The National Churches Trust has published a manifesto calling for urgent action to save the UK’s church buildings. ‘Every Church Counts’ sets out a six-point plan to support volunteers, make more use of church buildings for the community, achieve annual government funding of £50 million for maintenance and repairs, work with tourism organisations to make more of their heritage, keep them open for the community outside worship times, and collect the information and data on church buildings and their role.
In this Religion Media Centre briefing, the panel discusses the current situation where churches are forced to close. They explore the options for keeping them maintained, functioning and open as assets in their communities. Chaired by Rosie Dawson, our panel is:
-Sir Philip Rutnam, chair of the National Churches Trust
-Claire Walker, Chief Executive of the National Churches Trust
-Bishop Vivienne Faull, one of two lead bishops for church and cathedral buildings
-Emily Gee, Director for Cathedral and Church Buildings for the Church of England
-Rev Scott Rennie, the Vice-Chair of the General Trustees Church of Scotland
-Alex Glanville, Head of Property Services Church in Wales
-Sophie Andreae, Vice-chair of the Patrimony Committee of the Catholic Bishops Conference
For more information on RMC briefings: info@religionmediacentre.org.uk
Well good afternoon everyone um today’s briefing is marking the launch of the national Church’s trust report every Church counts a plan to save UK’s Church buildings um the NCT was founded in 1953 and it distributes grants for maintenance of church buildings at risk and campaigns for their preservation and
There one of a number of organizations concerned with the Heritage um and future of our church buildings and so we’re going to look at that report and some of the wider questions that it raises about Our Heritage the role that church is play in society the relation
Of church to governments money and money um do please all join in the conversation put questions and comments in the chat box raise your hand we have a panel who I’m going to ask for a fairly brief comments and observations and then if we can open up to more
Interactive discussion panelist and all those present then that would be great um if you don’t mind panel I will introduce you as I go along and um I’m going to start with sir philli rutnam who’s the chair of the national Church’s trust um thank you very much for joining
Us sir Phillip um you took over as chair of this trust I think about 15 months ago um Tell Me What You observe of the scene during this first 15 months about you know the challenges that are facing Us in terms of church buildings so there are huge challenges actually before I
Get to the challenge I want to say something that’s incredibly you know positive which is one of the things I see as I go across the country meeting people who are looking after church buildings and using Church buildings is what a fantastic asset they are and what fantastic loyalty they have every week
Literally hundreds of thousands of volunteers get out of bed to look after these buildings and the things that happen inside them and I’ve seen just wonderful examples of ordinary people in all sorts of places going the proverbial extra mile to make these buildings sing in a sense of looking you know caring for
Their communities and caring for the Heritage the challenge though is enormous because of all of that effort all these buildings half nearly half the country’s most important historic buildings and all the community and activities that take place inside and worship of course too rests ultimately on the shoulders of volunteers we’ve got
This amazing way in which we organize fund and run um Church activity in this country church and Chapel activity across all parts of the United Kingdom which is fundamentally about depending on volunteers and that’s fantastic it creates that local loyalty that local sense of ownership and participation
That I’ve been talking about but when the buildings run into serious trouble when the ston workor starts crumbling the roof starts giving way there’s a major issue with dry rot or the the gutters simply need to be upgraded because the rainfall with climate change is getting heavier and heavier and more
Intense and the drainage is creat problems when building these buildings run into those sorts of problems often the local communities get overwhelmed by it been closed as a result so quick question what support does the government give for the upkeeping upkeep of church buildings and um let’s compare
It to France if we may so um the support is I mean there is some support from from the state which is very welcome so two main forms of that one is that um when churches church under other PL listed places of worship important it’s only the listed ones are under taking
Repairs and maintenance they can they they need to pay the vat on repairs on new stone work whatever it is but they can reclaim the vat so there is effectively a system of tax refunds for the vat only the vat not other taxes like insurance tax a system of vat
Refunds for listed places of worship which is valuable um that goes back to when the government the about 20 years ago then government extended that to building repairs and so on and there was a system of refunds put in place that’s actually the Main Financial form of support So
Effectively the church has got to pay for the stonework the building workers the surveys The Architects all of that but the the tax cost the vat cost gets refunded the other type of support is from the lottery the national um Lottery uh Heritage fund and the the obviously
Churches and chapels do apply to the lottery for funding for projects it’s however a very competitive process um and in the last year that we have figures for the total amount of funding from the lottery for churches and Chapel across the UK was about1 Million pounds
Which to be honest given the scale of the the scale of the financial challenge is a is a fairly modest sum right I want to um refer people to um a tweet from church times is mine Davis she said um she’s been um reading around this and
What stuck out for her was that the public tends not to be aware that the upkeep of churches is the local responsibility of that church um and it assumes that the government or the Central Church are are are responsible and also that state funding is far less than in other countries which will
Surprise people because I think people assume that you know particularly as regards the Church of England it’s a it’s an established church and that um you know the the government would therefore be picking up the bill Well mine’s absolutely right I think there is a general assumption that these
Buildings because they’re so important so prominent so part of our history and Community are paid for by taxpayers but they’re not they’re paid for by local people and you mentioned France and actually it’s an interesting comparison because even though France of course is a very secular state secular-minded
State actually all these buildings in France almost all the buildings in France the cathedrals the parish churches the equivalent are all actually control owned by uh government by national government in the case of cathedrals um and local government in the case of Parish churches and equ and they’re responsible the communes the
National government are responsible for their upkeep now you were in the treasurer formerly so you’re used to number crunching and I think why you were there you were involved in a assessment which suggested that the social value to the community provided by Churches was 55 billion pound 55
Billion pounds over what period of time yeah it wasn’t actually while I was in the treasury I think that would have been a bit of a conflict of interest but now I’m out of the treasury I can I’m unrestrained in being able to speak about these things so yes the actually
The NCT did an important bit of we had a bit of independent economic analysis done for us which importantly was done in a way consistent with how the treasury goes about trying to assess the economic and social value of activities there’s something called the green book
Which is the sort of you know the the textbook way of doing and this is a greenbook compliant analysis and it it EST it established that the value to the country the economic and social value to the country of what happens inside Church buildings the food banks the um
Uh M and toddler groups the Community Support not not so much the worship but all the social activity taking place in these buildings is worth roughly 55 billion pounds every year and actually I would say that is a small C conservative number it’s a low number because for
Example it doesn’t attribute any value to the Heritage itself we and yet people do value they do value the fact these are fantastically beautiful buildings moving places to be all of those things it doesn’t also account for all lots of other things lots of other value that comes is connected to church buildings
If you if you’re part of if we all know that if you’re in a social group if you you know go to a mom and toddler group if you go to an old age person’s lunch or something like that helps to reduce loneliness makes you feel included and
There wasn’t any value for that either so 55 billion every year and I suppose I mean a lot of those services are provided in buildings which aren’t necessarily listed and which are going to not be eligible for for some of the um the grants um you’ve got a six-point
Plan I just want to talk very briefly about one of them um50 million pound a year of Public Funding is what you want annually ring fenced for churches from the government um is the government listening you know obviously any um any proposal that involves public spending
Is is is difficult in this climate but I would say first of all the plan our plan is not just about money it’s really important to recognize that there are some other things which don’t cost any money which we also need to talk about which are about um bringing people
Together about all those sorts of things on the money Point um uh I think government recognizes that this is a really really important issue this is the biggest challenge facing the country’s Heritage of I would say of any kind by a huge margin that we have 20,000 listed places of wor listed
Churches and Chapel across the UK all cared for as I’ve said been saying by local people um we have um uh an enormous it’s not just about Heritage though it’s also about community community presence the electronic role they place in play in the Landscapes so I think government does recognize that
This is a really important issue money is difficult but I would say really importantly public money spent in this direction we’re talking okay it’s a 50 million pounds is a material amount but relative to the scale of impact this is a bargain it’s a complete bargain if we can if by
Supporting this amazing network of buildings and voluntary activity we can just reduce the pressure on the NHS on Mental Health Services on social Care by just a fraction of 1% It would pay itself over many many many times and we need to be thinking more as a society
About prevention and not just dealing with emergencies thank you very much well if we could go to Clare Walker who’s the um CEO of the National Church of trust just on a couple of the other points that um are in plan here um one of them is um again another action from
Government to um help put churches on the tourism map um are churches under visited they could be better visited I I think CH we know that churches um that are open attract more people we know that people love to visit churches we think you know they hold the the DNA if
You like of the whole you UK encapsulated in these buildings and make much more of them from a tourism angle I think uh visitors to the to the UK tend to go to the main Westminster Abbey yorkminster and so on but all of these churches have something to offer and
They have so much that people like to see and witness and the craftsmanship the stained glass and everything um that people find so valuable that people but people do naturally go and visit churches when they go on a walk or they go on a holiday but if if more was made
Of that more emphasis on doing that how to do it Which churches to see I mean there are pieces of work that have been done but just more emphasis on that we think would be fantastic and really help to Champion these wonderful buildings and of course you want churches to be
Open um that depends on volunteers and they’re very hard to find in some places I mean you know a lot of people are very overworked trying to keep their Church open I mean how how are you going to support or encourage churches to recruit and support volunteers well yeah that’s
A good question as well and and also I think we’re not the only sort of type of Charity or type of organization that needs volunteers and this the the UK runs on Volunteers in my view um but uh the we do have support officers that uh
Uh several of them are now funded by the lottery we have four and with more support officers that’s one way of helping to enable volunteers help them to see what to do help them help to give them the ideas and and the sort of the
Permission if you like to to do the work and encouragement that they need um but we need to um just recognize that you can open a building but you don’t have to stay there necessarily all the time you obviously it has to be unlocked um but the the official Insurance line is that
It’s actually safer to open a building than to leave it locked up anyway and it doesn’t do you know it doesn’t follow that if you open a building that you will get nasty robbery and or anything awful happening necessarily uh so it’s just really to Champion volunteers we we
Want we’re asking for more support for the volunteers more recognition more support and we also know that if you are a volunteer that has a great impact on your own well-being the your mental health it combats loneliness it gives people a purpose Philip already said thousands of people get up every morning
To do this and and it’s so valuable it’s valuable for the volunteer and for the people on the other end of of what they’re doing but these volunteers are also with their clergy responsible for the upkeep of these buildings and you know fundraising is a difficult job um
And a skilled job so I mean it’s not it’s not just having volunteers available to sort of um staff the staff the space is it it’s about really understanding where they can get money from it is and I mean we offer training we do train uh volunteers and we train
On all aspects of looking after a church building so whether that’s maintenance whether that’s how to fund raise whether that’s how to better signpost people to your church and all manner of things how to run your church more effectively I suppose um yes fundraising specialized
But um in a way uh it’s it’s also it’s also quite simple as well that people need to be asked for money and they need to be thanked so it’s not it’s in a basic level that’s what it is but again training people and giving them some
Ideas and giving them um some in motivation if you like for that does does help yeah one more question if I may about um asking local authorities to make more use of church Halls because they might help unra upgrade the facilities as well as sort of just
Increase the usage of it yeah um not everyone sees churches as an inclusive space I mean do you think there’s some sort of resistance perhaps among some local Authority people about um encouraging the use of church buildings oh I guess there probably would be from some local authorities uh but um again
With more sort of Education in terms of publicity and awareness and explaining that ought to be um easy enough to overcome and when we know from the polls that we do that there’s always a high percentage of people who value the buildings you it’s around the 60 to 70%
Mark always or more uh people of all faiths and none recognize that these are great buildings and can be used effectively for other things we know loads of examples of churches that are used by people of all faiths and none um for various services that they offer and
So on so so that ought to be able to be overcome they’re an obvious place to to offer stuff interesting I saw a story from Rochdale um where the council has shelled out for rescuing a historic church I think it’s United Reformed Church but there were there were people
Who hit back against that because they felt that it might put existing venues out of business like the local boxing club I think it was and another place so I mean it’s sort of you know there are there are sort of other players in the field who might think um that church
Buildings are being saved at their expense but um I want to move on if I may um quickly to Emily G because I know she can’t be on the call for very long um she’s the director for Cathedral and church buildings for the Church of England and sits within the church
Commissioners um Emily can you just give us a picture of the number of Church of England closures I know there are in the 70s what what’s what’s been happening over the last 20 years what’s your projected figure for the next 10 or so thanks Rosie um and it’s Pats worth
Saying that obviously with the church fdom we really support and welcome this National Church’s trust report I think it’s an extraordinary piece of work and really aligns with a lot of the work we’re doing in this wonderful kind of collaborative landscape at the moment it does the report does refer to church
Closures and that’s a really important factor obviously um just to stress really of course the report looks UK wide and across all denominations so just to think from the Anglican Church perspective and of course you know sometimes churches due close but happily the truth is that the number of closes
Is the lowest it’s been for for 50 years and we’re starting new worshiping communities all the time um looking at the last 10 years last decade or so there’ve been about 200 Church closures Church England closures um around sort of 20 25 a year since 2010 and that’s
Remembering of course that there are you know 16,000 Church of England churches around the they fairly well evenly distributed across the country or have you got sort of pockets where you have more yeah it’s a good question there there is a there’s a certainly are certain areas where there’s a particular
Um there’ve been higher numbers but it’s something that I think we useful to it’s part of our work in this area is thinking about how we can support churches is reflecting on just that and seeing where where there are indicators of a church that might be potentially on
A route to closure what we called struggling that where we can actually come in and support working either with that church or indeed with the dasis if it is slightly more of a pocket and really focus on the work that we can do do to help together keep churches
Sustainable to the Future so our building submission program for example and our struggling churches program is is bringing in lots of special care and support to help just in those scenarios so we can divert churches away and give them the kind of support and sustainability they need to get through
That tricky period and and remain alive for worship and Community use into the future I know that I think the recent appointment of some sort of church support offices for certainly for certain dases wasn’t there to help um help congregations think about how they maintain their Fabric and so on I think
We’ll probably come back to um this later I see a comment in the in the chat box we might come back to that later but I mean one of the challenges that the Church of England has set itself is to uh set a net zero Target for carbon emissions for
2030 what what added pressures does that put on churches well I think it’s something obviously we’re very aware as a as a nation and and a world of course the primate the issues here in climate um climate change and the impact that is has storic buildings and Philip made
Made that point really eloquently in the beginning about the extra pressure that puts on buildings in terms of you know pressure on gutters and things but we are very committed as a church to Net Zero by 2030 that’s the target we have for all our buildings across the state
Estate and there’s a really um strong investment from the church Commissioners in this area 190 million pounds think about how we can support churches dases and parishes to get to Net Zero 2030 um and lots of this is providing advice and guidance um there’s a lot of support to
Think about how we can practically do that there ly a new area it’s a developing areas of expertise so we’re sharing a lot of guidance that obviously with our own churches and Cathedrals but also that we hope can be really applicable to other other Faith buildings and indeed Heritage buildings
More widely so we’re trying to demonstrate leadership in this area to really support with advice and guidance um and also providing demonstrator churches so that pretty soon um through some investment everywhere in the country someone will be near a church which has achieved n zero status and can
Come and see the practically on the ground what that looks like and it’s worth flagging really that of the 16,000 churches there’s a real range of of carbon usage um in the existing buildings so some can quite quickly get to that place so I appreciate it it does
Add an extra level of something to think about for the extraordinary dedicated volunteers and clergy who look after these buildings but actually we can quite quickly get there with some buildings and those that need some extra support we’re here and ready and able to provide that with funding and support
And and leveraging other funding as well because we see this as a collective issue thank you so much um Emily um I want to leave England for a bit um come back later but I want to go to Reverend Scott reny who’s the vice chair of the general trustees Church of Scotland and
Um you’re in the middle of a quite a storm at the moment aren’t you um Scott with um the program of closures that um the Church of Scotland is undergoing can you put some numbers on that for us and tell us the reasons why well I think the
First thing I’d want to see is that when it comes to rationalization of buildings and we have a particular history in Scotland in terms of denominationalism which means that we’ve always had really a surfer buildings but in terms of the process it’s it’s regionally driven by the Presby and I
Would say we’re probably at the end of the day looking I think we’ll lose about 20 to 30% of buildings but I don’t have an exact figure because there are some buildings which will go but there are a number of which there are question marks and uh where decisions haven’t quite
Been taken but there’s also quite a determined policy that after we have released buildings that we can no longer either afford financially or look after because we don’t have the Personnel on the ground to look after them uh there’s a determination that we will reinvest in
The buildings we keep uh both uh in in the way that em G was talking about in order to help them be sustainable for the future economically sustainable uh try and help with Net Zero these kind of things so but but at the moment in the
Cycle we’re very much I suppose at the the the releasing buildings from uh Church ownership and it’s a pretty painful experience I would say yeah I’m sure it is and the figures I see range between sort of 350 and 700 which you know even at the lower end is is is an
Awful lot isn’t it but it’s interesting the historic reasons for that is basically the the divorce and remarriage of um denominations isn’t it um I I just wonder um whether what you’d say to a criticism that might say you’re focusing on Mission but there’s an at the expense of Heritage I can understand
That criticism but in a sense you know the building issue is not simply about whether there are funds AA available to maintain and restore buildings I mean I think first of all we have to put our hands up and say we have too many buildings that have not been well looked
After over the decades and very often congregations have thought first and foremost about the bill for salaries and Staffing in their parishes and then when there’s any money left thought about uh what they can spend in their building and we are reaping the legacy of that so
So as is suggested by the national churches trust in terms of uh churches equipping volunteers at a local level with expertise they need we are in the process have been now for a few years of rolling out presy buildings officers generally project surveyors who have the expertise that congregations need to
Give good advice uh and that’s that’s start to make a big impact on the estate of our buildings as a whole the I think the fundamental problem here is we recognize that our buildings and these Heritage buildings provide a social and Community good beyond their narrow religious missional
Purpose but we we need more recogn we need more recognition of that from the state from the devolved administrations and we need to work in a new partnership with these evolved administrations and with the westmin government and with the Heritage bodies across the United Kingdom right can I
Can it’s a partner approach that’s going to be required to solve this problem so are you saying there’s something um about I mean I mean the the flavor or the nature of the Holly Roode government which perhaps isn’t as sympathetic as you would like it to be towards the
Maintenance of these buildings I wouldn’t go as far as to say that I think what I would say is that uh the political culture in Scotland because of the historic settlement between church and state I for example the Church of Scotland is a national church and it does have rights and privileges in
Scotland that H other denominations don’t have but it’s not an established church and I think because of that and because of Scotland’s you know history of sectarianism over the years I think the political landscape is careful not to be too close to denominations and to be fair the church has always of
Protected its independence from interference by the state and I think that uh I feel that’s fed into culture across the board not just with politicians but with the churches too in which I don’t think we’ve been as good as we might have been at forging Partnerships together recognizing these
The value of these buildings and what they bring to the community as all really interesting um thank you so much um Alex Glenville we go to the head of Property Services for the church in Wales that’s the Anglican Church in Wales before we talk in particular about
Um the Anglican Church in Wales I just wonder about the overall landscape in Wales if I’m spending my summer doing a a Church’s walking tour in Wales um what what do I see B good morning um I think we good afternoon now but uh what do you see if
You come to Wales well I think if you head out into our hills and mountains and into rural places you will find a amazing array of thin places places of immense charm immense history uh places of worship we call thin because they’re very very close to heaven but of course
Wales is very close to heaven so we know about that what do I see in terms of church closures okay well 10 years ago the church in Wales was operating 1,400 Church buildings uh we are now down to 1250 so that’s 150 closures in the last
Decade so you can immediately see what a dramatic change that has been in the last decade and I don’t see any particular evidence that that is going to change over the next decade it might even get a bit worse yet um I think it’s worth saying that every one of those
Closures nobody’s happy about that there is pain at every single step of the way in that process there’s pain for the local people that have cared for that place that are having to make that very difficult decision there’s pain for uh diis and the the clergy and the Bishops
No Bishop in the church in Wales likes closing churches um I’m sure it’s the same in any denomination so in all of this uh that those closures come about after an enormous amount of pain but also after an enormous amount of effort to try and keep things going and I think
We’re we’re reaching that point where years and years of amazing dedication by people and it’s just one of the things that the NCT report makes clear is in the amazing dedication by people over such a long time it runs out and that is just a deeply sad thing and so anything
That can be done to to to help has got to be right you’re at the the center of all this but you are engaging with with the decision to take the closure is very much made at a local level um isn’t it I mean and what are the factors that mean
That people just say yeah we’ve got to close this is it is it that there are not enough people to help keep it open is it that the the building isn’t listed and so isn’t available for some some grants I mean what what is it that that
Just is the death nil in the end I think it’s all of those things it you can’t say it’s uh any one thing at any one time but invariably it’s to do with there are simply not enough people attending that particular building um to sustain it to just look after it to do
The jobs that need doing let alone raise the money to do the things that need to be done that’s one factor some sometimes that’s been going on for an extended period of time and therefore the building has reached a point where it needs a massive amount of work and
That’s where there is a the lack of funding or the difficulty in raising the funds to do significant Works to these listed buildings comes in so that can become a major factor and for a lot of our rural places we’re talking about tiny populations um so you know the
Expectation that somehow or other a small population in a rural area should somehow other be able to maintain uh a grade two star or grade one listed building is is just kind of fanciful really I know you’re not the Church of England you are the church in
Wales which is very very different but do you have to struggle with a public perception that you’ve got lots of money and um you should be able to sort it without having to you know call on local people I think we I haven’t seen I haven’t seen the survey work but it was
Mentioned earlier wasn’t it but I think that’s absolutely true in Wales too there is a perception I’m sure that the church is Rich it it’s all dealt with by the state um somehow or other uh this isn’t I I don’t think people are the public are aware that and it’s not
Just church and Wales buildings all places of worship whichever denomination if you’re not a non-conformist chapel you’re doing exactly the same thing your local people raising the money planning the work doing everything that has to be done to keep this place going and uh yeah I’m sure the average person if it
Would would say no they’ be surprised at that’s the situation thank you um Sophie Andre um you’re the vice chair of the patrimony committee for the Catholic Bishop’s Conference of England and Wales and you’re also co-chair of the historic England’s places of worship Forum um I was I was really interested in our
Briefing conversation you andit just uh hear what a different position the Catholic church is in just tell me first of first of all I mean both sort of ecclesi ecclesiological and um with regard to buildings let’s do the buildings first I mean your buildings are generally newer
Um less likely to be listed tell tell me about them yes of course well thank you very much and first of all I just say how much we very much welcome the national churches trust’s um report I mean really making some very very important and Powerful points um so the
Catholic church is in this country is a bit different um in that it wasn’t until 1791 that um uh Catholic places of worship under law were allowed to be built public places of worship and not until 1829 that there was full Catholic emancipation so the buildings are largely a building stock of churches
Which are either 19th century or indeed 20th century and in fact there are more 20th century Catholic churches in England and Wales than there are 19th cental and statistic that some people find surprising um and because of the more recent date and very often because Catholic churches um unlike their
Medieval counterparts are not necessarily in centers of villages and town often downside streets in in sort of secondary locations over the years they’ve been perhaps um rather missed and and and certainly you know the pbna volumes on the buildings of England tended tended not to um report on on on
Catholic churches and when they did they tended to be fairly critical about them um in various ways so we’ve been working very hard recently um in with historic England in England and also withu in Wales to do a review of all Catholic churches in England and Wales there’s a
Program called taking stock and you can now look up any cic on the taking stock website and find out a bit about its history and this has actually led to an enormous raft increase in numbers of um um of listed churches which we actually very much welcome because it’s
Identifying the importance of these buildings at last and of course this is on stri through to the modern period um so we’ve seen a significant increase in the number of listed postwar churches so we have big Victorian churches very often in inner city areas very very
Often very um um very um deprived areas find it very difficult to raise the money these are kind of churches that you know built well built in the Victorian perod but now in need of major capital investment in roofs and so forth and then the more recent buildings postp buildings often built very
Experimentally and these reached the sort of same point so so there is a really urgent need for funding for Capital repairs which is way beyond what the local congregations can meet so there’s a huge issue one of the problems we might say you have is that because of
The way you use your church buildings or because of the way you you don’t use them perhaps um you don’t meet some of the criteria for lottery grants on sort of say say public engagement can you just sort of talk just briefly about the sort of the Theology of space which
Means that you’re not going to do certain activities in church what will you do what won’t you do and what are the reasons for that okay that’s a really really good question question so um in the Catholic Church an entire church is regarded as the Sacred Space
And that’s because of the presence of the Blessed Sacrament so um it is against canon law and there’s no getting around that that Catholic churches can’t be used for the sort of um secular activities that these days um many Anglican churches are used not being used for worship um so for example take
Cathedrals between Hilter Skelter and crazy Golf and um Ms and toddlers groups well no so I was just mentioning those but but no really any any group or any activity within a church that’s that’s that’s not um uh around um um the mass and so forth is really not possible
Inside the body of clearly it’s perfectly possible in Halls and other in other buildings that that’s that’s really the issue so where there’s an emphasis for example in some grants criteria to provide activities within a church um that that does present a big problem for Catholics on the other hand
And it’s point that um we’ve been making consistently and it’s really good be beginning to see this being taken on board is the churches um of of of all denominations provide a a quiet space a place for reflection for people of Faith people of no faith um and if you go to a
Catholic Church you’ll very often see you know that we people just in there sitting quietly and actually that provision of that kind of space we feel is incredibly important for well-being so it’s not about activities don’t all have to be really active in a sense are you are you having to close churches
Because you just can’t keep the issue around closure yes is real and and and it’s it’s particularly driven um by a number of factors and it’s it’s um um reduction numbers of people get to mass it’s population shift very often from City centers big Irish populations
In the 19th century and and those shifts in population shortage of priests so there is so there is um um many dases are are rationalizing but the taking stock report which I say identified historic and Architectural interest has been an absolutely key pool in this so that in making those decisions Heritage
Can be factored in thank you very much indeed um Bishop Vivian fall Bishop of Bristol and one of the two lead um Church of England Bishops for church and Cathedral buildings um look um Sophie um mentioned the H to scal so I’m not going
To pass that one by but um I mean as with the cathedrals I want to say the cathedrals are the easy bit in a way I mean they’re not but um you know there’s Eden’s song the number were up for worshippers at at Christmas um everyone
Can see the value I think of a cathedral in in a space um just on the diversification of the use of cathedrals if you had unlimited money would you still want to have the silent discos in your Cathedrals and why I don’t want to take any specific example but yes because they Cathedrals
Have their pulling power to but it credly um what we have experienced over recent years with changing cultures is that the psychological spiritual barriers of getting people Across the Threshold have grown yeah and so that um the reason that most Cathedrals are doing this sort of thing
Is to enable the community to reclaim their Cathedral um and um sometimes it’s there’s a long history of people feeling um pushed out of their Cathedral going back to the 19th century where Chester Cathedral first start started charging and then rich people could come in so there are social barriers there are um
Religious barriers um and and so forth and that’s what these Enterprises are about and therefore yes itals and actually if you can get a child on a Helter scal to in a cathedral Nave and they look up and they say to they come down they say Miss I saw a naughty
Picture up there you know some they they’ll they might go in again and they’ll see the the cathedral as play for them um I I I guess um entrance charges is a is a whole other issue as well but as a diois bishop um I mean you
Came in 2018 and but Bristol hasn’t actually closed a church I’m told since 2015 it’s actually reopened one how how is it managed that is that uh strategy policy is it because that you’re richer than some other dases um how how’s it happened we’re certainly not a a rich a
Wealthy dasis we’re a middling sort of dasis um we have taken a strategic decision that because of an increasing population and also because of what we believe our churches are as uh faith and Community assets um we want to continue to invest in them so we are now um
Investing in all our church buildings whether listed or not and particularly in terms of Net Zero um and we are um uh investing from reserves to do that we are probably fortunate in the that we lost quite a lot of should we say less distinguished Church buildings during
The second World War uh and that allowed a strategic view to be taken about what churches were needed for um community life during the 50s and 60s um but we’ve also um got the The Treasure of the volunteers at the moment who are absolutely committed to keeping their
Places open and so the one building we did consider closing of because it was unsafe when we said we want to explore closing this building there was an immediate community and much wider National reaction that’s resulted in that church being rebuilt I mean on sort of wider church chy I mean I think
Somebody’s mentioned in the chat box there’s a church action on poverty report last year which said you know you’re far more likely to get Church closes I mean across all denominations but this is also true of the church England in in po dases um and uh I mean there is the the example
Of Wigan where we’ve got proposal clothes of many churches um I mean what is is there an overall Church widom strategy which should because which isn’t just about the decisions being made at local diois level um is is there anyone at the top of the church who can
Say to a dasis no names mentioned you can’t close that many you know or and maybe even will help you out indeed there should be and we’re working on one um and we then has have uh to make sure that there are the resources to enable a
Dasis like Liverpool which is one of our most cast strapped to be able to put that in place again taking a strategic view um so I agree Rosie with with what you’re saying that there should be a national strategy for the Church of England I can’t speak for other churches
Obviously and you’re working on it and we can watch the space H please do thank you that’s very that’s very encouraging um now um I just wonder whether there are people on the call panelists and others who want to um jump in here with a question with a comment there’s been a
Lot of um chat in the box so in the chat there were some fantastic suggestions for things we could do to encourage more visitors um somebody was suggesting uh Leicester for example would be a great tourism opportunity just to do tours of different Faith centers in Leicester
Gwara Cathedral etc etc I just wanted to call out you know it’s only part of this story but ways of encouraging new and fresh angles of thinking about this amazing religious Heritage and encouraging wider range of people to to visit it see it think about it thank you
Um I mean one of the questions I suppose is you know whether we’re just King Cano holding back the tide um you know the volunteers that that have the time are are older people haven’t grown up in the churches in the way that um the older
Generations have I mean how are we going to sort of future proof um the churches in terms of people I’m I’m not sure we can future proof because we can’t predict um the development of culture and Society um but at the very least if we can make the task of our volunteers
Slightly less onerous uh or a lot less owners um by helping with financial resource but also knowhow because certainly with the church of England there are so many administrative and legal hurdles that have to be um jumped in order to restore um a listed building uh and uh we need much more investment
In in that as well as in the buildings themselves so investment in people in our volunteers years which we they’ve been taken for granted so not surprisingly it looks as if the future could be uh could be Bleak but I just wonder if we managed to provide much
More support and knowhow whether this could become once again more attractive not necessarily church goers but the whole Community to get behind the the continued development of their Church space there’s a question from Tony um gooder um on the chat I don’t know if Tony um you’re available to speak a little
Bit more to this but I kind of rate at the beginning with CLA walk about whether the shifting demograph Graphics impact on support for the churches you know the first mosque in the UK is trying to raise money at the moment and you know we’re getting a new Heritage of
New Faith buildings that are going to need their support and I just wonder what that means for raising money from um local populations but but also yes a sense of um it it it’s a different society that we’re living in we are in a different Society for sure um I I think
I mean the question about volunteers and and where they’re going to come from and enabling them I mean I think there is an opportunity to get younger people working age people involved in volunteering there are a lot of companies large and small do corporate social responsibility and with the right
Way of contacting them um could offer to uh work out of ways where they could support Church buildings um and younger people whether they are um they might describe themselves as as not having a faith but I think they’re interested in well-being and uh you know with the
Mental Health crisis going on that’s an angle which you know they will that they I think they will want to use the church buildings but maybe not in the traditional ways of worship therefore these buildings are going to be very much needed and valued and if you can
Work on ways of engaging people to volunteer um you know using who they work for and and giving the right promotion to volunteering I guess um I think there’s hope we can’t do everything all all all um overnight and we can’t do it all on our own but I
Think having some of those ideas and giving examples is at least some some way go some way to solving that I mean I I think it was Alex Glanville who said to me on an earlier conversation had with him you know we don’t have a buildings problem we have a people
Problem well I guess we we sort of we have both really um don’t we um any anybody else want to come in just in the final couple of minutes I plan to end this at 5 to one um chip stol um welcome yes thank you very much
Indeed I wanted to take up Bishop viv’s point about making life easier for volunteers I’m editor of the church Warden yearbook and have been for 20 years and the amount of pressure which is now put on Church wardens is much greater than when I started and I find
That that church wardens are not coming forward to volunteer to do the job because they uh there’s just too much for them to do uh I think when I started there was probably an average of two Church wardens per church now there’s probably an average of um One Church warden for two
Churches it’s really quite a serious situation and the church wardens are very very important in preserving um the churches and without their without their work if you don’t have them coming forward you’re going to lose I mean people still want to come to church but the churches will not be maintained if
The jobs of church wardens are not made more attractive that’s my point it’s exactly for me on the button I think the church has disregarded and undervalued its volunteers and I would would like as the church to wake up to that um so you make the point very well made and I hope
CH we might have a conversation about that okay so um so Phillip um just a final word from you really I mean I just want I mean I wonder if you could do a bit of crystal ball gazing um um we may have a new government um in
The next year will will that alter um the future for church buildings um what would you like you know you you’re doing a report you’re going to be the chair for the next 10 years let’s I appoint you now um what what what is going to be
Your end of 10e report in 10 years time were things to go um completely your way and maybe were things not gosh what a question um all right let what would good look like in 10 years time whether I’m chair of the NCT or not I think good would be um first
Uh we don’t have a set of exhausted volunteers instead the talk is about celebrating the amazing volunteers we have we know that we’ve made their lives Easier by doing some of the things we talked about in this conversation some of the things in our report we have a across the country buildings that
Fundamentally are thriving and the talk is about how how many of them are thriving not about how of them are a problem we’ve turned the conversation around essentially instead of this all being about oh is it holding back are we King Cano trying to hold back the tide instead we’re talking about positive
Positive it’s positive metaphors it’s the amazing Network that is energized and supporting our society and often the most vulnerable and which is funded it’s a different sort of conversation but backed up by by Abundant evidence of effect and impact and I think that is actually all doable it’s not that we’re
Going to be every Church no church is going to close of course not but that that we have to focus on so much that this the conversation tends to be a sort of looking at a s of glass half empty conversation really we need to be thinking if we think about this problem
Differently if we think about these things as assets and enormous opportunity for good in society whichever whatever government is in power is to be honest to to the to to one side this will be about an engine for good across our society I mean it’s interesting because your reports called
Every Church counts and I and I wanted to say do you do you mean every Church um but I guess it’s the every Church counts in terms of the people that are there I guess um but um and Alison Milbank has said let’s stop seeing buildings as baggage um thank you Alison
For that so on that um I will thank you all very much indeed for taking part um we could have spoken for hours and hours and hours and and I really enjoyed um digging into this as preparation for this and learning a lot thank you all I
Hope we’ll see you all again soon and that we might be able to pick away up some of the individual elements that people have raised today um I will leave the chat open just for a little bit longer so that you can take the odd note
Or the odd uh link that you want um but for now thank you very much everybody for for joining us