve got 80 million pound worth of retrofit funding ongoing at the moment that helps us then to shape the local market to build the skills uh and
To to to really get that system going but it’s still very very peac meal um we’re also um have a a demonstrator program where what we’re trying to do is what we call Net Zero neighborhoods where we look at a whole range of different ways in which we can
Decarbonize in a particular neighborhood hinging around retrofit and again I think government has seen that as an example of of how you can do this more systematically so as part of our Trailblazer Devolution deal now um it looks as though we’re going to have what they’re describing as a retrofit pilot
Which will mean that we can actually have 5 years worth of guaranteed funding around retrofit so that we can actually unlock some of that demonstrator approach and shape the market to a much much greater effect and of course with the housing funding that we’ve got as
Well we’ve got to make sure that we’re building houses that aren’t going to need retrofitting so again like surely we’ve got a future home strategy which uh kind of ramps up the conditions upon which we um can can can apply to developers who are wanting to build uh
New homes lots of work on environment and adaptation I haven’t got time to go through it all uh so I won’t don’t don’t panic but we’ve got a regional tree strategy we’ve um uh helped plant half a million trees in the last um 18 months or so a regional climate adaptation
Strategy we’re doing lots of work on the Circ economy we have a road map around that and we’ve just the combined Authority board has just published a regional air quality framework so lots of work on air quality as well a lot of that hinges around Behavior change and
Again it’s where local leadership is so key because I think we can be a lot better at unlocking Behavior change at that local level so quite a lot of work on you know how do we how do we kind of publicize that how do we work with citizens panels ageing together Forum
We’ve got and so on on some of those issues last couple of things to say um you know public sector is really not going to be the one ultimately that drives the kind of changes that we need to see I’ve mentioned the public and the role of behavior change but also our
Economy and we see um you know the drive to Net Zero has being a huge opportunity to unlock the green economy in the West Midland so that is a lot of the sort of Drive behind this the push behind this and we’ve got three uh High growth
Clusters in the West Midlands that are particularly focused on um different aspects of the green economy uh one of which um is around um batteries and electrification uh and our investment Zone hangs that was announced last week hangs around the Coventry and War Giga Park which is very much F focused on
Batteries and electrification um we also recognize that um our economy needs something slightly different so a lot of the focus in terms of decarbonization and the economy goes to the big producers of energy or the big users of energy which are very often Coastal we’re at the
Other end of the pipeline when it comes to energy use um so for us it’s all about Smart Energy Systems and distribution and it’s about small and mediumsized Enterprises and how they make the energy transition and much government policy doesn’t really address that those particular challenges so we
Have to have our own economic strategy as to how we help businesses transition uh and government I think is starting to get aware of that and then finally just to mention green Finance because all of this needs paying for um and so we’re doing quite a lot of work in the uh kind
Of green Finance space there are other combined authorities doing similar putting together funds trying to put together projects and pipelines of projects so that private investors can come in and invest at scale we’ve had limited success I have to be honest on that front it’s very difficult I still
Think that um private sectors and the the investor market so to speak is still needing stronger signal from national government to be able to feel comfortable to invest but what we can do in the region we are doing um and I think we’ve got some sort of small
Indications of success on that front I’ll finished where Shirley finished you know so much more that we could do if more was devolved to us um but through the Trailblazer Devolution deal I think we’re heading in the right direction now and it remains to be seen whether um
Desens are really prepared to kind of open up some of that um opportunity if you like that is created through the Trailblazer Devolution deal particularly around retrofit uh to see what more we can do uh in order to prove that American bind authorities um Can can address climate change alongside
National government great thank you Ed certainly a lot going on in the West Midlands and yeah we’ll be watching the implementation of the the Trailblazer deal and the that further transfer of powers to West Midlands and and greater Manchester as well very closely um Shirley I wanted to come back to you
Though on on this on this uh question I mean you’re obviously watching closely what what’s happening in these other city regions what would you like to see uh change in terms of the the powers of the mayor of London and the GLA and is that on the cards I mean are you having
Those negotiations in any way with government which you know seems open to Devolution to to other parts of the country but but London has not really been part of the the conversation recently it seems the focus has been on helping other places to to catch up with
London yeah it does feel a little bit like a one-sided conversation we’ve certainly been making the case for a long time that um if you you know Devolution is good good for the country it’s good for for our ability to deliver in our city and then what we do in
London does help benefit um you know other parts of the of the country you know for one example is the the the the very long-term ask of a long-term capital funding settlement for transport for London um and we’ve been making the case about um that ability to have that
Um devolved would then give us long-term certainty to bring in the investment that Ed has talked about but also plan um and then that benefits um the supply chain um the bulk of which is outside of London so three quarters of that I think of those um jobs and supply chain and
Companies are outside of London so you know the the the sort of seaman trains or the Asam trains or um even as you go down to to even smaller the manufacturers outside will benefit from that investment and because we can’t um um plan you know we have to go through
This churn of um as we are doing at the moment you know sort of relooking and waiting for government to apply so that we can then uh work out what can we do and then because they don’t give us information then we have to spend a lot
Of time rep prioritizing and then keep keep that negotiation um we would love to have a longterm funding settlement around ret fit we’ve been making that case for a long time you know all of us many local authorities you know going through this sort of stop start flip-flop um bidding regime you know
It’s a lot of time and um from offices spent on um on these schemes and then um again for the supply chain for people to to even understand and have the confidence to train and skill up people to you know for for for companies to invest you know they don’t want to do
That they’ve seen and they’ve been burnt by by uh examples in the past with the green New Deal for example where where things were pulled uh and we’ve seen the you know we experienced the impacts of that because you know um our homes are not fit for purpose for Energy
Efficiency let alone indeed for for you know adapting to the impacts of climate change that we’re seeing now and that you know whil we talk about net we really shouldn’t be forgetting that we need to be adapting our our um cities our homes our businesses to the impact
Of climate change that we’re already seeing and and that’s a really big issue too that you know Devolution would would help um in London for example we’ve been you know we’ve had an adaptation strategy for many years and fed that those sort of policies through the London plan and various other things but
We’ve asked um Emma Howard Boyd to chair a um a sort of review Aton climate resilience you to understand um you know um the preparedness or not you know where do we need to to Really amp up um work in London to to be more resilient a
Lot of that however is dependent on government setting standards setting strategies which they keep punting on um which is affecting us in London businesses in London and and putting people at risk you know um communities at risk as well um on um you know so I’ve talked about um uh transport or
Devolution deal there housing RIT absolutely as as you know EDS talked about that that five-year guaranteed funding that would be fantastic so we’re working with London councils to develop a a sort of um a view on what we could do collectively to deliver a sort of improved retrofit delivery model what
That would take and then how that would help in terms of skills um you know we we’ve done the analysis in terms of the sort of um green economy and the jobs in London and it’s worth you know it’s a huge sector 50 billion uh worth in sales
And we have an ambition to double that by 2030 um but we need um that certainty of funding and powers in order to be able to do that we can carry on and we’ll grow that but it won’t be at the pace um or at the scale that’s needed to really
Meet this challenge by 2030 2050 okay terrific thanks for that um okay so uh Rosa I want to come back to you I mean we’ve we’ve we’ve heard from from both Shirley and Ed about what’s going on at the devolved level how further Devolution um could maybe help those
Those places to to to move faster um what what do you think national government um could do to better enable local leaders to to to to to lead on this agenda but also the flip side of that question is where are the limits of devolution I mean what are the things
That central government has to get right at that National level yeah so I mean I think Ed and Shirley have set it out really well on kind of both halves of that question so in terms of what central government can do to better support local leaders I think policy
Certainty funding certainty are the real key ones like they were saying you it’s so hard to build up those Supply chains when you’ve got policy flip-flopping um if when you look at housing retrofit particularly we’ve had so many different schemes over the last few years um you hear from businesses
Well why would be engaged with that scheme the last one didn’t work it might only last six months they don’t want to scale up in the assumption that a scheme will last if it’s not necessarily going to last I think that’s really really important and simly kind of long-term
Funding settlements being able to know that you have X amount of funding for a certain period and you can really actually plan what you’re going to do there I think both those are the really key things um and in terms of what kind of only central government can do I think again
It’s the kind of setting an overall strategy setting standards and then coordinating um you need central government to say this is how we see us getting to Net Zero as a country as a whole and then within that what they’re expecting local areas to do you can’t
You need someone doing that kind of overall picture um in order to facil facilitate local areas to then do their parts of it okay thanks and um I can see lots of questions coming in from the audience which is great um I’ll come to those in a moment before that one one final
Question for you Joe um I mean we’ve we’ve heard um quite a lot about reducing carbon emissions and so on couple of mentions also of adaptation to the effects of climate change and I want to ask you specifically about that I mean what do you see as the the role
For for local leaders in ensuring that that places are able to adapt to the effects of of of climate change yes because it used to be 20 years ago that we didn’t talk about adaptation because it was sort of suggested in that way you’d failed to
Meet the challenge of um not doing theem missions but now it’s very clear when the M of all these climate change and weather effects and we need to have adaptation um there’s opportunities rightly across all areas of policy we’ve already heard about planning decisions that need to be compatible with Net
Zero um a new infrastructure that needs to be built at the same time resilient to current and future climate hazards that will be um essential many sectors can benefit from an an Adaptive planning approach where sort of No Regrets options are pursued um to current climate impacts would also
Um avoid a lockin to unsustainable measur measures there’s um on the positive side there’s um the co- benefits of acting on climate change and actually there’s very little that you can do on climate change it doesn’t have co- benefits so um we’ve already heard from Ed about the the
Green economy and and the co- benefits to economy and jobs and that sort of side of things of um acting on climate change but but also for example if you reduce fossil fuels um both in industry and in transport and improve air quality that has an immediate effect on um you
Know lung disease and and uh especially in urban areas and also climate change um action can affect many other areas of life so um if you do things like plant more trees um it will make make life better um and um as I said don’t think there’s
Much you can do on on climate change it does doesn’t improve health so active travel is another thing if if you’re walking or cycling rather than going in the car then you’re going to be more healthy so I think um all of these things are good
Um the other side of adaptation is that it typically delivers High benefit to cost ratio so it’s you you have to put a bit of investment in but then you can see the benefits partly in terms of health requirements and things go down and other needs go down so the benefits
Are bigger than just the the climate ones I’ll leave it there yes great I think that’s that’s a really important Point um Okay cool so let’s uh let’s bring in some questions from from the audience there’s there’s lots of interesting points coming in um I’d like to start with a question from
Uh Jacob Coburn from The Young Foundation who asks what role can local leaders play in ensuring that people are not left behind from the transition uh especially in recog izing those that are most vulnerable um and the development of policy and provision that that can reduce these
Risks um so who would like to pick that one I’m Shirley um do you have thoughts on that question yeah sure um it’s absolutely critical so when when sadique talks about um our work he talks about uh social justice a lot and and you know that the jargon of just transition um
But this is absolutely core to to what we’re trying to do at the GLA so on um you know all of our policies we look to see um understand what what the impacts are on on uh communities in London and who are you know who may be more
Disadvantaged um and how we might then mitigate that or redesign codesign the policies to make sure that they don’t um we have um for example um done some mapping in London uh with the assistance of Bloomberg Associates to um map the um for examp example the the sort of areas
In London which are more likely to be affected by climate impacts overlaying that with levels of deprivation exposure to air pollution so that we you know we’re able to use that to understand where are the areas of London that that may need more targeting in terms of our
Funding and using that for some of our programs at the GLA already and and trying to get others in London also to to use this so so for example some of our programs on uh tree planting and and and uh creating and supporting green spaces for example in some of V
Neighborhood regeneration programs um specifically on on how do we make sure that um people um are not disadvantaged so again some of our um programs where we help um entrepreneurs and and sort of smmes we we there’s a program called better Futures where we certainly um and
It came into its own really during um the pandemic pandemic where we we provided funding to help people who are uh who were um single businesses basically to uh with the support and training that they needed to keep going during the pandemic and then to help
Them to recover and sort of grow and that’s really targeted at um female owners um um people from the black Asian minority ethnic communities and so on and so that’s very successful and then a third example I’d give is we’ve got a program called future neighborhoods 2030 so using um we’ve identified two
Um two areas in London you know so it was through a bidding program one in Summertown in Camden and one in um in Kensington Chelsea nottingdale where two Estates um high levels of deprivation but um where they came forward saying we want to um codesign strategies and it
Was led by the local community so it was very clear and it was part of the the bidding program that it wasn’t led by local Authority and then done to local people it was really what did they want to see what do they understand to be the challeng Alles and they’ve worked with
The local authorities and others in the area to co-design um programs and they’re um implementing you know huge range of um initiatives and projects to really show what what u a sort of a a neighborhood that is uh climate resilient um Net Zero uh by 2030 could
Look like and this covers a whole host of issues from um Greening uh electric vehicle charging retrofitting homes zero waste type uh initiatives um so these are really trying to give people agency we understand it’s very difficult for some communities to to get involved and
Get you know you know are not the sort of traditional recipient so how do we make sure that they are able to access that funding and that often is starts with the criteria but also there’s a lot of work that our communities team um do to to get out there and and really
Encourage you know a whole host of people whether it’s young people all the way through to to Faith communities to G engaged and certainly we have in London um um we developed this during the the pandemic a London recovery board where we brought all the agencies together
Whether it was the GLA the transport for London the NHS um other ranker institutions like universities but on that grouping we have business London um we have members of the faith communities and we have uh members of the youth Board youth panel as well so we get those voices from um around London
That’s now um Mor into a London partners ship board where again we have a number of um areas of work missions that we’re working on the one that I’m I’m working on as a green New Deal Mission but there are others around uh Safety and Security economic recovery um mental health and
So on so getting that um multi- AGC sort of input uh from people and then they they bring in the perspectives from others as well great okay thanks um all right another question then coming from uh Martin weatley uh which I was going to put to to to you
Rosa um so Martin notes that uh well more than 15 years ago uh Kirkley and other councils showed the effectiveness of a council Le Street by Street approach to domestic retrofit and his question is why has central government been so resistant to unlocking the potential of councils to meet this big
Net Zero challeng for which there isn’t in his view a credible National Approach at the moment so yeah I mean what why are we seeing if if you agree with that premise um this this caution on the part part of central government to to let local places lead on this
Agenda yeah I saw that question I think it’s a really interesting one um the short answer is I don’t really know um I think uh oh seems like he might know would you like to come in Ed I was going to come back to Ed in a
Minute um you carry on Rosa I I’ll come in after you okay um so what I was gonna say was I think the government has started taking more of this approach so if you look at the social housing decarbonization fund which um was brought in I think around the same time
As the green homes Grant but has been significantly more successful I would say in part because it’s been working much more closely with local author I ities um rather than kind of a very centrally designed and controlled scheme um and in that one they have been working much more closely with local
Authorities on like doing social housing in chunks um and that seems to have been more effective um so I would kind of hope that they’re looking at the lessons that they can learn from that and seeing how they could apply that more widely yeah okay thanks well I mean as Ed was
Talking about before the the the the new trail laser includes this this pilot so there is there is a that degree of appetite to test out more locally LED approaches and and to to to learn from them um Ed I I I’ll let you respond on that specific point but the other
Question I wanted to put to you um specifically has come in from Janine at Lancaster University who notes that Lancashire um has just announced a new Devolution deal as inde there were four new Devolution deals announced last week There’s a few others being implemented over the next year or
Two so there there’s a whole bunch of places basically following in the footsteps of of places like West Midlands greater Manchester Etc the question is is there a framework in place for sharing lessons between local authorities or or combined authorities and what could they learn from your Net
Zero journey in the West Midlands I think that’s a really interesting question question I mean the institute for government has has often made the case that one of the benefits of devolution is or at least should be that it creates this laboratory for experimentation and testing out
Different um different ways to to solve common problems but you then do need to have the framework and um systems in place perhaps to to to learn from those experiments and and share the lesson so does that exist at the moment I suppose is the question sure um well I’ll come
To I will come to that question but there’s actually a link between the two questions that um that we’re we’re asking because one of the main reasons that um the department of vent security and Net Zero have given for not wanting to devolve retrofit in particular and
Other Net Zero funds is that there is no proof that local authorities or combined authorities can do it better and it’s one of those impossible conundrums that we’re in um because the reason there is no proof is because they’ve never tried it and this is why the um retrofit pilot
As it’s being described as part of the Devolution deal is actually part of the wider single settlement the block grant funding that’s going to come to Greater Manchester and to the West Midlands uh at the next spending review is why it’s it’s described very much as a pilot is
In order to explore and experiment and to demonstrate that this kind of neighborhood based approach or other approaches to retrofit will um be more effective than the the centralized approach that we’ve got um at the moment so the onus is always on combined authorities to prove that we can do
Things better um and Janine then is right to be asking so how is that information shared and how does that work um I’ll be fairly Frank here I think that uh we could do a lot better I think that um the M10 as it’s known the the the the the network of meril
Combined authorities of which there are now far more than 10 um do their best to share information uh and to share progress and there is a a network of um those working on Net Zero within the combined authorities that meet on a regular basis government has set up
Something called the local Net Zero Forum um which is uh largely a process by which uh government civil servants try to manage us all uh so there’s not too much information sharing there but um uh instead what we’re doing is saying look we can prove to you that we can do
Things differently and do things better if You’ devolve more through that Forum um as well and I think it’s also worth just flagging that some of the think tanks uh including Institute for government are doing really good work as well to try to uh get us to share some
Of the work that we’re doing in Combined authorities and that can be made accessible even a session like today I hope uh to some extent is addressing uh some of the concerns that Janine uh Janine Flags might just make one more comment going back to the previous
Question about sort of blockages one of the key things things that keeps getting raised in this space by national government is that they have legally binding targets therefore they cannot trust anybody or pass them on at all and this is I think symptomatic of um a kind
Of wider problem we’ve got with the way in which government is constructed in in the UK which is this sense that ministers have to be held responsible for every fine last detail of whether a particular house gets retrofitted or not etc etc uh and it’s a sort of immature
Form of national governance and really we know we need to be able to find ways and we have said as West Midlands combined Authority we would be happy to take on some of those legally B legally binding targets we are prepared to work within a a carbon budget if there is a
Quid proquo that then we have greater means to set policy for ourselves and the funding to deliver it so I do think there is a different way of doing this alog together um but it is it requires central government to get over it’s kind of Highly centralized ministerial
Responsibility kind of focus at the moment uh is is so inhibiting yeah thanks and and and that that can be a bit of a a vicious circle Quant it that um that that that sense of we are responsible therefore we can’t devolve and therefore we must um yeah um
Hold ourselves respons keep ourselves responsible for for these things um okay so uh question for For You Joe um so John baren uh has put in the chat um the following so he says that you you mentioned Joanna mentioned that Agriculture and land use are poorly dealt with in the overall government
Plan um and he maybe quite rightly notes we haven’t spoken so much about this on this panel perhaps because we don’t have representatives of of rural areas um around the table so to speak today so I just wondered if you wanted to say a bit
More about um about that aspect of of of the climate agenda and um well what what does need to happen and and and and and also that balance between central and local roles if you have thoughts on that yes so um in I’m a climate physicist I’m not an expert on
Agriculture I brought that up because that’s one of the things that the climate change committee said was particularly lacking in terms of um planning um but I’m aware there’s a lot of work going on in trying to reduce carbon emissions from agricultural practices um particularly from um
Farming of meat beef and lamb in in terms of how to reduce emissions from that how to reduce emissions from particular plants so uh rice Patty Fields give off a lot of methane for example and there’s research going on into that um and also um the whole
Transport thing how you can use uh local produce and not um be moving it around all over the country by particular by fossil fuel driven vehicles of course so there’s a lot of work going on um and it just requires some people to take notice great um Okay so we’ve got about
Five more minutes left so I’m Keen to put another couple of questions um to the panel um I mean there’s one question I think Ed has responded in the chat but others won’t have seen it about um SC and Wales which have substantially more um devolved Powers than than any of
England cities and regions and certainly have greater uh certainty over funding and so on I mean does does anyone on the panel have uh Reflections on what that has enabled those devolved governments to do that that maybe parts of England are not currently able to do so much
Shirley I think I saw you nodding there do you want to pick that question up yeah there’s you know there are loads loads of examples I think but probably one um I pick up on is on uh Recycling and and waste management and the move to the circular economy so you know we’ve
Had another delay to the the government’s reforms in England for Waste Management um there’s yet another consultation which means that so for example in London you know we have 33 different um collection and recycling um approaches which the mayor through the limited powers we have have been trying
To encourage um uh a move to to to some standardization of policies that people moving from one borrow to another in London can expect to always get um a certain level of recycling and these things will be recycled but yet they’re still different um in in in the uh in
Wales they have been able to go ahead and set policies which has really driven up their recycling rate so whilst everywhere in in the country um certainly in England you know our our recycling rate has been flatlining for many years is just holding its own whereas I think the rest of England’s
Recycling rate has been falling um theirs has been increasing and you know they are already focused on on um the sector economy so again whilst we are pushing ahead and doing what we can do within London we have a an agency with with the bars called re London that does
A lot of work in this area trying to sort of set out best practice guidance and and Communications campaigns to to try and promote some some greater action on this without that again that Devolution um you can’t really understand what’s needed in in your uh region and then push ahead um and I
Think you know there are a lot of things that we’ve lost over the years you know in in planning terms for example we there used to be um a Southeast Regional planning Authority so we would work very closely with our planning authorities around London so that there would be um
Some collaboration coordination on on action that uh uh that was um um dissolved so you know that that doesn’t exist anymore so there sort of there isn’t really a venue to do some of those things so um so yeah absolutely um I think we’d love love some of those those Powers I
Think okay um great I think uh yeah time for maybe one or maximum two more questions so so Rosa here’s a question I was going to put to you so Robert Morland has asked whether local Authority could be doing much more to encourage residents to take action towards net
Zero and I suppose that’s the the way I was going to ask a similar question that I think we were chatting about in the office the other day um was whether local leaders whether it’s Mayors or Council leaders are typically better placed to to build consent and to engage
Citizens in in for for making the changes that might need to be made um so I wonder what your thoughts are on that including what the UK might be able to learn from other places which I know is something you’ve looked at as well in
Terms of I I think I might put it differently rather than encouraging residents to take action I might try to think of it more in terms of helping residents to take action so I know that one thing that we’ve seen looking at other what other countries are doing um
And I think here greater Manchester has has piloted it as well as having a one on stop shop so kind of one place online that residents in an area can go to find out information about retrofitting um find trusted suppliers to kind of not necessarily encourage it but particularly facilitate that so try
And make it as easy as possible for local residents to take action so if you can afford to retrofit your home making it as easy as possible for you to do that and giving you the assurance that you’re not going to get a cowboy Builder who does it terribly and I think that
Local leaders are potentially kind of in a better place to do that than central government because you can kind of build up that trust locally with residents um and you’re potentially in closer contact and so I think there is definitely scope to kind of facilitate that helping people to
Make actions as well as encouraging them to but particularly making it easier I think is the kind of key thing there okay great well there’s absolutely loads more we we could uh talk about I know there’s a number of really interesting questions we’ve not been
Able to get on to apologies for that but the institute for government will be continuing to uh follow research and hopefully hold more events on this topic and wider both Devolution and Net Zero uh debates over over the coming years so so please do join us again um just
Remains for me to say thank you very much to our excellent panel for for all their insights and for taking the time to join us thank you to everyone for watching and thank you in particular to the Royal Society who uh made this event possible um and uh yeah that’s all from
From us here at the institute for government goodbye